Pod Insights All In The Mind Serial killers: answering your questions about how they think About this episode Can serial killers ever learn empathy? Is their psychology similar to mass shooters? Why are they almost always men?
Welcome to All in the Mind’s first ever ‘mailbag’ episode!
These are just some of the many questions you sent us after our recent episode on serial killers, called Where have all the serial killers gone? https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/where-have-all-the-serial-killers-gone-criminal-psychology/105499214
Forensic psychiatrist Dr Rajan Darjee is back on the show, answering these questions and a whole lot more.
And can we ask a favour? As this is our first mailbag episode, we’d love to know your thoughts. Do you find this kind of format useful or interesting? Would you be keen to hear mailbag episodes more regularly? You can reach us at [email protected] if you have any feedback.
You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guests:
Dr Rajan DarjeeForensic psychiatristClinical Director, Forensic Behavioural Assessment and Consultation Services
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: John Jacobs
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
0:07 Speaker 01 Hi, I'm Dr Anne Jones from What the Duck. And what is Australia's most underrated animal? The koala, the wombat, the echidna? No. Australia's fauna is so much more than what you can find on the back of the coin. And What the Duck is featuring 10 underrated Australian animals, like the marsupial mole. It looks like a party-sized sausage roll with a blonde wig on and it lives under sand dunes. That's gotta be underrated. Search What the Duck and hear it now on the ABC Listen app.
0:37 Speaker 02 Hey, I'm Sana Qadar. This is All in the Mind Mailbag Edition.
0:44 Speaker 02 It's a version of the show where you send us your burning questions on a topic we've covered and we put them directly to an expert. And this week, we're talking about serial killers.
0:56 Speaker 02 This is our very first attempt at this mailbag format. It's a different style to our main show, as you'll notice. And we're pretty excited to try it out for a few reasons. One being that a couple of months ago, you might remember, we ran a listener survey and quite a few of you responded. Thank you for that. And a lot of you said we should try out a mailbag format because it's really popular with other shows and often our episodes leave you with a lot of follow-up questions. So that's one reason. The second is we recently wrapped up our series on criminal psychology. It was very popular and our final episode in that series was on serial killers, a topic that seems to endlessly fascinate.
1:41 Speaker 01 Ivan Mallett. You cannot have a discussion about serial killers in Australia without talking about this man.
1:48 Speaker 02 And so we thought this would be a good time to try a mailbag episode. And I think we were right because so many of you have sent us questions that, oh my gosh, I don't think we will get to them all, but we will try. And to help us answer your questions, we have brought back Dr Rajan Darjee onto the show. He was in that serial killers episode and he is a forensic psychiatrist who has worked in the UK and Australia, where he is now the Clinical Director of Forensic Behavioural Assessment and Consultation Services in Melbourne. So let's get into it.
2:22 Speaker 02 Cool. Shall we go?
2:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
2:24 Speaker 02 Well, first of all, thank you for coming back on the show.
2:26 Speaker 00 You're welcome. Thanks for having me back.
2:28 Speaker 02 We have had so many questions come in, but I thought before we get to the questions, it might be useful for listeners to know a little bit about you, like how you got into this line of work, why you chose forensic psychiatry, and then we'll launch into the questions.
2:42 Speaker 00 Okay, yeah, I can, I'll give you the honest answer, and I've said this previously to people, which is not an answer I used to give when I went for job interviews when I was starting, because that would come out. Basically, what happened is when I was at medical school, in the early 1990s, Silence of the Lambs came out.
3:01 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
3:02 Speaker 00 And I was in third year of medical school, and I thought it was a great film. At that point, I had no idea about anything to do with psychiatry, but I thought, wow, you know, people who do these things are horrendous but very interesting. So I got a book about a British serial killer called Dennis Nielsen. And the thing that was interesting wasn't the, the blood and gore and the nasty details of crimes. It had like, it was a really good book by a man called Brian Masters. It had sections on trying to understand Dennis Nielsen, but also on his trial, because he put forward a defence of diminished responsibility.
3:46 Speaker 00 And for me, naively, I was like, well, how can someone like Dennis Nielsen not be mentally unwell? Yeah, there were arguments about whether he was or wasn't. And I thought that was fascinating. So like the geek I am, I then went to the medical library at Edinburgh University in Scotland and got a huge textbook of forensic psychiatry out and read it. And I was like, this is just absolutely fascinating. And I decided at that point, that's what I wanted. To do. And yeah, so tha- that's the reason I went into it. And it wasn't just I saw Silence of the Lambs, I thought serial killers were like interesting. That that sparked that interest, but I also really enjoyed working with people in difficult situations and difficult circumstances
4:31 Speaker 00 and trying to trying to take things forward. Yeah.
4:34 Speaker 02 I do love that Silence of the Lambs plays a role in your origin story.
4:38 Speaker 00 Yes.
4:38 Speaker 02 And the issue of criminal responsibility is interesting because we do have a question that relates to that, that we'll get to later. Um, but let's start with demographics. We had quite a few questions come in on the demographics of serial killers. So let's start there. Danielle asks, why are men overrepresented as serial killers? Is it that they are physically stronger and therefore more able to kill? Or is there something to do with brain structure or hormones or something else?
5:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, like like all things, it's probably a combination of those things with other things. I mean, the thing is, men aren't just overrepresented amongst serial killers, they're overrepresented amongst violent offenders, they're overrepresented amongst people who commit homicide, they're overrepresented amongst people who commit sex offenses. So, I mean, I think you've got to look at the questions to do with why are men more likely to be violent and aggressive? And I think you have to look at all the different levels. So, you know, tha- there's clearly something biological about men, you know, like men have got a Y chromosome, women have got an X chromosome or two X chromosomes and have got an X and a Y. There there are differences
5:49 Speaker 00 in brain development, there are differences probably related to testosterone. We know that testosterone is related to to aggression and dominance in males. But then there's also issues to do with socialization, development of boys', uh, social and cultural expectations of men. And then, important point that's been made about physical strength. So when we look at how males and females kill when they do kill, for example, men use strangulation, whereas females don't tend to use strangulation.
6:24 Speaker 02 Right.
6:24 Speaker 00 So for example, if you look at sexual homicides.
6:26 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
6:27 Speaker 00 You don't get many sexual homicides committed by women, but when you do get them, um, they're often associated with shooting, whereas in in men, even in America, um, sexual homicide is much more likely to be associated with strangulation.
6:41 Speaker 02 Right.
6:41 Speaker 00 And that's. There is this thing called the kind of, um, I think it's called the physical strength hypothesis. But also, you need to think about what are these offences about for the perpetrator. You know, for men, when they commit crimes like this, they want to get. This is horrible to think about. They wanna get up close and personal with the victims. Whereas women, you know, it's a classic thing, but I think it bears up is that, you know, there's. A number of females who commit serial murder who poison their victims. And that's, you know, very hands off.
7:12 Speaker 02 I just wanna go back to something you said at the beginning of this answer, um. I would have thought testosterone plays a huge role in it, but you also mentioned the Y chromosome potentially. What would, what would the Y chromosome have to do with this?
7:24 Speaker 00 The difference between males and females genetically is, you know, women have two. Well, most of the time, women have two X chromosomes and men have an X and a Y chromosome. So, all the things that come intrinsically when we're born. That are to do with being male versus female are all to do with that, because that's the only difference.
7:47 Speaker 02 All right, another demographic question. Maya asks, I've noticed that many well-known serial killers are white men. Often driven by sexual gratification. Is it true that most serial killers are Caucasian?
7:59 Speaker 00 Look, I think, you know, there, there used to be a thing that all serial killers were white. That's clearly not the case. If you look in other countries, um, you know, so there are serial killers, for example, I know of cases in South Africa. Where they're committed by black men. You know, I know of serial killers from China, Korea, India. So you get serial killers of all races. Uh, one of the things that does seem to hold up is that most serial killing is interracial.
8:31 Speaker 02 To people killing within their own race?
8:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:33 Speaker 02 Okay.
8:34 Speaker 00 Uh, especially sexual serial killing.
8:37 Speaker 00 And that might basically be because people tend to be sexually attracted to people of the same race. So if you're developing sexual fantasies about hurting or killing people, that's going to be towards people who you're attracted to. So so one of the things we found when we looked at serial sexual murder in Australia is they were all committed by white men against white victims. Even though we did have some indigenous and non-white people who were committing sexual murder, none of the serial sexual murderers were were non-white.
9:25 Speaker 02 Moving on, we also heard from an American listener who wants to know, what would mass shooters be considered? Are they technically serial killers as well, or are they different?
9:36 Speaker 00 I think they're very different. If you look at people who commit mass shootings, they they build up to do this one terrible thing at a point in time. Sometimes they die themselves, either at their own hands or at the hand of law enforcement. And quite often, they're driven by an ideology. That doesn't mean they're driven by religion or religious ideology. It might be a very personal ideology.
10:05 Speaker 02 Like a hatred of women. We've had incel mass shooters.
10:09 Speaker 00 A hatred of women, a hatred of racial groups? Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's a whole area in terms of what we call grievance-fuelled lone act of violence. And also, mass shooting actually overlaps to some extent with people who commit atrocities as part of extremist organisations or terrorist organisations. So there's a bit of an overlap. But when you look at people who commit mass shootings or or mass stabbings, as we have in other countries, there's a whole different dynamic about that. Because it's it's often to do with targeting a particular group or getting, you know, the person.
10:50 Speaker 00 Feeling intense hatred and alienation from society. Or wanting to to get uh attention for their cause, or perhaps wanting to kind of terrorise.
11:03 Speaker 02 Um.
11:03 Speaker 00 Whereas with serial killers, some of them are operating over a decade, longer than a decade. It's not about this build up towards one event, it's about, they derive some sort of satisfaction or pleasure from killing. And they put that into effect because they don't have feelings for other people.
11:23 Speaker 02 Um.
11:24 Speaker 00 And they're also able to get away with it. You you're never gonna get away with a mass shooting.
11:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:28 Speaker 00 But that's not the purpose of a mass shooter, so that there are a number of differences, um, different things that drive the two behaviours.
11:36 Speaker 02 That's interesting, cause that kind of answers a question I had after our initial chat, an episode went out, which is that. You know, the question we asked in that episode was, why are there fewer serial killers now than there were before? And, you know, we talked about DNA, we talked about surveillance, we talked about all sorts of reasons. And I wondered whether it was the case that people who might have become serial killers in another era. Might be more inclined to become mass shooters now because it's easier in a sense to pull off. Like, we talked about how people get caught after one kill and they don't get get a chance to go on to become serial killers. And so if the goal is to kill people, maybe, you know, mass shooting does that job, you know, sadly more effectively.
12:18 Speaker 02 And I wondered specifically with the sexually motivated serial killers, you now have incel type mass shooters. I wondered if there was an overlap, but it sounds like the motivations are quite different that you're talking about.
12:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. And and actually, it's very, the thing with incel ideology and incel thinking. Is that you you don't necessarily come across that in people who commit serial murder.
12:43 Speaker 02 Hmm.
12:44 Speaker 00 We haven't got much research on it, but again, that would indicate that even though there is some overlaps in terms of hatred of women. There are other things going on that means that when they're violent, the violence comes out in particular ways.
12:57 Speaker 02 Right.
12:58 Speaker 00 The other thing you find with a lot of serial killers, particularly sexual serial killers, they start doing it when they're very young. I mean, I I I know of people who started committing sexual violence and even sexual homicide in their teens.
13:12 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
13:13 Speaker 00 And then continue. So serial killing seems to be. A kind of a a career.
13:20 Speaker 02 Hmm.
13:20 Speaker 00 As opposed to mass shooting, which is an event. And I think that and there there were therefore kind of key differences between what would make someone want to make a career out of killing versus wanting to get, as you said, potentially more killings kind of done.
13:43 Speaker 02 You mentioned a lack of feeling for others a moment ago, and we've had a few questions on empathy, so I want to ask you about empathy. Daniel asks, where does a lack of empathy come from? Is it nature, nurture, or both? And if nature plays a part, have we been able to isolate a gene mutation that might be responsible?
14:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's a great question. Let's think about two situations where people might lack empathy. One is psychopathy, where people are callous. Now, that's classically seen as people who they can easily put themselves into someone else's shoes. But they don't have feelings for other people. Yeah, most of us, if we hurt someone, one, we can pick up that we've hurt someone based on their emotions, and two, that feels horrible and that stops us doing it. Now, that empathy deficit that we come across in people who might be seen as psychopathic, we know there is importantly a a high genetic component to that.
14:46 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:47 Speaker 00 And we actually know about some areas of the brain that seem to be functioning differently. Now, this is going to be a massive oversimplification, but there's a part of the brain called the amygdala, which is on the inside of your temporal lobe. And we know, for example, that in people who are are callous or lacking empathy because they're psychopathic, that doesn't light up in the same way that it normally lights up in other people in these situations.
15:17 Speaker 00 Now, interestingly, you think of another situation. Children who are mistreated and abused when they're younger. Often develop an overactive amygdala, rather than underact, because it's a threat system. And actually, there's, you know, broadly, there's two different types of people who are chronically antisocial and aggressive. There are psychopathic individuals where their systems turn down.
15:39 Speaker 02 Right.
15:40 Speaker 00 And then there's people who are impulsive, emotionally unstable, where their systems turned up.
15:45 Speaker 02 Hmm.
15:46 Speaker 00 So, um, it's interesting, because some people are like, okay, it's clearly. Childhood abuse that causes psychopathy, unless you've got the underlying genetic and brain disposition. You're not going to turn into someone who's callous. Now, having said that. Not everyone who's got the disposition to be callous becomes callous, because all that having no empathy does. Is it means that you just do what you want to get what you want. Now, if you grow up in an environment. Where you can get the things that you need or the things you want without hurting people.
16:18 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
16:18 Speaker 00 Then despite not having feelings for other people, you're not going to necessarily hurt people. But if you grow up in an environment where you see dad getting what he wants all the time by being aggressive and being violent. If you've got no empathy, you're gonna go down that road.
16:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, and so just to come back to the question of whether empathy is genetic, inherited or nurture, a result of nurture, it sounds like. As with many things, it's a bit of both.
16:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, but I think the inherited brain bit is really important. Whether it actually then becomes violence, I think depends on other factors, but you have to have the inherent predisposition.
16:58 Speaker 02 Okay.
16:59 Speaker 00 You know, you you can't take a child who's functioning completely fine in the first years of life. And then turn them into someone who has.
17:08 Speaker 02 Right.
17:09 Speaker 00 A complete callous lack of empathy. You can't abuse a child into being. Psychopathic.
17:17 Speaker 02 Okay.
17:17 Speaker 00 They don't have the predisposition.
17:19 Speaker 02 The final question on empathy I'll ask is, um, one person wrote in to ask, are there effective treatment methodologies to establish some sense of empathy? Or is it a lost cause?
17:31 Speaker 00 Um, look, the research evidence at the moment is if you've got that callous lack of empathy as an adult and you've already been committing violence, you can't change that.
17:43 Speaker 02 Oh.
17:43 Speaker 00 And so if you go back, people used to try and help people develop empathy, teach people empathy, do exercise and treatment where you try to like see the impact on your victim. And with people who have that psychopathic lack of empathy, it just doesn't work. You can't suddenly rewire someone's brain. And so when you're working with people who might be psychopathic, what you do is you don't try and do that. It's partly about the fact these people do what they want to do for themselves. They're very self-centered. When I'm working with people who have those traits, what I'm trying to do is get them focused on wanting to do things that don't involve hurting other people.
18:24 Speaker 00 Sometimes people call this working with that self-centeredness, but trying to get people to turn that towards things that aren't gonna harm people.
18:33 Speaker 02 What else can they do? What would be the other thing that you can turn them towards?
18:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, so let me give you a really simple example. So this is a man that I worked with in the UK, he's passed away now, I won't say his name obviously or anything, but he'd committed multiple violent and sex offenses. I think it was only by luck really that he hadn't killed anyone. And when he came out, for the first time ever in his life, he had a horrendous background. He had a nice place to live in the middle of a nice city. He had a nice sofa, he had a nice TV. Now, some people will go, these criminals, they don't deserve all that stuff. But actually, he was like, wow, this is amazing. You know, for the first of my life, I like this. And, and he actually sat down with it, I won't swear and use the exact words he said.
19:21 Speaker 00 But I sit down with him, he said, I'm not doing it for you, I'm not doing it for the effing police, I'm not doing it for the effing social workers, I'm definitely not doing it for my victims because they deserve everything they got.
19:31 Speaker 02 God.
19:32 Speaker 00 I'm doing this for myself. And I was like, that's fine, if you wanna carry on for yourself having a nice place to live, you know, I'm not gonna change you, no one was ever gonna change him. By the time I worked with him, he was forty five years old. And some people will hear him saying that and go, oh, he, you know. But but surely if we can just turn it around and make him want to do with the victims, like, they're not going to do that. And that's why when I see these true crime shows and and when he was facing trial, he showed no remorse and no empathy.
20:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:02 Speaker 00 And I'm like, uh, yeah, of course he didn't, you know, like, if if he did, he wouldn't have done this in the first place.
20:09 Speaker 02 Right.
20:16 Speaker 02 For the next few questions, I wonder if we can do a couple more like quick fire answers just so we can get through some. Um, on treatment with sexually motivated killers, Helen asks, apart from chemical castration for sexually motivated killers and presumably other violent or serial sexual offenders, are there effective rehabilitation strategies for serial killers, those either motivated by sexual factors or others like the angel of death type of killer?
20:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, look, there may be, but because of the nature of these individuals, we're always going to want to keep a very close eye on them. What we know in general with violent sex offenders, there are programs, psychological treatment programs that we can use that reduce reoffending. So in general, with violent sex offenders, you can treat individuals and reduce the recidivism rate. The problem you've got with people who commit serial murder is that they are particularly dangerous individuals. If I told you that these programs, you know, reduce reoffending by 50%, you'd be like, okay, that that's great. Now, what does that mean for a specific serial killer who's already killed 10 people?
21:25 Speaker 00 If we've got a program that might do that, is that good enough to actually say that that person's been treated? We're not going to cure these people. So I I think even with serious violence sex offenders, you have to do a combination of psychological treatment, sometimes pharmacological treatment, but also ongoing support, supervision and monitoring. And with individuals who've committed multiple homicides, you're never going to not supervise and monitor them closely. And there will be some people who just aren't going to be safe to release ever.
21:59 Speaker 02 Wendy asks, what do you make of the theory that decriminalisation of abortion in New York reduced the crime rate eighteen or so years later? This idea, I think, is what was popularised by Freakonomics.
22:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Actually, after the last show, I read a bit about other things that people think might be responsible for the reduction in crime. This idea that if you have less unwanted children, then you're not going to end up with as many damaged individuals. I think it's plausible that that might have contributed, but like all of these things, I think it's going to have contributed alongside other things. It's a bit like the lead crime hypothesis. I read another paper on that that said, basically, if it has contributed, it's contributed a tiny bit, yeah? So all these things may have contributed a little bit, but I don't know to what extent.
22:52 Speaker 02 Okay, finally, you've talked a little bit about how you approach your job, and a couple of people asked questions related to how you do your job, so I'll put these to you. Erin wants to know, when someone commits a crime, wouldn't the individual be deemed mentally unwell, as it's not a normal thing to do, excluding some rare outliers such as self-defence or accidents? If none of these behaviours are normal, how do psychologists and psychiatrists determine who is criminally insane?
23:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, in terms of criminal responsibility, we tend to call it the mental impairment rather than insanity now, just because of terminology. But really, to get that type of finding, you have to have a very severe condition. You usually have to have something like schizophrenia, psychosis, a severe brain injury, or a quite marked intellectual disability. So these are conditions that, regardless of whether someone's committed a crime or not, we recognise these as being serious conditions that affect someone's ability to function, someone's ability to behave. So, and sometimes serial killers have those conditions. But most people who commit serial murder...
24:03 Speaker 00 Because they enjoy killing or they want to kill for pleasure. Even though that's statistically abnormal, we wouldn't see that as a severe mental illness. Now, what you're now getting to is the realm of people who have things like personality disorder or sexual deviation. Now, thinking of personality disorder and sexual deviation, unlike schizophrenia, you you kind of either have schizophrenia or you don't. Whereas with personality problems and sexual deviance, it's a spectrum. All of us are somewhere on that spectrum. And at certain points, for example, with psychopathy, everyone is somewhere on the psychopathy spectrum. Most of us aren't at the top end.
24:44 Speaker 00 If you're at the top end and you're callous, then you might, uh, it might predispose you to serial killing. All of us, to some extent, and again, this might sound weird, but are sexually into things that might be kinky or coercive. Yeah.
24:59 Speaker 02 Right.
25:00 Speaker 00 But most of us aren't at at the point where we're going to actually force and hurt other people.
25:05 Speaker 02 Um.
25:06 Speaker 00 And most of us aren't at the end of the spectrum where we want to kill people for sexual pleasure. So these things are a matter of degree. Now, some people go, well, at the top end, those people are clearly insane or mad. But what we what we do as psychiatrists, psychologists, they look, these people have uh abnormal personalities and abnormal sexual functioning, but these aren't mental illnesses.
25:30 Speaker 02 Right.
25:30 Speaker 00 So that's the kind of the way that we view them. Otherwise, everyone who does anything that's terrible or bad is not responsible.
25:39 Speaker 02 Right.
25:39 Speaker 00 And you you you take that very, you go, well, no one who kills some someone's responsible for killing them.
25:44 Speaker 02 Hmm. To finish, Charlotte asks, in the serial killers episode, you described your approach to maintaining positive relationships with offenders in order to work with them effectively. How do you go about maintaining unconditional positive regard with the most challenging individuals? As a budding mental health professional, I would love to know if you have any tips for the rest of us.
26:06 Speaker 00 Um, I think.
26:09 Speaker 00 What you have to do is really be focused on them as an individual you're interested in. Uh you've got to be also focused on the fact you want to stop this behaviour happening. And as I've said, by judging them or having this kind of gut reaction to them, that's not going to help you stop the behaviour happening. And also, one of the things is, no one chooses to have lack of empathy. No one chooses to be abused as a child. Now, people choose whether they're going to do bad things or not.
26:45 Speaker 02 Right.
26:45 Speaker 00 But one of the things I find helpful is I can empathise for this person's earlier development into what they've become. But also, the other thing is I know by actually having good, positive relationships with the people I work with, I'm much more likely to get the kind of results that I need to get. So all of those things help me kind of have a positive relationship. It's not necessarily unconditional positive regard. I I've got a colleague who talks about it and says it's unconditional neutral regard.
27:20 Speaker 02 Okay.
27:21 Speaker 00 Because you you don't want to become best friends, but that's not what you do with anyone. You know, like, forget about forensic or criminal work as a therapist. You're not trying to be best friends with your patient. And I think that the other thing I mentioned in the last episode is I think there's some people who are more able to do this because they can keep a safe distance, you know, not not be too detached, but not get too close to it. And I think if you can't do that, then it's not necessarily the work for you.
27:49 Speaker 02 Dr Darjee, it's been fascinating talking to you again. Thank you so much for coming back on.
27:53 Speaker 00 Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me again. And yeah, hopefully people have found that interesting.
28:00 Speaker 02 That is Melbourne-based forensic psychiatrist Dr Rajan Darjee. And that is it for our very first episode of All in the Mind Mailbag Edition. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. We literally could not have done this episode without you, so thank you. We're going to see how this show goes, how many people listen, what kind of feedback we get, and then we'll decide whether it's worth doing these mailbag shows more regularly. If you have any feedback and you want to share it, you can email us on [email protected] . We always love hearing what you have to say, but just note, we get a lot of messages, so we can't always reply, but we do always read your messages.
28:48 Speaker 02 Thanks to senior producer James Bullen, producer Rose Kerr, and sound engineer John Jacobs. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I will catch you next time.
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