IMO Live: Swerving Through Life with Michelle and Craig

Live from South by Southwest in London, Michelle and Craig flip the script and interview each other! In a vulnerable and revealing conversation, they discuss their journeys through Chicago's South Side, law school, the Oval Office and share what they’ve learned about one another while working together. Plus, a lightning round of questions on beloved British traditions! Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Bravery makes you brave to try anything at any age. And I think for me, I've just gotten used to, okay, we're gonna do this. I mean, I lived in the White House. I was the first lady. That wasn't my plan. I had no training for that. Wasn't my idea.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Was not. But we figured it out. Figure if I can be first lady, I can do a podcast with my brother.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Hello, South by Southwest London. How y'all doing?

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Oh, Craig and I, we are thrilled to be here with all of you. A little over a year ago, we launched our podcast IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, my big brother, if you hadn't.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  But we launched it in South by Southwest Austin. And that was also the first time we did a live event. And we had so much fun, we thought we'd do it again here in London.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  But just to give you a sense of IMO, what we do, it provides a space for vulnerable and revealing conversations with some pretty amazing guests, some of whom are friends of mine.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Mostly her friends.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  And we talk about everything, love, friendship, family, careers, you name it. We've been there. And we hope that by sharing our stories and experiences, we might help someone facing similar challenges, or at the very least, to give folks a little boost throughout their day. And there aren't always clear answers. One of the things we say is that there's no one way to live this thing called life. But one thing that we do believe strongly is that connections can help. And that's really why we started Higher Ground Production, me and the guy Barack Obama. You've heard of him, my husband.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  We wanted to build a platform of programming that brings people together to explore different ideas and perspectives on how to get through life. And we are incredibly excited by several new podcasts that are joining the Higher Ground family. Talk Easy, which is a cool program, let me say this, two young sisters talking about culture, Stories from a Stranger, just to name a few, shows that lift up a range of new voices and new ideas and hopefully help people feel just a little less lonely. So today, Craig and I are gonna try something a little different.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  We usually have a guest, but we cut them out of the action. So we're gonna flip the script and we're gonna interview each other. You should be frightened.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  So, I'm not frightened, of course.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  But what do you guys think of that? Just me and him talking.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  But first of all, Craig Robinson, how are you doing?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  I'm doing really, really well.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  I have not seen you in a couple of weeks.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I know. I know. So, one of the fun things about doing this podcast is that we get to spend a lot of time together. And we used to only talk to each other on the phone because we lived far apart. And now, we see each other all the time, but don't talk on the phone because we're like, let's save that for the show.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  But for anyone who's read any of my books, or heard me speak, I talk a lot about the power of swerving through life and careers, being able to remain flexible and open to changes. And I learned a lot of swerving from my husband. He has set me off on a path where I've had to adjust. So he was my first swerve teacher, but one of my best role models in swerving is my big brother Craig. Because his career path, as well as mine, is anything but traditional. We've done a lot of swerving throughout our lives. And so, we're gonna talk about how we got where we are, because that's one of the questions

• 4:35Speaker 00

  that we get often from people who are trying to figure out their careers, who are trying to figure out life. And a lot of them are wondering, how did you guys get from the South Side of Chicago, from a working-class background, to sitting here and doing all the things that we've done over the course of our lives? So Craig, I want to start with you.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Just so that people get a little sense of your career trajectory, can you give folks a brief sense of what you've been doing in life to this point?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  I will. First of all, thank you all for being here. It's really exciting to be here. And you should know, I used to live in Manchester.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  How about that? Yes. I played basketball for what was then called the Manchester Giants. It was the start of my pro career. And the real beginning to the swerve, because when I was in college, I'm old enough where I didn't go to college to be a basketball player. I enjoyed playing, but I never thought I could be a professional. And then I got drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers. And next thing you know, I was trying out for that team. And when I got cut from that team, I came to Manchester and played. And I stayed, I lived in Manchester for two seasons.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  I came to visit one year. That was my first trip to England.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was your first trip to England. And then, while I was here, our team did pretty well. And I thought, you know, I could be a basketball coach. And I went back to visit Mish at Princeton and to see my old basketball coach. And I said to him, "Coach, I figured out what I want to do." And I said, "I want to be a coach." And he was like, "You don't want to be a coach. I'll tell you when to be a coach. Go get a job somewhere and coach later." And that's when I started my trip into finance. And I've worked in finance, investment banking for quite some time. And then after 14 years, I switched back into coaching.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  That's when I started my coaching career. And I did that for another 14 or so years. And then I worked in the NBA, in the front office, the National Basketball Association. And I did that for about five years. And then now I work at the Coaches Association, as well as I'm a podcast host now. So, that's a lot of swerving.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  It's a lot. It's a lot. How did you think about who you wanted to be when you grew up? How did you process it? What kinds of things did you think about?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  So I processed it by the people and things I was around, right? So my early role models were my parents, my mom and my dad. My mom was a housewife, and my dad worked for the city of Chicago. And then, the other people around me were uncles and aunts. And they worked as, you know, policemen, city workers, educators. So I always thought that that would be what I'd end up doing.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Because that's one of the things about figuring out who you want to be. You know, there's no way we're taught that. We just start making up things out of thin air. I know, I used to say, when I was 10 years old, that I wanted to be a pediatrician.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  But that's because I like kids. I mean, you base things off of things like that. And then when I was in Princeton, and I had to figure out what to do next, I was like, I don't like math, I read, I like to talk a lot, so I'll apply to law school. I mean, that's how I picked going to law school. Because there's really no way that we teach young people, you know, as they're growing up.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Well, certainly not.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  How to think about it.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Not 40 years ago. 40 years ago.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  We're old, y'all.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  40 years ago, it was sort of, go to college. And then, most of our...

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Parents and friends of parents didn't go to college. So it was like, go to college and get a better job than what we got. And that's, that's sort of what we did. But, but Meech, you've, you've had your share of transitions.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Can you tell the folks what you learned from your transitions?

• 9:09Speaker 00

  Well, um, you know, I did some, I, I tried to do the traditional checking the box thing because I was good at that, you know? I was a good student. I understood that if you got good grades, you went to college. From college, if you don't know what you're doing, you go to grad school. And I could check the boxes. I was good at that. Um, I could achieve in that way.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  But if that wasn't enough, because I had, didn't have any experiences, you know? I mean, I had summer jobs, babysat, did all that sort of stuff. But when I got to the law firm, and I worked at a big corporate firm in Chicago, uh, what you were supposed to do after Harvard Law School. And I got to that firm, great firm, and I realized, oh, my God, I don't like law. I don't like it at all. It wasn't even close. I was, and thank you to all the lawyers. I mean, no shade, but you know, it just wasn't for me. And I realized I didn't know anything about the law. I didn't have parents in the law.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  I'd never clerked, uh, I, I didn't, you know, I, only in my summer associate experiences, but that was very different because they were courting you during that time and not giving you real work. Um, so one of the things that I learned through the transition is that gaining experiences are more important than I thought they were. Because back then in college, we just went straight through. And now I know that I encouraged Malia and Sasha, and I encourage a lot of young people, do not go straight through. Don't be afraid to slow it down and have some experiences. If I were to do it again from college to law school or grad school, I would have done a gap year or two.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  And you were kind of leading the way. I mean, quite frankly, your time in Manchester, playing European pro ball was kind of like a really cool gap year, where you got some experiences, just being out in the world and working and learning about what you liked, what you were good at, not just, but not just what you were able to do well. Because that's all I did. I just pursued something that I could do well. And I didn't know anything about passion or purpose or, and the truth is, I didn't know what other careers were out there, other than the traditional careers, you know? You grow up, you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can be an engineer. There are like six things.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  And here I'm at Princeton, Harvard, and in my mind, I only know six things I can be. And I think a lot of young people are limited, um, because you got to get out in the world to see what else is out there. So that's one thing I learned. Was your decision to, um, go pro scary for you? I mean, because here you were at Princeton, and there's the pressure, especially in your class, your year, we, we graduated, you were 83, I was 85. Economically, the country was doing great, you know? And if you got out of college, a good school with a degree, you were going to make money.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  You could pretty much write your own ticket, which I know is not the same now, um, at least where we live in our country.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Was it scary for you to sort of see your peers going into finance and all those things while you were going to take this interesting leap into professional basketball? And how did you think about that decision?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  So probably not how most of you think I would have thought about it. Because it was scarier for mom.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Our, our mom.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Our mom was like, why on earth would you go all the way over there to play, just to play basketball? And it wasn't scary for me because as I progressed in the sport and got better, it was a dream that, oh, okay, maybe I can play professionally, so I wanted to go try it. And it's a tribute to my parents that they never held us back because of their own fear. So as scared as my mom was, they both were like, all right, go, go and do it. Now's the time to do it.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  So it was not a hard decision, um, for me to make at that time. Secondly, because mom and dad encouraged us to go to a place like Princeton as opposed to go on someplace else where you could get a good education, my dad always emphasized that one of the things you get from a good education are options and the ability to try things, which he didn't get a chance to do. You know, when you're a black man from the South Side of Chicago, growing up in the

• 14:23Speaker 01

  50s and the 60s, you got the post office, the army, you know, you have certain things that you're allowed to do. You don't get to travel to be a basketball player or work at Morgan Stanley or some other bank. So I felt really comfortable, and it helped that I came to England where everybody spoke English, just about. And really, really friendly, really friendly. So I have to mention that.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. Meech, I've been thinking about how overwhelming big life decisions can feel these days between the endless stream of information, social media, and that constant FOMO the kids talk about. Do you feel like people are overthinking things more than they used to? Or is it just harder to make a choice when we have so many options?

• 15:35Speaker 00

  No, I think it's a little bit of both. You know, I think with so much information coming in, we just have so much more to process. And, you know, there's only so much the human brain can take in. And, and then, yeah, we feel inundated with choices. We feel like there are too many options. So yeah, I agree. I think it's a little bit of both.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Hmm, I feel that, I feel that. With your public image, how do you tune all that out and actually make the big calls? Are you relying on a gut feeling? Or is it more about leaning on the people you trust?

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Well, there's a lot of gut that goes into it. You just get used to making hard decisions. You, you know, you, you start to trust your instincts, but most importantly is having a strong team. Um, you know, learning to let go, that I can't make every big decision, you know, by myself, and I shouldn't. So I surround myself with really smart people, um, that I can count on. I let go of a lot and trust that they're gonna, you know, do their job and bring me the information that I need to do my job. So I've just learned that it's, you know, it's no victory for me to do these things alone, making these big decisions alone.

• 16:51Speaker 01

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• 17:33Speaker 01

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• 18:15Speaker 00

  We have to take a moment to just give tribute to our parents. They were uniquely gifted in pushing us to do things that they wouldn't do themselves. And sometimes, we're parents now, and the hardest thing in the world to do is to let your kids try hard things. I think a lot of people wind up picking careers because they feel the pressure of parents wanting them to do something that feels safe and secure. A story that I tell often is during the Becoming Book Tour. I would do a lot of things in colleges, and I was sitting with a set of seniors who were

• 19:00Speaker 00

  graduating from Spelman College, a historically black school in the South in Atlanta. And this group of girls, they were about to graduate. They were excited but incredibly frightened about the next step because they were sort of like me. They had box-checked their way to a college degree, and now, once they were done, because you don't learn this, is that once you get through with the box-checking, the things you're supposed to do, you're still faced with figuring your life out. And nobody kind of told them that. They, like many young people, hit senior year, and it's like, how do I figure this out? And this one-year girl said, "My father wants me to go to law school." And she's like, "But I just don't want to go."

• 19:44Speaker 00

  And she was in tears because her father, who was probably like our dad, just wanted her to be safe. He didn't know that a law degree costs $70,000 a year. He didn't realize that she was going to come out of that degree with so much debt that she would be limited in making choices about what she wanted to do because she'd have to pay down that debt. And so I explained to her, "Your dad wants the best for you because he's scared, but he has no idea what you're facing." Because we don't know what our kids are facing. We, being us, we still can't relate to what our sons and daughters are going to face. It's a different market. It's a different situation.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  And so I find even with my girls today that I have to step back and not try to push them to where I want them to go. I have to trust that they know their own market and can make certain decisions. Our parents were way ahead of the curve on that. And I say that because I know that there are kids who are trying to follow the dreams of their parents, sometimes to their own detriment. There are parents out there that are really trying to push their kids to do a certain thing because it feels safe. And part of life, part of this thing called life, is creating the optionality.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Getting the best foundation you can get, which we both did by going to good schools, and then developing some skills along the way. I mean, I didn't regret going to law school because it taught me how to write, how to think, how to communicate. It gave me a level of confidence to just be able to go in any place and figure anything out, right? Those are the skills that were more important to everything that I do in the years ahead than simply just learning the black letter, law. So I think that our parents, unknowingly, probably more knowingly, they kind of knew that.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  And so they let us try hard things. And let me tell you, when you've been working at a corporate law firm, where I started working at Sidley in Austin, I was making more money than both Mom and Dad combined. So you imagine how they felt when I walked up to them to say, "Hey, I don't like this career. It doesn't give me passion and purpose, and I'm going to leave and do something else," right? And to have them both say, "All right, we trust you. Give it a try."

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Well, let me just say a couple of things. One, she didn't learn how to think at law school. She could always think.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you, little boy.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  She has been this personality since she was three or four years old. And she didn't learn how to write there either, because you all should know that my little sister used to write these wonderful short stories that entertained our family. And you think I'm talking about like Jane Ran to the Market. No, these were intricate stories that were mysteries and funny and filled with livelihood. So she's being a little bit modest, but my...

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Well, Harvard did teach me something.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  It didn't teach you that much. Didn't teach you that much. So how would you say our parents prepared us to be brave enough to do the kinds of things that you're talking about?

• 23:40Speaker 00

  I always, you know, I think about the fact that they taught us how to think for ourselves early and to own our lives early. And by early, I do mean four and five. I mean, I talk about this. Our mother, once we started kindergarten, gave us alarm clocks and said, "This is how you work it. You're in school now. It's your education, not mine. This is kindergarten, y'all." And she's like, you know, "Learn to wake yourself up because no one should have to wrestle you out of bed to build your own life." That was day one.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  And it wasn't like we were shocked or scared. We were like, "Yeah, give me the alarm clock."

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Alarm clock.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, look at us. You know, so a lot of what Mom and Dad did was hand us our lives early in appropriate ways, right? And it wasn't like my mom was asleep in bed while we were going to school, you know? She was up, but she wasn't going to come and be like, "Ellen, you're awake. You're awake." She'd wait for that alarm, and it's like, "Okay, let's see how you do it." And then she sent me off to kindergarten by myself around the corner. I was like, "Lady, I'm five." She's like, "You can do it." But the beauty of our parents handing us our lives, it was them showing us that they

• 25:10Speaker 00

  had confidence in our choices, you know? And sometimes, we tend to do the opposite if we helicopter a bit too much, if we're trying too hard to prevent our kids from failing or feeling fear. You know, what tends to happen is that you're kind of signaling to them that you can't do this without me, you know? And our parents were like, "No, you can do this. This is just life, and everybody does it. And you're pretty smart kids, so you'll figure it out."

• 25:49Speaker 00

  And that came to everything from working out situations with teachers that were unfair, clashes with friends, and that's very different from how people parent today. Everybody's trying to curate their kids' experiences, and ours was just not. I mean, our parents did not feel like our lives were theirs to manage or to make better or worse. I mean, look, we had food on the table and lots of love and lots of attention, but like some parents I know, they weren't riding on our highs and lows, you know?

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Our A's, our grades, were our grades, you know? Our failures were our failures. They were there to help pick us up and add a boy and push you right back out there. We could talk about anything, but we were required to figure things out and go to them for counsel, but not for intervention. And so, you know, you leave home having practiced those skills, and you start thinking at a very young age, "There isn't anything I can't figure out. I got this." And I think that...

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  What about you?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  No, everything you said, the one thing I'll say to you folks is, our parents always had room for our voices at an early age, at the kitchen table when we had meals. We were expected, or we were allowed to voice our opinions, and that was really important at an early age. And to Misha's point about advocating for, learning how to advocate for yourself, my dad, who was disabled, I'm sure everybody, those of you who have read my sister's book

• 27:49Speaker 01

  know all the stories, but he walked with a limp that got progressively worse as we got older.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  He had MS.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  And we found out he had MS. But he wasn't an unhappy, disabled person, and he always talked to me about finding something you'd love doing, and it won't be work. And he did that at an early age, so I was getting it hammered into me. Let me figure out what it is that I love doing. And again, I said this earlier, our parents never let their fears get in the way. I remember going to my first basketball tournament when I was 12 years old to Poplar Bluff,

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Kentucky, in a van with a coach who was 19 years old. And my mom was like, "Yeah, go ahead." And then I found out that she was so nervous that my dad had to comfort her and remind her that I'll be back in a few days. But it's not the sort of helicoptering that you see today.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Um, when you decided to get off the basketball track

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  And go into finance and then leave,

• 29:21Speaker 00

  talk about how scary that was and how risky that was and why it was so for you.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was the scary point because I took a job in finance when I came back from playing basketball solely because it was the place you could make the most money. Growing up poor like we did, I was like, all right, I'm gonna use this Princeton degree and I'm gonna get the job that I can get and get paid, right? And I was doing that and I was off on my way, as you remember, on the partnership track and it was time for me to move to New York or maybe even London. This was back when Morgan Stanley first moved to Canary Wharf over there. Now, I haven't been back in 40 years, but I know a lot about it.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  And you were living large.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was ridiculous.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  My brother had the red Porsche

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  That I was in when his former wife crashed it.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  It wasn't, you know, it was a fender bender, but she was picking me up from the airport and somebody ran into her and she ran into somebody and all we were doing was sitting in that Porsche going, oh, man. So he was, he was Mr. Corporate. He was, he was a finance bro and...

• 30:41Speaker 01

  But, but what I realized in that is that, because, you know, when you grow up poor, you think money fixes everything, right? And I learned, uh, now that my ex-wife, it wasn't the means to happiness. And, uh, so I'm making this money and doing well and my life doesn't feel like it's where it's supposed to be and it's because I'm not doing something I love. And so I get this opportunity from my old basketball assistant coach gets the job at Northwestern University, which is in Chicago. And he offers me a job as an assistant coach.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Now, you can imagine being an assistant coach as opposed to being a bond trader on Wall Street is about a 10th of the salary. And I was really, really nervous about making the change, so I talked to Meech about it.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  What was I doing at the time? Where was I in life?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  You, you had already gotten out of

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Law, yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  You had already decided to take a, and so...

• 31:50Speaker 00

  And a, and a pay cut. So here's the two of us going to our parents. We're, we're gonna make less money, each of us. Every step we take is less money.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Our parents are just like, okay.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  So, so one story for you. I, I, I can't pull the trigger on this job because I've got an eight-year-old and a four-year-old and I'm thinking to myself, as I told you, their lives, their lifestyle's gonna change. And so I talked to them both and I said, I brought them together and I said, you know, daddy's getting a new job. He's gonna be a basketball coach. And they both looked at me like this.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  And my eight-year-old said, does this mean that your office is a gym?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  And I said, yes, it does. Not quite, it's next to a gym.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  And my four-year-old daughter said, they have a pool there?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  And it was at that point that I realized I was worried about the wrong things. I was worried about their lives changing and they could care less. They just wanted to spend time with me. So, um, that allowed me to make that swerve, which was nerve-wracking. But again, my mom said, listen, I get it. You got custody of the kids. You have to have a place to stay. Come move back home. You can pay rent when you can. And I just started over again. And what the lesson I learned from that is, there's a couple. One is money ain't the best thing all the time.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And two is if you're not afraid to start over, you can, you can do anything. And I, I just started over and it couldn't have, I couldn't have made a better choice.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  I just got back from London. We taped an IMO live show. I had a little bit of downtime, so I explored. I did this Airbnb experience while I was there, a walking tour around the city, and it was one of those things where you learn something every five minutes. We hit Trafalgar Square and got the full story on Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson. We caught the changing of the guards. We walked through Ben Franklin's actual house, made it out to Greenwich, the literal center of time, and the city was already buzzing, getting ready for the King's ceremonial birthday celebration outside Buckingham Palace. Oh, and random fact I couldn't stop thinking about, those stripes on American Navy uniforms?

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Direct nod to the British Royal Navy. Yep. Now, here's the thing that got me. London was packed for this conference and I'm thinking, if you live in a city that draws big events like this, you could be making real money those weekends. That's the whole thing about Airbnb. When people list their homes, it lets travelers like me actually live like a local. So if you've got travel coming up, think about listing your space. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/Host. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Meech, what is one of the biggest swings or leaps of faith you've taken professionally or otherwise?

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I've had a lot of big swings. I mean, you know, me leaving my job at the law firm where I was making a ton of money in corporate law and deciding to go and work in government and public service where it cut my salary in half. And I remember how guilty I felt for going to mom and dad and even expressing an interest to do something that I cared about rather than something that would make the absolute most money. I mean, at the time, I was making, my salary was more than both mom and dad's salary combined.

• 36:10Speaker 01

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• 38:28Speaker 01

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• 38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, the one thing about swerving is that it gets easier over time. You know, that first leap is the hardest. Mine was when I left law and decided that I, you know, and I had to figure out then, if not a lawyer, who do I want to be? And I had to start over and figuring that out. I had to start that process. And what was going on in my life at the time was that Dad had just died. And one of my best friends from college died suddenly of lymphoma. And I mean by suddenly, she was diagnosed in December and died in May. And this was a young, healthy, beautiful girl.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  And it made me stop and think, oh, my God, life is short and it is unpredictable. And nothing is really guaranteed. And if I were to die tomorrow, is this where I want to be? On the 47th floor of a corporate firm, working for corporate clients, looking at my... I could see the neighborhood where I came from, from my fancy office. But I wasn't connected to it. I was like, is this who I want to be? Have I even thought about it? Or was I just checking boxes? And I thought, and I also met Barack Obama at the time, who was the master swerver, because he did the opposite of everything you were supposed to do. He had been a community organizer.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  He had, you know, he went back to law, not because he wanted to do the corporate firm thing, but because he thought it would give him tools to help the community. He had no interest in Supreme Court clerkships, even though he was the president of the Harvard Law Review, and that was the path. So I was meeting other people who were showing me different ways of making decisions in life. And we started dating. And he was like, if you don't want to do the law, leap now. I got you. We're gonna be okay. And so I left to work in the city, to work in city government. I was an assistant to the mayor, then was in economic development.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  And with every move, I just realized that I was walking more into my, into my reality, into my truth, you know? Not being in sort of a sterile environment, but being in the grit and the scrum of city work and helping people and that that is what got me up every day, feeling really excited. And nobody taught me that, or teaches young people that in college. You know, nobody teaches you even the process of figuring that out for yourself. And that was an eye-opener. But once I did that first leap, the others were easier.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  You know, because number one, I had freed myself from the financial belief in the same way that Craig did. It took us longer to pay down our loans, but...

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Paid them down.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  We were able to pay them down. And I hope this isn't so disheartening to people that were saying money doesn't matter, that people are leaving. No.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  They're like, wait a minute, money doesn't matter?

• 41:58Speaker 00

  It's like, I'm out of here.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  We're in the wrong seminar.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  I don't agree. But it doesn't. Look, you know, the thing is, is that it comes along the way, right? We're both doing well, you know? But I try to talk to young people about, one thing we learned with Imo, one of our guests, favorite guest, was Dave Chappelle. And he said something about, because he lives in a little town, Yellow Springs, Ohio, in the middle of nowhere. It's this little dot of blue and a lot of red. And that's where he grew up.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  His parents were professors at Antioch College, which is a small college in that town. I mean, it's a farm town. And I don't, we were like, we went and visited, because we did the interview out there, we did another live out there, and we had an amazing time. Dave Chappelle is one of the smartest people on the planet, and funny as all get out...

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can clap for that one.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  For that one.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  It was good.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  But when I asked, why, because once he became himself, he moved back, bought a farm, has raised his family on this farm. And one of the questions was, why, why here? And he said, I wanted to have the financial freedom to be courageous. And I was like, ooh, ooh, bars, bars, you know? And that's the truth, I think Craig is talking about, which what I would say to young people, and I say to my girls, live smaller than you need to, you know? I know, look, I saw your face, girl. What you do, you got loans? It's not too late.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  It's not too late. Because I wasn't living small either. He had a Porsche, I had a Saab. That was the first thing we got, with nice cars, when we got these big fancy firms.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Big house.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Big houses, all of that. It was just, and it wasn't happiness, but living small financially allows you to stay free of the golden handcuffs. Because that was the thing I saw in my firm, I was figuring this out. I would talk to junior associates, senior associates, and people were there, and not across the board, but folks felt were there because they got used to the money. And everybody had a mortgage, or this, or that. And that led them to just stay, just let me just make partner, and let me just do this,

• 44:44Speaker 00

  because now I'm living up to the salary that I'm making, right? I didn't want to be stuck because, making choices in life because of the money. So I tell my daughters, get used to living smaller than you need to, so that you can do the things you want to do when they present themselves. And then you can build from anywhere. And Craig, you know, one thing a lot of people didn't realize, that you knew, was that there's a hierarchy, even financially, even in coaching, that you start out as an assistant coach, you're working with kids, but if you make your way to Division One coaching, they make ridiculous money.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  It's way too much money that you were making. As a coach, but...

• 45:35Speaker 01

  On another note.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  The first, the first leap is the hardest. And keep yourself financially as free as you can.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  So how much of our journey do you think prepared us to be podcast hosts together?

• 45:56Speaker 00

  None of it, no. You know, I think it's that courageous thing, right? The feeling that, okay, I guess we can do this, because we did all these other things. That the bravery makes you brave to try anything at any age. And I think for me, I've just gotten used to, okay, we're gonna do this. I mean, I lived in the White House, I was the first lady, that wasn't my plan. Had no training for that. Wasn't my idea. Was not. But we figured it out.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  Figure, if I can be first lady, I can do a podcast with my brother. But I think the staying courageous and curious and open, you know, and vulnerable, and willing to share, I think the one thing that I learned through my journey was, like, a lot of people just don't tell young folks stuff. I mean, it's like, why is so much of life a secret? You know, why are we pretending like, I got it, I got it, you know? And nobody's got it. Nobody knows what they're doing.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  And so I've kind of offered a lot of my experiences up, really is kind of like, I feel like I have a responsibility, having had opportunities and exposure, and to have sat at every powerful table there is. I have seen it all. Every table, I've been at it. And I feel like it's my job to come down from the mountain and be like, y'all?

• 47:41Speaker 00

  This is a mo. It's not all that because there's so many people like me, like you, women, minorities, folks who aren't supposed to be at these tables because they are sitting around thinking that they're imposters, you know? Impostor syndrome, I've never heard a white man talk about impostor syndrome. I haven't met, I haven't met one who has felt it. I'm just wondering if you guys know what we're talking about when we talk about impostor syndrome, this feeling that you don't belong at the powerful table you're sitting in. Y'all are like, nope, never felt it. Never felt it. But it's, you know, I think my honesty and vulnerability, the kind of conversations

• 48:26Speaker 00

  we have in podcasting, that's a good, I think it's a good space to share some of these experiences so that we demystify all of life, all of it, you know? Marriage, raising kids, what was hard, IVF, let's talk about it, let's talk about it so that people aren't growing up unaware of like some obvious things and mistakes. And so I think you have to be willing to be vulnerable to be in the space of podcasting. And I think my life has, has, has prepared me for that. What about you?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm only in this because our team asked me to do it, to get her to do it.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  It is true. It is true. I wasn't, you know, I was like, I don't, I don't need to.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I'm half joking, no.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  No, it is true. They're like, your brother will do it with you. I was like, ah, really? Craig, I love my brother. I do.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Oh, isn't that sweet?

• 49:30Speaker 00

  He's my big brother.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  But pivoting to this, pivoting to this was easy for me. But you know, one of the pivots I took in between, uh, working in the NB, uh, working in college basketball, working in the NBA, I worked at ESPN, which is a sports channel in the United States.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  I forgot all about that. See, he swerved so much, I totally forgot about your broadcasting experience.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  She was busy in the White House, so.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. That's what we were doing.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  She forgets stuff like that. So it, it, it, it wasn't something that I had planned to do, but it was one of those things where, uh, my agent was like, don't go back into coaching right away. Why don't you go work on TV and just think about it? And I did that. And my wife says that we're doing this podcast.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  His second wife, by the way.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, my second wife, my second wife.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  Well, we want to clarify that. We're honest. Remember he got divorced before the Porsche?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  My sister and my second wife get along really well.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  I got along with your first wife too. We, we crashed, we crashed a Porsche together.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm still mad about that. But she says it's because I just like talking to people, which is true. You know, what's really been interesting about this pivot is that I've been able to sort of culminate all the experiences I've had throughout my life and then use them philanthropically. Because as Mish said early in the, in her introduction, um, you know, we get questions from our listeners and then can impart some opinions, um, to, to try and help them.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  And being philanthropic with our experiences is such a, it's such a wonderful feeling. And people have been so gracious, you know? You go through the airport, you go, I've still coaching my kids in basketball tournaments. People come up to me all the time and say how much they love the show. Uh, so that's been really good. The second thing is, and I don't think we talk about this enough, um, because I'm used to being on teams, you know, having been a player and then gone and worked at, at, at, you know, when you think about bond trading, it's very individualistic.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  So for a big part of my life, I was sort of a sole survivor out there. And then I got back into sports and it's back with a team. You know, working on this podcast is like having a whole new team in a completely different , um, genre than I've been comfortable in. So I'm like the rookie on the team again. I mean, we've got, you know, our staff is peppered through here and in the back. They really are the ones who make the show for us. They get our guests, they, uh, you know, help produce us and, uh, it just is, it, it just is a really neat feeling. And every time we get together, it's like a reunion.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  And, uh, so this is, this has really been a pivot that's been a whole lot of fun. And, and it's really nice to hang out with my little sister again. Um, and, and the, the most remarkable thing is because I know how you guys look up to her. That's how our guests are.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Well, some of you do.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Right? Wait.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  And it is mind boggling to me. Mind boggling. I mean, there, you know, there's sometimes people get so emotional and I'm just like shaking my head like, her? No, but it's been really fun. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. You know, I like keeping things simple and that's exactly what Apple Card does. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you can earn up to 3% unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make, no matter where you shop.

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• 56:39Speaker 01

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• 58:02Speaker 01

  What's been the most challenging part for you?

• 58:06Speaker 00

  You know, I just think the pace, we stack up a lot of interviews at once because he works and there are other commitments, so it's just doing-

• 58:17Speaker 01

  You notice how she said "he works" and then "other commitments"?

• 58:20Speaker 00

  Well, he's got a real J O B in a traditional sense and I'm just rambling around the country doing stuff, but I have more control over my schedule than he does. So, you know, it's doing the work to be prepared for your guest, whoever it is. I mean, the one thing I've learned in college, one of the skills that I've brought along the way that has helped me as First Lady is just preparing, you know, just being ready for whatever job you're doing. And I tend to over-prepare, so I think it's really trying to make sure I know enough about every guest, about every aspect of them, so that I can forget about any notes and then

• 59:05Speaker 00

  be engaged in the conversation when it happens. So it's like talking to a friend that I've known all the time and I can remember, "Ooh, you said this one thing, talk more about that," or "Get into that." You know, sometimes it's work to make things look effortless. And so, just making that time is one thing that takes up a little more time than I thought.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  But it's good.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  For me, the most challenging thing is keeping up with my sister's wardrobe. That's hard.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  You're doing okay, look at his socks, though. He doesn't know that he should steam his jackets before he comes out, but we're working on it. We're working on it.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Nobody can see the back.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. Spoken like a boy, a non-fashion boy.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  No, for me, it is, keeping up with pop culture is hard, you know, because-

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Which is just regular conversation, right? You know, I mean, pop culture, if it's not basketball, you know, it just can't be all sports, you know? You gotta know what the Real Housewives are up to. You've got to know.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  And I don't know what the Real Housewives are up to. I don't.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  So, he's left out of a lot of conversations on the podcast, y'all. But we've talked about, you know, this third act, and you guys are young out there, there are a lot of young faces, but I think there'll be some people here who understand, you know, that next, that what for me, and I do say this, is probably my last chapter. I mean, from a career standpoint, and don't look like that. I am 62 years old and you're older.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  I'm 64, yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  64, 62. Our grandparents, we could be grandparents, but we are not.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  If we had sat down for a few minutes, we could be grandparents.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  It's true, yeah, yeah, if we had slowed down a minute. But I do think, I have been trying to be very mindful in this next chapter, and I get my staff all upset when I say this, and we just lost our mom. And one of the things that mom said, and our mom was very practical about life and all things, and she's like, "I don't want to live to forever. Old people need to die and get out," I mean, these are her words. It's like, "We don't know what we're talking about, we need to keep moving on and I'm just gonna be fine when I get older," and, you know, so-

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  She's been dropping dead for 20 years.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  She's like, "I'm gonna be dead and you need to be able to get yourself together with me not here." I mean, she's telling this and we're 10 years old, and I'm like, "Mom, this is scary." But, when she was sick and getting worse, she was with me for about a winter, and it was clear that she wasn't, that this was, she might not recover from this. And so, we, you know, fortunately had some time to kind of all come to grips with the fact that mom wasn't gonna be here forever. And even with her jaded and, you know, stoic approach to things, I was sitting with her

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  on the couch and we were watching TV, and we'd just come back from doctor's appointment, didn't get great news, and we were watching Judge Judy, as we often do, as she did, and she just looked over at me and said, "Wow, that was quick." And I was like, "What are you talking about, Mom?", and she said, "Life." And I was like, and she said nothing else. You know, like, even this cynical, sort of stoic woman felt like, you know, when you're living a good life, it's fast. And I felt like that in our lives, when you're busy and moving, I mean, this last, we've been out of the White House for 10 years, and I swear it went like that.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  And most people, my daughters will be 28 and 25 this year. I mean, so, my thing is like, this next chapter, I want to be mindful about it so that it doesn't just slip away. I want to be clear about how I'm spending my time, how much of it I'm giving away to others, what I'm choosing to do, you know, how it makes me feel, you know, how the choices that I make are now gonna be for me, not for my husband, not for my kids, not for the country, not for the world, because this is it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  And at some point, it's important for us, our generation, to step out of the way and be prepared to step out of the way, so that the next generation really can sit in these seats. So that means that this is our, you know, this is our third act. I don't know, how do you think about your third act, Craig?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Well, I wasn't thinking of it as a third act until everybody started talking about it, "Third Act." No, it, uh, it's all the more important to reiterate what I was saying about finding something you love to do, because it's not easy to do. It's not easy to find, I should say. And we have been really fortunate in being able to do a lot of things. But my sister always reminds me, she said on one of our episodes, she said, "You know, we only have about 19 summers left."

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Which is a lot of summers, but it is 19, we're 62.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  When you think about it, that's not many.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  That's not many, but it's, you know, so I want to start counting, so I don't lose track.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  I don't want to waste a summer doing something silly. It's like, "Dag, one of my summers just went to doing something silly."

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  So this-

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Now I'm counting.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  This part of our lives, we're just taking more control over it and being able to spend it together, and our families are getting together way more often now, it's just, you know, if I could impart any opinions or advice to you is, don't sleep on this third act, because there, you know, at this age, we are not the same as our parents were. We are vibrant and lively and can still run around a little bit.

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  We're cool.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  She's cooler than I am. But, we're cool. So, it is just, embrace the third act, is what I'm saying, because the fun doesn't have to stop, and the learning doesn't have to stop. And, you know, people talk about, they throw around this lifelong learner term, it's true. One of the best parts about doing this is that my brain has been re-energized, I'm learning something every single time we sit together with one of our guests.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  And to the young people out there, too. Because like, all of this is earned and has to be earned. And so, you know, it's important to know that there was a process for us to get here. And, you know, and that process takes time. And it takes some level of investment. Because even though we swerved, one of the things I know you and I did was that wherever we were at the time, we put 120% in what we were doing. And none of it was a waste. And that's what I want young people to understand, that every experience, everyone, the bad

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  boss, the boring assistant job, the job that you thought you weren't appreciated, the one that didn't give you the assignment you wanted when you wanted it, all of that is learning. You know, it's learning to be resilient, you know? It's like, one thing that's important to learn is how to do something you don't like to do, and be good at it. You know, I think a lot of young people, they want to just, now they want to do what I'm, what I want to do, and what I'm good at. You, you gotta earn that, you know? You gotta earn, you know, carrying some bags, and having some tough times, and having people treat you unfairly, right?

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  And not giving you the raise when you think you deserve it, you know? There's character building that comes, that gets you ready down the line for, you know, being your own manager, being your own leader, you know? So, one of the things that a lot of our guests say, that are good at what they do, is that they, they are more enamored with the process than the outcome. And so, I would say to young people, enjoy, learn to enjoy the process. Whatever your process is, because it's, that's where you develop the skills that then lead you to the things that you want to, want to do.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  You know, the process of developing programs in the White House, it takes time. It took a level of persistence. There was a whole lot of backlash. Was I prepared for it? Was Barack prepared for it? Heck, yeah. We were. From all the other things that we had done, it's all, it all leads up to being ready for the thing you don't even know that you're gonna do. So I want young people to be a little more patient in the process. You don't have to start counting your summers yet. You know, you got a lot of them. And that's the other thing, I learned, life is long. I mean, we have had between us, we've had dozens and dozens of careers, you know?

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  It's like, the ability to remake yourself is there. If you're good at what you do, and that's another reason to work hard, is because you leave your job well, you can go to the next one. Everything we've done, I hope people say they were good at what they did, you know? So that we got the support and the encouragement to go to the next place, even if you didn't like the job. I worked hard at Sidley in Austin. I had great relationships with those partners. They're still in my life. Some of those people, back when I was 26 years old, are still people who respect me now. And that's the kind of investment that I think everybody here, young people, early

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  in their careers, wants to be thinking about making. What are these people, whether I like them or not, gonna say about me in 10, 20 years? What are they gonna remember about what I left behind? But it's also, it's the process.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  I don't have too much more to add.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  All right, well then, it is time for...

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yes, we've covered a lot of ground.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  This is something our team, our team loves for us to do, which I'm like, okay, I don't know whether this is gonna be fun for you, but...

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, see, my sister's a curmudgeon.

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  I can be.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  This is, we want to end on a bit of a lighter note. And our team has written up some fast money lightning round questions.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  Oh, do I, I think I lost mine.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  That's okay. I'm prepared.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  I didn't do that on purpose, Crystal.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  I swear, I swear.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  So, we're gonna do some fast rounds to each other, or maybe I'll do them for both of us, and since you've...

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  Where's my card?

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  ...lost their cards.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Wait.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  But, we're gonna name some British favorites, and see which ones are our favorite.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  Oh, here, I found, I found.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  You ready?

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  All right, so, I'll go first.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Sausage roll or fish and chips?

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  Fish and chips, I had a plate, got in late 10:30, fish and chips, waiting. Vinegar, tartar sauce, best thing. Best thing.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  And, I mean, it's always smacks. Fish and chips.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  All right, Craig.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  I'm fish and chips.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  American biscuits or British biscuits?

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Okay, depends on...

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  Uh-oh.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  It depends on what I'm doing. But British biscuits are cookies, and American biscuits are bread. So I'm going British biscuits.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  Really? Okay, all right.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  I know what I'm talking about. They still sell Jaffa cookies around here? Jaffa? Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Ah, ah. Okay, little Mr. Manchester. You're next. You asked me.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Tea or coffee?

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Uh, tea. Although, I had a cappuccino, because I've just come back from Australia. So I'm like, I'm holding up, I needed coffee today. Marmite, beloved delicacy or edible prank?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Edible prank.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  What is it?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It's like Vegemite. It's...

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  It's like a spread, right?

• 1:13:06Speaker 00

  What is it? What is in it?

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  It's like yeast.

• 1:13:10Speaker 00

  It's yeast?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  It's a yeast spread.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  Why are you all eating yeast? What is going on here? And who was the first yeast eater? Who, who tried that?

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  It's actually good for your gut.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  What do you know?

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  All right, here. Pub at 2:00 PM on a Tuesday?

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  Concerning or community building? I don't, I don't think there's any problem with 2:00 PM pub.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Nothing wrong with a pint.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  Assuming, assuming you got your work done, and it's not happening every day. Oh, it's just Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, that's fine, that's fine. What's a spotted dick? I really, what is it?

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  What is that? I don't know what that is.

• 1:14:06Speaker 00

  Did you? What is it? A pudding. Like a cake. Okay.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Is it good? Is it delicious?

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  Is it like marmite?

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it isn't. Okay.

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  Is it, is it yeast again?

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  That's why I don't know about it, it's not delicious.

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  I thought you knew.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Okay, Big Ben or the London Eye?

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  Uh-oh, is there a right answer to this? No, there is. Okay, let me guess what it should be. Big Ben's been around longer, it's a historical feature, whereas the London Eye is a ride. Is that pretty much, so you should care about the history and not the ride? Although, the ride sounds fun.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  It's a Ferris wheel, right?

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the London Eye's a Ferris wheel.

• 1:14:57Speaker 00

  It's a ride!

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, all right.

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Okay, you can only listen to one for the rest of your life, Elton John or Paul McCartney?

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Ooh, so, yeah, that's a hard one, right? But, let me tell you, Elton John was my mom's favorite artist.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  Yes. And for her funeral, he rerecorded, was it Candle in the Wind? One of her favorite songs, for her. Oh, and love Paul. Hey, Paul, we're coming for you.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Okay, we're running out of time, so we'll do one more.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  Okay, you do it.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Favorite British word?

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  Bloody brilliant. I love, like, I keep intending to use brilliant, like, but I forget, because I'm American, and we don't have beautiful language.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  And bloody is worse than the F-word.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  Is it really?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  No?

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  No, it's not.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  It used to be when I lived here, it was worse.

• 1:16:03Speaker 00

  No. I think the fact that anything can be brilliant, it's so, it's like, it's just brilliant. Like, this time with you all, brilliant. Brilliant! All right. London, thank you guys so much. It has been a treat. It's good to be back, we love you all. Thank you, and to my big brother Craig Robinson!

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Thank you, y'all.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26, when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.