407. JFK: The Kennedy Curse Begins (Part 1)

John F. Kennedy, the youngest president of the United States, a man who charmed a nation. His tragic death in Dallas continues to inspire infinite conspiracy theories, but what made the man? Anita Anand is joined by historian Frederik Logevall to discuss JFK’s tumultuous early life, from the influence of his Irish Catholic grandfather in Boston; to surviving the sinking of his ship in shark-infested waters during the Second World War; to the loss of his idolised older brother. Join the Empire Club: Unlock the full Empire experience – with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to miniseries and live show tickets, exclusive book discounts, a members-only newsletter, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at empirepoduk.com. Email: [email protected] Instagram: @empirepoduk Blue Sky: @empirepoduk X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Imogen Marriott Editor: Gabriela Gibbs Social Producer: Charlie Johnson Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and Cs apply.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10" once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at carvana.com.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 2:06Speaker 04

  Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arndt. And no, it's not a long pause. He's not here today, but I have the very great pleasure in covering a man that you have all heard of, John F. Kennedy, JFK in short. JFK is one of the most famous names in history, who met one of the most notorious ends. Now, the youngest ever president of the United States led his nation through momentous geopolitical events at the height of the Cold War. But what exactly made him who he was? From the influence of his Irish Catholic grandfather in Boston, to surviving the sinking of his ship in shark-infested waters during the Second World War, to those last moments

• 2:46Speaker 04

  sitting in that convertible before three gunshots sounded across Dealey Plaza in 1963. Today, I am speaking to the preeminent historian of all things JFK, the Lawrence Belfer Professor of History and International Affairs at Harvard. He is also the winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Embers of War, a man who's been advising the new hit Netflix series Kennedy. Of course, I'm talking about Frederick Logovar. So the last time I met Frederick, he was fresh off a Netflix set where you'd been sort of hanging about with people like Michael Fassbender. Now, right, okay, spill the tea. This is for an adaptation, screen adaptation of your work.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, it's a very exciting thing. It'll air next spring. And as you point out, I had the privilege of being on the set. And before that, let me just say that the whole team, the writers, led by Sam Shaw, the showrunner, Netflix and their involvement, the crew in England, and of course, the cast, including Michael Fassbender, who's got the lead role, which is Joseph Kennedy, the father of JFK. Just a privilege for me to interact with all of them and to have a chance to chat, you know, Formula One with Michael, since we're both fans of that. But more importantly, to see them all doing their thing as they can do it.

• 4:07Speaker 05

  And I think it's a terrific adaptation. And it'll air, as I say, I think it's going to be screened or dropped, whatever the phrase is, in April. That's the plan.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  Dropped is fine. You sound very Gen Alpha. Well done. You did that very well. You know, if this were a pub, I would be pumping you for information about stars for the next 45 minutes, but we're a serious podcast. So suffice to say, let's leave the Netflix adaptation. Just, I think people would really like to know who's playing JFK, who's playing Jackie? I mean, can you reveal?

• 4:38Speaker 05

  I can reveal the former, the young Jack. The young JFK is being played by Josh Melnick, who is relatively new, but I think is marvelous. I predict great things in store for young Josh. And Jackie does not enter the story until season two, if there is a season two.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  Oh, there will be.

• 4:57Speaker 05

  So she has not been cast. So that we don't know yet who will be Jackie.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  Okay, well, that's a game for our listeners to play. If you want to recommend somebody, because Frederick has some pull on this project, you know, just send it in, empirepoduk.com. So I want to start with the book, because your book does something really unexpected. I mean, you started with this colossal figure of Joe Kennedy, and we are going to get to him, because he's just immense and in some respect, quite monstrous. But can we start with where you start, which is a man I think very few people would have heard of, Honey Fitz, the Boston Irish ward boss. Now, how does he fit into the JFK story?

• 5:33Speaker 05

  He's a very interesting figure, as you say, and the name sort of gives that away a little bit, but he's the maternal grandfather of John F. Kennedy. So Jack's mother is Rose Kennedy. Her father is the legendary Honey Fitz, a giant on the Boston political scene, in the mayor's office, in various important positions, and also in Congress. But he's really, he's really key as an Irish Catholic politician, political chieftain, if you will, in Boston, and I think has a very important influence on his grandson, which is something I develop both in the first volume, but I also refer to in the second volume, which is now in production.

• 6:17Speaker 05

  The degree to which he really takes after his grandfather in many ways, even though they're very different kinds of politicians. Honey Fitz is the sort of traditional backslapping, you know, kissing babies kind of politician. Jack Kennedy, of course, is not. He's much more restrained and doesn't do that kind of thing. But in terms of an interest in politics, a commitment to public service, that comes at least in part from his grandfather, no question.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, you say of Honey Fitz in your book, that he was an expert practitioner of the Irish switch. And for those people who don't know what that is, I mean, it's just your basic social rudeness, isn't it? It's sort of shaking hands. If I were shaking hands with you, Frederick, I'd be looking over your shoulder at somebody else and smiling at a third person all simultaneously.

• 7:08Speaker 05

  You've just defined the Irish, you know, switch perfectly. That's exactly what it was. And he was indeed an expert practitioner of this and could speak at a massive clip and would attend dinners, parties, seemingly several of them per night. And even if this is slightly exaggerated, would get around town on a nightly basis like maybe nobody else. A totally fascinating figure.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, so again, a person that doesn't come up in the mythology very often, for those of us who look at JFK on a very superficial level, but this was a man who very much like his grandson could party. I mean, you have this wonderful detail in the book, that he has all these different collars in his back pocket. So when he's sort of, you know, out and about, he just flips off a collar and puts on a fresh one, just so he doesn't look sweaty and dirty.

• 8:05Speaker 05

  Here too, maybe Jack gets something from his grandfather, because Jack Kennedy was famous for wanting to change shirts frequently. And so he would sometimes have three or four shirts on in a given day. Didn't have to do collars like they did in Honey Fitz's day, but maybe there's a certain connection there as well.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, because the connection that the Kennedys talked about a lot was Ireland. You know, they were very, very proud of their Irish roots and they have a claim to it. I mean, Patrick Kennedy, who's the patriarchal grandfather, is a Wexford boy. I mean, tell us about his story and how that feeds into the mythology.

• 8:45Speaker 05

  Well, it's, of course, closely connected to the potato famine, middle of the 19th century, that caused, as you know, a massive number of deaths in Ireland and just difficulties for family after family. And many young people in particular took the opportunity to head to America, not knowing what they would find, in many cases, not having any real connections with anybody in the United States. I think that's Patrick Kennedy. He was also not the oldest son, so therefore he couldn't expect, even if he stayed in Ireland, to inherit, you know, the land.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  The prospects looked better for him, and so he took a chance and headed to the States, as it was often called, made his way there in Boston, arrived in Boston. And the Kennedy story, I guess you could say, began with Patrick arriving. And I try to picture the scene, but what was it like to arrive on one of these coffin ships, as they were called, because a lot of people died en route? What was it like to arrive in Boston? This strange new land, not know anybody, have to find a place to live, have to then find a place to work? Maybe meet somebody and start a family. What an extraordinary moment that must have been for Patrick.

• 10:10Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, sort of, you know, they were made of different stuff, weren't they, those early immigrants? And anyone who's seen The Godfather will know, you know, that De Niro scene of a little boy washing up on a foreign shore. I mean, that is the Patrick Kennedy story, which is, which is a strange thing, because it feels like it's a story that Joe Kennedy sort of co-opted for himself. Now, now, where people may not have heard of Honey Fitz, everybody's heard of Joe Kennedy, and they remember him often not very kindly. So do us a thumbnail sketch of who the real Joe Kennedy was.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Well, it's, as you say, I think he co-ops. I think you put it very well. In a sense, he co-ops that origin story in some ways for himself. He liked to tell the story of how he pulled himself up from really nothing, which is actually not true. He grew up pretty comfortable in Boston, did Joe Kennedy. And he felt, he was admitted into Harvard, and he had a very driven mother who encouraged him. He was not a particularly good student, but it was easier to get into Harvard in those days than it would be later. He got in and did okay, but felt snubbed by the upper-class Brahmins, as they were known,

• 11:23Speaker 05

  the Boston Brahmins, always felt snubbed by his peers at Harvard. And he vowed, Anita, he vowed that he would do better than them. He would show them what he could do. He would make more money than they would. He would acquire more power than they would. And I think by and large, we have to say that he succeeded. And so it's really in part a story of Joe Kennedy making this determined effort to really show his peers what he could do and to show his professors what he could do, the people he had interacted with, with a mother who was encouraging him, encouraging him, I think it's fair to say, every step of the way.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  So the Brahmins, if we, if we just talk about that for a moment, because I'm fascinated. These are the kind of people who were old money, were they? I mean, sort of, you know, the ones who washed up, first of all, the pilgrim fathers, if you like, and, you know, Martha's Vineyard and all of that kind of stuff. But they were snobs, weren't they? And the Kennedys didn't fit. And, and that was kind of a thing that you will see again with, with JFK, with, with Jack, is that you pride yourself on not fitting in, that you're the special one.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. And what's funny about it, and I don't, I don't think the Kennedys are unique in this regard, but they wanted to fit in. I don't think they would quite admit that. But I think it was a real struggle for Joe in particular, that he wasn't fully accepted. Because as you say, we're talking about old money aristocrats who had gone to all the right prep schools, whose father had all the right occupations. And I think Joe Kennedy desperately wanted to be part of that crowd. He tried to get into a final club, which is at Harvard, a kind of elite, a group of elite societies that still exist. And he failed in that effort. And by the way, to jump ahead, Jack was able to, to

• 13:18Speaker 05

  get into a final club. So we can come back to that. But it, it shows, I think, the degree to which he both wanted to be separate from the Brahmins, and yet some part of him was desperate for, for their acceptance.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Now, I really, really am obsessed with John F. Kennedy's mother, Rose. I mean, you, you mentioned her and you mentioned the marriage. But as a mother, I mean, to me, she seems quite a cold and remote figure. Tell us about Rose Kennedy.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  I think it's fair to say that she was. To put it, I guess, most kindly, she was emotionally reserved. And in a way, who can blame her? Because one of the things we haven't discussed, but is worth stressing, is that Joe cheated on her continually.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Oh, voraciously.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  Voraciously is a good word. And so that must have had an effect on her. But I, I do think it's probably also part of her personality. And then you've got to add in nine children. I speculate that, you know, she wanted to go to, to, to college. She had ambitions of her own. But Honey Fitz basically quashed those, those kind of intellectual and maybe career ambitions that she had. So it's difficult for her. I also believe, as I suggest, that she is hugely important in Jack's development. He's actually closer to his mother in personality than he is to his father. She has a love of history that I think she passes on to Jack. She has a love of reading that she passes on to him.

• 14:59Speaker 05

  She believes strongly in the notion of giving back, that is to say, public service. That I think he inherits from both parents, but maybe a little bit more from her. So I want to give her credit that she often doesn't get in the books, because Joe is such a colorful, dominant figure, that we sometimes forget about Rose. But she is the mother of nine, including the future president of the United States.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  You use the word colorful, but I would say Joe is just downright slutty. Well, just heartbreaking. I mean, he must have been an absolute nightmare to be married to. He, he gets involved after being terribly successful in banking. And what, what comes across from your, your first volume is that this is a man who's less interested in money and more interested in power. And he realizes where the power lies. But then he gets involved in Hollywood. So he's surrounded by glamour. He sees, you know, the 1920s, when it's still silent movies, that this is where, you know, the, the world is going to, look, it's going to be a center of a universe. And he gets involved with the most beautiful woman of the day. I mean, everybody, not a secret. This is a real Marilyn Monroe kind of echo,

• 16:12Speaker 04

  but it's Gloria Swanson for JFK's father, isn't it?

• 16:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is. And I think you're absolutely right. I wanted to say, a nightmare to be married to in many ways, as you say. He could show affection for Rose on a pretty regular basis. There was another side to him. Didn't appear very often. He was actually also a very devoted father, which is something we can come back to.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 16:36Speaker 05

  But there is that dimension of him. But the Hollywood chapter is fascinating. And there have been books written about Joe Kennedy in Hollywood, because he really does become in a short period of time, a kind of mogul. He's good at this. And it comes, by the way, it causes him to understand the importance of image, public relations. He comes to see that this is intimately connected with the future of politics. And so when Jack becomes a congressional candidate, I think his father's Hollywood years are key in getting young Jack Kennedy to understand the importance of looking good on the camera, speaking to the camera. Television, I think they understand from an early point, certainly by the early

• 17:18Speaker 05

  1950s. It's going to be huge. But the affair with Swanson, which, which features in the Netflix series, I guess I can disclose, for obvious reasons, is amazing, because here you have, as you put it, this is the biggest star in Hollywood, and she becomes the not-so-secret mistress, we could note, of one Joseph Kennedy.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  The reasons people may be shouting, oh, get, get to JFK, but you need to understand the ingredients. It will all make sense, because, you know, all of this is going to feel like deja vu all over again when we get to JFK. So just understand. And maybe, if I can ask you to explain, how Joe Kennedy, like JFK, a devout Catholic, can resolve adultery, which is a sin, you know, which is something he would have had to go to the confessional to discuss all the time.

• 18:09Speaker 05

  Well, maybe you put your finger on it right there. He says, and he's probably not the only Catholic to say this, I'll go to confession. I mean, he understands, in other words, that this is a sin. He's, he's, he's breaking God's word. He's breaking what the Bible says is, is, is appropriate behavior. But it's like he can't help himself. It's about, it seems to me for him, and maybe for his son, it's about the conquest. It's about showing that nothing can, can, can, can stop him.

• 18:47Speaker 05

  And it begins, as we noted earlier, it begins at a very early point. It begins before, long before he goes to Hollywood, years before he goes to Hollywood. So this is not, I don't think, closely connected with, with his mogul years, if I can put it that way. But it begins early and it continues. And of course, he models this behavior for his sons, both Joe Junior, who we haven't mentioned, the golden child in the, in the firmament, and then the second son, which is Jack.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  I promise you, we're going to get to the children, but I just, just in the first half of this, and after the break, we will dwell on these nine children and the two boys in particular. But just before we go to the break, I, I want to use Joe as the portal to politics, because without Joe Kennedy and his interest in politics and power, there would have been no JFK. There just wouldn't have been. And so in 1934, he starts sort of to, to start treading the ground or preparing the ground to become a political figure. And at some point, Frederick, he's, he's rising and he's taken sort of fairly seriously because he's got money and power. But at one point, then he says, oh, look, I think there's an ambassadorship going in London. And this is in the 1930s. And he goes to

• 20:01Speaker 04

  FDR, I'd like that job. And apparently, according to your book, when Roosevelt first hears this, he falls off his, falls out of his wheelchair laughing because this is the most undiplomatic man who exists in the firmament.

• 20:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's absolutely the case. You know, there's an important point here that we should underscore, Anita, which is, I think he comes to understand that if the twenties were about making money, and that that's what many Americans, including in elite positions, deemed to be the most important thing. I think Joe Kennedy understood that the thirties were about politics. We have a depression. We have a growing importance of, of, of decisions made in Washington. And so he shifts. And again, it's, it's about seeking power for him. And he wants, as you, as you rightly point out, a position of consequence in politics.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 20:58Speaker 05

  And through a process of, of, of elimination, he really wanted to be Secretary of the Treasury, but Roosevelt was not going to appoint him to that position.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  Because why? Because he was widely regarded as, you know, I don't know, as sort of a poacher. So to put him in a gamekeeper's role, that would have been a disaster.

• 21:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think part of it is that Roosevelt had other people in mind, people he preferred over Joe Kennedy. He also didn't fully trust Joe Kennedy, which is an interesting point. And in fact, one of the reasons he got to the London ambassadorship was because he would take him out of the United States. It would move him away. FDR and his aides saw Joe Kennedy as a threat, somebody with his own presidential ambitions. Here's a way to get him off the stage, if you will. But we should also note, and this is, this is no longer the case, but in that era, the ambassadorship in London was one of the great appointments in American government. Many, many former

• 21:58Speaker 05

  ambassadors in to the, to the Court of St. James's went on to become president and vice president. And so you could see why Joe, being ambitious for, at this point, he's ambitious for himself. He wants to be president. You could see why he would say, ah, yes, I'll go to London. I'll do well there. And it'll give, it'll be the platform from which I can then run for president.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I just want you all, as we go into this break, to remember the timing of that position, because it is the 1930s. He will be in the heart of Europe, where Europe is having to pick sides with the rise of Adolf Hitler. And well, let's just say, he may not pick the wisest side. Join us after the break.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 23:18Speaker 06

  You're listening to a quick ad. You know what else is quick? Selling your car on Carvana. Just put in your vehicle information and we'll give you an offer. Done. No hassle, no negotiation, no guy from an online listing lowballing you. Which means, by the time I'm done explaining this, you could have basically done it. Still haven't started? Hey, better late than ever. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision.

• 23:50Speaker 07

  I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

• 24:00Speaker 07

  That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest.

• 24:11Speaker 07

  Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Now streaming, only on Disney+.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Welcome back. So Frederick, you, you sort of teased us with nine children. Poor Rose. I mean, actually, I feel so sorry for Rose. And I wonder, she was cold and stern. She knackered. Nine children. And Jack is the second son. So he's not the heir. Joe Junior is, as you say, the golden child, the man, you know, with the sort of backlit entry into the world. Tell us about the relationship between the siblings. Because it, it was crunchy, wasn't it? It was deeply competitive.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Jack drew some comfort from the fact that he could operate a little bit in the shadow of his older brother. His older brother, we should note, Hollywood star handsome. He excelled at every level of education. Had to work harder than Jack. Jack was a kind of a slacker, as we say these days, and was able to get solid grades without putting really any effort into it. Joe had to work much harder. But it's a strong sibling rivalry. Joe can beat up Jack anytime he wants. He's physically stronger. He's bigger. Jack, as we haven't discussed yet, but had lots of health issues.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  Let's talk about it, because it's more than quarterback versus geek. I mean, you know, Jack Kennedy was a sick little boy, wasn't he, really?

• 25:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, he really was from, from a very early point. Almost died from scarlet fever when he was just beyond toddlerhood, if we can say that. But then had ailments throughout. It was difficult for him. It was fairly common in those days when you were at a private school for your parents not to visit. So we shouldn't make too much of this. But Rose Kennedy really never visited Jack when he was laid up in the infirmary, which to modern day parents, we think this is just crazy. And even at the time, there were parents, of course, who would visit a sick child in the infirmary, but he did not get visits from his mother. Joe, in some ways, the more devoted parent, would visit his son in some

• 26:13Speaker 05

  of these instances. But you're quite right. This is, this is young Jack. He's athletic in his own way. He's got good hand-eye coordination. And he grows to be a tall, he grows to be about six, six feet tall. So it's not as though he's a little runt or anything like this. And next to his brother, who is, who is never, I don't know that Joe Kennedy Junior is, is sick a day in his life.

• 26:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 05

  And is so robust, so driven, knows he's the golden child, desperate to impress his parents and especially his father. That's Joe Junior in a, in a nutshell.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  But I think both of these boys are driven by the, this desire to show daddy that they're the best.

• 26:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  And, you know, when, when, I certainly, I get that impression from reading your work, that when Jack Junior is sick in bed, he still can't be doing nothing. So what he does is he reads. And he is a voracious reader at a young age, because he spends such a, you know, a huge amount of time on his back in bed.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  On his, on his back. And of course, in those days, you didn't have other distractions, you know? It was, it was reading really or nothing. And he does become, as you say, a voracious reader. By the way, something that really continues through his life, I think it's, it's a key to understanding who he is, develops a particular interest in diplomatic history and in biographies of statesmen. And becomes certainly the most bookish member of the family, both the parents and his siblings. And, you know, in the, in the long run, obviously he's going to pay off for him. And he, this, this, this dimension of him, this interest

• 27:58Speaker 05

  in history, which as I said earlier, he gets really from Rose. Maybe it's because I'm a historian, but I have a soft, I have a soft spot for that part of Jack Kennedy's personality.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  And he sort of, you know, once he gets over his, his childhood sicknesses, he gets a little more robust and he goes to this exclusive school called Choate School in Connecticut. To those listening in England, it's basically your Eton stroke Harrow, isn't it?

• 28:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe a slight notch below. So I don't know, you would know the English sort of pecking order more than I would. But it would, it would be in the kind of second tier, if you will, in terms of reputations of these prep schools.

• 28:39Speaker 04

  I mean, they're certainly modeled on the English public school, even if it's second tier, because, you know, we have the Bullingdon Club here in this country, but you had the Muckers Club there in America. And what was a mucker? And how was, you know, Jack Kennedy a mucker?

• 28:53Speaker 05

  Well, it's a group that he really was responsible for really bringing to, to life. It was a group of maybe a dozen boys at Choate, who were up to mischief. And he was really the de facto leader. You see here a future, you know, a future political leader in a sense. And they would get into trouble. And the headmaster would bring them into the office. And ultimately, they were even expelled. And then Joe Kennedy had to come into the, into the picture and convince the headmaster that they should be, you know, allowed to continue with their studies. But it was a group that, it was pretty good

• 29:36Speaker 05

  natured. It wasn't anything too dramatic, but caused, at least as far as he was concerned, the headmaster.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  Unnecessary trouble, shall we say.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, he accused them of sort of, you know, being mired in muck with their behaviour. So they bought themselves a lovely monogram shovel. You know, that's that kind of sort of privilege and cheek that go hand in hand, right?

• 29:59Speaker 05

  And let me just make a nice little anecdote because this says something about the Netflix production. So I was on the set at Shepperton Studios,

• 30:09Speaker 05

  just outside London, as you know, and I got to talking with the person who was really responsible for the sets and for everything involved with making the production look real. And he presented me with a tiny little shovel in gold. And he said, we wanted you to have this, Frederick, because you'll know exactly what this means. And of course, it was a little tiny mucker's shovel.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  Fantastic, fantastic. Very nice, very nice. So I mean, he sort of, you know, he would have been booted up, but then the family relocates to London, which is probably very good timing for the future president. And Joe, his dad, is the American ambassador. And basically, this gives the history oriented Jack a ringside seat for the collapse of the European order. And he does, he does actually drive through or get driven through Nazi Germany. Tell us a little bit about what he sees and what he perceives.

• 31:07Speaker 05

  It's, it's, it's, he's the sort of Forrest Gump, or if you know the Woody Allen movie, he's a Zelig. He's a Zelig type figure to, to, to an amazing degree. And this was great fun for me to write about. It's sort of in the heart of, or in the middle of the second, of the first volume. Because as you say, he travels all over Europe. Really, beginning in 1937, before his father is ambassador, he and his best friend Len Billings travel around the continent when tensions are already building. But then in 38 and especially in 39, Jack Kennedy has an extraordinary travel abroad or study abroad experience. Because through his father's connections,

• 31:48Speaker 05

  he's able to visit a number of countries, ultimately, as you say, Nazi Germany in late August of 1939.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  See it up close. He intersects there with Joe Junior, who's doing his own travels. And in fact, Jack is asked by the chargé de ferres in the US Embassy in Berlin to take a message back to London, to his father, and I think by extension to Neville Chamberlain. And the message says, war is coming within a week. Jack does what he's told, brings the message back, and sure enough, war comes within a week. So as you say, what a, what an experience for a student of history and international affairs to have this experience. He also spends a little time working in the embassy. He works a little bit at the US Embassy in Paris. And this puts, puts him in a position to return to Harvard for his final year

• 32:43Speaker 05

  and to write a senior thesis in effect on what he has seen.

• 32:49Speaker 05

  Specifically, yes, firsthand, but it's really about why the British seem ill-prepared for war, given that they've been through a war in, in, in, in recent memory, World War One, and have so many warning signs about what is to come. That's really the heart of the senior thesis.

• 33:07Speaker 04

  This is so mind blowing, because if he is the, you know, the little post boy to take the message home to both his father and to Chamberlain. Both his father and Chamberlain have already chosen the wrong side. Because let's not forget, it's 1938, when Chamberlain comes with his rolled up piece of paper, saying, you know, I have peace in our time. Do we have any indication whether the young Jack Kennedy, future President Kennedy, thinks they're wrong? Or does he just, you know, is he wrong footed as well?

• 33:36Speaker 05

  I think initially, it's a great question. Initially, he too is, I think, wrong footed, or he's inclined to believe, follow his father's position. His father is an arch appeaser. Even after Chamberlain's, even after Chamberlain, in effect, abandons appeasement, Joe Kennedy clings to that policy. You need to make a deal with Hitler. And more importantly, for the United States, we need to keep out of this war. And by this point, by the time we get into the middle part of 39, I think Jack Kennedy has, in effect, begun to split from his father. This is a very fascinating development. Because as you pointed out earlier, he and his brother are

• 34:18Speaker 05

  so devoted to their father, so disinclined to challenge their father. But I think that Jack Kennedy, partly through his professors at Harvard, partly through his own experiences in Europe, comes to see that his father's position is untenable. In other words, isolationism won't work for the United States. Appeasement of Hitler won't work. While Joe Kennedy Junior sticks very close to his father's position. This is a really interesting development between the two brothers.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, absolutely. And Joe, the chosen older brother, will always remain loyal. Jack, the one who read books and maybe understands a bit more about what's going on in the world, breaks free of him. No matter where they stand on this or how nuanced their position, war does come. And Pearl Harbor happens. And both brothers, whatever they might have thought about their father's position on appeasement, both go to war. And they, I mean, should Jack even have been allowed into, you know, any kind of military combat? Because he, he had a, he had a ruined back. He had an undiagnosed adrenal disease. You know, he'd been, had that sickly childhood and people would later find out all the things that ailed him. But should he have been ever allowed near combat?

• 35:34Speaker 04

  Or did he mask all of those weaknesses so well that nobody would have noticed anyway?

• 35:38Speaker 05

  I mean, on some level, he should not have been allowed anywhere near a torpedo boat, as they were called, in the, in the South Pacific. Because of these health, health ailments, as you say. On the other hand, he was both able to mask them. And I think they were maybe less debilitating than some historians, some biographers have suggested. This is a theme really throughout my volumes, that Joe, that Jack Kennedy's health problems in some ways have been exaggerated in, in that I don't think they ultimately kept him from doing the things he was determined to do. In this case, my country has called me. I'm determined to serve.

• 36:22Speaker 05

  I don't want to be seated at a desk in Washington. I want to be in the heart of the action. And here I have to give Joe Kennedy Senior, the father, a certain amount of credit. Because it's partly through Joe Senior's intervention. Because he knows people in the American government and in the Navy, in, in senior positions. He helps get Jack the, I don't know, the run around to allow him to serve and, and to go off and of course, then have his, um, his experience, uh, his battle experience in the Solomons.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  So in the Solomons, as you say, and it's, it's one of the, if I can put it this way, that, you know, one of the sexiest assignments, the PT boat. I mean, you should explain to everyone the glamour of the PT boat, because so many people wanted to be on the PT boat.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Well, the PT boat, yes, exactly right. Sexy, glamorous. They ride high in the water. They're fast. They're nimble. And so you can imagine why young men in Jack's position, and Jack was very comfortable on the water. He was an expert sailor. He had spent time since he was a little kid off Hyannis Port, learning how to navigate boats and how to sail. So it doesn't surprise me that he thought, ah, yes. Rather than be on some battleship or destroyer, I want to command one of these boats, which has a crew of maybe 12.

• 37:42Speaker 05

  You can be in a more dramatic role. What he didn't realise was that they were also deeply vulnerable to Japanese attack.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  And of course, so many PT boats were lost as a result of this vulnerability. Uh, I don't know that in the end, they served a hugely important military role. But this is what he wanted. This is the assignment he craved. And he proved in the PT training to be really good at manning these boats. Uh, and so he got a justified position as commander of the now famous boat, PT 109.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Well, just, just before we get to that, I mean, because of the, you know, by dint of the fact he was born in the, you know, 19, you know, through the 1930s and 40s, we've got photographs. So you've got these impossibly glamorous pictures of Jack Kennedy on the, on, on his PT boat. Looking to all intents and purposes as if he's just a playboy in driving a speedboat. But, but he's in, you know, he's in a battle arena. It's, it's crazy. So right, PT 109. So we have to, we take us to the night of the 2nd of August, 1943. We are in the Blackett Strait. Where is the Blackett Strait?

• 38:58Speaker 05

  It's right in the Solomons. It's a very important passageway, hence the patrolling of several PT boats night after night. Because they're looking for Japanese destroyers to perhaps intercept, or at least be in a position to know what the Japanese are up to. And so they're sent out on really nightly patrols. And Lieutenant Kennedy, of course, his boat is one of them on this particular night.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  And so it's a moonless night, we should say as well. So it's dark, it's pitch black. I mean, you know, the drama is unbearable. And suddenly, this Japanese destroyer, let's see, Amagiri, strikes and it cuts this boat in half.

• 39:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  Now, I mean, that, first of all, that just sounds as though it's a death knell for everybody. It isn't for everybody. Tell us, tell us who goes through what.

• 39:49Speaker 05

  Well, and, and we could say here, I think, Anita, that Jack Kennedy deserves his share of blame. Nobody, nobody would say that he's heroic.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  Um, for this part of the story, in other words, allowing his boat to be rammed in this way. There are certain extenuating reasons for why this happened. I don't think he was incompetent in allowing this to happen, but the point is that it does. And as you say, really, everybody should have been killed on board, but miraculously, all but two of the crew members survive.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  Which is a miracle because half of this ship is on fire.

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  The men, you know, two of the men are killed instantly and the rest are in this pitch black water on a moonless night in the Pacific, hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.

• 40:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, and they have to decide what to do now. Shark infested waters, there's sharks all around them. And of course, the Japanese could appear at any moment. And Jack Kennedy, as the commander, makes the decision, we're going to swim for that island that we can see over in the distance. And what ensues is a three or four hour swim in which he has to tow one of his boatmates, one of his subordinates basically has to tow him with a belt that he bites into, if I can put it this way. And he tows this fellow and they somehow make it to the, to the island.

• 41:14Speaker 05

  And it's, it's, it's just a remarkable sequence of events. And it takes a full week to intricate set of developments in during that week before they are actually finally rescued. And a week with close calls, I might add, I might add, but, but they make it. And I'll just say, Anita, that I do think, and I'm not the first to say this, those actions by Lieutenant Kennedy after the ramming, we can be critical of him leading up to the ramming, but I think heroic is not too strong a word, even though we throw it around too much these days for what he did in that week after.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, I think completely an understatement. I mean, you know, he goes out, he brings one back, then he goes and he brings another one. What I love about these men is that, you know, he, after taking in his badly burned comrade, who, as you say, was gripping onto a belt with his teeth, he goes back for another friend called Bucky Harris. And finally, when he pulls him ashore, Harris turns around and says to him, for a man from Boston, you're certainly putting up a great exhibition out here. I mean, it's just like an understatement after understatement. But this is the mythology of a president, a future president. I mean, you know, not many can claim, I don't know, I mean, Washington, Eisenhower, how many former US presidents can claim that kind of battle mythology?

• 42:40Speaker 05

  Well, very few of them can. And here we need to come back to Joe Kennedy, because Joe Senior, because Joe says, first to himself and then to Jack, this story of PT 109 is one that we've got to make the electorate here in Massachusetts, in the 11th district, we've got to make them fully aware of this. Most of them are aware of it because this was front page news when it happened in the Boston Globe, which is the local paper. But we've really got to make this widely known. And so he engineers an effort, if you will, to make sure that this is widely known. I think it becomes very important to Jack Kennedy's political career, no question about it. And that's substantially, I think, due to his father's intervention.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, yes, I mean, it's sort of almost bonkers, isn't it? He comes back and he's already here, everyone knows about what's happened and he's already been back yet because, you know, his dad's been going into overdrive with the propaganda.

• 43:35Speaker 05

  What's just so interesting about this is that his older brother has to see the kind of publicity that his slacker brother, who never seems to amount to anything, has received for this.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  And to go back a little bit, the senior thesis that we talked about earlier is published as a book.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  It's unbearable to be his brother.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  It becomes a minor bestseller. Joe Junior's senior thesis wasn't published. So little by little, I think you see how the younger brother begins to overshadow the older brother, how difficult this is, understandably enough for Joe Junior. And now with PT 109, where he thinks, why did my brother allow his boat to be rammed?

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Why is no one talking about that?

• 44:17Speaker 05

  Some, some hero he is. I just think this is a very hard time for, for, for Joe Junior.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  Which may explain, I suppose, what happens next to the oldest son, Joe Junior, because it's, it's almost exactly a year later in August, 1944, the, the Prince, the man who should have been president, the one who'd been groomed since birth by his father to be president, decides to take a colossal risk. I mean, just talk us through what happens to Joe Junior.

• 44:50Speaker 05

  You know, Honey Fitz allegedly said on the day of Joe Junior's birth in 1915, who knows if this is apocryphal, but Honey Fitz allegedly said, this is the future president of the United States. So literally from birth.

• 45:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 05

  This has been promised for Joe Junior. In 1944, partly, I suspect, and I suggest in the book, I don't have deep, you know, direct proof of this, but partly because of Jack's exploits and the publicity he received for his exploits, Joe Junior basically says, I've got to match what Jack has done, or I've got to figure out a way to be on the front page myself, win some medals for this. And he volunteers what, for what is, in a sense, a kind of suicide mission, a kind of flying bomb.

• 45:50Speaker 05

  From Southern England, he and his copilot are going to fly over towards France. At a certain moment, they're going to bail and then this aircraft laden with munitions.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Twenty-three thousand five hundred and sixty-two pounds of explosives, Frederick.

• 46:10Speaker 05

  Yes, it's exactly, you're, you're, you're filling in beautifully. I, um, this flying bomb is going to then explode on a key target on, in coastal France, a German, obviously a German target. But before they can bail, it explodes midair and no trace of either pilot is found. That's how, that's how, in fact, the wreckage is not even really found. That's how intense this explosion is.

• 46:41Speaker 04

  The thing about the Kennedys is that they live a life of soap opera. I mean, it is that dramatic. So the last message that the Prince leaves for his king father, that Joe Junior leaves for his dad is, I'm about to go into my final act. If I don't come back, tell my dad, despite our differences, that I love him very much. Bloody hell, Frederick. I mean, just, you know, if you, if you wrote that, people would go, oh, that's hard to believe. But he did.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  He did, and note, no mention of mom. Most young boys, not young boys, most young men would probably say, I mean, they're more attached often to their mother, or at least in a moment of crisis, they're crying out for their mother. But in this case, he says, tell dad that I love him. And of course, they don't have many differences. So that's an interesting assertion as well. He is so close to, to, to his father on the great issues of war and peace, also in terms of their position on domestic politics. They are, you know, two peas in a pod.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  How does the family react? How does Joe Senior react?

• 47:51Speaker 05

  I think this is the most difficult time in Joe Kennedy's life, Joe Senior's life, and in the mother's life. I think this is the beginning of a harrowing few months for them, again, because of who this is.

• 48:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 05

  The Prince, as you say. And they, I don't know that they have favorites per se, because they love their children, but to the extent that they do, I think for both of them, it's, it's the firstborn. I mean, I guess that has a, the firstborn always has a special kind of place in a way. And I don't think they can quite bring themselves to believe this. I think Joe Senior blames himself in part because of, you know, his positions that he's taken, that somehow the reputation, or the, the suggestion was allowed to be made that the Kennedys were yellow, meaning cowardly.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Because of the position they took on Hitler.

• 48:50Speaker 05

  Well, and also because there was a suggestion, which I think is false, but a suggestion arose that when the Battle of Britain began, Joe Kennedy as ambassador was cowardly and he retreated each night into the countryside outside London because he didn't want to be subjected to the, to the bombs. I don't think it's true, but I do think that Joe Junior felt for a long time, and maybe Jack did too, the reason we have to serve in this war is to show the world that this is not true about our father and it's not true about the family. And hence this volunteer, this mission that Joe, Joe Junior went on.

• 49:31Speaker 04

  I mean, it's, it's all so painful.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  I just wonder if Joe had not died in that way and been taken from the family in that way, would there have been a President Kennedy at all? Because Jack showed no inclination to wanting power and influence, or pleasing his dad the way that Joe Junior wanted to. But with the prince gone, I mean, it's sort of a, we have the model of Henry VIII and the death of his brother Arthur, where he suddenly has to be king, you know, and then does it, and boy, does he. I mean, is it the same thing that happens here?

• 50:04Speaker 05

  I mean, I think it's something similar. You put it in an interesting way when you said, would there have been a President Kennedy? I don't know. If you had put it slightly differently, if you had said, you know, if Joe Junior doesn't die, would Jack have entered politics? I would have been pretty confident in saying yes. And I'm not, I think there are biographers and historians who disagree with me on this. In other words, they believe that if Joe Junior survives, Jack would have gone into journalism, or he would have been a college professor, or he would have done something else. I think he was destined for politics. Because already in 1942, we haven't talked about his flaming

• 50:45Speaker 05

  romance with Inga Arvad, a Danish beauty, but he, in their pillow talk, and she was, by the way, a suspected Nazi spy, to just add to the drama of this whole story, but in their pillow talk, she and Jack mused about him entering politics. And she even said something like, Jack, I think you're destined to go all the way, meaning become president. So he was interested in politics long before his brother died. And in fact, at Harvard, he was the one who was more inclined to study government and to really immerse himself in political affairs. We've already talked about his reading interests and so on. So I do think he would have perhaps, I think he would have maybe at some point

• 51:27Speaker 05

  entered politics himself. But there's no question that Joe Junior's death has a profound effect on his early career and what his father believes. Because his father now says, Jack, you're going to take over this mantle. You're the one. And we're going to make every effort to make you enter politics. And Jack, as I say, for his own reasons, but also his father's encouragement, does so.

• 51:57Speaker 04

  Well, you've set us up brilliantly, because next time, we are going to look at the political rise and rise of Jack Kennedy as he runs for Congress, wins, starts this very long and successful climb. And in our next episode, he becomes the most eligible bachelor in America with a private life that is, shall we say, as colorful and complicated as his father's. So do be with us for that. And Frederick is going to be with us again for that. Frederick, thank you so very much.

• 52:27Speaker 05

  Oh, it's my pleasure.

• 52:28Speaker 04

  Till the next time we meet, then. It's goodbye.

• 52:38Speaker 06

  Observe: The North American Dad. 50s. Great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, "Dang, that's a good offer." The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle, no one called him "boss." He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision.

• 53:40Speaker 07

  I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

• 53:50Speaker 07

  That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest.

• 54:01Speaker 07

  Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Now streaming on Disney+.