Move Through the Hard Times with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson joins Michelle and Craig to talk through her life before taking the bench. She opens up about past relationship struggles, gaining confidence in her work and balancing her career with early motherhood. Plus, she shares the romantic comedy-worthy story of how she met her husband. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You said you were in a production with Matt Damon?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  I was not in a production. I was in a class. I was in a class with Matt Damon. So he, at that point, he was already into community theater. He was kind of known on campus as someone who wanted to be an actor. So I took a drama class, just a regular, you know, credit class. And he happened to be in it. And then for one scene, the professor paired me with him. And it was something like waiting for Godot, like a boring play.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  But we did this scene. And at the end, the professor was like, Ketanji, you were so good. Matt, we'll talk.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  What's up?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  Hi, Craig.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  Nice suit.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  We have a special guest, so I wanted to kind of show up like, I mean, business.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  And make me feel underdressed.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  I know. I should have called you and been like, boy, put on a jacket. But that's cute. That's very non-

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's just what I want to be in front of a Supreme Court Justice is cute.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  Just very cute. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you, you, you did your best. How's it going? How's life?

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Life's good. Life is really good. Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  You, where are you staying?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  I'm staying in the Hollywood Hills, so not far from here.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  A real nice Airbnb. It's like, what I like about this one's got a lot of outdoor family space. I mean,

• 1:39Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  There are balconies off of almost every room, and then it's got a huge sort of patio.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not rambling around there lonely.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, hearing an echo because I'm the only one in a four-bedroom place. So it's really nice and it's in a really good neighborhood.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  And it just reminded me of why people, a good reason why people open their homes up and, and, and have them on Airbnb so that you can show off your neighborhood and walk around the Hollywood Hills.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Is that what people, you think that the family that owns this house wants you to?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Well, I think they want a little extra cash.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I was wondering. It's like, I think that's the real reason.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  It's a really cool neighborhood and it's, and I'm not in the steep part, so I can walk around.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Did you go for a while?

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Not yet. Not yet.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  I've been working.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  I don't, you know, you woke up this morning.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  It is, it is. Well, I had a meeting this morning, so I was, I was up early. But if I didn't have a meeting, it's close enough to Laurel Canyon Road where you can walk down. You can walk down there and then you're back in civilization.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  So with shops and if you wanted to walk and get your morning coffee, you could?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I could.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  I think you should do that tomorrow and tell me all about it.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  I might do that.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Well, I think we should get to it. We, you know,

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  I mean, we, it feels like we're becoming a, a big girl and boy podcast.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  I know. This is, this is-

• 3:13Speaker 00

  With our, our guests today. It's like we, we're elevating ourselves, you know?

• 3:19Speaker 02

  I, you have probably met Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, but I have never met her. And it, she doesn't seem like a Supreme Court Justice. She's so delightful and-

• 3:33Speaker 00

  That's a big diss to the others that you don't know.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  I haven't met any, so this is the first one. So, but I was, I was-

• 3:40Speaker 00

  But she gives you an air of delight unlike the others.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Well, no, I wasn't going to say that, but you see how, see, that's what Mish does. She puts words in my mouth. And then I end up being scolded on social media. No, but I'm, I'm really excited about our discussion because the, I, I just can't wait to talk about her life and-

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not often that people get access to a sitting Supreme Court Justice.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I know. How do we get so lucky?

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Oh, man, I don't know. Just born that way. Well, let's, let's, let's give her proper introduction and let's get this conversation started.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  So Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, confirmed in 2022 as the first African-American woman to serve on the court. And she is the author of The Lonely One, which we have here, The Lovely One. See, I'm so nervous.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, just settle down. I mean, you're shaking a little bit.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  I know, I know. I'm really excited.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  Justice Jackson, you got-

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Justice Jackson, please come join us before I-

• 4:48Speaker 00

  You've got my brother all shook.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for being here.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Welcome to IMO.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  This is wonderful. Yes, I'm perfect.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. Well, it is really, really an honor. You know, just for our listeners and viewers, we've met on several occasions. But we have never had, you know, the real time to just check in and be. So I'm, I'm sorry that we're doing this, you know, on, on television.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  I'm delighted to be here, so.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  But, but you also, you've got the young adults version of Lovely One coming out. Congratulations.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  It's out and I'm so proud of it, being able to give younger, a younger audience a chance to check in with my story. I think it will be great.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  What I get out of your memoir is at a young age, you were really, should I say, competitive, driven? I mean, like, you know, it, you, it come, it comes out.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Well, I do think that I saw that pretty early on. I mentioned that my parents were public school teachers. But when I was three years old, my dad decided to go to law school. And that's not, you know, something that happens every day, that someone who has a small kid decides to go to school. And some of my earliest memories are of sitting at the kitchen table on the University of Miami campus, which is where my dad went to law school. And my dad has his law books all stacked up and I have my coloring books all stacked up. And we worked together. And so from that young, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer because I thought that's what you did. But watching him study, watching him strive and say, this is something that I want to do,

• 6:48Speaker 01

  I think really formed me early on as someone who was going to continue to try to improve myself through education and be a lawyer and maybe even become a judge. You know, those sorts of ideas I think were planted very early. And then I had the really wonderful opportunity to go to a big public high school in South Florida. But we had a fabulous debate team. And my debate coach was an extraordinary mentor for me. And she just believed in me. She just believed in me. And doing speech and debate, I think, was really the beginning of my, you say, competitive spirit

• 7:32Speaker 01

  because it was a competitive event. And I tell people now, you know, if you want your kids to be resilient, to understand how to deal with failure, to develop the kind of spirit of perseverance that it's going to take to be really successful. You should have them do something competitive when they're young. Get them into some kind of, whether it's sports or a debate or something. Very helpful, in my opinion, to form the right mindset to, to, to succeed later on.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  In my opinion, too.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I know. You're a big sports guy.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  One thing I wanted to ask, what was it like being the smart kid in your family and in your community?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Very lonely. I mean, I was president of my high school class, big class, 750 kids.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  And on the debate team, very, very successful. So I was popular. But just not in the way that resulted in any dates or prom invitations. And so it was lonely in that sense. And that had, that was something that I had to overcome and actually played itself out in my eventual courtship and dating my husband because he actually was my first boyfriend.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  We gonna talk about that.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Okay.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  We gonna talk about that.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  We met in college and that was really my very first time dating anyone.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Your first date was in college? I thought I was bad.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Well, he was always in the gym.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  But this is, you know, I mean, I, like you, and I want to talk about your Harvard experience. One of the reasons I got through Princeton. He was there and he was good ballast for me, but we were there only two years. But it was because of that community. Of kids who were like me.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Right?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  And I always try to make this point. It's like, you don't, you don't do kids of color service by plucking them out and making them one of a few.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  And then scattering them about the campus.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  I, I think that's absolutely right. And, and it describes more of my high school experience, even though I was popular.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Than it did my college experience, which I loved.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  I loved because at the time that I went to Harvard, which we're contemporaries in terms of the, the, the timing of it, there was a sizable black community on campus. And it was like, I found my people, in a sense. You know, the people who had similar life experiences and backgrounds that I had. Where you could feel totally comfortable being yourself. And my roommates and I, and I talk a lot in the book about them. Um, I roomed with five other black women. And there were six of us on campus. And then we were within this larger community. And it was just amazing.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  It was amazing.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Because you experienced homesickness. It's, you know, as smart as of a student as you were.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Leaving home and going to a college setting in Harvard and Princeton, these schools, these elite schools, with systems of education that are still somewhat different.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  You know?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  It takes a minute to adjust to living on your own. It takes a minute to adjust. You know, I got to Princeton and I realized that, you know, I'm going to school with a bunch of kids who went to college preparatory schools.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  The choats and the exitters of the world. And I'm like, oh, wow, you did this.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Already.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  You've been living this life for the last three, four years.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  And I'm just showing up and you already took this course. You read these books. You did this thing that I didn't get in my little public high school.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  On the south side of Chicago.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Very sobering. Sobering thought. You know, I came from Florida, very different cultural environment anyway.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And then to meet the kinds of students that you're talking about, who were in some ways that much farther ahead because they had, uh, not only grown up or been in the New England environment, so had already adjusted to, to that way of being, but also had a prep school kind of background. Was very daunting, especially at the beginning. And I think the thing that really saved me was a couple of things. You know, I, I certainly tried to keep and did keep the connection to home.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  My mother and my aunt, they used to write me letters. So I'd get these letters from home in a way that was very important. Um, and also, um, doing well in my very first set of classes.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, I had the same.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Did you have that?

• 12:34Speaker 00

  Really? No, please, Todd.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. No, I mean, I, once you get there and you are able to show and demonstrate to yourself.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  That you have the ability, even though there are others who have different advantages than you do. I think that is a really important, significant step. And so in my first semester, I took a class, uh, called Justice, which I loved. And, uh, it was on legal and political philosophy. Very interesting, big class. It was in the large theater. And I was always too intimidated to say anything.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  The professor asked, you know, for classroom participation. I never spoke, but I took notes and I talked to the teaching fellows and I really loved the class. And, um, I had to write a paper in my expository writing class about an experience as a first year on campus. And what I wrote about was the experience of being in justice in this big class. And so I reflected on the class and then I did well in the class. And I think that was really, um, the launching pad for me. I said, okay, I'm from this big public high school in a totally different place, but look, you know, I did well in this class and it really made me feel. So what about you? What was your class?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  I mean, it was the, it was the same thing. I mean, I had my brother, but he was a big jock, you know? He was the big man on campus, star basketball player. What are you about to say?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  No, I wasn't gonna say any, I wasn't gonna say anything.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  You were about to deny it?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  No, I was not.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  I was Craig Robinson's little sister. So, you know, I, I knew that, you know, at least I had him to say, you know, he, he, I was always the more focused student than he was.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  She was a better student than I was.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  You know? But he, yeah, he got into Princeton. You did not get into Princeton on athletics. You had to get in there on academics. But when you see your brother do it, you know, there's a part of me that's like, I'm pretty sure I can do this.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  She's being really nice. She's being really nice. Me, she knew how to study.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  From a young, young age. I did, I did well taking tests. That's how I got into everything. I knew how to, I just had a knack for taking tests, but I didn't study. So my first experience, I'm hijacking your story. But my first experience at Princeton, I took the wrong courses. I took chemistry, physics,

• 15:18Speaker 01

  At the beginning?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Economics.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  At the beginning?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  It's a very big, and chemistry, physics, economics and calculus.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Because I was gonna be an engineer, but I wasn't prepared.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  And he was on the varsity team.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And I was playing basketball.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  He was a freshman, you were on varsity as a freshman.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, and, and I almost failed out of school. And I called my dad, Mr. Chill.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  And there are no 100 level courses at Princeton for these in math and science.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  It was bad counseling and I forgive my counselor for this, for putting me in these, for putting me in these courses.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  I mean, that's really, because I, that's part of the experience I had.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Not knowing what courses to take.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  It was malpractice and, and, and so my, end of my first semester, I got two Cs, a D and an F. Those were the lowest grades I've ever gotten in my whole life. And I called my dad in tears.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  I'm in over my head. I shouldn't have come here.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  I gotta get out of here. I'm gonna fail.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  And this is a guy who did not go to college, has MS, working for the city of Chicago. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, relax, relax, relax. Now tell me about this again and what courses are you taking? And he goes through this whole thing and I'm like, he doesn't know what he's doing, right? And he said, the final thing he said, how many people are in that school? And he said, I said, 4,000, but what does that have to do to it? I'm like, it threw tears. And he said, well, that means there's a thousand guys in a class, a thousand people in the class.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  And he said, okay, we've, we've, we've figured out you're not gonna be number one in the class. But you're not gonna be number 1,000. And it hit me as like, it's no way I'm gonna be number 1,000. He's like, just get out of those courses.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Take something that you're interested in.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  And to your point, as soon as I did that and, and had some academic success, I felt intellectually able to compete.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  And it changed my whole view of the whole process.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  And it made me a better everything, better person, better player.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  But a better combatant in the classroom.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Right. Because you believed in yourself at that point.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  And I was just on the wrong path.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Mish, you know how much I love sardines.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't know why I know so much about why you love sardines.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  But I'm actually proud to say I've got some converts now. Our producers and even some of our listeners have written in and said they're fans too. So I was scrolling through social media and found this amazing recipe for sardine pasta with linguine capers, Parmesan, olive oil. Be honest, if I whip that up for you, would you at least give it a try?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Look, if you cooked anything for me, I would give it a try. But that recipe doesn't sound bad. I am among the sardine lovers. I grew up in the same household, so I love sardines and that, the salty taste. I can, I can see where it's, it could be a treat. So if you cooking, I'm eating.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Good, that's good to hear. But you know, people are never neutral on sardines. You either love them or you hate them.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Kind of like beats.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  But honestly, the game changer for me was how easy it is to just stock up. Whenever I'm back from practice and craving them without wanting to leave the house, I just pull up Shipt for the same day delivery. It's a total lifesaver. Wait, wait, Mish.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  What?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Are you judging me right now?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I don't know why you're so into sardines, but no, no judgment here.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  No, but in all seriousness, Shipt really has been convenient in those moments. Or even when I'd rather be using brain space on something other than a grocery list. And I love how particular they can be. Shoppers with Shipt are hyper vigilant, putting in the effort that I would at the grocery store. They communicate with you while they shop, check in if something's unavailable, and really pay attention to the details. One time I asked for avocados that would be ripe by that following weekend and they nailed it. I have Shipt to thank for my gua. With Shipt, you can order same day delivery on everything you need from a variety of

• 20:03Speaker 02

  stores, including retailers like Safeway, Albertsons, Michael's, Target, and PetSmart, as well as local grocery stores exclusive to your area. Get a $49 annual membership with promo code PODCAST at shipt.com/offer. That's S-H-I-P-T.com/offer. Terms apply.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  So when was it that you were thinking in your mind, not that I'm just gonna be an attorney or a lawyer, but I'm gonna be a judge?

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I remember thinking that when I got introduced to Constance Baker Motley. And I don't mean introduced in person. I mean, I was in middle school and I learned about her. Because of all things, we share a birthday. We were both born on September 14th, 49 years to the day apart. And I was reading some article, probably in one of the few magazines that my parents allowed, Jet or Ebony or Essence, right? About, you know, famous people with birthdays in September. And I said, this woman has my birthday. And she, Constance Baker Motley, was the first African-American woman to be appointed

• 21:25Speaker 01

  to the federal bench. And she had been one of Justice Thurgood Marshall, when he was a lawyer, one of his proteges and in his group of counsel. And she was a civil rights lawyer who had argued cases all through the South and in the Supreme Court. She was the first black woman to argue in the Supreme Court. And she argued something like 10 cases and she won nine of them. And she was extraordinary. And President Johnson put her on the bench in the mid 1960s. So when I'm in middle school, there's this black woman who is a federal judge. And I had wanted to be a lawyer, but she shared my birthday and I figured maybe I can be a judge.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  And then around at the same time, Justice O'Connor gets appointed to the Supreme Court. And I remember that. It was a huge deal to have a woman appointed to the Supreme Court. So it was like then that I had this idea that I wanted to be on the Supreme Court. And when I applied to college, I wrote in my essay to Harvard that you really have to accept me because I would like to be the, I think it will help me with my dream of being the first black female Supreme Court Justice to appear on a Broadway stage. That was, that was the line.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  That's crazy. It was crazy. But they were compelled, apparently.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Well, this is different. She stands out.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Way to make yourself stand out, yes.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  So, and so it's happened.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  It has happened, yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  So I get on the court.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Talk about manifestation, young people. You can do anything you want.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  You know, I, I got on the court and the producers of a Broadway show, I put this in the book and they read the book and they called me up and they said, you've done the first part, we can help you with the second part. Do you want to be in our show? And I said, sure.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  And, you know, and just to make us all mad, in addition to being so smart and accomplishment, you can sing and accomplish, you can, you have a beautiful voice.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  I can sing.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  I mean, very happy to.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  That doesn't seem fair.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Well, I, I will tell you, I am very grateful for all the many talents. And it's so much fun.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did you do theater? I can't remember in the book. Did you do it at Harvard?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  So I did it at Harvard, yeah. So there were some events in speech and debate. I was on the speech side of speech and debate. Oratory was my primary event in high school, which is where you write your own speech and deliver it. And then in college, I shifted completely from speech and debate and just did theater. And I did, I guess you say I sing. I, my big moment in college was I played Billie Holiday in a cabaret.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Lady sings the blues.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  About her life. And I practiced her intonations in, it was fabulous. It was so fun.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  And you said you were in a production with Matt Damon?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  I was not in a production. I was in a class. I was in a class with Matt Damon. So he, at that point, he was already into community theater. He was kind of known on campus as someone who wanted to be an actor. So I took a drama class, just a regular, you know, credit class and he happened to be in it. And then for one scene, the professor paired me with him. And it was something like Waiting for Godot, like a boring play.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  But we did this scene and at the end, the professor was like, Ketanji, you were so good, Matt will talk.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, I was better than Matt Damon. I was better than Matt Damon.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Have you ever, has he heard that story?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  Make sure he hears that because you were better than him and I bet he'll never hear that from Justice Roberts. Matt Damon, you wrote better than Justice Jackson.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  No, it was, it was so funny.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Justice Jackson, you had all the chops. You're actor, you know, great orator, beautiful voice. Why? Why on, why on earth?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Did I pick the path?

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Did you go to law school?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  You know, I always, always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought it was the highest and best use of my time and talent. My parents raised me to be a public servant. They were public servants. My dad, as I said, went to law school, but then he ended his career as the school board attorney for the Miami-Dade County School Board. So they were always, my mother was the principal for the School for the Arts. Public service in, in our blood. I never really thought of doing something professionally other than going to law school, being in a position to make the arguments and do the things that I thought were necessary

• 26:40Speaker 01

  to advance our country with all of the issues that we are facing.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  That sounds noble and true.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  But I still had fun. I still had fun.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get to that. You have fun and you had love.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  I had love.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  So you met your husband at Harvard.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  You've heard Patrick.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  I met Patrick.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  First of all, let me just say, he's cute.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  He's super sweet.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  He's super sweet, yeah.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Oh, and your love story is just so, I mean, it's like way to have the best story, love story and not have had a boyfriend.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  It was, it was extraordinary.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  God just said, you need a good one.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  And he gave me one. I mean, I honestly had decided after high school that I probably would not find anyone. I probably would not marry, that it was gonna be enough for me to just be professionally successful in doing what I'm doing. So I was not looking for any kind of.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  You weren't manifesting. You didn't put that in your college, just say.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  I did not, I did not.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  And I went to this class, Patrick, we met in college. And he is a year ahead of me.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  And so he was a junior and I was a sophomore. And he was a sociology major, even though he was pre-med. So he had to take the core courses around that.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  So she majored.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He loves sociology. And there was this sociology core, basic course called the changing concept of race in America. And so I took it, a lot of black people took it. Patrick, my husband, who is not black, took it.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  White boy in the class. Like, look down there, what do you know? Was he raising his hand? Did he have things to say?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  He was not raising his hand. He was sitting behind me, tapping on my shoulder, trying to talk to me.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Okay, player.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yes, he was trying to talk to me. So I would look back and I was like, who is this guy? Why is he doing that? And I didn't know what it looked like to have somebody flirt with you and like you. I honestly did not. So I just thought, this is kind of weird. But I thought he was kind of cute and I did like him. So after about maybe two or three weeks of the class, I noticed that he is very talkative in this way and very flirty in this class, like three days a week, we had this class. And then I would see him on the other days, you know, we had this class, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, on Tuesday and Thursday, I would see him in a government class, because I was a government major. And he wouldn't talk to me at all.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  It's like, oh, no, you did not.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Ah, at all.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Don't be talking to me in the black class.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  See me outside of the black class and you don't know me, you tapping on my shoulder.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  And my roommates, I raised this with them and they're like, leave him alone. He's crazy. Don't have anything to do with him.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  This is the black girl posse, by the way.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yes, they were like, okay, no, no. So I said, you know what? I'm going to confront him on one of the friendly days.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Way to go.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  On the friendly day. So one of the days where he's talking to me, I said, listen, why, why don't you talk to me in our government class? And he says, I'm not taking a government class. And I said, yes, you are. I see you in this class. I tried to wave to you, you don't say anything. And he says, oh, you must be talking about my identical twin brother.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Because he has an identical twin brother.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  That should have come to his mind first.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Really?

• 30:19Speaker 01

  I will give you the excuse.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  And why did his brother kind of say?

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Here's the reason, it's so interesting. We talked about the prep school kids. They grew up in Boston. They went to separate prep schools and private schools from when they were in kindergarten. So they weren't used to being together. My brother, they went to separate boarding schools all through and just were not used to, they had their separate friends and separate, and no one ever mixed them up. And Harvard was the first time when they came back since kindergarten. And we're in the same school environment. So people would mix them up all the time. People would mix them up all the time and they would not think.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  They have no idea.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  They would not think to say. And so, once we cleared that up, which was a little something at the beginning, it was, we were off to the races.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Something I love about the age of the internet is how many of my friends are now able to build their own businesses online. I know people who started by selling a few things out of their garage, looking at you, Kelly, and also friends who turned their side hustles into full-time businesses. Across the board, they all rave about Shopify. If you've been tuning in, you've definitely heard me talk about Shopify. Shopify gives you all the tools to build your store, manage customers, and grow your businesses without feeling overwhelmed. And now Shopify is offering Sidekick, which is basically an AI co-founder. It can help with things like analyzing sales trends, creating promotions, and handling

• 31:58Speaker 02

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• 32:40Speaker 02

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• 33:23Speaker 02

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• 34:08Speaker 02

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• 34:45Speaker 01

  This was at the beginning of that, of my sophomore year. We didn't start dating until the last day of my sophomore year. But we were friends, and he, in fact, dated another girl during this time. And then that really solidified for me that he did not like me, you know? We were just friends. Then they broke up, and then he was from the Boston area, and his family has a house on the Cape. They're rich.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm just helping the story along.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  He is a Boston Brahmin. So.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Wait, what's a Brahmin?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  A Brahmin is like this group of people who have been here since the Mayflower.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  They were the pilgrims.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Who can like trance, trace their families back to that time. So he's, he's, he's seventh, sixth or seventh generation Harvard. Generation Harvard. Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  He's one of those.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Holy smokes.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  So, but, but really cool. Really cool. He's in the sociology class.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Clearly, he's cool. We, we gonna give him that.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  So he says to me, the day before the last day, I'm about to go home to Florida for the summer. He says, you know, do you want to go to the Cape and see my family's Cape house that I've been telling you all about? And I said, okay, sure. And he goes to his family's house, he gets the car, he picks me up, and we're driving. And I remember sitting in the car going, is this a date? I wonder if this is a date. I don't know if this is a date.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Like, Justin Jackson's like, I've never been on one. So I don't know, I don't know if this is how it goes. You're just getting in the car with the guy.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  I hope so, because he was cute and he invited me. So we go to this Cape house and it's closed because it hasn't opened yet for the summer. It's kind of cold.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  Because you learn that about summer houses, too. We don't know about that.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  I don't know anything about it.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  And it's like, you got another house and it's not open yet.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Why would, why would the door be closed?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  It was closed, exactly. So we go to the, to this house and we're walking around and he's showing me, and the house is actually on a private island. It's like a whole thing.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Did you have to take a ferry to get there?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  There's a one-lane little bridge that goes over. But there are seven houses on this island.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  You didn't have any of that get out?

• 37:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  No, not at the time. Don't go over the bridge.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  No, but so we're walking around and he's showing me we're down by the water and it's all great. Nothing happens. He doesn't try to hold my hand. He doesn't try to. We're by ourselves the whole day. By the end of it, I am furious, furious.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  It's like you wasted my time.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  I was like, I thought this was a date. I thought you liked me. Obviously you don't. I just want to go home. And he says, my family lives in Dedham, which is not too far from Cambridge. Why don't I take you there and I'll make dinner and then I'll take you back to the dorm and you can finish packing. I say, whatever, because I'm like furious. So we go to his house and his parents are there and they're very lovely. And he makes spaghetti or something for dinner. And then he says, well, why don't we watch a movie? And then after the movie, I'll take you home. And I was like, fine. So we go to the den and we sit down. And I'm just thinking, I just, I'm so humiliated.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  What was the movie?

• 38:07Speaker 01

  The movie was Al Pacino's Sea of Love. And we're sitting there and he turns off the lights and we're sitting. And I'm just very, very annoyed. And he does one of these things.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  And I'm like.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Patrick making a move.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  I jump up and I say, no, because I had convinced myself that he did not like me.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Oh, you didn't say that to him. It was saying that in your head.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  No, I said, no to him.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  No, but all the, she was mad.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Yes, other stuff, the mad stuff was in my head because I figured he had a whole day to show some affection. He had not done so. And so he was now just trying to take advantage of me as far as I was concerned. I was like, this is crazy. So I jumped up and I said, no. And he said, what's wrong? And he stood up and I said, I just don't want to be hurt. And he said, Ketanji, I will never hurt you. I love you.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  I know.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  And I was like.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  And the crowd goes silent. And there are tears.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I was like.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  And then the music plays.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  I was, I mean, it was, I was shocked because I really, I'd never had a relationship. I didn't think he liked me. I liked him so much, but this was a disaster.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And then he told me he loved me. And it was.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  On your first date.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  On our first day. So from that day.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  But they had been friends.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  So from that point until we got married, six and a half years, through his medical school, through my law school. We dated and then got engaged.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  He's a doctor too, y'all.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  So we got married six and a half, and we've been married now, in October, it will be 13 years.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  It's such a beautiful, beautiful story.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  That's almost as good as our story.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  So one of the big brother, so what did your brother and your dad say?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  I bring him home.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  The summer after he graduates.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Who's coming to dinner?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  And my brother was a little eyebrows up, like, what, who is this person? He talks, my brother talks about how he thought, this is strange that my daughter is, you know, dating this guy. But he learned very quickly how devoted he was to me and my dad as well. You know, when, when we got married, Patrick, he comes from a very traditional family. I come from a very traditional family. So he actually made arrangements to fly down to Florida to ask my parents for my hand, for, for my hand in marriage and did so without my knowledge. I didn't know he was doing this.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  And so he tells a story about how he sat down with them in the den and said, I've been dating your daughter for six years, as you know. And I'm really interested in asking her to marry me. And my dad was like, well.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  You know, back, back when I was in the Black Power movement, you would not have been caught dead in my house. Not to mention, you know, asking.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  For my daughter's hand. My one and only.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  He said, but I see how you have treated her. I know that you love her. And my mother said, I have two questions, two questions. Do you believe in God? And do you love my daughter?

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  And he answered both of them in the affirmative and she said, you have my blessing. And he.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  What about your brother?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  My brother, my brother was on board by this stuff. My brother was on board.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  And your families have blended, you know, you write about how, how well received his family has been of you and supportive in the same way.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  They're wonderful.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  You know, just want to get that on the record too.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  They're wonderful.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  But so here you guys are, two hard drivers. You are going to be the first black Supreme Court justice and he's going to be some neurosurgeon, you know?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  General surgeon.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  General surgeon.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  General surgeon, which means the structures of the abdomen. People don't know that. All the other.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Didn't know that.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the other sort of specialties are parts of the body. And when you say I'm a general surgeon, it means the gut, essentially.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  So he does a lot of those operations.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  But he's cutting people open and doing really hard things in life, which requires focus and attention, right? So how, talk about how you two together have managed building a family with the stresses, the absences that had, had to occur. I mean, you know, probably like me and Barack, you know, Barack's running for office. He's in state senate. He's in the US senate. You know, we're building a family at a time when we're basically commuting. You know, and I've got my career and he's got his. And how do you weave those paths together?

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Can you talk about the, the good and the bad times of it?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Very, very challenging. I cover some of it, you know, in the memoir. It's, I think one thing that was helpful for us is that we met in college. We were with each other through our respective graduate schools. So we both knew that our careers and our professions were very important to us. And I think that helped me to be patient when he was on call, which was a lot. You know, going through residency, the medical training program, especially for surgery, is very long and very intense. He trained at the Mass General, which is one of the top surgical programs in the country and a very demanding one.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  And he was there when we had our first daughter. So I had to actually, I clerked for the Supreme Court. He had taken some time off to come down to DC while I was clerking. And then I took, basically went back to Boston because he had to finish his residency at the Mass General and had our first child. And I'm in a law firm and he is a resident and we have an infant. And it was very tough early on. I think we managed it in part because we tried to take turns with whose career needed the most attention at the time. So when he was a resident, I just went into a regular law firm, even though I knew I wasn't going to do law firm work long term.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. And the way you talk about law firm work, I was like, girl, I so, yeah, I'm sorry.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  You remember this.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  You remember this. I remember this, the way you described the hardship and the, the culture.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  And billable hours.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Billable hours.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  And trying to breastfeed and keep up with your billable hours. And talk more about that.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  It was so challenging. I had an infant. My husband was a surgical resident, so he was basically absent. We had to have a nanny, obviously, in order to manage childcare during this time. And I remember that because my husband's hours were so unpredictable, he could never relieve the nanny. And the stress of that, because the nanny is working on hours. She's there for eight hours max in the day. You don't want your nanny working for more than that because she's caring for your child. And so you have to really be on top of it. But that meant I was the one who at five o'clock every day had to say to whatever partner I was working with or whatever.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  I'm so sorry, but I need to go because I have to take the train to where my car is and take my car. It was like a 45 minute commute to get home. And I had to relieve the nanny by six o'clock because my husband would never do that. And the pressure on me as someone who had really prided myself in being the hardest worker, in being available to do whatever my boss wanted me to do, all of those things collided because I couldn't be there. And then we're talking about a time where there was not cell phones and the ability to take work home. This was not an internet age where you could work for, right now, I understand that you can have an infant

• 46:36Speaker 01

  and then you leave at five o'clock, but you're back online by seven. That was not the world at that time. So when you were out of the office, you were done not billing those hours. And I had to go every day. And the stress, I mean, it was just excruciating.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  How did you talk to Patrick about it? I mean, and you're also probably trying not to put stress on him.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Well, that was the hardest part because when he was home, he used to do a schedule when he was a resident that had him sleeping in the hospital every other night. So the night that he was home, he actually had to get sleep. So the question was, who was waking up in the middle of the night with the baby? He's not there at all because he's at the hospital, so it's me. And when he's there, he really has sleep. So it's me. So it was, I mean, the, the time when our infant daughter in Boston for the first two years of her life was probably the most difficult time, both in my marriage and in my professional life.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Because I was doing everything and I didn't want to make him feel guilty or put stress on him. So much so that when he got an extra year, his surgical residency was five years long. And they asked him at the end of it to stay for another year and be like a junior attending to supervise. It's a huge honor to do this. And he really wanted to do it. And I said, yes, but what we'll need to do is I'm going to take my daughter and the nanny and move down to Washington DC because I wanted to start my career at a law firm in Washington DC.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  And I said, this is going to be good for you because you don't have to feel the guilt of coming, having to rush home, having to be with us. You can do this position, which is going to be extraordinarily time intensive. Without worrying about us, we're gonna go down. So I took the nanny, paid her, hired her to live with me and the baby. So that he could have this experience without the worry. And it was good in that sense. I mean, he could just put his all into that and we were fine. But it was very stressful this time.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  And that was for a year.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  That was for a year, for about a year. Yeah, we were, we, we.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  How often did you guys see each other during that time?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  You know, he probably came home three or four times during that time. But I mean, he was doing, he was running a part of the Mass General's like trauma intake service. So I don't, I don't watch the pit, but I hear it's really good. He was like the, you know, guy running the whole thing. And the hours were insane and he wanted that experience and it made him a better surgeon. And because I knew how important to the, I, I never wanted him to feel resentful. You know, to like miss out on an opportunity because he had to give it up in this way.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  You know, we all have these periods, you know, it's, it's almost guaranteed, especially if you've got two people who have ambition and have, have dreams or hopes. There are going to be periods of really, really hard stuff.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  That's right. That's one of the reasons why I wrote about this period. Because I wanted people to see that you can go through hard things. And if you stick with it, it'll be worth it in the end. That other successful people have faced similar challenges. I, I wanted to be honest about that part of my life.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  And you never had to put your foot on the brake of your career. But you did have to let up off the gas.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  You had to set different expectations for yourself. You had to be okay with not being perfect.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. Which is not easy.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  It is not.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  For someone who has gotten to a certain level in your career. You're used to working a certain way and producing at a certain level. And at times you need to say, I'm gonna take this job or do this thing that may not be.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  And I'm not gonna do it, I'm, I'm not gonna be the best at it.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  You know, I'm not gonna be one, number one, but I'm not gonna be.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Be the last one thousand. Exactly.

• 51:00Speaker 02

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• 53:43Speaker 00

  Well, I want folks to really get an understanding of the path. The career path that is required. I mean, being a lawyer and being, I mean, I understand what clerkships are and the order of, you know, choices and acceptances you have to get in order to even be qualified to be a candidate for the Supreme Court. Can you walk our listeners through that process? Which starts with.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Cause I don't know.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Which starts with being at the top of your Harvard Law School class and being on the Harvard Law Review.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Being on something like Law Review is an important training ground if you want to be a judge, because it helps you to think about the law in a very academic way, systematic way. You're getting a lot of exposure to legal writing, which is what judges ultimately do. I then went on to clerk, that is become an assistant in chambers to judges. And I actually had the great good fortune of clerking for three different judges at the three different levels of the federal system.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  So in our federal criminal, uh, justice system, we have the trial level, the Court of Appeals level and the Supreme Court.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Talk about the levels too, because district court, how is that different from the appellate court? That's different from the Supreme Court? And I really just want to educate people.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. So the, the first level, the trial level is called the district court in the federal system. And at that level, that is when people who are, who have a dispute and they say, we're gonna file a lawsuit. You start by filing it before a single judge in the district court. So each judge sits on their own, they each have their own courtroom. And the real goal at that level is to establish the facts of a case. This is where trials happen. This is where people who are accused of crimes, you have the prosecutor filing charges and they pick a jury, all of that is happening at the trial level. So you really, as a young lawyer, working with a judge in that environment, you learn

• 56:02Speaker 01

  so much about meeting people and interacting with the real people and developing the facts in a case. The Court of Appeals level is the next level and the person who loses at the trial level has the ability to appeal. And that is basically to challenge what happened in the trial and say that there was something wrong legally with the process that led to their loss. The Court of Appeals level is three judges who are on panels and they are interacting mostly with the lawyers. Because when you have an appeal, you hire a lawyer who will take your case to these three judges. Exactly. The facts have already been established and the appellate judges are supposed to take

• 56:45Speaker 01

  those facts and really just review the legal aspects and whether the law was properly applied below. And they read the transcripts basically of the lower court proceedings. I had the great good fortune of having a lot of different jobs in this early period before I became a judge, but I did clerk for judges at all three levels. And I ended up being appointed as a judge at all three levels. So my first judicial appointment was actually made by your husband. I was appointed to the district court in Washington DC and did that trial level work

• 57:25Speaker 01

  for about seven and a half years before President Biden appointed me to the appellate court in Washington DC, where I did the three judge panel legal reviews. And then I was appointed to the Supreme Court. So it's been quite a journey.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Highly, highly qualified. Can you talk a bit about why judges are important? You know, I run into this all the time, you know? People, you know, you get your ballot, assuming you're voting and there's the long list of judges, right? At the state level, right? And you're checking them off. And a lot of people are like, what? That's a hassle, you know? I gotta go through that. And why is it important? Or is it, does it even matter? Who is a judge? Can you talk a bit about why people should be informed, aware and care? Who their judges are?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  So I will just say, and you're right, that I encountered this a fair amount, people who really don't understand the significance.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Judges are important too.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Democracy and liberty for every single person who lives in our society. And I say that because in order for us all, with all of our different backgrounds and all of our different views and feelings about how things should happen, all of the disputes that arise just from being people living together in society, you have to have a forum to resolve those disputes peacefully.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So we don't have people at each other's throats all the time or taking it, you know, upon themselves to resolve disputes. You have to agree to take this to court if it's something that you are truly at odds over, which is gonna happen when you just have a free society. So in order to agree, we all have to believe that there is a judicial system that is gonna be fair, that is gonna be neutral, that when you bring your dispute to the court, that judge doesn't have any pre-existing stake in the particular issue, that they're listening to both sides and fairly reviewing the evidence

• 59:53Speaker 01

  and coming up with a decision that is a just one. Somebody's gonna win, somebody's gonna lose, but we have to have that forum so that we can live together peacefully in our society. So it's really, I mean, it's crucial.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  So Mish made the obvious point that you're well qualified for this and you've had some experiences in the whole level, all the levels.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Has the job met your expectation?

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Oh, you know, I don't know that I had a whole lot of expectations. It was such a blur getting this to this position, going through the process of being confirmed, getting there. Because I had clerked at the Supreme Court, I think I had a good sense of what it was gonna be like. But it's so much more. I mean, it's just extraordinary. I'm so privileged to do this work, to serve the American people in this way, to be in the room, the room where it happens. It's really, I'm so grateful for it. And I think in that way, it has absolutely surpassed any expectation that I had.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Well, we're fortunate to have you.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Can you, how has life changed? We talked a little bit about our shared bubble experiences. Do you feel comfortable just talking about, what, you know, how being a life-appointed Supreme Court justice affects your day-to-day? And what are the limits? And how are your kids managing? And what are the highs and what are some of the lows?

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Well, it is, it is a big, big change. It's a big commitment. I think the thing that has been most startling in a way is the need for security in a way that you didn't have before, that I had never experienced. I was on the lower courts, but they don't have the same level of security or security needs as the justices do. And so it has meant really having to adjust my life. I can't just go out in any meaningful way as I used to. And that can be a downside, just not being able to live a normal life. I know you know what it's like to be, feel confined.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  But again, I mean, it's certainly a privilege to do the work and to have the platform.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  That goes without, without saying, you know?

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  But it's also okay to acknowledge those changes.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  And I know, I know how you feel. I mean, you never wanna come off as not grateful for service, especially people like us who were raised to be public servants.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  You also have to watch your exposure to things so that there isn't a bias.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  And what does that mean for you in terms of reading the paper and listening to the news? And how do you get your information? And what do you have to be careful about? And how are you dealing with the potential conflicts? So that you do stay, you know, above board?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  No, you really have to be focused on that. There are employees in the court who, in the legal office of the court and the public information office of the court, who are assisting us in that way. When I get invitations to do things, I always have them screened by the legal office, the, the public information office, just to make sure that there are no ethical conflicts, that this is not a fundraiser. You know, there are lots of limits on what judges can do. And I try to be very, very mindful and scrupulous with respect to that because, as you say, our obligation is to be unbiased in our approach. And so you have to then navigate all the sources

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  that could make for an appearance of partiality, which you want to avoid. So there are lots of things that I end up not accepting for that reason. News sources, I think, you know, I don't have a lot of time, unfortunately, you know, but I do, you know, the, the normal, general media sources are made available. And I think it's harder when you're talking about, there's so much social media now.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  This is a whole different world.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  It's a whole different world and not everything is reliable. And the hardest part for judges is that we really cannot participate.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  Probably saving you some brain cells.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  That we need you focused on your opinions.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Now, we actually have a listener question to answer.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  We do, we do.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  That you've been so gracious and with your time generous, thorough with your time. It's just, but we wanna, we wanna help some folks out.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Sure. One last bit of advice from our listener.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  From our listener who's Lisa from San Diego.

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  I am an entry-level professional working under a new boss who has a very specific way of communicating and executing work. I know that it's important to develop mentors in an early career position, but I have struggled to connect with her. I've noticed that even small deviations in language or approach are met with strong criticism. And I'm finding it difficult to balance staying true to my own working style while meeting her expectations. How can I adapt without feeling like I'm losing my voice or confidence at work? And how do I make sure I find people who really have my back and help me grow my career?

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  That's an excellent question. I mean, mentors are very important in terms of professional development. That's what I have seen. I wonder whether Lisa has had occasion to talk with her boss and potential mentor because it's possible that this person is not aware of the difficulty that Lisa is having. And if she were to say something like, you know, I really want to develop our relationship. I would love to have you as my mentor in this work. And I, how can I communicate in a way that will be most productive?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Because I want this to be a good working relationship. If she expresses an interest in the boss's views of this, I think that she might find a receptive audience. And if she doesn't, then she knows that this might not be the right fit for her professionally. But I would, I would give it a chance by really just being open and coming from a perspective of I really want this to work. And I'm open to feedback and wanting to know how we can improve.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I am surprised as somebody who's led and managed, you know, I think people who work with you don't realize that sometimes your boss is just not focused.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  Not because they don't care, but because the assumption is that there's the mission that, that sometimes takes precedent over, how you doing and is this working out? And that doesn't necessarily indicate lack of intent to mentor, but sometimes you, you lose track. And I think it's true, like giving your boss the benefit of the doubt and at least making an effort to communicate. And that's a scary thing.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Very scary.

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  You know, it doesn't happen a lot because it feels scary. You wanna make sure you don't overstep or misstep. Another thing that I would suggest for Lisa, if the conversation is had and it isn't as productive as she'd hoped, to think about whether there are other people who are not her direct supervisor within her work environment that can be kind of a mentor or a sounding board. I found this to be true when I was practicing at Sidley, my, my firm. I mean, I enjoyed all the partners that I worked with, but I also made it a point to meet with senior associates. I found that some of those partners,

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  particularly the women, were the people that I could talk to.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  You know, and oftentimes I would go to them in confidence, you know, after you understood that they could, that they could hold your confidence and that you would establish that relationships, that relationship, I found them to be better mentors.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:56Speaker 00

  Right? Because they could also commiserate. You know, they could give me a perspective on where that partner was. Sometimes they knew what was going on. And I got some of my best advice in the law firm from other partners who I wasn't working with.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Who you weren't working with, but went to.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  No, that's fantastic.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And especially you can find those people as well, even if they, if they're doing the kind of work that you're interested in, sometimes that could develop into

• 1:09:25Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  a, a working relationship. But at least going to them and asking for advice or for lunch, the opportunity to talk informally and being, being humble in a way always helps. You know, when you go to anybody who is more senior than you.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  That's great advice. I don't have too much to add. I've always felt that. Being a direct boss doesn't necessarily make you a good mentor.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  So, and so you hit on my point is find a mentor who's not your direct supervisor without going over that person's head, right?

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  And also, not everybody's gonna be a great boss.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Or a great mentor.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  Or a great mentor. Not every boss will be a great mentor, as you said. And sometimes there's learning in that. You know, you just have to develop the skin to know the difference. It's like, sometimes you're gonna have a difficult situation and it's difficult and it's not you. So how do you make sure you get through that hole, right? And if you don't think you can get through it whole, then the question becomes maybe it's time to move on, but I always caution people, especially in this economy, keep your job. Until you, you know, don't walk out mad.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, the other thing I always say is, don't burn bridges.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  When you walk out, assuming you have something else lined up, it is super important to have the people you leave behind have a good sense of you and not feel that you have slighted them in any way, because you never know when you're gonna have to cross that bridge again.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And you want them to be out there saying good things about you, even though you don't work there anymore.

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

  That's right. Well, hopefully that helps Lisa. Justice Jackson, you know, you have given us a lot of time. We really appreciate it. Thank you for coming to IMO.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Thanks for being here.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Thank you for giving me this chance. It's been delightful.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Like I said, delightful.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  And.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  The lovely one.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  The young, the young adults' version is out there in the world, but you know, you still gotta read the non-young adults' version. It's a beautiful story. It really is.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  And thank you for sharing with us.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:12:22Speaker 04

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.