Dr. Sarah Hensley: The Love Doc on Soulmates and Attachment Styles

This week, Bunnie welcomes Dr. Sarah Hensley, PhD in Social Psychology, relationship coach, and resident love doc. Dr. Sarah breaks down attachment styles, the difference between healthy and toxic dynamics, and why we tend to repeat destructive relationship cycles. She also weighs in on the Justin/Hailey/Selena drama as a human behavior specialist. Plus, Bunnie and Dr. Sarah get into why women often end up as “fixers” in relationships, narcissists, gaslighting, and how family dynamics can shape your love life. Dr. Sarah Hensley: IG https://www.instagram.com/dr.sarahhensley_lovedoc/?hl=en | The Love Doc Podcast https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-love-doc-podcast--6390558 Watch Full Episodes & More: www.dumbblondeunrated.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bunnie XO?

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• 0:42Bunnie XO?

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• 1:27Bunnie XO?

  Whoever they choose to lead them will have absolute power deciding who stays and who gets taken out. Who makes money and who walks away with nothing? In a game of power where loyalty and trust are the currency, will the most powerful reality contestant in TV history be able to keep the family happy? And if they're overthrown by the mob, who's gonna step up and become the new Don? Let the games begin. Watch The Mob, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. For bundle subscribers, terms apply. I'll be tuning in. Hey, guys, I need to ask you a question. I want to know why and the hell are you not on Patreon? I don't think you guys even realize how much content we have on Patreon. Let me break it down for you. We have the Bunny X O Show, we have Meet the Deportes, we have Popaganda, we have more shows that we're adding.

• 2:11Bunnie XO?

  And not to mention, we have the visuals of the podcast. Head over to www.patreon.com backslash dumb blonde podcast and sign up. Bunny X O. She was a Vegas girl. Bunny X O.

• 2:32Bunnie XO?

  Is this thing on? Hello, babies. Welcome back to another episode of Dumb Blonde. Today's guest is someone that I have been dying to talk to, Dr. Sarah Hensley. She's not only a relationship coach, but she's also a badass with a PhD in psychology. Welcome to the show.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:52Bunnie XO?

  I am so stoked that you're here. I told you just a second ago that before you came on, I was researching you last night and I was just like, oh my God, this woman's brain. I could sit here and pick your brain for days. And also I didn't pick up on the southern accent online.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, people ask me about my accent all the time and it's funny because when I'm very relaxed, I have more of a southern accent. And then when I'm like presenting, it kind of fades away a little bit. And I think that's because I took a speech class in graduate school and they tell you, you know, you need to enunciate. And I think feedback I got was like, less in your accent. So I kind of, it kind of comes in and out a little bit. And sometimes people notice it when I do more laid back videos.

• 3:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  On TikTok.

• 3:35Bunnie XO?

  I love the accent though. I think it adds to your charm because you're already such a beautiful woman. And so you've got that little southern draw too. I feel like that would draw people from a psychological standpoint. I feel like that would draw more people in because it's so sweet and just like inviting.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:49Bunnie XO?

  Is that wrong?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. You know, I don't know. It's just sometimes it pops up and it's interesting because when I showcase my real life on TikTok, like, nobody cares. It's like, it gets very few views, you know, like you're, you're popular because you're cool, you know? And me, people are just like, get in your car, shut up, talk about the dismissive avoidant, you know? So it's like, when, when I do have those laid back videos that showcases a little bit more of who I am.

• 4:12Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  You know, they don't, they don't do as well. People really just want to know about relationships.

• 4:18Bunnie XO?

  I wonder if that's because you started your page as a niche. So it's like your followers followed you for that exact niche. Whereas my followers know I'm just batshit crazy. So they're just like, oh, we don't know what we're gonna get, you know? But like with you, people want to learn. And what's wild is I was talking to my husband last night and I told him that you were coming on. And he was like, baby, when you do, when you have doctors on the podcast, they, speaking of my husband, you want to say hi to him really quick?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 4:43Bunnie XO?

  Sorry.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Hello, Jelly Roll.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Hi, I was just telling your wife that I'm seeing you in concert at Railbird.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yes, that's where we're from.

• 5:00Bunnie XO?

  I love you, baby. I'll call you when I'm done.

• 5:05Bunnie XO?

  Okay, I won't be done till six. I have two podcasts today. Love you, bye. Sorry. He just, his schedule is so busy that he literally like, I have to get him whenever I can get him. But I was talking to my husband about you coming on last night and he was like, baby, when you do podcasts with doctors, they go so viral because people just want to learn. So maybe on your page, it's just like, people just want to learn. They want you to teach them.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, tell me about the dismissive avoidant. Like, don't, I don't care about your house. I don't care about your dogs. I don't care about any of that stuff. Just.

• 5:40Bunnie XO?

  Maybe start a separate page. Start a separate page that's just your life and separate, you know, like keep it separated.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  And I do that.

• 5:47Bunnie XO?

  So what made you get into psychology and then also get into being a relationship coach?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been a really long journey. So, you know, I really did not know what I wanted to major in in undergrad. I just kind of picked psychology because I liked my intro class. And I really liked the major. I was very interested in social psychology, which is really the study of human interaction. And I wasn't really sure when I graduated if I wanted to go to law school or if I wanted to go get my doctorate in social psychology. Because just having a bachelor's in psychology, the career, you know, aspect is a little bit more limited with just a bachelor's degree. So I knew I wanted to move on. I ended up going to Texas and doing some stuff at the University of Texas, volunteering there in some of the research labs.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  And then I moved back home. My parents had moved from Ohio to Lexington and I applied at UK. I applied at a couple of other places, got accepted to UK and just kind of dove in and went for it. But what really got me into relationship science was that my marriage was really bad. So I got married the beginning of graduate school. And you know, it's one of those things where you get married kind of young and you don't really know what you're doing. And it's all about partying and it's all about fun. And then you try to make a real life with someone. And you find out it's not a good fit at all.

• 7:14Bunnie XO?

  Regent sister.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, I'm saying it wasn't good fit is being really nice. It was actually like really, really awful. And so.

• 7:23Bunnie XO?

  Was it an abusive relationship?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, there was, there was abuse. There was a lot of infidelity on his end. Um, and he actually, I don't know how much of my story you know or not, but he passed away in 2020 of his addictions. Um, and that is something that has been a, a, a really big motivating factor in what I'm doing now. Um, but to kind of go back, I really was just trying to save my relationship. And so as a social psychologist, I was a trained scientist. So I was looking at the research on narcissism, on attachment, on just trying to figure out, you know, what is this dynamic? Like what is going on and how can I fix it? Because I was the fixer.

• 8:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  You know, and I wanted to try to make it all better. And I would just read research and I would just try to apply what I was learning. And unfortunately, it was one of those things where I knew so much about the problem, but I just did not know how to fix it. And I, I, I'll admit I had, I had issues too. I had pretty significant attachment issues. So, um, you know, it's not all one sided.

• 8:25Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  But yeah, I became interested in that. I also have a, another concentration in health psychology and those two things kind of merged together. I was really interested in, for example, how a healthy marriage is a buffer against the effects of chronic illness. And how bad marriages make chronic illness worse. And, and why does that social support and that support in a marriage make such an impactful difference? And so, um, I was really interested in that research. And then I went into the academy and was a professor for quite a long time. And I was at a smaller teaching university, really was just focused on teaching. But I taught all the stuff nobody really wanted to take, like statistics and research. Methods and that kind of stuff.

• 9:08Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  So within those courses, I would use relationship science as, you know, examples of methodology and things like that. And I just fell in love with it. I mean, I'm fascinated by relationships, all kinds of relationships, but really romantic relationships, why they work, why they don't work, why people do what they do. It's just always been something that has fascinated me.

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• 10:29Speaker 01

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• 10:59Bunnie XO?

  I think it's amazing that you could, that, because I'm, I have the same personality trait, is when something hurts us deep enough.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:07Bunnie XO?

  We, we don't let it, we don't become victims. We want to know the why, and we want to know how to fix it.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 11:14Bunnie XO?

  Why do you think so many women are fixers? Whereas like, I know there's a couple of men out there that are, but the majority of the fixers in relationships is women.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Bunnie XO?

  Is it just a like, motherly instinct to want to? Is motherly the right word to use?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do think there's just some cultural conditioning there where women are supposed to be caretakers, are supposed to be nurturing, and a lot of women are behind the scenes, you know, holding their families together, right? Making sure everybody has what they need.

• 11:44Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  And I think that that there's a lot of cultural conditioning around that. I think there's, if we look at the attachment science too, there's such a difference in how little girls are raised versus little boys are raised. And little girls are often raised to have emotions and their emotions are more accepted. Whereas little boys, it's, it's don't cry, right? It's don't, don't show your emotions. And so I think women are just by nature, the nurturers and sort of wanting to make sure everybody's okay.

• 12:13Bunnie XO?

  Yes. So circling back to what you just said about daughters and sons being raised differently. Now that we're in such a different era of life, I feel like people are a lot more open to raising boys differently. How would you suggest mothers and fathers open up that emotional, you know, just be able to teach their sons how to be emotional without being, I guess, too overly emotional?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So I think with parenting, the key is, one, consistency, two, it's, it's coming to the table calm and regulated. Because if your child is very dysregulated and very, you know, has very high emotions going on, if you come to the table and your emotions are high, two dysregulated people can't regulate. And so I think for little boys especially, validating their emotions is really important. So saying something like, hey buddy, I know you're really disappointed about that and that's understandable and, you know, we still have to do this thing, you know, you can't go do whatever it is you wanted to do. So just giving that emotional validation, but with this calm nature, right? And so you're not dismissing their emotions.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  I think little boys, first, I have so many clients who don't even realize the depth of their emotional neglect in childhood and, and some of the things that their parents said to them.

• 13:36Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Right? Like, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about, right? Or lock it up, you know, quit that crying. And so for little boys, you know, a lot of them can be very, very sensitive. I mean, we do have Genetic predispositions to be more sensitive or not. And if you have a more sensitive child, being able to validate by staying and staying calm and just saying, hey, that's okay. You know, I know you're upset and, and it's okay to be upset and you're not going to get what you want. Right?

• 14:03Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  And that's life. And so it's really emotional regulation with good boundaries with your kids. And I think consistency with that, holding your boundaries really consistent, but also not punishing them over their emotions and letting them know you understand that their emotions. And I mean, that's just part of respect. You know, I think kids need to have respect as well.

• 14:23Bunnie XO?

  Which I feel like kids nowadays do not have that.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:26Bunnie XO?

  It's wild. Like, it's, it's kind of like an epidemic that's going on.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  It is. It is.

• 14:31Bunnie XO?

  Why do you think that is? Why do you think that there's such a lack of respect with children in the household?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  I think, because I think we are now seeing the Gen X kids that were such a lost generation.

• 14:45Bunnie XO?

  And babies having babies type thing.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Severe attachment issues. Yeah. I mean, Gen X, they were the generation that just, you know, they're the lost generation. Like, nobody cared about them. They were the latchkey kids. They, they were neglected. And so they have a lot of, Gen X has a lot of anger, you know? And I mean, I'm the eldest millennial, so I was kind of raised as a Gen X kid and my brother's Gen X. And I think you're Gen X, right?

• 15:06Bunnie XO?

  I'm Gen X, yes.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I don't know what your childhood was like.

• 15:08Bunnie XO?

  I was neglected.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:10Bunnie XO?

  I got a lot of fucking issues, let me tell you.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  I understand. I mean, I grew up with a bipolar dad, you know? You never knew what you were gonna get. So, but I think with Gen X, nobody cared about their emotional experiences. It, it was very much drilled into them that life's tough, who cares? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, go figure it out. I don't have time for you. And I think that they hold some anger towards that and that there's a lot of attachment issues in that generation, in the elder millennial generation. And then now we're seeing babies, right? So we're seeing parents that are maybe more dysregulated with their kids because of their attachment issues. And that just continues the cycle of insecure attachment being passed on to

• 15:56Speaker 01

  kids. And then we have social media. I mean, kids are able to see anything and everything.

• 16:03Bunnie XO?

  Oh, it's so bad.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  It is, it's so bad. And so they're mimicking and modeling things that are maybe too Too inappropriate for their development.

• 16:12Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  And we have kid influencers now, right?

• 16:16Bunnie XO?

  And all the stuff that's coming out about though, that like the, the family vloggers and stuff like that. I mean, it's just, it's really horrific what's happening right now.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's insane. And, and so I think we have another generation of kids that is kind, they're, a lot of them are being raised by technology. You know?

• 16:33Bunnie XO?

  iPad babies, like iPad kids.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and so they're just learning what, what they see. They're modeling what, you know, some influencer says on YouTube or whatnot.

• 16:43Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Um, and then when they give disrespect, their parents, because of their own attachment issues and their anger and the things that they've held on to from their childhood, can come out, right? No, you need to respect me. Because that's how their boomer parents raised them. Like, you know, you are not deserving of respect because you're down here and I'm up here, right? And so when you're modeled disrespect, you're gonna want to give disrespect back because kids are human. They're human and they, they want to be seen and they want to be nurtured and loved and they want to receive a certain amount of humanity and respect. And I think that we've just had this notion wired in that it's like,

• 17:22Speaker 01

  you know, you must respect me just because I'm your parent, right? And I think kids push back against that, like, I'm also a human being. Right? And so when my needs aren't met, or when I don't understand why this isn't fair, I need somebody to explain that to me. And we can cut them off and say, I don't have to explain to you, right? Cause I'm the parent. But they're human and they need explanation and they want some understanding. That's how they are starting to learn to navigate the world.

• 17:50Bunnie XO?

  Wow. Yeah. I just, I'm having flashbacks to whenever, you know, we got custody of our, of Jay's daughter, um, when she was seven years old, she's about to be 17. And I just remember I was raised by like, uh, here, no, children should be seen, not heard household. And you know, it was very like, you're gonna work if you want to earn this. And like, I was so like, almost militant in the beginning. Because I didn't know how else to be. And now compared to what I used to be to now is like, you know, in the 10 year process was, you know, she showed me that like, Children are like just little souls and they're gonna do whatever they want to do. We're just here to guide them, you know?

• 18:30Bunnie XO?

  And we get so much more of a positive response from her when we, I don't want to say we're friendlier with her. It's not friend, but it's more of like giving her a chance to be able to make a mistake and you know, not drilling her for it. Whereas like back in the day when we got in trouble, we probably got spanked. Or like, you know, I grew up in a very abusive household, so it's okay. So, you know, it's just hearing you talk like that just makes me feel so much better. Cause I'm like, okay, maybe I did learn something from her along the way, you know? Let's circle back though. I heard you say that your father was bipolar. What was your relationship with your parents like?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  My relationship with my dad was not good. It had never been good.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  He, you know, I was two years old, so I don't remember this, but he had a nervous breakdown when I was two years old, before he was diagnosed as bipolar. And you know, from what my mom has told me and my older brother can remember, it was, it was a really bad time. He was very, very manic. And had some very intense episodes. And he was hospitalized for a number of weeks. So there's an attachment break right there, right? Like as a two-year-old and key attachment years are really from zero to five. And so there was this big stressor in my family where he was hospitalized for a number of weeks. And my mom was just trying to, you know, work part-time dental hygiene and take care of these two kids.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  And we really didn't have very much money. And I think when he came home, he was very heavily medicated. And he was then heavily medicated for many, many, many things throughout his life. And so he was not a very functional person. He wasn't really able to hold a job or keep a job. And that was a lot of instability in my childhood. And I think I had a lot of anger and resentment over kind of like, why can't you get it together? To provide for the family because you just never knew, you know? You never knew when you were gonna get off the bus and come home and dad lost another job, right? Or, you know, well, and you- Have to quit dance lessons or you have to, you know, we, we gotta sell stuff or we gotta do whatever.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  So there was a lot of financial instability and then there was just, he brought a lot of emotional instability.

• 20:44Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Um, my mom is who I would classify in attachment as more of a dismissive avoidant. So she was more of like stoic, emotionally unavailable, um, but very, very loving, very, um, would do any acts of service, right? She was, she was always around, very instrumentally supportive, but she didn't really know how to navigate the distress and the emotions of my dad's nervous breakdown and, and how to explain it to us or how to deal with it. And so my mom's just kind of like a push through soldier through type of person and my dad was very opposite. It was very, you know, he could be okay. You could walk in the room and it was, hi, how are you doing? How was your day? Everything's good. Or, you know, you left your shoes out and I tripped over them. So I chucked them out into the yard and I'm gonna scream at you, right?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Or, um, it was very hard to have friends over because I was always really embarrassed because I never knew if my dad was gonna lose his temper or.

• 21:37Bunnie XO?

  Had to walk on eggshells.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very much a walk on eggshells type of situation. And just looking back into my childhood, I think every girl wants to have like the superhero dad. The dad that has it together, the dad that is, can be relied upon, the dad that's gonna cuddle you and say, you're the prettiest, most wonderful little princess and I'll always protect you.

• 22:00Bunnie XO?

  Well, they're our first loves.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:01Bunnie XO?

  They really are.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  And I just didn't have that. You know, I just had a dad that I saw made my mom so miserable.

• 22:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Brought so much instability to our family and I had a lot of anger for so many years. And it wasn't until, he passed away two years ago, it wasn't until really I saw him on his deathbed that just, I had forgiven him, but I had to see him at that weak point. Bless you.

• 22:27Bunnie XO?

  Sorry.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  No, you're fine. Um, I had to see him at that weak point, you know, on his deathbed to really say, okay, I can let it go. You know, I can let that go because my childhood, there were so many great things about it, you know, I was loved. And um, I had my basic needs met and there are so many people that had it much worse than I did.

• 22:47Bunnie XO?

  I say the same thing, but that your feelings are still valid and you know, your, your, your story is your story. So what's super traumatic to somebody else might not be as traumatic to another person, but that doesn't mean that you weren't traumatized.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so it definitely contributed to my attachment trauma. Um, and my dad also, I truly believe he had some covert narcissism. He had a really awful childhood. So he didn't know that his dad that raised him was not his real dad. Until a family member spilled that secret when he was 18.

• 23:17Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  And so that was pretty traumatizing for him. And then

• 23:22Bunnie XO?

  That'll like split somebody's brain because it's like you feel like you have just been betrayed your entire life.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Completely. And that side of the family, it was all about, his mother was very narcissistic and it was all about appearances. It was all about, you know, how we present to the community and how we present to the outside world. But in the inside of the house could be extremely dysfunctional. And I know that my grandfather, who the man who raised him, he was pretty physically abusive with my dad. So I know that my dad, you know, he really had it, you know, pretty bad when he was growing up. And, and he definitely had some covert narcissism going on too. So, you know, again, it's just trauma that just gets passed down.

• 24:06Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. It's just, it's generational.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 24:08Bunnie XO?

  What, okay. So I hear you talk, I have so many questions for you. I don't even know where to start. So I hear you talk about all these attachment styles.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 24:16Bunnie XO?

  Let's talk about all the attachment styles and then tell me what your attachment style is.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yay. Okay. So attachment is on a spectrum. So you kind of have to picture this line with two opposite ends. On one end, we have attachment anxiety and attachment anxiety always makes you want to seek connection, seek intimacy. And closeness with your partner. And then on the other end, we have attachment avoidance. And this makes you want to isolate, go back to your independence. So disconnection from the partner. And then right smack dab in the middle, we have secure attachment, which those people, very few of those people out there right now, actually, that are, were born secure. Those people are able to have really healthy romantic relationships. They function very well, very healthily inside of relationships. So if you, if you just go into this end of the spectrum,

• 25:06Speaker 01

  like between secure and anxious, there are people that only stay in this space. And we call those people anxious preoccupies. So anxious preoccupies usually grew up in homes where they will say, I was loved, my parents were very kind, usually a nuclear family. So parents that stayed married. And they said, you know, my parents got along okay. I had a great childhood, but when I probe further in the attachment interview, I usually find there was something that happened in childhood where there was inconsistency in the affection and the emotional attunement to the child. So it might be something like, well, my parents were really great, but they worked a lot. My mom had two jobs, you know, and so I just didn't see them as much. But when they were home, they were really loving and, you know, really tuned in and very supportive.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Or it could be that there were a lot of kids in the family. So maybe we have a home with six, seven, eight kids, and they were kind of all treated as a group. There just wasn't enough individual attention to go around. Sometimes it was because maybe grandma got sick and moved in. And so then that just pulled the attention away from the kids and attention was on grandma. And so although parents really tried to do their best, they were very loving, they would ask their kids about their emotions, they would not invalidate their children. But they were pulled away for some reason, and it was just too inconsistent. And there's this psychological principle called intermittent reinforcement, which is basically this idea where sometimes your needs get met and other times your needs do not get met.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And when there's that inconsistency, it creates both anxiety and it creates addiction. So intermittent reinforcement is actually the foundation of addiction. Where, you know, if you think about drugs, you know, you get high and it's like, Great and you feel wonderful and then and that's when your need is met, right? When when your emotional pain is numbed or you get that high feeling and then when you come off the drug, you get a crash or you come down, you don't feel good. That's your need not being met and so it's that up, down, up, down. Same with gambling, you bet your money, you win, it feels great, you get the high. You bet your money again, you lose, right? Making you want to bet again. And so what happens to anxious preoccupied people is they are really love addicts. They become very addicted to other people.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  And they really get a lot of their self-worth and feelings of validation from being in a romantic relationship. I mean, if they're alone or single, to them, that feels kind of like death, like I am worthless or I am not worth anything if I don't have somebody loving me.

• 27:36Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And so anxious preoccupied individuals will always sort of try to over-connect, seek more connection than most people would want. They really struggle with their own independence in relationships. They really just want to be attached at the hip with their partner, right? It's kind of like, well, once we're in a relationship, we do everything together and um, they struggle.

• 27:57Bunnie XO?

  Built and bestie.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, they struggle to to meet their own needs. They struggle to self-soothe their own nervous system. They prefer what we call co-regulation, which is my partner needs to come in and be my source of soothing, right? They need to be my source of comfort instead of, you know, if my partner's unavailable or, you know, it's not appropriate to bring my partner in for whatever reason, I can't sit with my own difficult emotions. I need someone there. And they really want it to be the romantic partner to be there to just regulate their nervous system for them.

• 28:28Bunnie XO?

  Is that the same as being codependent?

• 28:29Speaker 01

  It is, they are very codependent, yes. So, yeah, it's an element of codependence for sure and anxious preoccupieds are are very codependent people because there's, you know, codependence is really, I'm not okay if you're not okay. And so anxious preoccupied people are very hyper-focused on what does my partner need me to be so that they're okay, so that they will stay in the relationship. And so they have deep fears around abandonment. They have um, a deep wound around not feeling good enough. And the "I'm not good enough" wound means that you can try harder, right? If I'm not good enough, I can try harder and then I'll be good enough. And so what ended up happening with that inconsistent reinforcement in childhood is that essentially there were times where their needs were met and they were like, "Okay",

• 29:14Speaker 01

  you know, like this feels really good. And then the times where their needs weren't met, they almost questioned like, "Well, what do I need to do to get my needs met?" Right? What do I need to be? And so a lot of these individuals have perfectionistic qualities to them. They really want to try to be what other people want them to be. And they can be big people pleasers in relationships. They don't really look at the other side of the coin, which is, "Is my partner giving me what I need inside of a relationship?" Because to them, it's like, "Well, any relationship's better than no relationship." So even if I'm in a relationship and my needs aren't being met, I'll just figure out how to twist myself into the right type of pretzel to try to get what I need from my partner.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  And they're very boundaryless inside of relationships. So they can kind of get walked on. And if a fight does start, their approach to conflict is often what we call a "Fawn Response", which is, "Oh, I'm sorry. You know, it's my fault. Please don't be angry with me." Just whatever it takes to smooth it over, because conflict could lead to abandonment. And that's their deepest fear. Wow. So they very much just try to be pleasing. They're very warm, very kind people. I always say each attachment has a superpower. And so the superpower of the anxious preoccupied person is their warmth and their kindness. And when you meet one, they just exude it. They just are just these people that just, they're like rays of sunshine. You know, they brighten the room. They make you feel so comfortable.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Because they're focused on other, right? Very focused on other people. And so that's their downfall, though, in relationships, is that they don't hold their boundaries and they will unfortunately stay in relationships where their needs just are not getting met. But to be fair, also, they have a really big needs bucket. Right. Right? So they can be very clingy. They can be extra needy. And they don't really know that they're too needy sometimes, right? They see their partner is not giving enough when sometimes they're asking too much. Right. Because they don't have that level of their own independence and their ability to meet their own needs.

• 31:21Bunnie XO?

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• 32:28Speaker 03

  Latte for Keenan?

• 32:29Speaker 04

  That's me.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Hey, you're

• 32:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  buying a car online on AutoTrader?

• 32:33Speaker 04

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• 32:39Speaker 03

  Cool. Enjoy.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  Buy your car online on AutoTrader. Really.

• 32:44Bunnie XO?

  Is it possible to have multiple attachment styles?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, there actually is an attachment style that has the whole spectrum. So we have a mixed attachment. So yes, I will, I'll tell you all about that. That is so true. Um, but I think in order to understand that attachment style, you have to understand the opposite end of the spectrum. So the people that are like on this end towards avoidance, so they stay between secure and avoidant, they're like, if this is white, this is black. If this is hot, this is cold. I mean, it's polar opposite. It's the dismissive avoidant. Okay. And so dismissive avoidance, interestingly enough, one of the things that they share in common with the anxious preoccupied is the majority of them say, I had a good childhood. I knew I was loved. Um, my parents stayed together. My parents were around all the time. And so when I dig deeper, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, okay, but why aren't you securely attached, right?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  You're sitting in front of me, right? And you have all these issues. What's going on? So I dig a little further and I ask a key question. I said, when you were a child, Could you go to your parents for emotional support? And I have to kind of define what emotional support is, which it's like talking about your actual emotions. Like, Mom, this happened to me and I feel sad, or I feel confused, or I feel rejected, or I feel worthless, or I feel whatever. And that's when their eyes kind of just widen, and they stop and they're like, oh. And I'm like, well, why not? And their answer is almost always the same. I just wouldn't have done that. And they have no real insight to why. They just go, I just never, I just wouldn't have done that.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  And I'm like, so was that just not the norm in your family? Like, nobody talked about emotions? They're like, oh, no, no, no. If I had, I would handle that, I would just handle that on my own. I would never talk to my parents about something that was bothering me or something that was going on that was hard in my life. And so really, what I end up finding out is that they had pretty profound emotional neglect, but they don't know they were emotionally neglected. So, you know, emotional neglect can look, it can look really benevolent, which is like, oh, you're fine, you're okay. Stop crying, settle down, shh, shh, shh. Don't get so upset, right? And really, that's just a mild dismissal

• 34:59Speaker 01

  of someone's emotional experience, right? Like, a child is upset and they have big emotions. That's normal. And when they're constantly being met with, oh, you're okay, stop crying, you know, stop throwing a fit, you're fine, you know, brush yourself off, get back out there, you're okay. It looks so benign, but it really has a profound impact on their blueprint for intimacy. Because those folks end up growing up and they have a really big wound of defectiveness. And defectiveness is different than I'm not good enough. Right. I'm not good enough means you can try harder. Defectiveness means I came out of the factory bad. Like, something's wrong with me and it can't be fixed.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  So, why should I even try to fix myself? Because it can't be fixed. And that's what's deep down in the subconscious for those, those folks. It's like when they're in childhood, they just, and you have to think toddler years, right? Like, two, three years old, having your emotions dismissed. And the little child looks around and they're like, well, I have all of these big emotions, but nobody else does. And when I display my emotions, I'm kind of told that that's bad. And then I'm supposed to make them go away. So something must be wrong with me that I have these. Right? And so they internalize this blueprint that emotions are weak and emotions should not be shared with other people and that everybody should handle their problems inside of themselves

• 36:25Speaker 01

  and not bring your problems to other people. Well, of course, then they get into an intimate, romantic relationship and they struggle with vulnerability. They struggle with emotional attunement. They really grow up with these, I always call them the blinders. They have these like proverbial blinders on where they are hyper focused on themselves. They're very hyper independent people. Their, their parents oftentimes just push them towards responsibility and achievement over emotional attunement. Right? It was like, do what you're supposed to, but how you feel about it doesn't matter. And so, and people end up being really fascinated with the dismissive avoidant because they can start out strong in relationships, like when

• 37:08Speaker 01

  relationships are low stakes in the beginning, they can actually kind of show up really well and they can show up kind of secure. I mean, they can meet people's needs and they seem really interested and really affectionate. And I don't know what it is about the four to six month mark with these folks. I guess that's just the time where the expectation for more intimacy arrives, they start pulling away.

• 37:28Bunnie XO?

  Well, it gets heavier.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:30Bunnie XO?

  You know, it's more settled in and it's more like, you know, like this is really happening.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:36Bunnie XO?

  This isn't just the fun first three months.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's when conflict might start to creep up, right? As people start to show a little bit more of who they are and their differences start to pop up, they really pull back.

• 37:47Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  And, and they can really just drop off and it can lead people feeling just kind of abandoned and betrayed. Like, where did you go? Right? You were this loving, affectionate person and now you barely talk to me, text me. You know, it's like they, they breadcrumb. They throw little breadcrumbs out there just to keep you hanging on. And if they do make it to marriage, which a lot of them do. Because they're dismissive avoidant people are also very concerned about what the outer world thinks. A lot of that family dynamic was about, you know, we behave well, we achieve, we're responsible people. And so they make it to the marriage stage because it's what they're supposed to do. Right? They view it as like, this is a cultural milestone I'm supposed to meet.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  But they are not equipped for a marriage relationship. They, when they make it towards that step, that commitment actually usually makes them pull away more.

• 38:40Bunnie XO?

  And they end up having affairs.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  They have, they are the most likely to cheat of all the attachment styles because they develop, all of their wounds around intimacy just start to really rise. The more connection, the more conflict, the more intimacy, it just, their wounds around that being weak and icky and not okay just start to rise. And so they pull back from it. Right? And they really struggle to meet people's needs. They struggle to prioritize their partner. They tend to be workaholics or hobbyaholics because they suppress all of their emotions. And so you have to have something to distract yourself to stay suppressed. So they can really be into their work or they have hobbies or dismissive avoidant women are actually a lot of times really into like

• 39:27Speaker 01

  hyper into their kids and ignore their spouse. Because they're just, you know, that afraid of intimacy deep down. And then we have the combo attachment style.

• 39:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I would have heard this one. Cause I used to think I was a dismissive avoidant and now that I've heard it, I'm like, I have like, I feel like I have a little bit of everything.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:42Bunnie XO?

  I'm just a whole smorgasbord, but I didn't have a good childhood. So I would be the first one to be like, yep, it came from my childhood.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yes. So the attachment style that has the holding spectrum is called the fearful avoidant. And that is born from childhood trauma. So that was my attachment style. I guarantee you it's probably your attachment style. It was my husband's attachment style. Um, before, you know, we did the work. But fearful avoidance comes from this break in trust between you and one or more of your parents.

• 40:10Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  So essentially the child, the very little child looks at one or both of the parents and goes, You have too many problems. You cannot love me in a way that feels good to me. And that was definitely my dad in, in, you know, in my household. And then when that trust break occurs, what sort of is imprinted into the intimacy blueprint and the subconscious or the attachment blueprint is, well, if I can't trust my own parent, who could I ever trust? Right?

• 40:42Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  And so they have this big wound around betrayal that they carry with them. And it almost becomes like this filter in their relationships where it's like, anything the partner does, they almost filter it as they must have the worst intentions for me, or they must have meant something negative by that, or they must feel a certain way. Because fearful avoidance are very hypervigilant people. Like you may notice, I don't know if in your own childhood, you had, if you walked into the room, you had to read the room.

• 41:12Bunnie XO?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Right? And that makes you very hypervigilant. Like look around, like, is dad okay? Right? So you read the expression. Or you read, you read the tempo, you read the vibe. Right? And so fearful avoidant individuals grow up and they're hypervigilant adults. They're very hyper attuned to other people's emotions, other people's expressions, other people's tone of voice. They notice patterns very quickly.

• 41:38Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Um, they're emotional supercomputers. Like they process emotions really, really quickly and make sense of situations really, really quickly. And when you think about what childhood trauma does to you, that's a survival strategy.

• 41:51Bunnie XO?

  Yes. You can ask anybody from my team. I'll walk into a room and I call everybody. I'll be like, this person's this, this, this. Yep. Within the first five minutes. And every, they used to be like, you're crazy. And then now after working with me for seven years, they're like, this is fucking insane.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  It's a superpower.

• 42:04Bunnie XO?

  People like that.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a superpower. It's, it's hyper empathy. And it can almost be dysfunctional empathy because you feel it in yourself. You'll feel it in your own body. Like you can read someone's face and you're like, I know what's going on with them. Like, I'm not gonna talk, like, better stay back, right? Or, okay, this person is inviting, right? Safe. Um, so yeah. And that hypervigilance, it's a big downfall in the relationship. Because.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Maybe your spouse says something to you and it's really benign. They didn't mean anything by it. It's very neutral, but your filter hears it as rude. Right? And so you're like, why did you say, like, why are you being rude? And they're like, I'm not, what are you talking about?

• 42:47Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Right? And it can start a fight. Um, so the filter isn't always necessarily perfectly accurate, but it's pretty good because a lot of times, maybe they didn't mean it to be rude, but there was a little element, tiny element of emotion, of frustration that was behind what they just said, and maybe had nothing to do with you.

• 43:06Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  But you could, the fearful avoidant can pick up on it.

• 43:09Bunnie XO?

  Oh, anytime my husband says, we need to have a talk or like, let's get together. Let's have a, Mimi's laughing. Uh, let's get together with, let's, my husband, like, has to make it a big to do to have conversations in our household. And so he'll be like, let's go take a drive and have a conversation. And I'm like, are we good? Like, what is wrong here? You need to know immediately. What do we need to talk about? I thought everything was great, you know? So, yeah.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:31Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the fearful avoidant, um, they're, they have what we call high trait variability, meaning that they just all kind of look a little different. The analogy I like to give is, you know, an anxious preoccupied, a dismissive avoidant, they have low trait variability, so I can spot them. It's like they go to DA University and get their degree in dismissive avoidance. They just all look the same.

• 43:51Bunnie XO?

  It's like narcissists.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:53Bunnie XO?

  They all have the same fucking handbook that they talk out of.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  The same playbook. And I think page one is raise your right hand and call your partner a narcissist.

• 44:00Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Right? That's, that's step one in the narcissism handbook is like accuse your partner of being the narcissist.

• 44:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Oh, gaslighting from day one, always. And we're going to get into narcissist too, because I feel like narcissist, calling people a narcissist is so overused now. Like, everyone's like, you're a narcissist, you're this. Like, even if you just like post something that you're happy about, you're a narcissist. It's just like, what the hell?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Bunnie XO?

  So, back to the attachment styles. Can two of the same attachment style be in a relationship together?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  They can, but it's usually a little bit of a shit show.

• 44:32Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Um, so like for fearful avoidance, where they have anxiety and avoidance in their attachment style.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  They, they will always act in opposition to their partner, which really makes it hard for them. So if, if a fearful avoidant is with a dismissive avoidant, they will be very anxious. So they'll swing over to their anxious side because their partner's avoidant.

• 44:54Bunnie XO?

  So they can flip flop.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  They can flip flop.

• 44:55Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  They can really flip flop. They can flip flop in one dang conversation.

• 44:59Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Right? And if you have two FAs together, which I think the two FA relationship, if I had to pick a relationship, I would pick that one because it's, I feel like the most easily fixed.

• 45:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, that's me and my husband.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:13Bunnie XO?

  We're both fearful avoidants.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Right. And so, so when you have two FAs together, one is always going to lean a little more avoidant. One is always going to lean a little more anxious, but it can, it can flip flop.

• 45:23Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  It can flip flop at any time, right? And I know even with my husband, we have like tinges of our attachment that are still there. And it's like,

• 45:29Bunnie XO?

  What's his attachment style?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  He's FA too.

• 45:32Bunnie XO?

  Oh, yeah. Okay.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I would, I would say we've done a lot of work, right? But still, we're, we are hyper vigilant towards each other.

• 45:38Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  We can pick up on each other's emotions so insanely quickly.

• 45:42Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  We, um, if he starts getting quiet, I'm, I'm like, are you okay? Right? Everything all right? If I get quiet, he's like, are you okay?

• 45:49Bunnie XO?

  I had, I had to learn that. My husband and I went, I don't know how much of our story you know too, but he ended up having an affair. And 2017 for like a year, we found out about it. I mean, just shit, it was a shit show. But in the end, we came back together and you know, we did the work and we have started to heal together since, you know, 2018 and just learning each other's love languages and like just knowing that reassurance goes such a long way to like, with our attachment styles and stuff like that. So, yeah.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  How did you handle that? How did you recover? Like what was key in your recovery?

• 46:24Bunnie XO?

  Oh, it took about two years. And I tell everybody this. I'm like, when you go through such bad heartbreak like that and betrayal, it is probably, and you know, when there's other people involved too, it wasn't just my husband. It was like his friends around. Everybody knew except for me.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:40Bunnie XO?

  But I did know, and he tried to gaslight me the whole time. Uh, this is in my book, so everybody's going to get to read about it. And I, I talk about it on the podcast very often, but I've never gone into detail. About it. Um, but the way that I healed was I started doing a ton of research, just like you. And I wanted to understand my emotions and I wanted to understand how I could get through this without resenting him.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:01Bunnie XO?

  And without always throwing it up in his face.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:04Bunnie XO?

  And a lot of therapy, a lot of counseling, a lot of having to look within. Because I wasn't perfect. And you know, obviously I was doing something also that contributed to you feeling like you needed to step outside of the marriage. And I had come from a severely abusive relationship. So I de-ma- I de-masculinized him, or what's the exact word to say, de-masculinized?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:25Bunnie XO?

  I can't say it. I, you know, and I was very, my walls were high and I was very just like, it's my way or no way. And very like, I'm gonna leave right now at the drop of a dime.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Very FA.

• 47:35Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Really very FA, yeah.

• 47:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. And I mean, what man wants to fucking deal with that all the time?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  That was me in my first relationship too. And you know, I, I understand exactly what you're talking about.

• 47:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. So it's just a lot of work, a lot of healing, a lot of feeling. You had to allow yourself to feel those things. And when I would come to him and be upset about things, you know, he didn't know how to deal with it either. Now we know that we should have sat down and talked about it, but it was a lot of knock down, drag out fights, but we got through it. And you know, we're here to, to be a testament of.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  That is a great testament.

• 48:05Bunnie XO?

  You can get through it. You don't have to get through it. Everybody always gets mad when I say that. You don't have to stay with a man who cheats on you. Okay?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's a personal choice.

• 48:13Bunnie XO?

  It's a personal choice. And I believe everybody deserves a second chance. You know, like not a third, not a fourth.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:19Bunnie XO?

  But you do, you do deserve to show that you've changed.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And so that's amazing that you did that. You guys did that work together and seems like you've come out stronger on the other side.

• 48:29Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Yeah. He's my, that is my fucking buddy, dude. Like I love him so much. So, okay. All these attachment, uh, all these attachment styles that you, you speak about. And you know, being just this amazing, smart woman that you are, do you believe in soulmates?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  I, I do. I do. I think that there are certain relationships that are blessed by God, that, that God puts together. And I believe that in my own marriage. I mean, our journey is.

• 48:58Bunnie XO?

  What is it like being married to you? It's gotta be crazy because it's like, when you do something, she's gotta be like, well, that's so and such and such and such and such. Does she analyze you at home?

• 49:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. He's like, I don't want to talk to you.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  He's like, we're always working on me.

• 49:18Bunnie XO?

  I love that, but you guys are learning how to work together.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  We are, and I mean, he's an amazing man.

• 49:25Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I have to give him credit because the amount of emotional maturity that he brings to our relationship is pretty profound. You know, I've never come in contact with a man that understood himself and other people as much as, as he does. And some of that is being the fearful avoidant because we're again, look, always looking at people like subconsciously studying people, right? So people that are fearful avoidant usually have higher emotional intelligence. It doesn't mean they can act on it because again, their nervous systems from their childhood trauma tend to be very dysregulated. So fearful avoidance will, may react poorly, may react with a lot of anger. They can be reactive people or they can be people who can like put their walls up really quick.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  But also to fearful avoidance, so like you and your husband and me and my husband, I call it the best friends, potentially mortal enemies dynamic. Where it's like, you can develop this really deep best friendship.

• 50:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Cause the deepest need of the FA is to be seen, heard and understood.

• 50:23Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  So you share that need, right? So you can really lean into each other and have this really intimate best friend relationship. But if you can get the fighting under control, if you can learn how to navigate conflict.

• 50:34Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Then you'll have a great relationship.

• 50:36Bunnie XO?

  Yes, we are a testament to that.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yes. So it's learning for the two FAs, it's learning how to navigate conflict.

• 50:41Bunnie XO?

  We never fight now, like we, like, and when we do, it's like once a year and it's like, we have one little blow up and that's it. But like, whereas before in the first three years of our relationship, it was like fucking world war three.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  And, and FAs can be kind of toxic fighters sometimes. They can low blow, they can be like, F you buddy, right? Like, um, I'll slam the door right in your face.

• 51:02Bunnie XO?

  You go low, I'm going to hell.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, exactly. Like I will punch you so hard below the belt. And so if you can get conflict under control, the two FA relationship is, is the best relationship, I think. Um, obviously the goal is to, for everybody to be more secure, right? And that's what the work does because you have to look within yourself and you have to do the work to self reflect and take accountability for your own crap. To become secure. And so we've really, we've really done that. We've had very difficult relationships in our past that taught us a lot and put us on our healing journeys and we met each other. Just at the time where we had both kind of taken a year to isolate ourselves and do the healing work and get into a good place. And, and so I do believe in soulmates because

• 51:48Speaker 01

  I'm married to my soulmate.

• 51:49Bunnie XO?

  Ah, I love that so much. She's over there beaming ear to ear. So, okay, let's get into narcissists.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:57Bunnie XO?

  Because I feel like it, especially on TikTok.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Bunnie XO?

  Everybody's talking about narcissists and dark empaths and all this stuff. So, what is a narcissist?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, a narcissist is someone who had enough childhood trauma that they sort of built a fake personality around, and that personality revolves around having power and control. Because, you know, somewhere along the line, there was too much feelings of powerlessness. And so they develop this, this persona, which they call the narcissistic mask, that revolves around trying to always have control. And so, and for narcissists, actually, on my, my own podcast, we interviewed somebody from TikTok. His name was the Nameless Narcissist, um, who is a self-aware narcissist who's been through

• 52:50Speaker 01

  the healing process, which is like 1%. I mean, like 99% of narcissistic people, like true NPD people.

• 52:55Bunnie XO?

  They don't think they have any, they think they don't have anything wrong with them.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because everybody else is always the problem, right? It's like, I'm not the problem. You're the problem. Um, and he actually had a really great insight, which is it's not about actually getting other people to do what you want. It's about knowing that you can get them to do what you want. It's about knowing that you do have the power is what, is what fuels it. And so a lot of narcissistic people report having deep feelings of inner emptiness. And the external validation that they get from other people and the ability to control other people sort of momentarily fills those voids. And so, attachment is at the level of behavior. Like, it's basically a set of habits, right, from a set of beliefs. And so you can

• 53:41Speaker 01

  change your beliefs and you can change your behavior. Behavior is flexible. You know, if we learn to work with our nervous systems, we can learn to, to act more intentionally instead of have those trauma responses that are the basis of attachment. But for narcissism, it, it climbs up the ladder of stability to be ingrained in one's personality. So, personality is much more stable. Then just behavior, you know, it's whereas attachment really shows up more so in the romantic relationship. I always say you're gonna find that the narcissist has problems like everywhere in their life.

• 54:18Bunnie XO?

  Everywhere.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Right, everywhere. They can't stand authority. They're gonna have problems with their boss.

• 54:22Bunnie XO?

  Can't have friendships.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  They can't really have great friendships unless they have friends that just are like their own little narcissist. Yeah, or just, you know, in awe of them, right? That they feel like that person is grandiose and they're attracted to that, but narcissists, they're gonna have a problem with their kid's soccer coach. They're gonna have a problem with the pastor at church. They're, you know, they're always gonna feel like they have to be one up. And that dysfunction, it just bleeds over into everything in their life. And so just because someone was crappy inside of your romantic relationship, does not mean that they're a narcissist.

• 54:55Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Right? It doesn't mean they're pathological and narcissism is also on a spectrum. So people can have some narc traits, but it doesn't mean they have NPD or narcissistic personality disorder, which is an actual disorder.

• 55:07Bunnie XO?

  So how would you be diagnosed with NPD?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I can't, I don't do any diagnoses. I'm in the coaching world. I'm in social psychology, but I did run a clinical psychology training program and I've worked alongside clinical psychologists pretty much my entire career. And they use what's called the DSM, which is like the bible for psychological disorders. And the DSM has certain notable criteria that you have to meet, like I think it's like five of the eight criteria. So a lot of it is around like grandiose behavior, thinking that you're more important than other people, um, being obsessed with unlimited power, unlimited love or unlimited money, you know, um, it can be, you know, lacking empathy. So there's lots of these characteristics and I think the hallmark characteristic of narcissism is just

• 55:56Speaker 01

  they have low empathy. They have an inability to truly place themselves in other individuals shoes and think, well, what would it be like to be them and how do my actions affect or hurt them? Right? It's all about can they stay in control of the situation. And so they will escalate and escalate and escalate as much as they need to in order to truly have control over someone else because that's the only thing that they can tolerate. I can't tolerate feeling powerless.

• 56:23Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, that puts so much into perspective for me because you know, you have an idea of what a narcissist is, but to actually hear, you put it so beautifully and it's like, okay, this makes 100% sense.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:33Bunnie XO?

  So for listeners at home who are like, oh, he's gaslighting me or don't gaslight me. What exactly does gaslighting mean?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yes, gaslighting is when someone is truly trying to deprive you of your reality. So, and gaslighting, a lot of people think they're being gaslit when really what's actually happening is two people can experience the same situation together. And because they're different people with different brains and different filters, they might not come out of that experience with the same perspective or the same feelings. And especially for fearful avoidance, who have this deep need to be seen, heard and understood, almost to the point where they need people to like completely agree with their perspective. If someone comes in like in a conflict and says, well, I don't agree with that, or that's not how I experienced it, or you're wrong, that didn't happen.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Maybe for them, it didn't happen because they weren't attending to the same part of the experience. And so, gaslighting really only happens when the reality is really objective and you're trying to say it didn't happen. Like, my ex would gaslight me because I found the messages of his, one of his many affairs. And in this message, there was lots of talk about the fact that it was an ongoing, long-term sexual affair. And then, so he thought because he could delete that message, that he could then convince me that that's not what I read.

• 57:58Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Right, that that's not what I read, I was just upset when I read it and I misconstrued it and that's not what was happening, that was gaslighting, right? It's like, I read that you guys were in a relationship, right? And she was saying, you know, maybe you should just, you know, focus on your wife and maybe we should stop this relationship. Like, it actually talked about being in a relationship. And then he gaslit me and said, there is no relationship. That wasn't what was said, you misconstrued it. So that's gaslighting, right?

• 58:27Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Versus maybe in an argument, someone says something and it...

• 58:33Speaker 01

  It was like, you're being so rude. And they're like, no, I'm just trying to tell you how I feel. And they're like, no, you're trying to hurt me. You're gaslighting me. You were definitely trying to hurt me. Right? So maybe the intention and perception wasn't the same between two people, but that doesn't mean that they were being gaslit.

• 58:49Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  That's humanity. That's just two humans filtering things from a different perspective.

• 58:54Bunnie XO?

  Yes, I feel like so many people use that term so loosely now. So just to hear how you put that was just, it was church tabernacle, church choir tabernacle. Loved it. Okay. So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Oh, wait, I wanted to hear your take. You have a, an, um, a pretty cool take on the Selena Gomez and Justin Bieber situation.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I do.

• 59:14Bunnie XO?

  Can we talk about that?

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Let's please.

• 59:15Bunnie XO?

  I kind of like the way that you worded it.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:18Bunnie XO?

  And I normally don't like to get into celebrities' relationships because I don't like when people publicly fodder me and my husbands. But I really liked your take on it. So can we hear?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  So I'm a fan of both as artists. Um, my oldest daughter was a huge Justin Bieber fan when she was growing up. She was a believer. So, um, we played a lot of Justin Bieber, you know, when she was seven, eight, nine. Um, and he was kind of growing up too. And Justin Bieber, if you look at his life, I mean, he has a ton of attachment trauma. You know, his mom had him when he was young. I know there were issues between his parents. I can only imagine what growing up as a celebrity might be like. Of course, it's just alleged, it's rumors and Justin hasn't confirmed anything, but he's been linked to the Diddy stuff, right? Which the mass amount of trauma that could potentially be associated with that, I can't even really wrap my head around.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  And so.

• 1:00:15Bunnie XO?

  And not just the Diddy thing. Who knows what else has happened to him?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Who knows?

• 1:00:19Bunnie XO?

  Growing up as such a young, you know, child in Hollywood.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I have a 14 year old daughter and you have teenage daughter. So you know how potentially influenced they are. And their brains aren't developed yet and they're looking to adults to help them navigate the world and how safe were the adults around him? Probably not pretty safe. Right? Probably exploiting him.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  I mean, that song Lonely will just break your freaking heart.

• 1:00:43Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Right? And the video of him being like this little boy and that it just tear, it'll tear you up. So you can only imagine the type of relational trauma as well as attachment, familial attachment trauma that he had.

• 1:00:54Bunnie XO?

  I feel like he's like the male Britney Spears.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:00:57Bunnie XO?

  He just hasn't gone off the cliff yet.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, gosh, poor Britney, right? That's a whole nother conversation, but um.

• 1:01:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  But yeah, Justin, he's enormously talented artist, enormously just popular person, right? I mean, his concerts were like crazy. I mean, people climbing on the stage to just try to like touch his garment, right? I mean, that's how idolized he was.

• 1:01:21Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  And I don't know what that level of fame is like, but what I can, what I can see in sort of his latest crash outs is just someone who is so beaten down psychologically and he is so longing for some peace. I just think that as a human behavior specialist, that looks very obvious. I think him and Selena were trying to navigate this romantic relationship as, as really as kids, as teenagers.

• 1:01:46Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  And it was off and on, off and on, off and on, off and on. I'm sure it was toxic. I know that, you know, of course, there was alleged cheating rumors and they were always on again, off again, on again, off again, and in the public eye. And your early romantic experiences do shape you. You know, they are part of your attachment. I mean, your parental relationships are the most influential, but your early relationships, like teenage relationships are really impactful.

• 1:02:09Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  And so of course, there's so much pain associated with that. So much of it is in the public eye. I was really surprised that like Selena and Benny Blanco ended up together because Benny was such a big part of Justin's music. I mean, you know, so many hits, right? There, there, he was associated with that. So I can only imagine that if he's an FA, their biggest wound is betrayal. The person that he claimed was the love of his life for so long, who was probably through, with him, like his ride or die through all of this pain, but also helped. Shape his early romantic experiences, then goes and marries someone who he was really close with.

• 1:02:49Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  I can only imagine that although he is married and quote unquote moved on, that that is not extremely painful. It has to be painful.

• 1:02:57Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Right? Cause it feels from both people like it was a betrayal, which is the biggest attachment wound.

• 1:03:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  So it's like, take a knife, stab it in your biggest wound and twist it around. Right? And then you have this, and it's, it's a mystery because a lot, I mean, you're married to a very successful music artist. And so they're not, they don't always reveal what every song is about and what every lyric is about, right? That's not part of what they do. They don't have to do that, right? But their music is just part of their fingerprint and their signature. And there are probably pieces of your life interwoven and in your music here and there. But on this album, you know, Selena in the, in the song, how does it feel to be forgotten? First of all, that song's a banger. It's great.

• 1:03:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  It's frigging awesome.

• 1:03:41Bunnie XO?

  Her music always slaps.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  The vocal talent of Selena Gomez.

• 1:03:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  I don't think, I think has been, always been underappreciated.

• 1:03:48Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Her vocal talent is out of this world and as an artist.

• 1:03:51Bunnie XO?

  Her star overshadows her music capabilities. Like just her, she's such a star in her own right, that the music just comes second to her.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  For sure. Yeah. And, and she's beautiful. Oh my gosh, she's stunning.

• 1:04:03Bunnie XO?

  She's gorgeous.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Stunning.

• 1:04:04Bunnie XO?

  It's like a little precious moment stall.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yes. And so you hear the words of that song and it's like, how does it feel to be forgotten? And just like this whole like, oh, you're so embarrassing. Like go cry where some, where no one's watching. Right? And so we don't know, is she talking about Justin? Right? Is, and him crashing out and just like, I am over you and you're embarrassing yourself and you need to get your life together? And is there this animosity and resentment because hey, you put me through so much pain? And now I'm in this, you know, relationship where I'm happy and you're over here crying, right? Like in the public eye, like on Instagram, crashing out. Um, or there's rumors that this was something that Hailey Bieber said to her.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  You know, how does it feel to be forgotten? He loves me now. So we don't know. I mean, nobody's commenting on it, right? Nobody's like clearing the air. So we don't know. But what I guess my message was, was this is pain.

• 1:05:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  This is what pain sounds like. Right? And although it can be filtered through music and that can be a beautiful outlet. There, there's probably elements where they still need to do some healing work.

• 1:05:15Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Because their experiences of their early romantic relationship was so painful. I can only imagine how that has influenced the way that they look at the world and relationships right now. And I know Selena's, you know, she's been vocal about doing work. I think Justin's been very vocal about his faith and what faith has done for him. And I so, we saw such a beautiful, bright side of Justin when he was diving into his faith.

• 1:05:42Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  But it seems like maybe that's tapered off a little bit. I, I wish them both the best. They're mega talented. I hope that they find peace and happiness.

• 1:05:52Bunnie XO?

  I feel sorry for all three of them.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:05:55Bunnie XO?

  I feel sorry for Selena because of all the shit she has to be dragged through and just like, she can't even love somebody with people speculating why she loves them.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:04Bunnie XO?

  And then, you know, poor Justin is just always gonna be eternally linked to her because, you know, the internet doesn't let anybody ever forget anything.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 1:06:12Bunnie XO?

  And then Haley is just not allowed to be a, a brand new mother and a wife and, without being called a stalker. And, you know, it's just, it's crazy to me.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  The docu-series was crazy.

• 1:06:24Bunnie XO?

  I didn't watch it. I didn't watch it because I, you know, I just know.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I can only imagine that it's hard because you're like, I'm a celebrity dude. I don't want people like making these narratives about me.

• 1:06:34Bunnie XO?

  I don't consider myself a celebrity. I appreciate that, but I, I love you. I love you. I, but I just, that's how I feel is like, I just don't ever want to feed into something that is all lies. Because it's like, do we really know? Or did they have facts?

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  With AI, you don't know. You don't know.

• 1:06:53Bunnie XO?

  I literally do wedded a video today of AI of my voice saying that my husband gives me $80,000 a month for an allowance. And like, it's crazy.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Right. So I'm just like, if it's not AI.

• 1:07:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  That shit is crazy.

• 1:07:05Bunnie XO?

  Okay, maybe we'll have to watch it.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I thought it was just gonna be like, well, she followed him around a little bit. She was a fan.

• 1:07:13Speaker 05

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• 1:07:58Speaker 05

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• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Like I said, maybe it's AI. So I will always say allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Because, you know, if Haley ever listens to this, girl, I don't want to throw you under the bus. Because if that stuff is AI, then shame on that person that made that.

• 1:08:27Bunnie XO?

  I just wish somebody would speak up, you know?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Right, clear it up.

• 1:08:31Bunnie XO?

  Just clear the air one fucking time.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Because she even got the exact same tattoo behind her ear as Selena. The exact same tattoo.

• 1:08:38Bunnie XO?

  See, I don't know all the lore, because I try to remember.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  There's a lot of lore, right? And so, I try not to be a gossiper. I don't really like gossip. But it's hard, because I'm also a human behavior specialist.

• 1:08:48Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, and you want to watch.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  My whole career is focused on why do people do what they do?

• 1:08:54Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Right? And so, I'm just like watching this, and I'm like, what was going on in their childhood? What was their romantic relationship like? It's hard to separate yourself.

• 1:09:03Bunnie XO?

  It's on TikTok, right?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:09:05Bunnie XO?

  Okay, so I'm gonna have to watch it.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  But I watched it on YouTube.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  But again, they're just, the Biebs is someone who, my daughter was so obsessed with him. I mean, I remember we took her to LA. I have two really good friends that live out in LA from college and we went and visited them when my daughter was like four or five years old. And all she asked the whole way there was, "Do you think we'll see Justin Bieber? Can we see Justin Bieber's house? Can we drive by?" And we're like, "Baby, they don't share where they live." Right? There's a big city. I don't think we're gonna see Justin Bieber." But man, she had her, she was like crossing her fingers that we were gonna meet Justin Bieber. And she probably will kill me for now saying that on this podcast.

• 1:09:41Bunnie XO?

  I love that though. I think that's so cute. The innocence is just so cute.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  It was so precious. It was.

• 1:09:45Bunnie XO?

  All right, so I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions, just some hot, like some hot take, rapid fire questions. Why do you feel that people stay in unhappy marriages?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Because they're too afraid of the pain of detachment.

• 1:09:59Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  We're always, all humans are running from emotional pain. Nobody wants to process emotional pain. And one of the things that I do with people is actually teach them how to properly go through emotional processing cycles where the brain actually says, "Okay, you took the message from the emotion, therefore the emotional energy can kind of leave." Like you have actually processed this through. You've integrated it into the psyche.

• 1:10:23Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  But where, we call them feelings because they're felt, they're actually physically painful in the body. They're uncomfortable. Nobody wants to sit in that discomfort. And we get twinges of it, we get moments of it. And so we either try to Band-Aid it, or we try to suppress it. And so when people are weighing what they will have to face, which is the pain of detachment, sort of like the devil you don't know versus devil you do know in your marriage, they don't wanna face that. And then there's other things too. I mean, of course, people have kids or finances to navigate. Some people are just afraid they can't afford to get divorced. They're terrified of the impact it will have on the children. Although if you dive into the research, the research really confirms

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  that it's way more about how the divorce is handled than if there is a divorce.

• 1:11:10Bunnie XO?

  And I feel like staying together in a miserable relationship is the worst example you wanna set for your kids. Because they can sense that you're not happy.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so much, so attachment is formed not just by how your parents interact with you, but what you witness in your parents' romantic dynamic. So that's modeling. And modeling is a huge way that children learn, just by watching and observing. And so- What are you teaching your kids in your own relationship? Are you teaching them that love is painful? Are you teaching them that love means neglect? Are you teaching them that love is chaotic and unstable? You know, what are you modeling to them in your own romantic relationship? And especially for me, there came a point where I wanted my two daughters to know there was a point where mom wasn't going to take that anymore. Like mom wasn't going to take being cheated on. Mom wasn't going to take being emotionally and verbally abused all the time. You know, I don't want them to be in those relationships when they grow up.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  So I didn't want their mom to be the example that that's what you should have to settle for. Right. And I'm, I will try to save a marriage if I can save a marriage, of course I will, especially if two people want it. But I'm also, as a coach, really blatantly honest with people. Like this probably isn't salvageable and trying to do so is creating more pain. And you would be better off divorced. There are couples that, that I have to come to that conclusion with because

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  people have limitations to their capacity. Hmm. And, and sometimes people just don't have the capacity to be different. It would take so much deep work to gain capacity to be a secure or healthy romantic partner. You'd be waiting years. Yeah. And it would still be a question mark, right? If they were going to get to the end of the road there. And so it's better, it's better for your kids to see two healthy co-parents that can each, on an individual basis, give that child love and attention and attunement. Then where that attunement and attention and affection is taken from the kids because they're so consumed with a dysfunction. That was me in my first marriage. Yeah.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  And I have, I do, I still struggle. I mean, my husband could tell you, I still struggle with so much guilt, especially with my oldest child. Cause she saw so many bad things. And then one of the reasons I didn't leave was because my husband was an addict. And I was like, he'll die.

• 1:13:32Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  I can, I can hold him up. I can hold the bar up, right? Because when I met him, he partied with OxyContin. And then I, I had a boundary around that. I was like, no, that's, that's not cool with me.

• 1:13:44Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  So then he became an alcoholic. He just replaced pain pills with alcoholism. And I didn't see that really coming. And so then I was married to a very, very severe alcoholic. Um, when we divorced, he tried to go to rehab and that he started drinking the day he got out.

• 1:14:03Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Um, he couldn't even, from what I understood, he couldn't even make it. I was not married to him, but this was from his new wife. He couldn't make it through the night without having a drink. So he'd have to get up and go and drink vodka in the middle of the night. That was how physically addicted he was to alcohol. And then, you know, one of the fears that I had, and I, I would tell my mom this so many times, is if I leave, what if he dies? Then what? And he did.

• 1:14:26Bunnie XO?

  How does somebody who's in that same situation right now navigate that? Because there's, I, there's, you know, I've had a few girlfriends who are like, well, that he's threatened to kill himself if I leave. Or he's an addict. I'm afraid that he's gonna overdose if I leave.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Bunnie XO?

  How, what would be your advice to anybody, male or female, in a relationship like that?

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, my advice is to understand that you are not responsible for someone else's dysfunction. And that you cannot be the punching bag so that someone else doesn't make a drastic decision. That decision was his. The decision to do OxyContin and drink alcohol and use OxyContin in a very dangerous way, that was his decision. And yes, maybe it came from pain and maybe some of that pain was from the divorce, but I am still not responsible for that. You know, he's, he was responsible for himself. And I had, I mean, that was part of my, I mean, I sort of had a mental breakdown too, after he died and that's part of my story, but I had immense guilt and immense shame.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  But through my healing journey, I recognized I couldn't hold him up. I was never gonna be able to hold him up. And my girls deserved at least one healthy parent. They deserved one strong parent.

• 1:15:41Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  And so you cannot sacrifice yourself be, because you're afraid that someone is gonna give into their dysfunction.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  You can't make someone well. We don't have that kind of control over people.

• 1:15:56Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  But you can make yourself well. And a lot of times separating from that dysfunctional person is the only shot in hell you have of making yourself okay.

• 1:16:05Bunnie XO?

  Wow, that's so deep and it's but it's so real. I could literally sit here and listen to you talk all day. I you're a lucky guy because I could sit here and just listen to her talk all day.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  You know what he does with my videos? He always tries to like listen for the appropriate amount of seconds that it that it counts as a view and give it a like and then he because he hears it.

• 1:16:25Bunnie XO?

  We love a supportive husband, though.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  We do.

• 1:16:28Bunnie XO?

  Come on.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Fifteen seconds, that counts, right? That counts as a view. Okay, we're good.

• 1:16:32Bunnie XO?

  I think all husbands are like that. My husband does the same thing with mine. And I'll be like, you didn't even like it, you know?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I bet he's your biggest cheerleader, though.

• 1:16:39Bunnie XO?

  He is. And we actually are each other's biggest cheerleader.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I can imagine.

• 1:16:43Bunnie XO?

  We are just, that's my, I don't, like, last night was the sweetest thing. We were on the phone and we hung up. And after we hung up the phone, he texts me, he's like, I love our late night talks. I love your voice. I love your laugh. And I was just like, that is the sweetest thing. And like, we're 10 years in.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Bunnie XO?

  And I was like, you know what? We're fucking crushing this shit.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah, you are. Hell, yeah.

• 1:16:59Bunnie XO?

  I love him.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Your relationship has already stood a test.

• 1:17:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  A big test.

• 1:17:03Bunnie XO?

  Oh, a bunch, yeah.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Right? And if you can come to that level of intimacy and just friendship, after having trials and tribulations like that, y'all are gonna you're gonna make it to the end.

• 1:17:11Bunnie XO?

  He's my safe space. You know, like, we've been through a lot, but I there's no better feeling than feeling safe with somebody.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:17Bunnie XO?

  And because of all my trauma, I used to search for that passion. I wanted that intense sexual relationship. I wanted, you know, the the fucking fighting and like.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  If it's not toxic, it's not love. That's the FA blueprint. It is. If it's not, if it's not fire, if it's not killing you, right, then it's not love.

• 1:17:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  And when you become secure and you do the work like you've done, I mean, you've had, you said, I had to do the deep work, right?

• 1:17:42Bunnie XO?

  Lots, yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Lots of deep work and you had to confront those demons. You come out with like, I now appreciate safety.

• 1:17:49Bunnie XO?

  So much.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  I want the peace. I want the security. I want the reliability. I don't want it to be fire and, and brimstone, right? I want it to be just floating on a cloud. Just put me on the cloud, right? I just put me lay on the pillow and, and breathe deeply.

• 1:18:04Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, no, he's the best human. And I'm happy that you have found that too, after, you know, everything that you've been through. So we're gonna close this out with one more final question, because we have lots of people who listen to this show that are in the dating scene. What can you tell them are three green flags to look for in a new partner and three red flags to avoid?

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Three green flags. First and foremost, it has to be authenticity. Like, if you get a vibe that someone is putting a mask on or putting a persona on, get, get the heck out of there. Because authenticity is the most regulating thing to the human nervous system. And if somebody, you know, is only, feels like they can be liked when they take on this image or persona, you're never, you know, when you do see the real them, it's probably not gonna work out, right? Because that's not the person you fell in love with. So strive for authenticity within yourself, for sure, but also kind of do the vibe check there. Are you getting someone who seems to be deeply comfortable in who they are as their real self, right? And they're not trying to, to show off or trying to put a mask on.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Um, I would say green flag for sure is reliability and consistency. So, secure people are very consistent. Like, my husband is the same today as he was on our first date. In terms of consistency.

• 1:19:21Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Um, and then I, for sure, I mean, honesty.

• 1:19:26Bunnie XO?

  Consistency with like, just how they show up?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Communication, how they show up, you know, um, he didn't put on this front where he tried to love bomb me. He was just very consistent in how he showed up in terms of like, caring for me and making sure I was okay. And he's always leaning into, are you okay, right? Like, what can I do and how can I make sure you're okay? He's very much a protector. And, but that's never dropped off, right? And he never... He never played any games. There was no game playing, right? I think in today's culture, it's like, who can care the least? And who can match the energy? And all of that's bull crap. And we don't want to do any of that. We want to show up and we want to be who we are.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  And we want that energy to be exuding from us of authenticity. But consistency in communication, consistency in how people show up. If you feel a drop off, right? Where you feel like someone's energy is really pulled back, really shifted. That's a real big sign of attachment avoidance, probably dismissive avoidance. So you're gonna want to just kind of cut that off. It does not get better. It gets worse over time.

• 1:20:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Also, I think a red flag is how do they talk about other people in their past? How do they talk about their exes?

• 1:20:41Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:20:42Bunnie XO?

  Huge.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 1:20:44Bunnie XO?

  Red flag. If they're all crazy.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Every ex is crazy. A key question I always tell my clients that are starting to emerge as secure and ready to be in the dating spaces. Ask people how they got over their last relationship. Like, what did you do to get over your last long-term relationship?

• 1:20:59Bunnie XO?

  What a great question.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Right? And so you will see the attachment styles. You will, and you will see narcissism, right? Like a dismissive avoidant person is gonna have no idea how they got over it. Cause they suppressed all their feelings. They just moved forward. They'll just say, well, you know, I don't know. I just, it is what it is. Like, it just didn't work out. It just, I just had to. That's usually the DA answer. So run from that. Um, if they're like, my ex was awful. They were so crazy. You might be looking at fearful avoidance, or you might be looking at narcissism. You don't know. But either way, a secure person is gonna say, well, you know, the relationship, it, it didn't work out. There were some things that weren't so good. I'm committed to growing on my own. To, you know, I had to look at myself and take accountability for how I showed up.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  And I, and that was part of my personal growth journey, right? Secure people are gonna talk about the fact that they care about their character development. They care about their personal growth and development. Whereas insecure people are gonna point the finger, or they're not gonna have any insight into what they brought to the table.

• 1:22:02Bunnie XO?

  Yep.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  So those are all red flags. Green flags for sure would be. Um, someone who is able to take criticism. So you look at how the first conflict happens. Yeah. Right. Is somebody able to be introspective about the feedback that you give them? Of, hey, this didn't feel good to me, or, hey, you know, I would really like for this to happen. This is what I need in a relationship, you know, can you give that to me? If they get super defensive right off the bat, if they start blame shifting stuff back on to you or projecting back on to you, no, that's not going to get any better. It's not going to get any better. It's just going to get worse, right? Mm hmm. If you end up in a puddle on the floor after your first conflict, just know you are in for it.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Right? Because people are usually trying to put their best foot forward in the early stages. Right. Right? So look at how, look at how they take criticism and if they can take it kind of graciously and say, okay, well, tell me a little bit more about that, right? I'm not sure I understand. And they're inquisitive. Or they're like, okay, I can see why maybe, you know, I impacted you in that way and that didn't feel good to you and I, and I don't want to make you feel that way. Yeah. Right? So they have empathy. Mm hmm. Um, I would say a, a, a green flag is someone who is interdependent, not codependent or hyper independent. So, you know, workaholism is a red flag. So somebody who can have a good work-life balance or a good familial balance,

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  you know, with, if they have kids or with their family of origin, right? They're willing to, to have a, a really secure relationship with those folks, but they can step outside of that relationship and prioritize you appropriately. Yes. Right? Mm hmm. Um, so they can make, make enough time for you. They add an appropriate amount of time. They start to integrate you into their life. Mm hmm. Right? I mean, with a dismissive avoidant, I hear people who have been dating DAs for eight, nine, 10 months, and they've never met their kids. And it's like, you're 10 months in and you've never met the kids, right? I can see waiting six months. Sure. But you're almost a year in and you've never seen these kids before? When are you gonna be somewhat integrated, right?

• 1:24:16Bunnie XO?

  When is time?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  When is it gonna be time? Um, and then for sure, honesty. Honesty and honesty is tough because, but you can't have authenticity without honesty. So I, you know, one of the things my, the co-host of my podcast is also my best friend. And one of the things we talk about how we love, what we love about each other's relationship and with our spouses and then our own relationship with each other is, is our honesty. Sometimes you have to tell people hard truths. You can't just blow smoke up their butt.

• 1:24:49Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  You know, you can't just go blow smoke because you want to get along. That's people pleasing, that's codependent.

• 1:24:55Bunnie XO?

  Passive aggressive.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  It can even be passive aggressive, absolutely. So can someone give you honest feedback about what they need or what they want? And can they do it in a loving and gentle way? Right? Instead of with anger behind it or

• 1:25:10Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  meanness or a low blow or a passive aggressive, you know, comment

• 1:25:16Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  behind it. Can they just come out and say, hey, this, this bothered me? Or this, this thing didn't feel good to me. I don't love when you said this and what, or what did you mean by that? Right? Look for people who can approach you with kindness and curiosity versus assumption and anger.

• 1:25:33Bunnie XO?

  Yep. But don't let your toxicity think that it's hot.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:37Bunnie XO?

  When people are doing all these red flags.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And attachment anxiety, it's a beast.

• 1:25:43Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Because it will make you cling to what you should let go of for sure. Because your nervous system is just in the state of, no, I need to, like for the anxious preoccupied, it's I need to prove that I'm good enough and that I won't be abandoned. For the fearful avoidant, when they're in their anxious side, it's I have to prove that I'm worth it. I have to prove, if you can change for me, that gives me worth. Right? So I'm going to keep trying to change you. So that then I feel valid on the inside. I feel like I have worth. I feel like I mean something. And stop trying to prove that you're worthy. You're inherently worthy. You're a human being that was made by God. You're inherently worthy. Right? You don't have to try to force someone to change so that you feel that.

• 1:26:22Bunnie XO?

  If somebody's meant for you, it's gonna happen. You don't have to force it. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:26:29Bunnie XO?

  Why don't you tell people where they can find you, like your TikTok, Instagram, website, podcast, all of it?

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Yes. So I have my own podcast called The Love Doc Podcast. We are on all major platforms. My TikTok, YouTube is Dr. Sarah Hensley. And my Facebook and Instagram are Dr. Sarah Hensley, Love Doc, The Love Doc. So I have a Facebook group too, that people can join where I give a lot of free advice. Please join.

• 1:26:56Bunnie XO?

  I will.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  It's called The Love Doc Clients and Community. It's an open Facebook group where that I moderate. So I answer people's questions. It's really hard for me to answer everybody's questions on social media because my inboxes are so full. I mean, I have a team that helps me, but we're a small team. And so that Facebook group is really a way to interact with me on a more personal level. And we give really great discounts on my services. So they can also visit me at my website, thelovedoc.com, which is where you'll find my coaching services. And yeah, that's where that's where you can find me. So I would love to connect with all your audience. I hope they come and check out my podcast.

• 1:27:32Bunnie XO?

  Oh, they will. We're all fucked up over here.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Hey, man.

• 1:27:35Bunnie XO?

  So we need you.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Nobody, nobody. There are very few not fucked up people out there, you know?

• 1:27:42Bunnie XO?

  I've gathered.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Join the club, right? It's all about learning how you're fucked up and trying to be better.

• 1:27:47Bunnie XO?

  I appreciate your energy is so beautiful.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Same to you. It was so easy to talk to you.

• 1:27:53Bunnie XO?

  Oh, I need you to come back. So you're gonna have to come back like once a year.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  I would absolutely.

• 1:27:57Bunnie XO?

  We'll make you the resident love doc.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  I would love that.

• 1:28:00Bunnie XO?

  Let's do it.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  That would be amazing. Thank you so much.

• 1:28:03Bunnie XO?

  It's a deal, baby. Thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode of Don Blonde. I'll see you guys next week. Bye.

• 1:28:12Bunnie XO?

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• 1:28:57Bunnie XO?

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