408. JFK: Nixon, McCarthy, & The Dark Side of Camelot (Part 2)

After his brother’s death in the skies over Britain, a young JFK must fulfil his father’s dynastic dream, but does he want it? The whole family supports his campaign to become Senator, and a new character enters his life… Jacqueline Kennedy. Anita Anand is joined by historian Frederik Logevall to discuss JFK’s entrance into politics. Join the Empire Club: Unlock the full Empire experience – with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to miniseries and live show tickets, exclusive book discounts, a members-only newsletter, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at empirepoduk.com. Email: [email protected] Instagram: @empirepoduk Blue Sky: @empirepoduk X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Imogen Marriott Editor: Bruno Di Castri and Josh Smith Social Producer: Charlie Johnson Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers, the rest is football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and Cs apply.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply, see site or store for details.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arndt, and we are here for part two on our series on John F. Kennedy. And I'm delighted to say back with us the Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Frederick Logavale. Frederick, thank you very much for coming back. Last time, we covered the Sicily second son, who against every expectation becomes a bestselling author, he becomes a war hero. The golden one, his older brother, the man who would be king, dies in the skies over England. And now his father's entire dynastic dream is resting on Jack. Do we have anything from Jack about how he felt at this time, about this great weight

• 2:21Speaker 02

  of expectation being transferred to his shoulders?

• 2:24Speaker 03

  I think his brother's death was, as it was for the whole family, deeply traumatizing for Jack, for all their differences, for all the sibling rivalry between these brothers. They were very close. I mean, they had been each other's playmates since when they were small, and they were at Choate together, they were then at Harvard together. He had lost, in a sense, almost the kind of twin, I think you could say. I do think that because of his longstanding interest in politics and his desire to perhaps to enter public service, the idea of going to law school didn't appeal to him, the idea

• 3:07Speaker 03

  of entering business, heaven forbid, I don't want to do what the old man is doing. I think because of that interest that predates his brother's death, that part of it, I think, is less, it requires less of a transformation in Jack's trajectory. That's not a good way of putting it, but I think that it came pretty easily to him when his father said, you know, you're now going to bear this particular burden. I think Jack was ready for it.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  And he doesn't waste any time, because it's 1946, when we should look at the 11th District of Massachusetts. Now, first of all, we ought to talk about Massachusetts as a state and the 11th District in particular. For the non-Americans in our listeners, what was Massachusetts like in 1946?

• 3:56Speaker 03

  It was an important state in the Union. It was the so-called cradle of American, you know, American democracy. It had a hugely important role in the nation's founding.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Boston Tea Party people, yeah.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Yes. And by the way, Rose Kennedy insisted that her children visit all these places when they were small. So she took them around, and Jack, and I think among his siblings, Jack in particular, was fascinated by this history. But that's Massachusetts. It's also worth noting that it's highly, a high number of Catholics. About half of the electorate in Massachusetts was Catholic. And here we have an Irish Catholic family, the Kennedys.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Which doesn't hurt at all. But it is also, I mean, the thing about the 11th District is that it is one of the poorest districts in the entire state. I mean, it may be Catholic. And I just wonder whether, you know, this candidate, who is a Harvard man with a private income, whose dad is known to be sort of quaffing on champagne. I mean, on paper, he looks to everybody like a carpetbagger. How is he received, though, by the 11th District?

• 5:06Speaker 03

  I mean, what's so interesting about this district is that it also includes Harvard. It includes Cambridge. So you have, as you say, a very poor part of the 11th District, but you also have Cambridge, which has not only the university, but it has a very fancy residential area along Brattle Street, which is still true today. It's this interesting mix. I think he is seen by some people, including his competitors for the Democratic nomination. By the way, the only thing that matters here is to get the Democratic nomination. Because once you have that, the general election will go to whoever the Democratic nominee is. It's a highly democratic district and state. Some people see him as this carpetbagger, but he shows even now, Anita, as this skinny

• 5:51Speaker 03

  29-year-old with no political experience, not a good speaker. He shows a certain connection. To see Jack Kennedy in action is to like Jack Kennedy. I think that's evident from his first campaign.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, describe how, what does he do and how hard is he working?

• 6:09Speaker 03

  Well, he's working extremely hard. So that we should note, he's willing to go from early morning until late at night. Again, I don't think his health ailments were as important as some historians have suggested because of what he's able to do. I think there's a kind of natural charisma that he has that is hard to describe, as it often is, time and again, and we have lots of evidence of this from the period, from 1946. People would come and say, I don't know anything really about this Jack Kennedy. I heard that he was a war hero, and of course, we all know Joe Kennedy is one of America's richest men. You know, the Kennedys are famous. But they don't know much about the candidate, and yet when they see him, they decide, you know, I like this guy.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  I'm not sure I'll vote for him, but I like this guy. And I think he builds on that, and then the hard work, his father's money, the associates and the aides that he has with him, all of this contributes to him winning this primary in the 11th District, and then of course, coasting to victory in the fall.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Well, but I mean, winning doesn't even begin to cover it, because this is actually otherwise for the Democrats, a catastrophic year nationally. But Kennedy wins, it's like 69,000-odd votes to 26,000 votes. I mean, it is a massacre. But what I like, and it's something that you quote yourself, is that, you know, he's acutely aware of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, because he says, he says to one of the people working for him, in a year or so, they'll be saying, I'm the worst son of a bitch that ever lived. So, you know, he's acutely aware that this is a precarious situation, even though he has this huge mandate.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree. And the quote gives you some insight into Jack Kennedy, which I will confess, I find quite appealing, which is that he's a realist. He's able to view his own political standing with a kind of profound detachment. This is true both early on, and it'll be true when he's in the White House. He's an unsentimental analyst of his own political position. And so, and you also see his wit, his kind of self-deprecating wit come into play here, where he's saying, yeah, in a year.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  They're going to hate my guts. What I'm absolutely obsessed with is that when he arrives in Washington as this bright young congressman, you know, with shiny-faced film star looks. There are two other figures who arrive at the same time, who I think our listeners may have heard of. Richard Nixon comes in on the same wave, and so does Joe McCarthy of the future McCarthy witch hunts. And they knew each other. I mean, you know, what was the relationship like between them?

• 8:50Speaker 03

  Well, let's start with Nixon and Kennedy, since they're going to be opposing each other in 1960. Fascinating pair.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  You know, both veterans of the Pacific War. One grows up on the West Coast, one on the East. One is the son of a, let's say, struggling grocer. And then Jack Kennedy, by this point, his father is one of America's richest men. And so there's, it's just a really interesting relationship. It's a good relationship. They're actually friendly with each other. Nixon occasionally comes to Jack Kennedy's home for dinners. They interact well in Congress. So that's a fascinating relationship. And then with Joe McCarthy, even more interesting, maybe, is that Joe McCarthy is very close with Joe Kennedy. And Joe Kennedy supports McCarthy.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  Joe McCarthy dates, or at least goes on, let's say, a date or two with a couple of Jack's sisters. And so there is this connection between two Irish Catholics that will prove later, when Joe McCarthy becomes a notorious red-baiter, will prove a complication for Jack Kennedy. And in terms of how he's going to respond to the red-baiting of Senator McCarthy. But as you say, they come into Washington at the same time.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, sort of this extraordinary intake in forty-six. But, you know, the McCarthy challenge, let's put a pin in that because he has another challenge a year later. Because he's, I think it's nineteen forty-seven, he's on a trip to London and collapses dramatically. And a doctor is called and it looks really grave. You know, it's like a throwback to his childhood. And the doctor tells, and we have this from Pamela Churchill, Winston Churchill's daughter, that he says he doesn't have long to live. I mean, it's that serious.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, and there's a mystery surrounding this particular episode. At least for me, I was not able to get a very good handle on what exactly happened. But it's exactly as you say, knowledgeable people, physicians, who

• 10:55Speaker 03

  met with JFK, thought this could be the end. And this, of course, is one of three or four times in his life when it looks like the end is nigh. I think it contributes to a certain fatalism in the young Jack Kennedy. That, you know what? I don't know if I have long to live here. And therefore I should make the best of what I have. But you're absolutely right that this was a really difficult moment. Didn't last all that long. He recovers almost as quickly as he's fallen ill. Nobody can quite understand what happened. But for a few moments there, who knows?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  It looks like the end. And what it is, I mean, it turns out it's Addison's disease, which hasn't even got a name at this point. It's not even got that name until later, I think. And it's the same, correct me if I'm wrong, because I may be making this up. But isn't this the same thing that killed Jane Austen at a very young age, at forty-one?

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Yes, it's an adrenal deficiency. By the time we're into the late nineteen forty's, which is where we are now, it's more manageable. It'll become more manageable still in the nineteen fifty's. So obviously, in an earlier era for Jane Austen, the remedies, the medications, the treatments were not yet available. But indeed, it's the same basic illness.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  And did the family just close ranks and hide it? I mean, how, because it's not a good look for a young thrusting congressman who would be, you know, something bigger, to be sickly.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  They closed ranks, as you say, and they hid it. And in fact, they would continue to hide it. It was, as you say, a bad look. Or at least, at least there was a sense, let's not take any chances that we don't have to take. Yes, we can make the argument that it's now treatable, that Jack's life is not in any danger. Therefore, you should continue to vote for him. But why take the chance? Let's just make sure nobody knows about this. And that ruse is maintained.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Keep coming, carry on. And that sort of brings me to this idea of the family enterprise in this. Because Joe may be gone, but Bobby Kennedy is still around. And there's still seven other Kennedys and a mother and father. And they do start working like a machine getting behind Jack, don't they? And tell us a little bit about how that works.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  They all do, with the exception, of course, of Rosemary, who underwent a disastrous lobotomy at the order of her father, right before Pearl Harbor in nineteen forty-one.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Gosh, why?

• 13:25Speaker 03

  She had developed much more slowly than her siblings.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  And the parents tried every manner of treatment. As a teenager, was reading at about a third grade level.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  And we should, I mean, it's a horrible thing that happened and a horrible decision by Joe Kennedy. The only thing I will say is that expert opinion in nineteen forty-one told, assured the senior Mr. Kennedy, your daughter will come out of this better than she comes in. This is a revolutionary treatment, the lobotomy. We've had tremendous success with this. In effect, take our word for this, Mr. Kennedy. You should order this procedure for Rosemary. So he does. I only mention that because otherwise this seems to our modern sensibilities, an outrageous, even criminal decision on his part.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  But he was following medical expertise and she ends up much worse than when she went in. She ends up living in an institution for the rest of her quite long life.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  That's Rosemary.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  The rest of them, as you say, are all behind Jack's effort. Even little Teddy, who's just a kid, he's fourteen, is helping out by running errands for Jack as he campaigns for the eleventh district. And then as he becomes a congressman, it is a family affair all the way through.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  It's an interesting time because the Kennedys, I suppose this is the beginning of Camelot. Because if you've got this entire family, which is on hyperdrive, you know, they have these things called Kennedy tees, where thousands of women are invited to meet the candidate. And it is a little bit like one of those, I don't know, Comic-Con sort of moments where people are screaming and begging to have something signed. There is a fever about the Kennedys that's developing.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Oh, no question. And, you know, nobody knew how these tees would go, by the way. There was this idea, why don't we try receptions? Where we can invite, and we do invite, women in Massachusetts to come and meet Jack Kennedy. I think people sensed that he has a certain charisma. He's going to have a special appeal to female voters that was already evident.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  You'd have to be blind not to realize that. I mean, my God, yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, but they decide, let's give this a whirl. We'll try this. And it proves, especially in the nineteen fifty-two race for the Senate, proves, I think, really important in terms of driving support for Jack Kennedy. But what's interesting about these tees is that his mother is centrally involved and speaks at them, and also his sisters. So you've got young Kennedy women and the matriarch trying to convince, and not having to work very hard, I don't think, to convince female voters in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, please, you know, vote for Jack.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  And I mean, you mentioned he's, you know, going for it in nineteen fifty-two. He's going after Henry Cabot Lodge. He has history, by the way, with his own grandfather. I think he beat Honey Fitz, didn't he, for a Senate seat back in nineteen sixteen?

• 16:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a very interesting history between the Fitzgeralds and the Lodges.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, this is the year that he's going to do a massive step up politically. But it is incidentally the same year as a plate of asparagus is going to change his life. Shall we? Shall we do it now, Frederick? Let's start with this bit of the story that everyone is totally obsessed with. JFK and Jackie. Take us to that fateful dinner and that limp asparagus.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  It's in nineteen fifty-two, so he is running, as you say, for the Senate. And a couple, the Bartletts, Charlie Bartlett is a very distinguished journalist in Washington, and his wife Martha, know both people. They know Jack and they know Jackie. And they say, who knows which one of them said it to the other? But they say, let's invite them both to dinner. Because they would be a suitable match for each other. And they do. Who knows how accurate the story is, but I certainly used it. There is a moment during this meal in which a connection is made. Maybe sparks even fly, who knows, quietly. But in which a certain plate of asparagus enters into the conversation.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  And he leans over the green, looks into her bouvier eyes.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  Yes, oh, this is so good.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Almost puts his elbow in the asparagus and decides, you know, actually, I think you're interesting and I think I'd like to be with you. So he leans over and he asks for a date and she says yes. And we should say, actually, we should give Jackie her dues. Because Jacqueline Bouvier is something very, very special, isn't she? How old is she? And, you know, what kind of family is she from?

• 18:19Speaker 03

  She is, at this point, about twenty. So she's a young woman and comes from not very wealthy, but a distinguished family. And is, of course, Catholic herself, which is key, I think, for the Kennedys. By the way, I should interject here that Joe Kennedy. Approves from Jackie, approves of Jackie from day one. In fact, they form a very kind of tight relationship, which I think is interesting. But Jackie is very intelligent, which appeals to Jack. She has interests that he doesn't have, but he admires. She's interested in art. She's interested in culture. She's interested in music. She has spent

• 19:00Speaker 03

  a year in France, so she speaks the language beautifully. A very refined young woman. While Brad has gone to to elite schools for women.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  And she's elegant. I mean, you can see why they'd want to put them together on a poster because they do match each other, sort of, you know, beauty for beauty. And and her with her sort of swan neck and elegance and these sort of beautiful eyes.

• 19:26Speaker 03

  It's it's so true. I'll just say here, Anita, that if the Kennedys are not the most photographed family in the history of the world, it has to be close. And so for me, as a biographer, endless number of images. In fact, it's really difficult often to choose which one you want to include in your in your in your volumes. But when the two of them are together in the photo, it is an extraordinary couple. There's no question about the two of them together.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Some of Jack Kennedy's ex-girlfriends have been, well, I mean, you know, very good looking, but not hitting high points on the IQ marks. I mean, that's the remarks of his friends, you know, then she's completely different. She's well read and she's clever. But she's also, I mean, there's a quote that you've got in your book, it sort of suggests a fatalism from her. Here was a man who did not want to marry, said Jacqueline Bouvier at the time, perhaps thinking, and and also, she says, and there's another quote that that you use, which is when she was asked about what she thought the influence this young man would have on her life, she says profound, perhaps disturbing, which means that she had a bit of foresight that this was going to be a rough ride.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  I think she absolutely did. She told girlfriends and others, all men cheat. It's just, it's in there, it's in there, you know, it's what they do. My father cheated on my mother continually. Jack's father cheated on Rose continually. And so I think she was steeling herself for what was to come. And she had a sense of this correctly, as it turned out, from an early point, which is on some level, both heartbreaking and, you know, insightful in terms of what it tells about what she expects. I think it still hurts, as it will almost always do, from the day it begins on his part. And it begins

• 21:23Speaker 03

  before their wedding, which is in 1953. And of course, it continues thereafter.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  There's a quote from a journalist who who was talking about Joe Kennedy, but this could so go for the the son as well. Another thing a rich man had, like Caviar, it wasn't sex, it was part of the image, his idea of manliness, that actually, you know, whatever the cost may be to Jackie, this was part of what it was to be a man for JFK.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  I think like father, like son, in that respect, no question. And of course, the thing that we can never understand, at least I can't, is fully why Joe Kennedy not only modeled this kind of behavior, which would have been bad enough, but he in fact kind of goaded his two older sons. He, in fact, basically dared them to try to match his exploits. And if you can imagine a 15 year old being told this by his father, it's um, yeah, I don't think I'll ever fully understand that.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Oh, it's warping. It's warping. It's it. But it's so of the time. I mean, just before we go to the break, because we're going to come back with some more politics, but I know some people hate it when you do pap psychology. So let's do some now. I mean, he was close, he was close to his mother. He loved his mom. You know, if if any, I sort of get the impression out of all the children, Jack was closest to his mother, and he must have seen what the infidelities had done to her, you know, sort of diminishing her, making her smaller, more isolated throughout her life. And yet he was happy to do this to the woman he would marry.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's right. I think his, I think his relationship with mother was complicated because I think there are times when he doesn't respect her. I think when she traveled sometimes by herself to Europe for weeks at a time when he was little, I think that hurt him. I think with the fact that she didn't come to visit him, as we were talking about earlier, at Chotun elsewhere, when he was in the infirmary, that hurt him. And yet, at the same time, as you point out, he knows, I think, that he's closer to her in personality. And as you say, he can see what his father's infidelities are doing to Rose. And I think it's, I think it's, it's hard for him to sort out what that all means. No question.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Let's take a break.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Hi, everyone. It's Katty Kay here from The Rest is Politics US. The midterms are almost here. It's the biggest political moment of the year. And Anthony Scaramucci and I'll be right there with you, making sense of every twist and turn as the results come in.

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. We're going to be live on YouTube, covering the midterms as we get the results. Will Donald Trump be a lame duck for the next two years or walk away with a mandate to do whatever he wants? We're about to find out.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  So join us from midnight to 3 a.m. Eastern time on November the 4th. We'll be live reacting to all of the results as they come in. That's 5 a.m. to 8 a.m. if you're listening in the UK.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  So make sure you're subscribed to The Rest is Politics US on YouTube and turn on notifications, please. You won't want to miss this.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  When you shop Kroger delivery, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. From delicious produce to everyday essentials, enjoy the convenience of delivery and the trusted selection you've come to know from Kroger. Because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. Right now, enjoy free delivery on orders of $50 or more with your digital coupon. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger, fresh for everyone.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Welcome back, back to the world of politics now. So he's met the girl Frederick, but now he needs position two. And as we sort of mentioned, you know, going against Cabot Lodge, there is a family score to settle. I mean, tell me how that plays out.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Well, I just loved writing this part of the story, you know, all authors have certain chapters that they found more fun to do than others. This was one of the ones that I really liked to write about, this Senate campaign in 1952, because he's going up against a giant in Henry Cabot, the Cabot Lodge Jr. He really had no business taking on a kind of institution in Massachusetts politics. And yet he does. And partly, I think there is that history that you alluded to, and a desire on Jack's part to take on this luminary in the in the GOP and see if he can win. And Lodge underestimates his

• 26:22Speaker 03

  foe. Classic political story that he thinks, you know what, I am Henry Cabot Lodge. I don't really need to begin the campaign as early as somebody else might.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  For this pipsqueak, what's he gonna do?

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Pipsqueak for this person who's, who's, who's, you know, okay, he's got a certain charm. I can see what he's been able to do in winning congressional races. But he's not going to be a problem for me.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  But I'm a Cabot Lodge. You know, you mentioned the Brahmins, the Cabot Lodges were, you know, some of the biggest Brahmins on the block, were they not?

• 26:54Speaker 03

  Huge, absolutely.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Actually, he was huge, wasn't he? Henry Cabot Lodge himself was like six foot three or something. I mean, he was a gigantic man.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  He's straight from central casting in terms of what a distinguished politician should look like. A long generation of, of, you know, Harvard graduates. And as you say, this is old money. This is public service. This is somebody who then interrupted his Senate service to serve in World War II. I mean, the the story is just an extraordinary story. Jack Kennedy should have no business taking on, much less beating, Henry Cabot Lodge in a Republican year, by the way.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because, I mean, again, he's done it again. He did it before, didn't he? I mean, he, he took his Senate seat at a time when the Republicans were just being destroyed everywhere else in the country. Eisenhower carries the whole of Massachusetts, but Kennedy takes. Takes the Senate.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  It's it's close, but he he does it. And one thing we should underscore here, I think, is that the strategy he adopts in Massachusetts in that Senate campaign is one that he will utilize again, shall we say. Namely, every chance he gets, he comes back from Washington, takes the train off and then takes the overnight train back to Washington, but he spends weekend after weekend after weekend in small towns around Massachusetts, meeting with voters, sometimes ten voters, sometimes twelve, sometimes a hundred, but he does this diligently, weekend after weekend. And it's about FaceTime with voters.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  It's about reaching all parts of the state, something that, you know, most politicians haven't done. You start earlier than the competition and you work harder than the competition. This is what Jack Kennedy is willing to do, and he does.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  I mean, he wins, and therefore, the wedding, a few weeks later in September nineteen fifty three, really turns into a coronation rather than just the wedding. But it but it's worth actually saying that, you know, he he wasn't in good nick at this time, because there were people, friends and family around him, who were worried that he would not be able to kneel at the altar or get up because his back was bad by then, wasn't it? All this glad-handing and and traveling around and campaigning had taken its toll on his body.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  It had. I still think that sometimes we exaggerate, you know, the the extent of those ailments. I think shortly before the the wedding, he played touch football with his family, which was, as you know, a tradition in the Kennedys to to be out there. And so that tells you that, you know, if he even if he's the quarterback, meaning he just has to throw the ball rather than be in the midst of the action, he's he's still able to do this. But yeah, there were legitimate concerns that kneeling at the altar for for Senator Kennedy was going to be too much, and there were some contingency thinking, is there a way to do this without him doing that? And that's the that's the situation.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so Pulitzer Prize-winning author, what was the wedding like? What do people wear? I mean, come on, spill the tea. We want to know what it was like.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  It was a high-society wedding, and Jackie had real reservations about this. She wanted a classy wedding, but she was going to be seeing literally hundreds of people that she had never met before and probably we probably wouldn't meet again. Huge number of photographers. One of the things we should note here, an interesting subtext, is that already now magazine editors and newspaper editors are saying, this is the couple in Washington. Young, glamorous Jack Kennedy and his beautiful new bride, or bride-to-be, I guess is when they're thinking about this, Jackie Bouvier.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  And so hordes of photographers, journalists, and then a massive wedding, because Joe Kennedy has insisted, he says, I'm going to pay for this. But in exchange for paying for this extravaganza, we're gonna we're gonna build this up to the to the nth degree. And it's a beautiful day. Jackie, I think, is nervous throughout because of all that's involved. She's she's so she's so young, it comes off. It's it's it's given front-page coverage really all over the country, and it serves at least Joe Kennedy's purposes in the in that regard beautifully.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  So one of the details that I love from this wedding, I mean, I love all of it, but one of the details I particularly love is that Jackie wore an ivory silk gown designed by an African-American couturier called Anne Lowe. Now, that that in itself was, or am I sort of projecting, feels to me like a big deal for for a wedding like that to have a, you know, an African-American designer.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  I think it was a big deal. And she deserves credit for that. Now, there have been suggestions that, for all I know, may be true. I wasn't able to really get to the bottom of this, that Jackie was not as charitable, shall we say, in acknowledging or in in publicizing this fact that an African-American woman had designed this. And so so let's just leave it there, because I don't know what to make of this suggestion, actually.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Although that doesn't speak well of her at all. That's not good.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  No, and again, I don't know whether it's true.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  And, you know, as as maybe this is a good moment to say that the archival and other evidence that I have for this biography of John F. Kennedy is absolutely enormous. There are there are so many materials in so many repositories. But even so, there are certain moments, I guess it's true with any biography, any political life, where you're left without the supporting material that you would like, and this is one of those instances.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  It looks as though it might be a short marriage, because it's only a year later that he almost dies again. This this man, it's constantly lurching from near-death experience to near-death experience, because there's an operation that takes place a year after the wedding, which which which is a serious one, which almost kills him. Tell us a little bit about what happens in nineteen fifty-four.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he's been but he's been bothered by a bad back, really, since since returning from the service and to some extent even before. It turns out that one half of his body is a little shorter than the other half, and you can see this in some photographs. So it causes this kind of wrenching motion, if you will. But he's in acute pain. He's told of a procedure, and medical opinion is divided. Some doctors say, don't do this, Senator. Others say, no, you should do this. I really think we can make this better. His father says, don't do it, this might kill you. I've I've I've looked into this. Jack says, I'm going for it. You know, he allegedly says, I'd rather die than than continue with the kind of pain that I have.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  And actually, you know, his father is quite right to be worried about this, because this operation puts Jack Kennedy into a coma, and it's so serious that he gets given his last rites.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  He gets given his last rites. Jackie is beside herself with concern. She's chain-smoking, chain-smoking, as she tended to do anyway, but, you know, she may have two cigarettes going, for all I know, but is beside herself with worry, so is so are the parents. And yet, here he is, as he's done before, miraculously. I'm picturing Jack Kennedy opening his eyes and saying, you know, what's going on? Because he does, he does come back from this, this very close call, and little by little, it takes months, gets a sort of get-well card from Richard Nixon and a bouquet of

• 34:55Speaker 03

  flowers from Nixon, from his his colleague, but he comes back from this.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, he doesn't just come back. I mean, this is, he's he's actually quite a strange, strange man, because, again, you know, you've just you've just stared death in the face again, and he does decide he's going to write another book while he's recovering again. And this book is about political courage. Why do you think that's subject at that moment?

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Well, I think I've I've thought a lot about this, and I speculate about this in the book, more than speculate, I think I have supporting evidence. The fact that he had not taken a strong stand against Joe McCarthy. So we should note here that in nineteen fifty-three and fifty-four, there's building pressure against Joe McCarthy. And a a move by his Senate colleagues to to attack Joe McCarthy and ultimately to censure him. Jack, partly for family reasons, partly because of the heavy Catholic vote in Massachusetts, McCarthy has huge numbers of supporters in Massachusetts. So Kennedy says, I don't know if I want to alienate Massachusetts Catholics, but he doesn't take, I think it's fair to say, a strong stand against McCarthy.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Does he does he say nothing, or does he just sort of tacitly approve of what McCarthy? And just to, we should remind people what McCarthy did. McCarthy basically destroyed people's lives. He tried to out anybody who had any leaning towards communism. Communists were the enemy of the people, particularly, I mean, we can sort of, if you want to see really good adaptations of what this did to some people working, you know, writers, thinkers, teachers, anybody, you know, there's a brilliant film called Trumbo, I don't know if you've seen it, about Dalton Trumbo, who was a a screenwriter for for Hollywood, I mean, extraordinary screenwriter. I think he did, I think even while he was excommunicated and exiled because of McCarthyism,

• 36:48Speaker 02

  he wrote Roman Holiday under a different name, and Spartacus and Exodus. So that this guy was blacklisted, but people blacklisted by McCarthy or thrown in prison by McCarthy because they were suspected of being communists, and they had to, you know, like those Stalin trials, had to denounce friends. So so did he? Did he just sort of go along with it and say nothing? Or did he just say, oh, well, whatever will be, will be? What did he do?

• 37:14Speaker 03

  It's a very good summary, by the way, Anita, of of McCarthy and McCarthyism. I mean, the only thing worth noting there is that Joe McCarthy really didn't care about communism. He wanted an issue. Somebody said he couldn't tell the difference between Karl Marx and and the Marx Brothers. In other words, he didn't have a, it wasn't an ideological opposition to this. He saw something he could exploit for personal purposes, that he could demagogue, and he was a very skilled demagogue. Kennedy opposed, to go to your question, Kennedy opposed McCarthy on various

• 37:50Speaker 03

  Issues, including people that McCarthy went after and Senator Kennedy defended. So it's not as though he was completely silent on him. And by the way, most of his Senate colleagues were really no better. They too were unwilling to really push hard against the McCarthy phenomenon. We should note that. But it's also fair to say that that Jack played it carefully. He used his illness and the fact that he was hospitalized to avoid really a public commentary on McCarthy. And I think one reason for the book, in addition to a really lifelong interest in democracy and the challenges of democracy, one reason for writing Profiles in Courage was because

• 38:35Speaker 03

  of this lingering worry he had that he had not been strong enough on on McCarthy. I should also note Profiles was a collaborative effort. We have not yet mentioned the name of Ted Sorensen, a hugely important figure in the story of Kennedy's political rise. Ted Sorensen is a progressive from Nebraska, young, you know, still shy of age 30, becomes really the lead assistant, if you will, aide in Senator Kennedy's office and quickly makes himself indispensable to Jack Kennedy. I find this such an interesting relationship.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  Maybe the most important political relationship between politician and assistant, or as important as any we've had in American history, certainly in the 20th century. That's how important this collaborative relationship is. Sorensen, you know, ultimately can finish Kennedy's sentences. He knows what he thinks. He knows how he would write. And they joined forces, if you will, on this book in which Senator Kennedy lays out the themes, but Sorensen drafts much of the interior of this book.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  So I should say that this book, maybe not surprisingly, goes on to be a bestseller because anything that, you know, that JFK touches turns to gold at this point in his life. But also, Frederick, he wins a Pulitzer, like you. He gets the Pulitzer Prize for biography. Now, is the Pulitzer Prize, it's just for him, isn't it? I mean, Sorensen, does he get a mention? Pulitzer Prize for?

• 40:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  No, it's just for John F. Kennedy.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  He gets a nice mention in the acknowledgements.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's nice.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  You know, but it's not John F. Kennedy with Theodore Sorensen or Kennedy and Sorensen. It's just Jack Kennedy, which, by the way, was standard in that age. You know, I mean, even Winston Churchill, we know, had a team of researchers who often drafted chapters of his books that he would then, you know, polish and so on. So it wasn't unusual for politicians to have, in effect, ghostwriters. But Sorensen did not get the recognition, and this became controversial, something I deal with in the second volume.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  This erupts really as a controversy. Who actually wrote the book? I think it's also worth saying quickly two other things. I don't think the book deserved the Pulitzer. There were worthier choices that the jury put forth.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  And the jury was then overruled by the Pulitzer Board, which it has a right to do. The board went its own way and awarded the biography prize to Kennedy. But the other thing that's worth saying, I think, Anita, is that this question of political courage was just so resonant, and it is resonant. I think the book bears rereading. I have assigned portions of it to my students because I think it has a kind of timeless importance. What do you do as a politician if what your constituents want doesn't square with what you think is in the national interest?

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Oh, buddy, we've got to go, we've got to go to the pub and have a, that is a chat that's, that needs alcohol and time. I have thoughts. I have many, many thoughts about that. Many, many thoughts. But let's, you know.

• 41:58Speaker 03

  Let's hit the pub together.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Let's just do it. But at this time, I mean, this enormous popularity, the Pulitzer Prize, you know, bestselling author, I mean, he's back again, JFK, and the timing is everything because 1956 is going to give him an in where there was never one before. So, so if I can set the scene, so it's 1956. Adlai Stevenson is, is, is the man who would be president. And before, before running, he opens the vice presidential seat. Instead of just choosing it, he says, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to do something. I'm not choosing. I'm going to let you choose who you want to be my, my vice president.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Now, who do you think immediately comes to mind when there is a popularity, basically a beauty pageant? Everybody's just saying Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, right?

• 42:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this decision by Stevenson to, as you say, throw the decision basically to the delegates at the National Convention in Chicago is incredible because it brings drama to what otherwise would be a pretty desultory conclusion to the convention. So you can kind of see why he did it. Because for a few hours, the whole nation is fixated on who's going to be the vice presidential nominee. And Kennedy decides, I'm going to make a run for this. And his brother Bobby, we haven't really talked about him yet. He and Bobby, over a period of a few hours, try to drum us up as much support as they can before the vote takes place. And

• 43:39Speaker 02

  And this is a lot of chutzpah because they really are pipsqueaks. I mean, there are, there are people with bigger CVs than them.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  And let's note

• 43:47Speaker 02

  This role.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  And let's note he's a Catholic, which is going to be an issue going forward. But they make a run for it. And for a long time in this vote, it looks like Kennedy's going to win. He's, he's, he's getting hot. Each, with each ballot, each round of the balloting, his numbers go up. And he is just short of winning this election when the tide turns. And some party leaders, important players, governors, senators, others decide, we can't have Jack Kennedy. He's too young. He's too green. He's too Catholic. And at the, at the last moment, Estes Kiefever from Tennessee gains and ultimately gets the nomination and becomes Stevenson's running mate.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  But from Kennedy's perspective, this is perfect because he's become a young national figure where he wasn't before this happened. This is his coming out moment. And yet he's not saddled with blame for the defeat that everybody expects is coming in November and which does come in November.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Well, they're crushed, aren't they? And who remembers Kiefever's name? Kiefever is not easy to say, and it's impossible to remember. No one knows about Kiefever or indeed Adlai Stevenson.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Presumably his grandchildren know about him.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, not too many others.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. So he dodges a bullet really by not being on that losing ballot. He, doesn't he also give a really very lovely, uh, telegenic concession? Oh, yes, look, okay.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  The concession speech.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Tell me about the concession speech.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  It's 152 words.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Everybody should run right now to YouTube and find this speech because it's right there, lasts only a couple of minutes. It's extemporaneous. He's got a little sheet of paper, but he doesn't really refer to it. And it's gracious. It's classy. It's elegant. And what he does is he, he concedes and basically says, you know, let's all rally behind this ticket. And I think it's a very important speech. Actually, I suggest it's one of the most important speeches he would ever give as a politician.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Oh, really? Well, I'm going, I'm going to immediately suggest everybody looks this up as soon as this podcast is ended. Would you say this is actually the start of his presidential run, weirdly then? Because if you've got the nation looking at you, this is such an upheaval story. And, you know, for a while it looks like I am Spartacus, I am Spartacus. No, you're not Spartacus. Right at the end, you know, there's such drama and momentum in this story and he gets so many column inches. And then that speech, that this is actually the beginning for him.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  I think it's, I think you could certainly make that argument. And I hinted along those lines. Just to give you a sense of this, after the convention, Stevenson himself writes to Jack and says, in effect, huge thanks for all you're doing. And I'm paraphrasing, but you're coming out of this as a star in our party. And that's from Stevenson himself, the nominee. And then he campaigns for Stevenson. He's a hit when he's doing so. He gets bigger crowds than anybody but the two, the two running mates. They get, you know, obviously big crowds. But in terms of anybody else that fall on the Democratic side, nobody gets bigger crowds than Jack Kennedy.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  And then the big moment, Thanksgiving, Hyannis Port, 1956. He and the old man repair after dinner to have a discussion about his political future. And I end the book, volume one, with the decision.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Don't throw it away. Actually read what you wrote.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  The sun fell quiet, then looked up and smiled. Well, Dad, I guess there's only one question left. When do we start?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Very powerful indeed. And that is what we are going to be talking about in our next episode. We're going to take you to 1960, the closest presidential election of the century, a televised debate that changes politics, I would suggest, forever and for all of us. And that old name that you recognize from 19, class of 1946, I'm talking about Richard Nixon, lots of sweat and some very bright lights. So do join us for that. Frederick Lobe, once again, thank you very, very much for being with us and thank you for joining us for the next episode as well. Really grateful to you.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm so pleased to be with you and I look forward to, to, to next time.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Brilliant. Until the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.