How to Accelerate Learning & Improve Education | Joe Liemandt

My guest is Joe Liemandt, technology entrepreneur and principal of Alpha School, a K-12 model that uses AI and individualized learning to help students master academics in just two hours a day, freeing the rest of their time to build businesses, conduct experiments, engage with their communities, and develop practical life skills. We discuss Alpha’s promising results, tools parents and educators can use today, and Joe’s vision for how AI could transform education and human potential. Show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/296-joe-liemandt Pre-order Protocols: https://protocolsbook.com Huberman Lab live events: https://www.hubermanlab.com/events Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman David: https://davidprotein.com/huberman Lingo: https://hellolingo.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Joe Liemandt (00:03:16) History of Traditional Classroom Model; Education Milestones (00:08:08) Sponsors: David & Lingo (00:10:25) Alpha School, High Standards & Support (00:22:33) Effective Support, Academics vs Athletics; Homeschooling (00:30:03) AI, Individualized Learning & Mastery (00:34:31) Teacher Education, Standardized Tests, Role of School (00:40:52) Sponsors: AG1 & Helix Sleep (00:43:42) AI, Scaffolding Learning, Mastery; Working Memory & Fluency (00:52:41) Working Memory, Focus; Gifted Kids (01:00:30) Basics Mastery, Grade Level Catch-Up, Individualized AI Lessons & Pace (01:06:57) Sponsor: LMNT (01:08:17) Shame, Motivation, Growth Rate; Overcoming Mental Blocks & Paying Kids (01:20:55) Suffering & Motivation, Kids Goals, Sports; Doing Hard Things (01:31:21) Founders High School, Life Skills; Kids' Goals (01:42:44) Reimagining Classroom Education (01:47:21) Importance of Building & Creating, AI & Humanity (01:58:04) Science & Redesigning Experiments, Kids' Interest-Led Projects (02:05:26) Huberman Lab Live Events (02:06:14) Learning Predictors, Gender, Income; Redesigning the School System (02:18:32) Success; Sports Academy, Alpha School Expansion (02:28:36) Acknowledgements (02:31:07) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We don't do the basics. We need to nail the basics, just like in sports. My famous example I always use is if you lose the ball 20% of the time going down the court, the coach is not saying, "Let's work on the dunks and the alley oops," or even the layups. They're like ball handling. We're going to get ball handling. 20% isn't acceptable. 15% isn't acceptable. You can't be 85, 80% accurate. In America, we're like, "You're getting a B, man. Move on. We're moving on to dunks. You just finished 4th grade at 80%. Let's get you into that 5th grade stuff." And the answer is no. No, because then all those problems compound.

• 0:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

• 0:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Joe Limont, the principal of Alpha School, which is a novel approach to education that strives to ensure that every child reaches the frontier of their knowledge and skill potential. Kids in Alpha School spend just two hours a day, two hours a day, learning what they need to in order to ensure no gaps in their cognitive knowledge. Then they spend the rest of their day learning to and actually starting their own businesses, learning financial skills, as well as communication and interpersonal skills. The goal of Alpha School is to tailor learning to the unique needs of the child. But unlike so many other non-traditional forms of learning in schools, they don't let the child pick what is easiest for them,

• 1:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  nor force all kids to learn at the same rate across all subjects. So it's a truly unique approach. The data on Alpha School kids are astounding. K through 12 students from Alpha School test in the top 1% of students in the US, and their average SAT scores graduating from high school is a nearly perfect 1530. In addition, while still in school, many of the Alpha students start their own businesses that are highly successful, meaning they generate hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. During today's conversation, you're not just going to hear about how Alpha students do all this incredible stuff. It's really about how the ways in which they learn will allow you, adult or young, to learn better, and why filling in gaps in our basic knowledge that we all have at every age

• 2:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  is both possible and can be done quickly with the correct lesson plans and understanding of neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to rewire itself. So some of today's discussion focuses on that as well. You'll also learn that no, Alpha School is not just for wealthy kids. They are changing education for students of all backgrounds and income levels. And Joe Limont and his colleagues are striving to teach educators the real data on how kids and adults learn best in ways that serve the student both in and after they leave school. I have to say, as a university professor who lives in the land of education, our conversation today completely changed how I think about learning in and out of the classroom, and it also provides tools that I now use to learn more effectively. And I'm confident that it will do the same for you. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

• 3:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Joe Limont. Joe Limont, welcome.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Thank you very much. Great to be here.

• 3:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Tell us about learning and education 100 years ago, because that sounds like a long time ago, but it wasn't that long ago. And then we'll use that as a contrast point to where you're trying to take learning and education and schooling for young people now.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  So 100 years ago, we were trying to say, "How are we going to educate everybody?" Universal access to education 200 years ago was not a thing. Every person on the planet did not have access to education. 100-plus years ago, people said, "Let's start educating everybody." And we're talking K through 12. So they started the industrialized model. Started over in Prussia, right, and then was imported. And it was very controversial, actually. If you look back of, you have a rural society, and you're saying, "Get off the farms and get into schools." And the best way to educate people back then was, "Let's put them in a room. Let's teach them how to read and write. Let's have a teacher in front of the classroom."

• 4:18Speaker 00

  And that became the model. And that today is actually, one of the things that's the most universal in the world is the education model. You can go to the richest school district down the street here, or the richest private school, and there's a teacher in front of a classroom of kids. And you can go to the poorest school district in India, and the building's not as nice, but there's a teacher in front of a classroom. We have universal access. What we are trying to do is bring universal learning. So there's a vast disparity in how much kids learn during that 12 years, that while they may have access to it, learning is very different. And so what we think is, because of new things that have become available,

• 5:00Speaker 00

  and things like AI and technology, for the first time in 50 and 100 years, you can revisit and change education. How we educate kids is going to be radically different in five years and 10 years than the last 50 and 100 years. And that's what we're out doing, building that model, building the set of schools around it, and then figuring out how we scale it and get it out to a billion kids so that everybody can have access to it.

• 5:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  It seems to me that we think in terms of milestones. I mean, even before a child is born, if they can have an ultrasound, the parents are looking, are they meeting milestones? And then we think of biological milestones and cognitive milestones. How much of the current schooling system is based on milestones that make really good sense? Like, by the time you finish a certain grade, you're supposed to be able to read, you're supposed to be able to write. What we decide is a critical milestone can easily change. But I'm guessing there are still some milestones that are cemented in that don't make any sense any longer.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. There's a whole set of milestones that people have, especially the ones parents understand and grandparents is, whatever you went through are the milestones that you understand. Kids should read by 3rd grade. It used to be you memorized your multiplication tables by 3rd grade. You'd learn cursive before that. And the standard, the books, right? You would read books. There was a book list in high school, and you would read it, and you'd understand the content that was in that book. And what has happened, and I think where a lot of the unhappiness in education is, is those standards have gone down. They've pulled those standards away around the academics for a lot of different reasons. And so when you think about development, there's behavioral standards. How should I behave? How much should I know?

• 6:47Speaker 00

  And then what are the non-academic skills? Whether it's vocational or life skills that you need to have, financial literacy, that have changed from what were true 30 years ago, 50 years ago, to where they are today? And there's generally a view that there's broad unhappiness, that whether it's the standard or the student's achievement of that standard, and are they actually even hitting the standards? That's causing this big demand for, "We need to change our education system." And that's sort of half of it. The other half is people are looking at things like AI and saying, "The world is really different. The world that's coming is really different."

• 7:29Speaker 00

  And it does put in parents' heads, "The educational system I went through isn't going to get my kids ready for the future one." We're building schools everywhere and doing education, so I talk to lots of parents. When I have like a 12th grade parent talking to me, they're at the finish line. They're just trying to get them out. And so they're just like, "Whatever. Just, I'm done." But when you talk to the kindergarten parents, they are forecasting forward 12 years. And they sit there and say, "There's no way the current system is going to get my kid ready." They have the high demands to say, "We need to do something different."

• 8:09Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 8:53Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 9:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  And over time, that can even progress to prediabetes. Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have prediabetes. Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do. Often, there aren't clear symptoms of prediabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it. But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not. Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day. I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health. If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.

• 10:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.

• 10:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  I hear some very polarized views out there. One, that you can get all the education you need off YouTube. I don't believe that's true. I think how one forages through technology, especially publicly available technology, is critical, right? Because you can ruin your life, or you can potentially build some of your life out by watching YouTube videos, but that's a wide divergence. And so I don't believe that statement. The other thing that I'd like to just set as a context for our discussion is, I think there are very divergent views on the notion of doing what you love versus doing things that are painful to learn. So in terms of milestones and standards, the idea is, when I was growing up, was that you have to have at least a certain level of aptitude in something if you want to progress forward.

• 11:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you might be much more musical than you are, whatever, much more oriented towards the engineering, science, and math fields, or towards something else, and that's okay. But everyone had to be above the bar in order to move forward. I think nowadays, because of this battle, basically, between whether we're coddling kids too much, or whether we're pushing them too much, I feel like the whole landscape is a bit of a mess. So what is Alpha School's philosophy with respect to what kids like to do versus what they absolutely should do, independent of whether or not they like it? And I came from the latter category. You have to learn stuff, because you have to learn it. And then you find the things you love, and then you eventually try and create a life.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Right. These are great. So both of them, we have strong views on all of these. The first one of, everything's available on YouTube, or you can get MIT online.

• 12:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Khan Academy.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Why doesn't everybody have an MIT degree? Open course where it's available. Libraries have been here forever. Every textbook, you can just go to a library and read. School is much more than just that. And I believe, and just to be really clear, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 90% of parents are going to drop their kids off at a building. And in that building are going to be other kids and adults. That the way school, that part of school, school's socialization, right? It's much more than, I sat and watched a YouTube video. It's motivation. The material's available, the motivation isn't, right? Or the structure isn't. And schools provide a lot of that. And so that's when we look at it, we believe motivation is 90% of learning these days.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Now, our view back to the day, if we do our job right, the six or seven hours your kids in that building, it's going to be radically different and 10 times better than what we went through. Then the second part around standards and, love school, do what you love, wait, it's a grind. So this is a personal story for me. So I didn't start Alpha. I'm the principal, going in my fifth year. It was started by Brian and Mackenzie 12 years ago. And parents want to educate their kids the way they were, even if they didn't like it that much. I went to Catholic school. I have two daughters, they were in Catholic school. Mackenzie starts the school, and she's like, you gotta come to my new school. And I looked at it, and I'm like, this is a totally weird, janky school. Like, no way.

• 13:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  What did you see that led you to?

• 13:34Speaker 00

  There's no teacher in front of a classroom. I'm like, this is totally crazy, right? And, oh, they're going to learn on some apps? The girls reciting their vocabulary words while they were doing handstands. And I'm like, you know, I grew up a standard, standard school system. It was weird. And it took her two years, actually, of trying to convince me. I actually saw, you know, one of mine struggling in standard school. And then what happened was, St. Gabriel got out at the end of May, and Alpha was still in session, and my kids were going to go to summer camp. And Mackenzie convinced my daughter, she's like, well, why don't you come to Alpha for a week before you go to summer camp? You know, my daughters are there, it'll be really fun. I'm like, you want to go to school in the middle of summer? Sure. So they went for a week. And they came back at the end of the week, and they're like, Dad, we don't want to go to summer camp.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  We want to go back to Alpha. And I thought that was the craziest thing I'd ever heard of the world, that somebody wanted to go to school instead of camp. That was an indicator to me, where I'm like, they have something here. And the kids are in second, fourth grade, I'm like, let's try it out. And that was, you know, 10 years ago, and it really worked out for us, we can get to that later. But when I put my daughters in, I talked to Brian, and I was like, what do I not understand as a parent? He said, there's two things. First, your kids must love school. And I was like, oh, that's not true at all. It's like spinach. You just grind it, right? That's what it's like. It's spinach, you grind it. I mean, sometimes it's okay, but you just, you grind your way through it. He's like, nope, and someday you'll figure this out, and you'll see with your daughters

• 15:03Speaker 00

  that kids must love school. I was like, anything else? He's like, yes. Your kids have so much more potential than you expect, than what you think. And I was like, oh, that's not true. I'm like, I'm sort of like a tiger dad. Like, I think my kids are going to do a ton of stuff. And, you know, I have really high expectations. And he's like, they're going to blow you away. And that's sort of the dichotomy, I think, around Alpha, that really confuses people, is, kids love school. Like, we make three commitments to the kids, and the first one is, you will love school. And 90-some percent of our students, we survey them, right? Say, I love school. We actually, in the last year or so, have started asking a follow-up question, which is, would you rather go to school or go on vacation?

• 15:45Speaker 00

  And depending on the vacation, the session, and how good our workshops were, between 40 and 60% of kids said, I'd rather go to school than vacation.

• 15:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  As a standard, like, loving school. And when you engage kids, and you think, I'm going to put them in this system for 12 years, as a parent, you want them to love it. And so there's that part. But now, let's talk about doing hard things. Kids want to do hard things. Kids have to do hard things, which is, you know, when I'm talking to parents who are worried, because we have such a high achievement, we're the number one academic school in the country. Every grade level is top 1% in every subject, right? My freshman honors SAT score, you know, freshmen are like at 1400, which is better than almost every senior class in the country.

• 16:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  Your freshmen are at 1400 on the SAT?

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Honors class. My honors track in freshman is 1400 SAT. And so we have great academics, and parents are like, wait, is this like this high stress, high standard? And we explain to them, which is, the key to your child's happiness is high standards. And I can't run a school that they love more than vacation if I have low standards. And it is that paradox, right? That tension, that is the magic of Alpha School, and it's the magic that parents need to understand, because that's what engages them, is they want to do things. Kids think they're awesome, and they are awesome, but they need to be put in an environment where they get to go do hard things with their friends.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  And with that, they do the grind. They do hard things. In America, we have a very different view. We have sort of, how you treat academics and how you treat sports. And if we took the sports ethos and the athletic ethos in America, and we applied it to academics, we would fix every academic problem in this country. For example, Westlake High School football team in Austin, where I am, going to win the state championship, right? They're great. Every parent's like, I want my kid to be on that team, because it's going to be the hardest thing they've ever done, because they're going to have to work harder, it's going to be crazy, but it's going to be the most fun thing they ever do, and they're going to remember it the rest of their life. And we believe that about sports. You can make education the same way, and that's what we're building to do that.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  So we believe on both, which is, high standards, right? Is what leads to loving school and happiness. I know you had Dr. Jaeger on. So Dr. Jaeger was actually, you know, his book, 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Kids, is all about high standards and high support. And it is that combination that you want from a school. And that's what we built. Like, he created our guide training, like, all the adults in our buildings follow that. High standards, high support, his mentor mindset program. And most parents are one of two things. They're either high standards, low support. I'm just going to throw my kid in and expect him to do great. And that's not good.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Or they're low standards, high support, I never want my kid to have stress. That's bad too. And the real answer is, you do both. And you, schools should do this. Schools should have high standards and high support. And back to my athletic analogies, great coaches do that. There's thousands of movies in America of, our sports team is in last place, and a coach comes in, and he's like, I know we're in last place, but we're going to win the state championship next year. The whole movie is about how he turns around the team by having high standards, and teamwork, and hard work, and they do it, and then they win. Where are those on academics? I think there's three. We know that's how you develop kids.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Child development experts will sit and explain, the key to developing a child is that they struggle and fail on their road to success, supported by a caring adult. And you just want to run that loop. You talk to most parents, they're like, my kid learns the valuable life skills in after-school sports. Parents are like, yes, they're going to struggle. They're going to fail, they're going to lose the game, whatever's going to happen, but it's going to be on the road to success. And that coach, I picked the coach because I know he cares about my kid achieving it, and he's going to be there to support him. And that's what you should just do in school for the other seven hours, is have those same loops. I will add one thing that happens, especially when you start with kindergarten, kids struggle and fail.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Sometimes cry on their road to success, supported by a caring adult. And it's really hard for parents as soon as the kid cries, obviously. And that's struggle part. And that's the linchpin for parents being like, I don't want the struggle. Cause you hear this, you're like, well, why don't you just, okay, that sounds all logical. Why don't you do it? And you're like, well, when you're a parent, your kid's crying, you want to go protect them. You want to make sure they're safe. And that's why you have to make sure they're in an environment where you think they're safe, where the adult in charge is making sure they're, it's not low standards and they're leaving, hanging out. At Alpha, we have great workshops where 85% of Alpha parents in the last year said, I saw my kid do something that I literally thought was impossible for their age.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Back to high standards. And one of them is our kindergarteners climb a 40 foot rock wall. You know, at our San Francisco campus, they rode their bikes, five miles, learned how to ride a bike, rode it five miles across the Golden Gate Bridge without stopping. And then we have a, we call them Alpha tests for these life skills. 10 weeks into school, there's the kindergarteners and they're climbing up. And you know, sometimes they do get halfway and they are stuck and they sit there and they're worried. And the parents want to go rescue them. And we always tell them, just watch, cause this is what the school's about. And their guide is down at the bottom of the wall and coaching them up. And then eventually, and maybe they have to wait there and maybe they even whimper a little,

• 21:39Speaker 00

  you know, the, the, while they're struggling, they then, I can do it. And they climb to the end, supported by their Alpha guide at the bottom. And when they come down after achieving it, right? They ring the bell, they come down. I mean, that kid is beaming and their parents are beaming. And that's why we have such like fanatical love of school and why we have such evangelism and what everybody talks about Alpha is because the parents go through that experience and they see their kids thrive and they see them thrive via these things that are hard. And that's the environment we need to build for kids, because that is how you develop kids. When you think of old societies, right? Every society had rites of passage. They were hard.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  And it's what is the struggle and fail on your road to success, supported by an adult? That's what the educational system needs to be and should be. And we do it a lot in sports and not a lot on, on education.

• 22:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  What you said is so rich with ideas. Let me organize them the following way. I've heard you say before, and you sort of touched on a bit a moment ago, that most of the way that we teach kids how to navigate life in the United States is in sports, not in academics. And I completely agree. And when I first heard you say that in a prior conversation with Patrick O'Shaughnessy, I thought, yes, absolutely. And the contrast with academics is, is really striking because I think there's this idea that kids are, you know, by the time they're in high school, they're going to be good at certain things and other things, not so much. And, and the words, do the best you can, sounds like support, sounds like high standards,

• 23:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  but it kind of avoids both. So maybe we could just drill a little more specifically into what support really looks like at the level of parenting and maybe peers as well. So I can imagine high standards could, let's take a, like a zero to 10 scale arbitrary units and say zero is like, you'll never be anything. Everyone agrees that it's not a good model. 10 would be you can do and become anything you want. We believe this in America and there are examples to support the 10 model. It's not totally true, right? It's not totally true. I went to a very competitive public high school and there were some phenoms in my class at sports, a pair of twins, Joe and John Cannon, people can look them up.

• 24:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  One became a goalie for the San Jose Quakes. The other one had a hundred mile plus fastball in high school. I forget who he played for, maybe it was the Mariners or whoever. But anyway, he was a, he was a pro pitcher. Their younger brother, Colt Cannon, picked up a skateboard. Eight months later, he had a pro model or he was on a team, then he had a pro model. Maybe it wasn't eight months to that, but there's something going on in that family. Okay. And they were good at academics.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  But none of them became, dare I say professors at Stanford, but they probably could have, but we don't know. So we have this model that like in sports, some genetics plays a role.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Family lines play a role. We're kind of okay with that conversation now.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you can become anything. That's, that's the highest standard. Somewhere in between is probably what you'll tell me is most effective because we have to put reality into the picture sometimes.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  But the support thing is the one that's completely opaque to me. Because we know what the zeros are, right? Figure it out on your own. Make yourself breakfast, get yourself to school. That's not support, right? And then the other one is, I'm going to try and get in there and do everything for you. I'm going to climb the rock for you. I'm going to do your homework for you. And we know that's not good. We haven't really defined clearly what real, truly useful support is.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  And standardized that. So maybe you could enrich our thinking about what it might look like or what you think it looks like.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  Great. And I, I think that's a great framework. Let's, let's do the athletic side as, and then we'll, we'll throw it over. Because that's one of the things that's changed. How we provide support for actually the training, i.e. educating, the instruction is what's dramatically changed, which lets us get athletic level in academics. So in athletics, right? We do know, we know there are physical constraints. You have your story. My, my daughter in middle school was like, I'm going to be the world's best volleyball player. I'm going to start for Stanford and be there. And it motivated her, it drove her. Every afternoon she's practicing. When she became a freshman in high school, she's like, I'm not tall enough. I'm just physically not tall enough. I can't play my position.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Four years from now, there's no way Stanford's going to let me in on that dimension. And so while she had gotten very good, sort of the limit of her frontier. And so we believe there are, there are, you know, physical limitations that map your frontier. But in athletics, we actually know how to get you to the frontier. That's the delta. And that's why we do so much via athletics in America, because we have a training system that gets kids there. We don't say, hey, do your best. I hope you become a good basketball player or golfer. You don't watch YouTube videos to be like, oh, I guess I'm the world's best golfer now. You have coaches and we have training that is going to get you there. And we know how to deliver it, right?

• 26:50Speaker 00

  We know how to instruct it, right? You wouldn't have your kid go on a sports team where they're like, yeah, we, we do inquiry training here where we don't teach you, we just let you productively struggle and figure it out yourself, which is something we do a lot in schools. That's not an effective way to teach somebody, right? A sport. You're like, show me how to block. Give me the step by step. Give me the instruction you need so that I can do this better. So I play this position perfectly. Nick Saban is like, do what I say. Play your position. On academics, the difference was we have a teacher in front of a classroom and the teacher in front of the classroom has to just give the median instruction to everybody.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Imagine all the different players on your football team are all getting exactly the same instruction. You're like, well, the quarterback needs something different than the wide receiver. But the teacher just sits there and has to give everybody 25, 30, however many it is, the exact same instruction. And that's what's different now. If you look at, at why do we have access to education, but not universal learning? We have universal access, but not universal learning. It's because kids need individualized instruction.

• 28:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right down to the true individual, because at least in my high school, we had honors track for certain things. So it was tiered a little bit that if people were really, really proficient at something, you'd, you'd get into honors, English or honors math. And you would just kind of be among kids that were better performing. So the, you know, the mean shifted.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. So individualized tutoring, think back Plato and Socrates, Aristotle, Alexander the Great. Individualized tutoring is the best model. A one-on-one model is the best model. A mentorship model, an apprentice mentor, that is the best model. It's not cost effective, which is why a hundred years ago, when you like have to get it to everybody, you're like, well, I can't give everybody an individualized one. And so 30 to one was like what societies could afford. The number one thing parents measure schools on is class size and smaller is better. Because you're trying to get to one. And so 20, 20 to one is better than 30 to one, 10 to one's better than 20 to one, five to one's better than 10, and one to one's the best.

• 28:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  In terms of homeschooling, because I know there's a lot of interest in that now, but not everyone can afford it.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  What do the data say about the outcomes for homeschooling? Do those kids do well? And on, I guess on what standards?

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Homeschooling is totally bimodal, which is, are they homeschooling them for high standards or not? And there's a lot of homeschoolers who are like, I don't like standardized tests. I don't like the standardized curriculum. I reject that whole system. And so those people do very poorly on anything like that. The level of academics that those students know is very low because the parents have basically abandoned that and said, I care all about the life skills. For parents who really care about academics, those kids crush it. You have ex-teachers homeschooling their kids in a one-on-one environment and they can do it dramatically better. Now, there's still value even homeschooling, socialization. And because we have these high standards and the life skills at our schools, we actually have a bunch of homeschoolers who come who say, wow, this is the schooling system I was

• 29:52Speaker 00

  looking for, because I, I get both the high standards on the academic side, but then all the afternoons of these life skills that I thought I'd only get via homeschool. You want to get to one-on-one and that's the magic. And so let's, let's go on this, because we, we haven't talked about like the academic side. And what is the breakthrough that allows us to change education from 50 and 100 years ago? So learning science, there's a whole field of learning science, right? You can cognitive load theory, cognitive science. There's a famous paper from the eighties, Bloom's two sigma program where he's, he's like, if you give an individual tutor to mastery level, kids can learn at two sigma, right? Two sigma, it is top 2%. We could get everybody.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  So when you talk about the frontier, he's basically claiming you can get everybody to the top 2% performance today.

• 30:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Assuming high levels of motivation.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Correct. Mastery is actually the part everybody forgets about on that. If you have a tutor that's not mastery based, you won't get to top 2%. One sigma came from the tutor, one sigma comes from mastery, which once again, we'll talk about, we all accept mastery in, in athletics, but we reject it, explicitly reject it in education. And you actually need both. You need individualized instruction at a mastery level to get that performance. And now with AI tutors, at cost effectively, you can give every kid perfectly tailored lessons at their level for them at a mastery level. And that is the magic that then allows kids to learn 10 times faster. In our schools, when we talk about we're the best academic foreign school, we're top

• 31:27Speaker 00

  1%, we do it in two hours a day. Our average student does not sit in class for six and do homework. They sit at an AI app.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  And they spend two hours a day, the average kid spent one hundred and twenty-one minutes last year in the apps and learned more than two X. They what they would have in sitting in class for six and doing homework. So when you just look at those standards, it's, you know, depending on the class and stuff, between five and ten X, normal speed, because you have six hours a day in homework versus two, and you're performing at a level that's exceeding them, the how much the average student learns by two X.

• 32:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Could you enrich the picture in our minds a bit of of this kid for one hundred and twenty-one minutes? Just the the top contour of what sorts of things they're doing? Is it a is a human face that's teaching them or is it text prompts? What does it look like?

• 32:21Speaker 00

  So the first, just to be really clear on this, when people think AI, chatbots, it's not chatbots. If you take a chatbot and put it into a standard school, ninety percent of the kids use it to cheat. Doesn't matter what grade level you're at. I can't remember which Ivy League professor gave a final that he made in person, right? He made an in-person final and literally everybody felt like two people failed the exam. They're just chat GPTing their papers up. They're not reading books. They're getting chat GPT summaries of them. And there's a whole push to ban them and things like this. And, you know, while we're at AI school, used incorrectly, just like any technology, they can be bad. Here's how you want to think about it is what you know is the basis of what you can learn.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  And so being able to have a foundation and then building on that foundation is critical. And so if I am in material that's too hard, and it's just too hard for me, you can give it to me all day long and I'm not going to learn it. Back in my world or your world, if you gave me an MCAT, I don't know the words on the page. You can tell me to have grit or growth mindset, or you can tell me whatever you want. I'm not going to pass that test. And you need to roll me back to freshman bio and say, that's where you are, and then build me up from there to be able to do that. And that's the problem in our current education system today is we are taking eighth graders and we are delivering them eighth grade content because that's what an eighth grade teacher

• 33:47Speaker 00

  does by law. They need to stand up and deliver the eighth grade content. You know, if you look at the stats, we have people who need to be in seventh grade in that classroom, sixth grade, fifth grade. Because of COVID, you even have some who need to be in fourth and third grade because of all that learning loss that happened, they never learned it, right? We have kids who didn't learn how to read in third and fourth grade.

• 34:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  And so now we're wondering why all the the curves are going down. It's like, well, because they're in eighth grade and they've been told eighth grade content and no one ever taught them how to read. Or other things, when you talk about lower standards, they took away memorizing multiplication tables and science of reading, teaching phonics, taking, they took away some of the basics that as you get into higher level grades, as a kid, it just kills you.

• 34:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  What was the rationale behind doing that?

• 34:33Speaker 00

  That it gets into a lot of a lot of debate around why that happened. I don't think there's a clear answer. I believe at the end of it, they didn't realize how important it was. Like, the science of learning, if you talk to your average, you know, teacher, and you look at what's it taught in schools of education, cognitive load theory, right, and cognitive science and how all this works is not a main part of what the curriculum is. And so these teachers don't know, like, you know, we just had our staff days before school starts. So I have hundreds of teachers. These are the best teachers in the world, right? We're the employer of choice for for teachers around the country. And I was like, how many of you guys like learn direct instruction, which is one of these concepts? You know, five percent raised their hand. There's this project follow-through, a big project in the seventies that was like the

• 35:18Speaker 00

  largest educational study ever about effective ways to teach kids. I was like, how many of you guys like read project follow-through, like when you're getting your masters and like, none? And so there was, uh, she was, she was a big teacher in Houston School District and she came in, uh, she's an Alpha Guide now. And she, I saw a Twitter post after the staff day. She's like, I learned more in listening to Joe's six-hour presentation, which I have the world's best learning science team who, you know, helps educate me as well. I learned more in six hours of listening to Joe about how kids learn than I did getting my masters or even my PhD. And just that curriculum, we don't have that knowledge and we need to, we need to fix that. It's not there.

• 36:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is there not a textbook for for teachers? I mean, like, if somebody wants to become a neuroscientist or even just get a neuroscience degree, they read the book Principles of Neurobiology by Leach and Low or Principles of Neuroscience, which used to be by Candace Jusslin-Schwarz, I think, or someone else on there. But like, everyone gets those books. You learn electrophysiology from Bertle Hill, you get the biochemistry book from Stryer. Like, these are the books used everywhere. So that doesn't matter if you're in a, you know, a state university and wherever, or you're at Stanford, pretty much everyone is educated at the front end from the same textbooks.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 36:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  So you can go to a big international meeting and like, everyone understands more or less the action potential.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Education is not that. So our educational system is not fact-based, which seems crazy, but uh, there's, there's a dean of a school of education for whatever best schools in the country, who, when was talking about the state, the status of facts in education, put up a picture of Galileo's trial where he's like, this is a religious war. This isn't a fact-based trial about these things. There's a lot of evidence behind it. Like, take the UC system. There's a huge debate on whether the UC schools should use standardized tests or not? And do standardized tests help? And are they good things?

• 37:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  To get in or to progress through?

• 37:24Speaker 00

  To get in, like, should you, well, there's whole things of should kids have a standardized test to get out of high school? To graduate high school, should you be able to pass a test or not? And that's a debate. That's not like a fact. Now, when you're letting someone into your university, there's a view of should we require standardized tests? Two thousand professors, I think, I don't know exactly what it was, but two thousand professors are like, yeah, we should use these. But the Board of Regents voted, yeah, no, we're not going to take them. Whatever decisions are being made around this stuff is not a fact-based decision. It's an opinion. It's, I care about different goals. I'm trying to optimize on something besides academics. The goal of a school is not academics.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  When you look in education, it's a really complicated thing, right? What is the purpose of a school? What is developing a child? Does academics matter? So when you think of these basic things like, well, the kid was struggling on his multiplication tables and I was worried about his mental health, so I just told him, don't worry about it. You know, and you're like, well, that's really going to hurt him to learn algebra. He's not going to do well at algebra. It's like the homeschoolers, like, I don't care about academics, or there's parents at schools. And one of the things I've learned in education, especially in being a principal of the school, is, first of all, I have massive empathy for everybody running these schools. So, you know, I was watching in Austin, we're like closing a bunch of schools, right? A lot of public schools are closing and and it's being closed because it's not hitting academic standards. Five years in a row, it's failed.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  It just literally is not teaching these kids. These are eighth graders who can't read at the third grade level. And so the state and the school districts, like, we need to close school and put the kids in a school that's, you know, teaches them. And there's a mom who's just furious, right? And she's at the meeting and she's like, I don't care about that. What I care about is my older daughter in seventh grade had teacher ABC, right? Had this great teacher who changed her life. And I want my younger child to have that same teacher. And if it means they're not good at math, whatever. And the rules of the government, right? The government school system is, we are funding this to educate them on academics.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  Parents' demands are very different if you're the head of the, you know, school, your parents are saying, well, I don't, I don't care about that. Now, I believe you can do better and do it all and and those kind of things, but fundamentally, why is the Regents at UC saying, yeah, I don't know, we're not gonna, we're not gonna take standardized tests? Two thousand professors say it. There's also a bunch of professors who say, don't do it. And you get into all these debates on what the role of school is, and then that's in the air. And then the, even the learning science, inquiry, learning versus direct instructions, a huge, huge religious war around education on which is better. And so those kind of things are why it's not obvious. It's also part of being new into the space as coming in.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Part of my magic is, and part of why Alpha is getting all this, you know, hype and talk is, we're teaching kids five to 10 times faster. There is a set of learning science that hasn't.

• 40:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  The results are there.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  The results are there. And there's a set of learning science that we're proving that hasn't been able to be implemented before, that people are like, wow, if that's really true. And so why were all these great learning scientists are coming and working with us is they're looking at this data and they're like, holy cow, this data is breakthrough level that we couldn't do before.

• 40:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 41:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now. That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was. I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula. And it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula. For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code BACKTOROUTINE. So that's with a numeral two, back, numeral two, routine. Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts

• 42:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers. And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Maybe you know, maybe you don't. Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort. You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

• 43:05Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 43:43Speaker 00

  When you think about science and the development of sciences, chemistry, biology, physics, they had times, which I'd call like education, where there's debates and it's, you know, it's Galileo's trial, right? It's unsure. Their doctors are bloodletting, you know, and leeching people. This is really a good idea.

• 44:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Druffening.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Right. You're just like, oh, this is really good, right? No, like, that's the best guy, and he's saying to do it. The same way you're like...

• 44:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's a little bit of that going on now, still.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  It's unsettled. Now, in each of those, there was the invention of an instrument and a technology or an instrument that radically changed and inflected those sciences. So the microscope, right? The light microscope, the telescope, chemistry, the analytical balance. You didn't blow yourself up. Those inflected those sciences. And now, for the first time with education, AI allows us to get, it allows that finer measurements. What those allowed was finer-grained measurements, right? The microscope, it let me see cells, right? I'm like, oh, I'm starting to understand this of how this works. AI, because it's on a one-to-one basis,

• 44:53Speaker 00

  is giving us a data loop that nobody in learning science, no one in education, has ever had. And we have it. It's a closed loop. And that magical data loop is what's allowing us to get the five to 10 times improvements in education because it's our microscope, it's our telescope. Now, it's not a chatbot, that's not getting you that. But if you generate a personalized lesson for every kid... Let's step back and say, what's a teacher in front of the classroom? The problem with teacher in front of the classroom is it's so dirty, right? Your data, your effect size is driven by random classroom elements, not the learning science. So if I come up with a learning science idea and I give it to a teacher in front of the classroom, first of all, do they even teach it the way, right?

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Is the instruction done the right way? It's going to 30 people. Pre-reck matters. If I don't know algebra, you don't give me a chemistry lesson. And do the students have the prerequisites needed? Second, are the students motivated? Are they spinning in their chair, not even paying attention? The effect size is dominated by all of that, not actually the learning science concept. And in our world, right? Where we have kids super engaged for two hours in the app, I know when I give a lesson, I can measure their engagement. I can see if that lesson was good because I know how they did on the questions right afterward. I can then test them later because I'm getting spaced repetition. I'm getting recall later. I can say whether that really was transferred to long-term memory.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  And I can say, wow, that really works. So there's different theories of learning science. You have, there's concepts of direct instruction. Like, should you have the kids struggle? Or should you just teach them directly?

• 46:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  How can you teach them directly without struggle? I mean, my understanding of neuroplasticity, which is an area I come from, but not specifically in the context of education, is that if a brain or a body can execute a particular thing, a movement or a cognitive process, a math problem, there is no reason for it to change. That the error signal is what actually drives the opportunity for change. And so without errors, there's no struggle. And therefore, without struggle, there's no learning. So I don't see a world where you can teach without a kid or an adult feeling some degree of like mild agitation. They might learn to think of that as excitement and curiosity. But there's got to be some level of arousal, like, I have to think, right? You know, it's got to be broad...

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Engagement, yes. Engagement and attention, right? You have to have engagement and attention, exactly what you're talking about. And errors definitely do matter, and we can talk about that side. But let's just take, take an example, which is, I'll give you a math problem. No instruction, figure it out. That's one way to try to learn. The better way to learn, the faster way to learn, is to give you them a worked example where you show them. And then you progressively remove the parts of the example where they're having to progressively go up. And then by the end, they can solve the problem with no scaffolding. It's a question of scaffolding. And that's a faster way to teach kids than just saying, good luck.

• 47:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it's, in some sense, incremental learning with an example at the front end.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so that's, that would be, a worked example is a good example. Then you have spaced repetition, which is, everybody has a forgetting curve. And they're different by person, back to that frontier curve. And so how often, and right before you're going to forget it, you want to remind them. Then if you do that over a few times, then it gets your recall from long-term memory. It will be there when you need it in the future. And so I have worked examples and then spaced repetition. Now, there's a debate, and there has been a debate, about do you need some drill and kill, known as initial mastery? That you have to hit it with initial mastery the first time you're learning it? Or can you not learn it to mastery?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  But because of spaced repetition over time, by the third or fourth time, you'll get the equivalent of mastery.

• 48:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you're defining mastery as like 95% or better?

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Correct. And so that's been a debate around it. You can't measure that in a school. That's too fine-grained. We actually measured it over the last year. And our learning scientists, actually, because of the papers that's published, is very much, you don't need initial mastery. You can do it with spaced repetition. And what's, what's interesting is, at the end of the year, we were looking at our scores. And basically, in eighth through 12th, we crushed it with just worked examples and spaced repetition. Because once you get into algebra, the multi-line problems, worked examples really matter. But in fourth through seventh, it wasn't as effective because the problems are easier. And so what you lose is you want more initial mastery

• 49:40Speaker 00

  because the worked examples aren't as important. And so like this year, when we saw the scores go down, we then just added initial mastery back to it. So you get the worked example, you get the initial mastery and then spaced repetition. And that data set between those two things, that's a data set that doesn't exist out there.

• 49:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  And it seems to me that data set would be very valuable for schools outside of Alpha School. Just to understand that for whatever it is that kids are generally taught in the curriculum of, you said, fourth to seventh, that they need to get to 95% or better proficiency. English literature, calculus, things like that, if they're learning those things. You're saying if they don't need to get to mastery, where do they need to get to?

• 50:19Speaker 00

  They need to get to mastery all the time. Initial mastery always matters. Just, it always does. And so whether it's learning your vocabulary words, you know, to that example, reading comprehension is a, is a function of vocabulary. Like we can measure now. You know, today, the best way to do well on SAT English or, you know, to know English is just read lots of books.

• 50:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  And look up the words you don't understand.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  And don't.

• 50:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you'll kill the verbal. You'll just, like with verbal GRE, it's always a little tricky with people in the sciences. You're like, I'm worried about the verbal GRE. And you just go, read a book, a good book, and underline every word you don't understand, look it up, and then have a vocabulary list. I still have those vocabulary lists. And you, and everyone ends up in like the 90th plus percentile if they actually do that.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Correct. That's why good schools, right, who do well on the SAT have a great lit program, right? They have a great, good, great books program. And here, look at our book list. This is what all the kids read because that's what's going to drive vocabulary, which, which drives the scores. It drives knowledge acquisition as well. You know, we're, in our apps, we can literally determine, okay, well, we can, we can teach you the vocabulary words. We've actually learned the problem that you have is when you take a vocabulary word, and it's just like a flashcard-like vocabulary word, you don't know its limits. Like, what's the difference between happy and ecstatic? And if you just are flashcarding, you really can't tell the range. That's what you get from reading books. When you read 10,000 pages,

• 51:44Speaker 00

  you then are like, ah, I now understand the difference between ecstatic and happy, right? Where are the boundaries of the vocabulary words? And that's how you build a rich vocabulary, right, and a rich reading comprehension and capability. That's one of the things like in our apps now, we can just be like, oh, we can give you vocabulary words and show you the limits and help educate you directly where it's, it's a more effective way than read the book and go look it up when you don't know it. And so back to all these different things, initial mastery matters just on everything. Let's even go further. There's sort of concepts, which is, have you solved it once? Have you done it enough to mastery, which is, you know, I can do three easy problems, or I can do 10 hard ones. The 10 hard ones is mastery.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  And then even if I can do the 10 hard ones, can I do it a month later, right? Did I cram the night before? Because cramming's bad. Can I do it one month before, two months before? Spaced repetition covers that. There's a third dimension that really matters, and this is back to cognitive science, which is, you know, the way the brain works is you have a certain number of working memory slots, and then you have long-term memory. And your working memory slots are limited. You have limited attention and you're, that's, right, that's computing, right? That's where you're thinking. And the concept is though, of fluency is this magical concept about brain science, right? It's magical, which is if you memorize something to fluency,

• 53:12Speaker 00

  when you use it, it doesn't take a working memory slot. And working memory slots are a function of IQ. It's like the best way to be farther on your frontier curve, independent of, you know, whatever your brain chemistry is. Which is, if I have memorized something to fluency, and here's the example to think about it. Let's take multiplication tables. And why is algebra hard if I haven't memorized my math facts? If I know seven times eight is 56, that takes nothing, right? You just know it. I have a defluency. If I have to calculate seven times eight, I'm actually using my working memory slots. The problem is I only have a few of them. So when I'm in algebra, I'm in a multi-step word problem,

• 53:53Speaker 00

  and I'm using my slots up for something that I can't because I need it for other things. And that's why when kids get to algebra and they start to struggle, the issue's not the algebra. The issue's the third grade math facts they didn't learn. And the way to fix the problem is not pound them with more algebra. It's to go fix the third grade problem. You want the most crazy example we have is we had a girl who's low 700 math SAT. She kept taking the test and kept getting careless errors. And I was like, focus, focus, you need to focus. And then we figured out, you don't know your math facts. So we had her go back and learn, right, memorize your multiplication tables.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  And first of all, back to like changing education, you can't convince someone with a 710 that the problem's a third grade lesson. You definitely can't convince their parents, right? That took a lot of motivational pushing on our guides to do that.

• 54:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  What about the student? What was her attitude toward?

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Her attitude's like, I can't, I don't need to do that. Look, I'm good in math. I'm in advanced math. 710 is not a bad score. It's not 800, but it's, it's, but she's like, it can't be that I need my multiplication tables. And she's like, and everybody's telling her it's careless. You're being careless. She was just running out of working memory slots. And so she went back, memorized her multiplication tables, and she got a 790 math SAT.

• 55:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which speaks beautifully to what we know about neuroplasticity of learning. I mean, like, like you're saying, I mean, memories, people always go, it's like the hippocampus. It's passed to the cortex, the fluency piece. I think that this notion of freeing up working memory slots, maybe we just double click on that for a second. I think people assume, well, you, even if it would take this, this young woman a little bit longer to do the multiplication, then she could then move to the next step of the problem. There are two issues there, right? As I understand, and you'll, you'll tell me that there's probably more. One is that there's a time pressure on the test. And the other piece is that we know that ability to focus is also constrained by the things that you're not consciously thinking about.

• 55:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, we know this from the phone, for example. I'm curious how Alpha School changed phones. We know that if the phone is upside down on a table, based on a good study, in a bag under the chair, performance drops. But if it's out of the room, performance is rescued. It doesn't get better. And we know that in every case, the student can focus, or the person can focus. I believe this was done in adults. But the issue is they don't have enough cognitive space to be able to elaborate on ideas, come up with novel solutions and things like that. So it's not really a focus issue. It's that the brain is computing consciously and unconsciously. So my guess is that she could iterate, but that there's some higher order concept is not coming, becoming clear.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, correct. The number of working memory spots, slots is the number of unique, you know, chunks that you can think about. And I'll give a different example, and maybe this, this also helps. You just have a limit and you run out. And if you're using them for something, you can't use it for something else. And a certain math problem takes a certain number of slots. Like, so I can predict, are you going to struggle with this math problem? And is it too hard for you based on whether you have fluency or not? Even if I know you know the problem, even if you've taught the material and you know how to do it, I can tell whether you're going to struggle. You can take gifted kids as an example. They have the most working memory slots. But every gifted kid goes through this in math, which is they do everything in their head. They never write down their work.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  And everybody's always like, you're going to have to write down and show your work. And they're all like, whatever, I just do everything in my head. And then every gifted kid at some point in their education hit their wall because there's some math that you just can't do in your head and you have to start writing down. And they haven't learned it. They've learned all the bad habits. They haven't learned the good habits, the good traits of actually, how do I do a multi-step problem where I'm working it down? And they hit a wall, and for the first time, they're like, I can't do a math problem.

• 57:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that one of the reasons why child prodigies don't continue on a linear trajectory to hyper-performance? I mean, I was once told by a child prodigy, because he was referred to as a child prodigy and had performed, done something incredible. I don't want to reveal who this was. And he corrected me immediately. He said, former child prodigy. I was like, okay, get it. But he said you should look up the data on child prodigies. The outcomes are not super impressive. I mean, sometimes, yes, within a very narrow domain, but the outcomes are usually not that impressive as adults.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  We should go into that on that, on that whole thing. So we have a school that we're building for gifted kids. A lot of the problems that we have in our current school system is we're not challenging and we're boring these child prodigies. And we're teaching them the worst habits in the world. And so we're giving them 12 years of the worst habits, and then even their capability can't overcome that. That it's the super gifted athlete who literally has every bad habit in the book. And then you're like, oh, now in the MLB, you're doomed. And that is what we do with most of our gifted kids. And we're not teaching, we're not, they're not challenged, right? They sit there and they're bored and they can answer every question like this, you know, through the program, versus giving them the challenging problem when they're in third grade and fourth grade.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  And then they're having to learn all the right skills so that they can progress through. And we also, in our culture, we highlight gifted athletes, you know, 100 times more. It's, it's better to be the quarterback on the West, like, football team than it is to be the, the number one academic kid at that school.

• 59:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  In the US.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  In the US. Yeah, we are in, foreign's very different, for sure. But in the US, that. And so one of the things we're going to do with that program, and we can talk about later, is just find 100,000 smartest kids in this country and turn them up to 11. Like, if these kids can learn 10 times faster, let's get it to everybody. We started this program, Texas has a voucher program. We have, you know, rural Texas kids who their school, they just don't have access to it. They're joining up this program and they are crushing through it. And so we're going to get that out broadly across America.

• 59:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's, this has always been the dream, like, like, where's the next Einstein? Like, maybe this Einstein kid here, he is like, I don't know, they don't even know that they have this capability.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. Our goal is to get these 100,000 kids academically MIT-eligible by middle school. That's 1580 SATs, fives on, you know, Calc BC, Physics C, AP Lang Lit, those kind of things, where we're like, these kids have all this potential. We are wasting it. We're boring them and we should just turn them up. But we think it's every kid is like that. I, you know, I don't think every kid back to the frontier. Every kid can't get to MIT eligible by middle school, but the ones who can, we should. But we can get every kid in America dramatically better than where they are today in academics.

• 1:00:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, we can get them to their frontier.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Correct. We can get them to their frontier. And so, and that's what this system does where you're like, well, get them to the frontier, which is, reading is just fluency, right? If you're, when you're learning how to read, you're struggling because you don't know the words. And then eventually it becomes fluency and then you don't have to think about it and you can crush through it. And then reading becomes much more fun, much more enjoyable. And so, a lot of this is just, we don't do the basics. We need to nail the basics, just like in sports. My famous example I always use is if you lose the ball 20% of the time going down the court. The coach is not saying, let's work on the dunks and the alley oops or even the layups. They're like ball handling. We're going to get ball handling. 20% is an acceptable. 15% isn't acceptable. You can't be 85, 80% accurate.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  In America, we're like, you're getting a B, man. Move on. We're moving on to dunks. You just finished fourth grade at 80%. Let's get you into that fifth grade stuff. And the answer is no. No, because then all those problems compound. And let's go the other way. If you're struggling in chemistry, I can give you an algebra test and tell you how you're going to do in chemistry. Because chemistry is basically algebra with cool word problems. And if you don't know algebra, the time to try to learn algebra is not in the middle of a chemistry problem. You need to know it. And so, algebra, I can give you a fraction test. Algebra is basically, can you do fast manipulation of fractions? And so, what's your fluency on fractions? Fractions are just, have you memorized your multiplication and division tables?

• 1:01:59Speaker 00

  You know, math more than anything, but even reading on stuff with vocabulary words, it's all just a layer. And if you don't have the foundation and you just keep pushing kids higher, that's, the learning curves in this country slow down. If you take our learning curves relatively, you know, kindergarten, by the time you get to middle school and high school. High school, the median student in America doesn't learn anything. There's a test, there's a bunch of them, but you can use this one, which is N W E A MAP test. It's a 300 point scale. The average eighth grader to 12th grader goes up one point. From a, you know, it depends on the subject, but 233 to 234, four years later.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  They don't learn anything. And the reason is because if I'm in the advanced math, I'm like, I don't know my multiplication tables. And if I don't know it and I don't know it to mastery, I'm not going to able to progress and it's going to eventually catch up with me. The same way in basketball, if you said, I have a player who's a B player, 80% across every function. They're not going to score one point in a basketball game. Because they're going to miss the pass, they're going to lose a dribble. It's just, there's too many things you have to put in sequence. And you put all those things in sequence, right, around education and that's it. And before, we just didn't have the system. Now, an AI tutor can sit there and be like, I know exactly what you know, right?

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  I can give you an assessment. I, I can know exactly what you know, what you don't know. I can give you a lesson personalized to you that says, you need this lesson. And then I give it to you. And then I'm going to hit you to mastery. I'm going to keep you in that loop to mastery. And then you're mastery now. I'm like, I'm going to let you go on to the next one. Last year, right, we starting open lots of campuses and, you know, we're high in private school. So we had, you know, these are kids coming from $50,000 private school. These are our best schools in the country they're coming from. The average student, when they transferred into Alpha and took our assessment test, we're 2.2 grade levels behind. And what does that mean? I got in front of all the parents, you know, like, look, this means two things. First, don't freak out. You are going to freak out because we're about to send you the scores.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  And it's going to show that your eighth grader can't answer some sixth grade questions, some fifth grade questions even. And when it got to writing, like it was even lower because everybody's been using ChatGPT to write their papers. And so, you're going to freak out because you're like, oh my God, my kid's two grade levels behind or three grade levels behind. But you're thinking that takes like 200 hours, 180 school days, right, all this. Our average student can do an entire grade level, one subject, between 20 and 30 hours in K through eight. 20, 30 hours, back to the 10 times.

• 1:04:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  So they can catch up.

• 1:04:42Speaker 00

  Do an hour a day of homework to catch up. And you're three years behind, that's 90 days. The most positive use case, if you said, you know, what's the number one thing we could use AI for? It's not giving kids chatbots that's going to work. It's giving them an individualized lesson plan based on their level to catch them up to grade level. And that would be the single best thing we could do to fix education in America. Let's talk about motivation and why it matters. And if you take an eighth grader, you can't go put them in third grade classes.

• 1:05:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  And if you leave them in an eighth grade class, he can't learn. He can't learn. And so, we have this system where it's, it's not the teacher's fault, like I, I have to teach eighth grade material. Like I'm not teaching the third and fourth grade stuff and the fifth grade stuff. And so, this is where if we gave these person individualized lessons, right? AI could generate individualized lessons for everybody in America. And we could then go catch them up because it's not that hard. It doesn't take that many hours. It takes lots of hours when you're teaching years ahead of their capability. It, it's 20 to 30 hours per grade level if they're motivated. And that's the problem with ed tech when we talk about that, of when we talk about motivation's 90%. When we design our schools, we are like, we need to design a school that they love.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  So that even when it's hard and they don't like the subject. Look, when you love a subject, it's all easy, right? Like, we don't have to worry about those problems. They solve themselves. You're like, what about the STEM kid who doesn't want to read the book, right? Doesn't like it or vice versa. I have the arts theater middle schooler who's like, I can't do math. How do we get them to do that? And that's why we say motivation's 90% of the problem or the solution. Because you have to be able to motivate the person to engage with these personalized lessons to learn it. And the first step that we do on that is we show them it's tractable. When you're like, I'm three years behind, you're like, I'm out. It's too far. I'm a year behind. It's too much work.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  When you're like, you're 22 hours behind. It's 22 hours.

• 1:06:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Totally, totally different message.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  It's just a completely different message. We are taking kids who are years behind and catching them up. Because they see it and say, I can do an hour of homework a day to go, to go fix that problem.

• 1:06:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.

• 1:07:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing. Especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus. And I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

• 1:08:17Speaker 00

  It seems to me that one of the really wonderful features of what you're describing is also the removal of the, the shame component, right? Like, like here, we're, we're thinking about and talking about students, not as robots, because we intend to, but, but sort of as like these, the generic young woman, young man who are like gapping in algebra, they're going to learn algebra. But there's a whole social psychological context here. And I'd like to touch on that just a little bit because as you're explaining Alpha School, I'm, I'm seeing and to some extent remembering the many times I or others were either not in keeping or were ahead or bored. I mean, I think we've all experienced being in the different positions.

• 1:08:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Exactly.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Like if every kid is behind in something and, or most every kid is behind in something. The idea that you're 22 hours behind in something, that, that can be, that gap can be made up. Not in total isolation, but not with peers observing.

• 1:09:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  I have a friend, he's, he's a brilliant and very successful musician. And he describes an experience in the sixth grade where he got called to the board to do math. And he's dyslexic and he wrote his seven backwards. And the whole class laughed. And he told another friend of mine, they went to elementary school together. Maybe that was middle school, but this was in the East Bay, California. And he said, what happened? And this older kid said, well, if you think sixth grade is hard, seventh grade is like way harder. And you know, he told himself at that moment, he was terrible at math. Turns out, he's brilliant in music and he's actually exceptional in math because music and math.

• 1:09:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  Very much.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  Certain music is very mathematical. So these key moments in people's childhood, getting picked last for the kickball team or what, like you hear these. I'm not trying to diminish those examples, but the psychological component is something that really gets embedded in people. And it can set their trajectory, it, you know, off from, from finding their frontier in a major way. So what you're describing is really wonderful because assuming the digital tutor is not shaming the student.

• 1:10:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right. That's a wonderful thing. They can go, oh, God, I don't know this thing. I need to go learn this thing and can do it, make up the gap and you're done.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  You are a hundred percent right. And let's, let's talk about motivation is 90% of the solution. And so let's talk, you had talked before of like, what are bad standards that we have? When we talk about things, we talk about you learn twice as much in two hours a day because that's independent of your starting position, which is a critical part of our motivation, which is to this no shaming, which is when, when we're sitting there saying you're learning twice as much. It's that eighth grader who needs to be in third grade material. First off, he's getting lessons. Nobody knows he's in third grade material. It's, he's learning twice as much. It's showing his rate of lesson learning. And so for them, all our students are like,

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  I don't care where I am because I'm getting my points, right? And my, our motivational model based on wherever I started from. And back to if I'm learning 2X eventually, I catch up to the norm. Now that's something in our school system that's very bad, which is we measure our schools based on achievement. And I think this is like one of the big problems we have where this school is below level. There's two dimensions. Are kids at grade level and how fast are they learning?

• 1:11:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  So we should be looking at the slope of the line.

• 1:11:30Speaker 00

  You gotta look at, you gotta look at both, obviously, but yes, but if the slope's enough, they're eventually going to get there. And you should measure a school based on the rate of learning and the slope of the line, the growth rate, not its achievement. This is why everybody talks about selection effects. And if you want to go into that, which is, oh, good schools are just selection effects. If I just go get all the best kids, then duh, they're the best. And so my, my scores are the highest. What we should be measuring schools on is development. Schools are supposed to develop kids, right? Not just select them. And that's why we use growth rate, 2X and 2 hours, because it doesn't matter where you are. We believe a school's job is to accelerate their growth on lots of dimensions, whether it's academic or life skills, as much as you can.

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  And to measure that, and that's what parents should look at, which is put your kid in an environment where they're going to grow and where they're going to grow at a rate that is independent of their starting location. Cause to your point, everybody has strengths and weaknesses. And I'm the great academic who's not good on the life skills or the social skills or vice versa. I'm the theater kid and kids frontier is great across all of them. We have to untap it. And when you talk about motivation, one of the elements that we always talk about is, you know, what our guides do, like what do our adults do? Kids have blocks. I can't do that. I'm not that kind of person.

• 1:12:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm not good at that.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  I'm not good at that. And a job of a school and the job of an educator is to break that block. It's to crush that block and show the kid, that's not a true statement. You're awesome at that. And when you think about teachers, like, let's talk about teachers, because our schools are going to be, are full of teachers. They're always going to be full of teachers. AI is not going to replace the role of the human, because the human is the one who does sit there. We had a hundred thousand people, teachers apply for our roles last year. Like people want to be alpha guides. And the reason, think of this, the best teacher you had, like everybody remembers the one or two teachers who changed their life. It wasn't because they marked up your paper really well. That wasn't what did it for them. It was because you had some block. They saw you

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  and they convinced you, you could do so much more. They removed that block. That's what our guides just do every day. They're like, where's the block on this kid? And how do I remove it? So part of it is how do you set a system up where just the learning system itself is not based on achievement? It's based on growth rate. And so 2X and 2 hours as, as a mechanism. The other is what motivations do you have to blow through the blocks? We have a set of three girls who, when they were in middle school, they would have been considered, well, they were, they are arts theater girls. You know, and there's an epidemic in America of middle school girls who are like, I'm not good at math and science. And they just have this block and it's cultural and you read on Tik Tok that, right? And all these things.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  And so they, they just believe it's, you know, they can't do it. It's just not a true statement, right? The brain, I make them go, you know, go find me the learning science paper that shows middle school girls can't learn math, science. There are none of those. They can learn this math, science and it's middle school level, way back to their frontier. And so what we did is we figure out what's the motivation that will get them there. And my daughter was one of those girls when she was in middle school. And when she came in, she's like, I'm not a top 1%. You know, math, science girl, and I'm not gonna, you know, that's just not who I am. And I was like, well, I do know you love to shop. I bet you a thousand bucks, you can't get to top 1%.

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  And she like filled her shopping cart with, you know, the thousand dollars and every day she went and did the science problems. And she got to top 1%. We use aggressive motivational to break through things. Like we will pay kids straight up. And that's a controversial thing.

• 1:15:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Tell me more about that.

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's talk about.

• 1:15:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Nothing controversial on this podcast.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. So we'll pay a thousand dollars. So we're like, yeah, we'll give you a thousand dollars to get to top 1%. When kids go to alpha, we will pay them a thousand dollars to get to top 1%. Because we want to show them, you can all get to top 1%. There's a whole lot of things that you get into self determination theory and does it kill motivation? It doesn't. And we can, that, there's a whole nother debate about that, but just in our world, it doesn't. And we believe the research shows why, and we can get into it. But how I would term it is these kids have a block that they can't do it. You do whatever you can, including paying them to break through the block. They then see themselves as a different person, which then creates the intrinsic motivation going forward. So I'll take my daughter as an example.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  You know, actually I, my wife and I were arguing about this. A, you're setting a higher standard, right? To top 1%. Two, you're paying for it. You know, my wife wasn't as excited about that. After my daughter hit it, she went in, she's like, mom, I know you didn't like this. You need to understand it's changed how I see myself. I didn't think I was as smart as my older sister. But now I realize I can do everything she can do if I just put the effort in. And I'm going to push about, but um.

• 1:16:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's a beautiful example.

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  It's that when you're putting things through the loop, try hard things, get them through that motivation, whatever it takes. Have them see themselves because they experienced is as capable. Have a kindergarten to climb a 40 foot rock wall. Have a middle school girl say, I can be top 1%. Those three middle school arts theater girls all got 790 math SATs. Didn't have to pay them on that. They are like, oh, I guess I can do math. And I'm able to, to go there. And so this concept of showing kids they're capable and breaking through whatever their blocks are, whether it's the academic or the life skill side, is, is the unlock, right? Back to growth. That is what growth is.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  And kids will do hard things. They'll grind through it, right? And sometimes you have to decide what the, what the motivation is. And even if they're not intrinsically motivated on it, they're not intrinsically motivated because they see it as too hard and that's not who they are. And so you are figuring out, how do I get you through that? It's that same in athletics. I'm not a soccer player. How do I get you to do the drills? How do I get the reps? And so we, we talk about money on two things on, one, when you're trying to get them to do something hard and break through. And second, to do the daily habits where if I can get the reps in, then I'm going to build a good habit. And so here's another place where we pay. This was one of my hardest problems my first year. So four years ago, you know, I came in as principal and I'm like, okay, to the seventh graders.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  I'm like, you could all get a hundred on the Texas star or state test. And these kids are like, that's impossible, Mr. Lamont. And I have to teach them to hole fill though, to do it, because it's correct. They can't today. There's no chance they can get one today. But I need them to go backward and do the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, right? Whatever, wherever they had holes in their knowledge to get them up to mastery. Cause they, they had mastery gaps. I then went to their parents. I'm like, you know, we need to go do hole filling with your kid. They don't know this material. Seventh graders don't want to go back in fourth grade. Parents want it even less. American parents have been told, my kid always has to be at grade level as an educational philosophy. And that's just, the learning science does not support that. But I couldn't convince them and it's a motivation problem now, because I have the kid and the parents are like, we're not doing it.

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I can't fix that then. If I don't get, if I don't get those holes filled, I can't fix this.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  So I went to the kids directly and I was like, you can get a hundred on the seventh grade. And they're like, no, you can't. And I'm like, well, I'll give you a hundred bucks if you get a hundred, hundred for a hundred. So we created a hundred for a hundred. They're like, that's still impossible. I, I still can't do that. I was like, no, no, we have a catch any grade level.

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  And they're like, I can take a kindergarten test and you're going to give me a hundred bucks. And I'm like, well, the Texas star starts in the third grade. And they're like, I'm in. And they take the third grade test and get a hundred bucks because they got a hundred on. And they take the fourth grade test and get another hundred bucks. Then they take the fifth grade test and get an eighty five. And I'm like, do you want the AI to generate those lessons you missed? So you can get a hundred? And they're like, let me see how many that is. And they're like, I can do that this week. Sure. Then they get a hundred. And then sixth grade and then seventh grade. And that's an example of we have to whole fill. I have huge blocks, society, kids, parents, nobody wants to do what the learning science says. You pay the kid a hundred bucks per lesson, per grade level.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  And, you know, sure, third and fourth grade, that $200 was wasted. But we could go fix our problems for 500 bucks, for a thousand bucks. We spend $20,000 per kid in American education.

• 1:19:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Standard schools, public schools.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  Every school, yeah. Public, the average public school spends $20,000 per kid, per year.

• 1:20:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Per year?

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, per year. So $240,000, we spent a quarter million dollars educating a kid. I'm like, let's take all those middle schoolers and pay them a thousand bucks to get to top 1%. Or let's take all those seventh graders and pay them 500 bucks to fill their holes. By law, actually, public schools can't give out cash to kids.

• 1:20:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  How does that law get changed?

• 1:20:20Speaker 00

  Exactly. How do we chase that law? And what's the proxy? What's the other proxy I can give them that they really want?

• 1:20:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Instead, they pay on the back end when they go out into society and hit a wall, right?

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  It's the societal optimal thing is just to pay the kid. There's, parents don't, a lot of people don't like the whole pay cash stuff. I get a lot of flack from my own alpha parents about it. But it's super effective when that's needed. Now, if everybody wanted to whole fill, I wouldn't have to do this. And if everybody understood how important it was, you probably wouldn't. Whole filling is master the basics. Go back. You're not good at dribbling. Let's go back and work on your dribbling skills. That's the sign of a good coach.

• 1:20:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  The shift in self-perception piece is the most important, right? Because, because we were talking about the importance of the slope of the line as well as meeting standards. But ultimately, it's that recognition, I can do hard things.

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:21:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or maybe that, that phrase should be changed. Maybe it should be, I can do what I thought were hard things. If it's delivered to me in the correct context and the correct way, I can learn. I've spent a lot of time on this podcast over the last, whatever, six years, trying to convince people to get morning sunlight and hydrate and like exercise. And then I try and teach them neuroplasticity and I try not to go too deep. But there's this great Max Del Brook saying, I think it was Max Del Brook, which was assume zero knowledge and infinite intelligence. The dirty secret is there isn't infinite intelligence, right? But there's always some place where somebody has zero knowledge. And what you're saying is the motivation piece is really the recognition that learning in one context has some similarities to learning in other contexts.

• 1:21:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, it's gonna hurt a little bit, but we don't have to make it hurt a lot.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:21:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  If it's delivered correctly. And forgive me, I want to, it seems like a tangent, but like, being the child of at least one parent who's a first generation immigrant.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  I was told my entire life how lucky I was. You were born at this time, you're in the United States, you went to the best public schools, you know, one of the best public schools in the country, you know. It's true, I didn't make as much of it as I could have or should have, but eventually, I like to think I made up. There's probably still a few gaps, maybe I'll go back. But the point being, I was told by my European relatives, you know, in, in many countries in Europe, it's just thought like, you're good at something or you're not good at something and your life trajectory is kind of set. That might be changing now, but the United States has always had this idea that you can become anything.

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:22:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I do think, as beautiful as the Spud Wet examples are, right? This quite shorter guy, winning the Slendunk competition in the NBA. It sends a complicated message, which is, how hard should we grind, right? Like, I think at the root of almost everything we're talking about today is, what should our attitude about suffering be? Because what we're talking about here, learning to suffer to get, fill in gaps and get better, everyone meets a very high standard. Or what we're talking about here is there's a different way where actually the suffering is minimal. So maybe we could just talk for a moment about suffering.

• 1:23:11Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:23:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  And forget what we believe in the United States or in Europe or anywhere else. And just think, what is your framework to suffering? Because most successful people think, yeah, I did hard things. I can do hard things. You want to pass that on to everybody.

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:23:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I'm not sure that's the best message.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  And as much as I love the David Goggins examples, he sat right in this chair where you're at. It's one of our most viewed episodes and those are beautiful examples. Most people aren't willing to suffer.

• 1:23:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:23:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  And maybe suffering isn't the best way to learn for most people.

• 1:23:42Speaker 00

  If I can teach you something and it doesn't require suffering, that's better than requiring suffering. If I can teach it to you and you just can learn it and it's easy, we should teach you as much that way as we can and get you through that. Now, back to suffering, when is suffering good? When do people want to suffer or when do they suffer? They suffer when they're doing things that they care about. And this goes back to motivation. When you talk to people who say, I have the greatest job in the world, there's a lot of suffering in that job. And they are happy and they are fulfilled and they are excited. There are students who are very motivated academically,

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  who suffer and struggle through it because it's doing something. There's no athlete who said, yeah, I just, I never had to struggle. I never had to suffer. That's not true, but I did it in purpose of something. I was able to do the struggle because I was trying to hit my goals. And if you look at education, how we look at it, K through five, fundamentally is, kids are just trying to make their parents happy. So if their parents say this, they follow their parents' lead in K through five. As soon as they hit middle and high school, it changes, right? It's social. Dr. Jaeger's whole book is, middle and high school is about being accepted by the tribe, right? And socialization, where and why there was always rites of passage and such, where why a 10-year-old would never do anything to make their parent upset.

• 1:25:08Speaker 00

  At 15, they'll do something they know their parent hates if it gets them street cred or social acceptance. And so what you have to decide for parents is, starting in middle school, and there's a great book called Self-Driven Child, that alpha parents read, that you have basically six years, right? Or seven years in middle and high school where you're trying to decide one of two things. Are you trying to unlock your kid's potential? Or impose your value system on them? And parents are trying to do sort of both. They're like, I think this is what matters. And a lot of the suffering that is ineffective in education is the kid's just like, I'm not into this. And you can push me as far as you want and all I'm going to do is push back harder. And you have that dynamic.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  If instead you lean into things the kid loves, right? Or they're focused on, they'll do incredibly hard things. And then I believe it's the educational system's design of, well, how do you put those two things together so we can do both? Where they learn the hard things that are important, but they also get to be doing the things they love. And so let's take an example, back to motivation's my biggest issue. And it's 90% of my solution. We have a sports academy where we have kids who are years and years behind. Academically, bottom 25% in the country. We'll be the largest recipient of vouchers in Texas for families who make less than $65,000. And we have a set of kids, we have over a thousand of them,

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  who aren't excited about academics, aren't excited about struggling in academics, haven't done academics basically for years, middle and high school age. And they're in our schools, learning faster than the best private schools in the country. They're learning two hours, two X and two hours. And you're like, how do you get them to do that hard thing? How are you getting them to do that? Well, first, you make the learning as easy as possible for them in that, don't take that eighth grader, age-wise, and put him in eighth grade material when he, his knowledge grade is third grade and fourth grade and fifth grade. Don't do that. That's, that's impossible. That's not hard. That's not doable. So give him third, fourth or fifth grade lessons, which our individualized lesson gives it.

• 1:27:18Speaker 00

  So he's like, oh, this is now doable. It went from impossible to doable. Now, I still have to spend the two hours. I have to grind through it. I have to learn my multiplication tables. I never did. And so we give them the ability to do that. And in our system, for the first time, they're actually in a lesson that's not too hard or not too easy. It's right for them. But then, I come, I'm not into education. I don't see what, what's important about it. What drives it? Well, you know, it drives motivation is at noon, if they do the two X and two hours, if the AI says, you've learned enough today because you're on track for two X of two hours, you get to play basketball. So I have a school, high school in Dallas, Jermaine O'Neal, the six-time NBA All-Stars, the, is head of the school.

• 1:28:01Speaker 00

  I get to go practice. They're the number one basketball team in the country. And those kids are like, yeah, I guess I'm going to do the academics because I want to play basketball. And I want to be on the best basketball team. We have the best baseball team in the country.

• 1:28:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  So that's the thousand bucks.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  And that's the thousand bucks, sports. You know, we're rolling this out broadly. And it depends on access and how many vouchers are available and, and things like this and how many they're granted. But, you know, across the state of Texas, there's going to be kids who, you know, voucher are able to then say, I got this new advanced learning that's the best education you can get in America, right? The fastest, better than the best private schools. And at noon, I'm going to my sports facility and I'm playing whatever sport I love. And they're gated, right? We used to do this a lot in education and back to lowering standards and change stuff. You used to have a, have to have a GPA minimum to play on after-school sports, right? And that drove a lot.

• 1:28:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  That doesn't exist anymore.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  And it, that has been way watered down for a lot of reasons. And in our schools, we're like, no, they're gated where you have to do this. You know, and one of the things because of this, back to, I can't run a school that delivers this without doing hard things. On this side, it's the academics, the kids are motivated with, with the sports. But, you know, one of the things it allows us to say is that if you go to one of these schools, your odds of a D1 scholarship double. Because every college coach in the country will tell you, if I have two equivalent athletes, the one who's the great academic, who's ground, who's done hard things, I want them on my team. And that's a differentiator, right? And you're going to double your odds of getting one.

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  So when you look at things, we wake up every day on this hard and struggle and say, how do we build a school kids love, right? Love it more than vacation, because that's what's going to drive them to do hard things. Now, we, as the adults, have to develop kids and say, you can't just play and do all the things you want. There's requirements. You have behavioral standards. You can't act that way. No, you don't get your cell phone sitting next to you during the academic part of the day. No cell phones. That actually changes when we get up into the upper high school, because we're trying to get them ready for the real world. So K through eight, no way. As you start to get into high school, you can earn your cell phone,

• 1:30:19Speaker 00

  because we have to show you out in the real world, there's going to be no one hiding it. And so you should hide it yourself, but we're not going to force it, because we have to get you ready. But back to all these rules. Adults have to set the standards for the kids. This is it. This is what's great performance. Kids want to do it. They'll go live up to them. We're not having trouble on the two hours on the academic side in the sports academy, because they're doing what they love. And they see, okay, this all makes sense. This seems like a fair trade. And so that's what I believe is that kids will do hard stuff. Parents, guides, adults, we need to set these high standards for the kids. And they can live up to them if we're helping them be who they want to be, not just pounding them into whatever square peg we think they should be.

• 1:31:04Speaker 00

  That's the dichotomy. You know, when you talk about mental health issues in high-end elite schools, a lot of it is the kids are being pounded into a cell they don't want, where if instead you're like, I'm going to help you achieve what you want, but here's the things you have to do to be part of it. I'll give you more examples, you know, on this that we do on motivation. So we just announced a high school, our high school program. So we didn't, we do our three commitments. Love school more than vacation, two X and two hours. And then third, learn all the life skills you want. And we have five stacks. Leadership and teamwork, entrepreneurship and financial literacy, socialization, relationship building, storytelling, public speaking, grit, hard work. We have a stack starting in kindergarten for each one. And so when you talk about hard things, right?

• 1:31:49Speaker 00

  Our grit, hard work, our kindergartners climb rock walls. Our second graders all run a 5K. By eighth grade, you have to do a tough mutter. It's a teamwork one combo and cross the finish line at the same time as everybody, which is actually the hard part in eighth grade, because someone always wants to finish first. But it's a teamwork and tough. And so you have these standards of grit and hard work. But here's one of driving it is on our financial literacy entrepreneurship stack. We just announced, and it's opening this year for the first time, a high school program called Founder School. It's an entrepreneurial school. And its promise is you'll earn a million dollars in profit. You'll start a business, earn a million dollars of profit, or you get all your tuition back.

• 1:32:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  Each kid.

• 1:32:32Speaker 00

  Each kid earns a million dollars. And just life skills are trainable, just like other skills, right? And you can teach grit and hard work. You can teach financial literacy. All of our kindergartners learn how to earn, save, spend, invest, and donate. And they just start that. Financial literacy is the number one thing parents request that schools don't teach. We just start it in kindergarten. And if you go up the stacks, we have, you know, middle school kids who are running Airbnbs and launching food trucks. We have vending machines. They learn gross margin, trying to, what products do I put in the vending machines? And how do I get it placed somewhere where I can earn money?

• 1:33:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  So cool.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  And so, but then a million dollars, but by high school, it's totally trainable. Alex Frumozzi is helping like design the program.

• 1:33:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, he's perfect for this.

• 1:33:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And all the kids love him, right?

• 1:33:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  All the kids wear the little nose.

• 1:33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, and they all love him, right? He's like influencer central and they, they, they are like, he is the one who I want to learn from.

• 1:33:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Very cool.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  But for that, if you go to that website, go to Founder School website, and you look at the academic standards, they are hard, as hard as any school in this country. This isn't going to be creating crypto bros who are just hacking the world to make money. This school is building philosopher builders is their framework, right? And the academics, if you ask AI, analyze this book list, they're like, it's different than a classics book list that you'd get at Exeter or the best schools. But it's not less rigorous. These kids are like, I'll absolutely do all that. Coming in, they were not thinking, this is what I need, you know, this was my path was to crush academics. But back to the standards, they're like, I will totally do it, because I get to start a business and earn a million dollars, right? And I get to do what I love.

• 1:34:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  All the adults listening are like, I want to go back to school, right?

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  It is.

• 1:34:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  You probably hear this all the time.

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  No, it is. We have an event this weekend for this Founder School. And, you know, we thought there'd be like 10 or 15 people who wanted it. And there's 150 people who are showing up.

• 1:34:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing.

• 1:34:23Speaker 00

  We literally have people moving to alphas in cities, because they're like, my 10-year-old's going to go to Alpha, so they're ready for Founder School and stuff. But focusing on designing a school, we have them for 12 years. Let's build schools where the kids are like, I wake up every day and I rush to school because it's so awesome. And, you know, back to sports academy, there's a great testimonial where a mom is basically like, look, he used to skip school 25% of the time. I could never get him to go to school. Today, he wakes me up and it's like, Mom, we can't be late, because I got to get my two hours in, because I can't keep coach waiting. And that whole picture, that's when we look at the problem. It's not just make kids work harder.

• 1:35:06Speaker 00

  It's be aligned with what they want, and they will willingly work harder. And as long as we, as the adults, set the high standards for what that is, they'll totally do it.

• 1:35:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it's suffering with a purpose, and the purpose is internalized in them.

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  This is what I'm hearing.

• 1:35:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, because parents can ram stuff down kids' throats all day long, and that just creates more resistance. And that's one of the beauties of youth is like the rebellion piece that kicks in around puberty is like, it's an important part of our species evolution, right?

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  And but parents can help. Parents want their kids to excel. And actually, when kids are excelling, parents change their frame of what they expected. They just sort of have their frame of what they think excellence is. But when they see their kid in a different dimension excel, they're like, that's really great, too. My example was with my dad, which was, you know, in academics, I was the total slacker. And I didn't like school.

• 1:35:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Things worked out pretty well for you.

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  They did, but I didn't like school. I tried to do the minimum possible.

• 1:36:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  This was high school?

• 1:36:06Speaker 00

  Well, and I dropped out of college, so sort of both.

• 1:36:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you, but you left college in part to go create something.

• 1:36:12Speaker 00

  Great, but that's, well, I was busy doing, like in high school, it's the same thing. What am I doing other stuff?

• 1:36:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  You were driven.

• 1:36:18Speaker 00

  And I, so in high school, I was not academically driven. You know, I did the minimum. I wanted to go to Stanford. I knew I wanted to go to Stanford, so I'm like, what's the minimum work I could do? You know, you'd round up, an A was a 90 or above. They only had one thing. And so I'd be like, well, I need an A 9.5. And I would literally be like, I will do that much work and not one. I will not do one more question than I need to, you know, to hit that grade, you know, to get in. The minimum possible. If I didn't need to go to school, you didn't see me there, got in trouble for skipping too many times. And then I got Stanford, and academically, I was sort of the same way. One of the things I was interested in since I've been, I wrote a paper in high school. 1985, I wrote a paper on AI. And it was old school AI, not today's.

• 1:37:01Speaker 00

  And neural nets, it said neural nets, I had a paragraph, they're decades away. And so expert systems and ontologies were the thing back then. And so I then went to Stanford. Professor Fagerbaum was the father of expert systems back then. And he was talking about all these great opportunities. And I'm like, I can't motivate to go to Spanish class. I, I just can't. And all these other academic classes, I'm just uninterested in. And I dropped out. And the, back to my dad and this whole thing about what parents. My dad was so devastated for the whole, my whole academic career, because he's like, you're a total slacker. You're not meeting your potential. You get in trouble at school. You do the bare minimum.

• 1:37:44Speaker 00

  You go to a great school and you freaking drop out. You're not even doing your academics. There's a famous quote in Forbes or whatever, where he's like, you're such a moron, you know, for dropping out. It wasn't, that was new back then, and that wasn't his comment today. Yeah, in the eighties, there weren't a lot of people dropping out. And so he was just like devastated by this, because he had his frame of what was success. 18 months later. He was like, thank God you dropped out. That was the best thing that ever happened. Because in that 18 months, he saw me go to work 100 hours a week. I'm sleeping under the desk. We're doing everything we can to make this startup successful. And we're working like crazy.

• 1:38:25Speaker 00

  And he's like, you know, I was so worried that you are a lazy little shit. And he's like, thank God you're not. He just needed to see the gears turn. Exactly. And that is what parents want. And so I was a total failure in his book on all the academic side and all those things. Because he was not seeing what parent, the life skill, the grit, the things that make you successful. I wasn't demonstrating them sort of through my academic career. And it was only when I dropped out and started my business where he's like, ah, my kid's not gonna be a loser. This is gonna be great. He's gonna do fine. Everything's fine. And, you know, in our high school, in the afternoons, kids do these projects called Alpha Xs, which is their passion project for four years. And they change a lot because kids change their things.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  But it's what they want to do. And these kids do amazing things. Could you give me some examples? So we had one student who is doing Broadway musical. Because she has four years where in Broadway venues, all the music was sourced off TikTok. She can fill a thousand person venue with the songs. They were, you know, they streamed a million streams like the first day it was released. She's an arts theater girl, right? And she had to learn legal rights, music rights. She got in a big fight with one of the TikTok singers. Because, you know, in the auditions, she picked somebody else first. And this person with millions of views, it's like, I will ruin you. That's a life education. You know, and all these things. And she's, you know, 16 and 17. And the parents are like, this is the greatest thing ever.

• 1:39:53Speaker 00

  And she was one of the 790 girls. Got into Northwestern and NYU and UC and UCLA and all that stuff. But she was doing what she loved and had to do hard things. And that taught her what grit and hard work and hard things are, which made it easier when she has to do hard things in other domains. Other examples, we'll have the first high school student lead researcher published in Nature. That's no small feat. And so peer reviewed. Those, I mean, I think some people probably heard of this, but I mean, there's sort of like two apex journals is Nature and Science. These are international journals. The rejection rate for even reviewing a paper upfront is about 90 plus percent. And then the, so the final acceptance rate is somewhere around 1% or less. Many scientists will go their entire career without ever publishing one.

• 1:40:38Speaker 00

  And if they do, you should ask them where they were on the author line. So a lead, being first or last on the author line is like truly an accomplishment. Yeah. She trained an LLM in social emotional advice. Because there's a view of AIs are terrible. AIs can be good or bad. And obviously, if you use them as chatbots, they're bad in education. If you get addicted to them, it's bad on the social emotional side. But they can be trained and done well the other side. The interesting part of the study was she trained an LLM to give teens social emotional advice, but it won't be as good as parents. The surprising finding was it crushed the parents at giving social emotional advice to teens. So she designed specific prompts? Yes.

• 1:41:19Speaker 00

  That are better than any sort of generic prompts of what a parent would say. And the domain was dating and what advice would parents give? And a lot of it is, you know, if you look at the paper, it's just parents give really bad advice about dating today. Because they're using their context and they don't understand online and all these crazy things. It's a different environment than it was back then. And so she had to go on back to building things and things she love. You know, she has like 53 million likes on TikTok or whatever. She had this huge data source of I'm giving dating advice online. And we're going to embed this into a chatbot, tested and proven, and then show with all my user base that it's super highly effective.

• 1:42:02Speaker 00

  And so these are the kind of things that kids can go do. If you had told that girl in eighth grade, hey, go be published in Nature, they're like, that's too hard. But you can scaffold them into it. Other big projects, we have one who's now marketing Martin Scorsese's latest film. And so he's been learning all the things you need to do to do that. We have a set of our AI kids who, OpenClaw, you know, they presented at South by and Claude Con. They built little businesses there in $50,000 in 10 days. And so these kids, it's not just academics that they can crush through. There's all these life skills. If you teach them entrepreneurship, right? If you unlock their potential in the afternoon. And let's step back a little step.

• 1:42:45Speaker 00

  When we sit and say, we, we think people should reimagine education, right? For the next decade, over the next decade, for the next 100 years versus the last 100 years. It's development of the whole child. McKinsey, who's the founder, right, the co-founder, her favorite line, which we believe super strongly at Alpha is, this is the best time in history to be a five year old. Which is our ability to make that first 12 years awesome and unlock their potential on all dimensions. They get to love school for 12 years. They're academics, they're going to learn 10 times faster. These kids are going to have a head full of knowledge that's more than what their parents had. We're going to be able to fill their head with knowledge. The learning science shows that the more you know, the faster you learn, right? And so it's like increasing.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  And then the third part is the life skills that we think are important. They're going to have most of their day to work on this. They're going to be able to sit here and say, this AI world's coming. Things are going to change and I get to go live and experience in that. And I get to do things. That framing we use about philosopher builder, like who are kids that are going to come out of school? On the philosophy side, one, it's a proxy for good academics. You can crush your academics and fill your head. The other part is philosophy, which alternates over history between the most important thing and the least important major. I believe with AI is coming back into the fore, which is what's humans' role? When there's all these AIs around and what's the existential debates?

• 1:44:15Speaker 00

  And what did all the great thinkers think about? And so you're going to have things like that on the philosophy side. But the second part, and I believe schools really need to do this. And this is when we think about the life skills. It's the builder side. We need to create builders. That is what kids need to be doing. That's what adults need to be doing. You can't just be thinking. Schools can't be just sitting in class all day. You have to build. And when kids get to build, whether it's physically and sports and I'm climbing or I'm building drones and robots or I'm building a business. I'm, I'm writing books, I'm making videos, whatever those programs are. That's what engages kids. That's what they love. And we need to bring that back. There's whole vocational programs now for high schoolers where it's like,

• 1:44:56Speaker 00

  we're going to have you learn how to do advanced manufacturing and build robots or things like that. In, you know, 100 years or 50 years ago, shop class, you know, build things. We are very strong believers in the build philosophy, which is, and let's take middle school again, right? This time of transition. We get a ton of transfers into Alpha who are consumers. They're on the dopamine loop. They're caught on TikTok, they're caught on Fortnite, right? And they're just caught in the loops. Causes mental health issues, they're isolated, right? All these problems. And what we do is we have a program called Dream Launcher. Where we're like, we have to break these kids out of this loop, right? We have to develop them. You can't develop a kid who's in that loop. And so Dream Launcher is do your vision board. Who do you want to be?

• 1:45:41Speaker 00

  And kids, even the ones in the dopamines, have great ideas of what they want to do. Not only do they think they're awesome, they're like, I am awesome, I'm great. You know, do a Japanese Ika guy, right? If you know, which is, and back to these, what do you love? But what are you good at? Back to, you can't just follow a passion. You have to be good at stuff. And yet if you can develop the skills, great, but you can't do things that you're terrible at. Because in your Japanese Ika guy, the world won't pay you for that. What does the world value? What does the world pay you for? What are you good at? And what do you love? And you, you help them understand and they can figure out how to find their sweet spot there. So they have these great visions of this is who I want to be. And they start thinking about it in middle school. These Alpha X projects, you know, sort of in high school, they, they, they do it more.

• 1:46:26Speaker 00

  And then we hit them with reality. We're like, now you have to do the 168 hour project. You got to track every hour of your week. And that's when they come back and they're like, oh, I guess I'm going to be the world's best. Because you are what you do. I guess I'm going to be the world's best TikTok scroller. Yeah, their thumbs. And the depression. No, and they're, they understand it. They're like, I just draw my vision of who I want to be. And now I realize my day to day habits aren't going to get me there. That's a big delta to internalize, which is just nerdy speak for like.

• 1:46:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  That hits hard.

• 1:46:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it's great to get the lesson at the time they're getting it. I mean, actually, in addition to this notion of motivation and suffering and the sort of concepts around that, and I think you illustrate beautifully how one can reconcile those and hold high standards, still feel supported, still come at things from an intrinsic place of I can do hard things, even if there's a lure of cash or a D1 or a scholarship, whatever it is. I feel like this is the piece that I want to double click on because most of the world are consumers. And, you know, it only occurred to me like five years ago that even though I wasn't a particularly good high school student, the friends I was skateboarding with, even though I wasn't good enough to turn pro, they either turned pro or started companies or were dead

• 1:47:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  or in jail. And the ones who started companies started big companies. And the ones who, you know, made it through the chute, because, you know, bearing levels of support at home and elsewhere, like they built really big things, like huge companies. Like part of our staff here recruited from like DC and like these action sport companies that are like huge companies. Those were started by like kids we knew.

• 1:48:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  And so there was always this model embedded in my mind that like, yeah, there was Apple Computer, there was Steve Jobs nearby, but that wasn't really my, my proclivity, like tech. But like, if you want to build something like, oh yeah, you want to make a movie, you film your friend skateboarding. This was before, you know, camera phones. So I realized a few years ago, like, oh yeah, like building a podcast, we like set up cameras and like, let's go, like, and like, get a team together and let's do this. But I think for a lot of the world, this feels very much out of their reach. And yet they hear about it and you can learn about it all day from Hormozzi or from whoever online. And so there's this gap between what people are being told they can do, and I believe actually can do, but then how they're spending their time.

• 1:48:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:48:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then that's just stating the obvious. But so how do you embed in people's minds that the ultimate experience in life at the level of personal life, family, learning and business is to create something?

• 1:48:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you can still consume stuff.

• 1:48:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:48:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, but how do you embed that into people's mindset? Because I feel like this is, I'm a bit of a patriot, like this is what this country was built on. It was the idea like, I like cars, I'm going to start a manufacturing plant. Funds are good, but they could be better. I'm going to make better ones. Like this attitude has been challenged in recent years. And I'll just say one more thing about this, in particular, because of the emphasis on tech and AI. For many people, they hear tech and AI, not me. And they think of the five or six guys, mostly guys, and they go, God, like, the, the, the press has cast them as bad people.

• 1:49:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:49:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  These are bad people. This was not the way that Jobs and Bill Gates were cast early on. They were like nerds and designers and like these, this is not the picture. So I think now people hear builder, AI, motivation, learning, Alpha School, and they go, oh shit, you know, we have to become like tech nerds.

• 1:49:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's no place for humanity in this. I can't build things. And then they feel overwhelmed. And I think, and so I'm casting out a kind of a picture. It's not a specific question. How do you get people past consumerism to really internalize that they can build something? And how would somebody not at Alpha School start to internalize some of this stuff?

• 1:50:09Speaker 00

  Right. Perfect stuff. And one is, and I'll, I'll hit the kids first, but then we'll talk about Alpha, which is if you talk to Alpha parents, they're like, there is this impression, robot terminator, Alpha, you know, AI.

• 1:50:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is divorced from humanity. I got one, I got one, you know, it's, it's not.

• 1:50:27Speaker 00

  And if you ask the moms at Alpha School, they're like, this is the most socialization rich human environment that's unlocking my child's potential that could be done. And it's not because of tech and AI and all of this. It's because of the guides, the humans, the culture, the building and.

• 1:50:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  The guides are the human teachers.

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, these are the teachers.

• 1:50:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:47Speaker 00

  We couldn't call them teachers because they're not teaching academics. We had a hundred thousand people apply for our roles. We're getting the best ex-teachers. We also get people like world's best athletes, best coaches, if you're great at motivating kids. And so we get a range of them, but yes, our guides and coaches are what the role of teachers in a normal place or normal school. But they don't do academic teaching because the AI gives good lessons for that. McKinsey Price just did a podcast with Wendy Kopp, founder of Teach for America, right? And, you know, the, the, the line is, teachers didn't become teachers to grade, seventh grade science quizzes. They became teachers to transform kids' lives, the human part, to

• 1:51:28Speaker 00

  develop humans. And at Alpha, our adults, our guides and coaches, that's what they do all day. They don't grade seven, grade science quizzes. Let the AI do that. What our guides do and why teachers became them is spend time developing humans. Run them through the struggle fails, supported by a caring adult loop that we talked about earlier. We look at, and stepping back and let's hit AI generically, and then we'll go back to the one, AI generically, which is, I understand why the AI pitch is negative, which is if you put chatbots in most schools, kids will learn less. So I'd be like, wow, AI seems bad. Chatbots seem bad. The overall pitch of, hey, AI is going to be, make it efficient for some people. So

• 1:52:11Speaker 00

  we lay everybody off, but don't worry, because the world's going to end soon right after that. So there's not a positive view out there of AI. I completely agree. Now, when we look at education and how we want to transform education for a billion kids, we look at it as we need to make sure when we use AI and tech in our class and in our schools and with humans and development, it's a win for everybody. It's not a win-loss. It's the best time to be a five-year-old. Using this stuff is just part of the solution, but what it does is it unlocks the humanity. It gives the humans time. Kids get to love school. They get to learn more. Their parents get to see, wow, my kid is being held to high standards, but loves it and is struggling through it.

• 1:52:57Speaker 00

  The teachers, they love their job. That's why we have so many applying from schools because they're like, wow, this is why I became a teacher. I'm connecting with these kids. I'm motivating them. I'm helping them thrive. I'm unblocking their biggest constraints. I'm letting them see that they're so much greater than what they thought. Eighty-five percent of our kids are doing stuff even their parents thought was impossible, but not our guides and teachers. And so our whole loop for education is we have to make it better for everybody, not some win-loss or dystopian robots are taking over. That's not the reality, right? Nobody wants that. So that's the, the whole view when we talk about that. But when we talk about how do we take consumers and make them creators

• 1:53:39Speaker 00

  and builders and philosopher builders? The bigger picture on that is our education system was built to create consumers. Just fundamentally, a hundred years ago, we lined you up in a classroom and we told you to sit there and listen and write stuff down. You were being built for an industrial factory. The Prussian started, they're like, we need people who follow rules, who do what we're told, and we put enough knowledge in that they can do those jobs. And it was an industrialization of, of education to create industrial workers. And that was the, that was why it started and that is what we got. And we've created a system where that's all these kids, right? We put them in that system for 12 years. They're like, yeah, scroll, tick, that's the only fun thing I do all day.

• 1:54:23Speaker 00

  And, you know, or whatever it is, and then they get caught in the loop. We aren't giving them the chance to be builders. And they can watch a YouTube video, but back, as you said, everything, MIT is online and so is like all these entrepreneurs who started their own business. You can't watch a YouTube video and say, I can build a business. Any more than you can get your MIT degree that way. You need to be taught. You need to have workshops. You need to be with your friends and say, just like when I dropped out, I dropped out with my friends and we went and built a business. I did it during my school age years. We've normalized that at least in college, that you can drop out with a bunch of friends and build something, right? And build something significant. And back to what we do in these afternoons is our afternoons are the builder afternoons,

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  these life skills. We're going to make you climb rock walls. We're going to have you start food trucks, right? One of our workshops about character building was the key to my happiness is contributing to my community, right? That's one of, one of our values, one of our workshops. Every kid does it across all campuses. And so our Austin kids are like, Austin City Limits, right?

• 1:55:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, no, big music town.

• 1:55:29Speaker 00

  We're doing Alpha City Limits, right? So these are fifth, sixth graders. They're putting on their own music festival. First of all, they all learned how to play an instrument, had their own band. They went and raised.

• 1:55:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's almost as if Jack Black and School of Rock.

• 1:55:42Speaker 00

  Totally. School of Rock.

• 1:55:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like hijack.

• 1:55:43Speaker 00

  No, make everybody watch.

• 1:55:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's one of my favorite movies in part because also the musical references that he describes on the chalkboard.

• 1:55:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:55:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  You should watch it again. Yeah. I mean, he has great taste, obviously, like very like specific knowledge in certain genres. And I'm like, okay, he really knows his music because they weren't like the generic things. But the amazing thing about that movie was the energy he brought to the work, right? Flipping the switch on for these kids by identifying their unique abilities, but also pushing them through the keyhole sometimes of like their lack of percept that they could do hard things. It's such a more important movie than it appears to be on the front side. There's so much there.

• 1:56:19Speaker 00

  But just imagine, everybody watches School of Rock.

• 1:56:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Speaker 00

  It's like, oh, I wish my school would do that. Well, why don't they? Because they're like, oh, we have to teach academics. No, we teach academics 10 times faster, gets done in the morning. Now we have the afternoon and Jack Black, if you want to teach one, come, you know, come on in. But, you know, our guide is Jack Black in that movie saying, we're going to launch a music festival. And he sent the kids out and they had to raise $25,000 selling, you know, sponsorships. The kids afterward, they're like. Mr. Limont, can you believe companies will pay a thousand dollars just to have their name on the

• 1:56:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  They're learning a thing about advertising.

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  And then literally, yeah, and then by the end, they're like, we could have charged way more. Right? And so they're learning, they're out there doing it, right? They're learning instruments. They're putting a band together and they're doing this at fifth grade and they're like, oh, I can do this. And both whether I'm learning an instrument, whether I'm learning to sell sponsorships, whether I'm calling bands and saying, will you play? And are they showing up?

• 1:57:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  So cool.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  That building concept, we should have all kids doing that. There was a weak form of that in shop class, those kinds of things, but we now can do that so much more.

• 1:57:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  We had a sadistic shop teacher. I mean, I, you know, like had all these rules about like, you had to clean up your own blood. If you, you know, you hurt yourself on the band. So everyone knew this guy, Mr. Mitchell, like the coin flip of teachers is like, is, and that's a darker example, but, um, but we had auto shop at our school. Nobody went. This was Gunn High School in Palo Alto. Like it was considered like, oh, why would you do that? Right? You're in Silicon Valley.

• 1:57:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  It wasn't relevant. I learned how to balance tires. That was kind of cool. Not relevant nowadays, but it's kind of cool to get under a car.

• 1:57:52Speaker 00

  But no, back to, we have a life skill. They have to learn how to change a tire. Right? Physical, we can't keep them on screens all day. We minimize their screen time to two hours. And then you're like, yeah, you know what you're going to do in the afternoon? You're going to change a tire.

• 1:58:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Could I ask you about biology and medicine? Cause I'm heavily biased here.

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  But when I was in middle school, I dissected a frog.

• 1:58:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  It wasn't my favorite biology experiment, but getting in there and seeing things and, and feeling things with your hands.

• 1:58:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:58:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is a very important experience in becoming a biologist. And when you said the microscope changed everything, and I totally agree. The ability to sit at a microscope and you're the one panning around and to actually stain cells or do a dissection of a brain or this kind of thing.

• 1:58:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's a lot of tactile learning inside of what we think are often just intellectual pursuits.

• 1:58:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:58:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  So do they get the opportunity to do experiments?

• 1:58:39Speaker 00

  Totally. Yeah.

• 1:58:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Cause it's an amazing thing to see a brain and it looks all white and gray. And then you, you put on a particular label. You explain to somebody, doesn't matter what age, what it's labeling, and then they get to see, and it lights up like artwork. And you go, you have these inside your brain and here's what they do. There's something completely different about that experience than watching it on a screen.

• 1:58:58Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:58:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:59Speaker 00

  And so back to that, one is, yes, part of what we're doing is we're redoing. Normal, you know, dissection biology classes are boring and kids aren't excited or chemistry classes or whatever labs you do. And we're trying to build next generation ones. So if you have ideas about how we can make this 10 times better than whatever, any lab you ever went into.

• 1:59:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  What the upper limits are, right? I mean, you gave me like a carte blanche. I said, we put channel options into some live animals and shine light on their heads. And their behavior will change.

• 1:59:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't know if you get permitted to do that.

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  We'll have to go see what level we can do. But back to that kind of stuff, you know, back to engaging kids around experiments, you know, and just science in general. Like Mark Rober, right?

• 1:59:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  Like he's doing, so we're working with him on some things where we're like, that is what science needs to be, which is, you know, think, go do 11 minutes in your app to make sure, cause you can watch all the Mark Rober videos, you're still not going to pass the test. Cause you haven't actually learned it to mastery. So we're like, spend the 11 minutes, get it to mastery, but then spend 45 minutes, the rest of the class, doing his experiment and his project, cause it's awesome and it's engaging and kids will do both. And it's combining those. One of the things we have in labs is, you know, when you first get into labs, what you're trying to do is sort of two dimensions, which is, how many steps can you do in a row? Can you follow instructions? And then what's your margin of error? We'll start the kids early with like baking and we'll be cooking and we're like, okay, can you follow?

• 2:00:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Most of biology is just following.

• 2:00:20Speaker 00

  Right? And can you follow the instructions? And what's your margin of error? Right? And did you put the sugar instead of the, the salt? If you do a cooking one with third graders and second graders, they're going to start to be like, oh, I'm now getting the skills of labbing. Then we have one, our chemistry one that we start, uh, that all the sixth graders start is called, um, PFX, special effects. So, you know, we have videos online where you can see it, but they're everything from light your hand on fire, using things to creating like, the plate glass that you can walk through, you know, a special effect glass that's safe. It's super hard. It's like a 40 step process and the margin of error at any step is very low. And kids will sit there and it'll be, they'll, they'll start it at one o'clock, you know, and they'll be like, oh, it'll be done by school.

• 2:01:05Speaker 00

  At six o'clock, they've, they're like, I, I'm, I'm not going home, mom. I got to finish this. One, because they want the Instagram or whatever. They want to post on Snapchat of them breaking through it or whatever. But the kids get totally engaged and learn all the fundamental skills. And to your point, you can build ones for any subject, physics, biology, chemistry, that engage kids where they're like, this is awesome. I love to do this. You can do it on computer science too, on, on that dimension. Go build things back to being builders. Kids naturally want to build stuff. You want to teach kids, you know, how to program or use AI. You can say, let's go build a music video. Let's build a movie trailer and they can now do that.

• 2:01:43Speaker 00

  At a quality level that couldn't be done before. There was one where we have a hackathon on the weekend about learn how to use cursor. Totally voluntary. Kids would come in at six o'clock on a Friday, work through the weekend on this hackathon. It's all dimensions. We had a set of girls who were building one that was a love island, social thing. So when they were all watching it, they could all chat online, you know, while they're doing it. So they're, they're building projects they like, but they're learning actually all the skills of, okay, I can, I can be builder. And this would be a set of, of, of students who normally wouldn't do programming. And so when you engage around what kids like, you make it hard. They're coming in on a weekend. One of them showed me, if you, you know, and it's like 10 o'clock on a, on a, it was Saturday night. It was 10 o'clock Saturday night.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  She's a junior. She's like, all my friends are out at a party and they're all jealous of what I'm building in here. Back to doing hard things and having fun, cause they were building stuff that was significant. They were also working on an app that was, how do we show a hundred million teens? The key to their happiness is contributing to their community. And so it's an app that builds that daily habits of contributing. Now their special hook that made them all wanting to work hard on this was influencers are, are contributing and helping them. So they're able to spend time with the influencers, the influencers get reach, but they're like, wow, I'll go, I'll go work on these things. And so when you think about what do we need to do in school and development of kids?

• 2:03:08Speaker 00

  And what does AI letting kids learn? Once kids can learn 10 times faster, the question every parent, every education minister has to say, what are the skills we want our family or society to have going forward? And so we believe this whole concept of being a builder, these life skills that we teach entrepreneurship and storytelling, financial literacy. That's where we should spend our kids' time. And by doing it, you actually see these kids thrive. They totally unlock. They love it.

• 2:03:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Incredible.

• 2:03:40Speaker 00

  And that's the opportunity we have, because we, we have built an educational system to your point that generates consumers. It forces them down that path. We all know we don't want it. Like this isn't good. We're on a bad path here. And now we have the opportunity to say, okay, here's a new one, right? Here's a new, different way to, to do that. And the capability of your child, like back to what I was told 10 years ago, we are limited. We as parents are limited because we went through this terrible system. It's, we're fish in water. What we went through, our parents went through, our grandparents went through, it didn't help move the frontier. It didn't develop kids to the utmost potential. It's why in sports, more than anything we do in America does that?

• 2:04:22Speaker 00

  Music, the same way, right? We have these stars who get developed. We just don't do that broadly in schools and we, we have enough time now. The name of our product is time back. Give kids their time back. And so we've used up a hundred years of six hours a day in homework. We have this new magic that makes it 10 times faster. So that it only takes a couple of hours. You've given kids their time back, which is, is the actual biggest motivator. And then once they have their time back, how do we want to spend it? Right? How do we want to help these kids become builders and creators who learn the skills that we think? These are the things that you need to do to thrive in the world. There's a fourth grader in our New York campus. She's a fourth grader. She loves quantum mechanics.

• 2:05:07Speaker 00

  And so she started a podcast called Quantum Platens. And she's using it to go find the other kids who love quantum mechanics.

• 2:05:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I love it.

• 2:05:15Speaker 00

  Right? Back to that thriving. She is learning. She's thriving to be able to work with that. And you can teach them how to be a creator as part of it and do it productively. You get the best of both worlds.

• 2:05:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Hi, everyone. I'm delighted to share that I'll be hosting three live events very soon. I should say our past live events all sold out, so make sure you get your tickets for these events soon. The first live event is in New York City at the iconic Radio City Music Hall on September 17th. The second live event will be held in Los Angeles at the Dolby Theater on October 8th. And the third live event is in San Francisco at the Masonic on October 28th. At all three of these events, I'll be discussing topics from my new book, Protocols. And my favorite part, taking questions live directly from you, the audience. To get tickets, please go to hubermanlab.com/events. That's hubermanlab.com/events. I hope to see you at one of these live events. Who knows? Maybe even several.

• 2:06:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  And as always, thank you for your interest in science. I have a question throughout today's conversation, it almost seems that boys and girls

• 2:06:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  are equally supported by this program, like, like maximizing potential, whatever you want to call it. I haven't looked at the latest data on, on the discrepancy of male, female performance. But when Scott Galloway was on the podcast or you flip on today's New York Times or you actually can look at even like a Fox News thing, right? And you're going to hear about this gender gap in performance. And it almost seems like that's been eliminated at Alpha School. Is that true?

• 2:06:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, back to the frontier and wherever it is, most of these are, uh, self-imposed constraints that, at least in the framework of K-12, don't exist on whatever stuff. So if I have ADHD boys who now aren't doing as well as the girls on one dimension, sort of broadly. When you only take two hours a day, you know what happens to ADHD? Wow. What happened to it? They're building all afternoon. You know, there's a set of things, which is one, you take those kids, those guys, kids can lock in for two hours in the apps. Like we always tell the parents, when they come in, they have their ADHD diagnosis. We're like, can he play a video game for 25 minutes straight? And they're like, yes. And I'm like, well, we do 25 minute Pomodoro blocks. It'll be fun.

• 2:07:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. This is all mark of ADHD. The kids can focus if it's engaging.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  If it's engaging. And so we just make it engaging and motivating. If on the worst case, like in our sports academy, they run them before the apps. Fairly, you know, and so you can take any second, third grader and engagement and solve that. And then they're doing things in the afternoon. They love. One of our Alpha X projects, um, Rhett, he would just crush his apps in one day. And then he went, he was a mountain biker. And then he went and well, he built a bike park outside of Austin. It was the best bike park in Texas, like Texas Monthly is writing it up. Actually, one of the Walton family members told me, we saw his bike park that motivated us to go build one, you know, here in Bentonville. He went down, SpaceX hired him to build one on Starbase. So it took this kid who's like, he was not into just sitting in the books all day, right?

• 2:08:18Speaker 00

  And all that stuff. But then all of a sudden, he's like, okay, I can spend the time building. And so all these things, different discrepancies of where they're good and where they're not. And I believe as you unlock their potential, you'll see these differences go away. Because the kids are all just doing much better. Now, I don't know, maybe we move the frontier out and there's deltas when we, when we get out there. Yes, right now, whether you're male or female into alpha, your kid, if they're performing here, is going to perform here, wherever it is. And let's talk broadly, here's, let's go to another dimension, just about reach, which is selection effects, and this only works with rich kids and, and all of that. Which is, in education, there's a concept that I think is really poison

• 2:09:02Speaker 00

  and why we have trouble innovating in education. Which is, there's a view that you must serve everybody all at once for free. Like, just anything you do in education, no matter who it's for, they're like, I'm going to come up with a counter example where it doesn't work for everybody all at once for free. And that's not how products are developed. There's no venture capitalist in Silicon Valley who, when you're presenting, said, all right, I've been telling you about the product, but here, I promise you, I won't release it until it serves everybody all at once for free. You would never get funded, that, that just, it doesn't work that way. Whether it's the roadster to the Model S, you know, to the Model 3, to what'll be 20 cent robotaxis, you have to move through a cost curve.

• 2:09:47Speaker 00

  You find a market where it works, and then you expand the radius of that market. You know, and why do we start? So we started a high-end private school, so Alphas, an expensive private school. Now, back to this concept, everybody dismisses our academic results. Oh, selection effects, but we have a very different view on it. Which is, you know who doesn't? Parents don't dismiss it, that's why everybody's coming to the school and we have such demand.

• 2:10:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  It makes the current education system seem either completely deprived or partially deprived, right? Yeah, but that's, but that to me is

• 2:10:20Speaker 00

  Well, I think even taking a steel man, there's a lot of educators who are trying to fix education.

• 2:10:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Calculators faster for a lot of things than what people were doing on pen and paper. Both are valuable.

• 2:10:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I think any new technology, which is really what this is, it takes time.

• 2:10:32Speaker 00

  It, it takes time, and, but here's, here's how we look at what we've done is, using technology. We didn't build a robotaxi that just works on a test track. We literally have a, a robotaxi, right? Our system that beats F1, that wins F1 races. We are competing against the best schools in this country, the best students in the country, the best teachers in this country, right? The best systems. Our 1,400 freshman year, we're doing 2X in two hours, but our benchmark of 2X is given your percentile. So our top one percentile kids are learning twice as much in only two hours a day as other top one percentile kids are learning all day, right? So we benchmark and built, I want to go against the best educational system.

• 2:11:17Speaker 00

  It's not just rich kid, selection effect, which is, I didn't say I'm going to go compete with IMG, which is $100,000 plus tuition, the sports academy, who doesn't do good academics. I'm like, no, I want to go against the best schools, right?

• 2:11:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, that's how you isolate the variable of what you're doing specifically that's working.

• 2:11:33Speaker 00

  Correct. So build that, now, our answer is how do we get that broadly? And so, you know, the, the American educational system today, because of how it's built and how it's structured, the single biggest indicator of your performance is your family income. You can predict somebody's test scores, basically.

• 2:11:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not IQ?

• 2:11:50Speaker 00

  IQ is a second effect within, you know, but it's a secondary effect within that. Then with IQ, the second one, once you get to the next level, it's IQ and big five conscientiousness are the two. Which is, IQ, you get more working memory slots, so if you're put in material that's too hard and stuff, you can struggle through it easier. And then big five conscientiousness is interesting, which is, you know, our system, our educational system, isn't a mastery-based system, it's time-based. You got an 80%, you got a B, you're moving up the next grade level. Conscientiousness is, you know, the concept of you're sort of a natural grinder. And so you do all the problems on the problem set, you do all the problems in the back of the book. You are basically implementing a mastery system for yourself.

• 2:12:34Speaker 00

  And so you are implementing a mastery system. So if you have high IQ and your big five conscientiousness, those are the people who thrive in the traditional education system. High IQ people who don't have conscientiousness, those are the people who don't thrive. Even, they're always like, ah, he's smart and she's smart, but, you know, whatever.

• 2:12:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  And maybe I'm just extrapolating from a few examples, but you see that a lot in wealthy families with smart kids that had enough exposure to good conditions early on and then just kind of like, blow it off. Like, you left school, I'm not saying that was you, actually don't know your background at all in the family you grew up, except what you've told us, but when you left, you went into like, fifth gear.

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  It wasn't as if you left and like, were like, I'm going to travel the world, which is an interesting thing to do, but like, you built something immediately at full.

• 2:13:23Speaker 00

  That's why I left, and that's what I wanted to go do. But back to this, this is where it's interesting, which is motivation is the piece, right? If you, if you have all the skills, but you don't have motivation, it doesn't matter. And our system, when we wake up, we're like, well, I have to solve, if I have to get this to a billion kids, I can't build a system that's based on income, IQ, and big five conscientiousness, right? That's, I'll just rebuild our current system. And so, the first part is, on IQ, if I give you a lesson that's at your level, you can learn it. If you're in seventh grade, and I give you seventh grade lessons when you need fourth, you can't learn it. But if I give you the fourth grade lesson, you can learn it. The way US Common Core is designed is for people to learn it, right?

• 2:14:07Speaker 00

  It is actually the mental, the conceptual leaps aren't that big, so that everybody can learn it. So, when you think through eighth grade, I can get everybody through eighth grade if I give them material at the right level. And so that solves your IQ issue of learning it. Second, I need you to do it, right? I need you to go to mastery, I need you to grind through it. And I'm going to solve that with motivation. Whatever motivation I need, you got sports in the afternoon, grind through those lessons first, kid. I got to pay you, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do what I need to supplement that you don't have big five conscientious naturally, that you're not grinding naturally. And then on the income side, the income side is just, are you designing your product for somebody who can afford it?

• 2:14:50Speaker 00

  So Alpha is expensive, but we're going to be in, you know, public schools this year, where we're designing for, we spend about $20,000 on average. I'm, we're in schools that, 19.5 is one of them, and 24 is another. And so we're designing our workshops in the afternoon, actually, for that budget, right? Sports is actually one of our cheapest, right? We have a thousand, over a thousand kids who are getting it for free because there's a voucher system where we have to solve that thing for less than $20,000 a kid. And sports is actually cheaper because fields are cheap, right? There's CapEx, but then there's no off X, right, to your, your annual cost. And a coach is used to managing 30 kids, right? And I can manage a team of 30, so I can hit your cost target too.

• 2:15:32Speaker 00

  And so, when I think of the US educational system, we absolutely can, but you have to redesign the whole school day. It's not, it, and I want to be clear, you can't throw ed tech in, you can't take our time back and throw it into a school, it's not going to work, because you haven't solved any of the other problems. And so ed tech is not a magic, you know, it's not a silver bullet. We literally have to say in America, we want this new thing. We want our kids to thrive, we want them to love school, we do want them to learn 2X, but we want to teach them all these life skills and make them builders in the afternoon, and we're willing to redesign the school day for it. So some of these public schools that are going out, I wasn't able to convince the superintendent to go to two hours, but they're going to do three in the apps. The superintendent's like, he hates ed tech, and he's just like, I don't really believe this, but okay.

• 2:16:15Speaker 00

  He saw enough of our results to say, let's try it. But it's like, I want the kids in three hours. But then the afternoon workshops, right, are alpha-like workshops, designed for their constituency, their price point. And so, our goal is, we can get it out, we can break these links. But back to selection effects, I believe you have to design your product for your customer. And so let's take our, you know, some of the different schools we have. We have the sports academy school. If you don't like sports, it doesn't work.

• 2:16:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 2:16:45Speaker 00

  Now, your family income doesn't matter if I've designed it for the right price points, because I'm going to give you lessons at the right level, and you're going to be motivated, and that's independent of income. And we have a gifted talent at school. It's the one place we actually test cognitively, you have to be top 10% cognitive. But we also say, when I say, what would make you love school more than vacation? You're like, more academics. It's like 5% of the market, right? One in 20 kids is like, I want more. And we're like, we're going to design a school for you, and we're going to crush you with academics, right?

• 2:17:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  God bless them.

• 2:17:17Speaker 00

  Because they love it.

• 2:17:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, no, I grew up around some kids like that, they're amazing.

• 2:17:20Speaker 00

  My youngest daughter's the opposite, my oldest daughter, like, she was reading calculus books for fun. She's at Stanford, she's like, oh, I'm going to get my masters in while in undergrad, you know, I need more school. You know, she's an English, math, double major, she's just like, more, more, more.

• 2:17:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  She's hungry for it.

• 2:17:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was, she's, she's not me, you know, she's not dropping out, she's not doing the minimum, she's doing the max, because she loves it. Schools are communities, socialization matters. Like, putting those GT kids around each other, I mean, they build on each other, right? They see what, you know, the number one motivator to get rid of a block, it's actually not the guy as the biggest one. The number one thing that convinces kids they can do something is watching their classmates do it.

• 2:18:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is huge in athletics, I mean, I don't want to take it back to a trivial example, but like, being around people that are much, much better at whatever sport you're in, like, you just push yourself harder. And I, I will say, like, being a postdoc at Stanford years ago, it was the first time I looked around the entire room, and like, everyone is at least submitting their papers to like, the top-tier journals, and they deserve to be there.

• 2:18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you just push harder, you, you think harder, you don't just work longer. You actually think much more carefully about what you decide to do and what not to do. That's a big piece of it. On the backdrop of all this, I just, this is not a pushback, but it's something that I, I imagine a number of people are thinking, and part of my job is to reflect that. At risk of editorializing too much, but I hit 50, so I think I can do it a little bit. I've lived in this country my whole life. There seems to be a kind of cultural stance that has been around a lot more in recent years.

• 2:18:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which is if somebody didn't suffer and have disadvantage, we don't really want to see them succeed. We're not, I'm not saying people have a problem with it per se, but if you look at the stories that are celebrated, they are stories of the underdog, right? That's like an American tale, right? You know, and we have many of them that we could select from. But there almost seems to be a pushback against people who had things mostly right.

• 2:19:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:19:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Getting to their, their frontier. I realize that's not your stance. That's not the stance at all that Alpha School takes. In fact, it takes quite the opposite stance, which is let's develop everyone to their frontier.

• 2:19:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:19:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I think the big question here in a lot of people's minds is probably this everyone piece. You're saying we have to start here before this can wick out to the entire educational system.

• 2:19:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:19:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Totally understand and support that. But I, I think there's this opportunity, I think we have here in this discussion to embed in people's minds that like seeing somebody succeed is not necessarily taking from anyone else, especially if the way they got there can be exported to anyone. Like the specific circumstances that we've tended to focus on in this country have been the outliers, right? The spud webs and, and these are remarkable stories. But there's not a lot that's exportable about that story, except if you really want it and work really, really hard, you can have it. And, and so we've sort of sold this myth that anyone can hit, hit the frontier or their frontier. And I do think that if people hear the cost, the sort of that, even the positivity, which I love,

• 2:20:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  but then again, I'm born and raised in Palo Alto, California. But for the person who's listening, thinking, okay, like, how do I ensure that my kid someday?

• 2:20:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:20:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Hopefully gets access to something like this. And it's not just a financial barrier. It's also a, it's a mindset barrier.

• 2:20:40Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 2:20:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  So I'm not asking you to be politically correct. I'm just saying, you know, because this is a real thing.

• 2:20:46Speaker 00

  No, it's a hundred percent.

• 2:20:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  And this is like, you're an Austin, you're a successful guy. I'm here in California. I've had a wonderful life with some hardship, but like the notion now, at least at the public, yeah, sort of newspapers, television, et cetera, is like, it's only if you had nothing and you made it.

• 2:21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  That we're cool with it. Otherwise, success is actually kind of looked down upon right now, which is its own problem. So how do you think about that? And how do you tell the kids coming through Alpha School? Like, here's how to be a successful person in the world, which is its own set of skills.

• 2:21:19Speaker 00

  So there's two parts, which is we absolutely have to get this to everybody. I put a billion dollars in to say, let's make sure I have the resources so that it's not just for, you know, high end private school kids and rich kids that we can get it out. And it's, it's why we can sit and say, yes, we'll be the biggest school with kids under $65,000 income in Texas next year. And those kids are going to learn at the rate that private school.

• 2:21:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think you should repeat that once more. So people, you'll be the largest school with kids with, with less than $65,000 family income.

• 2:21:50Speaker 00

  Yes. So.

• 2:21:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's impressive.

• 2:21:51Speaker 00

  So, and that's our sports academy, right? That's the product they wanted. So let's talk about sports academy as an example, which is back to designing it, right? And we talked about it. Sports is actually one where you can design for lower cost because fields are cheap for workshops. They teach well, coaches are used to teaching bigger teams, right? And kids are totally motivated by it and they love it, right? And so it's a magical, to give you an example, so Texas vouchers allow people in Texas, either you have a learning disability or you're under $65,000 income. You were able to get a voucher, not all of them, they ran out. They put a billion dollars in and, and they ran out. But we put up a website that said, you know, Texas Sports Academy.

• 2:22:31Speaker 00

  On January 1st, when the vouchers opened to 100 days later, we had over 120,000 families in Texas say, if I get a voucher, I want that, I want Texas Sports Academy for my kid. Now we got a little over a thousand vouchers, which is the largest voucher recipient in the state. These are all families who are under $65,000 income. And their kids love sports. Those kids are going to be on the same academic system at Alpha, super high end private school. And they will be learning two X in two hours. Their academic achievement coming in is below what Alpha is. They aren't at the same rate. They will be learning at the same rate.

• 2:23:14Speaker 00

  They will be learning faster than standard private schools. So you will put them in the system, it's free, and they will be learning in two hours. They'll be on the best academic system in the country. And we believe we can expand that across the country. There will be public schools where this is released, where if you're in those public schools, in the two hours, you will be on the Alpha system, Alpha time back. And your afternoons are going to be our workshop creator builder ones that we've all talked about. Now they'll be a little different because you have a $20,000 budget instead of Alpha's, you know, 40 plus thousand dollar budget, but there's still going to be fantastic life skill workshops, right? Forty, 20 grand's plenty, right? 20 grand a year, you can make a 10 year old like love school.

• 2:23:59Speaker 00

  And then for the sports guys, they'll be on that program. Our job is to make that work. Our job, we have to prove it. So we signed a deal with MIT because nobody believes us, obviously, because it's all too fantastical. And so MIT, you know, Blueprint Labs, right? Their Nobel laureate group is going to sit here and be like, let's run the tests, let's run the RCTs. Let's show that this works, let's show where it doesn't work and, and get that data out. So then we can start expanding this to everybody. There's 55 million kids in America and we need to get it to everybody. We're on that path. We believe we're going to have a bunch of data over the next year that shows it. We'll have the sports academy one is like the big driver that everybody really wants. The other one we're going to have is this GT squared, where we're going to make 100,000 kids,

• 2:24:44Speaker 00

  you know, MIT eligible by middle school, academically eligible by middle school. And it's going to be rural kids, it's going to be available to everybody across the country. You know, that program for those who love school, more academics makes me love it. They'll, that's like four hours in the apps instead of two. So those things will be free. They'll be able to be paid for, with vouchers and different programs. There's actually philanthropies who will, who'll do it as well. And then we're going to be putting it in public schools. Now it is going to take 20 years to change a whole educational system. I don't want to say it's overnight.

• 2:25:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  It would be a false advertising to say this is coming to you tomorrow.

• 2:25:16Speaker 00

  Correct. Now, but we're working on ones to get it out there as quickly as can. And I'll give you the best one that's going to come, sort of quickest at the biggest scale. We have one of the other schools, we talked about how we have that founder's school for the entrepreneurs in our sports school. We're also opening schools in Africa. This is one where we're like, they have a price point, I have to get down to a thousand dollars, right? Less than a thousand dollars. So that's going to take even longer and harder, but we're starting to work on that. And we have a bunch of Alpha high school kids who are like, okay, we know what Alpha is here. How can we go learn more and spend a year abroad figuring that out?

• 2:25:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  So the students are building a school.

• 2:25:53Speaker 00

  Yes, in Africa.

• 2:25:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Awesome.

• 2:25:55Speaker 00

  And they're like, oh, we have to bring in solar and Starlink's and dig a well. And the community is very different. When they signed up for the school, back to hard things, we made them sign a thing that said, I understand this will be the hardest year of my life. But back to the key to my happiness is contributing to my community. They're all in. One of my biggest problems was I have an Alpha middle schooler who's like, I want in. And her parents are like, you know, she's too young, like we don't, don't let her in. Like get her to wait till she's at high school. But then back to getting this access out, one of the things we have is, you know, there is a group of the best video game developers in the world who've been building a world-class video game, not like all the ed tech video games that have been out there.

• 2:26:40Speaker 00

  It'll literally, it's a team who's built the best video games in the world. And they are building one on, take these learning science concepts that we all talked about in time back. And imagine embedding that with a game. And the economic model for that is it's going to be available for 500 million kids. And it's starting with like third through fifth grade, reading and math. And then it'll expand to the full, you know, curriculum through 12th grade. But any kid in America after school.

• 2:27:11Speaker 00

  Is going to be able to use this and learn as fast as if you were in the best private school in the country. And it's going to be so back to solving motivation. Why do we do things like with influencers or video game developers is I have to solve the motivation problem to get them to engage through the material. And Alpha Kids have been like interns and testing it. They're like, dude, this is so fun. I'm not a gamer, but they're like, everybody's going to play this Mr. Limont. And it's built where it'll be free. So it'll be free to learn for 500 million kids in the world. Kids can play it after school. So even if your school thinks ed tech's terrible and all the stuff, you'll be able to use it at home. And you're going to love it so much, you're going to use it instead

• 2:27:54Speaker 00

  of whatever video game you play after school, except it's going to put you top 1% academic performance.

• 2:28:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing.

• 2:28:00Speaker 00

  And these are the kind of things when we talk about unlocking kids' potential and putting this all together and why we're so optimistic about it. And it does, it takes a lot of capital. They just had to raise hundreds of millions of dollars of capital to build this kind of stuff. We are at a renaissance in education. It's the best time in history to be a five-year-old. And every parent's going to be able to sit and say, my kid will be able to thrive at levels I never expected, doing things that I couldn't do at their age. So we have an incredible optimistic view. And we believe that it's our job to, you know, build it and get it out to everybody.

• 2:28:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. What you've built and where you're taking it is truly incredible. And I say that both from the stance of somebody who loves learning, who also didn't, you know, well, had a period of floundering and then found the track. And when those gears switch on, it's a remarkable thing. And I can tell you want it for everybody.

• 2:28:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  And these kids sound incredible. The guides sound incredible. And I'm just very grateful to you for coming up with this, organizing the team. I realize you're part of a team that came up with this. I understand you're the principal. And for taking the time to come educate us about Alpha School, because what's more important, right? I mean, it sounds so cliche, right? But what's more important than like the neuroplasticity and learning of our species as they grow up and eventually replace us? Like, this is super, super exciting. So we'll keep tabs. We'll put links to all the things that are relevant to the general public. I also have to say, in listening to your previous podcast, I'm going to flatter you a little bit. I hope you're okay with that. You have a remarkable mastery of the learning data, the neuroscience. We didn't get into critical periods and stuff,

• 2:29:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  but you have a mastery of that. And dare I say, I'm not a psychologist, but you're super organized. But you also have this like, almost like childlike delight about these children learning, like it comes through. And I think that's, in my experience, that's perhaps the most important thing about any educator. The best teachers have mastery of the material.

• 2:29:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:29:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  But they also are looking at the material and what's happening with the students with the same kind of like awe and excitement as the first time they learned the material. So thanks for letting me and everyone else experience that today.

• 2:30:07Speaker 00

  Well, thank you very much. And to that point, I had a great career before I became principal four years ago. It was fantastic. The last four years have been the best years of my life. And watching these kids thrive, right? Back to your point of education. It is awesome. There is nothing more exciting. There's nothing more important, right, for a family or society than this. But as an individual, you know, and this is my appeal to everybody who's listening, which is if you want to come change education, I can promise you, this will be the most rewarding thing you do in your career. Like wherever you are, coming straight out of college, in college, after college, retired, wherever it is, this is the opportunity to spend time. And there's a lot of people who never went

• 2:30:50Speaker 00

  into education, right? These software, these game designers had never been in education before. We're pulling in the best people in the world who want to help and change this and come join the team because it's awesome.

• 2:31:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, your applicant pool just got bigger.

• 2:31:05Speaker 00

  Well, great. Thank you very much.

• 2:31:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Joe Limont. To learn more about Alpha School and the work they're doing, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have

• 2:31:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's

• 2:32:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols, in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right

• 2:33:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Joe Limont. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.