MURDERED: Nori Amaya

On Halloween night in 2009, 38-year-old D. C. restaurateur and salsa queen Nori Amaya went out dancing, came home alone, and was found strangled in her bed two days later. Police have DNA and hours of surveillance footage, but in a building full of people in Halloween masks, they've never been able to identify her killer. Sixteen years later, the key to solving this case could be a secret someone in Nori's world is still keeping, or something that went missing from her apartment the night she died.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp is one of the world's leading online therapy services. Now, insurance options may be available nationwide with average copays of just $23 per session for eligible members. But cost isn't the only thing holding people back. Most of us weren't taught stress management. Therapy gives you tools to keep stress from building. BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plans, making it easy to get started with low-cost sessions. Don't have eligible insurance? Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/crimejunkie. Cost and coverage may vary. Discount cannot be combined with insurance.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  And I'm Brett.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  And the story I have for you today about the 2009 murder of a Washington DC salsa queen is one that haunts me. At first, investigators thought this might be an easy case to close. They have surveillance footage, a clear recounting of the victim's final steps. But there is one huge problem. It was Halloween. The clubs were packed and the streets were full of people in masks and costumes. So even on camera, police can't always tell who they're looking at. Was that a coincidence? Or was it part of a careful plan to hide in plain sight? It seems like this killer knew what he was doing.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  He took things from the crime scene that might have led back to him. But in doing so, he actually might have left the biggest clue. This is something that has never been reported before, and me and our reporting team went deep on this one and what this clue might mean. And we think we could be just one tip away from solving this one. So Crime Junkies, listen close and make sure you share this episode with a friend, especially any friends that you have in the DC area. This is the story of Noria Maya.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Our story begins first thing Monday morning, November 2, 2009. Carlos Amaya is getting to work to begin a week that is already off to a rough start. So Carlos is the chef and co-owner of a popular Italian restaurant in Washington DC, which he runs with his sister. And even though he just hosted this big private party the night before, he is at the restaurant bright and early on just a couple of hours of sleep to fire up the wood burning oven and get started on a massive catering order for something like 170 people. But when he calls the client to let them know that he's going to be there with the order around 10 a.m., the client is like, no, no, no. Your sister never confirmed the order. So we tried to call her and tell her that it was canceled.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Oh, I'd be so pissed at my sister.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Carlos was. His 38-year-old sister, Noria Maya, is the other half to the business. He's the chef. She works like front of house on the customer side of things. And it's like a good arrangement because she's the people person of the two siblings. So normally, it works out, but something has been up with her the last couple of days. The day before, Nori didn't show up to help with the private party like she was supposed to. Carlos kind of blew that one off because he knows that she had been going through a breakup and he was trying to like cut her a little bit of slack. But now they're like losing business and he is over it. He wants to call her and like read her the riot act. The problem is, he can't because her phone is with him.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  You see, two nights ago, what would have been Saturday, that was Halloween. And Nori had apparently left her phone in a cab that she took home that night, or technically it would have been like early Sunday morning. The cabbie found the phone and at some point called Nori's mom, who sent Carlos to go meet the cabbie and pick it up.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Okay, so why is Carlos still holding on to it, though?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Well, because he thought he was going to be seeing her at work that same day. He was just going to like give it to her then, but she didn't show. And remember, it's like 2009. Like, we actually, at that time, all knew how to live without our phones for a day back then, especially Nori, because apparently she was prone to losing her phone maybe more than most. So unable to call her, Carlos decides to go by Nori's apartment because he's got the time now that he doesn't have to like do this, you know, big 170% catering order. So when he gets to her complex, like 10 minutes away, he signs in at the front desk before going to her unit on the 11th floor. He knocks, he checks the door, but it's locked. So he crouches down and even looks through the mail slot.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  And he can see inside, but the lights are off, so the apartment is completely dark. And so Carlos is thinking like, okay, you know what? Nori is clearly going through it with this breakup. She's probably still asleep, or maybe she just doesn't want to talk to anyone right now. So he decides to give her a little bit more space. If she's not at the restaurant by the dinner shift, then he'll take more drastic measures to like shake her out of it. And guess what?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  She doesn't show up.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  By closing time on Monday, Carlos's frustration is turning into fear. He has made some calls. Nobody in their family, including their mom, who normally talks to Nori daily, has heard from her. So that night, Carlos and his younger sister, Liz, they go to Nori's building together. And they're not just knocking at this point. They told us this time, they asked the security guard to unlock Nori's door. And it's the guard who leads the way into her living room. Everything is still dark, except for a bathroom light that's on. So Liz flips on the light switch. They see Nori's Halloween costume laying on the couch, this like black dress and a feathered Venetian-style mask, but no Nori. And nothing seems to be out of place.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  So Carlos calls out to her, like to give her the chance to come out or get decent before he just like opens her bedroom door. Now, the room is dark when he finally goes in, but he can tell that Nori is in her bed, partially covered by a comforter. And then the rest happens quickly. He turns on the light, he sees Nori's hair and one of her hands peeking out from under the covers. And when he gets closer, he notices marks around her neck. So Carlos pulls the comforter back and his sister is blue. She's only in her black underwear, so he can see all of the bruises all over her body. But there's something in him, like he cannot stop calling out her name, like begging her to just like get up, even though like looking at her, you and I would know that's not-

• 6:49Speaker 00

  Not computing for him.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  He's in shock. He's just like desperate to get some kind of reaction out of her. So he even like hits her, trying to prove to himself that what he's seeing isn't real because his mind cannot accept that she's gone. And that's when Liz walks into the room. And she reaches out to touch Nori, but her skin is so cold that Liz literally jumps back. She and Carlos cling to each other and just like drop to the floor while the security guard calls 911. By 9:11 p.m., the apartment is full of DC Metro Police Officers. The detective who is assigned to the case is Tony Patterson. Now, lucky for us, Detective Patterson is retired now, so he was able to talk to us for this episode.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  I actually don't know if we could have done it without him because DC Metro Police Department denied our FOIA. And while the new MPD detective assigned to the case did talk to us, like he didn't go into much depth with us. Still, he gave us some information, verified some details, so like grateful, but much of what we've come to learn about this case will be from Detective Patterson's memory. But going back to that night, inside Nori's apartment. By that point, Detective Patterson's been with MPD for decades. A lot of that time was spent in homicide, so he knows what he's looking for when he gets onto a homicide scene. And here, we've got locked door, no signs of forced entry, the apartment isn't ransacked. In fact, nothing valuable seems to be missing.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Nori's purse is still on the couch. So this wasn't a robbery gone wrong. This looks like somebody came here for Nori with the goal of either sexually assaulting her, killing her, or both. It was a 1/8 inch ligature of some kind that ultimately was used to strangle and kill her. But the autopsy shows that she fought back. There were injuries around her mouth and her chin, including a laceration inside her lower lip. There is a hemorrhage under the back of her scalp, bruising across her upper right chest and both breasts, and lots of bruises and abrasions on her arms, right hand and right leg.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Detective Patterson remembers that bruising on her arms. It made him think that someone may have like pinned her down on the bed while she fought back. And there's also lacerations and bruising to Nori's genital area. And one of the few details we did get from the new investigator is that they believe Nori was sexually assaulted. But whoever assaulted and strangled her was calculated and at least had a basic understanding of forensics, because there was no semen found during the autopsy and no nail clippings that produced anything useful, because the fingernails that Nori always kept long had been cut all the way down.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  And Brett, the killer had to have taken the fingernails with them because there weren't any in her apartment.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  I mean, I have so many questions, but like, did the killer bring their own clippers? Did they have to use, like, what was there hers?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  The current detective told us that they don't know what her nails were cut with. They also don't know what she was strangled with. Like, it could have been a cord of some kind. I know they tested a USB cord in her room, but that didn't have any of her DNA on it. So whatever that was, he may have brought it or found it, but either way, he probably took that with him, too.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  And with all this, like, caution, this person either watches, like, a lot of CSI or they've done this before.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  I mean, my own opinion, I don't think they were some kind of, like, brilliant mastermind. Like, I think they knew about as much as the general public, like you're saying, from, like, CSI or something. Like, they're gonna know that police get DNA from semen, from nail clippings, like, the end. Otherwise, I think this killer would have taken more precautions because the killer didn't get rid of all of the physical evidence. During the autopsy, unidentified male DNA was collected from two areas of Nori's body. And I know they got touch DNA from either her chest or her breast area.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Like, actual touch DNA? Or could it have come from, like, saliva?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  So the autopsy report doesn't show any of the results from the testing. It just shows me what areas they swabbed. They should be able to tell if saliva was present or not. I've seen that in other cases. No one from MPD could or would provide us the details. They just said that it was touch DNA. But Carlos is pretty dialed into the investigation, Nori's brother, and he said that he remembers being told that it was, like, true touch DNA, like, from skin to skin, like, contact kind of thing. Now, one would assume that would be, like, a hand, but if it was, that's wild to me because the police didn't find any fingerprints on her body or apartment that they believe were from the killer.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  But, you know, who needs prints when you have their DNA, right? Well, it's only good if we can find someone to compare it to because even though this sample was good enough to be put into CODIS, there were no matches in the system. So who could have been in Nori's apartment and when? The autopsy doesn't include a time of death window. So that's one of the first mysteries that Detective Patterson has to solve. Like, before you can ever ask somebody for an alibi, you need to know, like, what your critical window of time is in the investigation. Well, lucky for him, Nori's apartment building has decent security. It is one of the biggest apartment complexes in DC. It is 12 floors and more than 1,100 units.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  That's basically a small city.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you live there, you need a key card to swipe into the main entrances. The front desk is staffed around the clock and visitors are supposed to sign in. There are also at least six cameras in the lobby and more cameras around the building and garage. So of course Detective Patterson thinks that all of that surveillance is gonna just hand him Nori's killer on a silver platter. He goes right to the night of Halloween when he's looking at this footage. That is the last time that anyone says they saw or spoke to Nori. That's the night that she left her phone in the cab. So he scrubs through Saturday into the early morning hours of Sunday, and he spots her coming into the building alone around 2:30 a.m.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  They know it's her because she's got on a black dress and she's holding the mask that they found on her couch. But guess what?

• 13:29Speaker 00

  It's Halloween and everyone is wearing costumes.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Everyone. All weekend, people are coming and going in masks and wigs and costumes. So even if someone came through the front and was captured, we might not even have their face. And that's if they came through the front. Carlos told us at the time there were other ways to get into the building, like near the parking areas, that weren't covered by cameras at all. And Nori's floor didn't have any cameras either. So is the killer on film? I think the answer is yes and no. No, they're probably not showing their face in the building security footage.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  But yes, I think their image could have been captured on film, actually by Nori herself. Because as the police start working backwards, tracing Nori's movements before she got to her apartment building, they realize that she had something else with her that night, a small, red, digital camera. But they never found a small, red, digital camera anywhere in her apartment, which means the killer may have taken something from Nori after all.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by Ollie. The holidays are all about spending quality time with loved ones, and your dog is no exception. Ollie just launched their brand-new Holiday Feast, a limited-edition recipe made with 100% human-grade turkey, cranberries, sweet potatoes, and butternut squash. It's a delicious, festive way to give your pup a seat at the holiday table. Plus, Ollie partnered with Baccarat to give away 10 custom-engraved Ollie Day Crystal Dog Balls. Become an Ollie member and order the Holiday Feast by November 3rd for a chance to win. Stock is limited, so be sure to order your Holiday Feast before it runs out. Ollie has been amazing for our dog, Bertie. She has definitely had an extra boost of energy, and we've been able to feel confident in the real wholesome food she's eating. Stock is limited, so secure your Holiday Feast while you can.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Head to ollie.com/crimejunkie and use code CRIMEJUNKIE to get 70% off your pup's Holiday Feast today. And remember to order by November 3rd. That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash crime junkie and enter code CRIMEJUNKIE to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. No purchase necessary. Terms and conditions apply. See official rules at cramerules.com/dogball for how to enter, price details, and restrictions.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Nori's family tells Detective Patterson that she had a small, red, digital camera that she took everywhere.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  I mean, it's 2009. We all did.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  My little Sony Cyber Shot went everywhere with me.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Mine was blue.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And that is actually what her family thinks they remember her having, a red Sony Cyber Shot. Detective Patterson told us that he knows she had it out with her that night. He found video proof of it because he traced her movements that night, and he found out that she had spent Halloween at a club, like salsa dancing with friends. And salsa dancing was, like, her big thing. It became part of her recovery after she went through some health issues when she was younger, and she got so good at it that she even competed locally. She knows basically every salsa club in DC, and people even called her the salsa queen. Now, this club that she was at, police say there were no standout incidents that happened while she's out dancing, no big fights or anything that gets, like, caught on surveillance cameras that they look at.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  But there was drama. So remember how I said that Nori was going through a breakup?

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  So the club was owned by the guy she was breaking up with.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  Breaking is active, so she was ending things.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Well, yes, kind of, more complicated than that, which I'll get into. But she was planning to end it that night. So let me give you a little bit of backstory, and then I'm gonna jump back into the timeline. Detective Patterson learns from Nori's family and friends that for a few months before she was murdered, she was involved with the club's owner, this guy named Gustavo. Gustavo didn't respond to our outreach, so his perspective comes from a 2010 interview that he gave to The Washington Post about Nori's murder. But he said that he and Nori had a lot in common. I mean, both were immigrants from Latin America who had made, like, the DC area home. Nori's family came to the US from El Salvador when she was younger, and Gustavo came to DC from Argentina.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  And both had built their lives around the restaurant business. Nori took over the Italian restaurant with Carlos, and Gustavo opened his Latin American club. So they both knew what it was like to build something of their own here, the same long hours, the same stressors, same business problems, and the same passion. And he said they were exactly alike. But there was a major part of Gustavo's life that Nori didn't know about when they first started seeing each other. He was married. And Nori only found out after she was already in deep.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  People close to Nori told us that after Nori confronted Gustavo, he told her that the marriage was basically over, but getting divorced could cost him everything. The restaurant, his money, all of it. So he apparently told her that like, you know, him and his wife being together, that was just like a financial arrangement. Now, whether that was true or not, Nori kept seeing Gustavo. But Carlos says that over time, it was clear to her that Gustavo didn't want to build a future with her, at least not the kind that she wanted. I mean, Nori wanted to get married and have kids, and she was tired of feeling like she was stuck in the middle of someone else's marriage. Now Gustavo said in that 2010 interview that he felt like things were moving fast as the relationship got more serious,

• 19:24Speaker 01

  like a little too fast. And know who else might not have liked how fast things were moving? Gustavo's wife.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Carlos said that about two weeks before Nori's murder, the main phone rang at their restaurant. Carlos picked it up, and the woman on the other end asked to speak with Nori and said that she was Gustavo's wife. So Carlos says he takes down her name and phone number on the restaurant's like reservation clipboard, and he gave that message to his sister. He doesn't know if Nori called this woman back or what happened, but clearly like Kat was out of the bag.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And if the two women were comparing notes, Nori might have realized that she was getting worked. That's the headspace that she seemed to be in by Halloween. She was at a breaking point. And so normally Nori loved Halloween. Like every year she would make these elaborate costumes and celebrate by going dancing. But that year Carlos says that she was so upset about Gustavo that she didn't even bother to make a costume. He actually made the mask for her that she wore. I guess he found this like old Venetian style mask in their upstairs office. He like took it apart, added some bright feathers, and that's what Nori wore with like a black dress. So, back to Halloween night. That night, it was Nori's turn to get off early

• 20:44Speaker 01

  and Carlos's to close the restaurant. And around 9:30 PM, they sat at the bar to have dinner and share a bottle of their favorite wine together. And Carlos says that over dinner, Nori started crying about Gustavo. She felt like she was finally done with him, like ready to break up for good. Carlos told her that she deserved better. And then around 10:30 PM, Nori headed out for the night. Her first stop was Gustavo's club, the Roomba Cafe. Like I said, there's video footage from her time there that Detective Patterson reviews. And everything's normal. People were dancing, drinking, moving through the room in costumes and masks. And at one point, he sees Nori sitting at a table

• 21:29Speaker 01

  taking pictures with the small red camera that would later go missing. But here is where the drama starts, though none of it is really like caught on film. Detective Patterson pieces it together through talking with people who were there that night, like Gustavo and Nori's two friends, who I'm gonna call Amanda and David for privacy reasons. Detective Patterson learns that Nori spent at least part of the night around Gustavo. At some point, she asked him to sit with her, but Gustavo said no, he was working. And Gustavo remembered later that Nori seemed sad behind her mask.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  I wonder why.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Right. And Detective Patterson remembers even texts that Nori sent to a friend around this time of the night. She said that she was upset because Gustavo wasn't paying any attention to her. So eventually, she left without saying goodbye to anyone.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  And she left on her own?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so her one friend, David, said that he got pretty drunk, and so someone took him home from the club. And her other friend, who I'm calling Amanda, said that she stayed and partied into the night with Gustavo and his group near Roomba after Nori left, which at first like I thought was kind of weird. Like, why are you staying with your friend's ex that she's like having problems with? But Amanda actually worked at Roomba Cafe before, so she was actually friends-

• 22:38Speaker 00

  This is kind of like her group.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  She was friends with both of them, right?

• 22:41Speaker 00

  But wait, like, did Nori actually break up with Gustavo? Or no?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Well, according, no, no. So according to Gustavo, she did not. Now, Nori doesn't go right home from here when she leaves Roomba Cafe. She never let anything, even a bad night, get in the way of her dancing. So Detective Patterson said that she went to a lounge and then to a club downtown to meet up with her dance partner. But tonight, something was different. She got to the downtown club called Bravo Bravo around 1:45 AM. And her dance partner told Detective Patterson that she wanted to leave almost immediately, looked to him like she was crying under her mask. So within 15 minutes of being there, he walked her outside, helped her into a cab back to her apartment, and watched her leave.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  That is the cab that took her home. We know she gets there by 2:30, and Carlos told us that he remembers police's best guess being that she died sometime in the window of 2:30 AM to 6 AM.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  So there was nothing else on her phone or anything about something happening or like meeting up with someone?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Current investigators would not go into detail about her phone. They just told us that there was nothing in there that had any bearing on her murder. Now Carlos actually used to have her phone. Like after police extracted all the data off of it, they gave it back to him. But of course, like he lost it during a move, which like broke my heart because I would give anything to be able to go through that and like try and piece things together. But the only thing that Carlos really remembered is that Nori called him around midnight that night to like maybe meet up, which may have been, I think, around the time she left Roomba Cafe. But he told her that, you know, he was just at a friend's party. It was like more of a chill hang when she called. And he's like, you know, it's not gonna be worth it for you to come. Which like, of course, he said-

• 24:31Speaker 00

  I can't imagine.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he spent like years wondering, like what would have happened if he told her just to come to that party anyways?

• 24:38Speaker 00

  And how long was she at that like lounge place before she went to the downtown club? Like the timing of it all?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I don't know exactly. I'm sure it is in the case files, but we, like I said, don't have those. And Detective Patterson couldn't remember anymore.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm just trying to like gauge whether something maybe happened there or if she was just like upset by the Gustavo stuff like the whole night.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Because she leaves crying? As far as we know, she was just upset about Gustavo. No one has ever come forward with anything else. I mean, so if someone out there knows something else, like now is your time to shine. But if it really was just the Gustavo stuff, I'm thinking that she was probably like drinking all night. She's in her feels. Like maybe all of those emotions just caught up with her later and overwhelmed her.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  Right. And like everyone else is having a good time around her, stuff like that.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just wanna go home.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  I assume that the police checked Gustavo's alibi, right?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yes. He was one of the first people that they brought in for questioning. I mean, they have Nori's siblings saying, "Look at him." Her friend David was even saying, "Look at him." And David didn't just know Nori. Like Amanda, he also knew Gustavo too. Because apparently, one of his family members said that he picked up shifts at Gustavo's club. So like that probably carried some weight. Well, not only does Gustavo deny killing Nori again and again, he gives Detective Patterson an alibi for the night of Halloween into the morning after. He says he was out with his friends, like Amanda and that group, the whole time. Those friends later backed that up. And after he called it a night, Gustavo says that he went back to his apartment, which is above the club, and just went to sleep.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  I mean, we don't know when she died, though. So I guess like, is that an alibi?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  It's soft, which is why they still collect his DNA. And they ask him about the third person in this love triangle, his wife. Why did she call Nori a couple of weeks before her death? Was she threatening her? And Gustavo's response is surprising. Gustavo said that Nori told him about the phone call, so he confronted his wife about it, but she denied making the call. She denied it again when she talked to the reporter for that Washington Post article. Like herself, she talked to them. But Gustavo said that this call scared him even more because if his wife didn't call Nori, then who did?

• 27:05Speaker 00

  And why would someone pretend to be his wife?

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Well, that would open a whole can of mystery worms and speculation that Detective Patterson thinks aren't necessary. He said, quote, "That was Gustavo's wife," end quote. So it seems like he thinks she did make that call. And he took it seriously enough during the initial investigation to question her, get a verifiable alibi from her, and even get her DNA as well.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  But like, why get hers? I thought like male DNA was found.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yes, but you can never be too sure.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And I mean, like, when you think about it, like one of the things Detective Patterson considered was whether a third person could have been acting on behalf of Gustavo or his wife. I mean, there was someone in particular that Patterson even had in mind back then, this employee at Gustavo's club who lives in the same building as his boss, located above the club. This guy raised eyebrows because not long after Nori's death, Nori's friend David alerted police that this employee just like up and left the country, went to Argentina. The employee said that it was for a family funeral, but the timing was just like a little too perfect in detectives' minds. So they actually concocted a little sting operation to surreptitiously get his DNA.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Detective Patterson and his partner, they fly down to Argentina with two FBI agents. They meet the employee under the guise of being interested in buying some property from him. So they like then make plans to have dinner with him. And then during dinner when he's away-

• 28:39Speaker 00

  This is like a whole spy drama.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, they swipe his glass and his spoon. They bring the samples back to the US. And the investigators test all three samples, Gustavo's, his wife's, this employee's. And then they wait. But the DNA results come back, one by one. No match to Gustavo, no match to the wife, and no match to the employee.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Did the employee have an alibi?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so as much as anyone can when you don't know the time of death, right? And surveillance footage showed him still at the club for hours after Nori left. And investigators also find out, by the way, that that funeral in Argentina was legit. They didn't just like make that up to get out of Dodge.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Okay, but I can't come up with a scenario where any of these people taking like her camera makes sense, though.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  I'm obsessed with this camera.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I don't think the wife would have a reason. Like the only thing that possibly makes sense would be like-

• 29:35Speaker 01

  If the wife was like seen in the background of a picture, that would prove that she was like following Nori that night.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but police know that she wasn't out that night based on her alibi.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And we know that she didn't match the DNA. So not her. I guess the employee wouldn't want to be seen in a picture if it was like at one of the last two places she went to. Like him being in pictures from like the Roomba Cafe doesn't mean anything because he works there, we know he's there. If it was Gustavo, I think he has the most to hide if there were pictures of him and Nori together on the camera. But that would be like if his wife didn't know about the affair and we have Detective Patterson saying that like he absolutely believes that she did.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Right. So the question becomes like who else would have been on that camera from that night?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I think the other people who were with her that night probably. And investigators check those people out. I mean, they look at her dance partner. He was the last one with her, right? He's the one that puts her in the cab to go home. But there's no motive there. I mean, he was only with her for a few minutes and icing on the cake, his DNA wasn't a match either. Truth be told, Patterson said they never really even suspected him. They really just tested his DNA to make sure that they were leaving no stone unturned.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Crossing Ts, dotting Is.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  But the real person who drew a lot of suspicion from police was somebody that Nori had known for years, somebody she trusted. The very man who offered up Gustavo's name as a suspect, the one who then pointed police in the direction of Gustavo's employee, the same man who somehow showed up to the crime scene, by the way, the same day that Nori was found without being called. And that's David.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by Ollie. The holidays are all about spending quality time with loved ones and your dog is no exception. Ollie just launched their brand new holiday feast, a limited edition recipe made with 100% human grade turkey, cranberries, sweet potatoes, and butternut squash. It's a delicious festive way to give your pup a seat at the holiday table. Plus, Ollie partnered with Baccarat to give away 10 custom engraved Ollie Day Crystal Dog Balls. Become an Ollie member and order the holiday feast by November 3rd for a chance to win. Stock is limited, so be sure to order your holiday feast before it runs out. Ollie has been amazing for our dog, Bertie. She has definitely had an extra boost of energy and we've been able to feel confident in the real wholesome food she's eating. Stock is limited, so secure your holiday feast while you can.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  Head to ollie.com/crimejunkie and use code CRIMEJUNKIE to get 70% off your pup's holiday feast today. And remember to order by November 3rd. That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash crime junkie and enter code CRIMEJUNKIE to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. No purchase necessary. Terms and conditions apply. See official rules at see rules dot com slash dog bowl for how to enter, price details, and restrictions.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  David and Nori knew each other well. One of David's family members told us that he and Nori went way back, like all the way back to high school. They were part of a group that stayed in touch as they grew up and David would still go out salsa dancing with Nori and their friends from time to time. And from Detective Patterson's perspective, David's basically been a part of this investigation from the beginning, though to begin with, he was just a witness, one who was conveniently in Nori's building the night that her body was found, like as police were processing the scene. So let me lay it out for you. Nori's sister Liz told us that after the 911 call, police took over the apartment

• 33:24Speaker 01

  and asked Carlos and Liz to move into the hallway. And when Liz walked out, David was there waiting in the crowd that had gathered around the door to see what was going on. Now, she can't tell us exactly how many minutes had passed since police got there or what time she saw David, like everything was just happening quickly. But the way she remembers it, they found Nori and then in her words, poof, David was suddenly right outside the apartment. Like to her, it felt quick, like too quick.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  I mean, did someone call him?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Not Carlos or Liz. I mean, and there could be, listen, an innocent explanation for this.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Okay, well, what's his explanation?

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Well, we've tried multiple ways, multiple times to get in touch with him. We haven't been able to make contact. Detective Patterson remembers that his explanation was like weird and he remembers asking David about it, but he doesn't remember.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Like what it actually was?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yes, unfortunately. Now, what I will say is that Carlos said David was calling Nori at the same time, like Carlos had her phone because, you know, David hadn't heard from her. So maybe he got worried and went to go look for her, just like Carlos did. But another friend of Nori's had this weird interaction with David too. She was at work when she found out that Nori was murdered. So friends picked her up and drove her to Nori's mom's house. And on the way, she called the house to like, you know, let them know she was coming, make sure it was okay. And it was David that answered. He was there. And off the bat, David started like launching into this really detailed explanation of where he was the night Nori died and why he wasn't with her, like he got sick, he had

• 35:01Speaker 01

  a cold or something, so he went home, took some meds, and then he fell asleep and then he just overslept. And Nori's friend was sitting there thinking like, why are you telling me? Like, why aren't we talking about Nori? But she just let him go on and on. And she told us as soon as she hung up, she turned to the people in the car and said, that was the weirdest conversation. But back to Nori's apartment that day, like when David showed up to the scene, he told police that he was with Nori that night. So obviously he went down to the police station with Carlos and Liz to give a statement. But Liz said that he just started like throwing out theories and names. I mean, at that point though, police were like taking every lead he'll throw their way, jotting names down left and right.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  But as Detective Patterson tries to nail down David's relationship with Nori and his movements that Halloween weekend, things to him start feeling kind of shifty. According to Detective Patterson, David told him that he was out that night with Nori at Gustavo's club and he got so drunk that somebody from the club drove him home because he couldn't drive himself.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Wait, didn't he tell the friend that he had a cold and went home and took medicine?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yes, that is what that friend remembers, but it was a highly emotional time. Who knows? Anyways, his place is like 40 minutes away in Maryland, meaning that when someone drove him home, he had to leave his car in DC. So David said that he came back to DC at some point the next day to pick it up. And Detective Patterson starts asking him, okay, like where exactly did you leave your car? How did you get back into the city? When did you get back into the city? How long were you here?

• 36:41Speaker 00

  And that's like the important part, right? Like was he in DC, I don't know, say between like 2:30 and 6:00 AM?

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Want to pull your hair out? So all these years later, Detective Patterson can't remember exactly what David said. And we could not get an answer from current investigators on this or from David himself. But Detective Patterson told us that he remembers David's answers just weren't adding up. And he said, quote, "The math ain't mathing." And then Detective Patterson learned just how much Nori trusted David and how much access he had to her apartment. Because remember, one thing that he took note of when he was first on the scene was the fact that there was no forced entry and the door to Nori's apartment was locked when

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Carlos tried to check on her. He had to get the security guard to open it. Now, there are some alternate possibilities around all of this that I'm going to get into later, but based on everything Detective Patterson saw at the scene, he always thought that this crime was personal, somebody Nori knew, maybe somebody who even had a key to her place. And Nori's brother Carlos tells him David had one for a very interesting reason. So at this time, back in 2009, David was married to a woman, but he was also seeing men. Detective Patterson says there was one man in particular that they heard about, who

• 38:16Speaker 01

  I'll call Eric for privacy reasons. And apparently Nori let David use her apartment as this like private place for them to meet up. Now, when David was asked by Detective Patterson if he had a key, he completely denied it and they were never able to recover one from him. So he very well could be telling the truth. And really, the key thing might not even be that big of a deal because we were told Nori actually left her door unlocked all the time. Like I told you, her building had like all this like security, a security guard, all these like doors, the keep up, whatever. And it made her feel like she was like, yeah, living in a super secure place and like she didn't necessarily always need that extra layer.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Carlos also told us that she may have started even leaving her door unlocked specifically for David.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  I guess I don't get what his motive would be though, because it sounds like Nori was helping him out.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Well, that could come back to Nori's camera. So a source told us that detectives learned that before Nori died, she downloaded a batch of recent photos from her digital camera onto a computer at the restaurant because her own computer wasn't working. And in those files were pictures of David and Eric together at a club, like dancing and kissing. Oh, yeah. Now, I think it's important to note that our reporter, Malika, actually tracked down David's wife, ex-wife now, and she told us that she knew David was having affairs. She and David were already sleeping in separate rooms and after Nori died, they got divorced.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  So I don't think her finding out would have been motive for anything, but that doesn't mean that he was ready for the world to know.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  And what was Eric's situation?

• 40:06Speaker 01

  So from what we could tell from like social media, Eric was a couple of years out of college, working as a waiter back in 2009, not at Roomba Cafe as far as we know. And I don't know if he was fully out either, but he was like friendly with Nori and her friends through David. It seems like he was out with them at least. And we actually reached out to Eric during our reporting. And when we asked if he would speak with us about Nori, even just about like knowing her, he said something like, no, I mean, like rest in peace, Nori, but no. Listen, here's the problem I have. With all of that, like motive or whatever. Norrie already downloaded those pictures of David and Eric onto a computer. So like, if that was something you were hiding, either one of them, taking the camera.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  You don't need the camera. You need the computer at the restaurant.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  But maybe whoever did this didn't know that, right? Like, her computer isn't working. They might think that, like, they might not think about the computer at work. They could think that everything is still on the camera.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Sure, but why wait till that night? Like, if those pictures were so damning to someone, like, to me, you get the camera like the night that those pictures were taken. That wasn't Halloween. I think that if the camera is relevant, the pictures have to correspond to that night.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  And was Eric with David that night?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  It doesn't seem like it. I mean, remember, David leaves on his own when he gets drunk, as far as we know, which like, doesn't mean that they couldn't have been up later, but, yeah. Either way, they collect both men's DNA, and neither of them was a match for the DNA that they have on Norrie. But even with that, there is something that Detective Patterson just can't shake about David. He doesn't think that he was the one who killed Norrie, but in his personal opinion, he has always believed that David may have had some involvement, or at least knew more than he admitted.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  David only? I mean, what about Eric?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  I mean, Detective Patterson didn't say much about Eric. Like, I mean, it seems like most of his focus has been David, but he is also clear that until they know what happened to Norrie, like, nobody's completely off the table. But I guess it doesn't seem like he's really, like, zeroing in on him at all. Though I will say, Eric may not have been the only man that David was seeing. I mean, for almost the whole time we were reporting on this story, we didn't hear other names, just like, oh, you know, David Sawman, in general. But we just learned something from a friend of Norrie's that I find very interesting. So, this friend told us that just a few weeks before Norrie's murder, she had stopped by Norrie's restaurant while David was there,

• 42:48Speaker 01

  and Norrie started telling her about a different man that David was seeing, who was apparently a diplomat. Norrie's friend couldn't remember this guy's name, or even where he was from. But Norrie told this friend that she and David went to a hotel where this diplomat was staying, and Norrie got into an argument with this diplomat. She basically called this guy out over the way that he was acting toward David, telling him, like, you're not a man. What kind of man acts like this? And apparently, she wasn't backing down. And Norrie's friend remembers, like, in that moment, being a little scared for Norrie. Like, you know, if this guy really was a diplomat, like, he's probably powerful.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  And Norrie was just going off on him. Now, she didn't hear anything more about this guy, so maybe this is totally random. But I can't verify an alibi or confirm if his DNA was tested, because this came up so late in our reporting. We had already done our interview with Detective Patterson. We tried reaching back out to him, but he has not gotten back to us about our questions surrounding this diplomat. The only person who would even confirm that police heard about a diplomat was Norrie's brother Carlos. And he was interesting to work with. Like, I mean, he's great. He wants Norrie's case solved more than anyone. And yes, they checked his DNA and alibi, like, everything. He has never been a suspect. But, you know, he's really cognizant of not hurting the investigation.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  So like, if we learned something from somewhere else, someone else, he would confirm it.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  But he wasn't necessarily, like, serving up any information on his own.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes, and so that's like how it was with this diplomat. So once we asked him about this, he told us that he remembers the diplomat being from Mexico. And he remembers investigators tracking this guy down and talking to him, but he doesn't think anything came of it. Though, I don't know what that means, or how far they got with the guy. And I don't know if that guy, whoever he is, was even in DC on Halloween night 2009. But I would love to ask.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Well, and I was wondering, like, did David and this diplomat ever use Norrie's apartment?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Me too. I assume police have asked David. I mean, Detective Patterson was thorough, but we can't be sure until he gets back to us.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  I mean, if Patterson's theory is that David knows more, someone like a diplomat would make sense. Someone he might be afraid of.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Or maybe there's somebody else that he was involved with that is yet to be identified. Or, maybe David really isn't involved at all. Even though we didn't make contact with him, we did speak to members of David's family, who remember him being devastated by Norrie's death. I mean, one family member remembers him crying and saying, like, she was my friend. Another remembers how shocked he seemed, saying, "I just saw her. I cannot believe this happened." And they don't believe that David was involved in Norrie's murder, and he has never been charged with anything in relation to it. Now, key or no key, we did learn that Norrie was known to leave her apartment door unlocked. Like, I told you, the building had a security guy at the front. It had multiple cameras. You had to, like, use a pass thing or to get in.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  She felt safe.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, like, it was, there were so many layers of security, sometimes she didn't feel like she needed that extra one. Anyone could have come in.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Yes, but I'm stuck on how they would have locked up behind them when they left, because you would need a key for that.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  I was gonna come back to this. So, I didn't want to get sidetracked. Here's the thing. So no one could or would tell us definitively if Norrie's keys were all accounted for. Police say the only thing missing was that camera of hers, so I assume that no keys were missing, but we don't know for sure. Especially if she had spares, right, that she was, like, giving to friends.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  She had made, like, whatever. There's no count of, right.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  But, more importantly, we know for certain that someone else was in Norrie's apartment after she died, and they may have locked her apartment door. When police processed her apartment, they found a card for an exterminator. And they found out that the building had scheduled, like, a maintenance thing for the units on Monday, the same Monday that Norrie was found. So, an exterminator had a key to let himself in. He sprayed, he left, and when he left, it's very likely he might have been the one who actually locked the door, like, behind him.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Wait, so he was in her apartment with her dead body?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Which I know sounds bananas. I, like, spiraled on this. Detective Patterson interviewed this guy. He said the guy never actually went into the bedroom. He had no idea that she was in there. And this exterminator unfortunately doesn't remember if the door already was locked or unlocked when he went in to begin with.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  It's like one of those things that you don't think about remembering when it's happening.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  So, like, I don't know, is the fact that there's no forced entry doesn't mean anything at all. I have no idea.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  And they checked this guy's DNA, right, like, the exterminator?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Yep, he's not a match. So, if someone didn't need to be let in or have a key, that could open up the suspect pool really, really wide. Maybe it isn't somebody who knew her. Maybe that's why this case has been so hard to solve. Detective Patterson points to things like the fact that Norrie was covered with the comforter after she was killed. Like, he says that's behavior you often see when somebody cares for the victim.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Right, but it can also be something that a killer does if they're, like, ashamed of what they did.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Like, if the murder wasn't the plan.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, you know, maybe they had gone in with the goal of some kind of, like, sexual assault, and things like got out of hand.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Escalated, like, out of hand.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Now, interestingly, Carlos ran into a friend sometime a few months ago, somebody who's known both his family and David for years. And that friend told Carlos that they ran into David recently, and David started talking about Norrie. He allegedly described her death as a sexual situation that went wrong that night. Now, from what I can tell, we are actually the first to report confirmation of sexual assault. That was never confirmed by police before. So, back when this was said, it wasn't public knowledge. Carlos obviously told Detective Patterson. It piqued his interest, because he's like, you know, in all the times that I've talked to David,

• 49:09Speaker 01

  David has never described Norrie's death as a sexual situation gone wrong, in like, any of the many, many theories that he suggested to police. Now, by this point, Patterson is retired, so he passed the information on to the current investigator. But it might mean nothing. I mean, we are hearing this secondhand. The friend who supposedly heard this from David wouldn't talk to us. And even if it was said, it wasn't a secret that she was found only in her underwear, in her bed. Like, maybe as more was reported or shared with, like, their friend group or family, it could have been an inference that David made, since it doesn't look like she was robbed. Like, it's not a wild conclusion to jump to.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Right, but like, not robbed, sure, but we do think something was taken.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  We think something was taken. We know Norrie had her camera out that night. But the truth is, we can't see it in the surveillance video when she comes home. She's got, like, a purse or a bag or something, so like, it might be in there. Or maybe it got stolen. Like, one of the things I've been wondering, they spend so much time, or at least Detective Patterson did, talking about this camera or this thing missing. I've often wondered if it got, like, left in the cab.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  Oh, with her phone.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Right, phones are a little easier to trace. Like, you want to get that back to the owner. Cameras, like, poof, gone, easy, finders keepers.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  They're also, like, easier to, like, pawn or sell or get rid of or something.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  My cyber shot got stolen when I was in high school. I don't want to talk.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  Kind of why I brought it up.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Still a tender subject. And listen, I keep coming back to like, if this was about the camera or the pictures on the camera, the thing I can't figure out is why kill her? Why sexually assault her?

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Well, that's if the camera had something on it, like we've been talking about, like evidence of an affair, but like, one of the pictures just showed someone she was with that night who came back for her, like, maybe it showed their costume and would prove that they were both in her lobby and

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  out, like, with her when she was out at all these places.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  I've thought, I've thought about that. I mean, that's totally possible, like, without the camera, we have no idea what's on it. I've also, I'll tell you, thought like, thrown around like a darker theory, like, what if somebody used the camera to take pictures of Nori after they killed her, or even just like, took it as a souvenir?

• 51:27Speaker 00

  A trophy, yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, if it was taken, we don't really actually know the reason why. The thing I keep coming back to, and that I just can't let go for some reasons, like, her complex was so big, I keep wondering how hard they looked at every single person inside of it. Maybe the killer was never caught on surveillance cameras coming or going because they were already there. They could have known her habits, they could have known that she was somebody who didn't always lock her door. They would know that there's no cameras in the hallways. Now, I know Detective Patterson explored that possibility, too. He says that investigators went door to door on Nori's floor, talking to her next-door neighbor, and several other people who, like, lived down the hall, and police did collect

• 52:11Speaker 01

  DNA from some people connected to the building, like, even the security guard who let Carlos and Liz into Nori's unit. I don't know exactly who else, though, or an exact number of people. Even hearing, like, oh, we went door to door on her floor, that's great, what I was told is there's more than 1,100 units.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was, like, in perspective, the town I grew up in is 1,600 people.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's all of Waukerusa.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  That's all of Waukerusa to be tested.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Or talked to, or contacted, and that's kind of a huge number for a small place.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  And what I'll say is, like, it's not like they just looked right then, because Carlos remembers at least one resident being tested years later, after he died by suicide, I think they wondered, you know, could there have been a connection? Seems like no. But overall, Patterson remembers personally collecting DNA from around 10 people, and later reporting says more than 20 people were eventually tested. Still, again, very big building, and I wonder if there was someone in there who might have been hiding in plain sight. That DNA will be a major key to solving this case. I really believe it's only a matter of time. I mean, even though they used the sample to get a profile good enough for CODIS, there

• 53:26Speaker 01

  was some left that could be used for IgG one day. Now, back before Patterson retired in 2017, he sent off the sample they had to Parabon Nano Labs for analysis.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  But that was even before IgG was really a thing.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  It, they were doing still phenotyping, stuff like that back then, but like, right on the cusp, and at the time, they were told to wait, like, anything they were gonna do was gonna use up the entire sample, it's like, all they had left. The technology needed to get a little bit better. Now, remember, he retired, so he doesn't know what has happened with that sample since he left.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  I mean, it's been almost 10 years, I mean, surely there's, there's gotta be something they can do now.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  I hope, I hope. I mean, for the sake of everybody who has been pushing to get this thing solved. None more than Nori's family, who have spent the last 16 years trying to hold on hope that her case is gonna get solved. Carlos threw himself into finding answers, I mean, he chased leads, he called investigators, and for a long time, he tried to solve the case himself. And eventually, he went to therapy, he started helping other people work through their trauma, too, and he says that today, the pain of losing his sister Nori doesn't control him the way that it once did. His and Nori's sister Liz actually took a little bit of a different path, though. She ended up studying criminal justice and forensics, like, she had said she always

• 54:47Speaker 01

  had been interested in that world, but Nori's case became what she calls this inspirational factor in the path that she took. And even though she's found ways to move forward, she says that learning how to live without Nori isn't the same thing as accepting that nobody's ever been held accountable for killing her. So DNA might be the thing that solves this case, but both Liz and Carlos believe that somebody in Nori's world knows more about what happened than they've said. So the answers might not hinge on just the evidence alone, they might be with somebody out there listening right now. So for our listeners who were in the DC area back in 2009, listen up. And if it's not you, pass this episode on to somebody who was.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  If you were at one of the DC clubs Nori went to on Halloween night in 2009, we wanna hear from you. Even if you don't think you have anything super important, maybe you have pictures or videos from that night, who knows? The names of the places are Roomba Cafe, Russia House, and Bravo Bravo. And if you lived or worked at Nori's building, The Woodner, we wanna hear from you, too, especially if you remember anything from October 31st or November 1st, 2009. But honestly, any time around then, too, like, was anything going on in the building? Any weird instances? Anyone who stood out? And I know I had to change a lot of the names in this episode for privacy, but if you recognize

• 56:14Speaker 01

  the people that I've talked about, and you have had any interaction with them, or if you've heard anything, come forward. What you know or heard might be something small, maybe it sounded like gossip or didn't feel important enough to report, maybe you assumed the detectives already knew, but one tiny detail could be the break investigators have been waiting for. You can reach them by calling MPD at 202-727-9099, or you can reach us, as always, by emailing [email protected]. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.