Ben Affleck

Where to even begin with Ben Affleck? In a true career-spanning conversation, Ben and Josh dive deep on his latest film ANIMALS, how feeling on the verge of extinction led to him directing, why JUSTICE LEAGUE was a low point in his career, and why he still defends GIGLI. Plus, a story about the actor that rejected GOOD WILL HUNTING, the truth about that GONE GIRL hat incident, why Ben would reprise his role as DAREDEVIL, & more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/happy #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip, the Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone.

• 0:23Josh Horowitz?

  Is there something about the Batman suit that like the, the, the low pitch, the growl comes? I mean, you have a deep voice anyway, but like every Batman has to do the, I'm Batman, like that you can't help it. Is that just go with the territory?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Because if you're like, I'm Batman, it just seems farcical, right? Like that's not cool.

• 0:39Josh Horowitz?

  I want to watch you bleed.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna watch you bleed and I'm Batman. Get away from me, I'm Batman.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 0:53Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to Happy Sad Confused. Today on the show, Ben Affleck is here, one of the greats, a legend, a writer, a director, an Oscar winner. He's Batman for God's sakes, and he has a new movie, Animals. We talk about all of it and much, much more. One of my favorite episodes, maybe of all time. I don't want to hype it up too much, guys, but this is a banger of an episode of Happy Sad Confused. Ben Affleck has been on the list for many years. And while I talked to him at the junkets and all that kind of stuff over the years, never did the deep dive with him and spent nearly an hour with Ben just the other day, talking about his directing career. His new film is Animals, it's on Netflix, check it out. It's him and Kerry Washington, Stephen Young, but also so much more.

• 1:36Josh Horowitz?

  This guy has all the stories and he's such a great candid conversationalist. We talk Good Will Hunting, we talk Batman, we talk Gone Girl, we talk about being offered a Star Wars movie, about nearly directing the Batman movie. There's tons and tons in this. He really lived up to everything I was hoping and more. I know you guys are going to dig this. I'm so happy it finally happened. Ben Affleck on Happy Sad Confused. Before we get to the main event though, quick reminder, as always, check out our Patreon for bonus content, for early access to our live events, all sorts of cool stuff. Patreon.com/happysadconfused. Supporting us over there helps us make more stuff over here. Okay, here we go, guys. No, no further ado. He speaks for himself and he says a lot in this one.

• 2:20Josh Horowitz?

  Enjoy my conversation with the one and only, and by the way, this was his last conversation of his press tour. So he let it all hang out. So thrilled it happened. Here's me and Ben Affleck. Enjoy.

• 2:32Josh Horowitz?

  Ben, you're doing the podcast.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I am, what a pleasure.

• 2:35Josh Horowitz?

  You're locked in the room. You can't get out for the next 45 minutes.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  I am stuck here now. Yeah, I know. And you know what? It doesn't even alarm me.

• 2:42Josh Horowitz?

  That's how, that's how good you're doing.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  It's how good my life is.

• 2:45Josh Horowitz?

  This is flying in the face of sad Affleck. This is no longer, he's happy Affleck.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Sad Affleck, you know, Affleck shows up all the time. Unfortunately, it's my, I feel like any, my kids are obsessed with like taking my picture and trying to find the funniest sticker to make out of it, the worst, the worst looking possible picture. But it's, what it's taught me is that I, that I think my sort of general demeanor appears to be depressed.

• 3:10Josh Horowitz?

  Resting Ben face is what?

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Resting Ben face seems, seems to be beleaguered or something, or maybe I'm just, I don't know. It's that thing of, um, you get a second, you kind of, oh, maybe my resting face does, it should be no surprise. Oh, they're resting.

• 3:24Josh Horowitz?

  We'll come back around to that. Let's talk animals and this great, I mean, this is literally the end of the press tour, by the way. Congratulations, you survived another one.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. It's, you know what? They've gotten, uh, to be much more interesting experiences because of this phenomenon, because of the preponderance importance and, and audience of a podcast principally, and some other kinds of more, you know, creative sort of like social media shows and stuff. But like, so that what used to be, you know, four days of, you know, 50 consecutive five minute interviews, repeat the exact same thing, which was a particular kind of hell. It's a very sort of, um, who wrote No Exit? Was it, you know, like very hellish sort of thing. Now you actually move around a little bit and you have longer conversations.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Like I was saying, where you have some context and you have the ability to talk. It's such an interesting thing. Like I was talking to somebody the other day and they were saying like, what do you think it means that we've gone, you know, in one direction with this like much shorter attention span?

• 4:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right, the Vine seven second thing.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Exactly, to this like, you know, a lot, much more long form thing. And it was sort of, obviously you have a different sized audience, like, so you're not, there is no more, oh, 30 million, 40 million people watch Carson or something.

• 4:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  But you do have like your dedicated millions of people that are listening to, you know, various podcasts and actually finding the time for, you know, something that's more in depth.

• 4:53Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and they're hopefully the hardcore folks. If they're investing 45 minutes or an hour in your conversation with me, that means they're, they're more likely to check out animals and be invested in what you do.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  If I can't make it sound interesting in 45 minutes, maybe it's not for you.

• 5:07Josh Horowitz?

  So this has been a very happy, good press tour. What was the hardest press tour you've ever had to endure in your career? Whether because of where you were, because of the film you had to kind of suck it up and promote?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I remember that the press tour for, I did a movie called Surviving Christmas. The press tour for that was really unpleasant, mostly because the studio had totally abandoned it and everybody knew it was a bomb. And it was kind of like, you just feel like you have to walk the plank. I'm like, hey, if you guys are going to pull all the ads, do I still have to go through with the, every single person who sits down and says, interesting movie. So you're in a real hole. It's like, well, how is this helping anybody?

• 5:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I've had a few of those. It's nice, also it's different when you direct a movie, you know? It's like, if you can't find stuff to talk about, I mean, that really is the, the standard for me to, for choosing something to direct. You know, you may act in something, you do eight, 10 weeks at the most these days, 12 maybe. And there can, there's a lot that you can find interesting and within a role for the period of time. But for directing, it's, it's, it's a year plus commitment of work. And then, you know, there's the expectation naturally, like if the director's not going to promote the movie, you know, you're going to, you'll do anything to promote a movie you direct and, or not anything, but you will do quite a bit of, quite a few interviews. And, and, you know, ostensibly it's because the, the movie has themes that you find really interesting

• 6:30Speaker 02

  and compelling and that are merit, you know, disgusting to some extent.

• 6:33Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and connecting that to, to animals, this is your latest directing offer and you're starring in it. I mean, what I find interesting about this is I feel like you're like luring them in with the kidnapping. Like, oh, it's good, you know, it's a crime drama, it's, it's the town. And like underneath it all, it's like a, like a Cassavetes, like dissection of a marriage, essentially.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the town was the same thing. You know what I mean? All the movies that I've made, I, I viewed from even going back to Good Will Hunting, you know, that I've written or that I've kind of created, I, I've consciously thought, well, you've got to like make, give the entrance some, the audience rather, some entrance, some reason to see the movie. And part of that is like some genre expectation, because you might, okay, you know, there's a shorthand around, I like a movie where, you know, there's kidnapping or horror movies or romantic comedies or whatever they are, because people do kind of have a sense of, uh, what the expectations are. And those conventions are quite useful in the sense that, you know, they're the guardrails that tell you whether, you know, whether you're hewing to the conventions or you're subverting the conventions.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  It's a common language with the audience, they can understand. And this notion that there's a bifurcation or a separation or a difference between movies of a genre and movies which are art movies or serious movies or interesting movies, I think is a real false dichotomy. Ostensibly, you know, I think it was T S Eliot who said something like, the plot of a play is just the meat that you throw the guard dogs while the playwright, you know, is the cat burglar that breaks into the subconscious of the house, right? Like, and I really think that's true. You, there, there needs to be a what's going to happen next urgency.

• 8:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Just because, you know, as Brando said, like an actor's only responsibility is not to bore the audience. You've got to engage and be mindful of the audience, but you don't have to pander. In fact, I think what you have to do is, is surprise the audience, right? Like somebody said, the ending has to be inevitable and surprising. And then while you've got the front brain worrying about, gosh, what's going to happen next? And who's going to do what? They may not be saying, gosh, they may be saying something, but they, the front, the, the subconscious is like, experiencing, you know, the stuff that is thematically interesting. In this case, as you mentioned, one of the themes is kind of what's, what constitutes a marriage? You know, how vulnerable are we? And, and in particular, this question of like,

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Or this, this, this, this sort of proposition that, you know, it's, it's somewhat counterintuitive since you want the person to fall in love with you, to, to, to show a person that you love, the aspects of yourself which you don't particularly like, or which they may not find appealing. However, what's really interesting to me is like, is that's sort of the ideal, like you could really be loved in a different way. If somebody, if you felt loved for, for all of that stuff.

• 9:22Josh Horowitz?

  All the ugliness and yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's a really profound rejection to be rejected, you know, in, for your sort of your true, truest self. And so one of the things I thought was really interesting about this movie was this is a married couple that does get to the point, if only because they kind of think their marriage is more or less over and they, they think they have nothing to lose, where they both go, you know what, fuck it, this is who I am. And you know what, in the, and the other one sort of does the same thing. And what I like about it, I don't exactly, you know, lay it out, but I think what's suggested there is that they actually have a very interesting, I mean, giving it away, but I, I think they actually find a kind of a marriage that really works for them.

• 10:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right. Can we take a step back and look at the directing career? Because it strikes me, it's been basically 20 years, 20 years ago, probably to almost to a date that you stepped on the set of Gone Baby Gone and launched this career as a filmmaker, six films in. First, like, where were you at? Like, if I'm doing the math of like your career at that time, I guess like Hollywood land had happened, was coming out that year, but you were, you were kind of like bouncing back, you were kind of reinventing.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I was, I think I was on the verge of extinction.

• 10:33Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was directing the way back in for you to kind of reinvent at the time?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, yes. And it was something that I wanted to do, but because of the nature of, you know, the sort of hand to mouth desperate nature of the psychology of being an actor, and I was just incapable of saying no to anything. So then I'm taking a job, I'm taking a movie. Well, I don't have time to be a director, right? And this is, and this is a, this is why I think Matt has not, Matt Damon has not directed, simply because he's been so consistently presented with opportunities to work with great directors as an actor, and he's never had this kind of space.

• 11:12Josh Horowitz?

  Like an 18 months to like over two years to say, yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  But I also, for me, it was, you know, it was, I mean, Surviving Christmas, like I had mentioned before, like it was pretty much a rap. I don't, I don't think I was going to be able to work. I was so uncool and so unsought after and so kind of, in fact, at one point I went back and looked at some of the press like around and about me from like 2003, 2004, I was like, so virile and nasty.

• 11:39Josh Horowitz?

  Well, they tore you down. They propped you up. They, they, they, as we well know.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  In a way now that even now would, would, would be viewed as irresponsible. Like, one of the real examples of, I don't know if it was the same time, but it was roughly the same time was like the way Britney Spears was treated during what was obviously like an episode of tremendous trauma and mental health issues. And there, there was this sort of gleeful celebration and kind of hideous schaden, cultural collective schadenfreude at, at, at, at what was going on with her. And I experienced something kind of similar, which was like, I mean, there were people who were saying like, you know, I mean, literally like, well, one hopes Ben Affleck is dead soon, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. And you think like now people at least would recognize, it wouldn't be, you know, that

• 12:23Speaker 02

  would be called bullying or something, you know, along those lines. But it's true that at the end of the day, you know, if you do a bunch of work that isn't good, you know, you, you, you may not have expected people to cheer your death, but you know, you're not going to work. And so part of the condition really, whether it was explicitly stated or not, for me to direct a movie was that, hey, or one of the selling points was I'm not in it, you know?

• 12:51Josh Horowitz?

  That was a plus.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Truly. Like, I remember thinking, I, I don't even want my credit to sort of be eye catching at the, because I don't want people to have a negative connotation. I mean, it's, it's one thing to be unknown. It's another thing to be like, no, we know who you are. We just don't like you.

• 13:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  It's like harder.

• 13:11Josh Horowitz?

  As a society's decided.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  And, and even the reviews for that movie were like, I remember one that was like, well, now I know what my hat tastes like. It was kind of, and it wasn't even a rave. It was just like, fine, this isn't the worst piece of shit you've ever seen. Cause it's like, it's, it's a little bit like the high school bullying thing, like people who hadn't even seen movies that were supposed to be, like you see it happening now frankly with Digger. Everybody wants to celebrate this bomb as if like, it's the most exciting thing that happened. And you think like, it's a pretty ambitious, interesting movie made by interesting people that have talent. And, you know, everybody wants to count the money, what it may, it lost or whatever. And to me, I just think like, if you punish movies that take risks, guess what you're going to get? A bunch of shitty homogenized movies.

• 13:55Josh Horowitz?

  Vanilla doubles.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Because if you cannot do something interesting without taking a big swing, and that means you're going to sometimes look bad. So yeah, for me, it was, I'm not going to be in it. And, and I got lucky because Miramax had been pried away from the Weinstein brothers at the time. Uh, I guess they went on to do the Weinstein company, but Disney had gotten rid of them. And they didn't have anybody kind of at Disney. And fortunately, I had pretty good relationships, like, because I've always been a pretty good team player and agreeable and that sort of thing. And this guy named Dick Cook, who was running Disney at the time, and we had a good relationship from, from Pearl Harbors, another movie that people sort of cheered. It was supposed to be a bomb, it was a very successful movie.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  But, you know, and Dick was willing to, you know, give me a chance with, because they just didn't have any Miramax movies, or at the time they didn't even have any executives. And they gave me, you know, a low budget to, to make a movie and, and let me do it. And, uh, you know, I, I, I kind of, it was just successful enough. Ironically, that came out at a period of time, I think the, the year of the most theatrical releases in history. Like, as I remember, we were in sixth place that weekend, and we were ahead of a movie with Meryl Streep and Reese Witherspoon. You know, it was like that competitive every weekend. And, uh, you know, I kind of got to live to fight another day,

• 15:23Speaker 02

  but, but I was keenly aware of the fact that if that movie didn't work, I, you know, it was really likely that, you know, I may have to find another line of work. Uh, and that was really scary.

• 15:33Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 15:41Speaker 00

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• 16:04Speaker 04

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• 17:01Josh Horowitz?

  And even though that one, you know, didn't make whatever, a gajillion dollars, it got the critical reception, it earned you the right to make the town, which ended up being a critical and commercial success. And that really set you off on the path of like where we are today.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yep. But if, if, if both, either of those movies hadn't worked, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

• 17:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Surviving Christmas DVD spectacular reunion.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Surviving Christmas, yeah, exactly. Surviving Christmas paycheck, Surviving Christmas, Gile, which is another, that was one that everybody, that was similar to, probably more.

• 17:37Josh Horowitz?

  A perfect storm of.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  It was like, yeah. And also, by the way, like a movie that didn't work, but not like the worst.

• 17:42Josh Horowitz?

  Not the worst.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  In fact, all the people that mocked and derided it, I think very few actually saw it. It was a function of like, we were so over, we're so exhausted by and overexposed by this Ben Affleck, Jennifer Lopez phenomenon, which itself was a function of being a tabloid story at a time when the tabloids really recognized they were, they had a much wider audience than they realized. And so there was this huge proliferation of these magazines. And so it seemed as if, you know, we were shoving ourselves down everyone's throats and we were wildly overexposed. So it was a lot of negative factors at work.

• 18:15Josh Horowitz?

  I'm just upset still that Martin Brest basically was run out of filmmaking. Like he has not made a film since he was a young man. He's still around like he could.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  That was, that was a real, a real, a real shame and a crime. Marty is a really good director. In fact, I probably learned how to direct from him and you know, you look at Beverly Hills Cop or Midnight Run.

• 18:36Josh Horowitz?

  Midnight Run's a perfect movie.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  I mean, he's, he's made so, it's sent of a woman. He, he was, he is such a good director. Uh, and I'm not sure why, I think he would have had the opportunity to do some stuff. Uh, had he been willing to like, after that, do something kind of like crummy and ordinary. But I got the sense that he, he just wasn't interested in doing that. Um, but yeah, it was, and I, I, I feel in some ways just, you know, partly responsible for that. I feel bad. I mean, look, that itself was a risky movie, not a particularly expensive movie, but a risky one and, and one that ended up really falling flat kind of loudly. And, and, um, that was just like, yeah, it was a shame. We lost on the, I think the really interesting movies that Marty might've made subsequent to that.

• 19:19Josh Horowitz?

  Can I ask you, I'm always fascinated by sort of like the, the what ifs, the, the, the projects that came and went. Um, and there's some directing opportunities that seemingly you had that just didn't work out. Did you go up for Man of Steel, what became Man of Steel? Did you meet with Chris Nolan and the team about potentially directing Superman?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  No, I did not meet with them about that. I did, but I was considering at a time directing a standalone Batman movie. Uh, after that and did not feel like ultimately I wanted to do that, but no, I didn't, I didn't, uh, and there haven't been too many movies that I turned down, whether as an actor or a director that I thought like, oh, that's a shame. There've been some that have been successful, some very successful, but I, particularly as a director, I just think like, ah, it's just somebody else is better for this, you know?

• 20:06Josh Horowitz?

  Correct me if I'm wrong though, didn't you come close to Star Wars? Wasn't Force Awakens like an opportunity that you basically passed on?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  They came to me and yeah, and asked me and, and hey, are you interested in this? And I, I don't know that that meant they weren't also like talking to JJ or other people, but, uh, I talked to those folks at the time and that was one where I just was like, again, I thought like, hey, I like Star Wars and I'm a fan, but I'm not the person to direct this movie. I just think someone else who has more passion for this and is going to do a better job. And that's not like some great self sacrificing thing, because I thought like, I don't know that I can make a great version of Star Wars or reinvent this. A lot of challenges to reinventing that. In fact, that you've seen played out, it's, hasn't been easy for them to reinvent that franchise. Some have done really well, some, and you've got this whole fan base that's got its own

• 20:55Speaker 02

  very strong opinions and, uh, I, yeah, it just was one that like, like plenty of scripts that I've gotten as a director. I've certainly got better scripts as a director than as an actor that I've turned down, but I just thought like, you know what? This, this would be, I, I don't think I can do it as well as somebody else. And I don't want to direct something that I don't feel like I have a chance to be really, really proud of.

• 21:17Josh Horowitz?

  I, I have had conversations over the years with a couple of the people that you almost worked with on the Batman film, Joe Manganiello, who was going to be Deathstroke, Bob Richardson, who was going to be your DP. I mean, that's an exciting prospect. Everything he does is remarkable. And I've heard like Joe tell me and others, like he compared it to the game in some respects. And Bob told me a lot of it was in Arkham. Is there anything about that, that you did love that like you, that?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Lots, uh, and I like playing that character, particularly the sort of older, broken, very much derived from, wholly derived from Frank Miller's, you know, book. That, that's what we were trying to do with that Batman versus Superman. But you know, the truth is that the experience of Justice League for me was so, so negative for lots of different reasons, some of which having to do just with where I was personally, some of which having to do with some of the tragedy that happened during that time. And also the fact that I really saw how not to make a movie like that, which is what the studio is at odds with the filmmaker.

• 22:20Josh Horowitz?

  You're starting at the worst possible place.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  You're really making a mistake and, and you know, that was what really doomed that. I was really glad and gratified that Zach got to really, and he did in a very kind of canny way, manipulated his way into getting his thing released, which was fucking great. And I was really happy for him. Um, boy, that was shitty that him, him, him being taken off that movie and, and the reshoots that we did, that's, that was the low, if you want, the low point of my career was that.

• 22:48Josh Horowitz?

  So that, that was, I mean, you know, you, you bring it up like, that was seeming like a perfect storm of horrible things happening. What was going on with Zach, needless to say, was a horrible personal tragedy. You were going through it personally and professionally and, and, and this film is like kind of collapsing in front of you. Like, did you kind of have any kind of moment of epiphany on that, on that set about personal or professional?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, look, the personal thing, you know, somebody's, uh, death by suicide is that, that eclipses everything. And, and the, and then the way in which that was, I thought frankly, used as an excuse. I just thought it was one of the shittiest things I'd ever seen, you know? And it, it, it was so gross. And then, and then the whole environment and vibe, much of which I didn't, wasn't privy to, but that I sort of heard about secondhand in terms of Ray and Gal and other people's experiences. It was just like, wow, this is about as gross as it gets.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  And I think it really, and I was drinking too much, you know? That's when I started to feel like, boy, I'd like to quit drinking and I'm having a hard time not drinking. I'm coming up with, I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to do that. Um, and I got divorced. I mean, you know, it was definitely like a, a very difficult time for me personally, but I can imagine, you know, having gone through and dealt with that, that those things while painful were not what impacted that movie. I mean, they, they just happened to be happening at the same time.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, um, if you'll indulge me going back even outside of the directing career on the acting side, because I, you know, I've talked to Matt a bunch on the podcast over the years and he's talked about going up for Primal Fear and all the roles that he wanted way back when. I don't really know about like your story with like the auditions that you were going up for. Were you going up for the same stuff as Matt in that time or?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Those were the group of guys, you know, this was a time when, um, I don't know, you kind of knew all the other guys who were going up for stuff and, and you know, cause you'd see who would get the part and you'd see them in the rooms, you know, was holding our sides and you kind of knew who they were and sometimes you'd work with them and, um.

• 25:01Josh Horowitz?

  Like who was the, who was the guy, who was the guy that was taking all of your parts?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Well, the guy I looked up to, you know, was River Phoenix. He was the guy I thought like, boy, he's the best young actor around. I still think that about him. It's such a tragedy what happened to that guy. Um, and you know, Leo showed up around that time and he's a, he is a mighty talent and has obviously proven that out over the years. And, and then there, you know, then of course, yeah, yeah, Edward and Matt, and there was, there were, there were guys that I, you know, the Brendan Fraser and Chris O'Donnell and, and then, you know, all the actors that I, so many actors that I knew and hung out with who were friends, like Matthew or, or Vince or, you know, Favreau and, uh, you know, and you had like, gosh, I mean, you look through the cast of like School of Times, Daisy, you know?

• 25:48Josh Horowitz?

  Were you competitive with those guys or was it sort of like everyone's going to get their time? It's going to come?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  You know, to be honest, like a, a lot of young actors, I think, I think a lot of actors feel competitive. I'm really lucky. I think my friendship with Matt and the fact that, I don't know, this, maybe the fact that my mom always sort of instilled in my brother and I a sense of like, you know, your own fate has to do with you. There's not, it's not a zero sum game, you know, kind of a thing. I felt like at the end of the day, like, you know, the, someone else's success isn't taken away from me. And then that's, I'm lucky. It's not some great virtue of mine. It's that I was lucky beginning, it made me feel a little bit more sane. I didn't spend my time looking at movies and going, why the fuck is this guy getting this? And which, which can happen to people.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  And I, I felt just, um, I kind of had a sense like I was getting cast, I was bigger, uh, physically and heavier and, and kind of every time I went in for the lead, I'd always get called back for the, the guy, the bully or the bad guy or the guy who slams kids into their locker. And so I was doing a lot of those parts. And that was my frustration. And so I, uh, Kevin Smith really was the person who really cast me in a, in a lead role that wasn't, you know, literally throwing someone into their locker and chasing Amy. And so, you know, that was really meaningful, but also, you know, I was a, I was pretty aware that like, you know, you, you probably had to, to, to make it happen for yourself, you know?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And, and going out and kind of like, this was the time where, you know, filmmakers like Rick Linklater, who had done, um, Slacker or Kevin, who had done Clerks or, or Spike, who years earlier had done Do the Right Thing or Quentin, who did Reservoir Dogs. Like that was a, maybe not the first time, I guess, because you had Cassavetes and people like that, but it was a resurgence or an emergence of a DIY, uh, spirit that, you know, Sundance was really probably in its, in its, I think that it's high point. Cause that was when all these really cool sex lives and videotape, you know, people were making these movies and you know, the million dollars was kind of the number people threw around. I have no idea what they, what the movies really cost, but the sense was if you could

• 28:05Speaker 02

  just cobble together, not that that wasn't a lot of money. It certainly felt out of reach for us. Otherwise we probably would, we would have tried to finance. I mean, in fact, when Matt was, went down and did a TNT movie with Tommy Lee Jones, uh, called The Good Old Boys, uh, we were, I was like, okay, give them our script. You know, we're going to get him attached, like Quentin got Harvey Keitel attached and we're going to do, you know, get him on board. And I remember the first night Matt was there in Plano, Texas, or wherever it was, I called him up, I said, how'd it go? And he was like, I don't think Tommy's going to do our movie.

• 28:37Josh Horowitz?

  Notorious pushover Tommy Lee Jones.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  I worked with him later and I was like, yeah, I get, not an easy guy to approach. Yeah. What is it? What do you want, son? No, I will not read your screenplay. What else?

• 28:50Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I still love that famous Batman Forever story. What's the Jim Carrey story where he runs into him? I will not sanction your buffoonery. Do you remember that? Remember that story?

• 29:00Speaker 02

  I don't even know, but it doesn't surprise me. I did a scene with Tommy Lee where, and he was great in the scene. It's a movie called Company Men that was, you know, it was about the economic crisis and people getting laid off and suicides. It wasn't a great commercial success, but I really liked the movie. John Wells was directed and he was great.

• 29:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Chris Cooper was in it.

• 29:18Josh Horowitz?

  Sundance. I think I talked to you at Sundance for that.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  And, and I remember Tommy had this speech where he was walking down this pier and he was talking about, you know, what it used to be and, and, and the jobs that had been lost and all, and it was one of those great speeches. And I have a line. I just was walking along with him, staring at him and I, I watched him be halfway through a take. I was like, wow, this is good. We got three quarters of the way through it. I was like, oh, fuck, Tommy is killing it. We got to the end and it was a great take and he knew it and it didn't cut or anything. He just turned to the director and said, I think you're going to like your movie.

• 29:53Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. Only Tommy Lee can do that.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  I was like, I gotta use that. I still haven't used that line.

• 29:59Josh Horowitz?

  You shouldn't say that.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  You're welcome, Mr. Fincher.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  You're welcome, David. Okay? Ball game. Close it out.

• 30:07Speaker 05

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 30:14Speaker 00

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• 30:38Speaker 06

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• 31:26Josh Horowitz?

  One of my favorite Good Will Hunting stories is again, something Matt told me. I'd love your perspective. When you meet Michael Mann and you guys talk to Michael Mann and he basically says, your script's great, but I think you need to go a different way with the movie and basically wanted to kind of do the Michael Mann version of Good Will Hunting.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, which like at the time surprises, but now looking at it, I just think, no, like filmmakers, you know, he, he was so thoroughly rooted in and had such an understanding of it, spent so much time researching. I mean, and you look at movies like Heat and you see why, like the LA crime world, you know? And so we came in and did it. He was like, I like the movie. I do like the picture, but I have something to show you guys. And we were like, okay. And he showed us a video of like a gang fight in an LA club. And he was like, that's what, this is what's going on. This is how it is right now. You see what these guys are doing? And I was like, yeah, I see what they're doing. Seems like a bunch of Latino guys with face tattoos, like in a riot at some club downtown. It doesn't really have a bearing on, but it was just like what he's drawn to, you know what I mean?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  And, um, look, Michael's like, you know, he typically, I mean, I, he's, he's, he's making Heat Two now, you know? And it's that script I read, it's really fucking good.

• 32:38Josh Horowitz?

  Did you talk to him about doing Heat Two?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  I have not, I cannot unfortunately lay claim to.

• 32:42Josh Horowitz?

  What do you do? Reading the script? What's going on?

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Ah, you know, you get to a place where you just like no guys and, and I don't want to talk out of school, but I, because I'm a fan and I, and I know him and, um, I want to read it and it's also a book. I just thought like, and, and you know, I was curious about it and it's really good. I mean, and I think, you know, and he's, I don't know how old Michael is. Maybe he's 75, 80 years old, you know, like he's, but I think it's, I think it's going to be a terrific movie.

• 33:11Josh Horowitz?

  I thought Ferrari was pretty good, actually. So, yeah, yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Michael is one of the greats.

• 33:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Um, have you had to resist, this might sound silly, but knowing Hollywood, like, have you had to resist a Good Will Hunting sequel? Have they come to you with like bags of money and like, come on guys?

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Not bags of money. They did at one point when Miramax was bought again by somebody and like they did, they did come to us and you want to do a TV show or a sequel? And I was like, it's just an easy no. Like, no, I don't. I don't know what it would be and it just seems like a really, and look, I get it. Sometimes you get to a place where it's like, like I said, I've had the, the downturn in the career where you go like, shit, I don't know what else to do. And sometimes you get to that place and you go back to the well and go, you know what? Like, let me do this and kind of fire it back up. I don't have any, any judgment whatsoever. I've just lucky enough that I've never had to do it. And honestly, I don't know what, what the story would be. It's just, one of the nice things about it is that it's kind of contained, you know?

• 34:11Josh Horowitz?

  A couple of random ones. Armageddon. Did you, what did you make of the animal crackers scene? Did you feel like this is, this is romance that to have animal crackers and?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  You know, you got to remember this was at a time when like true romance had come out and you know, or, uh, it was true or Crimson Tide or whatever. And there was like the Silver Surfer monologue that Quentin wrote. And so there was a, a, a kind of, um, notion that like, you know, you wanted the right kind of surprising iconic and, and also I was like, I had just done Good Will Hunting and I, and screen tested for that movie and I certainly wasn't in any position to, like, my idea was like, just make it work. If you can make it good, you know, I thought like doing my bad Ozzy bit, you know, where it was like, watch the gazelle, it was like, you know, I like, that's how I could kind of make, make it funny. Um, and it's a little silly. I mean, the, the whole movie's a little silly,

• 35:06Speaker 02

  but it's got a lot of charm and it was a lot of fun. And, you know, I got to work with like, I mean, that was great. It was like Steve Buscemi and.

• 35:14Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, it's a murderer's robe and every collector.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Billy Bob Thornton. I remember Billy Bob, we were doing that, you know, after Good Will Hunting and then, and then we went, Billy had won the Oscar for writing the year before. It was Sling Blade, which was a movie that we just like, you know, worshipped. And, and I saw Billy after the Oscars and I was like, and I said, party. And he was like, so let me ask you a question. Did they give you guys like half an Oscar? It was like you both wrote it. Did you get half a one or what? Well, what the fuck they give you? You get a fractional Oscar. You know, mine's a whole one, right? I do got a whole lot. Billy's a funny fucking guy. He was in that movie like, Michael, I'm just wondering what the fuck we're doing here. Ah, then, I mean, I generally like to be in the kind of movies that make sense, you know what I mean? But fuck it. Okay. We don't have to do that. We don't have to do that on this one. Fuck it. We don't have to make any sense.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  I just, I thought maybe it'd make some sense, but I guess not.

• 36:05Josh Horowitz?

  You're recreating your, your famous DVD commentary live for me. Thank you.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Did I do Billy in the DVD?

• 36:11Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, but in terms of calling it out, um, what was your favorite direction David Fincher ever gave you? What sticks out?

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you, the first thing I remember is first or second day, we were doing this kind of walk and talk scene. And I'd done, I'd heard, oh, David does a lot of takes. And so my thing was like, at that point, I, I had learned enough to know, like you work with a good director, a great director. It, that, that's the goal. And, and I'm, I'm fine with that. If you're great, I'll do the fuck you want to do. I'm with you. I'll go all the way for you. And so my thing was like, I'm never ever going to be the guy who wants, doesn't want to do another take. I'll go as long as this dude can go and longer. That was kind of my ethos. Like, you know, I, I, you start directing anything else. I thought, I don't know that I'm any gift, more gifted as, than anyone else at this, but I know I can work as hard as anybody.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  And so I sort of took that approach to that movie and I remember we did, we had on take 21, David goes, first print, delete all the previous takes. And I was like, and the motherfucker deleted all the takes prior to 21. And I thought, he's not fucking around. He really is gonna, this is really how he works.

• 37:27Josh Horowitz?

  But he doesn't need to say that. That's just like, that's, that's sending a message.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  It is sending a message. He, he, he was making a point and, uh, but you know what? I love David.

• 37:36Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  I loved working for him. I really like people. I have found like, whether it was in high school or anywhere else, like the higher standard, you know, somebody held me to, the higher I did.

• 37:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  And, and I loved it. And I loved thinking like, oh, it got addictive. Like, oh, we can just keep chasing excellence as hard as we can. And so it got to be something like that where I just thought, great, maybe we'll just bleed all over the place and, and go as hard as we can do and, and, uh, and we'll get something great. I don't actually now believe that's why David is a good director. I actually have another theory about why he does so many takes, but he'd get bent out of shape if I shared it, but, um.

• 38:19Josh Horowitz?

  What's the truth on the Yankee hat story? He says on the commentary, maybe he's embellishing that production shut down for four days.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  He's such a lying motherfucker. That is such a fucking lie. I don't know why he, he loves to say shit like that.

• 38:32Josh Horowitz?

  You just said you love David Fincher. Now what just happened?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  And I'm friends with him and I adore him and he'll fucking lie if he thinks it'll get a reaction. He doesn't, he's got a very sort of dark sense of humor. And I know he thought like, ah, I'll make Ben suffer for this for many years. The truth is, I don't think anyone had ever said like no to him about anything. And he, he, with this airport scene and he was like, yeah, I think you're wearing a Yankee hat. And I said, ah, I don't think that's a good idea, David. And he was like, looked at me like, you know, why are you talking to me? Uh, and I said, I just think like, look, I'm a Red Sox fan. It's just going to be a big distraction. I'm wearing a Yankee hat. Let's just do something else. And then he decided, no, no, no, it has to be Yankee hat. And I was like, it doesn't, but why? I mean, they sell hats and he was like, you know,

• 39:14Speaker 02

  and that it was probably all of 20 minutes that we talked about it. And eventually it was like, what about the Mets? And I was like, all right, sure, man. It's fine. Fuck it.

• 39:22Josh Horowitz?

  You win.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  That was it. And then he's like, yeah, it cost us $40 million while Ben Affleck wouldn't wear the fucking, I didn't take that long arguing over whether to be naked in the movie. You know what I mean? Like, uh, I was like, so I'm, I'm what? I'm sorry. What? So hold on. What can we see here? He's like, you're naked. I'm like, but like in what sense?

• 39:41Josh Horowitz?

  Metaphorically.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And then I was just like, oh, fuck it. All right. You know?

• 39:45Josh Horowitz?

  Um, is there something about the one more Batman question? Is there something about the Batman suit that like the, the, the low pitch, the growl comes? I mean, you have a deep voice anyway, but like every Batman has to do the I'm Batman like that. You can't help it. Is that just go with the territory?

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Well, it's because if you're like, I'm Batman, it just seems farcical, right? Um, like that's not.

• 40:03Josh Horowitz?

  I want to watch you bleed. Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  I'm gonna watch you bleed. I'm not Batman. Get away from me. I'm Batman. Ah. Uh, it's just not gonna. I remember I did, when I did Armageddon, speaking of Armageddon, Bruce Willis once turned to me, he's like, man, you got, your, your, your voice is too high. I was like, what? He was like, don't have that high voice. I was like, Bruce, it's just my voice. I can't, I don't think, can I change that?

• 40:23Josh Horowitz?

  Get surgery too.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  He was like, man, don't, you don't want to sound like that, man. I'm helping you out. Bruce, by the way, I love Bruce. He was the sweetest guy in the world and he, he really was giving me a tip. He was also like, man, don't go, don't go do that Shakespeare movie, man. You don't want to do that. I was like.

• 40:38Josh Horowitz?

  Can't be right all the time.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he was wrong about that one, but he hadn't read the script in all fairness. Um, it was, that was one where I just didn't want to, you know, like often they're computer modified. Uh, and I thought like, well, what if it's just that he, also I liked the idea of the guy was, if you see the Frank Miller book, the, I mean, the guy is really old. He's like, I mean, he's drawn intimidatingly enough to look like Marlon Brando. Um, but he's, you know, quite gray haired and older and, and just beat to shit. And so I, I kind of liked the idea of him just being sounding literally, you know, kind of exhausted and, and gravelly in that sense. And, uh,

• 41:21Speaker 02

  uh, and, and I liked the fact that it wasn't, cause otherwise it begs the question, you got like the voice modifier in the suit or something like that. And I mean, maybe I took it too literally, you know?

• 41:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's not a criticism. I'm just always curious about like what happens in there.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  It just, that, that was just one of those things where, and honestly you'd just feel a little bit more comfortable. You gotta get into it and then kind of, if you don't believe that you're Batman, you're, you're really in trouble. And, uh, it's funny. I heard stories about like Tim Burton and Nicholson, this famous stories about him saying, let the suit do the acting, you know? You gotta, it, it's a, it's a lesson actually that I learned from directing just in general, which is as an actor, we're apt to think that we need to do more work than we do. And you've got to know that the movie and the momentum of the film and all the efforts that everyone else is putting in is, is, is, you know, you're, you're on a battleship and it's

• 42:09Speaker 02

  being powered and it's, you know, manned and everything by the, whatever, the nuclear engines and the guns and all that stuff. And you don't have to paddle the ship yourself. In fact, if you do, it looks like you're working too hard and the worst thing that you can do is work too hard because all of a sudden the audience is like, stop fucking selling me something, you know?

• 42:28Josh Horowitz?

  Um, has Kevin Feige tried to get you back as Daredevil for something? And are you open to it?

• 42:33Speaker 02

  He hasn't. I wish he would. Kevin Feige is, uh, I mean, I, I don't want that to say that as if, and I don't, I don't, I really don't mean this in any way other than like, I just feel that I've kind of done my superhero movies and I, I don't know that I've, there's anything left for me that's particularly interesting in them for me to do. But I will say that of all the producers in the world who have like sort of pretended to kind of know what the audience wants. The only guy I would ever believe is Kevin Feige. Kevin Feige, if you think about what he was able to do, and the motherfucker was standing there on the set of Daredevil, he just wasn't in charge. I,

• 43:10Speaker 02

  it was one of the things I wish I'd go back in time on is like, go back in time and be like, no, not you, you, you, you, come here, come here. What do you think we should do?

• 43:19Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember him on set? Did he talk to him at all?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  I remember him. Yeah. He was like a junior guy and Avi Arad was running it and you know, the director and all this, and everybody had their ideas. And I was like, I, do you really, should I really be sniffing and saying justice? I just wonder if that's the best, why, and why am I sniffing? What am I smelling? And what does that have to do with justice? Is justice a smell? Um, and I feel that Kevin may have been on my side. I like to think, and also Kevin just has a, a really strong understanding for, you know, like exactly how to balance the sort of, the degree to which you can be cheeky about the fact that you're wearing pajamas.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  And then also when you can lean into a serious moment and when you, when you need to like wink at the audience and how much of the sort of, okay, how do you balance these, like a fight scene with the, with a moment of comedy, like he just has a talent for. And as such, it would appear to me from the outside, and I have to caveat this by saying is that I'm just as much as an outsider as anyone sitting at home. But my, my view of, of what he's done is to kind of construct Marvel Studios sort of in the way the, a, a great showrunner runs a television series, which is to have like, hey, we have the tone, we have the cast, we have the crew, we, we, you know, we built this script and here's your stunt coordinator, like,

• 44:45Speaker 02

  not that they just come on and say action.

• 44:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  But that like, and, and there's certainly been filmmakers like, like, like Ryan Coogler, who've really like left a unique stamp and mark on it. And there's also been filmmakers who come into the Marvel universe and been really successful and left and gone elsewhere. And that isn't the case. And I do think that it's because there's a kind of Kevin Feige backstop. Uh, and you've got a guy like, like all the great showrunners is just on a bigger scale. Who in, in, in, they've done a good job at keeping secret, whatever the, I don't know what gets recut or what gets hashed out or whatever, but, but I would trust him.

• 45:24Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, you hear the stories about how they make these Avengers movies and you're like, really? And somehow they all work out. Like they start without a script and then they build the reshoots and all of it.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  You can't possibly understand how difficult it is to have 20 some consecutive billion dollar movies. I mean, I don't, have I ever had one?

• 45:43Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, Christmas, I think made a billion.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Surviving Christmas made the one one thousandth of a billion dollars, but I mean, and I've had hit movies, you know, like, look, you talk about Gone Girl, hey, big hit or, or Pearl Harbor, I think a half a billion dollars, right? Like, and maybe that's a billion dollars in contemporary, you know, inflation adjusted, but like nonetheless, uh, you know, Batman versus Superman, that was a big success. I think it was an 800 million dollar movie. In order to do that, i- i- it's just not an accident, you know? And then like, yeah, okay. I'm sure they've, they've been some misses along the way because it truly, it's an, it's an affront to the gods to be perfect. He may, he may be doing that on purpose.

• 46:22Josh Horowitz?

  Let me throw in one.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's like those old Persian rug makers who intentionally weave a flaw into the rug.

• 46:29Josh Horowitz?

  See, I'm human.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Uh, but, but he, he has that understanding for that, that genre story, whatever. So, so do I think, could we have fucking benefited from him on Daredevil? Well, I mean, bet your fucking life we could have.

• 46:43Josh Horowitz?

  If you had a time machine, that's what you'd do. Talk to the guy in the corner.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Hell yes.

• 46:46Josh Horowitz?

  Um, okay. Two challenges before you, for you, before you go. I do this with actors that have amazing filmographies. You're going to pick your best movie bracket style. So I'm pitting them against each other. You ready?

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 46:56Josh Horowitz?

  Good Will Hunting versus Chasing Amy. What do you choose?

• 46:59Speaker 02

  I can go hunting just because it's more personal to me.

• 47:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Gone Girl versus Armageddon?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Gone Girl is more my kind of movie.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Argo versus The Town?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  You know, just different movies. I, I really do love, love both of the movies. Um, I mean, I would say Argo just because I had grown as a director and tried more things and, and, and I honestly, I think the level of difficulty was higher. I really did not know whether or not I'd be able to have these two really different tones work in the same movie where you've got like mock execution of real American hostages in Iran and like a straight up kind of Hollywood satire comedy. I, I thought like we could end up being, you know, laughed off the road with that movie. Um, so, so I would say, I guess, Argo.

• 47:50Josh Horowitz?

  BBS versus The Way Back?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  I like them both for different reasons. The Way Back again is, is, I'm always going to opt for a, a, a more personal story, you know, obviously a movie where about like the, the loss of a child and, and that kind of grief. And in that case, like, you know, triggering, you know, alcoholism and all sorts of things. But at the end of the day, that, that movie was also like a real growth movie for me as an actor. I feel that I, I feel sort of like a late bloomer in a lot of ways, and I'm glad that I had the chance to stick around long enough to, to become an actor that where I feel I'm capable of doing kind of interesting stuff, kind of on purpose. Uh, and that was one where I, I, I really

• 48:35Speaker 02

  uh, uh, I felt that I was able to like conjure up some kind of authentic stuff that, you know, when I was younger, I probably wouldn't have been able to do.

• 48:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And being brave to like mine your own shit in the best possi- possible way.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  And you're always kind of theoretically mining your own shit. But again, it's sort of, you can't get blood from stone, you know? If you don't have something that gives you opportunity, do something that's human and real. And it's a lot of credit, credit to, to Gavin O'Connor, who's a wonderful director and uh, whom I adore, uh, and was really my partner on that. And, you know, this dude didn't particularly want to do that movie and we had to bring the price way down and, uh, but at the end of the day, it was like, God, I love that movie. I love working with the young guys who are playing basketball players. It reminded me of being that age and doing school ties and just starting out and Jeanne, Kamonkar was in the movie I loved and uh, I mean, it, it was just one of those ones that I, it was a real favorite of, of mine.

• 49:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So you're down to the final four, uh, Good Will Hunting versus Gone Girl.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, you know, Good Will Hunting will always be like a formative movie for me, although, you know, Gone Girl is really also truly, honestly, I love Gone Girl, but like getting to become friends with David Fincher and getting to know him is one of the guys I really love in my life is, has been his, you know, incredibly meaningful gift. This is two of my like, you know, favorite people in the world that David had met.

• 49:51Josh Horowitz?

  So today for today, for this moment, you just have to choose one. It's okay. It's not binding for life.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  More or less.

• 50:00Josh Horowitz?

  And then Argo versus The Way Back then?

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Argo.

• 50:03Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, Argo versus Mallrats, I guess.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Oh, that's close, but I'm gonna go with Argo.

• 50:09Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, there it is. We end every Happy, Sad, Confused with profoundly random questions, Ben. Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Dog.

• 50:17Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Cameras.

• 50:20Josh Horowitz?

  What's your favorite?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Movie posters.

• 50:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yes. What's your favorite movie poster you got?

• 50:24Speaker 02

  I've got a, um, I've got a, uh, Grand Illusion first edition poster. And, uh, yes, one of my favorite movies, my favorite filmmaker, and that's probably my most cherished of all posters.

• 50:37Josh Horowitz?

  What's your favorite video game of all time?

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Ooh, man, that's a good question. Fuck, that's hard.

• 50:45Josh Horowitz?

  What have you sucked? What sucked the most life out of you, the time out of you, what's?

• 50:48Speaker 02

  I mean, there was a game called Starcraft that probably took the most life out of me for a period of time, like where I did, and I had like just got famous and all I did was stay home for three years and play Starcraft.

• 50:59Josh Horowitz?

  Where's Ben? Unavailable due to Starcraft.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, although like I love, you know, Valorant's a great game. It's a great game. The problem with that game is that I just, with kids that have been raised like playing, I just get fucking rocked. And I, I'm like, are you motherfuckers cheating? You know what I mean? And I get mad and they're like 11 and like, fuck you loser! And it's, uh, it's very humiliating, but that's a great game. I love 2K. I love Madden. I love, um, you know, and, and the early like Doom, when, when I first played that game, which then gave rise to Quake and gave rise to all the, that's a great game. We played that, you know, endlessly for hours. Like when we were doing Good Hunting, we were playing that. I think we were playing Doom. Yeah, before even. We were, we were playing Doom. I remember writing and taking these long breaks to play Doom.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  I can't believe it's been that long. Um, I like, and then there's other, I like, I like those like, kind of real time strategy civilization building style, which has sort of gone out of style. Starcraft was one of those. Um, you know, there's an old game called Myst. That was a fabulous game.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  The great storytelling and that. You're on that island.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  And I feel like there's an opportunity for somebody to do something like that again. That was an amazing video game.

• 52:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's like the prisoner vibes. Remember that show? I love that.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I mean, but like, I played fucking, I mean, you know, like Donkey Kong and Tetris and Ms. Pac-Man for tens of millions of hours and after school going to the arcades in the old days when I was a kid playing those classic games and, and so much so that I even, I still have a Ms. Pac-Man video, stand-up video game. And I, I mean, I'm, I'm a great, uh, fan of the, uh, uh, and lover of, of video games. And now I play, I get to play 2K with my son and lose, which is, it's so humiliating. You and your 14-year-old son just fucking just beats you and then just mocks me and derides me. And it's all I can do not to get really petty and competitive.

• 52:57Josh Horowitz?

  Dakota Johnson asked me this. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  One bee in my butt. In fact, I'd love that anytime you want to.

• 53:06Josh Horowitz?

  We'll get that, we'll get that sorted for you. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Uh, my kids. Picture me and my kids.

• 53:13Josh Horowitz?

  Does this ever happen? Last actor you were mistaken for? Do you ever get mixed up with anyone?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I went to the premiere of, uh, Flirting with Disaster and somebody came up and was like, you're amazing in this film. I assume they thought I was Ben Stiller. Uh, I get mistaken for Matt all the time where people call me Matt all the time. I don't think I'm actually mistaken, but I think they, they sort of, whatever dyslexia of the names.

• 53:34Josh Horowitz?

  Siamese twins, yeah, basically.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Um, I have been mistaken for maybe Jake Gyllenhaal, probably like Matt Dillon. Um, which like it's random, like you just don't, I've been mistaken, you know, there is that thing where people are just like, ah, I know you vaguely from something.

• 53:55Josh Horowitz?

  Just tell me your filmography. That's never.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Aren't you the guy from, I'm like, nope. If you don't know my name, I don't have to stop. That's the deal.

• 54:03Josh Horowitz?

  No selfies, sorry buddy.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  I'll get a picture with you. Who are you again? Nope, nope, not doing it. Gotta know the name.

• 54:08Josh Horowitz?

  I was in motherfucking Surviving Christmas. Shows of respect.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  The thing about Surviving Christmas, I have to say, interestingly, which is, which is the great gift of this life that I've had, which has been enormously fortunate. You know, even punctuated by all the, uh, uh, you know, there's moments of disappointment like Surviving Christmas. Like Jim Gandolfini was one of the great men I've ever known. A prince, lovely guy, a phenomenal actor. And I wouldn't take that movie back for anything. Christina Applegate, getting to work with her, she is, she's a spectacular person. Like, so some of these experiences, while maybe not great for the audience, were definitely great for me, you know? I mean, I guess I learned so much from, I've learned more from, from mistakes and from perceived failures than success.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Success hasn't taught me anything, other than to be a little bit more conservative or try to maintain it or worry about losing it. Success, failure teaches you that you can get back up off the ground, that you can be resilient, that like fail, that like, you can take risks because what's, you've survived failure. Uh, and it also teaches you, like for me, it was like, if I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail on my own merits. I'm not gonna kind of hew to what I think other people think I should do because like, you know, like, failing on those terms is the worst possible thing.

• 55:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 55:33Josh Horowitz?

  You can name the name or not.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, I, I mean, you know, something along the lines of like, it's just, it's just, it's like, it looks fucking stupid. Or say, you know, like, I won't say who my man is, but he was a very blunt guy, you know?

• 55:50Josh Horowitz?

  That's Michael Bay. That's Michael Bay.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say, but there are, you know, the truth is like, I remember asking Sean Penn once, like, what, like, I remember, I, I don't even know him particularly well. I'm just a fan and I, I ran into him at a thing and we were talking and I asked him what he, what frustrated him with the directors and stuff, because I was thinking about it myself. And he just said, too much talk. And I remember thinking, yeah, like, the truth is, once you get there, if you're working with good actors, like, it's not so much about the notes, you know what I mean? And Sean's like, I can play one fucking thing. You know, you want to spend, talk for a half an hour? Man, what, faster. Like, what do you want?

• 56:28Josh Horowitz?

  It's the compulsion to fill the space. Like, oh, I have to justify my.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, you can, you can do your whole soliloquy about it.

• 56:34Josh Horowitz?

  If it makes you feel better.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  But I'm here and I gotta go take all these and go out and play it like.

• 56:38Josh Horowitz?

  You're cluttering my brain with your shit now.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're dumping all your, your shit on me. Like, um, so, so I've been lucky in that I really learned that like the thing to do with actors is to give them a sense of authorship, freedom and support. And that that's really what's likely is to get the best results.

• 56:56Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. And finally, in the spirit of happy, sad, confused, an actor who makes you happy, see them on screen and you're in a better mood.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Uh, actor that makes me happy. There's, let's see, I want to say somebody, uh, uh, you know, um, I have to say somebody, I just forgot their name, a new actor who's really terrific, but I, I feel like my brain is filled up with names. Um, an actor who I see that makes me happy, I'll, I'll say Morgan Freeman. Every time I see Morgan on screen, it's just like, it doesn't matter what he's doing. Doesn't matter if he's just like, hello. I'm like, this is wonderful. I love the guy and he, I had the chance to work with him a couple of times. It was a gift. But he, he makes me happy to see. And they can watch, I could watch the end of Shawshank Redemption any day. And that would make me happy. That whole like, you know, I hope, I hope to see my friend Andy again and shake his hand.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  I hope the Pacific is as blue as Ben and my dreams. I hope, I mean, that's to me like, uh, sort of the whole thing in a nutshell.

• 57:54Josh Horowitz?

  What's a movie that makes you sad?

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, lots of them. I mean, um, I'll tell you a movie that made me sob with tears that I think is a, is a, is a, uh, masterpiece. And the best depiction of alcoholism that's ever been rendered on screen is a movie called To Leslie. Um, Andrea Rice Bros. in it, and that performance is as authentic and moving as anything I've ever seen on screen. And that woman, I, I just, I, I was so mesmerized by it that I asked to have a meeting with her and I met her. And once I met her, I was just like, it was even harder for me to believe that she did. And I was like, you must be an alcoholic. And she was like, no, no, I'm afraid. And I was like, what? You know, how did you do that?

• 58:42Speaker 02

  I mean, that, that's one of the best performances I've seen in, I don't know, decades.

• 58:46Josh Horowitz?

  She's a chameleon. She's always different.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Fuck, is she something else, boy.

• 58:50Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Gluten-free things.

• 59:01Josh Horowitz?

  You like your gluten?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, if you're not, it's kind of like alcohol-free beer. You know what I mean? I just go ahead and have some Sudsy Carks. Like, no, not really. Uh, what's the whole point of this thing here is to get your gluten on. Although this, I don't mean to prejudice or judge anyone who is, needs to eat.

• 59:20Josh Horowitz?

  You've lost the gluten lobby. All gluten lovers.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  No, I believe the gluten-free lovers. All the, all the non, all the gluten allergic people. But yeah, other than that, I, I don't know why you would, uh, would choose to eat something that's gluten-free. It's sort of like taking the heart out of the melon, you know? Uh, fuck it, man. That life is, uh, uh, bread is the, the bread of life.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  And there's the wisdom.

• 59:41Josh Horowitz?

  There it is. There's the wisdom of the day. Get yourself a big loaf of bread, plant yourself in front of the TV, enjoy animals on Netflix. Congratulations, sir. Your press tour is officially done.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  And I don't think I was canceled. We'll find out when everything, you know.

• 59:57Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst that could pass? You've been through worse.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  I'd like to think that.

• 1:00:02Josh Horowitz?

  I really appreciate the time.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Thanks very much. I appreciate it too. It's great.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip, the Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone.