Project 2025: What it is and what it's doing

The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, has published a Mandate for Leadership since 1981, making policy recommendations to the federal government. The latest edition is part of something much bigger: Project 2025. The newest Mandate is part of a four-pillar project designed to fundamentally change the federal government from the inside. Though President Trump and his team spent his third presidential campaign claiming they had nothing to do with it, Trump is no longer distancing himself from Project 2025. So let's dig in. Our guide to Project 2025 is the former director of factcheck.org and author of A Guide to Project 2025, Eugene Kiely. For more information on Project 2025, you can access the full policy playbook at the link above or by clicking here. You can watch the fourteen hours of instructional videos obtained by ProPublica here. More information about The Heritage Foundation and its stated values and goals can be found at their website. CLICK HERE: Visit our website to see all of our episodes, donate to the podcast, sign up for our newsletter, get free educational materials, and more! To see Civics 101 in book form, check out A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works by Hannah McCarthy and Nick Capodice, featuring illustrations by Tom Toro. Check out our other weekly NHPR podcast, Outside/In - we think you'll love it! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:55Hannah McCarthy?

  Hi, Nick.

• 0:56Nick Capodice?

  Hi, Hannah.

• 0:56Hannah McCarthy?

  Hi, Civics 101.

• 0:59Hannah McCarthy?

  Now, normally, Nick, I would start with some kind of anecdote here, right? Or some kind of joke to ease us in. But today, I just want to get right to the point. Project 2025.

• 1:11Speaker 04

  I spoke with Paul Dance, who is the director of Project 2025. And he said his number one goal was something that was called dismantle the administrative state, which basically is what's happening now by cutting the federal workforce and by eliminating or neutering a lot of the agency's regulatory powers. So this is what the conservatives wanted, and this is what now the conservatives are getting.

• 1:45Hannah McCarthy?

  This is Eugene Kylie.

• 1:47Speaker 04

  I'm the former director of factcheck.org, although I still do some part-time work for them.

• 1:53Hannah McCarthy?

  That part-time work includes writing a five-part series on this project, this plan, initiative proposal blueprint to transform the federal government.

• 2:05Speaker 04

  When I started writing about this, I didn't set out to do a series of five stories. I wasn't going to do that. But there's just so much here that it really required it.

• 2:21Nick Capodice?

  All right, Hannah, you know I have wanted to do an episode on this for a long while.

• 2:25Hannah McCarthy?

  I do.

• 2:26Nick Capodice?

  And before we dig deeper into what Project 2025 actually is, can we tell the people why we're finally making this episode right now?

• 2:35Hannah McCarthy?

  Sure. But first, a friendly reminder here. Civics 101 exists to share the facts about things so that you can understand what everyone is talking about. In today's world, facts are often labeled as biased or partisan by people on both sides of the aisle. That makes life confusing, but I want to assure you that the following episode is here to tell you what Project 2025 is in its own words. The reporting on this episode draws from the Heritage Foundation's and Project 2025's own writing and videos and the real policies that have been put into place since President Trump's inauguration in January 2025. Facts are not biased. They are what is, what exists.

• 3:21Hannah McCarthy?

  Neither Nick nor I want anyone to be confused about the world. In fact, we want the very opposite. Okay, so the reason we're making this episode now and the reason we did not make it before is because up until very recently, President Trump and his administration had publicly distanced from Project 2025. The president, in fact, spent his third campaign saying he had nothing to do with it.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  Number one, I have nothing to do, as you know, and as she knows better than anyone, I have nothing to do with Project 2025. That's out there. I haven't read it. I don't want to read it purposely. I'm not going to read it. This was a group of people that got together. They came up with some ideas. I guess some good, some bad, but it makes no difference. I have nothing to do. Everybody knows. I'm an open book. Everybody knows what I'm going to do.

• 4:11Hannah McCarthy?

  We'll circle back around to why that was difficult to take at face value even then. But anyway, Trump is not doing that anymore.

• 4:19Speaker 06

  Despite distancing himself from that during the 2024 campaign, in a social media post yesterday, the president announced he would be meeting with his budget chief, Russell Vogt, identifying him as of Project 2025 fame to discuss agency cuts amid the shutdown.

• 4:41Nick Capodice?

  So very simply put, while the president has not come out and said he loves or endorses Project 2025, he is saying he's working directly with a Project 2025 architect to do what that architect wants to do.

• 4:57Hannah McCarthy?

  Correct. And if you want to know the why behind that pivot, that one is pretty straightforward.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  It was for political reasons that he did that back in 2024. Project 2025 became kind of a buzzword that people may or may not have fully understood. And Democrats were having, getting some traction on it. The Democrats also, and I should say this, the Democrats have overplayed their hand a bit. As fact checkers, what we were looking at was some of the statements that were made by Democrats that were false or misleading when it came to Project 2025. And that also gave Trump some ammunition, frankly, to distance himself from it. So it was, it was all just a political calculation that apparently

• 5:48Speaker 04

  has worked.

• 5:51Hannah McCarthy?

  Speaking of what's working and how, let's get into it. Project 2025.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Well, the purpose of it is to carry out the conservative vision of what the federal government should be. And that is to have less regulations and to carry out the conservative visions on issues like, you know, family and law enforcement.

• 6:17Nick Capodice?

  And when Eugene says "it," he's talking about a specific document, right?

• 6:22Speaker 04

  Project 2025 is many things, but what we're focusing on right now here is the 887-page book that was produced by the Heritage Foundation.

• 6:35Nick Capodice?

  Two quick things. First, the Heritage Foundation, for those who don't know, is a conservative think tank. And think tank is a term we hear all the time. We just kind of breeze by.

• 6:45Hannah McCarthy?

  That we do. So think tanks bring together like minded people to do research and propose and advocate for policy. The Heritage Foundation's like minds want, quote, "free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense," unquote. That is from their website.

• 7:05Nick Capodice?

  How do they define traditional American values?

• 7:09Hannah McCarthy?

  The Heritage Foundation has many, many resources on their website, and you can check that out to see the specifics. But, you know, some examples, right? They believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, that male and female are biological truths at birth. They are firmly anti-abortion. They want parents to be able to receive funds to take their kids out of public schools and put them in private schools, get them tutoring, homeschool them. They want stronger immigration enforcement. They see, quote, "big tech as silencing conservatives." They are anti-ranked choice voting. And that is just the tip of the values iceberg.

• 7:45Nick Capodice?

  Wow, so a wide range of what they believe "American" means. All right, and Eugene said that Project 2025 is many things. What does he mean exactly?

• 7:57Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, Project 2025 has four pillars. The book that Eugene mentioned, called The Mandate for Leadership: A Conservative Promise, that is pillar one.

• 8:07Nick Capodice?

  All right, what are the other three?

• 8:08Hannah McCarthy?

  Number two, a personnel database of candidates for appointment.

• 8:14Nick Capodice?

  Like presidential appointments?

• 8:16Hannah McCarthy?

  Exactly that. That database was to be reviewed by the Project 2025 Coalition. Then the Coalition would pick out recommendations to be, quote, "shared with the president-elect's team, greatly streamlining the appointment process," unquote.

• 8:30Nick Capodice?

  Wow. So in other words, here's a list of people we want in the executive branch?

• 8:35Hannah McCarthy?

  Yes.

• 8:36Nick Capodice?

  And did the Trump administration use that list?

• 8:39Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, the transition team immediately started reaching out to people whose names were on that list after Trump was elected. Take that as you will. But I mentioned that Trump and his team were hardline, publicly distancing themselves from Project 2025 during his campaign. I also mentioned that that was hard to take at face value.

• 9:01Speaker 04

  Project 2025 has 40 named authors. 32 of the 40. Have ties either to the past or current Trump administrations or campaigns. There were another 267 additional contributors, more than half of them worked in Trump's first administration or on his campaign or transition team. And half of the organizations that served as partners in the Education Department's new civics education project were also on Project 2025's advisory board. So the ties between Project 2025 and the Trump administration are very deep. And Russ Boat is a clear example of that.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  He's been leading the charge for him, along with Elon Musk, have been at the forefront of trying to reduce the federal workforce. And Russ was someone who was in the first administration and is now OMV Director.

• 10:01Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, pillar three is the Presidential Administration Academy.

• 10:07Nick Capodice?

  Is that what it sounds like?

• 10:09Hannah McCarthy?

  If it sounds like an "online educational system taught by experts from our coalition", then it surely is. ProPublica obtained 14 hours of video from this online academy. These videos explain conservative principles.

• 10:24Speaker 07

  It reminds traditional conservatives of the rational ground, the moral principles of their ideas that are needed to distinguish between good traditions and bad traditions.

• 10:37Hannah McCarthy?

  The history of the conservative movement, how appointees impact policy, how to become an appointee, how background checks work, what it's like to be an appointee. Make sure that you curtail your social media and remove items that are in any way damaging, vulgar, or contradict the policies you are there to implement. The budget process, the regulatory process, executive actions, how to work with the media, how to be professional, government oversight, using social media to advance policy, and in a lesson entitled "Hidden Meetings: The Monsters in the Attic", how to identify and root out supposed left-wing code words and biases. Let me share a personal example of how the left seeks to permeate.

• 11:20Nick Capodice?

  ...dimension of life through their skewed terminology and definition. Wow, that is like conservative presidential appointee 101.

• 11:30Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, I will link to that in the show notes for those who want to know. All right, last pillar, pillar four, quote, "We are forming agency teams and drafting transition plans to move out upon the president's utterance of 'so help me God,' unquote."

• 11:45Nick Capodice?

  What?

• 11:45Hannah McCarthy?

  It's a playbook to help the president do all of this stuff and quickly.

• 11:49Nick Capodice?

  All right, so I have to ask, did the president do all this stuff?

• 11:54Hannah McCarthy?

  I think what you're asking is, did he do this stuff because of and with the aid of the Project 2025 mandate and playbook and personnel database? I do not have enough information to answer that specifically yet. What I can tell you is that Trump has already done a lot of what Project 2025 recommended.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  There are many examples. I think maybe what I could do is just give you one example that kind of gives you an idea of how this has been carried out. So, looking at the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, which is this crown jewel, quote unquote, of the DOJ. This is a division that has always had the back of civil rights activists and went after those who illegally trampled on the rights of minorities. So, in Project 2025, it said that the DOJ should lead a, quote, "whole of government recommitment to nondiscrimination," unquote.

• 13:04Speaker 04

  Specifically, it said that the Civil Rights Division should, and I'm quoting here again, "use the full force of federal prosecutorial resources to investigate and prosecute all state and local governments, institutions of higher education, corporations, and any other private employers who are engaged in discrimination and violation of constitutional and legal requirements." That all sounds very good, but what they're talking about is DEI. And going after all these organizations and institutions and governments that have DEI programs. And that's exactly what the DOJ has done.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  On her first day, the Attorney General Pam Bondi directed the Division to develop a plan to, in her words, "to encourage the private sector to end illegal discrimination and preferences, including policies relating to DEI." She then launches a "civil rights fraud initiative," that's what they called it, "civil rights fraud initiative," that was co-led by the Civil Rights Division. And in a memo explaining the "civil rights fraud initiative," the Deputy Attorney General said that the Civil Rights Division would use the False Claims Act to take action against

• 14:26Speaker 04

  federal fund recipients, which include local governments, state governments, higher education, all those recipients. Take action against them if they, quote, "knowingly engage in racist preferences, mandates, policies, programs, and activities, including through diversity, equity, and inclusion," the DEI programs. So they did exactly what Project 2025 suggested they should do.

• 15:01Hannah McCarthy?

  Many of Trump's executive actions use language and methods that seem to be directly from the Project 2025 book. These include, like Eugene said, ending DEI practices. They include working toward dismantling the Department of Education, defunding the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, freezing federal funds, revoking security clearances, revoking federal support for gender-affirming care, withdrawing from the World Health Organization, removing job protections for the federal workforce, banning transgender people in the military, removing federal officials, sending active-duty troops to the southern border. I could go on.

• 15:38Nick Capodice?

  That's okay. I pretty much get the picture.

• 15:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Here are a couple of things I think you gotta understand about Project 2025.

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Well, it's not new. And in fact, Heritage did this back in 2016. And in Trump's first term, he implemented, according to Heritage Foundation, nearly 64% of the 2016 addition after just one year in office.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  So this isn't new. However, what is new about this is it's just such a detailed and rich document. It's more than just a list of, you know, like a conservative proposals and a conservative wish list. It's really a blueprint for how to transform government. And it gives very detailed instructions on how to fire federal workers, how to close entire bureaus and offices, how to rid the country, not just federal government, the entire country, with this so-called woke propaganda. This is at every level of government, in private sector, at universities, just everywhere.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  And how to take control of independent federal agencies and neuter the watchdog agencies that exist in the executive branch. So it's much different in that sense, where it really is quite remarkable document on how to transform government.

• 17:11Nick Capodice?

  So what makes Project 2025 unique is that it doesn't just say, hey, here are some things you could do. It says, here is precisely how to do those things.

• 17:21Hannah McCarthy?

  Which is not to say the administration hasn't gotten creative.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  There were times when President Trump and the Trump administration went beyond what was recommended by Project 2025, as well as doing exactly what Project had recommended. The example I just gave on the DOJ's Civil Rights Division, Trump had the opportunity to do this the first time, he didn't. But this is something that is occurring now. Same thing with using military at the border. Project 2025 recommended using active-duty military personnel to assist in arresting operations along the border. And as Project 2025 said, that is something that has never been done before.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  And that's exactly what Trump did. He, on his first day, declares a national emergency at the southern border, issues an executive order clarifying the use of the military to protect the "territorial integrity" of the United States. And then, the military turns around after getting these executive orders, creates what they call the Joint Task Force Southern Border. They establish four national defense areas in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas that span 515 miles. And anyone who crosses onto that border now, because you're on military property, can be arrested for trespassing.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  And those that are arrested are then turned over to law enforcement, and those who are arrested who are illegally in the country now can be turned over to ICE and ultimately deported. So, what's happening, what has happened, just in those two examples, are things that could have been done in the first term but were not. And now, they are being done, in part because this blueprint was provided, and that the people in the Trump administration who can make it happen.

• 19:26Nick Capodice?

  I can see, Hannah, how the Heritage Foundation might have looked at Trump's first term, looked at how much of their policy wishlist was granted the first go-around, and then spent four years figuring out how to shoot for the conservative moon with very specific instructions.

• 19:44Hannah McCarthy?

  As the Mandate for Leadership book puts it, "If conservatives want to save the country, we need a bold and courageous plan. This book is the first step in that plan." And I have got more on that plan, Nick, after a quick break.

• 19:57Nick Capodice?

  But before that break, a reminder that if you're looking for a nonpartisan 101 on how the government works, you can find hundreds and hundreds of episodes on our website, civics101podcast.org.

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• 24:20Nick Capodice?

  We're back. We're talking about Project 2025 with factcheck.org reporter Eugene Kylie. Hannah, you said you had more on that plan, what the Heritage Foundation calls a bold and courageous plan. And I guess I just want to know what the point is.

• 24:37Hannah McCarthy?

  The point?

• 24:39Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. I mean, I understand a conservative group wanting conservative policies, but there seems to be something bigger going on here.

• 24:48Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, it kind of seems like there just might be.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  This is redoing and refocusing and reorganizing pretty much every department in the United States Executive Branch.

• 25:02Hannah McCarthy?

  I asked Eugene, you know, given the fact that the Heritage Foundation has published these mandates for leadership in the past, what is the difference today?

• 25:14Speaker 04

  It's unprecedented, and that was the whole point of this. You know, part of what they say in Project 2025 is that even though we've had conservative Republicans or liberal Democrats, they haven't been able to transform government. They were just working around the margins.

• 25:36Hannah McCarthy?

  This project is not about four years of bolstering conservative values. It's about changing everything fundamentally.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  Russ Vogt, he was someone who was in the first administration and now, of course, he's the OMB Director. He wrote this section on the power of the Executive Branch. And he wrote that the Constitution gives the President this enormous power and that the President must use, aggressively use this power, to quote, "bend or break the bureaucracy to the presidential will." And that is something that has never been done. And that was the whole point. The thrust of this, this is something that they wanted to do that had never been done before.

• 26:26Nick Capodice?

  Bend or break the bureaucracy?

• 26:29Hannah McCarthy?

  Russell Vogt, the man who Trump credits as being of Project 2025 fame, the man who he says he is working with to, quote, "cut," quote, "Democrat agencies," temporarily or permanently, is the guy behind the Office of Management and Budget. Vogt is the one who wrote the section of Project 2025 about executive power. He has said that he wants federal employees to be in, quote, "trauma," and that he wants to essentially starve government agencies.

• 26:59Nick Capodice?

  But again, Hannah, I ask, what is the point? Where is all this going?

• 27:04Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, according to Vogt, he wants to, quote, "make sure that the bureaucracy can't reconstitute itself later in future administrations," unquote.

• 27:14Nick Capodice?

  So a permanent change to the federal government. And what does bureaucracy mean here exactly?

• 27:21Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, that is a word that is thrown around a lot as a catch-all without much explanation. In the United States, it refers to the federal government agencies and departments, and the millions of people who work there, the regulatory commissions, the private-public corporations, the various unique offices. It is a huge, hulking thing, and conservatives have long argued it needs to be shrunken and streamlined.

• 27:44Nick Capodice?

  Which we are very much seeing.

• 27:45Hannah McCarthy?

  We are.

• 27:48Nick Capodice?

  What specifically does Project 2025 propose when it comes to the bureaucracy?

• 27:54Hannah McCarthy?

  Oh, eliminating homeland security, privatizing the TSA, eliminating, like we said, the Department of Education, but also gutting FEMA and moving the costs of disaster preparedness in response to the states, eliminating many of the EPA's labs and offices, privatizing the VA, dismantling housing and urban development, stripping the DOJ of independence and putting it under control of the president, and reducing the Centers for Disease Control. And there's more, but like I said, it will not all fit in this episode.

• 28:25Nick Capodice?

  So as far as all of that not being able to reconstitute itself... It is hard to imagine what it would take for a future administration to rebuild from that much rubble. It is a lot easier to tear something down than to rebuild it.

• 28:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, and I wanted to know, while all of this is going on, what is the rest of the government doing? Because we are talking about the actions of the executive and his appointees, major changes in the works, or already very much completed. Where is everybody else?

• 28:58Speaker 04

  The US government has checks and balances. Congress should be playing a role, and actually, Project 2025 makes the argument that Congress has ceded too much power to the executive branch, ironically. And we have seen that Congress, because it's controlled by the Republican Party, isn't really standing up to the Trump administration when even it feels it's gone too far. So there's that. And then there's the other check, of course, is the Supreme Court and the whole court system, and there's a mixed record there as well.

• 29:37Speaker 04

  And within the executive branch, there are watchdog agencies, independent federal agencies and independent offices that are supposed to provide some checks and balances, and those have been neutered by the administration. So there isn't, at this point, anyone or any organization or agency or branch that is stepping forward and looking to curb the Trump administration's tendencies to go this far.

• 30:14Nick Capodice?

  Hannah, what does Eugene think in terms of the future here? I know that Project 2025 is one heck of a plan for the future of the United States government, and I know that the ball is already rolling, or at least appears to be. But does Eugene have any sense of how that plan is going to go?

• 30:31Hannah McCarthy?

  As is so often the case, Nick, a lot of it depends on how much we like it and what we do about it.

• 30:38Speaker 04

  The Trump administrations, both of them, the first and this one, has taken the Republican Party in a completely different direction on a lot of basic principles that conservatives have held for a long time. So, yeah, he has transformed the Republican Party, as well as now transforming the government. What happens in the future depends on how successful this is, right? If it turns out that it is successful and voters like what he's doing, likes what Congress is doing, likes what has been done, then it will continue, at least for a period of time.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  If there is a backlash to all of this, then we'll be in a different cycle. And, you know, over the years, politics has been very cyclical. It wasn't long ago when Democrats were in charge of both houses in the presidency. And now we're at a completely different place. So, you know, it's like what they say about the weather, just hang around and it'll change.

• 31:58Hannah McCarthy?

  That does it for this episode. It was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Capodice. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Marina Hanke is our producer. Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound. And while, yes, the government is shifting and changing, some things don't exist anymore and some things are brand new, we will continue to cover it. And you can continue to learn about all of it by going to our website, civics101podcast.org. That's where you'll find out how the government works, or worked. And if you have questions about what's going on, please ask us. You can submit a question at that same website, again, civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

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