You Starve ... Glory Be To God?

In three days, the earth opens up and swallows a household whole, fire consumes 250 men, and a plague takes 14,700 more — and then the very next chapter expects us to be impressed by a dead stick growing flowers. This week we're going chapter and verse with Numbers 16, where a rebellion that names four ringleaders forgets one of them entirely by verse two, can't keep straight which of the rest are actually standing there, and somehow leaves the sons of Korah alive to write a whole run of Psalms. Then we're taking issue with Christian nationalist Joel Webbin, who says the church's job is to look a childless 65-year-old woman in the eye and tell her "you starve, glory be to God" — which runs headlong into the Good Samaritan, the prophetic critique, and the entire point of the thing he claims to believe. Support Data Over Dogma and get every episode early and ad-free, plus exclusive bonus content — become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma Get your Data Over Dogma merch at our online store: https://data-over-dogma-shop.fourthwall.com/ Watch every episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dataoverdogma Follow us: Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/dataoverdogmapod TikTok — https://www.tiktok.com/@data.over.dogma.pod Threads — https://www.threads.com/@dataoverdogmapod X — https://x.com/data_over_dogma Facebook — https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod Get Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book, The Bible Says So: https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/bible-says-so-9781250347466/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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  In three days, we've had 250 people either swallowed by the earth or consumed by fire, and then the next day, we all got zombified and 14,700 people died. And now we're playing with sticks. It just, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

• 1:31Speaker 04

  And I'm Dan Beecher.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same, at least as long as our internet's working, right, Dan?

• 1:46Speaker 04

  We are, we are slaves to the world wide web.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Yes, we are. We had some technical difficulties getting started, but you don't care about any of that. We're here now. That's what's important, right?

• 1:59Speaker 04

  I mean, our YouTube viewers will know that we had some technical difficulties last week as well, and that's just a thing that happens, people. We're not, we're not millionaires over here with their fancy whatevers. I don't know what you have, recording in person and stuff.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  All right. Well, we got a fun show coming up. I'm excited about it. We've got two things. So last week, at some point, we talked about Numbers 17, which was a fun, a fun discussion. But when we discussed it, I was like, but what about Numbers 16? Because I had read that, and it felt like it informed it. But also, it felt like a big story that maybe we could just do on its own. So we're gonna, we're gonna start with Numbers 16. That's our chapter and verse. And then we're gonna take issue. And who daddy? It is, we're taking issue.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  And I believe that most of our listeners slash viewers will also take pretty severe issue with, with some comments by one Joel Webbin, who is a real peach of a, of a fella. He's a, he's a, he's a pastor, I guess, right? He's a...

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Something like that.

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Who, he's a talking head and a real piece of work. So that will be on the second half of the show, and you're not going to want to miss that because some fireworks are gonna fly. But first, let's, let's dive into chapter and verse. And the chapter and verse, okay, we're in Numbers 16 now, and it, this is kind of crazy. This is, I mean, it's like the battle of the Levites. It's the, it's, it's, there's a bunch of grumbling happening, and it is, it's nuts.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  So the consequences of grumbling are, I'm just going to say, extreme.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  A little harsh.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  Uh, you know, last, last week, when Aaron became the priest over everybody, it was, it was done through a nice way. It was like, look, your stick is prettier than everyone else's stick. And that, I think, is a lovely way of indicating who should be in charge.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's following after the Korah episode, however, it is, it, the juxtaposition is a little jarring.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  It's extreme. So we should just talk first about who Korah is. We've got, we've got Korah, that's K-O-R-A-H, it's not like K-C-O-R-A. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Well, we've also got On.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's true.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  So if we're starting in Numbers 16, one, and, and here's where we're gonna start to see that something peculiar is going on here, because verse 1 says, "Now Korah, son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On, son of Peleth, son of Reuben." On disappears from the narrative.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, On just goes away.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's no more On. We are off. It is, which, which suggests, in the mind of a lot of scholars, the composite nature of this story, that we've probably got different traditions that were woven together or separated out. And so we are looking at the end result of the accumulation and redaction and editing of a few different stories. And we're gonna get it, and we're gonna highlight places where we seem to be getting one story and not another. So, yeah, take note of that right off the bat. On, son of Peleth, son of Reuben, seems to be there to kind of indicate a connection

• 6:04Speaker 03

  with Reuben, but then, boop, is blips right out of the story. So this is one of the, the only one of the Israelites that Thanos snapped away was On. Just, he was like, I don't feel so good. And then just dust. So that's what we get at the end of verse 1. But yeah, these, these gentlemen, these brethren, took 250 Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men, and they confronted Moses. So because...

• 6:38Speaker 04

  So that's, that's a mob. 250 is not a small number of people.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not like Steve, Bill, Tom, and I think this is unfair. No, this is pitchforks and, and whatever. They're not lamps, torches, that's what they are. And not the British flashlight, but actual fire torches.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  And they come to Moses, and they confront him, and this is coming right after Moses is basically rattling off a bunch of legislation. And I think right before this, it was like, yeah, put fringes on your garments. And at this point, these guys were like, that's it.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  You know what?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Fringes on the garments.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  I was fine until you fringe, you told me I have to fringe my garments. I'm not into that new-fangled fashion.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  So they, they assemble against Moses and Aaron and said, "You have gone too far." Now, whether this has to do with fringes on the garments, it's not clear. Remember, this is composite. "All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?" And this is related, kind of, to what we have later on with Aaron's budding rod.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Where they're like, wait a minute, we're all holy. The Lord is among us all. Why do you get to be in charge?

• 8:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, why, yeah. So this is, this is a question of like, why aren't we also valid priests or whatever?

• 8:07Speaker 03

  Right. And, and there, this may be a relic of kind of an early confrontation between different priestly schools, because Korah could have been the spokesperson for another priestly school, another Levitical priesthood. So we have the Aaronide, but we have another Kohathite line that descended from Levi that might be asserting the priesthood, and...

• 8:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, because, because, yeah, Korah is of the, of the Levite line, just as Moses and Aaron are.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  And Moses hears the challenge, falls on his face, then he spoke to Korah and all his congregation. Now, notice, it's Korah and three other dudes, and now it's only Korah and his congregation.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  So like...

• 9:01Speaker 04

  It has whittled down significantly.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, I picture Moses being like, where'd everybody go? And Korah's like, what?

• 9:09Speaker 03

  I swear I had three other guys here.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  And he speaks to the congregation, says, "In the morning, the Lord will make known who is his and who is holy, and who will be allowed to approach him. The one whom he will choose will be allowed to approach him." So this is basically like, look, our priests are the ones who are allowed to approach God, so God is gonna let us know. And as we talked about last time, it feels kinda like cheating to be like, "Hey, I'll go talk to him. He'll let us know if I'm right or if you're right." You can't come see, though.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  I'll go talk to God, and he'll tell you how we're gonna determine this, through me exclusively.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  And so Moses says, "Here's what we're gonna do. Take censors, not like television censors, but the metal things to carry fire in. Korah and all your congregation. And tomorrow, put fire in them and lay incense on them before the Lord, and the man whom the Lord chooses shall be the holy one." You Levites have gone too far!

• 10:23Speaker 03

  And this is evidently what Moses is saying to Korah and his congregation.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I don't thi-- here's the thing. Okay, so everybody's gonna bring their little fire holders to the tent, and that all seemed like, okay, we're prepping for a miracle. I did not have any idea how Game of Thrones this was about to get.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it doesn't really say, "Here's how it's gonna be done." He's just like, "Oh, you'll know."

• 10:56Speaker 04

  Bring the stuff, and by the time whatever happens, happens, we'll all know who has been chosen.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, which does not bode well. If you're watching this on TV, you're like, "Ooh, it's coming for them." You know what's happening now. Then Moses said to Korah, "Here now, you Levites. Is it too little for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel to allow you to approach him in order to perform the duties of the Lord's tabernacle, and to stand before the congregation and serve him? He has allowed you to approach him and all your brother Levites with you, yet you seek the priesthood as well. Therefore, you and all your congregation have gathered together against the Lord. What is errand that you rail against him?" And now we have this thing where it says, "Moses sent for Dathan and Abiram, sons of

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Eliab, but they said, 'We will not come.'"

• 11:51Speaker 03

  They were there!

• 11:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  According to verse 1, Korah grabs the other guys, and they are chosen, along with these guys, took 250 Israelite men. They assembled against Moses, but now they're not there. And Moses had only been talking to Korah.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  I took that to mean that we are a little further along in the story, and everybody's gone back to get their censors or whatever. And then these guys are like, "You know what? I've seen Game of Thrones. I'm not coming."

• 12:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is peculiar, and there are scholars who have accounted for this in a variety of ways. Most commonly, I think, there's an idea that there are either two or three different revolts tales that are being consolidated into one.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  One involves Korah, at least one involves Dathan and Abiram. And so Moses sends for them. They say, "We will not come. Is it too little that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness, that you must also lord it over us? It is clear that you have not brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey, or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Would you put out the eyes of these men? We will not come."

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Suddenly, where the "putting out the eyes" come from?

• 13:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  That's a little more Game of Thrones than things had been up to this point. But also, their complaint seems very different now.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:33Speaker 03

  Because now it's suddenly about, yeah, now their complaint is about leaving Egypt, and we've not yet come to a land flowing with milk and honey, although there are scholars who have argued that the Hebrew here is a little squirrely, and you could understand it to actually be saying, "You have not brought us to a land flowing with milk and honey, but to an inheritance of fields and vineyards," where we've got to toil for our food. Whereas, the idea of land flowing with milk and honey, the Hebrew word there, actually has more to do with like, gushing. It's that the land produces it naturally.

• 14:17Speaker 04

  This is Big Rock Candy Mountain.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is where there's just milk and honey just coming up out the ground.

• 14:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  All you need is a bucket.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  Which is funny, because they seem to be indicating that they came from a land of milk and honey.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is an odd memory of being under brutal enslavement to the Egyptians.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  A weird way of envisioning your, like, two years ago, being slaves.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and there are some folks who think that maybe this story is actually set in the land of Israel, like, they've already gotten there, and they're complaining that the land isn't good enough? That's an argument that's been offered as well.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  This is the worst Israel I've ever been to. I object.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if the idea is, "Hey, look, it's fields and vineyards. We have to toil and work, and, you know, just to try to get this stony ground to produce stuff." Moses was very angry, said to the Lord, "Pay no attention to their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, and I have not harmed any one of them." So Moses, it's kinda like Moses is in front of the temple and knows that God is listening, and is like, "That's a lie, that's a lie," to turn it around and yelling into the doorway of the temple. "That's a lie."

• 15:35Speaker 04

  "Nuh-uh, Dad, he's lying."

• 15:39Speaker 03

  And Moses said to Korah, "As for you and all your congregation, be present tomorrow before the Lord, you and they and Aaron." Wait a minute, it's back to Korah.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, oh, right.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Dathan and Abiram, oh, so like, we could understand this to mean that he sent for them, and they sent a message, and maybe Korah was like, "Here's what they said." But, yeah, it is a little peculiar. "Be present tomorrow before the Lord, you and they and Aaron, and let each one of you take his censer and put incense on it, and each one of you present his censer before the Lord. 250 censors, you also and Aaron, each his censer." So they did it. They laid incense on them, and they stood at the entrance of the tent of meeting with Moses and Aaron. Then Korah assembled the whole congregation against them at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord appeared to the whole congregation.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  So Korah's there again. It was supposed to be everybody, but who knows what's going on here, apart from the conclusion that this is actually Korah all by himself in one version of the story, and then the other two in another version of the story.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Then the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, "Separate yourselves from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment."

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, so--

• 17:04Speaker 04

  I mean, it's just, and what does that even look like? Let's just say that that's what happened. Aaron and Moses are like, "You know what? We left something back at our place." "We're gonna run real quick. My censer, this is not my good censer. Why did I even bring this censer? What am I doing?"

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, so they come back out, and they said, "God said we should stand over there."

• 17:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, "You guys stay where you are. It's cool. We just have to pee."

• 17:33Speaker 03

  They fell on their faces and said, "Oh, God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, saw one person sin, and you become angry with the whole congregation?" And the Lord spoke to Moses, "Speak to the congregation, saying, 'Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.'" So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram. The elders of Israel followed him. He spoke to the congregation. So, once again, part of the narrative is identifying three men, and then the narrative goes on to have Moses only engaging with a fraction of that. He spoke to the congregation, saying, "Turn away from the tents of these wicked men and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins."

• 18:16Speaker 03

  So they got away, and now Moses is like, "Uh, move back, move back."

• 18:19Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. It is nice of Moses and Aaron to be like, "Hey, maybe you don't have to kill all of these people, just because these three guys gathered them up," or whatever.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  So, "From you to the left, go that way."

• 18:35Speaker 04

  "We're gonna get to, from you to the left, go that way," in the second part of this story.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  But yeah, okay, so--

• 18:42Speaker 03

  So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrances of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. Where's Korah? So now it's Korah who's like, "I'm not coming out of my room."

• 18:59Speaker 03

  And Korah's wife, or wives and children--

• 19:02Speaker 04

  On the other side of camp. He was, "You have to go, you have to do this geographically."

• 19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Moses said, "This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works. It has not been of my own accord. If these people die, a natural death, or if a natural fate comes to them, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord." So gauntlet, throne, and we've got Dathan and Abiram standing at the front of their tents with their young'uns huddling around their calves.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  I mean, presumably, at that moment, the family is all going, "Wait, what now? I'm sorry, there's, something's going to--

• 20:01Speaker 03

  Excuse me?

• 20:03Speaker 04

  Sheol? Did I hear Sheol? I'm not, I don't know what's going on."

• 20:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house. We are-

• 20:18Speaker 04

  I've heard the construction.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, you heard the construction too. We're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this, because we, I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these, these improvements to the house, but we had to pay off our old car and that took actual planning, which you know I hate. And so I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances. And we had to set dates and we had to create a budget and it was so satisfying to actually make a plan. And then even though it took some discipline and

• 21:04Speaker 03

  there were some bumps in the road, we actually succeeded and were able to pay off a car, got a brand new car. And it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.

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• 23:35Speaker 03

  And as soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So Korah is evidently not coming out of his tent. Deathan and Abiram come out of their tents. And now the earth swallows up Korah, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. But notice who is not said to be swallowed up? Who's, who's not said to be swallowed up here?

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Well, it doesn't say Deathan and Abiram.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  It also doesn't say Korah was swallowed up. It says-

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Oh, it says everyone who belonged to Korah.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the, so we have Deathan and Abiram, and it says, "The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods," which seems like it might be a secondary addition?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Because Deathan and Abiram are the they, is their households. But then it says, "Everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods." So it's like, well, we gotta throw all of Korah's stuff into the mix, but not Korah. So they, with all that belonged to them, went down alive into Sheol, the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Here's the panic. All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, "The earth will swallow us too." And then, yeah, so-

• 25:09Speaker 04

  I think it's fair to be afraid in that moment. I think that that is a, that is a reasonable response to seeing-

• 25:15Speaker 03

  That is a rational fear, yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  Just gulp up a couple, a whole bunch of families.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  And then they're, they're, they're all scattering. And verse 35 says, "And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense." So first, we're gonna, we're gonna eat up all these guys, and then the Lord's just gonna zap everybody else. Fire from Adonai. Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Tell Eliezer, son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censors out of the blaze, then scatter the fire far and wide, for the censors of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord, and they became holy.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  Thus they shall be assigned to the Israelites."

• 26:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's so weird. I'm assuming that this was an ideology for how their, how the altar got covered in metal.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does. It does seem like an episode of Bob's Burgers where they were like, how did this happen? And then we've got this weird mashup of some movie from the 1980s and this, this thing that we have here. But-

• 26:35Speaker 04

  I mean, we, we just glossed right over the fact that the 250 dudes just got burned.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Like, this is crazy. And then, and it, and it came to pass that the mother of dragons did emerge, had her own censer.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  And she was naked. But, but here's a weird thing. Numbers 26, 10. Let me pull up 26, 10. So we're in 16 here. But we have in Numbers 26, "Nine says the descendants of Eliezer, Nemeel, Deathon, and Abiram. These are the same Deathan and Abiram, chosen from the congregation, who rebelled against Moses and Aaron in the congregation of Korah, when they rebelled against the Lord, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with Korah." So here, we have the statement that Korah was taken down to Sheol. "When that congregation died,

• 27:31Speaker 03

  when the fire devoured 250 men, and they became a warning, notwithstanding, the sons of Korah did not die." So we've got, we've got another contradiction, because Numbers 16 says, "Everyone that belonged to Korah died," doesn't explicitly say Korah died. Numbers 26 says, "No, Korah died, but the sons of Korah did not die."

• 27:54Speaker 04

  They were at camp.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  That's a, well, it's a head scratcher, until you notice something about the Book of Psalms. You've got, yes.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  We're bouncing all over the place.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Yes, you've got in the Book of Psalms, a number of Psalms that are dedicated or have Korah's name associated with them, the Korahites. There are 11 Psalms that are Korahite Psalms.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 28:28Speaker 03

  So Psalms, like 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, and 49, and then 84, 85, 87, and 88. So most of them are from Book 2, but let me, let me pull up Psalms 42. I want to see exactly what the Hebrew was, because I, because I thought it was Benet Korah. Yeah, Livne Korach. So that is sons of Korah. So Numbers 16 says, doesn't say anything about Korah. He might have snuck out the back, for all we know, but it says, "Everyone that belonged to Korah, they, they took the dirt

• 29:10Speaker 03

  nap." But then Numbers 26 says, "Korah took the dirt nap, but all of Korah's sons did not." And that, this may be somebody later on trying to be like, well, we got all these Psalms.

• 29:21Speaker 04

  You guys know that there is a whole group, Korahites, right? Kind of have to account for them.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, we gotta do something about that. So, and, and I think this may be a vestige or a product of the fact that when we see names that are similar, we like to just assume they're the same person. And that happens all the time, particularly in apologetics, like the Book of Revelation, written by a dude named John. I bet that's the same John that wrote the Gospel of John. Or that's the same John that's the apostle. Well, nothing indicates that. You just kind of made that up. But, and, and so here, they're probably thinking, ah, that's, that must be the Korah from this story over here, but-

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Didn't they all die? What if we said they didn't all die? Yeah, great idea. Nobody will pick up on that.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, cuz there couldn't be two Coras. That's too confusing.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's just, that's right out. Two Coras is right out. And yeah, and we also might have, because Cora, the Cora Heights are another Levite strand, Levite family, there might have been people who were ministering in their priestly functions, who were of the Aronide clan that were like, yeah, this is a, this is a Cora height altar cover. Well, why aren't, why aren't Cora Heights ministering? Well, let me tell you a story about these Cora Heights, including On, but forget about On.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  On's not relevant to the rest of the story. Yeah, so, so it's ritual objects that are, that, they're probably just accounting for why these ritual objects are here that had some kind of association with a Levitical group that's no longer operating. Maybe that's what's going on.

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, okay, so they took the censors and they pounded them and they made them into a covering for the altar. As a reminder, according to verse 40, "To the Israelites, that no outsider who is not of the descendants of Aaron shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Cora and his congregation, just as the Lord had said to him through Moses." Now, that, to me, all of that, the burning of the dudes, the swallowing of, by the earth of the people and stuff, you would think that that would be just absolutely sufficient

• 32:00Speaker 04

  to get the point across. I don't even see the need for the stick trick in the next chapter.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:07Speaker 04

  It doesn't make any sense that we need anything more. But verse 41 says, "On the next day." It's not like 10 years later, they forgot. And they were like, "On the next day." So what happens?

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Well, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and Aaron, saying, "You have killed the people of the Lord." So it's not like they forgot this happened. They remember this happened. They're just like, "We're not gonna, we're not gonna stand for this."

• 32:37Speaker 04

  You can't, you can't just kill everybody.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  And, and, and by the way, it's Moses and Aaron that did this, not God, apparently.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  Yes, and you, you can't just kill all these people just because they challenged your authority? I challenge your authority.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  What do you think's gonna happen to you? Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting. I would not go if, if they were like, hey, everybody, Moses wants us at the front of the tent of meeting. I'd have been like, mm, no.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  You tell me what they said. I'll be over here.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Get away from this congregation so that I may consume them in a moment." And they fell on their faces. Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer, put fire in it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the Lord." The plague has begun, so.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that's, and this one, this isn't COVID. This is a very fast plague, because it is literally taking people as we speak. Like Aaron grabs his censer and runs out into the middle of the assembly, and it's literally happening. And he's like, "Ah, you guys, get over here. Come here, let me censor at you." And then, I don't, and I don't know what he does. He put on the incense and made atonement for the people. I don't know, like, what that ends up looking like.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  Well, it seems like that should, should be a specific kind of sacrifice, a specific offering, but it doesn't really tell us exactly what's going on here. So, but yeah, so he does that and then stands between them. And, yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  This is when it gets, like, it gets very Walking Dead or something, cuz everybody's suddenly infected. And it's just like, the infection's just moving through the crowd at rapid speed. And he, and so he stands between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I'd like to see a dramatization of this, a movie where Moses falls on his face and is like, "Aaron, get the censer."

• 34:57Speaker 04

  You gotta get out there, man.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Plague has begun, and he comes out and he's just disoriented, and there are zombies over here, and there are healthy people over here, and he's gotta run out in between them.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  People dropping like flies. Yeah, it's just crazy.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  And then those, it says 14,700 died.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  14,000, almost 15,000 people died from this plague. That is, that's not a small number. And why were they all standing together? That's so big.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and, and you know, Aaron cannot really, one man can't really stand in between.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  14,000.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Roughly, well, no, 14,000 on one side.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  So almost 30,000 people, and Aaron's like, "No, get over here. No, no, I, my hands won't go any wider." Like, he's, like, you can't hear. At some point, you're like, "What's that guy doing? I can't hear him. He's too far away."

• 35:55Speaker 04

  Oh, did you just die? Why did you just die?

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, I'm supposed to move over? Yeah, it's, it is, somebody has a very vivid imagination here. And then, when the plague stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting. That's, that's kind of, that's the, everything happens at the entrance of the tent of meeting. That's where the, the bad news comes. Again, if I were in that congregation, you would never see me at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  No.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  I would be standing far away.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  Nor, again, I just, I will reiterate, the next chapter doesn't need to happen if I'm anywhere near this.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  Like, yeah, yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  Like, like, it's been decided. We don't, the stick trick is cute and all, but we don't need it cuz 14,000 of us died and Aaron saved the rest of us. So we're good. I think we're good.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  So it's like, look, we've had, in three days, we've had 250 people either swallowed by the earth or consumed by fire. And then the next day, we all got zombified, and 14,700 people died. And now we're playing with sticks? It just, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

• 37:10Speaker 04

  It's an anticlimax, if we're being honest. That's a, that's a big come down.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and every time Moses says, "So here's the way it is," the people all gotta be like, "Ah, cuz you say so?" And it's like, have you not paid attention? Are you not entertained?

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Where were you for all of the things? Yeah, cuz, yeah, all right.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  I think, yeah, it is a mess. That's good for Numbers 16. That's a wrap for Numbers 16 for now, I think. So let's move on to taking issue.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  So our little buddy Joel Webbin, he's a, he's a Christian nationalist.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  That he is.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  Overtly, that is, that is a self-applied title for him.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Christianity is a big deal for him, and he feels he has a very strong sense of what Christianity is and what it should do, what, what the church believes and should believe. This is the same guy who, in clips I've seen recently, has said things like, women shouldn't be allowed to vote. And, and also, women.

• 38:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's got a lot to say about women, not a fan. Uh, well, or he's a fan of women as long as they whoosh, just a shh.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  Please be quiet, uh, is his, his main thing for women. They shouldn't be allowed to speak in public forums or be politicians or any of that sort of stuff.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  But the clip-

• 38:55Speaker 03

  And he even said that, uh, when women got the vote, that was a vote stolen from him as a man.

• 39:00Speaker 04

  That's right. That's right. He, uh, he feels like his vote was diluted by half or something like that.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  Uh, and he's also claimed that his wife, uh, dutifully votes as he instructs her to do. But, uh, he's not in the booth with her. We don't know what she's doing. Anywho, uh, Joel, uh, that's not what we're talking about this time. This time Joel had a, an interesting thing to say. Do you wanna, do you wanna read us some of-

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  So his clips?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  He, he has a, uh, this right response ministry and he does, I don't know if they're podcasts or just shows or whatever, but he records himself saying inflammatory things so he can get attention.

• 39:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. And we're giving him that.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  But, uh, there, there's about a 60 something second clip of him saying the following. Uh, if we ever come to a point where the state is not actually able to meet the physical needs of those who are impoverished in our society today, then the church will be up against a Herculean task. And right off the bat, I just want to point out, this would seem to acknowledge that taking care of the poor is something the church is not up to.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  Not equipped for.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  Not equipped for. And this seems to recognize that that is the appropriate purview of the state.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Which conflicts with so many Christian nationalists' arguments about how, no, Jesus was only talking about individual responsibility to take care of the poor. When it comes to state responsibility, that's not on, uh, that's on the church, that's not on the government.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  And they talk about that constantly, that it is the church, that, that, yeah, don't use my tax dollars to take care of the poor and, and the needy and the sick or whatever. Use, that, that's the church's job.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. So tithing dollars are supposed to do it? They're not doing it.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, and the second you say, okay, then church do it. He says, well, they can't. Uh, so, so anyway, go on with, with what he, what he has to say.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  But one thing that the church has to do is tell modern feminist pagan women, no. They have to say no. So if there's a woman who is elderly, but she chose by her own volition because she hates the patriarchy and she hates Christ, she hates traditional marriage, all these different things. She's 65 years old with blue or purple hair. She has no children. Not because she couldn't conceive, but because she was on SSRIs and birth control her entire life of her own volition. If that time ever comes and she is unemployable and she made bad financial decisions, she's fallen on hard times. Our bloated welfare state is no longer operational, then the church needs to be able to look at her and say,

• 41:53Speaker 03

  you starve. You starve. Glory be to God. You starve.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Which is the worst possible version of free at last, free at last. Great God, oh, thank God almighty, I'm free at last. Uh, yikes. Just the scariest, the weird, like, first of all, I like that he has painted this picture of a quote elderly, look, people, I don't know how young Joel Webbin is. He's younger than I am, but 65 is not elderly. Can we agree that if she's 65, she is not elderly? But he, but this 65 year old, purple haired lady, uh, who has no kids,

• 42:43Speaker 04

  which is apparently a huge, hugely offensive thing to him.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Uh, he's not okay with that at all.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  He is willing to let her starve.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Which is, which is bizarre, cause like, he never talks about men in this way.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  No.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  It's always got, because he, and, and he starts it off by, by targeting feminist pagan women. And when, when he says pagan, he doesn't mean like Wicca women. He doesn't, he doesn't mean-

• 43:13Speaker 04

  You're right.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Actual pagans. He means atheists, agnostics, the nuns, people who are just not interested in his brand of Christianity.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm guessing that he would apply the word pagan to a Hindu or a Buddhist or whatever.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Um, but it's, it's just somebody who's not his brand of Christianity, because if you're not doing it right, then you're doing it pagan. Um, because everything is religion and therefore anything that is not my Christianity is, is pagan. But yeah, uh, this is like, you can just tell he has this seething hatred for, for women who have blue or purple hair and who are, who are childless, uh, because they have chosen to be childless and who are not married and, and all of this stuff. Like nothing, nothing gets under his skin more than a woman with agency.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Uh, like that just, that will not, this aggression will not stand in Joel Webbin's, uh, world.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  What's amazing to me is that he, like, I mean, we're gonna get to this, you're on your way to this, but the fact that he is willing to say this, he, you know, he calls up the image of the least palatable human he can imagine.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 04

  I'm amazed he didn't make her trans or whatever, but he calls up the, this image of this woman for whom he has nothing but disdain. But then he makes an argument that can, that must therefore then be applied to a bunch of other groups of people for whom he has less and less disdain. And he has set up a system where he has to draw a line somewhere.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cause who, who, like, what color, if, if she's got dark hair and she's only in her 40s?

• 45:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:07Speaker 03

  And she's been on SSRIs and birth control and is childless, does she starve? If it's a dude, does he starve? Like, uh, where do you draw the line?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  But she did have kids.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. She's a single mother, maybe.

• 45:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Uh, there's, and yeah, it is ridiculous, but the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear this is the parable of the good Samaritan.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  And the, the, the story of, you know, the, Jesus says, the two great commandments, love God and love your neighbor. And then the lawyer sneers, who is my neighbor? And, and Jesus doesn't say, everybody's your neighbor, but Jesus says, let me tell you this story about a Samaritan who went out of his way to help an Israelite who had fallen on hard times and who was treating someone like a neighbor. Was it the, the Levite and the others who walked by on the other side of the road?

• 46:05Speaker 04

  Was it Joel Webbin who said ick and crossed the street?

• 46:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Not my monkeys, not my circus. Uh, or is it the Samaritan, the person you hate? And that, and it was very specific, the reason that Jesus chose to talk about the Samaritan, according to the narrative, and that's because the Samaritans were hated. They were loathed by the, the folks of that day, at least within the universe that the author of the gospels is, is constructing. And so like, if you wanted Joel to paint his picture of his Samaritan, it would be a 65 year old, blue haired, single lady.

• 46:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Like that, that, if Jesus came down and, and was like, Joel, dude, let me tell you a story about a 65 year old, blue haired lady who didn't have any kids and fell on hard times. Like that's the Samaritan. And, and Joel is like, man, they get to starve. Glory to God, they're gonna starve.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  And this, and so this flagrantly violates the, the, the entire reason for the parable of the good Samaritan. Like Jesus is like, love your neighbor. And Joel Webbin's like, I hope they starve.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:20Speaker 03

  He's, he's, I don't care who my neighbor is, I just hope they starve, cause no, I'm not doing that.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  It's not my fault that she fell on, that she made bad financial decisions and fell on hard times.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  Which is the exact same way that the people who walked by the injured Israelite rationalized away why they were not gonna-

• 47:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Uh, do it too.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's, it's a kind of, it's pretty astounding. Uh, the, the Christian nationalist ethic has really become-

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Only us, only us.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, to the exclusion of some of the central themes of the New Testament. And, and I was thinking about this, it's really an interesting, it's, it's another display of credibility enhancing displays. Because what you're doing is you're actually taking something that is a central identity marker and you're saying, I care so much about us that I'm going to violate one of our central identity markers in the interest of us.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  So it's a way to, it's going above and beyond saying the, the identity markers are central and I'm, I'm willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am. He's saying, I'm willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am to the identity politics that I'm willing to entirely sever one of the central identity markers and throw it out the window. That's how much I care about our identity over and against the foundation of the identity, which is supposed to be following Jesus, who explicitly said, you're supposed to love everybody.

• 49:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, although I will say, so I thought to myself, I, I want to try to steel man his argument. I want to try to figure out if I could construct a biblical argument that agrees with Joel Webb.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  I didn't do a great job. I gotta say, it's hard.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 04

  I found some stuff like, for instance, Galatians 6, 10 says, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 49:38Speaker 04

  So to me that, you know, that was the clearest one where it was just like, we prioritize our own people.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Sort of thing.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:47Speaker 04

  But it, it does start with the good of all. Like, that's what it starts with. And presumably, blue haired old ladies count in all.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, and this is, and you know, you, you kind of have to go to the Hebrew Bible if you want to try to find examples of, or try to find rationalizations for ignoring certain folks. Unfortunately, even there, you're going to get excoriated by the loudest voices. Because we've talked about the, the prophetic critique many times in the past. And this is kind of a perfect example of the prophetic critique, which is saying, I hate your new moons and your Sabbaths. I, I do not delight in the blood of, of bulls and all this stuff.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Uh, and, and the whole idea is when you put your piety on display, but are neglecting the poor and the needy and the orphan and the widow and the oppressed and the foreigner, your demonstration of piety becomes sinful and I hate it.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  And this is a textbook example. And he even includes, you starve, glory to God, you starve.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  It's like, he's like, what would be the best way for me to put on, put on display the fact that I'm going to oppress the poor and the needy while also publicly putting my piety on display so other people can take note of how pious I am.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 03

  Like I, it's, it is a, uh, it is the antithesis, it's, yeah, the, the antithesis of, yeah, the antithesis of the prophetic critique sandwich. Like you have, you have just put it on a plate and are serving it up. This is what that's talking about.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Um, because the-

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Even if she, as he put it, hates Christ, which, by the way, no.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  It's always his prerogative to declare that.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  And like, oh, I guarantee you, he thinks I hate Christ.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. There's, yeah, about half of the believers in, in our country, he believes hates, hate Christ.

• 52:01Speaker 03

  Right, and I'm a pagan, surely.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't even get into what I am. I'm, I think, I think he might see me as a 65 year old, purple haired lady. I'm not sure. But, but yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, there's something, even, you know, what if she was a member of the church? But she was liberal. And she, and, and you know, and she disagreed with his theology and she disagreed with his, but she believed in Jesus. Well, where is his line being drawn? Who gets, who gets to get food and who doesn't?

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  And also, does he not see that? He must see it. He must be like, obviously, a lot of this is to get clicks. It's not, it's not about a theology. It's about, it's about making money online or something. But like, everyone should know that if you say, you starve, to anyone ever, for any reason, you're a monster.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 04

  Like, there's just no way around that. There's no way that, that you can look at another human who's asking, you know, who's, asking for food and, and then say, nope, not you.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and to even make a point of it. Like, I, I would like to put my foot down on the fact that I would like these people to starve. I, cause like this, this is, this is kind of mental masturbation for, for Joel, I'm sure, to be like, ooh, I want to watch her starve.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Cause he's just coming out and just imagining this scenario where he gets to repeat three times, you starve, you starve, you starve, to this hypothetical, this persona that obviously just engenders just a boundless loathing, uh, in, in his heart, which is, um, which is really just, it's unfathomable for, for someone who, who wants to get the best out of what's in the Bible and, and actually try to listen to, again, the voices that are loudest, both in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament. The loudest voices are the ones that cry for justice. Then this is not justice, this is vengeance.

• 54:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  This is about getting yours and seeing other people suffer because they disagree with you about the right way to live their life.

• 54:38Speaker 04

  And it can't be about justice because he never claims that this woman did anything bad.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  He never claims that there's any, other than like not having children, there's no offense here. There's no, there's, she has committed no sin. She has committed no crimes.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  She is just, uh, she's, she's just tried to treat her depression and, and also tried to make sure that she doesn't have kids that she doesn't want, which, can I just say? If you don't want kids, please don't have kids. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. Uh, it's, it's bad for everybody when people do that. Um, getting back to the, to the steel manning of his argument, I did want to point out that, uh, 1 Timothy does have a, an actual church welfare policy that, uh, that is exclusionary. He get, it gets into a whole thing about widows and who is and isn't going to count as a widow.

• 55:40Speaker 04

  I thought that was interesting.

• 55:41Speaker 03

  Well, you're, you're talking about 310, right?

• 55:44Speaker 04

  Uh, this is, no, this is 1 Timothy 5, I think. Uh, verse 16 says, let, let the church not be burdened so that it can assist those who are real widows.

• 56:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, widows on the list. Oh yeah, that, now.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  It's, it's just got some, uh, some element, like, you know, young widows don't count. You gotta make room for the, for the old widows.

• 56:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  Who are real widows.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, we, we talked about this, this passage. I was, I was thinking of something else. I was, um, it's not 1 Timothy 310, but I was, I was thinking of the, uh, those who, who do not work shall not eat.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Oh, right.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Passage, which, which we've also talked about before, which is actually talking about, likely is, is talking about people who are suggesting that they are doing service for the church, therefore they shouldn't have to have a day job. Um, they should be able to coast on the, the service to the church. Uh, yeah, you're, you're talking about the, the idea that, uh,

• 56:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  Widows have to be a certain age so that their family's no longer able to take care of them. And then they have to, they're on the registry or the list and-

• 56:57Speaker 04

  Right, and then there does seem to be a hierarchy where it's like, uh, in 1 Timothy 5, 8, uh, there's a whole thing about, uh, if you fail to provide for your own household, uh, then you've denied the faith or whatever. So, so like your, your household is first, your household. So like, that kind of indicates that like, you're only responsible for your people-ish, sort of.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  But then it's like, but come on, like, the rest of the Bible is also there. And also like, you know, just being a human is a thing.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and the, the author also says that if you have widows in your family, you're the first line of defense. You assist them so that the church is not burdened. And this lines up with a lot of, of policies today for Christian congregations and institutions that will say, okay, if you need help, then the first thing you need to do is go ask family. And only if you have none or family cannot help you, then you come to us and we'll see what we can do.

• 58:09Speaker 04

  It does, you know, that you just reminded me of a clip that I saw just today.

• 58:15Speaker 04

  You know, we've talked about Dave Ramsey before on the show and it was a Dave Ramsey clip. He's a financial, he's a Christian financial advisor.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  Well, everybody's a Christian now, whether, whether they were in the past, that's where the money is.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Is advocating for Christian themes.

• 58:33Speaker 04

  It's, which is why I don't have a lot of money.

• 58:37Speaker 04

  But, but he, so he had a caller come in and, you know, the, the person who was posting this clip called it the most boomer moment ever. Apologies to our boomer listeners, but it was basically this woman called in and said, Hey, I have, I have a lot of money and I don't want to give it to my daughters as an inheritance because they went away to school and became socialists. And I don't want to reward them for that. And I just thought to myself, and, and of course, Dave Ramsey laughed and laughed about this and was like, yeah, you don't owe them anything if

• 59:18Speaker 04

  they're going to be like that. You know, you could just say that they have to be responsible stewards of the money and they're not going to be because they believe in giving it away and a free ride and all of this stuff. And it was just, I just feel like there's this weird thread among conservative Christians of what's mine is mine, that, that feels completely counter to what I read when I read Jesus, when I read.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 04

  It's, it's so weird.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, as, as we've seen, we, we have a lot of folks who will say, oh, when it says, the meek shall inherit the earth, that means you have to be an absolute monster, but just restrain yourself.

• 1:00:09Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Until, until you get to let the monster out. Yeah, that's, there's, there's so many attempts on the part of phenomenally selfish people to try to overturn what's going on most likely in these passages, because really their concern is looking out for themselves and they see things like Christianity as a means to an end, rather than something that's supposed to change them in ways they don't like, in ways that are not as helpful for them. And there's an argument that I, I'm sure you've seen it at some point where people will say, if, if Christianity were man-made, why does it go against all of man's desires? It's like, we, we see Christianity being leveraged precisely to slake man's desires.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Every single day. So no, that, that argument does not work. And it's, it's a, it's a very easy little flip to switch, split, flip. I'm going to get this one of these days, switch to flip, to just say, oh, well, maybe meek actually means you're an utter monster. You just have control of it. All right, there we go. Now I'm into it. I'm digging it.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. Thank goodness I figured out what that, what, what that actually means.

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  Yes. So it actually doesn't.

• 1:01:26Speaker 04

  Jordan Peterson with no training in, in biblical Greek.

• 1:01:31Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  Goodness, I figured that out.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, suddenly Christianity becomes a lot less problematic for me, requires much less of me and allows me to be the same person that I arrived at Christianity as. So, yeah, there's an awful lot of rationalizing all of that kind of stuff. And, and Joel here is just rationalizing his own misogyny, profound, profound misogyny.

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  This, this is a small man thinking small thoughts and saying small words to try to make himself feel bigger.

• 1:02:01Speaker 04

  Well, I, look, you mentioned the misogyny. I will just say, I can steel man his misogyny arguments way better than I can steel man this argument, the, the deny people food argument. I, I feel like he's got a case, a biblical case for the misogyny.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Yes, the Bible is, is highly misogynist. So yeah, you can, you can construct a case that is far more plausible for that than you can for the notion that you should be able to guffaw in the face of needy people.

• 1:02:35Speaker 04

  Of a starving old woman.

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  Yes. Saying you starve, glory to God, you starve.

• 1:02:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's, there's no case to make for that from the Bible. That's something that relies on the, the just misanthropy of Christian nationalism, which is, yeah, more and more, I'm going to get mine and I want to see you get yours and in the bad way.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  I want to watch, I want to revel in.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  I want to delight in your pain and your suffering. Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 04

  Well, there you go. I mean, pick your poison. If there's one thing we've learned, it's that all religions can be sort of used in the way that you wish to use it. So I guess you can choose the Joel Webb in way, I highly, we, we, I think it is, I think it's the official policy of this podcast that, no, no, don't, don't do that.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  Don't do that. Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 04

  We, we, we feed the starving here.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  All right, friends. Well, thank you so much for joining us. That's it. If you would like to become a part of keeping this show rocking and rolling, you can either become a, a member on YouTube, or you can go to our Patreon at patreon.com/dataoverdogma and join up there. You'll get early ad-free versions of every episode as well as you'll get the patrons only content if you sign up at the right, at the right level. And that patrons only content happens every week. You can ask us questions and we have to answer it. We cannot back out.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  So please, please do that if you can. If you can't, just like or subscribe or send us, send, you know, send this to someone that you think would find it interesting. And we appreciate all of that stuff. Thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing the show. Thanks to Sam Holden for being our right hand dude. And thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Bye, everybody.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

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