Live with Tina Knowles: Lessons from a Matriarch

On this special live episode of IMO, Michelle sits down with Tina Knowles to launch her new book Matriarch. Tina goes deep on the values she learned from her childhood, how she shepherded her daughters through their iconic careers, and what she’s learned about being a mother. Learn more about Matriarch here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/729803/matriarch-oprahs-book-club-by-tina-knowles/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Michelle Obama?

  Hey everybody and welcome back to IMO. Today's episode is a little different than usual and I think you're gonna love it. Recently, I had the privilege of joining my dear friend, Ms. Tina Knowles, on the very first stop of her nine-city book tour for her new bestselling memoir, Matriarch. It's a beautiful and brave story of strong women, fierce mothering, and the power of continued evolution. It's a deeply personal reflection on where she's come from, who she's become, and what it means to build a family rooted in love and legacy. Our families have been close for years now,

• 0:52Michelle Obama?

  and I've always felt a special connection with the Knowles-Carter family. We've learned from one another and shared lots of memorable moments along the way. And as mothers of strong, brilliant daughters who've grown up in the limelight, Tina and I have had more than a few conversations about what it means to raise grounded girls in a world that doesn't always give you that space to just be. I've always admired Tina's wisdom, her grace, and that undeniable strength she carries. So, sitting down with her in Washington DC, onstage with a vibrant live audience, oh, was more than an honor.

• 1:36Michelle Obama?

  We talked about everything from her childhood in Galveston, Texas, to how she became the matriarch we all know and love today, and what it means to own your story, especially as a Black woman whose journey has inspired so many. There were lots of laughs, and since this is IMO, plenty of life advice along the way. So today, I want to share our conversation with all of you, recorded onstage in DC. So, sit back and enjoy. Here we go.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Y'all, aren't we excited?

• 2:16Michelle Obama?

  You all don't have to pretend like you are not just freaking out right now.

• 2:22Michelle Obama?

  Oh my goodness. Not just on the bestsellers list, but number one. Number one. Look at this. If y'all have not bought your copy, please do because this is an amazing read. Tina, how does it feel to be number one?

• 2:40Speaker 01

  It feels great.

• 2:45Michelle Obama?

  Oh my goodness. And how are you feeling? I mean, you're about to launch a nine-city tour. And I know you're not comfortable in the spotlight. You are used to being behind the scenes, making everybody else look good. So I know this is a little uncomfortable for you, y'all. She doesn't know how to be the center of attention, even though she looks like she knows.

• 3:11Michelle Obama?

  How does it feel to share your story with the world? Because let me tell you, when I wrote Becoming, I shared this.

• 3:20Michelle Obama?

  It's not about me, but what I'm saying is that, you know, I was all confident writing the book.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25Michelle Obama?

  And then the day it was coming out, I could not sleep because I thought, oh my God. I told everybody everything.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Everything. That's right.

• 3:34Michelle Obama?

  And I couldn't get to sleep. And I was like, what if I made a horrible mistake? Okay.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Same here. I mean, I would call my kids and I'd be like, I think I talked too much. And, you know, they were like, what did you put in there? Because I sent them their parts, you know, but they didn't. I was like, they're too busy. And plus, I was scared. So I just held it from them. But they were like, what did you put in there? And I said, I tried to just tell my story. But sometimes your story includes other people. So that's the scary. It was scary. I was, I've been up for days.

• 4:11Michelle Obama?

  I hear you.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Between that and Cowboy Carter, I have no hair.

• 4:16Michelle Obama?

  Say, oh, that, oh, that little project. Because it's not like you're doing this and that, right? So you're still leading the wardrobe on a big worldwide tour?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:28Michelle Obama?

  Are you crazy?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Well, we didn't plan it that way, but I wanted the book out for Mother's Day.

• 4:35Michelle Obama?

  There you go.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  And, you know, but we have an amazing team.

• 4:39Michelle Obama?

  I like that she was like, "Oh, well."

• 4:41Speaker 01

  We have an amazing team of stylists, so they got this.

• 4:44Michelle Obama?

  That's so good.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:46Michelle Obama?

  That's so good. And so the family is feeling good about the book, as we can hear. Nobody is calling you going, "Mama, what'd you say that for?"

• 4:53Speaker 01

  No, no, not yet. I'm gonna get the call, though. I know it already.

• 5:00Michelle Obama?

  Well, to truly understand that Tina knows that we've come to love and respect. And now I love it that you say that the reader's gotta know your history. And this is a quote. You say, "To keep me grounded, she, my mother, told me stories from our family history. I listened to every single word she told me. These people, my people, my ancestors and parents when they were young, were characters in a long drama that I am now part of. Their struggles were not mine, but their lessons could be. This was my inheritance. These stories that people had done their best to erase or degrade to keep us from passing them down,

• 5:45Michelle Obama?

  so that we wouldn't know our history or ourselves." I want to ask you, Tina, why do you think it's important to know and tell your story, our stories?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Well, just because. I think in your family, have you ever wondered where you got something from? Where you got the strength to get through something? Or where you got the, you know, that feeling of fear?

• 6:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I mean, there are many things that I connected the dots on just looking at my ancestors and my grandparents. You know, both of my great-grandmothers were enslaved. But they kept their kids with them. So you know that that was a priority, and you know what that had to take back then. But somehow they managed to do that. And I just feel like that's such a strong thing. So I know when times have been so, so rough for me, and I've been through a lot in my life. That that's what got me through.

• 6:43Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  It's those ancestors, that strength, that we were just, you know, kick-ass women that

• 6:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  that hung in there and dealt with the obstacles. Yeah.

• 6:53Michelle Obama?

  And what would you say, that we had a lot of folks of all ages, but what would you say here tonight, what would you say to young people who don't know their stories?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  I think you should, I think that you should research it. And there are, I mean, think about it, for me, I'm 71 years old, so

• 7:11Michelle Obama?

  Let's just stop there.

• 7:14Michelle Obama?

  Y'all, this is what 71 looks like. You act right, I'm sorry.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  But I was just saying that, you know, back in my time, we didn't have ancestry

• 7:26Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  dot com and all these resources that we have now. And I remember starting that process like many years ago, maybe 14 years ago, whenever.

• 7:37Michelle Obama?

  You did ancestry?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I did ancestry, and I did, but I started first just looking back to say, you know, my mom has told me these stories about my mother's family, she always told me stories about them and I knew their names, but I really didn't know my daddy's people. And so I started being interested in where the name, it's actually Beysse, and it's, you know, where he came from. And why is my name spelled B-E-Y-I-N-C? Well, someone did a store, something on Instagram, that's a relative of mine, I don't know him, but there were like 17 spellings of that. And, you know, that happened to a lot of people in here, you might think that was your original spelling, but when you go back and look, it's just changed, especially with

• 8:23Speaker 01

  people of color, because, black people, because we took on these

• 8:27Michelle Obama?

  Other people's names, yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  And we were called everything, or, in my case, we weren't important enough for you to spell it right on my birth certificate. So all of us have different spellings. But it is important for you to know where you came from and to pass that on to your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren, because I never got to meet my grandmother. And my children never got to meet their grandmother. And so, I started writing this book like when I got a divorce in like 19, I mean 19, look at me, I'm aging myself. And

• 9:03Michelle Obama?

  It felt like it was that long.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was thinking. And you're right.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  I was 59, let me say that because I don't know what year it was, but.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  I just.

• 9:18Michelle Obama?

  We'll get to that later.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I felt very disconnected. I felt old at 59, Lord have mercy. This time it was 69, can you imagine? But I, I, I just felt like my, started thinking about mortality and I'm like, what if my grandchildren don't get to meet me? What, not my great grandchildren?

• 9:39Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And how will they know? Because my mom's favorite thing was keep a word going. And that meant tell the stories and keep, keep your, keep your messages, keep your stories going generations down. And in order to do that, I had to start writing it. So that's how I started just recording it.

• 9:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  And I was able to go back to that, you know, when, when we started writing.

• 10:03Michelle Obama?

  So, so it doesn't take deep knowledge. It just takes, you know, for you all out there, start, it, it is stories. That's all it is. It's the stuff you hear around the kitchen table. You want to retain that, write that down, especially in a time when they are trying to erase our history.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:21Michelle Obama?

  So it is important to do what Miss Kinnon's been doing.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  And I encourage everybody, you know, people ask me, what do you want people to leave with? And that is what I want you to leave with, that I never thought I'd publish a book and you don't have to publish a book. Leave it for your great grandchildren so that they can know your history and hear it from you because you know, your cousins would be like, oh, your mama, you know, she was over there doing this and that and the other. Tell your own story.

• 10:48Michelle Obama?

  Tell your own story. Now, speaking of names though, you didn't like your name.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:56Michelle Obama?

  Tell us, tell us about, tell us your real name. Celestine, you said they called, called you everything but.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Everything. And then I had a last name like Beyonce. That was a lot of name for a little kid in the 50s.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  You know, we didn't have these cool, creative names. I wanted my name to be Linda Smith.

• 11:14Michelle Obama?

  Just Linda. You just wanted a Linda. So, tell the story about how you finally did change your name.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Well, my mama was in the hospital and my brothers had to take me to register me for school. So, I was like, "Please, don't tell them my name was Celeste. Please." And they were like, "We don't know what to do because they're gonna look at your birth certificate." And I said, "Just don't give it to them." So, we went in there and we just said, "Our mama is in the hospital." We all looked real sad. And we don't have the paperwork, but we promised we'll bring it back. But it's so important to my mama that we get my little sister in school. They didn't go along with it at first, but I was like begging. And my brother Larry, who was a softie, he helped me out. And I literally, in 5th grade, changed my name to Tina.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  By the time we brought the paperwork.

• 12:05Michelle Obama?

  It was too late.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  I was Tina, Beyonce.

• 12:11Michelle Obama?

  You have so many amazing stories about your childhood. I just, you will fall in love with the Galveston community that Ms. Tina talks about. But you describe your childhood in Galveston, Texas. You say, "This was abundance." And y'all are gonna recognize this. A game song with my best friend, a swing set bought on stamps, bulk-packed hot dogs, 5-cent sodas, our own boat, and bread for the birds. We shared what we had and felt like we had it to give. My family was on pennies, but we were living like millionaires."

• 12:56Michelle Obama?

  Now, doesn't that describe a lot of our upbringing, you know? Tell us about your neighborhood, about that big community of people that you grew up in, that family of cousins and uncles and nephews and all of that.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Well, I grew up in this area that was a working-class neighborhood. And everybody was poor, so I don't think we knew. And we had this backyard that they would say, "Oh, they have a huge backyard." And I went to that house with Beyonce, and she was like, "Mama, that is a living backyard." But to us, it was huge. And we had a swing set, because my mama collected SNH green stamps. Y'all don't know what that is.

• 13:43Michelle Obama?

  They're too young. The SNH stamps, you lick them, your tongue would get all sticky. But you'd get the books and buy things. I can't believe you all had enough to buy swing sets. All we could get was a toaster.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Listen, my mama was serious. And then she would take all of us, and I had eight, my sister had eight children. And we would all go, and we would look so pitiful. And say, "Do y'all want y'all stamps?" And people, that's how we get our Christmas presents. Which was true, but people would just give us stamps. And we would just collect them. And they got, we had ping pong sets, croquet sets. Like, my mom, that was the playground for everyone. She figured out a way to do everything.

• 14:25Michelle Obama?

  But you said your, all the kids would come to your backyard. And your mother would, if you were gonna go. When you describe having your own boat, explain what that meant.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  It's the ferry, the free ferry. But my mama would say, "Y'all wanna go on our boat today?" And we'd be like, "Yeah." And then I was sharing in the book that when I became a teenager, that was part of the Tina game. Because I would take my boyfriends out there and sing to them. And say, "You wanna go on my yacht?"

• 14:56Speaker 01

  And they'd get there, and it was the free ferry.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  You know?

• 15:01Michelle Obama?

  But you always made room for everyone in the neighborhood, right? So you would gather everybody up. I love that. Talk about that, because, I mean, that, I, I, I'd spent a lot of time in the early chapters of your book, because I feel like those stories, and I've known you, we've spent time together. But to really now get who you are, that sort of generosity of spirit, all of that, that who you are, it really happened under that pecan tree in that backyard. And I want, because it's also, when people see folks in the limelight, they make assumptions about where we're from and what we have.

• 15:43Michelle Obama?

  And I think it's important for people to really know the real Tina. Because y'all were, y'all had to make it through some tough times.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  We did. We had to make it through some tough times. And it was so, you know, my sister had eight children. My mom had seven, but five at home. I remember my daddy getting what they call pennies. And that was unemployment. It was thirty-five dollars. Now, think about a family with seven people living in a two-bedroom house. And getting thirty-five dollars a week. It was, you know, it was some really tough times, but it was so much fun. Like, we just had so much fun and we had so many kids around and when you fought one, you had to fight everybody.

• 16:24Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, we, uh, we played in that tree. We had all these games. And we really didn't realize how poor we were. Until somebody told us, you know?

• 16:36Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Michelle Obama?

  Do you remember your first fight? Cause I sure do.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:40Michelle Obama?

  Because when you grow up in the neighborhood, at some point, you gotta fight somebody just to be able to stay outside.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  There was a girl. Absolutely true.

• 16:50Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And you had to stay outside, cause your mama put you outside. So, go outside till it get ready to get dark and then come back in, cause there's no space. And, uh, this girl, Medina, I used to fight.

• 17:02Michelle Obama?

  Uh-huh.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  I mean, she was the... See there? She used to fight me. She used to beat the crap out of me.

• 17:07Michelle Obama?

  Uh-huh.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  And, uh, my brother, I remember I broke my thumb and I, I, I had a cast on and he said, "You got superpowers. It's superpowers in that cast." And I went and hit Medina. I started a fight with her and just hit her.

• 17:21Michelle Obama?

  Cause sometimes you gotta do that. With the Medina's of the world, sometimes you gotta, gotta go jack her off.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 17:27Michelle Obama?

  So I just walked out. To make sure you keep her thrown off, right?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  That's right. But then she...

• 17:30Michelle Obama?

  Mine was, uh, DeeDee.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  DeeDee?

• 17:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I had one.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  So what did Dee... Why did DeeDee want?

• 17:36Michelle Obama?

  You know, she was always messing with me, right? So it was one of those things, and I think I took her off-guard because I just decided, I decided in my little soul, I'm gonna go beat DeeDee up.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 17:48Michelle Obama?

  So I went outside. We were just playing jump rope and then I was like, wah, wah, wah, wah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  And see, you have the same story, cause you didn't even have a reason that day. You waiting for her to bully you.

• 17:58Michelle Obama?

  She gave me reasons many of the days.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. So that day, you just catch 'em off-guard. But I hit Medina, knocked Medina down. And then I said, "Oh, what did I do?"

• 18:08Michelle Obama?

  Then you felt bad.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  I ran home. No, I ran home. I was like, Medina is gonna beat the crap out of me. But Medina respected me after that. So I tell my grandchildren that story.

• 18:19Michelle Obama?

  Same thing, same thing.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And their parents are like, "Don't be telling my kids to go fight." Like, you gotta protect yourself.

• 18:27Michelle Obama?

  Well, the lesson for the young people today is use your words.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  That's right, use your words.

• 18:32Michelle Obama?

  But sometimes, it's time.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  See, that's that double Capricorn energy up here.

• 18:40Michelle Obama?

  That's right. That's right, because we get it, right? It's like, sometimes, it's like, you're not gonna have me hiding in my house, in my neighborhood. How did growing up in such a big family shape, how you built and defined your family? Because, you know, we all know that you got a lot of kids, and then a lot, a lot of kids, right?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  I got a lot of kids.

• 19:02Michelle Obama?

  And you were mothering so many people, but that comes from something.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  It comes from my mother, just mothering everybody. You know, they call me, call my momma Teeny Mama.

• 19:13Michelle Obama?

  Teeny Mama, I love that.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And my mom just adopted the whole neighborhood.

• 19:18Michelle Obama?

  So was it Teeny Mama or Teeny Mama?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Teeny Mama.

• 19:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it was Teeny Mama. Y'all get that?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  So, you know, she mothered people, and she took people in, and so that's all I've known my whole life. And I know in my heart that we are born to families, but that other people, I mean, it might not be your blood mama, but, you know, sometimes, but you can have a mama. And I just love mothering.

• 19:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Mothering, it's my gift, I think God gave to me, so I love it. But I got it from a mama.

• 19:54Michelle Obama?

  And in this day and age, when there are more and more people who say that they feel lonely, you know, especially with social media, we're still recovering from COVID. It just breaks my heart to know that there are folks out there. One of the reasons we started our podcast was to create a space for people to feel like they had some kind of kitchen table.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Good.

• 20:17Michelle Obama?

  And I think that what, you know, a matriarch shows us is the power of building family wherever you are. You know, and it takes an active engagement, it takes intention. Because Teeny Mama was intentional about keeping her doors open and inviting people in. And you've been incredibly intentional about keeping your kitchen table broad and open.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I got it from her. And it's, you know, it's brought me so much joy. And I say all the time that, you know, again, I just want to reiterate that some of us are not blessed enough to have our blood family, but you can still have a family. There is always somebody out there that needs some love too. You just exchange that love.

• 21:09Michelle Obama?

  And we don't do this life alone. We were not built to do this life alone. You know, Barack was telling me, we've been talking a lot about how the advent of the nuclear family, just like us,

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:23Michelle Obama?

  is new. It's new to this generation. And a lot of the reasons that families and young couples are struggling is because they think they're supposed to do it with just them. And we all grew up with aunts and uncles and cousins. Our mothers were not ever trying to raise us by ourselves. So don't get fooled into thinking that it's just ever supposed to be you. You know, we need playmamas and cousins and uncles and aunties and pretend neighbors. And I want our young people to stop trying to do this life on their own. And I think Tina is living example that that's the way we're supposed to live.

• 22:06Michelle Obama?

  Tina, your parents just sounded amazing. But they, like most people of that generation, they lived hard lives. You say your mother was overprotective, cautious, and yet deeply devoted. You describe your father as hardworking, loving, and flawed. A terrible incident and a mind left him blind in one eye. And he never learned to read or write, something you didn't even know until later in life. But despite these hardships, they showed up for your family. You want to talk a little bit about some of the lessons that you learned from your parents and some of the lessons you had to unlearn?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, some of the, you know, I want to talk about that too because my mother was a wonderful woman, and she was a great mom. But she... Had a lot of fear. And she, she put that fear, tried to put it on me, but I was just too wild and stubborn to listen. But she also was so, when I say she's overprotective, I felt like she didn't trust me.

• 23:13Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  I, I went through some teenage years where my mom was, um, you know, she just, I, I felt like, yeah, I just felt like she was, um, she didn't trust me. She thought I was fast, or I was gonna go get pregnant, and my friends got pregnant. And so then she was like, oh, you know, she just harped on that so much. And, uh, sometimes created a little shame about things that I shouldn't even felt shame about. So I'm very honest about that because my mom was flawed. She wasn't perfect. She was darn near perfect in other ways, but in that way, we had a rough teenage year time.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Because I felt like, and when you guys read the book, you'll see that there were times when I felt like she didn't trust me. And I have an older sister who's here tonight. Flo, I don't know where you are.

• 24:06Michelle Obama?

  Flo is here. Oh, yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 24:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, where is Flo?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Where are you, Flo?

• 24:11Michelle Obama?

  Right there, right there in the second row.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 24:14Michelle Obama?

  Hey, Flo.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Stand up, Flo.

• 24:16Michelle Obama?

  Flo, yeah, Flo, stand up, Flo.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  And she looked real sweet, but let me tell y'all.

• 24:30Michelle Obama?

  Oh, we gonna get to Flo.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, well, I won't spoil it, but anyway, I, I would call Flo and I would say, you know, I can't stand her because she just said this, or she did that, and, you know, Flo would smooth things out. So thank God I had this, this older sister. But yeah, my mom, we went through some rough times. And I think if anything, you know, she told me later when we made up, that, um, I called her and I said, why didn't you trust me? And she said, you know, Teeny, I trusted you, I just didn't trust the world.

• 25:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  And I understood that, and I realized my mom was a great mom, you know, at that point. Thank God I learned that. I mean, I, I, I saw some other moms and I was like, damn, I better go call my mom because...

• 25:13Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  I didn't know what I had, you know?

• 25:16Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Michelle Obama?

  That's right, that's right.

• 25:22Michelle Obama?

  But like you said, it wasn't easy raising a bunch of kids in the deep segregated South.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:28Michelle Obama?

  Because, you know, when, you know, if you think times are bad now, you know, being in Galveston, Texas, growing up when stuff was real rough. And even though your folks showered you with an abundance of love, they couldn't or didn't always have the tools to protect you from the world, as you would come to realize. I want you to tell the powerful story of your first encounter with some of that ugliness. When you were just five years old, your mother put you in Holy Rosary Catholic School across the street, and you met Sister Fidelis.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:14Michelle Obama?

  Boo, yeah, yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  And isn't that crazy that I'm 71 and I can remember Sister Fidelis? A lot of teachers I don't remember, but my first five minutes of school, because I was very excited about going to school. I used to go there all the time because it was right across the street. And the first five minutes, she, some kid pointed at me and I pointed back at him. And she said, "Who's talking?" And she came and got me and took me to the front of the class. And she hit us with these sticks, and I had never been spanked before. So I was like, "Oh, my God, I don't think I want to do this." So I ran home at recess and told my mama, "I don't like that she hit me." And I was thinking my mom was going to go over there and get in her case. And my mom brought me back and said, "Apologize to Sister." And I'm like, "What?"

• 27:01Speaker 01

  And so that's what I mean about her just being passive. And, you know, my daddy used to drive the nuns. And my brothers worked in the schoolyard. All of us went to the school. And what I found out later is that my parents were actually bartering. They were, my mom would make the altar boy uniforms and so for this church and... I was just like, why y'all let them make us slaves? Like, you know, what's going on? But she was actually bartering, which was very unselfish of my parents. And I really appreciate that now. Because they just wanted to protect us again, you know? But the nuns were always, because we weren't paying to go to school and we were poor.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  And you know, it was like teachers, kids, and nurses, they were like the elite. And they always said that I didn't belong there. And that if I only knew. And they were just, they were just not. They tried to break my spirit. They told me that they wanted to break my spirit. And I was like, no, you're not. In my little five-year-old head, I just became this warrior because I had to protect myself.

• 28:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. And I love that story because it says so much about children, first of all. That, you know, and I say this all the time. Children come here with a certain wisdom and a spirit, you know? And it takes the world to knock it out of us.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 28:30Michelle Obama?

  And you know when somebody is setting your bar low. You children know when somebody is talking down to them. And the reason I would think that you remember Sister Fidelis is because that was the first time you truly felt unprotected.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  It was.

• 28:48Michelle Obama?

  And you knew you were better than who she thought you were.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:52Michelle Obama?

  And that stuck with you.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  It stuck with me. And there were many kids, well, I want to say many because I don't think that my mom, I don't think that they were as, it was me and my brother Skip that they really picked on.

• 29:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And we were the last two, I think. And, but there were other kids too. Like, I remember this guy Glenn. And my kids always saying, don't say people's last name, they gonna come back and sue you.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  But I remember Glenn. No, they told me that many times.

• 29:25Michelle Obama?

  I know, it's true. It's true.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:27Michelle Obama?

  You were absolutely... And they're right about that.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  I shouldn't have said that. Then I shouldn't even say that. But anyway, he, uh, don't get no ideas. Don't get no ideas. But Glenn, they would, you know, pick on him too. And his dad was a barber. And so, I don't know if it... They just had a thing about us not feeling like we were worthy to be there with these professional people's kids. You know, I don't know.

• 29:54Michelle Obama?

  But you knew that there was something in you that told you that you did belong.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Michelle Obama?

  That you were worthy.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Well, at that time, I think it was more so that I just said, "You're not gonna break my spirit."

• 30:06Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  That's all I knew. Because I had a mouth on me and I...

• 30:09Michelle Obama?

  No.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  And you know, I think... You know, I, as a kid, talked back. And I just think I...

• 30:17Michelle Obama?

  What did they call you?

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Badass Tina B.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  It was really just badass Tina. And my, uh... You know, I had these older parents. So by the time I came along, they were really tired. And they didn't discipline me like they did my brothers and sisters. They, uh... With me, they were more lax. So I was always talking stuff, talking back into everything. And so, it gave me that spirit to actually stand up

• 30:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  to them, I believe.

• 30:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and you would need that.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:54Michelle Obama?

  You would need that fighter...

• 30:55Speaker 01

  It protected me.

• 30:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You were always a fighter. In fact, as they say, they called you badass Tina B.

• 31:05Michelle Obama?

  And you needed that attitude to make your way in a big family.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 31:09Michelle Obama?

  But you also needed it growing up in the shadows of racism. Your sister Flo, who we just met. Flo, in your lifetime, participated in the early sit-ins that led to the desegregation of Woolworth Lunch Counters

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:26Michelle Obama?

  in Galveston.

• 31:32Michelle Obama?

  Your parents had to deal with the constant targeting of your brothers by local police. So this fear, this constant fear of needing to protect you all was real. But then you grew up into the miniskirt wearing Afro, midriff barren Shaft loving teen. So you brought all that environment. You brought all that energy. I want you to tell about the time that you got hauled into the police station for doing absolutely nothing.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Nothing, just being outside of a movie. And this cop came up and said, "Come here." And I went over and my friend Vanessa, who was really scary, and we went over and he was like, "What's your name?" And I said, "Why do you need my name?" And there was all these kids waiting and we had just seen Shaft, so, you know, I was feeling really like...

• 32:34Michelle Obama?

  Yeah? Shut your mouth.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  That's right. So, and he just kept saying, "Give me your name." And I said, "I'm not gonna give you my name." I don't know why. And so he's like, "Well, I'm gonna take you down to the station." I said, "Well, take me, because I wanna ask..." And all the kids are saying, "She didn't do nothing, she didn't do nothing." And so he puts us in the car and he takes us to the station and his sergeant chewed him out. I could see him like, "What are you doing?" But he came out and he said, "Officer, the officer is gonna take you home and not on the corner where he found you." And I was like, "The corner? We were in the front of the movies, we're high school students." And he said, "Oh, well, you know, y'all, you look like nice girls, but y'all shouldn't be out there on the streets."

• 33:20Speaker 01

  So, he had told him this story and when we left out, he like talked to us so crazy because he said, "The officer's gonna take you home and not take you, you know, leave you on the corner where he found you, whatever." And so when we were walking out, the guy says, "Is your brother's name Loomis Beyonce?" And I said, "Oh." So you're, and he said, "Yeah, I'm the one that kicked his." And I said, "What? From where? I was, he kicked your." So, you know, we had this big confrontation and he actually called us some really bad names. And it was, it was pretty bad, but that was just one of the incidences. Because he actually wound up taking me to jail.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to jail, y'all.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Which my granddaughter just said to me the other day. She said, "You went to jail?" And I was like, "I didn't think about that." And I put that in the book. But just riding motorcycles and racing with my brother Butch. He had a bunch of kids out on the beach. And we were racing and, and this guy came up and he took me to jail. And he rolled me through the park where if you come to Galveston, there's a park called Menard Park. And black people would just line up in their Sunday best and be out on the beach. And we would just wa, you know, people would walk through showing off their outfits. You wash your car and drive through. It was like a parade, you know, it's a little small town. D and B, y'all know about that. Yeah, y'all know.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  There's an old bunch of places. So he drove me through that. So somebody saw me in the car and they were like, "Tina Beyonce in that police car." And I'm like, "Oh, Lord." And they took me to jail and did a cavity search. And I talk about that in a book. And it was the most humiliating, traumatizing thing to me. To be like, I think at the time I was like ma, maybe 18. And it was, it was terrible. And he put me in jail and I wound up having to pay all these fines. And we were on outside of the city limits. But this guy was just like a nightmare to us because he just...

• 35:35Michelle Obama?

  Was after your family.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  My family. Everyone.

• 35:39Michelle Obama?

  Just jealous.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean.

• 35:41Michelle Obama?

  Just jealous. But when you talk about the fear that your mother had, getting back to your mother, and I'm sure your father, that fear was real.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:51Michelle Obama?

  But I think the interesting thing, you know, because I talk a lot about fear. Because we're living in times where we see how fear can protect you, but it can also keep you locked.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:04Michelle Obama?

  And small. And it's so important to be able to distinguish between the fear that you need and the fear that keeps you small.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 36:14Michelle Obama?

  You have been able to, you know, sort of evolve past that fear. That even though your mother raised you with that real fear, there was something in you that said, "I can't carry that fear because I'll get stuck like they did."

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:33Michelle Obama?

  And that's important for young people to understand. How do you redefine yourself in an environment that is justifiably based in real fear?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Well, I think that that was justifiably based in fear, and it was real. But I think that when I was a teenager, I think, well, I just think to survive, that you're living in it. You don't have a choice about it. So you just don't let yourself dwell on it.

• 37:05Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  But I think that my mother's fears of things gave me a fearlessness because I didn't want to be that way.

• 37:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  And I wanted to, if somebody was, you know, messing with my kids, then I'd become a beast. You know, I'm gonna fight. And when somebody's trying to control me, I'm gonna fight.

• 37:26Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  But I got that from, you know, from just not wanting to be fearful. But what I do understand is that my mama was still behind the scenes. She was protecting us in her way. I just didn't see it when I was young. I was like, she didn't protect me. But she did the best she could do with all the fear that she had because of the things she had been through.

• 37:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. How could I expect her to be fearless?

• 37:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. You say something that when I think of my mom, who you guys know, past a year ago. But I write about her in The Light. And she was very determined to not parent the way her parents parented her. And I think that that's, you know, and I knew all my grandparents, but I also knew their weaknesses. They believed in things that kids should be seen and not heard, that, you know, you know, the old-fashioned kind of stuff like that. And the thing I always say about my mother's parenting brilliance

• 38:37Michelle Obama?

  was that a lot of times we just emulate what we see. But Tina, you're an example that you can change, you can be from one place, be taught a set of things, but you don't have to be of it if it doesn't serve you.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:53Michelle Obama?

  And so when you approached becoming a mother, because I want to talk a little bit about mothering, you made a concerted effort to be a very different mother.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:06Michelle Obama?

  Can you talk about that?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  The things that, you know, I took the good from my mom, which were so many great things. But I also learned from the things that I felt like she didn't do such a great job on, and that was to protect my children. I think, you know, I would speak up. I would fight with people. I remember traveling with them, especially the business that they went into, entertainment. It was very scary for me. And I remember having to go and fight with light people, fight with, you know, the music people. And here I was, this country woman from Texas with this big hair and this thick, thick accent. And people didn't really respect me

• 39:52Speaker 01

  because they'd be like, who is she to come in here and start telling us about light? And I'd say, well, you know, I don't know about light, but I do know that they look gray and they some black girls, and you better get that real light off of them. And I wouldn't leave until they... I wasn't aggressive, I wasn't loud. I would just stand there. And they say, "Okay, well, can you move?" "No, when you change the light, I can move." And I protected them. I didn't let people, you know, do certain things around them. They couldn't smoke weed in the studio around them. They couldn't curse. Can you imagine my country self in there telling these producers, "I'm sorry, but can y'all not smoke in here?"

• 40:34Speaker 01

  You know, and I remember just being... Having to be a little gangster sometimes, you know? I remember one time, we were in one of the first things that we went to in Florida. And there was this group, and I'm not gonna say their name, but they were behind us, and they said, "Oh, I'm gonna go take a picture with these and call the girls." And they were like 16, 17. And they said it one time, and I was like, "Tina, shut up."

• 41:03Michelle Obama?

  So you could feel yourself, right?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  I could feel myself. So I turned around, and they said it again, and I said, "I don't see your mama out here."

• 41:10Michelle Obama?

  Ooh!

• 41:12Speaker 01

  No, but let me tell you, the record...

• 41:15Michelle Obama?

  What was that girl's name you had the... What was her name again?

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Medina.

• 41:19Michelle Obama?

  Medina. Like, "I'm gonna Medina you up in here."

• 41:22Speaker 01

  So they... The record people came, and they were like, "Oh, my God, this Tina, you cannot do that. We gotta get you to the car." And they said... They told me the name of the group, and they were like, "They will shoot you." And I was like, "Well, they gonna have to shoot me, 'cause they can't talk to my girls like that." And so I did a lot of things out of just being naive, you know, 'cause that just came out of my mouth.

• 41:46Michelle Obama?

  You have raised the other thing about your mothering that was interesting to read about, that people don't... Maybe not know. Your girls are like night and day.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're very different.

• 41:59Michelle Obama?

  Two different people. And, you know, I always say about mothering, you know, you have your first child, and they turn out, they're so sweet, and they sleep through the night. And you start thinking, "I'm such a good mother." And I know what I'm doing. And then the second one shows up.

• 42:18Michelle Obama?

  And you're like, "Oh, no!"

• 42:23Michelle Obama?

  What did I do?

• 42:26Michelle Obama?

  Can you talk about how you approached sort of seeing both of your daughters for who they were?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things is just that when somebody asks me what's the best advice I can give to them, it is always that if you have more than one child, to see that child for who they are, to try to find out what, you know, what makes their clock tick or whatever, what excites them, what are their best qualities, and not compare. You know, when you grow up, that was another thing that I think my mother, she liked her boys.

• 43:12Michelle Obama?

  Oh.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  She liked her boys.

• 43:14Michelle Obama?

  My mother, I tell people, Craig.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:17Michelle Obama?

  I was like, what do I have to do, lady?

• 43:19Speaker 01

  I know, that's right.

• 43:21Michelle Obama?

  I'm the first lady of the United States.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 43:23Michelle Obama?

  She's like, you live in the White House.

• 43:29Michelle Obama?

  She's like, but Craig's wine is so good. And I was like, oh, lady, please. I'm so glad to hear.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I remember your mom.

• 43:36Michelle Obama?

  This is why we are the way we are.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right.

• 43:39Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my lady.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  But my mom, my brother Larry, she, that was just her heart and soul. So she'd be like, can you go in there and fix Larry's bed? And I'm like, no.

• 43:48Michelle Obama?

  Fix his bed?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Larry can fix his own bed. There you go. You know, but I think I learned from that too, because I feel like you can't, you know, you love your kids the same, and then there are qualities about one that you like better maybe than the other, but it's so important to make them feel just as important. And especially when you have a five-year gap like my girls. And so, one of the things is, you know, when Beyonce just wanted her little sister so bad and she just loves Solange and adored her. Until she got one. She was ready to send her back. But by the time she got to be 10, she was in that group.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden, I just started noticing that the girls in the group would say, "Shut up, Solange, because Solange be in there trying to run things, trying to teach her choreography and..." Trying to keep up. She was trying to keep up. Keep up with her sister. And Beyonce started letting them say, "Shut up, Solange, be quiet, Solange. Mama, come get Solange," you know? And I was like, "This is Solange's house. Y'all in her house." And so, I... Don't you love Tina? Yes.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  No, I'm like, "This is my house, y'all visiting." So, you know, but I took them to therapy because I saw... Okay, let's stop there. She took these little people to therapy. I love that. I did. And, you know, I remember some of my relatives saying, "You gonna make them kids crazy."

• 45:23Speaker 01

  But I wanted them to be close. And I didn't want there to be this rivalry. And I didn't want it to be that Beyonce was not ride or die for her sister first. Yeah. You don't let somebody do your sister like that. Yeah. So, yeah. And so, I took them to therapy and I found this young man that was amazing. And he explained it all to Beyonce. Because I had been explaining it to her, but she wasn't listening. That's what they do. That's what they do. These children. Yeah. So, things got immediately better with them. Beyonce hated therapy. Solange loved therapy.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  And so Solange kept going. And eventually, um, her, her therapist passed away. And, uh, but, and so she stopped going as a kid. But it was just great for them. And, and, you know, I used to have to have a Solange day for her. Because when the kids are not really close together, it's, I think it's way harder. You know, when they're really close together, it's different, but I just didn't want that rivalry. And they have been close ever since.

• 46:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I used to have to tell Malia, I still kind of do, is, you know, I would make the point to her, because they're three years apart. And, you know, the big sister knows everything. So you got the little sister at the dinner table. And of course, the big sister's like, well, that's not how you say that. And why don't you know this? And I would have to pull her aside and be like, don't step on my child.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:58Michelle Obama?

  You know, no one stepped on you.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:01Michelle Obama?

  You, when you were her age and you sat at the table, not knowing anything, me and your father were like, oh, every word you utter is so brilliant. And now, here you come, you know, making your little sister feel like, not realizing that you're three years older. You know, so.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  And they look up to them so much that that is very hurtful to the younger kid, you know, and a blow to their self-esteem.

• 47:27Michelle Obama?

  But I'm, I'm the same way about not making comparisons. We got to the point at our dinner table where we just didn't talk about school at all. You know, it'd be like, you know, okay, you, you passed. I didn't want to hear about grades. I didn't want to get into that.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Because that's how the comparisons come.

• 47:43Michelle Obama?

  Exactly, because I didn't know what kind of student Sasha would be, you know. Um, so to this day, Malia still feels like, I don't give her enough credit, but she does. She's, she's good.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Well, they are both so brilliant. I, I had, I had lunch with them and I was just like, whoa. I mean, so confident and smart and talented.

• 48:03Michelle Obama?

  Well, see, the thing is, when we get together, it's like, we don't talk. Because you didn't tell me you were writing a book the last time we had lunch. Because we were so busy talking to these girls who all talk so much.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  They do, but it was just fascinating to hear them because they, it was. Those girls are, oh, I don't know what y'all on for, but, oh, okay.

• 48:28Michelle Obama?

  One of our many.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, you know, they were so smart and I, and they just grew up so fast. I guess because I wasn't around them all the time and I remember when they were little.

• 48:37Michelle Obama?

  Everybody feels that way.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  But you know what I remember is how, um, they are so, um, patient and, well, I don't know about Malia.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  And no, and I only say that because I've had, yeah. But we, no, I don't mean it like that.

• 49:00Michelle Obama?

  She had more.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  I had more experience, yeah. But I remember keeping those kids.

• 49:06Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  And how patient she was with the kids and, they are, they're wonderful girls.

• 49:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, but the thing I like about your mothering is, and my kids say that this is the phrase they hate for me to say, uh, I'm not one of your little friends.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I know, that's right. We talked about that.

• 49:22Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  I love that. I don't want to be your, you know, I don't want to be your little friends. We can be friends later in life.

• 49:28Michelle Obama?

  And so many people are trying to be their kids' friends and they think that that makes you closer.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:36Michelle Obama?

  But let me tell you, I was not my children's friend. I, I love them deeply.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:41Michelle Obama?

  Um, they, you know, there was respect and, you know, for those of you who are trying to be friends with your kids, um, our kids love us just as much as adults. In fact, the relationship, I think, is even closer.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:56Michelle Obama?

  Because now they've earned my friendship.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And now you can be friends, yeah.

• 50:01Michelle Obama?

  Now we can be friends. Now maybe you know something.

• 50:08Michelle Obama?

  One thing I wanted to touch on before we move on to is just mothering in the age of social media and this whole quest for fame and likes and being out there. And as a mother who's had to mother people through fame, can you talk a bit about the misperceptions of people who are chasing fame and how hard it is?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:36Michelle Obama?

  And whether they're thinking about what they're chasing?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:40Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Because it's not all fun and games. And the other thing it sets you up for is for people to lie on you and create their own narrative about your life. I have to see it every day on social media. My girls didn't want me on social media for that reason.

• 50:57Michelle Obama?

  Tina be acting up on social media.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  I get in trouble all the time. You know, I read something and it just makes me so angry and my fingers just start twitching and I can't control them.

• 51:13Michelle Obama?

  You gotta get your thumbs.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 51:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it's true. But, you know, it's something to want fame. And that's the one thing with young people, they don't, you know, the lights and the glitz don't look good.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  It's not all that.

• 51:29Michelle Obama?

  But there's a lot of sacrifice and a lot of loss. You wind up, you know, you have kids and people who have to grow up really fast and privacy is over.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  It's over. And the ability to protect your kids, there's nothing worse than somebody lying on your kids and saying all this horrible, crazy stuff about them. And it's nothing you could do because as a, you know, a private citizen, you get to go on a rant on Instagram and clap back. But for me, it makes the news. And then I get the phone call. And it's like, can you just be quiet?

• 52:13Michelle Obama?

  Well, let's jump ahead to the career Tina, right? Because, you know, in addition to being a ruthless mother and

• 52:23Speaker 01

  A ruthless mother.

• 52:25Michelle Obama?

  Ruthless and loving, from one ruthless mother to another. Um, no, but, uh, but you, uh, I love hearing about Headliners. Because that was the hair salon you started, the beauty center you started. And it sounded so much like the hair salon I went to from the time

• 52:48Speaker 01

  I'm sure.

• 52:48Michelle Obama?

  In Chicago, the time I was like, old enough to have money to get my own hair done. And my mother stopped pressing my hair by the stove. I went, I got babysitting money so I could go to a real hair salon. And it was a real professional hair salon. Where almost all the professional black women Women went to. In the city of Chicago went to. And it was called Van Cleef. And Ronnie was, he was my hairdresser until the time I went to the White House.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Really?

• 53:14Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yes. But Headliners reminds me of the Houston Version of Van Cleef. Can you talk about why you started it? What that was like for you? What it did for you to have your own business? What it meant for you in terms of your self-esteem?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Oh God, it did wonders for my self-esteem. Because I, um, I actually started my salon when I realized that I was totally dependent on my husband financially. And I felt like

• 53:46Michelle Obama?

  That part, y'all.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I felt like I wanted to get out of the marriage. And I was like, what am I gonna do? Like, what am, I, I, I just felt so dependent. And it really did work on my self-esteem. So I started making this plan to open my business. Now, I have to say that my ex-husband was the person who pushed me to go to beauty school. He's like, Tina, you're so talented and you could have your own business. And so it wasn't a thing like I just snuck and did it. And he actually helped me, gave me the seed money for it. And was like, you know, the marketing mind behind it a lot of times. But That salon allowed me the freedom to feel I was a boss.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  And you know, that was not, it would have been great if I wasn't the boss. But that made it even better. And, and it was, I wanted it to be a very professional place. And my friend, my, one of my best friends Cheryl is here tonight too. Cruzo, who was always encouraging me to start the business as well.

• 54:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  And she and I used to go to the salon and we loved it. But they were, you know, selling chicken dinners and hot stuff. And it was all this gossip going on and people would go, the stylists would go sit down and eat the, the chicken dinner. And I'm like, I gotta get home to my bed. I'm in there for five hours. I was like, I can't do this. And people liked the experience, but I didn't like the experience. I hated it and she hated it because she was a successful businesswoman. And so I started the salon and I wanted it to be, we didn't allow any gossip. If you got gossip, you, you got fired immediately. We were professional, we dressed professional.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And we got people in and out. We educated the stylist on, on technology and we mixed it with those old fashioned, heating up some olive oil and putting egg whites in and, you know, all of the things that I knew the hair needed. But the main thing that happened in that place was just pure love. Like camaraderie between women. Because when you provide a space that is positive without that negativity, it flourishes and people love it and women flourish.

• 56:04Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  So it was, it was more than a salon. It was, you know, it was a place of healing.

• 56:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And not looking down, not judging anybody, just, it was church. That's what it was.

• 56:18Michelle Obama?

  We know about that. I mean, how many people here where your hair salon is like your favorite place to be? Where all the, I know, I know. And so you provided that, that space, but I love the way.

• 56:32Michelle Obama?

  You talk about the need to get your independence.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:37Michelle Obama?

  Because your marriage wasn't always what it should have been.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:44Michelle Obama?

  Can you talk a bit about that first marriage? Because I love the way you talk about Matthew. I mean, you, y'all, you are not together.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:52Michelle Obama?

  There was a long breakup. There's a long.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Long, long, long.

• 56:57Michelle Obama?

  It's a long, I was just like, I'm reading like Tina.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like again?

• 57:01Michelle Obama?

  Oh, no, he's back.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yes, he's back.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  He's back. Many times, that's what Oprah said. She was like, girl? I was like, again?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:15Michelle Obama?

  But it was, but it was love there.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  It was love there.

• 57:18Michelle Obama?

  So, but it just didn't work?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  It didn't work.

• 57:20Michelle Obama?

  Tell us about that.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Well, I just think that people have, not that I was not flawed, but, you know, I just think people have their demons. And Matthew has some demons, but I never doubted for one minute that he didn't love me and those girls. And that he didn't take care of me. He doesn't, he didn't, he protected me. And I think in my life, when I look back on it, I realize that I stayed so long because he protected me and I didn't have that protection so much when I was coming up. I didn't feel protected. I didn't feel fought for.

• 57:56Michelle Obama?

  Oh, they've seen the picture.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. I know. I'm like, is that funny?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  But no, I was, you know, and he protected me and he was, and, and, and, you know, people say, God, you stayed with him for 31 years. Well, all 31 years were bad, y'all.

• 58:11Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  It was a lot of really great times and we built things together and we were very dedicated parents. And so, we had a lot of good things too. And I don't have anything bad to say about him. I mean, I don't.

• 58:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  I've forgiven him. And, you know, he's forgiven me for some, some times because I'm badass teeny beef, so I'm not trying to act like I was an angel. I wasn't an angel.

• 58:39Michelle Obama?

  What were some of the lessons you learned about yourself in your, in your marriage or in the exiting of your marriage?

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Well, what I learned about me in my exiting is that

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Again, that message keeps reoccurring to me that I am enough. Because I realized that I probably would not have stayed if I'd have just taken the time to really look at myself and give myself credit for all the things that I had accomplished. I was just trying to survive from day to day. It was always some, you know, in therapy, they tell you, and I've been in therapy forever, that if someone slaps you in the face and you're trying to recover for it and you get slapped again, you never can recover and get your strength because you're just slapped. I'm not saying he was slapping me, no, that wasn't happening. Don't start no rumors.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  But no, but I'm just saying, like, it wasn't only my marriage, it was like my parents dying. I lost my parents at, my mom at 26 years old. Six months after I got married, then I lost my dad two years later. And, you know, it was just one thing after another. It was always something that was happening that I was fighting. And I realized that my whole life has just been filled with challenges. And when you take the time to stop and convince yourself that you are enough and that, you know, you're gonna be just fine whether you're with someone or not. That's, that, I, I.

• 1:00:18Michelle Obama?

  Say that, say that part one more time slowly.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  You are. You know, you will be just fine and you will get, it's called getting through it because you ain't gonna get stuck there. There's light at the end of the tunnel and you're gonna go through it and you're gonna come out on the other side. And whether you are, you know, young or old, I wish I would have learned that lesson a lot earlier, you know?

• 1:00:42Michelle Obama?

  I mean, I'm trying my best because I know that when it comes to raising daughters and women, you know, we're socialized to think that we aren't good enough. We're, we're socialized to think that we need somebody else to make us whole. And that starts so young. I mean, it starts with Barbie, Barbie dolls and Ken and the wedding dress and the, the questions that we ask our daughters that even, you know, my, my grandmother, when I'm, I'm in law school at Harvard, y'all. My, my grandmother, I would call her to check in and she'd be like, what'd you make for dinner? And I was like, "Nothing, Grandma, I'm in law school." "I don't even have a kitchen in my dorm."

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:26Michelle Obama?

  You know, but it was the message.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  There was a message.

• 1:01:29Michelle Obama?

  So I'm trying to figure out how to not program that in my girls and the girls in my life. Because, you know, if you ask somebody, "You dating somebody?" You know, they might be happy, but then you're asking them, "Well, you're happy, but are you dating somebody?" And then they're dating somebody, and then it's like, "Oh, you dating somebody when you getting married."

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:50Michelle Obama?

  And then it's on and on and on. So, when you gonna have a baby?

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  And that's not for everyone.

• 1:01:56Michelle Obama?

  It's not for everyone.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, that's true.

• 1:01:58Michelle Obama?

  So what would you tell, um, young people out there about marriage and how they should think about it?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think that marriage is wonderful, and I hope that it is in everyone's future because I think it's a beautiful way to build a life together. But that the person that you choose to build it has to be on the same page.

• 1:02:19Michelle Obama?

  There you go.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  They can't be on a different page, you know? But I think that love is wonderful, and I hope that everyone finds it. But if you are not with a partner, I think you can have as, just as fulfilled, full of a life.

• 1:02:36Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  And that it's better to be by yourself than to be with somebody who don't get it.

• 1:02:40Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Or that's not so exciting when you walk into the room.

• 1:02:45Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  That they understand that you are a prize, you know?

• 1:02:52Michelle Obama?

  I want to talk a bit about Uncle Johnny because, um, you know, through it all, right? Because you were managing a salon, uh, two creative girls who had, uh, careers skyrocketing, trying to travel, trying to keep a marriage together, and it sounded like... Johnny was a huge part of helping you keep your life together? You want to talk a bit about?

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, well Johnny was, you know, by the time the girls got going really well, he was, you know, he was really sick.

• 1:03:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  But just in my life, since I was born, that was the person that I trusted more than anybody in the world, that I felt like never judged me.

• 1:03:37Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  And, um, and didn't judge anybody else. And that was just the most creative, free person. Because think about being born in that time.

• 1:03:48Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Uh, if, if, if I was born in 54, he was born in, what, 50, 1950? And he knew he was gay from probably three or four years old. And, um, how hard it was. But Johnny was my light. You know, my mommy used to say, "When Johnny fart, you gotta be there to catch it." And it was true. Because I just was there, you know, he, he, every day, he was my best friend. And, um, and I could just be really, really free with him.

• 1:04:18Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was amazing. He could cook, he could sew better than anybody. He was the sharpest, he would make these beautiful clothes. And he would be genuinely himself in front of anybody, you know, and not, not hide any part of him. I was so in awe of that. You know, how free he was.

• 1:04:40Michelle Obama?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  And he, you know, he came to work for me, um, at the house and, you know, it was the, even that gave me so much freedom because I knew that he was taking such good care of my girls. And they loved him, they adored him. He's the reason why, you know, there is a renaissance. And, um, he's a big reason why there, that I was able to do those costumes and all of that. He affected my life more than anybody else in my life.

• 1:05:12Michelle Obama?

  You have spent your life taking care of everybody else.

• 1:05:17Michelle Obama?

  You're doing it to this day. I mean, in the midst of your book tour, your mind, I know, is back there. And, you know, I can see your brain working up here. And sometimes that can take a toll. And for you, at one point, you know, you weren't focusing on your health.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Michelle Obama?

  And you share in the book that you almost missed a life-changing diagnosis. Do you want to talk a bit about that?

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, you know, I struggle. I have two endings to the book. And if you guys, when you read the book, you'll see that it's like an ending of the book. And then I go back and talk about my cancer journey. And the reason why I did that is because in 2022, I made my mammogram appointment. And right before it was to happen, COVID came. And they called me and told me, you know, we're not doing them in person, but we'll call you when we start again. So in my mind, I just got so busy with everything else that I did not go in '23. When it came back, you know, around that time, I thought I had gone in

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  '22. And then '24 came, and I was like, I gotta go have my mammogram. I gotta get all of my health things. So I did them. And, and they actually found like some spot on my cervix. And so I went back and had that biopsy, and it was fine. So I was like, I'm fine. I don't need to rush to have the mammogram. But I waited and waited. It was like five or six months before I went back. Not the mammogram, but the biopsy. And then when I went and they said, oh, you have cancer. I was like, not me. Like, it was so shocking to me. And even though it was early stages, I went, I flew to Houston to tell my sister Flo. And I said, well, I have the first, you know, I have the lowest

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  stage. I have stage one. And she said, no, actually, it's a stage zero. And it just hit me that I could have got this at stage zero.

• 1:07:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  And I am so blessed because they still got it very early and I didn't have to go to radiation or chemotherapy, thank you, Jesus.

• 1:07:27Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  But the point is, is that I could have kept going and not going. And it could have been stage four by the time I went. So I wanted people to think about that for a second. And I can tell you that one of the best things to come of this is on my Instagram, I can't tell you how many people said, "I'm gonna go get my mammogram. I've been putting it off for three years." You know, we have to, as women, take the time to take care of ourselves and go get our exams and not just put it off because there's so much going on all the time and you want to take care of everybody else.

• 1:08:04Michelle Obama?

  Please, y'all, listen to this.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  It's the truth.

• 1:08:06Michelle Obama?

  Because this is so, so prevalent in our community. Not just men, women, but it's men.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Men, too.

• 1:08:14Michelle Obama?

  And, you know, breast cancer is, is not a death sentence in the way that it was.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:21Michelle Obama?

  It, it is if we aren't checking. It is, is, is if we get too busy and life gets in the way. But with regular screening and really, you know, people should be going to the doctor. And I know in a time when people don't have healthcare, it's expensive.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  It's hard, yeah.

• 1:08:39Michelle Obama?

  You know, this is why we need to have healthcare, which is why it matters who is in the White House. Why, why you should be voting, on and on and on. Because having access to regular care will save your life.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Right. And, and, and me, you know, I was in the Hamptons. I was just having a good time and, and, um, and my, no, and I say that because I planned, I was there and I was like, "I'm just gonna stay another few weeks." And, and then something just hit me one day that, Tina, you better go back and get that, that biopsy. You are being very irresponsible right now. So I went home, you know, I went home, I think, two days later and my kids were like, "Stay, don't go back." And, and, you know, I went and thank God I went. Because I would have came back and got busy and then it would have been another year. And that's what happens to us. So please, please do that.

• 1:09:39Michelle Obama?

  We're coming to a close, but I wanna, I know, I know, I know. I'm looking at the clock going, "You lie, you clock, you're a lie."

• 1:09:50Michelle Obama?

  But I've got some fun, rapid-fire closing things I wanna do. But Tina, I want you to talk a little bit about sort of finding your wisdom, or acknowledging your wisdom. Because there's, you know, there's so much wisdom in this book. But I know you're like me, and I've said this before, but at 61, I am just now willing to recognize that maybe, just maybe, I know something about something.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  I know, it's true.

• 1:10:32Michelle Obama?

  And I'm just wondering how you feel about, why does it take women so, why does it take us so long as women to own our wisdom?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I think, you know, it's funny because I said, people approached me about a book before, and even when they approached me this time, which was different,

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  I kept saying, "I'm not telling y'all my kids' business." So if that's why they wanna do a book deal, then I don't wanna do it because I'm not gonna share other people's stories. I'm not gonna tell their business. But just the fact that I didn't feel like my story was worthy, or that anybody wanted to hear about my story is crazy. And I had to, you know, go in, and when I first talked to them, I was like, "I'll do a book on behind-the-scenes things that happened, but I'm not gonna do a memoir." And, you know, Kevin O'Leary is somewhere in the audience too, and I would love for him to stand up. He is my collaborator.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  And you know, when you write a book, your collaborator is so important because he's the person that went and found all this. History on Weeks Island and Galveston and, you know, he taught me some things and he fact checks things because, you know, in your brain, I'm like, oh, but I was 19 so and so. And he's like, no, that didn't happen then.

• 1:11:59Michelle Obama?

  Really?

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Because he's fact checking.

• 1:12:01Michelle Obama?

  And then you argue with him like, no, you don't know.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  But in talking to him at first, he was the one that encouraged me to just be more open. He's like, Ms. Tina, people would love to hear about that. And I was like, you think so? And he's like, yes. And we, you know, this book was a thousand pages. We had to take 500 pages out. Can you imagine? So, so many more stories and... Part two.

• 1:12:27Michelle Obama?

  We got part two.

• 1:12:30Michelle Obama?

  Are the publishers in the house?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  But yeah, so I didn't even think that people would want to hear. I was like, they're just gonna want to hear about my kids. But it's so much of the book that you go through before you even hear about my kids.

• 1:12:46Michelle Obama?

  That's why you're number one on the bestseller list.

• 1:12:53Michelle Obama?

  Well, I am grateful that you have shared your story with us. But before we close, let's do something fun.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:02Michelle Obama?

  I would love that. We're gonna have some fun in the spirit of the IMO podcast. We are gonna do a special, in my opinion, rapid fire segment. I'm gonna call out a few prompts and I want you to tell all of us the first things that come to mind.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:17Michelle Obama?

  The ultimate style icon is?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Oh, God, it's too many to... I mean, I have so many style icons back from the 40s. You know, just, I don't know, Diana Ross. Well, I think that's a good one. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, like...

• 1:13:39Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:13:41Michelle Obama?

  But that's too many. Diana Ross Cher. I take those. I think we, I think those are, those are good. I think that. A good date must include?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Uh, good music.

• 1:13:52Michelle Obama?

  Oh.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Some dancing.

• 1:13:54Michelle Obama?

  Do you, do you have a song that just gets you like, mm?

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Um, you know, my favorite song is, is For the Love of You.

• 1:14:03Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  By the Iceleaves.

• 1:14:05Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  That's just the best.

• 1:14:06Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yes. The best soul food dish is?

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:14:13Michelle Obama?

  It's not your I am all.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Just soul food, some good old cabbage and mac and cheese.

• 1:14:20Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  And greens, yeah.

• 1:14:21Michelle Obama?

  You know, this is like true, there is no soul food dish.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:14:25Michelle Obama?

  Soul food is an experience.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  It is an experience.

• 1:14:28Michelle Obama?

  It's many dishes.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Yes, it's love.

• 1:14:30Michelle Obama?

  All right, the best show on TV right now is?

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Oh, God, the best.

• 1:14:35Michelle Obama?

  I know, that's hard.

• 1:14:38Michelle Obama?

  Are you, do you even have time to watch TV these days?

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  Not a lot. I have to be honest, I haven't watched it a lot. Um, but I love Sisters.

• 1:14:47Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  I love Sisters because it is just, it's some real stuff on there. Tyler just gets it, you know?

• 1:14:55Michelle Obama?

  Tyler tends to do that.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  He does that. It's real. And you know, people can talk all that stuff, but I'm like, I know somebody just like every one of those girls.

• 1:15:06Michelle Obama?

  Uh, the best movie ever made?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Ooh. Cooley High.

• 1:15:12Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yes. You know, I still, you know, when he gets beat up and in, under, up under the L.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Don't you cry?

• 1:15:22Michelle Obama?

  I cry every time.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  I'm like, I've seen this 75 times, but I still cry.

• 1:15:27Michelle Obama?

  Do the young people even know what we talking about?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  No. You, listen, you have to give up your black card if you ever seen Cooley High.

• 1:15:34Michelle Obama?

  If you ever seen Cooley High.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Hand it over, put it on the stage. Hand it over. Your black card.

• 1:15:38Michelle Obama?

  And the five heartbeats.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:41Michelle Obama?

  Okay, a green flag, a green flag invading, uh, that's often overlooked, a green flag.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Oh God, a green flag. Um, I think, uh, just someone being, for me, being a gentleman.

• 1:16:00Michelle Obama?

  Mm.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Michelle Obama?

  Just being kind.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, being kind.

• 1:16:03Michelle Obama?

  Just straight up kind. Forget how much you make, just be kind.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 1:16:07Michelle Obama?

  One thing that's changing in your life right now for the better?

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Is I am really feeling myself right now.

• 1:16:18Michelle Obama?

  Woo!

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  I'm feeling myself.

• 1:16:22Michelle Obama?

  Woo! I like that.

• 1:16:26Michelle Obama?

  Um, an underrated beauty hack?

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Um, probably, um, this ice thing. Have y'all tried the ice?

• 1:16:40Michelle Obama?

  Will you put your face in the ice?

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Yes, put your face in the ice, or you can get an ice cube. Blue taught me this.

• 1:16:45Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  You take the ice cube.

• 1:16:47Michelle Obama?

  It's the babies.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  And it tightens up your... Yeah, they get all the hacks on for YouTube.

• 1:16:52Michelle Obama?

  So how long do you have to put the ice on your face?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Well, you can take an ice cube, well, actually Jules taught me that. He was like, Grandma, you don't have to put your face in it.

• 1:17:00Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Because that's really hard, but just use the ice cube, and it kind of lifts up stuff. You know, at my age, you gotta try everything.

• 1:17:07Michelle Obama?

  I'm gonna... First of all, Tina, you are beautiful. You have not aged one iota.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:17:17Michelle Obama?

  I mean, you are looking so good. So tell us, as we close, what does it truly mean to be a patriarch?

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  To be a patriarch?

• 1:17:26Michelle Obama?

  To be a patriarch.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I think to love unconditionally your children, your grandchildren, the people that you have in your life, and to be respectful, and, um, just, you know, a father figure to people. That it's not all about being about yourself, like an unselfishness.

• 1:17:51Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  That's what a patriarch... I mean, you know, handling things.

• 1:17:54Michelle Obama?

  Handling, handling things. And Tina Knowles is handling some things, y'all. This... I just want to say thank you for inviting me

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Oh, please.

• 1:18:08Michelle Obama?

  to open your book tour.

• 1:18:12Michelle Obama?

  I...

• 1:18:14Michelle Obama?

  You know, there's so much about you that I knew, but I learned so, so much more about you in these pages that makes me just love you so much more. Y'all, we didn't even, we just barely scratched the surface. There are so many good stories in this book. There's so much wisdom that you spit out and with this level of humor and honesty, you will be cracking up, you will be crying, you will feel renewed and you will walk away learning something, which is what IMO is all about. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your candor. And I'll see you on tour, right? I see you out there. I love you, everyone.

• 1:18:57Michelle Obama?

  Everyone, big hand for Tina Knowles. Thank you.

• 1:21:10Craig Robinson?

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• 1:21:52Craig Robinson?

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• 1:22:12Speaker 01

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