Pod Insights All In The Mind Is clutter making you feel bad? About this episode When was the last time you decluttered? Was it a satisfying process, or did it fill you with dread?
Where you sit on the clutter spectrum differs person to person, so today, we investigate if decluttering is worth the hype.
Why can it be so hard for some people? Could there be a way to reduce clutter before it builds up?
And what's the relationship between hoarding disorder and clutter?
If you want to hear more about our relationship with objects, check out Why do we love collecting? https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/why-do-we-love-collecting/105223974
Guests:
Professor Melissa NorbergPsychologistMacquarie University
Professor Jessica GrishamPsychologistUniversity of New South Wales
Dr Seung Hwan (Mark) LeeProfessor and Associate Dean of Engagement & InclusionTed Rogers School of Management at Toronto Metropolitan University
Dr Omar FaresAssistant Professor in the Faculty of BusinessUniversity of New Brunswick
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarReporter/producer: Rose KerrSenior producer: James BullenSound engineer: Simon BranthwaiteYou can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.
More information:
Understanding 'underconsumption core': How a new trend is challenging consumer culture https://theconversation.com/understanding-underconsumption-core-how-a-new-trend-is-challenging-consumer-culture-235417Breaking up with belongings: a pilot randomized controlled trial of an unguided web-based program to reduce overconsumption https://researchers.mq.edu.au/en/publications/breaking-up-with-belongings-a-pilot-randomized-controlled-trial-oNudging society toward more adaptive approaches to material possessions: Harnessing implicit approaches to reduce overconsumption and excessive saving https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X24001465?via%3DihubTry This: declutter your work from home space https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/this-working-life/try-this-declutter-your-workspace-at-home-/105830182
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0:08 Speaker 01 There's a lot to keep up with, and that's where Quick Smart comes in. Each week I chat with my cleverest colleagues about all the things you've been wondering. Like, are dictators taking over the world? When did all our clothes become plastic? And what's actually in this non-alcoholic beverage I'm holding? Just give me Shabon Marin 10 minutes each week. I'll be quick, you'll be smarter. It's Quick Smart. Find us on the ABC Listen app.
0:38 Speaker 02 Do you consider yourself a maximalist? Someone who enjoys having lots of stuff in your space? Little trinkets, pictures, books, et cetera? Or are you more of a minimalist?
0:50 Speaker 03 I would say I am relatively clutter-free. So I can let things pile up for a week or so, but then I enjoy organising. I just spent the whole weekend organising my son's room, which he may not have liked.
1:12 Speaker 04 I would say I'm fairly in-between. I do really love reading and books, so I have probably a few too many books that I'm paring down, but I definitely wouldn't call myself a minimalist.
1:24 Speaker 02 Where you sit on the spectrum of clutter can be a point of tension amongst family and housemates and even coworkers. But there's probably been a point in your life where you thought, wow, that person has just way too much stuff. Or maybe you've even thought that about yourself.
1:41 Speaker 02 I'm Sana Qadar, this is All in the Mind, and today producer Rose Kerr joins me in the studio to talk about clutter and decluttering, and why it can be so hard to get rid of our stuff, even if we have too much. Hi, Rose.
1:54 Speaker 05 Hi, Sana.
1:55 Speaker 02 So last time you were on the show, we were talking about collecting.
1:58 Speaker 05 Yes, and we talked about why people love collecting and how it differs from hoarding disorder. And following that episode, we got a listener email asking about decluttering. So Ray wrote, "I'd love to suggest the topic of decluttering as a sister episode to this one."
2:13 Speaker 02 It's a good idea. I mean, it's a pretty universal topic. I don't know anyone who hasn't been irritated by clutter at some point or another.
2:20 Speaker 05 Yeah, 100%. And Ray also had questions about the morality of minimalism and how he might tackle the idea of influencing people to buy less. Heaps of great ideas I'm really keen to get into today, but I thought the best place to start might be by talking about the power of decluttering broadly.
2:42 Speaker 05 I'll be honest with you, I quite like clutter. I enjoy having my favourite trinkets and belongings on display and having lots of colour fill my home. I probably fall in the collector maximalist basket rather than the minimalist basket, and I definitely find decluttering hard. Plenty of people do enjoy decluttering, and everyone from Marie Kondo to my own mum say it's good for you. But is it really?
3:10 Speaker 03 I think decluttering is helpful. So if you have so many objects in your house or in your office at work, it can make it hard to get things done.
3:24 Speaker 05 This is Melissa Norberg. She's a professor of psychology at Macquarie University who specialises in hoarding and OCD.
3:32 Speaker 03 If you declutter and you can easily find what you need and easily sit down and relax on your sofa, then that is going to be good for you and the people around you.
3:42 Speaker 05 Makes sense. But before you get too excited and throw away all your belongings, it's not all good news.
3:49 Speaker 03 I think the evidence might lag behind the enthusiasm, in a sense.
3:53 Speaker 05 This is Dr Jessica Grisham from the University of New South Wales. She is also a professor of psychology like Melissa, and they've worked together on a bunch of projects related to OCD and hoarding.
4:05 Speaker 03 There is some evidence that for people who have...
4:08 Speaker 04 Tendencies towards excessive saving and excessive buying that reducing their clutter improves their wellbeing, reduces depression and anxiety and makes them have a higher quality of life. But for those of us not in a clinical population, I think there's much more scant evidence. So I think anecdotally, it's really easy to relate to the idea that high levels of clutter make people feel overwhelmed and that if you reduce your clutter, you feel a little more mental clarity. But I think some of that experimental work is still in progress.
4:42 Speaker 05 Jessica says the anecdotal association between minimalism and improving your wellbeing can have a flip side, leading people to make moral judgments about clutter.
4:53 Speaker 04 When social media presents this idea, or pop culture in general, that we all need to lead an extremely minimalist lifestyle and have this perfect flow of efficiency and not an ascaric of things that we don't need around, it creates possibly, paradoxically creates a little bit more stress to be really perfect in our minimalism and to achieve a completely clutter-free lifestyle. It becomes much like all the other Instagram around exercise and eating and other lifestyle things where it's marketed as this achievable ideal and then people feeling a bit down on themselves if they fall short of that ideal. So I would caution against the idea that it is going to be the panacea that fixes all our woes.
5:38 Speaker 04 I do think that there is a human tendency that we have evolved to be attached to certain objects and it's okay to be attached to certain objects that bring us meaning and bring us joy. But if you start feeling kind of overwhelmed by the amount of stuff in your house and discouraged and anxious about it, then it can be quite freeing.
6:00 Speaker 05 If you've ever had to go through boxes of memories or belongings of a lost loved one, you likely know how hard decluttering can be. Because sometimes, objects represent who we are, and it's hard to say goodbye to those things.
6:15 Speaker 04 And those kinds of emotional attachments, that they remind them of people that are important to them, they're really hard to counter and really hard to think about other ways to have those relationships and express your identity that doesn't require hanging on to those objects. So I think that's like that stickiness of that emotional attachment and that feeling people have, a lot of negative feelings sometimes letting those things go. They might feel guilty or sad. You know, sometimes people have relatives who've passed away and they're hanging on to these memories through their stuff. So that's just a really powerful emotion to go through. And sometimes it's easier just to avoid and procrastinate.
6:53 Speaker 03 You're going through your stuff, and then you're like, oh, I remember when I bought this, or I remember when I used to wear this, or I remember it jogs this memory I have. I don't want to get rid of that because I want those memories.
7:05 Speaker 05 Here's Melissa Norberg again.
7:07 Speaker 03 It can also be hard decluttering if you easily get distracted. So you might get enmeshed in those memories and forget that you're supposed to be decluttering. Or there just may be so much stuff that it's overwhelming and you can't figure out where to start. And then it can be hard to figure out where everything needs to go. So if you have limited space in your house, trying to figure out, ah, where can I put things? And then it can just feel so daunting that you might want to give up.
7:35 Speaker 05 And beyond getting lost in memories or just struggling to find a new home for your items, Melissa says another reason why clutter might build up is because of mental health concerns. And this does include hoarding disorder, but more on that in a moment.
7:50 Speaker 03 People can get a lot of clutter built up in their homes when they're depressed. So not feeling motivated or having the energy to clean up and tidy up. Individuals also experience issues with substance use that might lead to clutter building up in the home. Individuals with schizophrenia can also experience a substantial amount of clutter in their home. ADHD can make people more distractible and that can, you know, pose an issue with decluttering. And so as a mental health professional, we always need to figure out why the clutter is there to make sure that we give the right intervention to help with the clutter.
8:31 Speaker 02 It's interesting because I feel like sometimes I'm in a mood where decluttering is really easy. It feels really good to be letting go of stuff. And other times, if I'm kind of being forced by my husband to like go through my clothes and get rid of stuff I don't wear anymore, it's quite hard because I see something I bought in my twenties and I'm like, that's attached to a memory for me and I kind of want to hang on to that.
8:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, a hundred percent. And for me, I really related to the idea of decluttering being hard when you don't have enough space. Like when I moved off campus after university, the thought of actually decluttering made me so stressed that I just kind of boxed everything up and shipped it off to mum and dad's. I'm so sorry.
9:08 Speaker 02 They've got your clutter now.
9:09 Speaker 05 They really do. But beyond the reasons we've talked about already, decluttering can be really challenging for someone with hoarding disorder.
9:16 Speaker 02 Yeah. And so when does clutter become a symptom of something more serious like hoarding disorder?
9:22 Speaker 05 So the DSM five says the main criteria is difficulty discarding possessions. And that difficulty stems from emotional distress or feeling like you really need those objects even though you don't. And Professor Melissa Norberg says the clutter reaches a point where it stops you from being able to use your living spaces.
9:39 Speaker 03 It needs to impair people's living environments to the extent that they can't use them for what they were naturally intended. So if you think about your living room, its natural intention is to be able to relax. So if you can't sit on the sofa, read a book, watch TV comfortably because there is so much stuff that you're unable to sit on that sofa or even see your TV, then you might meet criteria for hoarding disorder.
10:08 Speaker 05 In terms of its prevalence, Professor Jessica Grisham says it's more common than most people realize, sitting around two to three percent of the population.
10:18 Speaker 04 Whereas OCD is one to 2%, you know, schizophrenia is like 1%. So it, you know, to think about like three people in every hundred coming forward and having clinical levels of hoarding disorder, it's sobering. There's quite a few people and it's partly because it's a hidden problem and people are ashamed and not letting people into their home because of that, that I think it's more undetected cases even than we realise.
10:43 Speaker 05 Hoarding behaviours have long been the fascination of reality TV programmes and documentaries.
10:49 Speaker 06 We meet the extreme hoarders.
10:52 Speaker 05 Listener Ray reflected on this in his email to us, mentioning these kinds of shows portraying hoarding as kind of a grotesque curiosity, whereas decluttering is almost glorified with minimalism being trendy. I've been wondering about this too, so I put it to Jessica Grisham.
11:09 Speaker 04 There's a small part that acknowledges that at least it's bringing this issue to the fore, but for the most part, I think it's quite damaging in terms of focusing on the clutter and being very, eliciting a lot of disgust from people. And I think what you're saying is interesting to me about this moral judgement and this idea of morality that gets intertwined, like cleanliness is godliness. You know, this idea that if you're a minimalist or if your home is really clean and tidy, that makes you somehow a better or more valuable person. And if you have hoarding issues or your home is cluttered, that you are lazy or dirty or, and I think that's probably something that goes back into, you know, deep into
11:52 Speaker 04 human history and the way that people are judged, but it's really time we kind of move past that.
11:57 Speaker 05 Jessica says it's important to remember the real person behind the hoarding disorder.
12:02 Speaker 04 Sometimes they have very severe deprivation in childhood or trauma in childhood, not always as people expect that they didn't have stuff when they were children, but a lot of times that they didn't feel, they didn't have emotional support, going all the way to physical. And emotional abuse and neglect. And kind of understanding those drivers and having a little more compassion for the people is not only, I think, just the right thing as a, you know, as a human to think about, but also is more constructive in terms of getting help for these situations. Because when people feel really stigmatized and shamed, they are not reaching out for help. But it's tricky too, because I think compared to some other disorders, the outcomes of hoarding
12:45 Speaker 04 can impact on neighbors in the community more than other disorders. With hoarding, people understandably get really frustrated when someone has severe hoarding and it's affecting their property and causing them concerns about their own health and safety. So that's very understandable. I think putting people in a, in a kind of like subhuman category is not going to get very much traction in terms of actually addressing this as a community.
13:14 Speaker 05 So, how do you treat hoarding disorder? Well, the first step is making sure the home is safe. Removing stuff that could catch fire or cause a fall. Once basic safety is sorted, a psychologist might look to exposure therapy, facing the challenging emotions that come with decluttering.
13:33 Speaker 04 People with hoarding are particularly feel, experience those negative emotions more intensely and they're more resistant to sitting with negative emotions. We call it intolerant of distress. So if you're particularly feel negative things strongly and you don't feel like you can cope with negative emotions, you're even more likely to avoid dealing with it and throwing things away. So part of what treatment is about is getting people to notice those negative emotions, maybe label them and moving them towards practicing sitting with those negative emotions when they throw things away.
14:05 Speaker 05 Exercises like this might be done individually or in a group setting, giving people the chance to practice discarding objects and processing those feelings.
14:14 Speaker 04 And the more people do it, the more they get comfortable with it, the more they get reinforced for it. The more they can start doing that process in their home. There's also just basic organisational skills and training and also exposure to not acquiring.
14:28 Speaker 05 This is where a psychologist will take clients to op shops or markets, wherever they normally buy things, and encourage them to avoid actually making a purchase.
14:38 Speaker 04 Having them experience urges, maybe handle things they get excited about and want to bring home, and put those things back on the shelf and sit with that feeling of whatever that might be, disappointment or this missed opportunity. So that's one of the key elements is the exposure aspect and the organisation aspect. And there's also some identification of like, what are the thoughts behind it as an individual? Are you thinking about, is this a missed opportunity? Or I'll be able to use this one day? Or this represents who I am? Or if I throw this away, people won't really understand me? Or I'll forget everything about this wonderful trip to Greece if I throw away this souvenir? What are those drivers? And can you pull them out, unpack them a little bit, reexamine them and start to have
15:23 Speaker 04 more flexibility in your thinking instead of just going, yep, I'll forget the trip, back it goes. Start thinking about other ways you might remember the trip or what kinds of things hanging on to those souvenirs is preventing you from going on your next trip. So there's that cognitive work of exploring some of the things that lead you to hang on to stuff.
15:42 Speaker 05 And much like sitting with any friend who's trying to declutter their home, Professor Melissa Norberg says part of her role is to be a support person for someone with hoarding disorder.
15:52 Speaker 04 We might be going through their clothes and I'll try to make light of the situation when it's appropriate. So we might giggle together about the ridiculous things that are saved and that can help.
16:10 Speaker 03 Just to make the experience enjoyable, but to also disassociate those psychological needs from the functional value and just to see, oh yeah, I guess I really don't need this anymore. That was cool in the eighties, but it's not cool anymore. And so I can let it go. It's making time to enjoy the space that is freed up after the clutter goes, relishing in the beauty of a closet after it's organized. And so really seeing for them, what is it they wanted to achieve and making sure they see that that's happened when the decluttering is over.
16:53 Speaker 02 You are listening to All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, producer Rose Kerr is unpacking decluttering. And Rose, we've talked about some of the reasons why it can be hard to get rid of stuff, from depression to just being emotionally attached to certain objects. I feel like sometimes I'm reluctant to let go of things if I think, you know, they're in good working order, they could be useful at some point, even though I'm not using them that frequently, and I don't really want them to end up in landfill.
17:21 Speaker 05 For sure. Like, there's just so much waste in the world. Sometimes you don't feel like contributing more to it. It was really interesting talking to Jessica and Melissa because this belief came up a number of times with their hoarding disorder clients. And I will say, in those cases, they still work through decluttering in a safe way because ultimately that clutter is impacting someone's way of life.
17:42 Speaker 02 What about someone like me, though? Like, I don't have hoarding disorder. Is that a common way to think about things sometimes?
17:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think it is pretty common. I know I hear a lot of conversations about it amongst my friends. And as I explored this topic for this episode, I noticed this concern for the environment, coupled with the cost of living crisis, has driven an interesting trend on social media called underconsumption core.
18:07 Speaker 03 We are in an under-consumption core era.
18:10 Speaker 05 There's always the next best thing. And how long are you going to use it? Under-consumption core comes across as a response to content that leans into over-consumption, like the glamorisation of consumer culture and the lavish lifestyles of influencers. Because this trend encourages you to buy less, so stop in clutter before it takes hold, I wanted to understand it from a business and marketing lens. Like, are we seeing changes in how people spend their money? Or is this just a social media trend? To get to the bottom of it, I spoke to Dr Sun Hwan Mark Lee from the Ted Rogers School of Management in Toronto, Canada, and Dr Omar Fares from the University of New Brunswick, also in Canada. Here's Mark.
18:55 Speaker 07 Rose, I'll share with you something very interesting. In the modern age, we are more aware and educated about sustainability. Yet, in the modern age, we are more wasteful and we're throwing out so much clothing and things than ever before in our lives. And so that's a paradox. How can we be so educated or how can we know so much more about sustainability than ever before? But yet, we are not thinking about the waste that we are producing.
19:27 Speaker 05 Omar and Mark co-wrote an article in The Conversation about under-consumption core, and this is how Omar describes it.
19:34 Speaker 08 So, under-consumption core is a major TikTok trend that happened over the past year or so. And the general idea is the utilisation or increased utilisation of what you already have and minimal new spend on net new items. In essence, this is saving and this kind of champions the idea and actually paints it in a very positive light of minimalism and makes the idea of fragility or strategic fragility almost be a positive virtue as opposed to a negative trait.
20:11 Speaker 05 So people are trying to buy less and are encouraging others to do the same. It's also about being strategic with your purchases.
20:19 Speaker 07 There was a popular trend back where there's a Marie Kondo effect. And one of the things that Marie Kondo talks about is that when you're sort of decluttering, you want to take a look at your T-shirt and say, does this bring me joy? And if it brings you joy, then you keep it. If it does not, you get rid of it. And that whole idea has been existing for quite a while. But the underconsumption trend, the idea and sort of this identity around it has surfaced. And it's different from minimalism. It's different from just spending less or being frugal. It's about spending so that it brings you maximum utility.
20:59 Speaker 05 Speaking of buying less, Professor Jessica Grisham has been considering how he might influence people to do just that through a technique called nudging.
21:09 Speaker 04 So nudging has been examined in lots of different kinds of human behavior and not just in acquisition. It's defined as something that changes the choices available. They call it the choice architecture in a way that influences people's decisions. So a good example of that would be putting fruit at eye level so that people make healthier food choices in like a convenience store.
21:31 Speaker 05 You might be familiar with nudges built into online shopping. Like if you close a website with items still in your shopping cart, you might get a follow-up email from the brand reminding you the items are still there, ready to purchase.
21:44 Speaker 04 So these kinds of things that increase people's tendencies to buy. And so we've been starting to think about how we could use nudges to reduce that kind of online shopping. For example, maybe if you're online browsing something on the internet you're about to shop up, maybe there could be a pop-up instead of urging you to buy. It might say, how often do you think you're going to use this item? Or something like that. I mean, the challenge would be, of course, whether or not corporations would be invested in doing these things, right? There are some corporations who are trying to be more ethical and more green that might be or open to these types of approaches. But anything where you could build in what we call friction, where instead of immediately being able to see an object
22:27 Speaker 04 and it's suddenly on its way to your door, being able to build in a little bit of extra time to reduce that impulsive action and get people to think a little bit more critically and also thinking a little bit more of their longer term goals. So thinking about how we can start doing that, maybe in a more personalised way. And I think for some people that also might be them building their own self nudges onto their system. So perhaps you might add a programme to your computer that when you're shopping, there might be a game that pops up that you do that just adds a little bit of delay before you end up finalising your purchase.
23:01 Speaker 05 Do we know how successful that slowing down is? And if it's actually getting people to buy less?
23:07 Speaker 04 So I think it's a very new space is the short answer. And we don't really know yet. But I think, given everything that's happening so rapidly with social media and with AI, there are going to be more things where people start thinking of how we can not just use these kinds of things for nefarious purposes, but how can we harness it to start getting people to make more careful decisions that are going to reduce overconsumption?
23:32 Speaker 05 Whether you're trying to buy less or reduce the clutter you already have, there's one aspect that has kept coming up in my conversations with Jessica, Melissa, Mark and Omar, and that's reflecting on your values. It seems understanding your values might be key to making these tricky decisions. Here's Mark Lee again.
23:51 Speaker 07 Just because you're going out there buying sustainable goods, but if you're buying massive and massive amounts of them and then throwing them out a year later, then are you actually doing something good for the society? So it really comes down to your values and not just as an individual, but thinking about the society as a whole. And that's part of, you know, why this underconsumption trend is continued to thrive.
24:17 Speaker 05 And Omar Ferraz says being a mindful consumer is all about finding balance.
24:22 Speaker 08 How do we, on a very micro level, go about healthy consumption? It starts off with effectively utilising mental accounting. And that should be driven by value based systems, where you have almost a job for every dollar that goes into your budget. What we've known time and time again, you will tend to spend more mindfully. So add this with Mark's points about the social side. I think we have a whole lot of healthier consumers.
24:56 Speaker 05 This focus on values is key to some of the recent work Melissa Norberg has been doing, combining her expertise in hoarding disorder with her interest in the environment.
25:06 Speaker 03 I got interested in the environment because of hoarding. So when working with individuals who hoard, they'll often say, I can't let this go. It's just going to go to landfill. Or they pick up things that are waiting for the council pickup because they want to rescue them from going to landfill. And so there's a constant environmental theme that researchers and clinicians, for the most part, I think, have just ignored. And this encouraged me to think about, well, if this is part of what's driving hoarding, then we need to harness it and think about, well, how can I help you to actually help the environment? Because keeping these things in your home isn't really helping the environment.
25:50 Speaker 03 If they're not being used and people are going to buy new things when they could maybe borrow what you have.
25:56 Speaker 05 Melissa designed an online program called Breaking Up With Belongings.
26:00 Speaker 03 We all buy stuff that we don't need and hang on to things that we don't need. So I set out to create a program that would help the general public, which includes people who experience compulsive buying or hoarding disorder, to live with less.
26:18 Speaker 05 It's a self-guided program that has animated videos and a digital workbook. It starts out with helping people identify their values.
26:27 Speaker 03 And this is because making changes is always hard, regardless of what it is. And the way to make it easier is to realize why something's important to you. And so the first thing the intervention does is asks people to think about all the things that they value. And so they can realign their behavior if it's gotten off track.
26:49 Speaker 05 So participants reflect on their values and consider how much their actions are meeting them. After that, they set revised goals to meet those values.
26:58 Speaker 03 Then it talks about why we become attached to objects and how this leads to overconsumption because we are using objects for their psychological value.
27:11 Speaker 05 Feedback from Melissa's original trial of the program included that some participants were able to increase their understanding of their emotions and how that influences their shopping and saving behaviors. If you'd like to read more about it, we'll link to Melissa's paper in the show notes.
27:29 Speaker 05 Decluttering, minimalism, overconsumption, underconsumption, waste, personal meaning, values, it is all a lot to balance. To finish up, I wanted to ask Professor Jessica Grisham if she had any thoughts on why this is all so hard for our brains to work through.
27:48 Speaker 04 I think it can be very confusing, but as long as you are getting back in touch with what's important for you and having an individual approach to that, that can be a good guiding light for people. It's a Goldilocks problem really, right? Where we want just right situations. We don't want people who feel like they need to have everything perfect. I think it's going to be like many things where it's just learning the more boring middle road of how to self-regulate and make sure that you're not buying too much stuff, but that you're also becoming obsessed with a minimalist lifestyle to the point that it's overwhelming other things that are important to you. But generally, I feel like we're probably at bigger risk of overconsumption for most people, right? Whether you have hoarding or not, the rate at which we're consuming resources and goods,
28:34 Speaker 04 I think is probably, that's the bigger push right now, is how we can all reel it back a little bit and start consuming less and focusing more on other important things to us.
28:49 Speaker 02 That is Jessica Grisham from the University of New South Wales. You also heard from Melissa Norberg from Macquarie University, Sun Hwan Mark Lee, based at the Ted Rogers School of Management in Toronto, and Omar Fares from the University of New Brunswick. Thanks also to our listener Ray for suggesting this topic. This episode was reported and produced by Rose Kerr. Thank you also to senior producer James Bullen and sound engineer Simon Branthwaite. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time.
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