Rod Almighty!

Get your mind out of the gutter — this week it's Aaron's rod, the staff that sprouted buds, blossoms, and ripe almonds overnight to settle once and for all who was in charge. But the text is oddly insistent that it sat in FRONT of the ark rather than inside it, which raises a fascinating possibility: was this flowering stick in the holy of holies an Asherah pole that the priestly writers needed to explain away — and did Moses forfeit the promised land not for striking a rock, but for striking it with this pole? Then it's chapter and verse in 2 Maccabees 6, where a ninety-year-old scribe named Eliezer is offered a very easy out (bring your own meat, we'll all say it was pork) and chooses the rack instead. This, followed by a dying speech that is remarkably well-punctuated for a man having his bones broken. Support Data Over Dogma and get every episode early and ad-free, plus exclusive bonus content — become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma Get your Data Over Dogma merch at our online store: https://data-over-dogma-shop.fourthwall.com/ Watch every episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dataoverdogma Follow us: Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/dataoverdogmapod TikTok — https://www.tiktok.com/@data.over.dogma.pod Threads — https://www.threads.com/@dataoverdogmapod X — https://x.com/data_over_dogma Facebook — https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod Get Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book, The Bible Says So: https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/bible-says-so-9781250347466/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  Everybody's done terrible stuff. Like even Aaron created a divine image and told all of Israel to worship it. Aaron's fine. Like, Aaron's never threatened with death, but Moses slaps a rock with a stick and suddenly he's not allowed to enter the promised land. So, the book of Numbers is bonkers, is what we're trying to say here. Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

• 1:31Speaker 04

  And I'm Dan Beecher.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

• 1:44Speaker 04

  Things are great. I'm having a good time. We're living our best lives out here in the world. We got a good show coming up, and I'm stoked.

• 1:53Speaker 03

  And you've got a fancy new mitre on your shelf behind you.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  I do.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  Only slightly sacrilegious.

• 2:01Speaker 04

  I have a Pope's hat. I am assured it is not sacrilegious. This was blessed by many, not literally blessed, but blessed. The, yeah, anyway.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  It was condoned by many.

• 2:14Speaker 04

  Condoned by the church, apparently. And, yeah, given away to a baseball game. That was fun.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Um, today, coming up on the show, we got a couple of good ones. It's a humdinger, I think. We got a what's that, where we're going to be talking about Aaron's rod.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:37Speaker 04

  Keep your mind out of the gutter, everybody.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Not the 1974 movie. This is, this is different.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Don't ask.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  And we're gonna be, we're gonna be saying stuff about budding rods and stuff, so everybody just calm down. And then, in the latter half of the show, we'll be, we'll be returning to 2 Maccabees. We've, we've hung out there a few times, but we're gonna be getting, getting some, some chapter and verse action for 2 Maccabees, Chapter 6, where Eleazar is gonna show us how it's done.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Old man Eleazar.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. So that's gonna be some fun. But let's launch it off. Let's start it off with a what's that? Okay, so the what's that is, is Aaron's rod. Let, Aaron, let's remind ourselves a little bit. Aaron is the brother of Moses.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Brother of Moses. Moses's spokesperson.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  So when we have in Exodus 7, when God tells Moses, "I will make you a god to Pharaoh," goes on to say, "And Aaron will be your prophet." And so it's actually usually Aaron doing the talking.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  In a lot of the confrontations with Pharaoh.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  Because Moses was slow of speech, or had some sort of speech impediment, or something.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. So he was, he was mainly there to, Aaron would be like, "And now, behold," and Moses would probably step forward and slam his rod on the ground, and then frogs, or something like that. So.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  Or the, or the stick turns into snakes, or whatever.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. So.

• 4:14Speaker 04

  We have no way of knowing if this is the same rod that turned into a snake.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Probably a very different one. We're actually gonna be in the book of Numbers.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're, we're way outside of Exodus. We're.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  We're, we're all the way to Numbers, so.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we have this, there's controversy. And, and this, you know, if you've read the Pentateuch, you are familiar with the fact that the Israelites were always mumbling and grumbling.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  They were a mumbling, grumbling group.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, they were always challenging Moses's authority. And we have these dudes named Korah, and I forget the, the name of the other, Deithen and Abiram.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Are kind of like, hey, we wanna, we wanna, we wanna be in charge. And things didn't go great for them. We're, we'll discuss the Korah episode in another episode.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, we might, we might do that next, next week. We'll see, we'll see when we do that. But, but yeah, that is, that is a whole bunch of stuff. And I'm actually excited to talk to you about it, because, you know, this rebellion, as you say, all through the Exodus, there were all of these little like, "Ah, you, what gives you the right? Who are you?" And then, like, you know, everybody starts starving for a while, and then God comes and says.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, and the earth opens up and swallows a bunch of people. Or there's a plague that suddenly.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Kills 14,700 people. And then, you know, it's kind of like a sitcom, where you roll credits, and then you get the title sequence, and now we're back to, so anyway.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  So anyway.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Everybody was mumbling. And so in, in your English translation, this starts in Numbers 17:1. And oddly enough, though, if you are in your Hebrew Bible, then it's not 17:1. It's actually 17:16. Because.

• 6:12Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Yes. In the Hebrew, Chapter 17 of the book of Numbers begins at Numbers 16:36 in the English.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  So we have these, the whole plague story takes place.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Which we're, which we're not gonna do any more spoiling of.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  No, no more spoilage. Yes. So we get into Chapter 17 in the English, the latter part of Chapter 17 in the Hebrew. And the Lord is basically like, "Look, we've had enough of this. They're, they're challenging your authority, so we're gonna make it clear who has the authority. And we're going to," it's kind of like a reality show challenge.

• 6:53Speaker 04

  It is. It's very much who gets the rose at the Hebrew 17:1.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Or almond bud. Yeah, is, is quite literally what it is. But God says, "Speak to the Israelites and get 12 staffs from them, one for each ancestral house, from all the leaders of their ancestral houses. Write each man's name on his staff, and write Aaron's name on the staff of Levi. For thou, there shall be one staff for the head of each ancestral house. Place them in the tent of meeting before the covenant, where I meet with you." And this reference to the covenant is the, basically the Ark of the Covenant and the tablets of the covenant.

• 7:38Speaker 04

  Okay. Thank you. Because I read that, and I was like, I don't, okay, I don't know what that is, before the covenant.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and this is an important phrase. We're gonna come back to this phrase.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  "Lefne ha'edut." That is, before, in front of the presence of the covenant. And not "berit." Berit is, is the normal Hebrew noun for covenant. "Edut" is, is more like the testimony. And so that is the, the tablets of the law.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  And as I have argued in print, the, the testimony is a stand-in for God. Like, to be before the testimony is kind of like being before God. But when we're thinking about the temple, it means in front of the Ark of the Covenant. So keep that in mind, in front of the Ark of the Covenant. So the rods are all placed in front of the Ark of the Covenant.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, everybody brings their stick, all of the, all the 12 tribes.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  You gotta pick out a nice stick.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Gotta get a good stick.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. We, we see videos on TikTok of, of guys who are like, "Look at the stick I found." And you can just imagine, they were like, "We gotta get the best stick in our tribe." So they, they get all the sticks. And God says, "The staff of the man whom I choose shall sprout. Thus, I will put a stop to the complaints of the Israelites that they continually make against you." So.

• 9:08Speaker 04

  Now, as, as I was imagining this story.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:14Speaker 04

  It's Moses who's telling, who's sort of, God's saying this to Moses, and then Moses is repeating it to these people, right?

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  I think that that is funny to me, that these guys are all like, "Who made you the, the mouthpiece of God? Why do we have to listen to you?" And then he's like, "Well, here's what God says about how that's gonna work."

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can, you can imagine a lot of them being like, "This kind of feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy."

• 9:41Speaker 04

  Right. So this is, so you tell us what the game is and how the rules work, and then we just go along with that?

• 9:49Speaker 03

  We just pick a card from you. You're the one holding the deck.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  And he's thinking, I will prove to everybody

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  That God has chosen me when you tell me what card you chose.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  Like, what's up your sleeve? The Lord has told me that there is nothing up my sleeve.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  So they, they, they bring their sticks. They go out and they find their prettiest sticks. They, they bring it back. Moses places the staffs before the Lord. And what did I just say? Before the testimony or before the covenant?

• 10:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Now they're being placed before the Lord. So this is where we've got this synonymous, kind of one is standing in for the other. And as I argue in my book, Adonai's Divine Images, the Ark of the Covenant, the Tablets of the Law are divine images which manifest the presence of God. Same, same.

• 10:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  It's same difference.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  So, yeah, they, they don't make a distinction between the Ark of the Covenant and before the Lord.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so Moses goes into the tents of the covenant on the next day, and the staff of Aaron for the house of Levi had sprouted. It put forth buds, produced blossoms and bore ripe almonds.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  That's a

• 11:00Speaker 03

  And Moses had something to put in his oatmeal.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  That's impressive. Uh, that is, that's, that's a lot of, of stuff to happen overnight.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then Moses brought out all the staffs from before the Lord to all the Israelites. And they looked and each man took his staff. And the Lord said to Moses, put back the staff of Aaron before the covenant to be kept as a warning to rebels so that you may make an end of their complaints against me or else they will die. Moses did so, which what?

• 11:35Speaker 04

  Which is funny, like that, like to me, seeing a sprouting, uh, rod with almonds on it does not immediately make me think, oh, I have to follow this guy or I'll die. Like, it feels like a much nicer image than just a skull and crossbones style message.

• 11:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. But, but it's also like, so the place that only you are allowed to go in.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  You went into and you brought out this stick with all these leaves on it. And that's supposed to be the sign to us that you're in charge.

• 12:12Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  And he's like, well, I promise it was all that was in there.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. And this is, you, you'll recall the story of Bell and the Dragon where they put the, they put the food in the temple for, uh, uh, for the God. And then when they go in to check and see what happened to the, the food, they, they use the sand.

• 12:34Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  And they can see the footprints of the priests who have come out from behind and then taken and all that kind of stuff.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Like, it's suspicious.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  It does, it does feel like they, the, uh, the rest of the tribes, the leaders of the rest of the tribes could have been a little, if they're, if they're like that bent about Moses's leadership, they could be a little less credulous about this whole thing.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  Well, they do seem to be a little less credulous. There's less credulity than God seems to think there would have been because the very next verse says, "The Israelites said to Moses, we are perishing, we are lost, all of us are lost. Everyone who approaches the tabernacle of the Lord will die. Are we all to perish?"

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Right. It feels like an overreaction.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Moses goes in, puts the sticks down, comes back out and is like, this is the stick that had the thing on it. And now you can't go in though, cause you'll die if you go in there.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I say it's an overreaction, but I have read the previous, uh, chapter. So I guess nothing's an overreaction. We'll get to that next week, but like, yeah, nothing's an overreaction to

• 13:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  Holy cow.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  In a world of overreactions, this is the least overreaction.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  But, but here's the cool thing that I love about all of this. We have basically, and, and so the Aaron's budding rod was put back in the temple. They were like, here, get your stick out of here. But Aaron's, they, they put back before the covenant, in front of the Ark of the Covenant. Now in later traditions, it's in the Ark of the Covenant.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  But in this story, it's not. It's before the testimony, which means it's in front of or next to the Ark of the Covenant. Now I want to talk about, uh, there's a, there's another story in Numbers where we have the bronze or the brazen serpent. You remember this story, the Nahushtan?

• 14:34Speaker 04

  No, I don't know, I don't know this one.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  You don't remember this story? Okay, so this is where they have the, the serpents, the fiery serpents, uh, bite the Israelites and they're, they're gonna die. But then God tells Moses to put a bronze serpent on the end of a pole.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  They look at the serpent and they live.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  And then that gets put in the temple. And then later on, they have to, uh, Hezekiah has to take it out and smash it to dust because they're worshiping it as an idol, as a divine image.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  Now in Josiah's day, they bring some things out of the temple and smash them to dust because they were being worshiped. And one of those things was an Asherah pole.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  I think I see where you're going with this.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Where some dots are slowly beginning to connect. Yes, the, uh, so according to the Deuteronomistic authors, who are telling the stories about what was going on with the worship of Adonai, there was an Asherah pole in the temple in the days of Josiah.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Now this is, what we're reading here is not from the Deuteronomistic layer. It's from the priestly layer. And the priestly layer never condemns Asherah or Asherah poles. But an Asherah pole would have been a stick, maybe a stylized tree. And one of the, uh, we've, we've talked about the Kuntila Dajrude drawings and inscriptions in the past on the show. The big pithos A that has the drawing of Adonai and his Asherah and the inscription. The other side of that pithos has a stylized tree with ibexes feeding on either side of it.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  And what's interesting is a lot of people have suggested that the particular tree that is being depicted is an almond tree.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  Because it has some buds, some flowers and what look like almonds. And so, hmm, isn't it peculiar that we have a story where we have this narrative that accounts for why there is a stylized tree, not in the Ark of the Covenant, but in the temple next to the Ark of the Covenant?

• 17:00Speaker 03

  So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house. We are

• 17:06Speaker 04

  I've heard the construction.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, you've heard the construction too. Uh, we're, we're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're, we're, um, doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this. Cause we, I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these, these improvements to the house, but we had to pay off our, our old car and that took actual planning, which you know I hate. Um, and so I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances. And we had to set dates and we had to create a budget. And it was so satisfying to actually make a plan.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  And then even though it took some discipline and there were some bumps in the road, we actually succeeded and we're able to pay off a car, got a brand new car. And it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.

• 18:15Speaker 04

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• 20:22Speaker 04

  And sorry, I just realized that one thing we should probably do is remind people that Asherah was another divine being and

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:31Speaker 04

  potentially the consort of Adonai.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  The wife of God. Yes. Asherah Athirot in the Yoguritic literature was a goddess who was in charge of a variety of different things, warfare, motherhood, fertility, things like that. And Asherah is demonized within the Deuteronomistic literature and later literature. But pre-Deuteronomistic texts never have anything nasty to say about Asherah. And so there's an argument, and there's been a paper that was published on this 2019 by Ranan Eichler, called The Priestly Asherah, which makes the case that the story is actually an attempt to account for why there was

• 21:19Speaker 03

  an Asherah pole in the Holy of Holies. And we have

• 21:24Speaker 04

  An account, so, so like as opposed to the idea of Asherah worship having been condoned, you're saying that this, the, the, the theory is that this would have been a retcon of why that pole was in there that doesn't involve Asherah?

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, this is, this is a way this sanitizes the presence of this, of this pole in there. Now, it depends on, on when this was written. It depends on, on a lot of different things, but this is a fascinating way to, to account for, because you, later on, again, when they talk about Aaron's budding rod, it's always like, oh, they stuck it in the Ark of the Covenant. They were like, put it in the garage, in the big box.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  Remember, we have the, we have the two tablets of the law, we have the, the manna that we put in there, throw the rod in there as well. Even though it seems to me, I've, I've always been confused by this. I picture the Ark of the Covenant as yea big. A walking staff would not fit inside the way I have always understood the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, unless it was a very, very small.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  The Bible does spell out the dimensions of the ark.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, like unless it's bottom corner to opposite top corner being wedged in there, I'm, it just doesn't seem to me like it would fit. But the story doesn't say it went in the Ark of the Covenant. The story said it went lifnei ha'edut. It went before, in front of

• 23:02Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  the, the covenant or the testimony, which, and, and there's, there's a book called Biblical Ambiguities by another scholar named David Aaron, that talks a little bit about why things go in front of divine images and rather than inside or whatever. But, and, and this happens with, with a few different things. The testimony, there's a, the, the two tablets of the law, at one point, they are to be before the Ark of the Covenant rather than in. It's only later stories where they go in. So like, there are a bunch of different ways that the, the story is suggestive of something,

• 23:46Speaker 03

  something peculiar here, but it also, it also raises an interesting question related to

• 23:53Speaker 03

  the, what goes on in Numbers 20. Numbers 20 is the entire reason that Moses did not get to enter the promised land. Do you recall anything about that story?

• 24:04Speaker 04

  That he did not get to go into the promised land?

• 24:07Speaker 03

  That's what you

• 24:07Speaker 04

  That is what I recall.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  That is accurate. So the, the purpose was, they had no water for the congregation. They get, they, everybody gathers together against Moses and Aaron. They're all mad again, even though God said this would stop them from being mad at you. And they're all whining. And God tells Moses, he tells him something to do. He says, take the staff.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Okay, what staff?

• 24:34Speaker 04

  Right.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  It just says the staff. I believe it's hameta. But he, take the staff, assemble the congregation, and then command the rock before their eyes to yield its water. At Numbers 20, verse nine, so Moses took the staff, hamate, not metas, I don't know why I did that, hamate, from before the Lord. And, or no, wait, doesn't, it doesn't say the Lord, the, and, oh.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah, from before the Lord. So this is a staff that's sitting before the Lord. So this is not like, hey, that staff that's in your hand?

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Do it with that. No, God says, take the staff from before the Lord. What staff is before is lifnei Adonai? It's Aaron's budding rod.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  There you go. That's, that's only two chapters earlier. So

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's

• 25:34Speaker 04

  It makes, like, if this were in a different book, then, then there would be much more question, but this is the same book. This is just two chapters separated. So it feels like,

• 25:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  it's very safe to assume that we're talking about that rod.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, so yeah, vayikach moshe et hamate milifnei Adonai, ka'ashertzivah hu, as he commanded him. So we've got what seems to be Aaron's budding rod or an Asherah pole, and God tells Moses, take the Asherah pole and then command the, the rock, and it will bring forth water. And Moses goes, ha, and, and, and basically just smacks the rock with the budding rod, which may be the Asherah pole. And now God is like, that's it. You lost, that was your last chance. No more going into the promised land for you, buddy. And it's, it's, it's always struck

• 26:31Speaker 03

  me and, and most readers of the Bible, most, most critical readers of the Bible as a, another overreaction. For God to be like,

• 26:41Speaker 03

  I told you to just command the rock and you hit it. And that, so that's it. You don't get to go into the promised land. We've been wandering for 40 years.

• 26:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  And it was all, and, and you gave it all up just because you wanted to slap that rock with a stick.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  It does, it does seem like an overreaction. It's, yeah, it's, like, that, that could just be a misunderstanding.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if, if, if there is more significance to the rod, particularly as an Asherah pole, uh, it's not the Moses's own staff. It's the flowering rod of Aaron, which is supposed to represent the authority that, that Moses and Aaron have. This is God's sign to the people that this is,

• 27:31Speaker 03

  this is the person in whom I am placing this authority. It takes on new significance. And there, there, there are different ways that one could understand this. It's like, hey, that's my wife. You're, you're doing that too.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  If we understand this as

• 27:46Speaker 04

  You could have broken that. She was, she worked very hard on that.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. Then, yeah, it's, it kind of changes the story a little bit.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  It is, and you know, it's a, it's a source of blessing. The, the one who is God's authorized spokesperson is the source of blessing. And what is, what is the Asherah if not a source of blessing? Now blessing related to things like conception and childbirth and breastfeeding and fertility and things like that in, in ancient Israelite worship practices. But it's still a source of blessing and it is associated with water as well. As, you know, it's a staff that's budding. It represents a tree. It can represent the tree of life.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  Right.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  And so here, yeah, it is the means of bringing water so that everybody can survive. So there, there are a lot of

• 28:45Speaker 04

  You like to survive. Surviving is, is good.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. So there's, yeah, there's, there's a lot of interesting stuff in understanding Aaron's budding rod as, as an Asherah pole. And, you know, if we're understanding the, the Nehushtan, which is the bronze serpent that Moses put on the end of a pole, as another divine image that was in the temple. And I, I have argued that the tablets of the law were a divine image that were put into the temple. Like they, they were just collecting all kinds of divine images there in that temple. And that's why Hezekiah and later Josiah, at least from the perspective of the Southern Judaite authors who are telling these stories,

• 29:30Speaker 03

  that was all big time no-no. And they, those things had to be brought out. They had to be crushed to dust. And the people who were responsible for facilitating that worship were, were killed and their bones were ground to dust and all kinds of.

• 29:45Speaker 03

  Of bizarre stuff happen, but there's and the connection with the tree of life is interesting. We've talked about the menorah on the show in the past, haven't we?

• 29:55Speaker 04

  I maybe, I don't know. How do I know what we've talked about?

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Cause the menorah is another connection here because even, even if we, um, you know, the Aaron's budding rod is not always in the picture.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  We have a story about it here. Later on, it's in the ark of the covenant, but there is something else that is always in front of or leaf nay, high deute, the, or the ark of the covenant, and that is the menorah, the lampstand.

• 30:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  Which is, uh, early drawings of it, kind of crude drawings represent a, a central branch and then three half circles pointed up, um, crossing that central branch.

• 30:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  And that's a menorah, but there's an interesting artifact known as the Lakish Uweh from a place that, uh, is called Lakish, that it has a painting, well, it has a few drawings and an inscription. And one of the drawings is a, a tree with ibexes feeding on either side of it. But the tree is a central branch and then three upturned half circles.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  Representing the other branches.

• 31:07Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  And so there are a number of scholars who have argued that the menorah in its own way represents Asherah or an Asherah pole.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  And that, that Lakish Uweh has an inscription that says for the goddess on it.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  All right.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  So, so we've got, we've got a number of connections between things that are in the temple and Asherah and Aaron's budding rod is just another connection that I, I think is fascinating. It's, it's an interesting story in its own right in the kind of cycle of mumbling, God publicly kills thousands of people, mumbling, God publicly kills thousands of people, mumbling and they, and God says, well, this will stop the mumbling.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  This'll do it for sure.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then it doesn't. And then God kills a bunch of people. So, uh, we've got, and then, uh, Moses, you know, that everybody's done terrible stuff, but Mo, like even Aaron created a divine image and told all of Israel to worship it while Moses was above getting the tablets of the law that say, don't worship divine images. Aaron's fine. Like Aaron's never threatened with death, but Moses slaps a rock with a stick and suddenly he's not allowed to enter the promised land. So.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  You know, mysterious ways, I think.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  The book of numbers is bonkers.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  It's wild.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Is what we're trying to say here.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  It's wild. Absolutely. All right. Well, I think that's fascinating, fun stuff. Uh, and I'd love, I love the connection to Asherah. I think that that is, uh, that's always exciting stuff. I love, I'm a big Asherah fan. I'm a, I'm, I'm a huge, uh, a huge stan for Asherah. All right. Well, let's move on then to our, to this week's chapter and verse.

• 33:07Speaker 04

  So, 2nd Maccabees, chapter six.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  It's, uh, it's a good time. Uh, we, I.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  It's not a good time for the Jewish.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  It's not a good time for the dude. Uh, here's what, here's what I was sort of, my brain got a little wacky with was that when I first started to read this, I was like, oh crap, I think we've done this one. And then I realized that as I read on and then as I read, went on to the next chapter, I was like, oh, we haven't done this one. We did the next one. So we, uh, so, yeah, remind us where we are, what's happening, uh, what's going on within Maccabees, uh, and, uh, and just sort of set the stage for this story.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. Let us lay our scene in the not so fair, uh, period of the reign of Antiochus the fourth epiphanes who was put in charge of Judea and the surrounding area and decides to, for, to try to achieve some unity is basically going to impose just Hellenistic cultural mores and norms and conventions. Everybody's Hellenized now.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  You're all Greeks.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  Yes. And so Antiochus goes into the temple, uh, profanes the temple, does some bad stuff, is suppressing the practice of Judaism and, and the, the main things are like circumcision is a no-no, uh, but the, the main tool, the main way to get people to demonstrate their abandonment, basically of, of Jewish ideals is to get them to eat pork.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  So they're just giving, just handing out free ham left and right. And, um,

• 34:54Speaker 04

  I don't feel like it's, I don't feel like handing out is, uh, is the characterization that I would go with.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's, uh, being forced shoved down people's throats, basically.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. As a way to, to try to basically just defile the, their laws.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  And we've already talked about 2nd Maccabees seven, the famous story of the mother and the seven sons. And I, I'm sure we talked about how there are like multiple different iterations of that story.

• 35:27Speaker 04

  We probably did. You guys can go and verify that and find, find the episode where we talk about that.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's another version where it's a father named Tahoe and, and he's, and he like kills his seven sons one by one, rather than give them up to the, to the Romans. Like it's a, it's, uh, it's a bizarre story, but there's, there's actually a martyrdom that precedes that. And, and this is, the end of chapter seven says, let this be enough then about the eating of sacrifices and the extreme tortures. Like we shared two main stories and then the author's like, we've had enough of hearing about this.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  You get it. You get it.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 04

  The whole sacrifice thing.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  So, so what's the opposite of women and children? Well, it would be an old man.

• 36:12Speaker 04

  An old man.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  And, and that's what we get in the story of the martyrdom of Eleazar, uh, which runs from chapter six, verse 18 through to the end, verse, uh, 31. And I thought we could just read through it and pause and talk every now and then about what's going on here. And so Eleazar, one of the scribes in high position, a man now advanced and in age and of noble presence was being forced to open his mouth to eat pigs flesh. So, old guy. And, and in, in this time period, age seniority had a lot of honor that was associated with it.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. And that's made clear. Like throughout this whole thing, it's, it's, it's like, this guy was amazing from his whole birth, his whole life he's been amazing, but now he's like the most honorable man.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it says, but he welcoming death with honor rather than life with pollution, went up to the rack of his own accord, spitting it out as all ought to go, who have the courage to refuse things that it is not right to taste, even for the natural love of life. And so the idea is, um, you know, honor and purity, you should love more than you should love your own life.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  So we're, we're getting a story of basically the ultimate costly signal. Cause that's the, that's kind of the ideal that is, that has been explicitly repeated here.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Love the law, love purity, love honor more than even your own life. And as, as I'm reading this, I'm reminded of stories that, that we've lamented, uh, within, um, my own tradition, but, but this is something we find in a lot of different traditions where people will talk about, um, chastity, being more important than your own life. You ought to fight to the death, uh, rather than be forced to lose your virginity, your chastity or something like that. Which is obviously biologically meaningless. Uh, that is just.

• 38:18Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's a, it's a weird thing to, to tell a, I mean, and there's always young women that are, that get this messaging.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Well, and, and there's a reason for that. It, it's really just a vestige of the treatment of a woman's body as a commodity to be bought and sold.

• 38:34Speaker 04

  Right.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  That's what's going on with marriage in the Bible and it, we're still kind of building on that foundation of, oh, that's for her husband to utilize and make use of. So it's got to be shiny and new and have that new car smell.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Right.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  When he purchases it, cause that's his property now. So, so that's, that's really the origin of the perception that there's anything special about this thing known as virginity that we made up. Anyway, that's, that's neither here nor there, but what we've got is, is this costly signal and being very explicit about it.

• 39:10Speaker 04

  Well, and being very explicit about, I, you know, what, what it reminded me of, and the thing that I thought you were about to bring up is stories that we were told by, uh, April of Joy and by Monty Mater of being told their whole lives that they were going to be, they were likely going to encounter a moment where they were, their faith was challenged in the way that this, that Eleazar's faith is challenged and that they were going to have to make a decision and that they would, they should lay down their lives rather than ever deny Christ or whatever. And, uh, and you know, that doesn't ever happen,

• 39:52Speaker 04

  but the, but that story is prominent in a lot of like evangelical or, or, or very, uh, very conservative Christian circles here in the U.S. I don't know how prominent it is in other parts of the world, but, but that seems to be a big deal. Uh, which is weird because they don't even read 2nd Maccabees. So how do they even know that stuff? Anyway, let's go on with the story.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  But that's, uh, well, to, to riff off of that a little bit too. I'm, I'm reminded of a story that I always thought was fascinating. Uh, in, in Nazi Germany, there was a Jewish family that was trying to get out and they were, the, the father was a photographer and he. You know, was surrounded by Christians. And so one of an advertisement that he put together was a way to promote his business. He had his family pose as if they were celebrating Christmas. And he took photos of his family celebrating Christmas. They were Jewish. They were not Christians. He used that as evidence at the border.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  That they were not Jewish and got out, escaped Nazi Germany. And I've always thought, wow, what a well, one, just awful, awful circumstances. How fortunate for this man and his family that he had that promotional work available to use in that way. But also, and then I thought, if I were a one of these Christians who was like, you will die before you will, you know, abandon the faith or something like that. I would have that that would be represented as a violation of of your your expectations, your duties as a Christian, your, you're quite explicitly saying, nope, I want to live. And, and I

• 41:38Speaker 03

  so the the value there, I just find that fascinating to think about how certain people will hold up certain things as, as identity markers that you need to place before your own life. And I'm of the opinion that that there's not really a good reason for that kind of thing. And so, anyway.

• 42:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, it has to be better than, to my mind, there are, there may be very rare circumstances where, you know, you take a principled stand that costs you your life.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  But it's not pork. Can we just, can we just agree that it's not, it's not food?

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, and, and, and there are a variety of things that it shouldn't be. I mean, you know, the lives of other people.

• 42:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  Obviously, there, there, there are things that I think are bigger than us that that yeah, are, are valid.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  But usually when people are trying to identify, trying to leverage these identity markers, it's not actual important stuff.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Anyway, verse 21, those who were in charge of that unlawful sacrifice took the man aside because of their long acquaintance with him, and privately urged him to bring meat of his own providing, proper for him to use, and to pretend that he was eating the flesh of the sacrificial meal that had been commanded by the king. So basically, they were like, Eliezer, dude, we know you.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Just go home and and get some chicken.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  Sneak in some, some chicken, and we'll all just say it's pork, and it'll be cool.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. So that by doing this, he might be saved from death and be treated kindly on account of his old friendship with them. But making a high resolve worthy of his years and the dignity of his old age and the gray hairs that he had reached with distinction in his excellent life, even from childhood. And moreover, according to the holy God given law, he declared himself quickly, telling them to send him to Hades. So yeah, he's not having it. And I love that the he's earned these gray hairs. I think it's an interesting ideal that people with gray hair ought to be honored. Like you, I see that in texts,

• 44:01Speaker 03

  and I hear that a lot. I don't know anybody who's actually, actually feels like, like gray hair is, is something that that merits praise.

• 44:11Speaker 04

  As an, as an increasingly gray person, I would like us to bring that back. I would like us to revive the revering of older folks.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  So I, as you know, I have had to shave for the better part of my adult life.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  As a Latter Day Saint, whether I was a missionary or working for the LDS Church or whatever. When I was able to let my beard grow back in, and this has, it actually wasn't when I left my old job, it was during COVID. Because they sent us to work from home.

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  And the, the no beard policy was kind of, the status of that was up in the air. And I let my beard grow out. And I was like, it's gray. I was like, this is awesome. Because it's, it was, it's gray in the corners.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  It's like, I, I look like freaking Doctor Strange. This is awesome. So I was, I was excited to have, to have gray hair. But, yeah, but.

• 45:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 03

  But anyway, so such, and then Eliezer makes his own little speech. And this is funny. At the end, it's going to be like, with his dying breath, he made this long speech. And it's like, people don't make long speeches punctuated by a bunch of grammatical flourishes.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  No, and certainly not.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  With their dying breath.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. This isn't the dying breath speech, right? You're on, you're on verse 24. When we get to the dying breath speech, I will make my complaint about the dying breath speech.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Such pretense is not worthy of our time of life, he said, for many of the young might suppose that Eliezer, now he's speaking in the third person. In his 90th year had gone over to a foreign way of life. And through my pretense, for the sake of living a brief moment longer, they would be led astray because of me, while I defile and disgrace my old age. Even if for the present, I would avoid the punishment of mortals, yet whether I live or die, I will not escape the hands of the Almighty. Therefore, by bravely giving up my life now, I will show myself worthy of my old age, and leave to the young a noble example of how to die a good death willingly and nobly

• 46:18Speaker 03

  for the revered and holy laws. Like, you couldn't get a more, like, perfect message for the youth.

• 46:26Speaker 04

  Allow me to sum up.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  He's even talking to you. Yeah. For the sake of any youth who might hear this story in the coming months and years.

• 46:36Speaker 04

  It is, it is a bit much. And calling yourself brave, this brave stance of mine.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  It does seem, it does seem a little less brave to be 90 and doing like, you're on your way out. You're already there. You're like, if you, you know, this.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  You're walking off the green. You need to, yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. In the next chapter, when, when the kids do it, when the, when the young people do it, that's, that's a different story. But yeah, 90 year old is like, you may take my life. It's like, okay, you didn't have much going on.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Which is, which is already, I haven't had my pills. So, you know.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  I'm one step out the door anyway.

• 47:16Speaker 03

  But I think this, this is interesting, because the two stories are so different in that way and in other ways.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  That it strikes me, I have argued in a paper from a long time ago, that I don't really fully stand by anymore. Because I was, I was an undergrad. But I argued that these are actually redactions, that that somebody has put these stories in here in the process of putting together the version of Second Maccabees that we have, and that these stories are from different authors. Because, like, the, this story, like, quite explicitly is like, this is to be a lesson to all the youth out there. And, but in the, in the next story, it's explicitly framed as, as a proxy sacrifice.

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  As, as like, expiatory, where he says, through, through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation. So like, the message is entirely different.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  For the two as well. Because Eliezer is not like, our nation has sinned, and I'm doing this so that my death will expiate the sins of, like, it's not that at all. He's, he's just saying, I'm setting an example for others that we must, you know, follow the revered and holy laws.

• 48:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  So the, it's, it's an entirely different conceptualization of the meaning and the significance of the death, as well as being an example of a death. It's like, well, that was coming, that was in the post. You know, that was, whereas then they're like, fine, we'll do one with young kids.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  So.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  The kids that he was talking to have heard him and are, and are now ready to, the youth, the Eliezer's example has been set and.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  And heated.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  What is the, what is the Eliezer's junior, what's Lebowski's little somethings?

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Little urban achievers?

• 49:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. We've got Eliezer's little, little law followers.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  Little, little urban martyrs.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh. When he said, when he had said this, he was dragged at once to the rack. Those who a little before had acted toward him with goodwill now changed to ill will, because the words he had uttered were, in their opinion, sheer madness. When he was about to die under the blows, he groaned aloud and said, it is clear to the Lord in his holy knowledge that though I might have been saved from death, I am enduring terrible sufferings in my body under this beating, but in my soul, I am glad to suffer these

• 50:06Speaker 03

  things because I fear him. We got multiple clauses being strung together here.

• 50:13Speaker 04

  It's, it's truly an elegant thing to have proclaimed while you're on the rack.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  Yes, groaning in agony.

• 50:22Speaker 04

  Your bones are being broken while you're, and, but he had some serious wherewithal to get that one out.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then verse 31, the end of the story. So in this way, he died, leaving in his death, an example of nobility and a memorial of courage, not only to the young, but to the great body of this nation. So, like, multiple times, the author is like, in case you haven't gotten it yet, this is the point of this story. It is quite on the nose.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, it feels, and it's reiterated multiple times. It does feel like, if ever there was a story that was written. Not, not based on anything true, but like written as a parable, as a, as a, as a specific illustration of a specific concept. This feels like it's this.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  What is the, there's a joke about how like TV execs these days are like, because of the attention span of the TikTok generation, you have to like explicitly lay out the plot over and over and over again. Like I think I heard somebody complain that TV executives are like, there's, you can't be subtle. You have to be explicit about the plot. And then they, they made fun of it by, by like imagining, here's the plot of some famous story where everybody's like, and just to be sure, this symbol represents this thing over here. And like, I'm sure there are people out there who could rattle off the names of like directors or producers or something who are like that. I can't, but so imagine that I'm like, so,

• 52:02Speaker 03

  so basically this was written by so and so, who's famous industry person who always makes sure everything is explicitly clear about all the symbolism and everything. But yeah, not subtle about what the significance of Eliezer's death was. But in, you know, this was 2000 some odd years ago. So they, they hadn't, they were still a ways off from TikTok. So their attention spans were, were a little different. But, and then that leads right into the story of the, the mother and the seven sons, which is even more tragic tale where these are not men in their 90th year. These are young boys who have a lot of life

• 52:45Speaker 03

  ahead of them, but cherish rather the love of God over their, their life. And they know they're going to get resurrected. That's another thing. They're, these stories kind of have the, the intersection of a bunch of ideologies that really developed more fully later, like resurrection, like atoning, sacrifice, all of this stuff. So it sounds-

• 53:11Speaker 04

  Is it, is it resurrection? Or is it just, is it just a nice life in the next phase? I guess I don't really appreciate the difference between resurrection, as in sort of the, the reanimation of, or the reapportionment of one's body?

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Yes. The, the reanimation of dead tissue, as, as they say in Young Frankenstein. I'm, I'm pretty sure it says that we, we will be raised to life.

• 53:46Speaker 04

  Okay. Is that, is that a fairly new concept here? Because, because Eliezer has it and they have it.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Well, Eliezer doesn't have it.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  Well, he says, uh, he's, what does he say? I thought he had something. Though I might be saved from my, from death. Oh no, I'm, I'm in, that's talking about that thing. Okay. So Eliezer doesn't have it.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, Eliezer, and that's, and that's another way the story is different.

• 54:17Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  Is the, and here it is in, in chapter seven, we have verse nine, "And when he was at his last breath," again, the, the final groan, "sillaliqui, you accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to a renewal of everlasting life because we have died for his laws."

• 54:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  And then they say, you, we will be, I thought he said the word resurrected, but let me, let me, because I thought they said, we, we will be resurrected to life, but you will not, or something like that.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Right.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Um, I don't remember where it is and I'm not going to waste-

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Well, everyone can go back and, and listen to our episode about the, the, the mother and the, and the sons, if they want to. But yeah, that is, that is interesting that that's sort of starting to rattle around here.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  But, but, but I think significant that Eliezer doesn't mention that.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  I believe it is significant. Yeah. And another interesting thing is when we, in the book of Daniel, you've got Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who they're told to violate the laws, their ancestral laws. And they said they will, they will trust in God. And then they say, but if not, you know, we're, we're not going to do what you tell us. And basically they're, they're showing themselves willing to die for their faith. But they get saved.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  In 2nd Maccabees, we have two examples of, of people who are willing to die for their faith, but they are not saved. They end up dying for, for their faith. And so it's, it's a development in this ideology where when you look in the earlier stories, in the, particularly in the, in the canonical Hebrew Bible stories, when people are willing to die, God swoops in and saves them. Not so for Eliezer and for the mother and the seven sons, which suggests that there's a pivot towards kind of a more realist perspective.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  Daniel, we assume was written after Maccabees?

• 56:35Speaker 03

  It was written, probably written close to the same time period, but I think probably just before.

• 56:41Speaker 04

  You know, you, we have talked a lot about a category of writing that is apocalyptic writing. Is there, do scholars talk about there being a category for martyrdom stories?

• 56:58Speaker 03

  Oh yeah. Martyrdom tales are, are a part of, they're, they're frequently incorporated into apocalyptic literature. But yeah, these are, these are martyrdom tales. And, but they, they require that the martyrdom actually take place. And I think right around this time period is when you get the pivot from the miraculous salvation of the person who was willing to die to the death of the person who was willing to die. And, because when you get into, you know, and, and later in Judaism, you have fewer miraculous savings. And, and when we get into Christianity, there are a lot more martyrdom tales where they do die.

• 57:38Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Until, you know, we, we talked about thekla and stuff like that, where there's, there are miraculous savings and things like that with Paul and others. But, but yeah, it's, it's certainly martyrdom tales certainly become kind of a genre, particularly within early Judaism and then even more so within early Christianity.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  Well, there you have it. I, I find that, yeah, it's, now my mind's thinking about like Abraham and Isaac and like that, that's almost a miraculous saving of a martyrdom. Not a martyrdom though. I don't know. A sacrifice. It's, it gets confusing. It gets confusing how, how it all works. Anyway, just more fascinating stuff from this wacky book we call the Bible.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  Or at least it's from some bibles. This particular thing, it's, it's apocryphal, but yeah, I love it. All right. Well, that's it for today. If you would like to become a part of keeping this show going and healthy and, and, and happy, you can, you can do it either on YouTube. If you're, if you're watching this on YouTube, there should be a little thing just below the video that's like, join, and then you can join and be one of the members of our channel. And that, and that gives you access to an early version of the show, just like our patrons over on Patreon. We'll get to that. And you get little icons

• 59:15Speaker 04

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• 59:56Speaker 04

  of our patrons there, as are we grateful for the editing work of Roger Goudy and the right hand man-ness of Sam Holden. And we thank you all. We're grateful to all of you for joining us and we'll talk to you again next time.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  Bye, everybody.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

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