Pod Insights IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson The Lessons Our Mother Taught Us About this episode On today’s episode, Michelle and Craig open up about how they’ve managed grieving their beloved mother, Marian Robinson. An IMO listener asks Michelle and Craig for help in navigating painful family dynamics after losing her dad. Michelle and Craig share how their parents helped them manage grief from a very young age, and offer advice to the listener for finding meaning and connection after significant loss.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Michelle Obama? She qualifies for state.
0:01 Craig Robinson? And had to go down to Champaign.
0:03 Michelle Obama? Illinois.
0:04 Craig Robinson? And that's when she decided to tell us.
0:06 Michelle Obama? A note. She didn't tell us.
0:08 Craig Robinson? Yes.
0:08 Michelle Obama? She left a note saying, by the way, if you're wondering where I am, I'm in Champaign, Illinois, running in a track meet.
0:16 Craig Robinson? And I thought I ought to tell you in case I fell.
0:19 Michelle Obama? Just I had dropped dead.
0:25 Craig Robinson? She is a mess.
0:26 Michelle Obama? But she went on to qualify for nationals.
0:28 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
0:32 Michelle Obama? This episode is brought to you by DoorDash, your door to making mom's day even from far away.
0:40 Craig Robinson? All righty, look at us.
0:42 Michelle Obama? I know.
0:43 Craig Robinson? One on one today.
0:44 Michelle Obama? Yeah, it's just you and me. We figured, let's ditch the guests.
0:49 Michelle Obama? Let's just talk mono a mono. Or is it mono a womano?
0:56 Craig Robinson? So how you feeling?
0:57 Michelle Obama? You know, I'm feeling, I'm feeling pretty good. I mean, we've, you know, we've had a year.
1:04 Craig Robinson? Yes.
1:05 Michelle Obama? So it's, you know, as many people know, we lost our mom. And, you know, just kind of sorting through how you feel.
1:18 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
1:19 Michelle Obama? Because the first instinct is to say, I feel good. I'm great. I'm good.
1:24 Craig Robinson? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I'm glad we're doing a show on grief because, as you remember, I mean, mom was so beloved by so many people from your orbit, which is gigantic, and my orbit and her own orbit. You know, we spent a lot of time managing everybody else's grief and we really haven't talked much about our own grief. So I'm happy we're able to do this now.
1:54 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah, you put it well that you find yourself managing other people's grief.
2:01 Michelle Obama? Because particularly with somebody like mom that was in her own right amazingly, after all these years, she was a famous person. She meant, she meant a lot to so many people, people who knew her well. You know, friends who grew up with us from the time we lived on Euclid Avenue when we were little kids to, you know, I got letters from heads of state and ambassadors and, you know, she was a, she became a world figure.
2:32 Craig Robinson? Amazing.
2:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
2:33 Craig Robinson? Just amazing.
2:33 Michelle Obama? That's a pretty amazing thing. And so when you've got somebody of note who means so much, right? And they, you lose them as a family, you, you are managing a process now, right? It becomes, okay, how do you create a memorial service that honors her? Which, and she was very clear on what she did and didn't want.
3:00 Craig Robinson? Yeah, our, the listeners should know that mom's been threatening to drop dead for 20 years.
3:05 Michelle Obama? Well, yeah, yeah.
3:06 Craig Robinson? Yeah, she was, she was, she has been preparing us for this. So she left very direct instructions on what she wanted and how she wanted things to be. And we had to take that into account when.
3:22 Michelle Obama? Yeah, take it into account, but I don't think mom, that she would ever own who she really was, right?
3:30 Craig Robinson? No, she would not.
3:31 Michelle Obama? So her original requests were just, you know, don't make it anything fancy. Just have a few people, you know, what, and, you know, unfortunately, her only surviving sister died only a few months before she did.
3:46 Craig Robinson? That's right.
3:47 Michelle Obama? And so mom's view was, and that was our Aunt Gracie. She said, well, what, you know, what Gracie had was lovely, you know? You just had family and a few people speak and, you know, and I'm just sitting there listening going, ma, there's no way, there's, there's no way we can, you know, we can get away with that. So there was also, I won't call it the stress, but. I was concerned about making sure that you, my brother, felt seen in our decisions to memorialize her because it becomes a production.
4:23 Craig Robinson? Yeah, yeah. And while that was very nice of you, I felt very much a part of it. You know, I thought, as we both know, mom wanted it, like, I don't want an hour and a half memorial. I think she was worried about the time. She was worried about the amount of money we spent on it. And she wanted to make sure that family was going to be involved. And you made sure all of that took place. And it was, it was, it was a wonderful memorial service. It was a little longer than she would have liked.
4:58 Michelle Obama? Oh, for sure.
4:59 Craig Robinson? But she would have enjoyed it if she were there. So that's what we, we talked about that.
5:04 Michelle Obama? Well, that was always how mom was. You know, mom was like, I don't want to fuss. I don't want to go. I don't want to travel. She was, you know, that was her beauty. She was mom, our mom was content with who she was and where she was.
5:18 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
5:19 Michelle Obama? And she found her happiness and joy where she was. So that also was like a double edged sword for her because in her process of being so content and so, don't worry about me, she would, you know, just sort of reflexively say no to everything, you know, throughout the whole eight years in the White House. First of all, she didn't want to come.
5:42 Craig Robinson? She didn't want to come in the first place.
5:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah, she didn't want to, she didn't want to move to the White House. Why would I want to live in the White House? I have a perfectly lovely house here on Euclid Avenue. So you fortunately were able to convince her that she wouldn't be moving for her, but she would be moving for her beloved granddaughters.
5:59 Craig Robinson? Yes.
6:00 Michelle Obama? And that finally sealed the deal. But then, once she got there, she was like, I don't need, I don't want Secret Service. I don't need this. I don't need that. I'm just going to be up in my suite of rooms. And we took a lot of trips over the years.
6:15 Craig Robinson? Right.
6:16 Michelle Obama? We did some amazing traveling, you know? We went to visit the Queen, spent time at Buckingham Palace. We were on the Great Wall of China, just us.
6:27 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
6:27 Michelle Obama? Because the wall was closed off to everybody else. We had visits with two popes, one at the Vatican. I mean, you know, we had a personal greet at the home of Nelson Mandela. That's when.
6:40 Craig Robinson? I know. My kids came.
6:42 Michelle Obama? Yeah. Avery and Leslie came on that because we tried to include them. But we generally did our travel, or my solo travel without Barack with the girls. We tried to do it in the summer on breaks so that we weren't ever pulling the girls out of school for travel. So we always had some major trips planned. And we, of course, you know, need mom to go. But it was always presented as a mom, do you want to go? Right? And if you asked her, do you want to go to China? Her response would be, why would I want to go to China? You know, you already got me here at the White House. I don't need to go to China.
7:25 Michelle Obama? So asking her what she wanted was never the approach. You had to tell her, Michelle need you.
7:32 Craig Robinson? Yes.
7:32 Michelle Obama? To go on this trip. The girls need you. Because while I was doing all my official stuff, you know, the girls needed a chaperone to do their stuff. And then once she realized that she wasn't going to take this trip for her, that she was doing it for us, then she could accept it. But then, once she got there, you know, wherever she was, she had a ball.
7:55 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
7:56 Michelle Obama? She was like, oh, my God, I'm going to the top of everything. I'm going to see every dome. I'm gonna, you know, she embraced it once she got there. But every trip, the answer was, no.
8:06 Craig Robinson? I know.
8:06 Michelle Obama? We went to Rome. And then later on, we went to Venice, you know, another year. And when we asked her about the Venice trip, she said, well, I've been to Italy.
8:16 Craig Robinson? I've been to Italy already.
8:17 Michelle Obama? And I was like, well, you know, Venice is very different. From Rome and she was like, well, I don't, you know, I don't need to go back to Italy. And I was like, why don't you just, why don't you just do this one for us, you know?
8:30 Craig Robinson? I, I maintain all of that. Her time at the White House, all the travel, having to care for the girls added years to her life because she was just sitting over on Euclid, you know, on the porch, smoking cigarettes and.
8:49 Michelle Obama? Cause she retired.
8:50 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
8:51 Michelle Obama? And then she said she, she, uh, she would probably retired sooner than she was ready. You know, that, that'd be one of her admonitions to people out there. It's like, well, if you, you know, don't just retire because you reach a certain age because she still had a lot of life. She still wanted to do, do work, but it was the dream of people of that generation is that you hit a certain age and if you can afford to retire, well, that's the thing you do.
9:17 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
9:18 Michelle Obama? But fortunately for me, she did retire for both of us because she was retired. She really was like our rock.
9:26 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
9:26 Michelle Obama? When it came to the kids.
9:28 Craig Robinson? Yeah. And I, and, and because you got her to do more, she would come out to visit us more because she felt like she had to even up the scorecard, right? Because she was spending more time with your girls and not our kids. And I was like, Mom, it's not, we're not counting. We'd love to have you out anytime you want, but we got to see her enough, which, which brings me to, you know, dad dying. So people should know our dad died 33 years ago.
9:58 Craig Robinson? So my oldest Avery wasn't born and none of your kids were born yet. We all knew we, he loved us. Him dying so early, that was devastating. It was devastating for both of us. It was really devastating for me. When mom died, mom did the same thing. She made sure she, all of her kids, all of her grandkids, all of her in-law, daughter-in-law, son-in-laws, all knew how much she felt about them. And so when mom died, while it was extraordinarily sad.
10:34 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
10:34 Craig Robinson? It wasn't as devastating.
10:36 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
10:37 Craig Robinson? And, uh, and I think managing the grief hasn't been as hard as it was when dad died. I mean, when dad died, you know. Everybody looked at me like Dad died.
10:51 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
10:52 Craig Robinson? Right? And it was so hard to manage that. Now, while we had to sort of manage more people when Mom died, this was, I really felt Mom's whole life and situation in death was the way she would have wanted it to be.
11:08 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
11:09 Craig Robinson? And that gives you some comfort.
11:10 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. Mom never wanted to, she didn't want to be a burden to us.
11:15 Craig Robinson? Right.
11:17 Michelle Obama? She wanted her independence. And so after we got out of the White House, the first thing she wanted to do was go back to Chicago. And we got her a condo so she'd be in a doorman building because she didn't sort of appreciate the fact that she was a famous person. She was well-known, you know? She's walking around with our faces. We have her face.
11:38 Craig Robinson? Yes.
11:39 Michelle Obama? So she is known. She can't, you know, even though she would try to...
11:42 Craig Robinson? She would wear a baseball cap?
11:43 Michelle Obama? Well, what she said she would do in the airport, if she would travel and somebody would come up and say, "You look just like Mrs. Robinson." And she'd say, "I get that a lot."
11:55 Craig Robinson? Straight up. She would think that wasn't lying because she didn't say...
11:59 Michelle Obama? "I get that a lot." But all she wanted to do was have her own space. And so as she aged and, you know, became increasingly sicker,
12:17 Michelle Obama? she really resisted, you know, wanting, because we were both ready and in a position to scoop her up and have her live with us and provide her with care. And fortunately, I got a lot of months with her because she was with me in Hawaii for this last winter. And I got to take care of her and pamper her and have all the support she needed. And she resisted at every turn.
12:48 Michelle Obama? You know, she didn't want, you know, the physical therapist. She didn't want the nurses' aid. She did, so I had to tell her, I need them. You know, but she, all of that was because she didn't want to feel like a burden. And she didn't want to just wither away. She wanted to, she wanted to die at her prime. And that's, you know, just to make clear, that's the kind of stuff that mom prepared us for at a very early age. She was like, I do not want to be here forever to the point where I don't have my memory. I can't move around. I can't do for myself. She's like, that's not my idea of living.
13:29 Craig Robinson? Right.
13:30 Michelle Obama? And she didn't have that.
13:31 Craig Robinson? No, no, but she wasn't gonna let her, she was gonna smoke cigarettes and drink wine and eat bad food until she.
13:40 Michelle Obama? Until she.
13:41 Craig Robinson? Until she dropped dead.
13:42 Michelle Obama? Until she couldn't.
13:42 Craig Robinson? Yes, yes, to use her term. And folks should know when we say drop dead, that is a.
13:48 Michelle Obama? That's her term.
13:49 Craig Robinson? That's, that, that, that is a, a comfort term for the, for the Robinsons and the Obamas, because that's what my mom always called dying, dropping dead.
13:58 Michelle Obama? Dropping dead. It's like.
14:00 Craig Robinson? You know, he just dropped dead the other day.
14:02 Michelle Obama? It's just like, okay.
14:03 Craig Robinson? He just dropped dead.
14:03 Michelle Obama? Can we find another way to phrase it?
14:05 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
14:05 Michelle Obama? But I, I think, you know, what mom did for us when it came to managing grief from as long as I could remember is that she and dad were never afraid to talk about death. Right? Just like every other topic in our household.
14:26 Craig Robinson? Right.
14:26 Michelle Obama? You know, they parented with an openness, with a philosophy that your kids were smart and capable and that if you phrase things the right way and did it at the level that they could understand, there really wasn't anything that you couldn't talk to your kids about in terms of just broad topics. I mean, they weren't the kind of, we're best friends kind of parents. It was like, no, you're a child, but we can have conversations.
14:55 Craig Robinson? Right.
14:55 Michelle Obama? And, and we will encourage questions. About everything that included death and aging. Because we did grow up with a big extended family. We grew up with all four of our grandparents. Our, our parents each had big families, lots of brothers and sisters on both sides. We had lots of cousins. And within any extended family, over the course of your life, people die. People get sick.
15:24 Craig Robinson? Right.
15:24 Michelle Obama? People age.
15:25 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
15:26 Michelle Obama? But I, you know, we sell that to say that we were introduced to aging and grief.
15:33 Craig Robinson? And talking about it.
15:34 Michelle Obama? And talking about it through our, our whole lives, which is the beauty of growing up in an extended family, right? Because you, maybe things don't happen in your nuclear unit, but you'll see it. If you have a big enough family and folks are around long enough, you're, you're going to be confronted with it. And I think that our family, or our parents at least, they just had a clear eyed view towards life and death.
16:05 Michelle Obama? So while dad's death was harder because it was unexpected, and I think for dad, I mourned less for me than for what he'd missed.
16:17 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
16:18 Michelle Obama? Because I thought, the thing I felt was like, here is this man who sacrificed everything for us, who worked every day of his life, who like was a role model to so many people, who, who gave us this amazing foundation, but he didn't get to see it, like the fruits of it.
16:40 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
16:40 Michelle Obama? Like, I don't think he would have been surprised how our lives turned out. Oh, I think he could have, but I always think, what would dad have said?
16:47 Craig Robinson? He would have been enjoying that ride.
16:49 Michelle Obama? At the White House, you know?
16:51 Craig Robinson? Man, and, and he would have been the one, I'm going to Italy. I'm going to the, the Great Wall of China. I'm going to all these different places.
17:01 Michelle Obama? And I think about the fact that he didn't see you go to, you know, fulfill your basketball dreams. He didn't get to meet his grandchildren who he would have adored and who would have adored him. That's, I'm like, he shouldn't have missed that.
17:20 Craig Robinson? Right.
17:20 Michelle Obama? Right?
17:21 Craig Robinson? Right.
17:22 Michelle Obama? So I grieve for him, but I was good, right? Because mom and dad set us up.
17:30 Craig Robinson? Right.
17:31 Michelle Obama? To be able to exist with and without them. And I think that that's one of the bravest things you can do as a parent, is prepare your kids for your absence. Not to prepare them for you being there every single second of their lives, because you don't have control over that. And so, you know, I think about that. With the girls, and I, with Malia and Sasha, I have those conversations with them all the time. It's like, you know what I think. You know, I have said it enough times. You, we have gone through the scenarios. We talk all the time.
18:14 Michelle Obama? So if something happened to me, you're gonna be okay. You know, you already have those messages. So I don't, I don't want them to be afraid of me dying. I want them, you know, be sad, but.
18:27 Craig Robinson? A little bit sad.
18:28 Michelle Obama? You know, but know that you, you got this.
18:31 Craig Robinson? Right.
18:33 Michelle Obama? And that's a peace of mind. And you don't get that if you don't talk about grief. If you don't talk about death, you know? And I just think a lot of us don't, you know, at least in America, we struggle with looking at grief head on.
18:53 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
18:54 Michelle Obama? As the real thing, that it is, the inevitable thing, the, the rewards of a fruitful life if you're lucky.
19:01 Craig Robinson? Right.
19:01 Michelle Obama? Right? And then sometimes you gotta just,
19:06 Michelle Obama? you just gotta be okay with the hurt, you know?
19:10 Craig Robinson? Yeah, I remember mom saying when dad died, that you guys are gonna be really upset for a while. But you gotta go to work.
19:21 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
19:21 Craig Robinson? You gotta go to work. Cause I, and I remember going to work and, and my coworkers are like, what are you doing here?
19:27 Michelle Obama? It's like, I was told.
19:28 Craig Robinson? Yeah, my mom told me I had to come to work.
19:31 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm, yeah.
19:32 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
19:39 Michelle Obama? Hi. This Mother's Day episode is a special one for both of us and I know for all of you. And it's brought to you by DoorDash.
19:49 Craig Robinson? Yeah, Meech, you remember what Dad used to do for Mom on Mother's Day? And you reminded me of this. I had almost forgotten about it. But Dad used to go shopping for Mom on Mother's Day at Carson Perry Scott and pick out-
20:05 Michelle Obama? An outfit for-
20:06 Craig Robinson? A wardrobe.
20:08 Michelle Obama? Or a couple of outfits, a full, you know, top, blazer, you know, skirt, all of it. Yeah, and he took such great pride in being able to do that for Mom because our mom was pretty, very frugal. She never shopped for herself. She was a beautiful woman and Dad loved to see her in nice things. And really, the only time she got something new was when he went shopping for-
20:35 Craig Robinson? That's right. And I didn't get to really understand how meticulous he was in his decision-making until he got to a point where he couldn't go by himself.
20:46 Michelle Obama? Yeah, because folks know our dad had MS.
20:48 Craig Robinson? Everybody knows that story. And so I would drive him and we'd get to the women's department and be met by this wonderful woman, I wish I could remember her name, who worked at Carson's. Then she'd take him and wheel him back into the section and she had things set up for him. And he would pick something right off the mannequin sometimes. And then he would go over and he'd feel the material and it was just, it just brings back such a wonder.
21:14 Michelle Obama? And then he'd go and get it gift wrapped-
21:15 Craig Robinson? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
21:16 Michelle Obama? At the gift wrap section at the time that they did gift wrapping.
21:19 Craig Robinson? Yeah, because we didn't gift wrap. We always got it done at the store, yeah. But I know you guys did some really cool stuff at the White House, too.
21:27 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. When we were in the White House for those eight years, one of the things we did every Mother's Day is that we hosted military moms and the wives of our military for Mother's Day. We would usually host a lovely tea either- Set in the Blue Oval Room or in the East Room. And we made it pretty with, you know, all the china and beautiful flowers on the tables. Trying to make it really special to honor those moms, the Blue Star and Gold Star Moms that serve our country and sacrifice. And we would allow them to bring their kids because we also knew that Mother's Day people,
22:10 Michelle Obama? a lot of mothers were, especially if their spouses were deployed, they have their kids. So we would set aside a different set of activities in the State Room for the kids where they could go and make what would be surprise treats for their mothers. So they would do some crafting with the staff or bake with our executive baking chef, Suzie. And they would, you know, have something special so that after the luncheon, they'd come in, you know, run in and give their moms this gift that they made at the White House. And Mom always made it a point to attend that, even though she didn't do a lot of official
22:49 Craig Robinson? She didn't do much. She didn't do much stuff, but she always talked about how much she enjoyed that with you and with the other mothers. And this Mother's Day, sending flowers is a classic and simple way to brighten Mom's Day. Whether she loves lilies or tulips, you can send her her favorite flowers right to her, no matter where you are in the world. DoorDash partners with local florists who put care into every arrangement, just like these beautiful ones here from Pasadena Butterflies and Pasadena Floral Design. Even after being impacted by the devastating L.A. fires in January, they're rebuilding and still bringing joy in their community with flowers.
23:32 Craig Robinson? Everyone wants to make sure their flowers arrive fresh and beautiful. With DoorDash, every order is handled with care to make sure your gift is just right because moms deserve the best.
23:44 Michelle Obama? Thank you, DoorDash, for presenting today's special episode.
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24:54 Speaker 02 Wayfair, every style, every home.
25:02 Craig Robinson? Well, this might be a good time to go to our question.
25:07 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I even forgot we had a question.
25:09 Craig Robinson? Yeah, I know. This is, this is...
25:14 Michelle Obama? We went real in.
25:15 Craig Robinson? We went in for a bit, but...
25:18 Michelle Obama? Let's, let's take a, let's take a listen to our question.
25:22 Speaker 03 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Madeline and I'm 28 years old. Last year, my dad passed away after a two-year fight with cancer. He was just 57. My parents were still together and happily married when he died. And I have two brothers that I'm pretty close with. My family was always very tight-knit and enjoyed each other's company. We had no major issues. That said, I was especially close with my dad. My brothers had a good relationship with him, but for me, my dad was my guy. We were very similar people. He was also loved by so many other people. And spending time with him was so easy and felt like home. He was basically the number one person I would not have wanted to lose.
26:05 Speaker 03 I never had a bad relationship with my mom, but we've had a harder time finding her footing since my dad died. And I think because she had a mom who never fully encouraged her independence, and she married my dad when she was so young. Losing him really was like having a rug pulled from under her. My brothers and I were especially surprised when she started dating so shortly after he died. She seemed like she was distracting herself rather than grieving him or grieving with us. In the meantime, I've never felt further apart from my brothers. I thought we might talk more after this happened, not less. But it's like we're intentionally keeping our distance. They're also both married and have partners they can talk about this with.
26:49 Speaker 03 I'm single and suddenly feel even more alone. It's like I've gone from someone with one of the best families to being someone without much of a family at all. I never really imagined my dad's death could so swiftly destabilize our entire family structure. How could losing the same person we all loved have created such a powerful wedge among us? How can I begin to feel less alone among them in my grief? And how can we begin to rebuild the support and closeness we implicitly had as a family while my dad was still around? Thanks, Madeline.
27:24 Craig Robinson? True.
27:25 Speaker 03 Yeah. That's tough.
27:27 Craig Robinson? Yeah, that's a tough one. But I'm thinking about a couple of things in that. And the first one is
27:39 Craig Robinson? her brothers handling the grief differently than she does. And, boy, if there was any thing that I've learned with our parents passing away is that
27:56 Craig Robinson? different people handle grief differently. And it's almost like a relationship. You have to come to people's grief and meet them where they are, right? And the first bit of advice I'd give Madeline, in my opinion, would be...
28:20 Craig Robinson? Help your brothers grieve the way they need to grieve. While I know you're going through your own troubles, sort of,
28:32 Craig Robinson? let them grieve the way they need to. And it might be silently.
28:39 Craig Robinson? You know?
28:39 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. Well, and one of the things you and I have learned, we've shared with the world our stories of our upbringing and our relationships with our parents. And in doing that, as close as we are and as close of a family as we are, there are ways that I saw
28:59 Craig Robinson? Right.
29:01 Michelle Obama? our parents and certain interactions completely differently
29:05 Craig Robinson? Right.
29:05 Michelle Obama? than you did. You know, we're in the same household. It wasn't like there were a bunch of kids. We weren't raised differently. But, you know, the thing Madeline has to realize is that she was very close to her father and felt a certain way. She probably has absolutely no idea what kind of relationships or set of feelings her brothers had.
29:26 Craig Robinson? Right.
29:27 Michelle Obama? Because if they haven't talked about it, right? Words exchanged, birth order sometimes makes one kid feel unseen by the parent who saw you so clearly. And also with the gender dynamic, two sons versus a daughter. So, you know, and if you don't talk to your brothers and and find out, how did you feel? How did you feel about our father? What were your experiences with our father? Is there anything that I'm missing that makes, that is causing your grief to be different? Other than the fact that we all grieve differently?
30:14 Michelle Obama? I would just, you know, encourage Madeline to, you know, not take this too personally. Because it may be that the distance and the difference in mourning could be explained by a difference in relationship. If they're not talking. Then she won't know. If there's no communication at all, and it's causing her pain, I would say that it's important for her to find ways to reach out. Not to force them to grieve the way she is. I think what she, she may have to be the convener now.
30:59 Michelle Obama? Right? Because if their, her father served that role for the family, and he's gone, then somebody's got to step up and be it. And that's sort of the darn thing about being a grown up. It's like, when you lose your parents, you lose the, you know, you're next up.
31:20 Craig Robinson? Yeah, right.
31:21 Michelle Obama? You know, and I guess if anything with mom's loss, I think that that, I thank God you're my big brother. And I have a husband who's older because Barack was saying, you know, well, you're next up. And I was like, I'm not really ready to be next up. So I told him, you're next up. And Craig is next up. I delegate that power to you. Because it's a little, you know, that, that's when you, that's really when you become an adult, is when your parents are not in that spot of managing and maintaining. But that's going to happen at some point where each of us in our own lives have to, we, we become the parent. We become the convener. We become the, the glue. You know?
32:06 Michelle Obama? And maybe that's daunting for Madeline to kind of, no, maybe you're, maybe you're next up, kid. If it's important to you, because it may not be important to your brothers, especially if they have their own families and their own traditions.
32:19 Craig Robinson? Yeah, and, and that's what I was going to say. Because this gets back to her statement about the family's now destabilized because the stabilizing influence is gone.
32:30 Craig Robinson? And she has to remember that these two guys, they've got, they're starting their own families and she isn't. And she talks about not having any kids. And if she feels like it's being destabilized, she might have to step up and say, okay, I'm the one, I'm, I'm the anchor here. And that's, those are big shoes to fill.
32:52 Michelle Obama? It is. Yeah, they are very big shoes to fill. And, you know, now that you think about it, when you think about the loss of a parent, like what you, you know, it's a major shift in your life. Were your parents?
33:08 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
33:09 Michelle Obama? You're, you know, I don't care how old you get.
33:12 Craig Robinson? Right.
33:12 Michelle Obama? Mom and dad or mom and dad.
33:13 Craig Robinson? Right.
33:14 Michelle Obama? You know, I, you know, even when I was taking care of mom, you know, it's like, I still gotta listen to her, you know? I can sort of boss her around, but in the end, she's my mother.
33:25 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
33:25 Michelle Obama? There's a comfort level in that. And knowing that no matter how wise or experienced I am in the world, mom was, mom always knew more.
33:37 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
33:38 Michelle Obama? It's like, even if that wasn't true, it was just a good feeling that, ah, let me go. Let me, let me, let me, let me go talk to my mommy. You know?
33:49 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
33:49 Michelle Obama? And then that's gone for the first time in your life. That, you know, that's gonna throw Madeline.
33:56 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
33:57 Michelle Obama? That's a, that's a big dose. And it's a big dose for all of us, especially if you, if your parents didn't prepare you for that. If they didn't reinforce in you the maturity and the capability that you have of stepping into those shoes or making the choice not to step into it.
34:14 Craig Robinson? Mm hmm.
34:15 Michelle Obama? Because that may be, maybe that's the daunting thing for Madeline, that she doesn't wanna be the glue. She not ready, you know? Um, and that, that's okay too. But she can't mourn it. If other people aren't filling the gap and she doesn't want to.
34:33 Craig Robinson? Right.
34:33 Michelle Obama? It may just be the way that it is for now.
34:37 Craig Robinson? The, the next evolution of the family.
34:39 Michelle Obama? Mm hmm.
34:39 Craig Robinson? Right.
34:40 Michelle Obama? It may be, but. I would just, you know, I would urge Madeleine to fight for the family, you know?
34:50 Craig Robinson? Mm hmm.
34:51 Michelle Obama? Because she, she, right now, she feels like an unmoored ship in the middle of the ocean. And I feel for her because that's the, that's sadly, the, the trend in this culture now, that people feel alone.
35:07 Craig Robinson? Mm hmm.
35:07 Michelle Obama? And they don't have connection to family or friends. And so if Madeleine doesn't have her own community, which I would encourage her, whether her fathers were alive, this is why I say people have to build their kitchen tables. They have to spend a lifetime cultivating relationships within their family and outside of their families. Right? Because not everybody gets along with their family. You know, not everybody lives near their family, but you do need that support. And I would hate to think that in the midst of her loss of her father, her best friend, that she's got no one, that she went from having a rock to being alone. I don't, I don't want that for her.
35:49 Craig Robinson? Right.
35:49 Michelle Obama? So if she doesn't have that in her own community, then I'm like, then reach out to your brothers and figure out how to start rebuilding it.
36:00 Craig Robinson? Mm hmm.
36:01 Michelle Obama? And it may take time.
36:02 Craig Robinson? It may take time because we're, we're lucky. We've been close since we've been little.
36:06 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
36:07 Craig Robinson? Right? You and I have been close.
36:08 Michelle Obama? But we work at it too.
36:09 Craig Robinson? But we do, we, we, we work hard at it and.
36:12 Michelle Obama? This podcast.
36:15 Craig Robinson? The perfect vehicle.
36:16 Michelle Obama? This is a good way for.
36:18 Craig Robinson? The perfect vehicle.
36:19 Michelle Obama? Me to make sure that I see him on a regular basis. Let's do a show.
36:23 Craig Robinson? Although it's, it's, it's kind of hurt our phone game because we're saving everything.
36:28 Michelle Obama? It's like, don't tell me anything. We got taping next week.
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37:51 Craig Robinson? One of the other issues that Madeline had in her
37:56 Michelle Obama? Letter.
37:57 Craig Robinson? Letter to us was that her, her mother started dating right away. This is something we didn't have to deal with.
38:05 Michelle Obama? Oh, my God, yeah. Mom was so nice.
38:08 Craig Robinson? Mom, our mother, not only did she not date, she, she might've gone on one or two dates.
38:14 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm. Yeah, her, her theory was like, all these men are old, and all they want is somebody to feed them and give them their medicine.
38:22 Craig Robinson? And take care of them.
38:23 Michelle Obama? And she's like, and I did. The only person I was going, the only man I was going to do that for was your father. I was like, okay, Mom. All right. Yeah, so we, we had the opposite.
38:33 Craig Robinson? We had the opposite, but she's dealing with the fact that the person who was her main guy is gone. And
38:41 Michelle Obama? And then
38:42 Craig Robinson? And then his wife is out dating.
38:44 Michelle Obama? Right, yeah, that must burn.
38:45 Craig Robinson? That's gotta hurt.
38:47 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
38:47 Craig Robinson? That's gotta hurt.
38:48 Michelle Obama? Well, it's probably, she's probably pissed.
38:50 Craig Robinson? And, and all I could, I, I want, Madeline, you have to, this is, it could be a form of grieving.
38:57 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
38:59 Craig Robinson? Or it could be a form of relief.
39:02 Michelle Obama? Mm hmm. Yeah, she doesn't know, she may not have known her parents' relationship.
39:06 Craig Robinson? You don't know unless you talk to your mom about it. And to get back to your point about communication, it's gonna burn you until you talk to your mom and can let her know how you feel. That'll be part of your dealing with the grief.
39:23 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
39:24 Craig Robinson? But we didn't have to deal with that.
39:26 Michelle Obama? No, but Madeline points out in her letter, I mean, she makes an astute assessment that her mom was never lived her life alone.
39:36 Craig Robinson? Right.
39:37 Michelle Obama? You know, she married at a young age. So I think Madeline understands her mom, right? And so part of that understanding, I would encourage her to find the empathy in it, that maybe her mom's fast dating isn't a reflection of her love for her father.
39:53 Craig Robinson? Right.
39:54 Michelle Obama? But it's just that she doesn't know how to be alone. And there are a lot of people in the world who don't know how to be alone. But that doesn't mean they didn't love or treasure the person that they spent their lives with. Some people temperamentally are afraid to be alone or need a different kind of companionship. And as you said, that's her mother's way of handling the grief is to fill it quickly. Not saying that that's healthy, but that's what she's probably trying to do is fill that void very as quickly as she can. And it would be a shame if Madeline's disconnect with her mother is due to some judgment
40:38 Michelle Obama? that is, you know, lacking in empathy for where her mom is. And, you know, don't, don't, don't let that burn the bridge, you know? I can't imagine that her father would have wanted her mother alone and lonely for the rest of her life, even though our mom didn't date. That wasn't some wish that our father would have wanted. I think if Dad had had the opportunity, he would have encouraged Mom to date and find love again and to continue to build a life if she chose to do that.
41:13 Craig Robinson? Right.
41:13 Michelle Obama? Right?
41:13 Craig Robinson? Or at least we hope that.
41:15 Michelle Obama? We hope that, but I just know in that I don't think he would have expected her to, you know, that he would have asked that of her.
41:22 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
41:22 Michelle Obama? You know.
41:23 Craig Robinson? Well, I just don't think it's realistic and we, you know, we've got some friends who are dealing with that right now. And the dad passed away, the mom started dating really quickly and the kids aren't happy with it. And the grandkids aren't happy with it. And there's a couple of people who understand it, but they can't get it out of their heads that it happened so quickly. And my advice is, you know, stop thinking about the speed with which this happened and think about the joy that your mom can sort of replenish at this point.
42:07 Craig Robinson? And, but it's hard. It's hard to get that through to people.
42:11 Michelle Obama? Yeah, well, and as big and bad as I'm sitting here talking, I don't know how I would have felt if mom had started dating.
42:18 Craig Robinson? Well, I mean, but after a while, it's like, you know.
42:22 Michelle Obama? We wanted her to date, but if it had been the next month, I, you know.
42:27 Craig Robinson? Oh, yeah.
42:27 Michelle Obama? I think I might have been a little salty too.
42:30 Craig Robinson? We would have been surprised.
42:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
42:31 Craig Robinson? We would have been surprised.
42:33 Michelle Obama? Be like, well, where did he come from?
42:34 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
42:35 Michelle Obama? Where are you keeping this old dude, you know? Where'd you find him, mom? Although she could keep some secrets. Remember when she ran, started running.
42:50 Craig Robinson? Track meets.
42:51 Michelle Obama? Track meets.
42:52 Craig Robinson? And we didn't know about it.
42:54 Michelle Obama? In her retirement.
42:54 Craig Robinson? Yeah, she was in her 60s and started running in.
42:58 Michelle Obama? Sprint.
42:59 Craig Robinson? Track competitions.
43:01 Michelle Obama? Sprints.
43:01 Craig Robinson? 50, 50 yard dashes, 100 yard dashes.
43:05 Michelle Obama? The senior Olympics.
43:06 Craig Robinson? Yes, and she was wearing these skipped gym shoes. She didn't even have the right.
43:10 Michelle Obama? Grocery store gym shoes with no grip or anything.
43:14 Craig Robinson? The kind she get from Kmart.
43:16 Michelle Obama? And she was winning, winning.
43:17 Craig Robinson? Yeah, winning trophies, winning medals.
43:19 Michelle Obama? So in a period, this is, I guess, what she did instead of finding a man, she started running.
43:27 Craig Robinson? Running away from him.
43:28 Michelle Obama? Right, right. So she didn't tell us. She didn't tell us until she qualified for, it was state. So she went through all of this, qualified for city in her age group, came in first in the 50 yard dash in like the locals and then the citywide in Chicago.
43:45 Craig Robinson? Yes.
43:45 Michelle Obama? So this is a lot of people. This is not a little town.
43:47 Craig Robinson? Right.
43:48 Michelle Obama? She qualifies for state.
43:50 Craig Robinson? And had to go down to Champaign.
43:52 Michelle Obama? Illinois.
43:53 Craig Robinson? And that's when she decided to tell us.
43:55 Michelle Obama? A note. She didn't tell us. She left a note saying, by the way, if you're wondering where I am, I'm in Champaign, Illinois, running in a track meet.
44:05 Craig Robinson? And I thought I ought to tell you in case I fell.
44:07 Michelle Obama? Just I had dropped dead.
44:14 Craig Robinson? She is a mess.
44:15 Michelle Obama? But she went on to qualify for Nationals.
44:16 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
44:17 Michelle Obama? And she, that was when she lost. She fell.
44:20 Craig Robinson? She fell.
44:20 Michelle Obama? Because she got to Nationals and realized that all these other old runners were serious. Like they, they had trained. She hadn't trained. She got up from the kitchen table, put out her cigarette and started running.
44:34 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
44:35 Michelle Obama? In kid's shoes. And she wouldn't let us like, let's get you a trainer. Let's get you some real track shoes. She's like, that's why I didn't want you to know. I don't want your involvement. So she got down there and they all had their starting blocks and all this stuff. They, she, I think she had on a little T-shirt and some shorts and a windbreaker.
44:56 Craig Robinson? Running in a windbreaker.
44:57 Michelle Obama? But she wouldn't, didn't let us go. So anyway, that's, we digress, but mom would, mom could keep some secrets.
45:04 Craig Robinson? She could.
45:05 Michelle Obama? So maybe she did have a man for all we know. Anyway, Madeline, back to Madeline. Sorry, Madeline, lost track, but.
45:14 Craig Robinson? Yeah, we did lose track. So.
45:16 Michelle Obama? But yeah, um, don't let this.
45:21 Michelle Obama? Be the reason why your family falls apart after your father's passing. Because I, what I would urge Madeline to think about is what would her father want for his family? And we don't know him. She didn't describe him to us. But if he was the glue, as she says, then that meant that there was something glued together, that he glued together. He was the glue of a, of a unit that he valued enough to be the glue for. So that, without a clear directive, was his action in the world. His family was important to him. So I think, I want Madeline to think about how horrible her dad would feel
46:05 Michelle Obama? to think that his loss was the end of it. That, that he, and he alone, was the only thing keeping things together. He'd probably look at his little girl, his favorite, to say, hey, Madeline, or whatever her nickname was, you be the glue. You know, you know how to do this. You know your knucklehead brothers. They don't, they couldn't organize their way out of a paper bag. You know, they, they can't get Christmas together or, you know, have enough foresight. They've got young kids, you know. Why don't you get on the phone with them and figure out, you know, because it doesn't even take much for, for the glue. I mean, we don't live in the same cities.
46:47 Michelle Obama? I don't, I don't, I don't see you a lot often.
46:51 Craig Robinson? Right.
46:52 Michelle Obama? Because you're in Milwaukee, I'm in DC, you've got young kids, you know. I'm the former first lady, so sometimes coming to your house is a little bit of a hassle, even though I do, I even did pickup.
47:03 Craig Robinson? You did.
47:04 Michelle Obama? For the boys.
47:05 Craig Robinson? You did.
47:05 Michelle Obama? And they were happy to see me in the motorcade.
47:10 Michelle Obama? I was like, and I told my detail, we're doing pickup. We're gonna go to grammar school and pick up my nephews. And they were like, yes ma'am. So off we went.
47:21 Craig Robinson? Three SUVs later.
47:22 Michelle Obama? And, and, and 12 guys with guns.
47:29 Michelle Obama? But I don't, I don't get to do that often.
47:32 Craig Robinson? Right.
47:32 Michelle Obama? Uh, even though when we were in the White House, we always made sure you guys came to all the fun stuff that they could come to. But it's not like we had, that we even have time in. We don't live in the same city. Sometimes we go for weeks and it's a check in, right?
47:52 Michelle Obama? But-
47:52 Craig Robinson? But then the other weeks, it's like every other day.
47:54 Michelle Obama? If there's something to be said. So I would say to Madeline, it doesn't, it doesn't take, you know, you don't have to call every day.
48:03 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
48:03 Michelle Obama? You don't have to be together every Sunday. It's not the frequency of the interaction. It's the quality-
48:10 Craig Robinson? Right.
48:10 Michelle Obama? -of the interaction.
48:11 Craig Robinson? Yeah. So if we, if we wanted to give Madeline
48:16 Craig Robinson? a few pieces of advice, I like your, your advice that she can be, become the stabilizing force of the family.
48:23 Michelle Obama? Become the glue.
48:24 Craig Robinson? So become the glue. And I like the meeting your brothers where they are.
48:32 Michelle Obama? Everybody grieves differently.
48:33 Craig Robinson? Everybody grieves differently. And you know, we, what we left out that you and I talk about all the time since dad died is it just takes time.
48:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
48:44 Craig Robinson? Time, it gets better.
48:46 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
48:46 Craig Robinson? But it takes time and it's different time for different people. And it, it took me a long time-
48:53 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
48:53 Craig Robinson? -to get over dad's death. And while I'm not over mom's death, it, I feel more at peace with her, with the grieving timeline than I did with dad. So that's something, Madeline, that we want you to know, or want to make sure you're paying attention to, that this does get better. It does get better and you just have to weather the storm.
49:17 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
49:19 Craig Robinson? And then there was a third point that you made that I'm drawing a blank on that I should have written down because we're all over the place here.
49:25 Michelle Obama? I, I think it's just, um, and it's not just a message to Madeline or advice or our take on it is, don't be afraid to deal with grief, you know? Have the conversations while everybody is healthy, you know?
49:45 Michelle Obama? Don't let your grief surprise you because it's gonna happen. And especially for parents dealing with kids, kids can handle it if it's not done in a devastating way. I mean, mom was, could be a little harsh about it, but
50:01 Craig Robinson? She was dramatic about it, yeah.
50:03 Michelle Obama? Our way of joking and teasing in our family set us up for that, not to totally, you know, mess our head, mess with our heads, but
50:10 Craig Robinson? Right.
50:11 Michelle Obama? I think preparing your kids for your loss
50:19 Michelle Obama? is not a bad thing. It doesn't even mean that you have to talk about when mommy dies, but it's just getting them to a point where they understand the expectation, if something were to happen, is that I need you to keep living. And then do the work to help prepare them to be able to do that, that they feel secure in their own selves, that they don't feel overly dependent on you, that they understand that, you know, what lessons you expect them to know. You know, that's even before you get down to the specifics of what do people want when they die? And, you know, end of life, you know, kind of directives. I mean, that's sort of the lawyerly thing to do because you want to know all that so that you're not trying to manage that while you're grieving, you know?
51:05 Michelle Obama? Arguing with family members over whether somebody is cremated or what have you. It's better for the loved one, the deceased, to have made those decisions so that it eliminates the amount of tension and arguments that the survivors have to go through.
51:21 Craig Robinson? For sure, for sure, yeah.
51:24 Michelle Obama? But preparing your kids, if all goes well, you precede them. That's in the best possible scenario. So the question is, are your kids ready for you to precede them? And not when they're 10, but when they're 60 and 70. Because if you haven't dealt with this, age doesn't matter.
51:47 Craig Robinson? Right.
51:48 Michelle Obama? Right? I have friends who are struggling mighty, and they're 70 years old. They've got parents who are 90. You know, if you, if you aren't ready for it, it, it's gonna hit you. So help find a way to get your kids ready to move on with and without you. Um, I think that helped. I think that's helped us.
52:12 Craig Robinson? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and one last point. We didn't have to worry about this because we, like I said, have been close. But she could use this as an opportunity to get closer with her siblings.
52:26 Michelle Obama? Yep. And she needs it.
52:27 Craig Robinson? And she needs it.
52:28 Michelle Obama? She needs it. So be, be the glue.
52:31 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
52:32 Michelle Obama? Pick up the phone. And good luck, Madeline. You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Well, thanks. I'm glad you're, you're doing okay, little boy.
52:42 Craig Robinson? I'm glad you're doing okay.
52:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah, but we'll keep talking.
52:45 Craig Robinson? We will.
52:46 Michelle Obama? It's been soon. You know, that's the other thing. It ebbs and flows. There's some days when I'm great. And then there are other days when something happens and it hits me. I go to reach for the phone.
52:58 Craig Robinson? Man, you know, it's funny. Kelly used to talk to mom every Sunday. It was like her thing. It was, let me get the food ready for the week and who's coming in this week. And, and there was this thing. She would put her phone in her shirt and she'd be on the AirPods and she'd walk around on Sunday.
53:20 Michelle Obama? Talking to mom.
53:20 Craig Robinson? And the other day she was doing that. And I was thinking, ah, I wish she was talking to mom.
53:26 Michelle Obama? Talking to mom. Yeah.
53:28 Craig Robinson? So.
53:29 Michelle Obama? So.
53:30 Craig Robinson? Phew. Made it through.
53:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah. Way to go. Love you.
53:34 Craig Robinson? Love you too.
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