Patent Leather Boots and Purpose with Keke Palmer

The Look takes the Superdome! Emmy-award winning actress, host, singer, and author Keke Palmer sits down with Michelle at Essence Festival in New Orleans. The two get into everything from Michelle’s early style icons (hey Pam Grier and Teresa Graves!), to Michelle’s first kiss with her husband, and negotiating outfits with Malia and Sasha during the White House years. Keke and Michelle also discuss the impact of fame in parenthood, how the idea of purpose has changed from generation to generation, and staying in the moment when it matters most. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes. I mean, being First Lady, Barack would look at the clothing bill and be like, "Girl." I was like, "Dude." I'm like, "Dude, just stand down. Just stand down, dude."

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Hello, everybody. Wow.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  What an honor it is to be here with you, Mrs. Obama. Every time I get to spend time with you, I'm so just thrilled.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  I love you, Kiki.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  I love you back.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Thank you for being here, babe.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  And obviously, we're so happy to be here with you guys at SS Fest in New Orleans. Y'all already know.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  You all are live and looking good.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say that. I mean, we are here to talk about The Look, your incredible book, and everything that it means to establish a look, right? We're all wearing fashion. I see beautiful women and men. I see the fellas are out there doing their thing. So, I want to give my hats off to you guys for bringing that fabulosity tonight for us. I'm so excited. I think I also have to tell them, even though I know it still under wraps a little bit with Higher Ground, obviously, your company, but we're working on a movie, y'all.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  This is gonna be good.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I'm so excited, starring myself.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Kiki and Higher Ground, it's amazing. I'm so excited, grateful that you're gonna be a part of that project, babe.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Yes, I don't want to tell you guys too much, but it involves basketball in Aubrey Plaza, so you can imagine some comedy. So, keep a lookout for that. We'll keep you guys posted. Well, you know, in talking about The Look, talking about Black women, Black people, culture, setting trends, what was so important about it for you to create this book, to talk about? What we, how to own what we put out into the world?

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Ooh, as we all know, how we show up in the world says a whole lot about, sometimes, how we're treated, what kind of respect we have. And during my eight years as First Lady, I made it a point not to talk about fashion because I didn't want my eight years to be just about the shoes I wore or the dress I was in. I wanted people to see who I was and what I was doing.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  And as a woman, a lot of times, we are talked about how we look first before what we say.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:51Speaker 00

  And so, but fashion was a big part of what I did. I mean, I made it a point to think really strategically about how I showed up.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  So, The Look is now my opportunity to share that journey because I do love fashion and I did make a point of thinking through strategically how I needed to show up in the world as the first Black First Lady.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  And so, The Look

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  takes you on that journey.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I love that because The Look is not only being defined by what you look like on the outside, but the agency you have with how you show up and how much that is allowed to define who you are. So, there's many different levels to that. I want to, as we go down that journey of The Look with you, I want to start at the top. Take me back to the South Side of Chicago. You know, when we think about your personal style back then, when you were Michelle Robinson.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  You know, what was your look? How would you get up and get dressed? What did you think about fashion at that point?

• 3:50Speaker 00

  You know, girl, when I was growing up, my style was broke.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  It was just broke, working girl. You know, my style was a lot of no, right? Because Marion Robinson, my mother, she pinched a penny, you know? So, she wasn't really into fashion. So, I was one of those young girls who was always, I wish, you know, if I had the money, if I could, you know, if I really had full control over my own look, I could dream about what I wanted to wear. But we didn't grow up being able to afford much of anything, you know? We were shopping at Sears and Roebuck's, you know, Garanimals, what was on sale.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  I remember the Sears Tower growing up in Illinois.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  I was so sick of Sears growing up. But I did, I grew up on the South Side with a ton of fashion.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Who were some of your inspirations?

• 4:54Speaker 00

  They were all the girls in the neighborhood, you know? I mean, I was always looking up to that girl just older than me.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  You know, the little cutie that be sitting on the sidelines at my brother's basketball games.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  I was like 10 years old and she was 13 or 14, coming in with her Gloria Vanderbilt jeans and her chains laid. You know, I knew what fashion and style was, but when I was young, we just couldn't afford it. I used to always want to wear a pair of white patent leather go-go boots.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Come on, go-go boots.

• 5:34Speaker 00

  Because I was watching, like, Get Christie Love.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yes.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Foxy Brown.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yes, Camper.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  I mean, those fine Black women in those little mini skirts and those boots that just zipped up.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I mean, and speaking of The Look, I think that also feels like power. When I think about those patent leather boots, I think about an Afro. I think about a leather jacket with a little peplum to it.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  That makes me think about power.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Indeed. Maybe that's what I was thinking. I was channeling some Get Christie Love. I was gonna shoot somebody up. But Marion Robinson wasn't having that.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  She was like, "It wasn't practical to wear patent leather boots when there was 10 inches of snow." So, I was stuck with my little rubber boots.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's interesting when we see what is represented on television or in music, what's actually possible for us in our day-to-day life, especially when we're thinking about people that are of minority. People might think, "Oh, the White House is your first experience dealing with big institutions." But obviously, it's not. You were in college at Princeton and Harvard. Being in predominantly white spaces was something that you were very, you know, well at navigating. But when you think about those early years of yourself in college, what role did fashion or your look play then? Like, when you first entered those spaces?

• 6:52Speaker 00

  You know, I was probably more focused on the academics back then. I mean, you know, I went to college broke. We were on financial aid. I was on work-study. You know, I had the clothes that I had, you know? I came with my Levi's and my polo shirts and my Levi jeans jacket. I just didn't have the time or the money to focus too much on what I looked like, you know? And I think that's true for a lot of college kids, you know? I mean, you just, you're away from home for the first time. You're trying to figure out where to get your hair done in a white space. I mean, that was like a big deal, going to a white school in a white neighborhood.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  It was like, where am I getting my hair done? I was more focused on that than I was what I was getting, what I was wearing. But my focus in college was trying to make sure I showed up and got those grades. So, there were classmates of mine who came from more affluence, who came with the preppy look and they had all the clothes. And some of these kids were Black. But most of the Black kids at Princeton, when I was gone, we were all just trying to get through. You know, we weren't really focused, we didn't have time to focus on our look.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I really, really relate to this, especially when I think about me in the early years, coming up in the industry, where you think, I mean, obviously, I had glam and fashion. All that thing was thought of, but I didn't always have a lot of money to have the best styling or to get the best clothes. So, my way of surviving or being able to thrive in those spaces was just being really good at the job. You know, it's just like, I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna do so good. And you're not gonna think about if I have on Louis Vuitton or not, even if I have on an off thing or whatever it is. At what point did you start being able to even open yourself up to thinking about how fashion could support you on your journey to success?

• 8:47Speaker 00

  You know, it really wasn't until I started campaigning for Barack in the presidential race. Because the truth is that while I was a professional, went to law school, worked at a big firm, I did a lot of jobs. Again, once again, my focus was on the work. My focus was on the career. And I always thought the outfit, I wore what I needed to wear to get the job done, right? So, when I was a corporate attorney, back in the 90s, when I was practicing, we had those ugly...

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Women's suits, these 90s suits with the big shoulder pads.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  I was just gonna wear the uniform that I needed to get the job done.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  And so, when I first went out on the campaign trail in Iowa, fashion became an important part of something I had to think about because I had to be organized.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  I mean, if you think about what I was doing when I had two little kids, I was still working a full-time job. I was the Vice President of Community Affairs at the University of Chicago Hospitals. I would campaign three days a week. I would leave Chicago at 5:00 in the morning because I wanted to make sure I'd see the kids. I'd get on the first flight out of Chicago into Iowa. I'd land in Iowa, campaign all day, and that would mean I might do five rallies, three fundraisers, and I'd do as much as I could to get to the last flight out of Iowa to get back to Chicago in time for dinner with the girls. So I was usually just wearing one outfit.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  It was giving Steve Jobs.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  It was, it was one of those, it had to be like, it's a sweater, it's a vest, it's a fundraiser, now I'm at a fair, and you know, it had to be able, it had to be versatile for the whole day.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  But then I realized at this pace, I don't have, I didn't have time to think about clothes. And that was the first time I met a designer. This woman, Maria Pinto, I was introduced to her. She was a young designer in Chicago. And that was the first time I'd met somebody who owned their own fashion line and they made clothes. And I really went to her because it was convenient. I could do one-stop shopping. I could go to her. She had my measurements. This is when I was wearing those sheath dresses that were silk, sleeveless. She made those. Those were Maria Pinto designs. And I could go to her, get fitted,

• 11:29Speaker 00

  have a set of clothes that I didn't have to think about. So Kiki, when I was, fashion was something that I was trying not to think about. Right? I had to be organized enough and have enough resources so that I could put on clothes, not have to think about it, know that I looked good and looked presentable because this is when people were starting to write about me, right?

• 11:53Speaker 01

  And that makes me curious of when you understood the power of it. And maybe it didn't even come up first positively. Maybe it was the power of seeing how people were writing up about you because of what you wore. Do you remember a moment in time?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  Oh, I remember the first big speech I gave in Iowa. It was packed. I mean, I was pulling more crowds than most of Barack's opponents. Okay, now clock it. But it was interesting, the more popular I became, the more of a threat I became. It was interesting, that's when the articles started coming out. I had been campaigning for more than a year. And then it was, this is when I understood, like, this is politics. Oh, they're coming after me because I'm useful. And they're trying to beat my husband, so they're trying to slow me down, right?

• 12:47Speaker 00

  And some of those first articles, they would always start, she was wearing a purple sheath and she had on this pair of shoes. It wouldn't matter what I said, Kiki. The article would start with what I had on.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  And I realized, oh, this is how they do women in politics. This is how we treat women in public life. We diminish them to just what they look like. And not what I'm saying now. I'm giving impassioned speeches. I think people know now that I can give a speech. Okay. That wasn't just, that didn't just start happening, you know? I was, I was always really good on the campaign trail. I was always a powerful orator. And I was, I was good at it because my topic was good. It was about my husband.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  So I could, I'll tell you something good about that man. It was like, give me a mic.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Come on, give me a mic.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Give me a mic. Let me tell you something.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  In that moment, right? Because there's two things that's happening. That's, we're in the campaign. I have to be strategic for good reason, right? I have to understand what I'm going up against. But then I also have to still be me, right? I imagine there's a part of you that was like, I want to do what needs to be done, but like, I still want to be true to me. How did you waver the balance of how to create the look around your agency and what your husband and you all needed for the, for, you know, what you ended up becoming in the presidency?

• 14:19Speaker 00

  You know, holding on to who I was was never hard for me. I mean, that was, I think a lot of that had to do with age. I mean, we weren't coming into this, while we were young to be President and First Lady, we were in our, let me get the math right, we were in our 40s, our mid 40s.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  But you already accomplished so much.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Exactly. We were, we were fully formed, Barack and I were fully formed people. You know, I had had five, six careers. I was the mother of two. I had ran organizations. I'd worked in almost every sector. I've been a corporate attorney. I was an assistant to the mayor. I was the Vice President of Community Affairs, y'all. I ran stuff. I had a job. I did some stuff, right? And I had ups and downs, right? I had, I had pitfalls and I had losses.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Because a lot of people think that, obviously, working in the White House, being under that institution, it's a huge deal. It's a huge job as a public servant. But to understand all the things you did to get you there, you were quite primed and ready.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Right. I mean, when I wrote Becoming, it was interesting that when I was talking to the publishers about what kind of book I wanted to write, this First Lady book, of course, they thought, well, we're gonna talk about the eight years in the White House. And I was like, well, if we're gonna, if I'm gonna let people know who I am, those eight years, that was just a piece of a greater story. You know, the eight years in the White House, the time that Barack and I were President and First Lady, that doesn't fully define us as people. You know, we lived long lives, long, full lives, right? So I think because we were able to bring that level of confidence and experience into the job, even as young as we were, I think that helped me.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  And I think it's more difficult for younger people, like, I do. I mean, you, you amazed me that, of your level of poise and confidence because you had to develop yourself in the public eye. I mean, you were a baby figuring this out. And trying to hold on to that as you're building it, that's a different challenge, right?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  I really appreciate that.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so I, that's why I love this girl because she carries herself like an old soul. And that is not, that is not easy to do.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  It really means a lot. I've had a lot of great examples. I feel really blessed in my life to be able to see women such as yourself up close and personal. I remember when I first met you, Sasha and Malia, it was at Big World, Big Wide World Day of Play. I was doing Two Jacks VP at the time, and it was one of the best experiences ever. So I got to see your grace up close and of course, watched you the whole presidency. And so you're a big inspiration to me.

• 17:17Speaker 02

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• 20:59Speaker 01

  We're talking about, you know, the road to you all getting to the White House, all the many lives you live. A continuous theme is the weight of performing excellence in spaces that were not designed for you. Yeah. So then that becomes the question that I think we all, you know, would want to understand how to distill something from, which is, when is it time to stop reshaping a space and building your own? Or is it something you do simultaneously?

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's a process. And it changes at different times in your life and it changes at different points of leverage in your life, right?

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Love that word, leverage.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Because we don't always have leverage to control the spaces that we're in. And that's okay, because sometimes you're developing leverage. I mean, I tell a lot of young people, yeah, you want to come into a new job with confidence and owning some stuff, but you also have to earn the right to have an opinion. You know, I'm sorry, I want my young people to be empowered, but sometimes, you know, you gotta pay-

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Experience, you need the experience.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  You gotta pay your dues, right? So for me, there were times when I felt like a space wasn't quite right for me, but I didn't have the leverage to change it.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  You know, and that was okay. I mean, I wasn't upset by it, I understood, right? And I also needed a job, you know? I tell people, don't mess up your money, right? I mean, sometimes you don't have leverage because you don't have power, because you need to be in a space.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  That also feels quite objective, because I think we sometimes personalize our value in the workplace, which can really slow us up. But if you use that objectivity and you say to yourself, "Look, right now I don't have the leverage, but if I learn what I learned, I stay it for five, six months, I figure out what I need to figure out, I can take this money, or I can take this experience, and I can flip it somewhere else."

• 22:54Speaker 00

  You never want the circumstances to push you out of a situation that you need to be in, right? Sometimes, you know, it's like, look, I grew up watching working-class parents. My father worked a city job his whole life. He was probably not happy. He didn't get paid enough, but he had a family of four to take care of. And he got up every day. And he put up with a whole bunch of stuff.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  My dad too.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  And I think about my father's and our father's journey before I get so upset about a situation that I'm just gonna, I'm gonna blow it up for myself, right? But I believe that showing up in a situation with excellence, like every job that I've done, whether they've accepted me, I've been ready for it, I've tried to learn from it, and show up in a way that they wanted me to stay, right? It's like, so if I'm leaving you, I'm gonna leave you wanting me to stay, right? I'm gonna leave when I'm ready to leave. And then as you grow and build more power and leverage,

• 24:08Speaker 00

  that's when I found that I could, I had the opportunity to shape my own environment.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Like, when I finally left working for city government, I left to run my own nonprofit. And when I left that, I was working as an assistant to the mayor and then the assistant to the Commissioner of Planning and Economic Development. I was working for someone, right? I was someone's assistant.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  So I lived under their culture and their rules, because they were the boss. Now, I got to a point where I thought, could I run my own thing, you know?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Am I good enough? Am I strong enough to take an idea and grow an organization myself? Build my own culture? And shape my own organization? I left to do that. That's when I ran and started a nonprofit organization. That's when I was able to shape culture and dress.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And I love what you whittled it down to, because I think a lot of times we get caught up, you know, I see a lot of times online with what it means to be a CEO or this title or that title. But really, what you're zeroing on is the function. The function you wanted to pursue is to create a culture, to create a space defined by your beliefs, your concepts, to support your mission. That's what drove you to realizing I should start my own thing.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  You know, as opposed to, I just want to be the boss or something.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  I think that's an important distinction.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  And you work your way up to power. I mean, like, I want us all, as Black people, as women in power, to own our spaces. But you really get to own it when it's yours.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Right? And sometimes we get to do that, and sometimes we don't. I've been fortunate enough to be in positions where I've run my own organization. And then being the First Lady of the United States is basically being the CEO of this section of the White House, right? And that's when I was able to say, this is what this will be, while I'm at the helm, right? But I still had to think about the role itself. You know, so when it came to fashion-

• 26:22Speaker 01

  The look, so to speak.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  You know, I've written about the fact that wearing my hair in braids, I started wearing my hair in braids in college, right? But as I went up the professional ranks, being a lawyer, they wanted, you know, I didn't want my hair to be a part of the conversation. I wanted to get the job. So I was straightening my hair, just like everybody in the, every Black woman in the 80s and the 90s.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  The crown had just passed a couple of years ago, so it definitely was something that was held back from us.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  We didn't have that freedom. So I made the decision, you know, look, America is struggling enough to accept the first Black president and first lady. I'm not going to make my hair the issue. You know, that was a choice. You know, I was like, we need to get healthcare passed. You know, we need to focus on getting kids educated and making sure that-

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Because you're delineating what is most important, that process of delineation of what do I should lean here, shall I lean there? That level of responsibility and objectivity, it's really major.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  And it was about something more than what I wanted, right? When I'm, as First Lady of the United States, it wasn't about what I needed to look like. I needed to show up in the way that the country needed me to show up.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Right? And that wasn't a sacrifice. You know, that was just like, this is the job. The job we are here is to serve the nation, to be a representative of this country, to serve it proudly, not to make my hair, my clothes, my shoes, the story. But I did realize the power that I could do with that platform to lift up fashion in a very different way. And so I was like, alright, if everybody's looking at my shoes, then I'm gonna wear a designer that could use the attention, right? I mean, instead of choosing Dior for my inaugural gown,

• 28:24Speaker 00

  I chose Jason Wu. He was an immigrant, he was young. His story mattered in a way that I knew that choosing him to make my gown would change his life in a way that some of those longtime designers, you know, it's like you had your turn.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And I also love that you would be wearing J. Crew. I mean, I remember that as a teenager, and the lady would be like, she's wearing J. Crew, I love J. Crew. How you gonna talk about J. Crew when your wife wears J. Crew? Like, I love that, because it's like, that is a universal, affordable, very nice line. I remember that being such a big topic growing up, because it was accessible.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  You know, and people felt like they could relate to you. Like, she shops where I shop.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Well, fashion is like that. You know, fashion is high-end, it's designers, but it's also, it's also the beautiful stories at the mall that get us through, the J. Crews, the Banana Republics, you know?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Club Monaco, I used to love Club Monaco. Why was I loving that at 14?

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Exactly. All of that is about the American experience. And I was like, well, and I did not wear a lot of European designers, not because I don't love European design, but I am the American First Lady. So I'm gonna rep US brands. So when we would travel abroad, I was like, I'm gonna wear an American designer. If we were in India, it was an Indian immigrant American designer. I mean, there were so many ways to work around representation-

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  By being thoughtful and strategic about how we wanted to show up. And repping Black designers, Tracy Reese, Sergio Hudson. That's my guy, right? I mean, there are just so many amazing minority women designers that it was easy for me to make those choices, to do that mixing up, right? And we also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes. I mean, being First Lady, Barack would look at the clothing bill and be like, girl- I was like, dude. I'm like, dude, just, just stand down. Just stand down, dude. Don't look at my clothing.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Mr. Obama, do you remember the first, the look you wore on your first date?

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Ooh, our first date. You know what? I, I don't.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I know that was a deep cut.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  I, you know, I remember what I was wearing when we had our first kiss.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Give us the details.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  I do remember that. Now, I hope he's happy that I remembered that even before the first date. But I remember it because we were going to a, he was a summer associate at the law firm I was working for. So they had this summer associate outing at a partner's house in the uppity, rich part of Chicago in one of the northern suburbs. So we had gone out there for the day and played basketball and volleyball and all that. And I gave him a ride because he had a janky car and I was driving a Saab. So I was like, you want to ride with me? So I had to take him back. And he was like, are you busy? And I was like, I got a little time.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  And we went on a walk down 53rd Street and stopped to get ice cream. I was wearing black biker shorts.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  And this black and gold stripe top.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  And it was like sleeves, it was like a bow neck.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  It was short sleeves. And it was sort of a long T-shirt.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Oh, cute, cute.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  I remember that clearly because we went and got ice cream and sat outside the ice cream place on the curb. I had chocolate. And he leaned over and he said, can I have a kiss?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  He asked you.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  He asked me, girl.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Girl, I see the movie now. I don't know who the man is, but I'm you. The love, the look, the love story. Kiki Palmer as Michelle Obama. I'm here for that moment.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Okay, my publishers are here. You know, they're working on that now. They're gonna start that.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  I need the romance. I want it to be the love story. Yes. Oh, that is so special.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  I remember that. I remember what I had on.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I mean, your life has gotten, has been so public. I mean, it can never really go backwards. And I know, I'm always hearing this, you say this when we talked on my, on your podcast, when we talked on my podcast, when we're talking right now. You seem to have no qualms about protecting your inner world and your sense of self. I want to distill that for the audience. Like, how, what is that process for you? How do, how does one protect their inner selves, being so perceived? And now we have it on the internet. Even if you're not an entertainer or you don't decide to be a public figure, every single one of us is being perceived constantly. And once you are perceived or you are viewed, you change, right? Once you're, you're not who you are in your room alone when somebody's watching you. You become someone else.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  So how does one preserve that sense of self?

• 33:27Speaker 00

  You know, it, it's becoming more and more difficult with AI, social media. I mean, you know, just to put it in perspective, Kiki, when, when we entered the White House, there was no social media. There was, social media did not exist and thank God it did not, right? We had BlackBerries. Y'all remember the BlackBerry?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  I used to love BBM.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  I mean, they didn't let Barack, as the president, have an iPhone because it was a security risk, right? So I think, first of all, that helped a bit because social media was just starting, right?

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  We were the first presidency coming into being at the beginning of social media. So I think that helped a little bit. So I wasn't used to being able to know everything that everybody said about me, right? That wasn't a possibility.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Right? You, you know, what you got feedback on came through the press. It was an article written and it would be an article, right? You weren't getting 24-hour news feeds. You didn't have a comment section to listen to. So fortunately for me, I didn't even grow up needing that in a way that this generation does.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's another layer to it you're bringing up.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  It was just another layer. So when it became part of my reality, social media, I wasn't addicted to it, right? I didn't, I didn't need it. It wasn't on my phone. I'm still not in the habit of looking at social media. I'm on it, but not of it. You know what I'm saying? And I'm always warning young people to very, be very careful and monitor your access to that. I mean, it's just like, you just don't need to give that many people access to your heart and your mind. And the only way you can control it is to not be in it. And you can be on it, but don't have it on your phone. And I just never did. So I just didn't get in the habit.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I would, I had a whole communications team. I could get press clips. I could get them, I could get them summarized and laid out without knowing the depths of everybody's thought, right? And that's good and bad, right? You know, if you get too much of the good, you get distorted. If you get too much of the bad, you get distorted. And I also knew that if people weren't getting me right, I couldn't trust it to tell me about you. I mean, I, I wouldn't trust social media to tell me about my worst enemy.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  Because it wouldn't be a clear depiction. It wouldn't be real. It wouldn't be right now.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  So how do I protect my space? I just really protect it. I don't, I don't let just anybody into my space. I don't listen to comments from people who don't know me. I never would do that. And I, I just, I, I try to get my daughters, just don't touch it. It's like, it's dynamite, right?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  So that's one way. Another way that I protect my space is who I let in it. You know, it's like my community, my friends, my people. I mean, Barack and I have been very good about the people who have been with us. We bring them along. You know, Barack, his best friends are still his guys from high school. I mean, he's got a crew of guys from Hawaii who are with him like this. I've got girlfriends from law school to mothers that I raised my girls with. Those are my ride or die people, the people who know us outside of this, before we were ever this. And those are the people who I talk to and I'm having wine with, who I'm breaking stuff

• 37:27Speaker 00

  down with. You know, those, that's where I get my connection. How am I doing? I would get that from my mother. I mean, having my mother in the White House. Now, Marion Robinson will keep a person grounded because she wasn't pressed about anything. And having her there, that I could just sit down with and look in the eye and be like, am I still the Michelle you knew? And she would tell me the truth. So I think it's who we surround ourselves with, the company we keep. And I keep expanding. I mean, when I find good people like you, I scoop you up, right? So you get old enough where you start trusting your judgment, right? You, I tell my girls, you got good judgment.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  So be open to new people because some of the best people in my life are people that I met during the White House years and beyond, right? I've made some good friends over the last 10, 15 years. And if I had been closed off to them, I wouldn't know them. But let me tell you, as quickly as you let people in, you got to be good with letting them out when they show you who they are. And they will show you.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  You know? The older you get, the more you recognize, oh, you don't, you know, you don't have me in mind, right? You're not on my team. So you start learning to trust those instincts. And you don't have to be rude about it. I call it the slow ghost. You know, you just slowly let people out of your life. You don't have to make a big deal out of it. You don't have to tell nobody off. You just slowly disappear like a ghost.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  So I'm hearing, obviously, keep a good circle around you. That also helps you to maintain grounded and reflect your truth back to you. We don't let too many people in. Again, with social media, there's a thing, you read and you just assume that that's somehow that person's valid. Don't overvalue.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  And they don't know you.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  They don't know you.

• 39:34Speaker 02

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• 40:19Speaker 02

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• 43:14Speaker 02

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• 43:26Speaker 01

  In terms of, you know, we're bringing up Sasha, Malia, your amazing daughters, and young women in general coming up online, seeing so many conflicting things around beauty. I mean, I would be remiss not to connect that to what we're talking about with the look. How do young women properly define their value and their relationship to beauty? When on one side, they're saying, you need this thing, you need that thing, you need this makeup, you need this hair. And then the other end, it's like, inner beauty, you know? But you need to have glass skin too. Like, how, it's so much coming at them.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  It is, it is, and it's not right. It's not right. I mean, what I try to do to my, with my daughters and a lot of the young girls in my life, I just remind them that they are being marketed to. You know, that this is, like, this is about money, alright? Somebody telling you to buy this lip gloss, this, do this, try that. It's all, it's all your algorithm. So I just try to talk honestly and seriously with them about how the economy works and how the beauty industry works. I try to lift them up. You know, Barack and I tell our daughters, we have told our daughters from the day they were born

• 44:43Speaker 00

  that they were beautiful and, more importantly, smart. Yes. And worthy. And we just keep saying it over and over again. When I meet some young girls, I met some beautiful young girls backstage, and all I wanted them to know is that they were beautiful and for them to keep it up and to be smart and to read. You know, it's just, I try to feed into them whatever is being sucked out of them on the other end. But it isn't easy. We don't set it up so that it is easy for young girls to find themselves in the midst of all of this. But I try to get my daughters to stay off social media,

• 45:23Speaker 00

  to not read the comments, to do other things other than be on their phones. But I also want them to feel good about playing in their beauty.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  And I mean, I feel like with them having had the experience of being so looked at in the White House, they still have such unique style. I remember I was saying, as soon as I seen them, I was like, I love your fashion. I was saying that to Sasha.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  And they're both very different. They're very different.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Sasha gonna give you that boho chic.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Oh my God, yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Malia on that Zoe Kravitz, like, I live for their fashion.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  But I wanted them to play in that space. So I was like, yeah, try that, try that. You know, their dad didn't always understand it. Sometimes he's like, why is she wearing those lashes? I was like, let her play. It's, it's not gonna be that important in a minute, you know? I mean, so there is also fun in beauty.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  You know?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  And I think it should be fun mostly.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  It should be fun. So it's, it's like striking a balance that, you know, I try not to comment too much. You know, if they look good, I'm like, okay, you're playing in that space. I just try not to judge it. Now, our deal when we were in the White House was that, because I understood how social media and the press would go after them, as like, when you're with us, that was really the only time, that was the deal we had with the White House press corps, is that you cannot take photos or write about the girls in their private life, but if they were doing an official thing with us? Okay, that's when you saw them, at the Christmas tree lighting, or when we were seeing Nelson Mandela, or they were on an official trip.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  But they had to be dressed for that. I was like, you can have a say, but you gotta work with somebody on what you're gonna wear. Because you gotta wear a certain thing when you go see the Pope, you know? You can't show up with your belly out when you see the Pope. So I'm not gonna leave that to a 13-year-old. It's like, no, you don't get to choose because you don't know what you're doing, right?

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, you have to think about the look, every aspect of it, you know?

• 47:35Speaker 00

  So we had a deal that when you were on in your first child role, we all, it was a cooperative effort in terms of what they dress, how they look. They had a say, but it had to be signed off on by people, like their mother and somebody with some sense, right?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  But in their regular lives, as little girls, they chose their prom dresses, they chose what they wore to school, they chose how they did their hair and their nails. And I was like, you play all you want. And I wanted them to play and to get used to what their style was and to make mistakes.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  You know, all teenagers look back on their pictures and they think, oh my God, what was I thinking? But you need those moments. It's like, yeah, that was a little crazy.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  And I feel like I started playing more after because I was always on some little Doogie Howser vibe. Everything when I was a teenager, I always had a blazer on. I was really the VP. I was tired of that. When I look back on my pictures, girl, all I was doing was, I'm on Oprah. I'm everywhere I go, I'm at my friend's party. Like, girl, go away. I don't know why I was so serious, child.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Did you get to choose all of your fashion or when you were?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  I did, but I was very, I was very stressed as a kid.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  You know, because I felt so much responsibility.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Responsibility, yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  And I started to hear very early on because the adults or people would come, "My daughter looks up to you and you, I'm watching you, baby." And I'm like, "Oh, no, the aunties, I gotta..." You know, so I was always trying to just, you know, but then it got to a point where-

• 49:08Speaker 00

  It was a little too much black girl magic, which is like, "Oh, child, I can't handle it."

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I was at church every day. I was always at church. And I was just trying so hard to make sure that I made everyone proud, that I was not living for me.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  And so I had to kind of redefine the look.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Well, this is what I was talking about. I mean, that burden, it's like, mine, you know, I was a grown woman. I could be a Doogie Howser if I needed to. I mean, you were growing up, you were trying to figure it out. And I tried to do the opposite of that. I didn't, but that was, that was also your job. You were also in the profession. And that was a choice that you made because you enjoyed that.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Malia and Sasha didn't choose it, right? I think that was also, that's also a different thing.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  It is.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  So I didn't want them to feel like they were carrying a burden with something that they had no say in, in wanting to be. And I think that's, you know-

• 50:07Speaker 01

  And I love hearing you talk about that because, you know, I have my son, he's three, and he's gonna grow up now with, you know, people know, "Oh, your mom is Kiki Palmer," whatever that means and whatever comes with that. And so I love hearing you talk about responsibility and legacy with how you do with Sasha and Malia because it makes me think about how I want to be able to also articulate those nuances to my son. For him to have freedom, to understand what it means, but to also never feel like what I've taken on is something that he then has to take on. So it's very empowering for me.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  And you don't have to be Michelle Obama or Kiki Palmer to feel that. If you are a parent that has a child that you feel is, feels pressured to follow in your footsteps, we all as parents are trying to figure out that balance of letting our kids be who they want to be, without them being mini-me's. So it's the same struggle, y'all. It's just at a, it's just that our struggle is on TV.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so true. I always feel like that, you know, we're all living the same kind of thing, just from different vantage points. So I love how you, how you brought that down.

• 51:15Speaker 02

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• 52:44Speaker 01

  What is the difference between, to you, assimilating to make it through an experience versus thriving in it?

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  I know that was a big one.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Well, you know, assimilating through, I think it's too, is too self-conscious. I think thriving through it means that you really are in your purpose in the moment. Like, when you're in your purpose in the moment, nothing else matters. And let me give you an example. When I'm with kids, and when I was first lady, working with kids, what is, was, will always be my joy, my heart. I can break down now just talking about the, the value and worth of every child, right?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Every man.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  And when I am with young people, I am there, I am in it. It doesn't matter what I have on. In fact, the clothes I have on, they better not get in the way of that interaction. Because the more important thing is not what I look like, but how do I make that kid feel? And if I'm all stuffy and in some dress that can't be touched and can't be wrinkled, I am not in my purpose, right? So in those moments, the clothes have to facilitate the thing I'm trying to do, which is connect with this kid right now. And if that means I gotta get on the floor, you know, if I've gotta get down to their level, if that means we're gonna do a push-up together, we're gonna run around,

• 54:23Speaker 00

  or somebody's gonna wanna sit on my lap or give me a sloppy little hug, then the clothes have to be ready for that. And that's, I would tell my stylist that all the time. It's like, if kids are around, don't put me in something precious. Because you know, the minute a child comes, I'm on the floor. I am doing whatever I have to do to connect. And I think that that's when you, you're no longer conscious. You're no longer self-conscious, right?

• 54:54Speaker 01

  You're losing yourself in the purpose, whatever that you used, you know, or whatever accumulated you to that point that got you prepared. Once you're in it, that all disappears and you submerge yourself.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  That's right. It should, your, your self disappears into the work that's important, right? And when it comes to clothes, the clothes are not, they're never the point for me, you know? I love to look cute. I love a pretty dress. But if I'm in a dress and a child doesn't feel like they can connect to me, then what's the point? You know, if, if my dress is saying more than what I'm trying to say to some young person, then get it off of me. It's not, it is not serving me and it's no longer important to me, right? And I think that, for me, it's children. I think each and every one of us has to find, when we find that thing

• 55:46Speaker 00

  that is so deep in us, the thing that moves us so much, all the external stuff, how we look, how we move, all that becomes secondary to the purpose. And I think that that, for me, is what helps me stay present and not be self-conscious. Because if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and if I'm changing a life or my move, making a move, if I'm making somebody feel seen, especially a young person, then I don't care what somebody says about me.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  That seems like a great way to also figure out if you are, in fact, doing the thing you should be doing. Because maybe if I'm not able to lose myself in it like that, then it isn't for me to begin with.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  And again, we don't always all get to live in our purpose, right?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Well, let's break that down.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  I think we strive to live there, but again, reality sets in, right? These are high-class problems. I get to pick and choose now, right? And some, most of us don't get to live in our purpose. We gotta do what we gotta do to keep it together. It is hard. That doesn't mean we don't strive for it, but, you know, I don't wanna set it up in a way, like, I know what real life is, right?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  I know that my father, my father was an artist. My father got a scholarship to the Art Institute. He could have been a great artist, but some of his work is now up at the Presidential Center. A piece of art that I didn't even know he did, I didn't see it until it was there. My father was talented, gifted. He was an artist. He did not live in his purpose, right? But he, but he made us his purpose. He made his children his purpose, right? And I think that made him self-conscious. I think it made him forget about his limp. I think it made him forget about the fact that he was a blue-collar worker.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  I think it made him forget about all the things that he didn't have and couldn't get because his purpose was us feeding into me and my brother. And there are a lot of people out there, I mean, I think most people, most of our parents and our grandparents, who don't get to do what they wanna do because of racism, limitations, lack of opportunity, they don't get to live their purpose. And then we, their offspring, become their purpose.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Well, what you just broke down was just so dope as well because sometimes we assume that what we are gifted with is our purpose, right? We talented, we could sing, we could do this, we could do that. When our purpose actually could be something that, that is my children or this, or this community center, or this, I think that is so important, what you said, because a lot of times we're taught that value and purpose is predicated on how much attention it brings.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Or how much money it makes.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And that's not really true.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Or how famous you are, right? That's new to this generation, right? So I think there are many ways to get lost and to become less self-conscious about the spaces that you're in. If you're going to a job where somebody is treating you badly, but you know that check is gonna get your kids to college, there are a lot of people I know who put up with some crazy stuff because they're keeping their eye on the prize. They're not dealing in their own happiness or fulfillment or meaning. I know there are men and women out here today who are getting up, going to work at jobs they don't like because it's putting food on the table and sending their kids to college.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  It is serving a purpose much bigger than them.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  How important is it, do you think, to put, to have an end date on that? I ask this because someone had mentioned that to me the other day when I was stressed. You know, because you know me, I'm unfortunately always trying to do so many things. And I'm always gotta, being a mission. And they were like, "Well, when's the end date on that?"

• 59:46Speaker 00

  What do you mean, the end date on stress?

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Not on stress, but on- For instance, is there an end date on this job that they hate? Meaning, when I get to year three and I made X amount of dollars? Do you think it is important for us to do that when we're in these situations? That may not be that fitting for us, where like, we have an end date. Look, by March, it's March right now, by August, I'm going to X, Y, and Z. Do you think that's even a fair way to move?

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  I don't, um, I, I think we all have to... What I try to figure out, what I have still tried to figure out is, what is my happiness, mine? And I think we all have a different definition for it. What I have learned in all these years with all the powerful tables that I've sat in and all that I've seen, the thing that I know is that it has nothing to do with how much stuff I have, how much, how big a house, how much money is in the bank account, even though there is a number that matters, that makes life a lot easier.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  I have learned that, for me, enough comes when I feel like I have friendship, I have love, I have a good community around me, and I feel like I have given something to somebody else. I don't know that there's an end date on it in terms of the do, but at some point, I have to be settled. I have to say, I am enough. I have done enough. I am okay, you know? That's all an internal struggle. Like, the end, we have to figure it out for ourselves, right? I mean, I know.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  What a doozy.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  You know, it's one of those things where it's, it's also tailor-made, is what I'm hearing. We're all on our own individual relationship with that.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  But I think it starts with how we feel about ourselves, you know? I mean, I think we can, we can work for all this external approval, somebody else to tell us that we're beautiful, we could wait and hold our breaths to have somebody else love us enough, you know? But in the end, the work is really with us on us, you know? It's the war, it's the finally sitting in your own head and saying, I don't need anyone else to tell me that I'm worthy, and that's, that is...

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  It's almost like the look is based on what we see when we looking in the mirror.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  You know, that, that's a huge part of it, is like, accepting our own gaze.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  And being happy with what we see. And it's amazing that when we get to that place, everything else seems to settle down around us, you know?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Because I think we're carrying that frequency, we're carrying that energy with us that it probably, yeah, just changes the game.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  And we're starting not to give a mm about what somebody else says and thinks, and that takes a minute. You know, you earn that wisdom, you know? And that's why, Kiki, don't be, don't get impatient with yourself, you 12 and 1/2.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  I am impatient, you know that.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  You are a baby, and some of this stuff, wisdom is for the old, you know? It takes time to go through some stuff, and at 62 years old, I am, I am developing, I'm still growing, still developing some wisdom that, but it's all about how I see me, you know? It is that, it's that gaze of myself, right?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Wow, wow, that is so awesome. Um, well, time is coming to an end. I want, I mean, there's so many more things that I can ask you. We got to do a part two, three, four, five, like always. Um, but before we go...

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Yo, it's ladies' night, there's a lot more coming. You be happy to get on with it.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they got a lot of fun stuff coming to the stage.

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  This is gonna be a good night.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  But before we leave, you know, I love to play a game, so I thought we could play a fun game.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  We gonna play a game.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Keep it, change it, leave it, okay?

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Keep it, change it, leave it.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  So it's a little rapid fire, I'm gonna give you some prompts.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  Oh, Lord, I gotta be rapid? Oh, Lord.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  The rapid is always crazy, because like, honestly, how fast do I have to be?

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  You're gonna tell me if you want to keep it, change it, leave it? And you'll tell me a little bit of why, maybe?

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Okay, here we go. The first one is power suits.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Uh, keep it, you know? There's nothing wrong with a good power suit, especially if you can wear pants. I, I hate pantyhose. I am done.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Pantyhose always tear, like, why they make them so thin and frilly?

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  That's why they mess with us. They, they make us wear something that you can wear once. It's, it's a dumb thing, dumb invention.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Being the first, like, the first, you know, carpenter, the first, uh, you know, black female president.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Keep it for sure.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  First lady, I mean.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Like, we better be ready for some firsts, there's a lot of stuff we didn't get to do, so we want to keep the first. We still have, we got our ways to, we got a lot of stuff we're trying to get in, so we want to definitely keep that.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  A lot of times people are hard on the first, but I feel the same way as you do.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  That's okay, we can have, we're prepared for it, we're prepared for it. We've been preparing for years to be the first.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Um, perfectionism.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  Perfectionism, what was it?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Keep it, change it, leave it.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  I would change it, change the meaning of it. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to do your best, but not placing everything, not, not making that be the reason for everything. I think change what it means, you know? Keep it, but change the, don't, don't let it mean so much. Exactly, exactly.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  I took that, that was me personally.

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Girl boss culture.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  Girl boss culture?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I guess the way I would describe it is like, you know, just this idea of being, you know, needing to be a boss, you know, like, oh, I'm a boss, I'm a boss of this or that, you know? The, the idea around that the best role, position is whatever a boss is.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know, I don't know if I, I, I would leave that, right? Because, like, you should be the role that is suited for you, and not everybody wants to be a boss, and that's okay, that's not always the best position. Let me tell you, being a boss sucks sometimes, you know? It's not all that it's cracked up to be, so I, I would, I would leave it.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I feel you, I agree. Um, working twice as hard, you kind of said something similar to this with the perfection. I think I know what you might would say.

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, look, I would, I would keep it, because I always think, even if I work twice as hard, even if you don't see it, I'm still better than you.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  I still win.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  I mean, and it's like going to the gym, right? Like, I'm still getting stronger.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  You know, so what could be wrong about it for me?

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  I'll use that muscle.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Okay, just three more? Code switching.

• 1:07:27Speaker 00

  Code switching? I'd change it. I think it's a, it's a tool to have, but there shouldn't be a code we have to switch from. I mean, that's part of what we talk about when it comes to our hair and how we show up in the world. As long, I want the code to broaden.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  But I do think there are times when you do need to show up in the way that you need to show up.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Because that's the job.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Or just the translation of language in that moment in time, you know? It's like multiple languages. Um, protecting your peace.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Oh, keep it, woo, keep it and never let it go, ever, ever, ever.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  And then this is the last one, reinvention after 50.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Oh, keep it, y'all. Let me tell you, anybody over 50?

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Anybody over 50?

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  You know, this time in life is the best. It is the best, you talk about freedom.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  That's so exciting.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  I would keep it, there's a lot of good stuff coming.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  I got 20 more years to go, I'm on my way.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  Take, take your time, but when you get there, let's talk, because I'll be, uh, I'll be 70.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yes, I need to be over there with you in some island somewhere.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  There you, come on, come on.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Well, I just thank you so much, Mrs. Obama.

• 1:08:56Speaker 00

  Thank you, Kiki. And thank you to Essence for having me. I love you all so, so much. And I love you, Kiki Palmer.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  And I love you too, Mrs. Michelle Obama. Thank you, guys, God bless you, and we'll see you, enjoy the rest of your Essence.

• 1:09:40Speaker 03

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.