James McAvoy, Vol. IV

Welcome back an old friend of Happy Sad Confused, James McAvoy. James is back on the pod to talk all about a new career milestone: his directorial debut, CALIFORNIA SCHEMIN’! James also spills what his Picard tv series pitch was, why he thinks X-MEN: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST is one of the best comic book film adaptations ever, and how he landed Mr. Tumnus' role in THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA. Plus, why James never screen tested for STAR TREK, why he compares his performance in SPLIT to Inde Navarrette in OBSESSION, and more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/happy #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 0:53Speaker 02

  Here I am, likening myself to the latest brilliant reactor. No, seriously.

• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  I was indeed not ready first, guys. I was there first.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  I was pulling all those moves.

• 1:04Josh Horowitz?

  I get 24 characters, just for the record.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  She did two.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  It was really hard. It was really hard.

• 1:10Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 1:18Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. It's one of our favorites today. James McAvoy is back and now he's a director. We're talking about his new film, California Scheming. But of course, we're hitting up X-Men, Split, Narnia, and so much more. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, however you're enjoying this. I don't care, just hit the subscribe button. You know what to do. We love our regulars around here and we love Mr. James McAvoy. He's come on the pod a bunch over the years and this time it is for a very personal, special cause because he is now a director. This has been something he's wanted to do for a long while and it is now out in theaters. And I will tell you, guys, this is a great movie. It's called California Scheming.

• 1:57Josh Horowitz?

  It's a crazy, crazy true story about two young Scottish artists who actually pretended to be American to launch their hip hop career. And it kind of sort of worked for a while. It's funny, it's sweet, it has some tragedy to it. It's a really great debut and I'm so happy to support it on the podcast. Check it out, California Scheming. As always, James has a great conversation. He's funny, he's smart, he's a big old nerd. He loves Star Trek and Star Wars and Dune and Narnia and all the things that I love and you probably love. And we talk about it all on this, in this conversation today. Really fun stuff. And of course, we hit up X-Men, the new, you know, iteration of it, his take on that and much, much more. So as always, a great conversation with James McAvoy. I think you guys are gonna dig it.

• 2:42Josh Horowitz?

  Remember to check out his movie in theaters now, California Scheming. And without any further ado, I hope you guys enjoy me and James McAvoy.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Hi, guys.

• 2:54Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, James.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Hi, what's going on, man? You good?

• 2:58Josh Horowitz?

  I'm good. What have we just talked like this for 45 minutes?

• 3:00Speaker 02

  We should.

• 3:02Josh Horowitz?

  Welcome back to the podcast.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Thank you very much.

• 3:06Josh Horowitz?

  Man of a thousand voices. And now we can add to the resume officially. He's a director, he's big time. Now I have to treat you with actual respect.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right, you do.

• 3:15Josh Horowitz?

  This sucks, man.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  No more asking me to have sex with your laptop.

• 3:20Josh Horowitz?

  Actually, I was gonna come to this later. Let's put the photo up, a little montage of some things we've done in the past.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  He's done some crazy stuff.

• 3:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  We've made out.

• 3:27Josh Horowitz?

  We've made up multiple times. That's you having sex with a computer. That's you at a pub quiz killing, I think you killed Daniel Radcliffe in me, maybe?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I stabbed you.

• 3:37Josh Horowitz?

  I think you stabbed.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  I stabbed you both, yeah.

• 3:39Josh Horowitz?

  You robbed a restaurant high on PCP with Jessica Chastain.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  With Jess Chastain, who is being to Justice Morna.

• 3:45Josh Horowitz?

  And then that, that, that one is like, I think our earliest, when you punched me and kicked me, kicked my ass at a gym and yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  And made out with you.

• 3:52Josh Horowitz?

  And made out with me.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  I made out with you, yeah, yeah.

• 3:54Josh Horowitz?

  Really the arc of a relationship all there.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  It's really, do you know what? All, all things are in a relationship. We are all things to each other at different times of that relationship.

• 4:04Josh Horowitz?

  And now we're class, classing it up.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  And now you're respecting me, so this is good.

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, God, it was inevitable, I guess. No, in all earnestness, it's always great to have you on the podcast and this is for a really good cause because we've been talking for a couple of years. This has been long in the making. You've wanted to do this for a while and it took a, you know, it took a minute, but it has to be satisfying. I mean, I know this is, I mean, give me a sense of sort of where you're at as we tape this. It's literally opening finally, California Scheming.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Opens today, whenever you're reading this, it is open.

• 4:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Because it just opened today. And yeah, I'm really proud. It's, look, it's the film I wanted to make. And if you don't like it, I can't really argue with you because it's not like, you know, sometimes I think a director goes like, oh, the studio took it away from me. Or we never had enough money to be able to truly capture the vision or the actors went a different direction. I was hamstrung by this. We lost half the footage with like overexposed film or whatever. None, nothing like that happened. This is, this is the film I wanted to make. So if people don't like it, I'm like, that's, that's fine, that's fair. Thankfully, reviews seem to suggest people do like it. Audience reaction I know is definitely very positive.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  So I'm really, really proud of it. Somebody asked me, excuse me, I keep burping. I just grilled half like a burrito because I'm, it's my breakfast.

• 5:16Josh Horowitz?

  I jammed it into your mouth. I'm like, before you get in here.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Keep looking at this watch and it's broken. Thanks, Omega.

• 5:22Josh Horowitz?

  You lost that endorsement. Wow, way to fuck up an endorsement, dude.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  It's like a sexy, you know, watch, so fair enough.

• 5:28Josh Horowitz?

  We never have that scene in James Bond where he's like, ah, fucking Omega.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  I know, I know. James Bond loses to the bad guys because he like got there 10 minutes too late.

• 5:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I forgot.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Forgot to wind it. I need, I'll get it serviced. I'm not, I'm not dissing Omega. I'm in trouble, man.

• 5:46Josh Horowitz?

  Already, wow. Cancelled in the first three minutes.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  I'm gonna get a Swiss Hitman after me. He's called the, the, the watchwinder or something. That's my next movie. All right, focus.

• 5:57Josh Horowitz?

  No, don't focus. It's okay.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Fuckers.

• 6:00Josh Horowitz?

  Classic, a movie, California Scheming, you made it. What you discovered is.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Is.

• 6:07Josh Horowitz?

  That you love this, that you're never gonna direct again, that you, what's the epiphany you've come to?

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Somebody was at the, the after party of the LA premiere the other night and they were like, how do you feel? And it was quite a sincere, earnest question, actually. It was like, how do you feel? Like I speak to a lot of artists that get to this point and it's never, it's never good for them. It's never like, I'm not slagging you off, man. If you're like, it was a good question.

• 6:28Josh Horowitz?

  I represent Omega.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  It was a leading question. I know. It was a pretty leading question of like, you clearly feel like this doesn't match up to your expectation of what you'd feel like in this incredible moment where your film's finally premiered in America. And I was like, well, it's kind of a different deal for me. I'm a performer, right? And as a director, you're creating, you're not performing, but you're still creating. The, the reward and the award is getting to do your job, is to perform or to create. That's, that's the thing you live for. I never in my wildest dreams was anyway thinking to myself, I just want to get to that premiere party.

• 7:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Or to get to that LA premiere. I mean, it's a good night and all that, but it was never my goal. The goal is to get, to be lucky enough to be able to make the thing.

• 7:15Josh Horowitz?

  Or to get, honestly, to do it again. I've heard from a lot of directors that'll be like, I make it to make it, but I also make it so that I get to keep making them.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I mean, you get a lot of directors who've made one or two movies and there is nothing wrong with them. I mean, if there's something wrong with them, fine, but they're kind of all right. They're not even, maybe they're not like knock at the park, but they're not bad. They're like, they're all right.

• 7:35Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  And they don't get to do it again. So it's hard.

• 7:39Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I'll say on the record, I really dug this.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 7:42Josh Horowitz?

  You killed it. It's honestly, it's, it's great, it's funny, it's emotional, it's very well made, it's a very impressive debut.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. Look, we, we made it. It's a low budget, Scottish, independent movie and I can't tell you the last time that one of those got released in physical theaters in North America. So I feel very honored that Magenta and Bob and Wheezy and everybody at that company thought that this could resonate with American audiences. It is a film that is set in Scotland and in London, but the DNA of it is, is west coast, is like, never reached where it is, west coast hip hop, you know?

• 8:16Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  And it shares a sentiment with the kind of entrepreneurial ship and the fake it till you make it, the striving, the work ethic, the we will do anything to succeed spirit that I think is part of America as well.

• 8:33Josh Horowitz?

  You must relate to this on, I mean, I feel like anybody can relate to this, but especially a performer, someone that like, early in their career, probably was willing to do anything, was just like, just was looking for a shot. And these are two young men who just are looking for that shot. Is that how you connected with the material? Just sort of like, oh, this is, in a way, both of these guys were who I was at a certain point.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  On so many levels, this is like a weird film about two real people and it's a weird film about myself.

• 8:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Because I'm self-obsessed and I will make any film about me.

• 9:04Josh Horowitz?

  Well, any filmmaker will. That's, that's the secret.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  This is the thing, this is the thing. I could do, yeah, I could do the story of Janis Joplin. I'm gonna make it about me. I think you'll find Janis' journey was going to be similar to James McAvoy's. It was quite, you know, there's a lot of similarities. They were two young guys from what you guys call a project. We call it a council scheme, which is why the film is called California Scheming. And, and trying to bust into the world of show business. And, and that was something that I felt was quite similar to my life. They're, the way that they lived, usually when you get films set in projects, they're quite depressing. They're quite exploitative of the poverty and the, the obstacles. And that's fine, those films are, a lot of those films are brilliant.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  But I never get to see a propellant, kind of fun, aspirational, crowd pleaser from people that come from a project or a council scheme. And that was really important for me to do because when I was growing up, I walked outside my door, I didn't feel like I was in precious. I walked outside my door and it might have looked like the Scottish precious, but I walked outside my door and it was full of adventure. And I was getting chased everywhere and I was in fights and it was, there was sex and there was drugs and drinking, craziness and fun and, and adventure. And.

• 10:20Josh Horowitz?

  You wanted to capture all that and not the, the grind.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  And then it goes further than that in terms of the own parallel, the parallel to my life as well. Working class kid trying to break into the arts and what my version of this path is way less sensational than Gavin and Billy's syllable and brains in California Scheming. But it's a path that I've walked for 32 years and I definitely, in my banal version of it, kind of understand.

• 10:43Josh Horowitz?

  I'm guessing it wasn't so banal.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  In terms of how I felt compromised, I don't think I ever felt so, my integrity or my authenticity or my identity never felt so, so obviously compromised as theirs did. I think, you know, from my twenties, I was such a straight arrow or straight bat, as we say. I don't say in cricket, but English people say about cricket. Like I played it straight and narrow.

• 11:09Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have, did you feel like you had a conscious fork in the road where you could have made an artistic compromise that, that would have changed how you felt about yourself? That like, have you, like judging yourself, have you been pretty true to your instincts?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like, you know, getting offered. The opportunity to do, I don't know, award campaigns or, um, which I did do for Last King of Scotland. I seem to remember and I was like, I can't, I can't do it again. And it's not just a judgment on that, that, that machine, which I feel is probably quite different now. Anyway, it's not me just judging that machine. It was me judging my ability to make it through it in one piece.

• 11:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Um, and you know, getting offered

• 11:55Speaker 02

  awards or titles that, that would maybe look good or sound good or help you in your life, but completely compromise your morals and your, the community that you come from.

• 12:10Josh Horowitz?

  Are you talking about like bullshit awards that just people come to make up like or that kind of thing or?

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Um, honors.

• 12:18Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Honors. Um, and, uh, stuff like that. You could go a different path, but you'd feel compromised. And again, not judging people who take those things or.

• 12:29Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you have to live with yourself or at the end of the.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Take titles and stuff like that, but that stuff is, um, I, yeah, you got to, you got to look yourself in the mirror and be cool with yourself. And I'm cool with anybody else who makes a different decision, no judgment, uh, but I judge myself.

• 12:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Were you ever laughed at of an audition as these guys are early on? Anything that remotely bad, what's the, what's, you've got.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  I mean, I've had some pretty horrific audition.

• 12:55Josh Horowitz?

  Lay back, give me one or two, what do you got?

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, I think I've probably talked about most of these at some point in my, my sort of, my sort of press career. But, um, uh, I, my agent wanted me to go up for the musical, uh, We Will Rock You. Before they made the movie with Tom Cruise, I think was in the movie.

• 13:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rock of Ages, yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Rock of Ages, oh, is it Rock of Ages? Maybe it wasn't We Will Rock You or maybe it was, you know, the, the, the, the.

• 13:19Josh Horowitz?

  Bohemian Rhapsody?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  The Queen jukebox musical.

• 13:22Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Not Bohemian Rhapsody, the movie. Anyway, I was like, what do I need to do? It's a musical. I was like, I don't, I'm not a musical guy. I can sing a bit, but really like, I'm not a musical guy. And my agent Ruth, who's been my agent my entire career and I love her and she hates me for telling the story. She was like, who, you know, you get the part, you, you know, I think it's going to turn the, whoever gets this part into a big star. And I was like, oh God. So I go along and she never talks like that anyway. This makes us sound so not like Ruth. This is not how Ruth talks.

• 13:47Josh Horowitz?

  This is gonna make you a star.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  This is gonna make you a star kid. She's from Edinburgh. She's like, you know, she's really pragmatic, Scott. And, um, and if I was like, all right, and I, and I go along and I learn this song. I've got this guitar. I barely play guitar, but I've kind of got half decent like for this one song. And I'm just like, they're like, oh, thanks for coming in, James, and just take it away. And I'm like, I feel like I'm in a movie.

• 14:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  And, uh, and I go like, this isn't true to myself. This isn't me. But instead of telling them that and excusing myself, I invent an elaborate story. And because I'm an actor, I act the shit out of it and I start to cry. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. I've, I've, on the way here, my friend, he got hit by, um, weirdly, ironically, an ambulance. And, um, I, I, I got him in the ambulance because it was at the end. He's away to the hospital, but I don't know why I didn't go with him and I don't know, I don't think I could do it. And they were like, you must go, you go be with your friend. Go, go, James, go, go. And, uh, and I was like, oh Jesus. And I said, I'm never doing that again. Anyway, my agent phoned me up like a couple of hours later and she was like, what happened? Is Tom okay? Is Ross? I was loving to get my mates called Tom and Ross at the time. Are they okay? I was like, uh, yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, here's the thing. I don't think I want to be in musicals. She's like, oh my God. She was like, if you ever do anything like that again, because she was like, they want you back tomorrow. They were like, please come back tomorrow. I was like.

• 15:06Josh Horowitz?

  Someone else is gonna get into an accident that's gonna happen again.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  James is in prison because he murdered somebody. Um, yeah.

• 15:15Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy, Say Confused coming up.

• 15:20Speaker 05

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• 16:46Speaker 00

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• 17:13Josh Horowitz?

  I did read somewhere, maybe this, maybe you know this or this isn't true, but that like another musical that you were, they looked at for you for Mamma Mia and you weren't available or you turned it down?

• 17:21Speaker 02

  I've never heard that.

• 17:21Josh Horowitz?

  Never heard that.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Never heard that. Uh, I've been looked at for a few things where they sort of availability check you and they kind of dangle it and they tease it. And you're like, oh my God, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Woo, give me the script, give me the script. And you never hear anything. That was, Star Wars was one of the, one of those. I got availability checked from them years ago and I was so excited.

• 17:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. You're a mild Star Wars fan to say the least.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Star Trek, Star Wars, Star everything, Star fan, Last Star fan, Star man, Star gazer.

• 17:50Josh Horowitz?

  Why have they not done Last Starfighter, remade it? Cause like, that's a movie that's perfect for being remade.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Why have they not done it?

• 17:56Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not looking for an actual reason, but I'm asking myself.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Why have they not done what? Say again.

• 18:00Josh Horowitz?

  Last Starfighter, I think is such a great concept.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  It's brilliant. It's brilliant. Yeah.

• 18:03Josh Horowitz?

  Anyway, wait, so was this like Force Awakens time? Was that when the Star Wars?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  I can't remember. I can't remember. I think it was one of the spin offs. I can't remember. Or one of the standalones. Uh, they never told me what it was either. I mean, basically if I took the call from my agent, I had to sign an NDA, do you know what I mean? It was like just to speak to my agent about it. Um, but there was the other one, Stargazer. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Mutiny and the Stargazer. That was a whole idea I had that I pitched to the Star Trek people as well. And we nearly did it.

• 18:28Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait. This was the, a Picard thing? Like what was this? Like, I think, I think you hinted at this to me once.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  I've got a whole story about an early Picard. I mean, all I really want to do in my career is play young versions of Patrick.

• 18:40Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. You've done a good job of it.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  I've got this whole story about like a young Picard that I love.

• 18:45Josh Horowitz?

  So you pitched like a series or a movie, like a something?

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Pitched, it was like a one off standalone season.

• 18:51Josh Horowitz?

  When he was starring, when he was the captain in the Stargazer or he wasn't captain yet, or was he?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  When he took over as captain of the Stargazer and what actually happened. And the secret that he's been holding his entire career.

• 19:01Josh Horowitz?

  And you came up with a whole like treatment, like a whole idea, like a whole.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  I just pitched it to them, talking to them and they were wild into it, but we had logistical issues that we couldn't do it. But I love that story that I just go to bed about and think about it at night.

• 19:16Josh Horowitz?

  I'm going to do the same now. That's amazing. Um, have you ever, these guys, okay. So I'm, I'm connecting some dots from, from the story. So these two men, they lived the life. They decided to commit all the way and pretend to be basically American.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:32Josh Horowitz?

  Do you go, have you ever gone that route for like a part? Do you like live 24 seven? Like you're not that guy.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Never, but I did do a movie, the movie I did with Jess Chastain, uh, the first movie I did with Jess Chastain. I think I've done four movies with Jess.

• 19:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, do we count two for Eleanor Rigby? That's, that's kind of two.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Well, there's technically three.

• 19:50Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, because they did another cut that mastered together.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Yep. Um, uh.

• 19:56Josh Horowitz?

  So was it for that one you're saying you?

• 19:57Speaker 02

  The director and the producer, uh, Ned and Cassandra Colacundus, they asked me to, uh, stay in accent. When I was on set, so I did that for them. I don't know if it was to help me or if it was just to help them like talk to me. Um, but that was weird, but I did it anyway. No, I've never, I've never stayed in character or stayed in accent or anything like that. But these guys, these guys, when they were rejected by the music industry and, and basically laughed at, like overtly. And likened to the rapping proclaimers, which I actually think that's a type of proclaimers I'd be up for watching. Um, they were devastated. I mean, these were young kids with huge talent, but young fragile minds, you know?

• 20:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  And they were on the floor, um, and they thought, okay, well we'll take, you know, what are you wanting? And the Beastie Boys, you want Eminem, we'll give you it. And they adopted these West Coast skater boy, skater dude rap personas and went back and got their deal. With the same label, with the same tracks, but with different accents. And the message was you can't rap with that voice coming out of your mouth. You can't rap if you're Scottish, you're not allowed. Um, but they went even further, they went like, I don't know if you know many method actors. I don't, from what I can see from the outside looking in, it, it doesn't look particularly healthy for your, your head. Um, they did it for two and a half years and they'd never acted before. And even when they were on their own.

• 21:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Nobody around to catch them. They were just in deep character the whole time. And so the fact that it ends almost physically and mortally tragically for one of them is, is no real surprise to me because if you mess with your mind for long enough, you, you're going to pay the price.

• 21:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. You've said that this experience was maybe the most stressful of your career.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Of my career, not of my life, but definitely of my career.

• 21:49Josh Horowitz?

  So what, was it the shoot? Was it getting the money for it? Was it kind of finding the release? Like which part was the, the part that kind of gave you the most gray hair?

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Uh, I would say.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Getting the money for it was somebody else's job. I was like, always like, this is over to you guys. This is over to the producers and I'm going to be, I'm going to helm the artistic side of it, the logistical side of it. I'm going to prepare, prepare, prepare. We got into a lot of financial trouble at one point. And I turned to the producers and I said, you're going to need to fix this because when you fix this, I'm just going to assume you're going to be able to fix this. When you fix this, I'm going to need to be prepped to make this film. There's no point in me worrying that you're not going to fix it or coming to help you because when you get that money and we can make this film, I'm going to be on the back foot and I'm going to be improvising, making a shoot up on the day.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  And I was like, I'm going to just assume you're going to fix this. And when you need me to step away from prep and my crew, and you need me to come in like bend over and or kiss someone's ass or or let their ass touch my ass, or whatever it needs to happen to get the money of them, I will do that.

• 22:57Josh Horowitz?

  Until then, I got a movie to prep.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Until then, I got a movie to prep. And it was great. And I didn't need to give any sexual favors in the end, which is brilliant. Yeah. And we got the money.

• 23:08Josh Horowitz?

  So what was the stressful part then?

• 23:10Speaker 02

  The shoot, actually.

• 23:13Josh Horowitz?

  Really? Just the time, you didn't have enough time, you never have enough time?

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Never have enough time. We, look, we made this, this movie for, it's a, it's a low, it's not micro budget, which I would always sort of characterize as like hundreds of thousands of pounds or dollars. We had three million, three-ish million.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  That's not a lot.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  It's a lot, not a lot of money, especially this day and age. Like, we made last.

• 23:32Josh Horowitz?

  A period movie also. Technically speaking, it is.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  That we, we had to plan real hard to kind of try and get the period into it in ways that the period wasn't, not in ways that were expensive. It was crazy. And there's a lot we couldn't see. But I mean, I think we made Last Kind of Scotland for three million. And we shot for 10 weeks and we went to foreign countries and like, and all of that.

• 23:52Josh Horowitz?

  That's mind blowing. Wow.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  You make, and 10 weeks, we make California scheming in my home country, no travel really. And that three million lasted five weeks. We did a five week shoot, so we had 25 days. It's crazy just what's changed and how far the money won't go anymore. But, you know, planning, planning, planning. And I've worked with amazing directors and some bad ones. But I've worked with amazing directors and I've seen how much the prep and the planning can really help mitigate and compensate for a lack of finance.

• 24:23Josh Horowitz?

  I love how not only metaphorically does Trainspotting hang over this movie, it literally hangs over this movie thanks to this iconic kind of mural.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  I, I, that mural didn't exist. I made that.

• 24:34Josh Horowitz?

  Is that right?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And of all the sort of product placement, not product placement or trademarks or like, you know, clearance things you had to do for the movie, that was the easiest to get.

• 24:44Josh Horowitz?

  Who, is that the Danny Boyle question?

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Film Four, Channel Four or Film Four, who are the major, I think the major people behind it. They just said yes straight away. And it was, and I was like, and so you in McGregor's face? I don't need to ask you in McGregor. Apparently I didn't.

• 25:00Josh Horowitz?

  I must make you feel good as an actor yourself. Like, okay.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  And so I wanted something that was bad about the Scottish experience. And there was lots of versions of what I wanted on that wall because I wanted something bad that was kind of like graffitied on the wall at the beginning that could be rubbed off at the end.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  And then so this thing called the poll tax, which was terrible. And it was an awful tax that was basically only, it was tested on Scottish people, but never in the rest of the UK. So we had it for like five years before anybody, an extra tax that English people didn't have to pay. Oh, that, that was a big thing. I thought about putting that on it and then rubbing it off in the end. And some major Scottish football defeats or something like that made us feel bad about the collective subconscious, the Scottish psyche. But then I was like, what's going to like extend outside of Scotland and be culturally relevant or recognizable? And even Trainspotting, I think, is not instantly to everyone, but it traveled more, I felt. And I do think that, I don't think most people think it's shouting Scottish, but I do think sometimes we are made to feel as if it's supposed to be.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Where the kind of, you know, without complaining and moaning, I made a film that's really fun instead of complaining and moaning. So why am I complaining and moaning now? But the film is about that. The film is a fun way to sort of combat that feeling that I think we're made to feel sometimes as a kind of second class citizen nation sometimes.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy, Say Confused coming up.

• 26:34Speaker 00

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• 27:31Josh Horowitz?

  Let's shift gears. We've done, we've had a lot of kind of career conversations with, over the years. And we've also talked a lot about your, your loves, the things you grew up with. This is something I've done with some filmmakers over the years. This is, I call this the Happy, Say Confused movie matrix. I'm going to ask you some kind of like predilections, things you like more than others. So for instance, are you an Alien or Aliens guy?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Alien.

• 27:52Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. You like the horror, not the.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the tension and the performances, I think, I think, don't get me wrong, I love Aliens.

• 27:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you're not like.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Aliens is great.

• 27:59Josh Horowitz?

  By the way, Aliens sucks.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  My granda, growing up, he did, my granny and granda would always sleep in their bed. Revolutionary.

• 28:08Josh Horowitz?

  What?

• 28:08Speaker 02

  In Scotland, grandpains sleep in their beds. Right. It's wild. You guys need to come and visit. They'd always leave in their bed with their door open. So I'd walk upstairs and go past them on the landing up to my bedroom. And so I'd always know what they were watching in bed or whatever. And my granda would always watch Aliens. Aliens, the second one. It's a great film. I love it. But anyway.

• 28:29Josh Horowitz?

  Just your Bill Paxton saying game over out of your grandpa's.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Game over, man, game over. But for me, Alien, I think the performances in Aliens are exceptional. I think performances in Alien are so wildly natural. And I'm not just all about naturalistic acting. I like weird and stylized acting as well. But so natural and gritty and like, just like Ken Loach made that film.

• 28:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right. It's like working class work, like crew. That's just so.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, you know, you, you set that film in a council estate or a project, modern day. And there's like a serial killer running around chasing everybody. I don't think anybody's watching it. You can make that film about working class people in space. And that's the weird thing about sci-fi. I think it allows us to free ourselves of the kitchen sink mundane that makes us go, I don't want to watch that. Or, oh, I understand everything about that. And you make judgments and you make, you have preconceptions about it. You put that exact same story in space and suddenly we're leaning in, looking at the details and nuances as if they're brand new with no preconceptions. It's partly why I love sci-fi.

• 29:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. You were telling me the last time you were on the pod that like, you'd like to do more sci-fi.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd love to do more sci-fi.

• 29:42Josh Horowitz?

  I guess they're not doing it. I mean, obviously like there's Dini doing Dune, et cetera, but like horror is the thing. And you obviously have a real.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Horrify, horror sci-fi.

• 29:51Josh Horowitz?

  You're in there.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  I am in there. I am in there. Yeah, I'd love to do more sci-fi. But yeah, it's just, I mean, for me, one of the most relevant things, one of the most relevant things getting made back when, you know, when the multiple times that there was a war in the Middle East with the West and with us and was Battlestar Galactica. Dealing with insurgency and dealing with terrorism within your own borders and, and like, there was nobody else doing this. Battlestar Galactica, which was never that show back in the day.

• 30:23Josh Horowitz?

  No, it was so cheesy.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Came in with such, and I loved it back in the day as well. It was good. But like, came in with such sort of political and social penetration. It was amazing.

• 30:33Josh Horowitz?

  You have a horse in this racer too, but what's the best comic book movie of all time?

• 30:38Josh Horowitz?

  Wanted.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  And I I I loved lots of them. I like whoa, the best comic book movie of all time.

• 30:54Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you go old school Superman, you go Dark Knight, you go.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Dark Knight.

• 30:58Josh Horowitz?

  Dark Knight's hard to beat.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Dark Knight with the Joker, Heath Ledger, given incredible performance. That movie's exceptional. Um, I do like, uh, Infinity War. I think Infinity War is great.

• 31:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  I really think Infinity War is great. And not just because I'm in it, but I think, um, Days of Future Past is it was, it felt like it was one of the, maybe not the only one, but it felt like it was right at the beginning of all these mashups of cast and mashups of time and mashups of this and that. And, um, but actually really pulled it off brilliantly. And then I was, I was scared going into that movie because we'd gone such a different tangential direction with First Class.

• 31:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And it was a success and it was good and critically and financially did really well. And, and we all loved being in it. And then we went to Days of Future Past and it was, no, we're not doing that anymore.

• 31:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  We're kind of going back to what we did with Brian in ninety nine and two thousand. And I was like, oh, this feels like a misstep. Um, but I was wrong.

• 32:03Josh Horowitz?

  In a way, it also.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  The film's incredible.

• 32:05Josh Horowitz?

  And also in a way it kind of elevates in retrospect, First Class, which I absolutely adore because it's, it's more of a one off than any other.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:12Josh Horowitz?

  X-Men film and, and most comic book films.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  And that's, that's very much, uh, Jane and, uh, Matthew's voice all over that film. Um, and, and really also, I mean, it was a big cast, but it was also, it focused, it survived off its chemistry between like two characters that we love, but we never really get to spend a whole movie with them.

• 32:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  And we kind of got to spend a whole movie with this relationship, which I thought was the only time you've ever done it.

• 32:38Josh Horowitz?

  If Christopher Abbott does the finger thing, are you gonna sue? That's yours. That's your finger.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  It was in the comics.

• 32:45Josh Horowitz?

  But you made it.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  It was in the comments.

• 32:47Josh Horowitz?

  But you really made it.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  I pulled it from the comments.

• 32:49Josh Horowitz?

  I know, but.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  If he does double finger, then.

• 32:52Josh Horowitz?

  Then he'll be hearing from team Mac.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, I'm there for the double finger.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  We've heard that about you.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  There for the double finger. You just need, you can, you've got to pick the right time to.

• 33:02Josh Horowitz?

  Don't overshoot your fingers.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  To introduce the second finger.

• 33:07Josh Horowitz?

  Let's just let that sit for a second, everybody.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Just let that sit, everyone. There we go.

• 33:12Josh Horowitz?

  Is the worst thing about, if there is a bad thing about being in the X-Men movies, is it that you're gonna be asked about the X-Men movies until?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  I need to stop talking about the X-Men movies. And here's the reason. I've got a three million dollar independent Scottish film. Possibly the first Scottish film to be released in American cinemas in thirty years. I don't know, probably not, but maybe. And, uh, if I say anything about X-Men, that's the headline. Whereas I'm trying to sell California scheme.

• 33:35Josh Horowitz?

  But we're bringing them in. We're gonna suck them in. In the wake of it. Um, has the recent, have the recent Dune films given more life to your Dune? You think at all? Have people rediscovered your Dune?

• 33:47Speaker 02

  I think they've, they've forced my Dune further.

• 33:49Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Um.

• 33:51Josh Horowitz?

  What is one thing your Dune did better than Denise's Dune?

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Well, my June, I need to say it the way I actually say it, June, which sounds like the month June. We say June, not Dune.

• 34:02Josh Horowitz?

  What do I say? Oh, I say Dune.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Dune. Dune, for me, Dune means down.

• 34:06Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  We say I'm going down.

• 34:07Josh Horowitz?

  So what do I say?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  You say Dune.

• 34:09Josh Horowitz?

  But what should I say?

• 34:10Speaker 02

  What should you say?

• 34:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  I know you shouldn't. That's the way you say it. You should say it the way you say it.

• 34:14Josh Horowitz?

  How do you say it?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  June.

• 34:15Josh Horowitz?

  Dune.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Like with a J.

• 34:17Josh Horowitz?

  June.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  June.

• 34:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, June.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  June.

• 34:19Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  So, um, my June was, has, I, I think, I don't even know where he's going with his next film. My story started after what he's made. So this is not quite apples to apples.

• 34:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Do you like the, you like what Denise has done?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  I love it. I love it. I think they're brilliant. I think, um, I think they're really quite, um, words that are reductive like epic, but, um, yeah, the, he's really captured the religious zealot and the religious sort of manipulation part of it, I think, which is sort of key to it all. Um, and the doomed kind of, um, figurehead that Paul is, knowing he kind of knows, he knows it's never gonna work. Do you know what I mean? And he, but he's doing it for someone else so that it can work, which is who I ended up playing in my June.

• 35:11Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, you, you pop up at the end of this, this June?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 35:16Josh Horowitz?

  It's your, what, were you like son, grandson, great, great grandson?

• 35:20Speaker 02

  I was son of, I was Paul's son.

• 35:21Josh Horowitz?

  You were a son, right?

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Late to the second.

• 35:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  So I was late. I was Oscar, I would have been Oscar Isaac's grandson.

• 35:27Josh Horowitz?

  I see. Look at the, the silver mane of hair, the same thing. You got it.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Who's it was? It wasn't Oscar and her one, obviously. It was, um, William Hurt. William Hurt was, um, was Paul's dad.

• 35:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  What was his name? Late to the first.

• 35:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, there you go. Uh, here's a random one. Last time I spoke to your buddy Fassbender, he told me an amazing audition story when he opened up for Mad Max back in the day. Did you get a Mad Max audition?

• 35:48Speaker 02

  I did not. Man, thanks, George. Love your work, big man.

• 35:56Josh Horowitz?

  You're probably a bigger Mad Max fan than all the guys that went up for that one.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  I don't know, actually. I mean, I love, I remember I watched the first Mad Max. Cause I, I feel like most people who've seen all the new Mad Maxes, of course, they've seen Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome.

• 36:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Not a lot of people have actually watched the first Mad Max, which is almost a kind of wilder film.

• 36:16Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, totally.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Than any of the stuff that comes after.

• 36:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Road Warrior gets, it's, it's much bigger. Mad Max feels like dirty, dangerous, like.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  And also like much closer to the world we actually lived in at that time.

• 36:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Less sort of like world building. So therefore it felt like, is this it now?

• 36:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Or is it post apocalypse? Or is it just, there's these terrifying people everywhere, do you know what I mean? It's, it was real, really messed my head as a really young kid. Cause I, I used, I slept in my great grandmother's bed quite a lot.

• 36:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  And I'd just wake up at two in the morning. She'd be watching whatever was on telly. Cause she was a super old lady and she, you know, older people don't sleep as well and all that stuff. And I remember like Mad Max, I'd be like,

• 36:58Speaker 02

  I was like, I really need to start sleeping in my own bed.

• 37:01Josh Horowitz?

  This explains a lot. I want to set the record straight on something. I was an idiot. One of the times we spoke, we talked about Star Trek and you talked about how you, I think, turned down a role that they wanted you for. And for some reason I said McCoy. Obviously they wanted you to play Scotty.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  I won't be drawn on that. But, um, I do remember I, I met, I met JJ. Um, I think I met him for lunch at like the Four Seasons in, in LA. Uh, and they were asking me to come along and play. And, um, and I said, I'll play Kirk. And, um, and I said, but do you know something? And he said, do you want to come camera test for Kirk? And I was like, no. I was like, I remember saying to him, right? And I'm not taking credit for anything because JJ Abrams, I said it earlier today in a different podcast. I've done every podcast in the world today. Um.

• 37:50Josh Horowitz?

  Just today.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  I, when I was describing sci-fi films, I loved that, that first Star Trek movie that you made. I love it so much. And anyway, I said, I'm not going to come test for it because I'm not right for it. And I was like, I just feel like he's, you know, the old Kirk was like the quarterback. But your Kirk, the way you've written this, because it was brilliant. It was a great script. I was like, your, your Kirk is like quarterback gone, gone bad, like gone wrong. And then the story is like, how does he become whole again? How does he become the Kirk we know? And, um, and you couldn't have got a better interpretation of my direction

• 38:25Speaker 02

  than the Kirk we got. He's amazing in it. He's, he's amazing.

• 38:28Josh Horowitz?

  That movie is a miracle of casting, what they did in that.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  It's so, so good.

• 38:33Josh Horowitz?

  Hardcore Trek fans like you and I, like, it was like how you possibly recast and they did it.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Totally. And he, see, when I saw that film, I was like, JJ, the way he wrote it, I would, I didn't give JJ that note. It's not like I'm trying to say like JJ heard that and then he went and got Chris Pine. That's not what happened. The script was just so brilliantly written. It was, I hate this term in Hollywood, but undeniable, the kind of actor you needed for it. And he's got that. He's got that sort of, um, he's beautiful. And he's such a sort of stud. And at the same time, there's something just a bit

• 39:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  about him, which I'm sure he would love to hear. He's like, who wants to be just the kind of standard?

• 39:10Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, he resisted that. That's this whole thing. Like the Princess Diaries, like print, like he hated that shit.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  And his like balance of, his balance of like seriousness, authority, um, earnestness and like winking comedy. And his nods to that stuff that Shatner used to be able to do so well. He's, you couldn't have done better.

• 39:25Josh Horowitz?

  What goes into a tummies audition? What did they make you do?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Well, um, do you know what? I honestly don't remember too well.

• 39:32Josh Horowitz?

  It out?

• 39:33Speaker 02

  I really.

• 39:33Josh Horowitz?

  Traumatic.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I know. It was kind of like trying to get funding for California's game.

• 39:38Josh Horowitz?

  Dark, dark shit.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 39:41Josh Horowitz?

  Put on these goat feet now for me.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Uh, I was possessed by the ghost of C.S. Lewis. Um.

• 39:48Josh Horowitz?

  You really don't remember? It's just one, another audition?

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Vaguely, vaguely. I remember, I remember sitting with Andrew Adamson, um, and talking afterwards, but I don't remember doing any acting. Um, I remember them kind of explaining to me that they had, had a different actor to play the role. Like somebody else had the job. And he was older, he was, I think he must have been in his mid thirties or something like that, and he was an established actor. And, um, and then when he kind of started to audition all the Pevensies, the young children, and they saw, I think they saw thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people, and they were starting to do the scenes with Tomnus, with prospective, um, potential Lucy's, they just made a massive realization that, you know, as much as Mr. Tomnus is cute, and

• 40:33Speaker 02

  they, like, they do become genuine friends, he is also somebody who's kidnapping her and taking this little girl back to his house and effectively drugging her and then giving her into bondage, uh, to the, the, the white witch. And they were like, this is, this is, we can't have a man do this.

• 40:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  And so they were like, we need a boy. And so they came to me, I think I was like twenty-two or twenty-three, and I looked about fourteen, um, and it had no threat.

• 41:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  I was so benevolent.

• 41:03Josh Horowitz?

  Little did they know what was to come.

• 41:04Speaker 07

  Little did they know.

• 41:05Josh Horowitz?

  Is that as like happy a moment early in the career to get that role?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  I, those, that BBC Chronicles of Narnia that was made in like nineteen eighty, whatever. Um, I watched that, we had it video, we taped it, and I played it all of the time. And the book, cause the book is like, and you're done. It's like, it's one of those, it's like The Hobbit, you're like, you, you fly through it. Um, I read that book so many times. Um, so to be involved and play Mr. Tomnus was, it was a dream come true for me. Honestly, that sounds so, Gleb, it was genuinely a dream.

• 41:41Josh Horowitz?

  No, I know, it means a lot to you, yeah.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:43Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, we, we talked before, early on about kind of like the awards part of the thing, and how that can feel a little icky or whatever, but like, when Split came around, there was real talk, justifiably so, that you should be recognized. It still remains one of the most impressive things I've seen on film, full stop. And I think many would agree.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 42:00Josh Horowitz?

  Did you get, I don't know, did you get caught up in that, in that a little bit? Like when like people started to be like, I know it's a genre movie, but like this guy deserves his props.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  I got this bar of gold bullion, and I crafted my own, and I had a ceremony from it. No. Um, uh, uh, no, not particularly. I didn't think it would get welcomed into that sphere much. I mean, I think some horror performances or scary movie performances are kind of breaking through now.

• 42:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  But even then, it's not that many. It's not like, it's for the amount of good work that's done in that field, I still don't see enough representation of that good work. But then, I kind of feel like that with all award shows anyway, in every genre, I'm like, these movies that you've nominated are generally speaking really good. Every now and again, there's the stuff and then you're like, but, um, they're generally really good. But there's like another twenty, forty, fifty equally, if not better, good out there, but they just, they aren't like at what level, or they're not part of the club or something like that. So the fact that horror or scary movies ain't so much part of the club was no big surprise to me. It's getting a wee bit different now. Um, but I wasn't bothered.

• 43:13Josh Horowitz?

  Indy Naberetti is like, seems to be like someone that for obsession, I don't know if you've seen that one.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:18Josh Horowitz?

  That people seem to be like.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  I think she's exceptional in that film.

• 43:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  She's so, so good. And her ability to pivot, which I think is part of what, um, people liked in my performance, uh, here I am likening myself to the latest brilliant actor. Um, no, seriously.

• 43:35Josh Horowitz?

  I was Indy Naberetti first, guys. I was there first.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  I was, I was, I was pulling all those moves.

• 43:39Josh Horowitz?

  I had twenty-four characters, just for the record. She did two.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  It was, it was really hard. It was really hard. Um, she, I think, but I think the pivoting from moment to moment, and they've kind of right, the psychological right angle she's capable of in that film is disturbing in itself. It's not just impressive, it's not just like, wow, that's dexterous acting. It's also part of what's scary about her as well, because we look at behavior like that and find it so alien.

• 44:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  And yet it's in the, the physical form of a human being, it freaks us out. And I think like, I think what she's doing in that film as well, as much as it's a magical sort of, um, torture that's been put upon her, it, it is, it is also sort of representative of a mental issue that she's suffering.

• 44:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Um, and I think that the, the heart of a lot of horror is, or scary movies that aren't necessarily horror, uh, there is a sort of mental instability. And cause I think one of the things we as humans find so scary in a social situation is mental instability and all those. It's very hard for people to be around, to take on board, to confront in a way that isn't just like, oh, I feel sorry for you now, I don't need to talk to you.

• 44:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Cause I don't like to look at it, I don't like to be around it, I don't know what you're gonna do. It's, it's really uncomfortable and unsettling for people. And, um, and I think at the heart of a lot of that stuff is, is, is psychological trauma and instability. She just plays that so well.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  Was it, um, you've also done like a lot of work in recent years in like the audiobook form, Sandman.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:11Josh Horowitz?

  Harry Potter. Was it meaningful to do Mete, Moody in Harry Potter? Did you have fun with that one?

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Uh, there's one scene in that that's why I did it, and it's the one where he shows Harry the picture. And that was the reason I did it. I thought it was amazing. Also as well, cause it's kind of written, he's written as a Scottish character.

• 45:26Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  And, um, and they, I think they made him Irish when Brendan did it, and I was gutted about that. But Brendan's great, I'm not slagging him. He's brilliant. So when they came to a Scottish person to do it Scottish, I was like, aye, let's do this. But, um, it was, it was for that picture. But also as well, I just had one called Recall, um, which, um, uh, the, uh, J D Kirk wrote, uh, and that is the first like proper full-on narration that I've done. All the other audio stuff I've done is like acting.

• 45:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  And dramatized stuff. Uh, this is the first like full-on, just I narrated sort of seventy hours of whatever, not that much, but like a lot.

• 46:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 46:08Josh Horowitz?

  Doing all the, all the characters, kind of like the whole.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Doing all the characters. And it was, it is one of the biggest workouts I've ever had as an actor.

• 46:15Josh Horowitz?

  I can imagine, yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  And I, and I loved it as well. Um, and that's gone down really well as well. And we're gonna see if we can turn it into something.

• 46:21Josh Horowitz?

  I, I always think about, do you ever see it again? Everything goes back to Patrick Stewart. I remember seeing his Christmas Carol on stage.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  I'd kneel in front of a picture of him every morning.

• 46:28Josh Horowitz?

  This is the, this is the Patrick Stewart podcast, by the way. Uh, no, that guy could do anything.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  It's called Engage.

• 46:35Josh Horowitz?

  It writes itself. Wait, so back, uh, one more question on the Mete Moody, Harry Potter. I just had Kit Harrington who's reprising his role in the live action. Any interest in doing that character or another character in the live action series?

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I ain't setting stuff up. That's headline fodder. This is headline fodder.

• 46:52Josh Horowitz?

  But that's real.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  I know for California, I gotta sell California's game.

• 46:54Josh Horowitz?

  This is selling it.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  I'm telling California, just give it.

• 46:57Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, he's playing Voldemort. We just, we just confirmed it.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Just saying. Oh, good.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Anywho.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Anyhow.

• 47:09Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, let's end here. You have an amazing filmography. Let's pit some of your films against each other. You're gonna choose the best James McAvoy movie of all time.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Uh, the movie, not, not like my performance, but the movie.

• 47:19Josh Horowitz?

  Do it however you want. And it's no, no judgment. Is it today, at this moment, for instance?

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Got you.

• 47:24Josh Horowitz?

  Wanted versus Split, who wins today?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  I. I think Split.

• 47:33Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Narnia versus Speak No Evil.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 47:39Josh Horowitz?

  They're so different, I know. That's the beauty of it.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  They're so different.

• 47:42Josh Horowitz?

  Are they that different? They're basically the same movie.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yep. I'm Aslan at the end of that movie. That means Paddy's coming back. That means I'm gonna get resurrected. Uh, and Paddy was some sort of modern day avatar for the Christ figure. That's weird. Uh, I'm gonna say, just cause I had more, oh, I, oh, God.

• 48:08Josh Horowitz?

  Just today, just at this moment. Not binding, don't worry.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Just cause it's more, uh, complicated and messed up, and it makes you laugh at things that you shouldn't laugh at. Speak No Evil.

• 48:18Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, if he goes Narnia after saying that, that's weird.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Narnia, the dark comedy, right?

• 48:23Josh Horowitz?

  Atonement versus Last King of Scotland?

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Uh, oh, that's still not fair.

• 48:29Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  They're like two of the best I've ever done.

• 48:31Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I peaked too soon, didn't I?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Uh, Atonement, I think Atonement, Atonement and Filth are my two favorite films.

• 48:37Josh Horowitz?

  Um, sorry, I didn't put Filth in here, but it is great. You're absolutely right. But here's the last one. X-Men First Class versus Days of Future Past. First Class, Days of Future Past, which one?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Cause as, as you said, because it's standalone, for me, First Class.

• 48:54Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Um, but I think Days of Future Past is up there as one of the best sort of superhero movies.

• 48:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so now it's down to Split versus Speak No Evil.

• 49:06Josh Horowitz?

  Leak no evil?

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Split no evil.

• 49:09Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, no.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Split no glass.

• 49:10Josh Horowitz?

  We won't allow it.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Uh, split or speak no evil, split or speak no evil. I think, uh, my, uh.

• 49:22Josh Horowitz?

  You got this.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Split. Evil.

• 49:27Josh Horowitz?

  No, we're doing split. You said split. Uh, atonement versus first class.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Atonement versus first class, atonement.

• 49:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, here we go. This is it. Split versus atonement. The greatest James McAvoy film of all time is?

• 49:42Speaker 02

  A splitment. Atonement, I think. Atonement. Yeah, I think Joe Wright made a modern day masterpiece. I think he's amazing.

• 49:50Josh Horowitz?

  No argument. You've made a lot of bangers.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  I've been lucky, man. I've had such a good career. Touch wood, it's only going to be over in about two years.

• 49:57Josh Horowitz?

  Um, what a, what a run though we had.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  It's been good weather last year. I'm just going to go direct like soap opera. Um, I'll probably direct more and more and more and act less and less and less, I think.

• 50:08Josh Horowitz?

  Do both.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  I'll try and do both. I'll try and do both. I mean, I don't get paid two bucks fifty for being a director. So like, I'll, I'll probably need to act, but, um.

• 50:15Josh Horowitz?

  That's sweet wanted money, the residuals.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Sweet, sweet wanted money. I don't get too much money from, from wanted.

• 50:22Josh Horowitz?

  What's the, what's the residual check that comes most?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  The only movie that you've always got like a good backend and there's like some in your contract. You get backend here and backend there. I very rarely see anything from anything. You get the odd check for like, you know, a couple of hundred quid here or sometimes you get checks for like, like twenty five cents and all that. And you're like, it literally costs more to post it. Instead for me, check it, cash it. But, um, the only one that really consistently pays me is Split.

• 50:49Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Oh, cause we made it for, I think it was made for like six million or something like that.

• 50:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And let's say they spent thirty advertising it.

• 50:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Um, in our first weekend, we made forty. So we were in profit.

• 51:01Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  So our first residual check came at the end of the first weekend.

• 51:05Josh Horowitz?

  That's how I know how to do it on the right, the right level.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Knight, Knight is super smart in so many ways. And he's also, I have to say, I took, very consciously took from many of the directors that I worked with. Um, and subconsciously as well, but, um, uh, what the thing that I took away from him was his preparedness. Cause you know, he made that film and glass on incredibly modest budgets. And very focused on how he would maximize his day and maximize, um, his shots and maximize what he got out of the story that he did by just being incredibly well prepared. Uh, and being able to share that and communicate that with the crew. Joe Wright, I would say as well, is the one that I absolutely ripped off with how to communicate with the crew

• 51:51Speaker 02

  in terms of what I want and in terms of what the scene is meant to be. And, and how he managed to like engage the full sort of, um, capability of a crew. Cause a crew of filmmakers are like, that's a, that's an incredibly deep resource. And if you can activate all that, and he did that so well and in kind of benevolent manipulation, I guess. I keep calling it manipulation. It's not, but it's like.

• 52:15Josh Horowitz?

  But making them feel like they have a seat at the table and they're part, they're invested in.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  He made, he made the crew feel like filmmakers that day more than any other person I've worked with. And that's like, you make, you make somebody feel like a filmmaker with that amount of talent. They're going to bring it to the table. It was incredible. So I totally ripped them off with that.

• 52:30Josh Horowitz?

  In the best way. It's on the screen. Congratulations, my friend. Honestly, California scheming. A great piece of work launching the new, um, directing career of one James McAvoy. Here we go.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Cheers.

• 52:41Josh Horowitz?

  New stuff to talk about. Everybody support it. Support James. Uh, we broke news today. He's Voldemort. This is so exciting.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Thank you for that exclusive.

• 52:51Josh Horowitz?

  Not saying anything. He's just laughing.

• 52:54Josh Horowitz?

  You're wheezing. What happened?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  I'm losing my voice. I've been, I've done five days of press. The film's so good that after we released it in April in the UK, the cast are all working tons. None of them can come to America to sell this thing.

• 53:06Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, this poor man.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  I'm doing, that's why I'm doing every podcast that's ever existed.

• 53:10Josh Horowitz?

  Don't diminish this.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  The, the, the studio that's, um, distributing it are actually putting me in a time machine. To go back to when podcasts first existed.

• 53:18Josh Horowitz?

  Doing all time radio.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Do old ones.

• 53:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's great. You're doing Marc Maron. That's great.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  It's going to be brilliant. It's brilliant. So I'm losing my voice.

• 53:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. It's good to see you.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Nice. You too, man.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip, the Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone.