Rachel Entrekin Runs On Joy: How She Won The Cocodona 250 Outright By Letting Go Of The Outcome

Rachel Entrekin is a professional ultra runner and three-time Cocodona 250 champion who just won the race outright. This conversation explores the mindset behind that feat. We discuss her shift from chasing outcomes to chasing joy, her "why not me?" self-belief, an unexpected encounter on the final climb, and her road back from an eating disorder. Along the way, she reminds us how much more we're all capable of than we believe. Rachel is a bright light. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com Mill: Try Mill risk-free for 90 days + get $75 off👉🏼https://www.mill.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Freaks of Nature: Save 20% with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.freaksofnature.com LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL AG1: Get the Welcome Kit + D3 + K2 + Flavor sampler pack FREE ($126 in gifts)👉🏼https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  There's 400 people, and you're all just trying to make it to Flagstaff. You're battling the weather, you're battling fatigue, wildlife, you're battling all the uncertainty that comes with going that far.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  The one and only Rich Lenterkin. The first woman ever to win the entire field at the Coca-Dona 250.

• 1:21Speaker 03

  One of the most absolutely mind-boggling athletic feats of 2026.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Things got really hard physically. You can choose the attitude that you want to have. I did not have a single placement goal, I did not have a time goal. Those were my goals, to have a better attitude at the finish line. If I choose to be grateful to the experience itself, I'm going to perform better, no matter what. Why can't I be the one leading? Why not just take what I've earned?

• 1:53Rich Roll?

  All right, Rachel, it's so good to finally meet you. I'm so excited to have you here. For people that don't know, I just want to set the stage. You just won this crazy race called Cokerdona 250. It's the third time in a row that you've won it, but this time you ran seven hours faster than last year?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I guess so. I don't know.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Fifty-six hours. You not only won the women's race, you won the race outright. You beat all the men. I think you beat Killian Corf by over an hour, the men's champion, who also broke the men's record. How did you do this? How did you pull off this unbelievable feat?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Um, well, it has been three years in the making because the first year I did Cokerdona, it was not as easy as this time was.

• 2:43Rich Roll?

  It was easier to go seven hours faster this year.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I guess. It's all relative, right? Um, but yeah, I, you know, my first year, I didn't know how nutrition worked. I didn't know how to sleep. I didn't know what the course was like, so I didn't know how to pace on it. I had just heard a lot of things about, you know, the first 35 miles are really hard, so you have to go slow. And I, you know, I didn't know anything, and so I listened to those, and I paced inappropriately. I didn't fuel enough. I bonged really hard at about the halfway point, and then I had to take about three hours off the course just to get my life together. And then, yeah, and then I did too much salt, which you can do, and it's terrible. So I wound up throwing up

• 3:27Speaker 01

  for like 10 hours as I'm going at a half a mile per hour pace for 10 hours. And then, you know, finally got my stuff together, died on the last climb. So there was a, the second year I did it, there was a lot to improve.

• 3:41Rich Roll?

  And you still won?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  I still won. Yeah, but it's very, it's very different than it was three years ago.

• 3:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Um, now, because we just, we have more information, so people, and people can train better. We have so much more knowledge about fueling and how to do it well, and sleeping, and how to be efficient. Um, but yeah, and so the second year, I figured, well, if I improve my nutrition, I'll...

• 4:03Speaker 01

  At least saved myself five hours. Um, and I wound up, I think, beating my time by nine hours. So I had a nine hour improvement.

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  Nine hour PR.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, which was pretty cool.

• 4:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Um, I did, I got, I think, fourth overall that year. Eder Ramirez passed me going up the last climb and it was actually really wonderful because we just like high fived and hugged and I wasn't even mad. This year, going into it, I actually didn't know how I was going to beat my time last year. I thought I did a pretty good job last year.

• 4:34Rich Roll?

  So, other than dialing in your nutrition and getting super intentional about that, what were the other changes that you made that account for that?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  This year?

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  Leap in performance, yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  I have pretty much dialed down how my crew should operate and who I want to be on that crew. So, I work with Precision Fueling and Hydration. They're one of my big sponsors and they were really interested in working with this race specifically. So they sent their whole team out and they sent my sports scientist, her name is Emily. And she just is a wizard with fueling. We've, this is the second race she's crewed me at. And she just gives me what I need and it's my job to eat it. And like, that is our transaction.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  And that's based upon the work that you were doing throughout the year to figure out how to solve that equation.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, with her specifically.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  And so you offload all of those decisions onto her and she just basically takes care of it and says, eat this, drink this.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  She puts the gas in the car. Um, which is, I, I just have no idea. It's all witchcraft. I don't understand how any of that works, so.

• 5:41Rich Roll?

  It's also super personal. Like, what works for you isn't going to work for the other person. But I did read that you were taking in something like 60 grams of carbohydrates and somewhere between 300 and 800 milliliters of fluid every hour on the hour.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 5:57Rich Roll?

  And that's a combination of the Precision Nutrition and Hydration, but also all these beige foods. Like, you were eating a lot more real food throughout.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And I, I think mostly that. Is just to, there's a lot of sweet, like, everything is really sweet.

• 6:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  With sports nutrition for the most part. Um, cause it's easy to digest and it's easy on your palate, but eventually you kind of get tired of

• 6:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  So beige.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  That's when the barfing starts.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I counteract barfing with beige.

• 6:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Um, beige helps. So.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  Counteract barfing with beige.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:31Rich Roll?

  That's like its own mantra.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I should put it on a t-shirt.

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, the videos of you, uh, approaching the finish that went viral all across the world were insane because you looked so fresh. It looked like you were just starting out, like no one would have thought. You weren't even, like, your kit wasn't even dirty.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  I tasted clothes.

• 6:51Rich Roll?

  It looked like, it looked like, wait, this looks like the start of the race. And, you know, Killian Corth was like, yeah, take a look at what I look like near the end. And he's all hunched over and, and, and you looked so fresh. It was un, that smile on your face and, you know, all your, your family and your friends and your teammates, like all running with you. And that was like this spark of inspiration that literally just traveled all across the world. And you became this viral.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:20Rich Roll?

  Sensation, like this relatively, like very successful, but, you know, in the grand scheme of things, like obscure athlete suddenly is the person that everybody is talking about, which in addition to just, you know, winning this race and achieving this incredible feat must have been very kind of like bewildering and strange for you.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  It definitely was. I had a little bit of practice last year with this phenomenon, I guess, because last year I also got elevated after my finish at this race, but nothing like this year. I remember last year finishing the race, turning on my phone, or I had my phone on airplane mode. Um, and turned it off airplane mode and all of my Instagram DMs and stuff, I just, my phone crashed immediately. It just crashed.

• 8:07Rich Roll?

  It was too mu.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  It was too much.

• 8:09Rich Roll?

  Literally crashed the phone.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  It crashed my phone. So this year I had the foresight to give my socia's to one, a person on my crew. Like that was his job was just, you're in charge of social media. Cause I have a feeling. I didn't, I didn't expect this, but I was like, I expect something. I mean, you have Courtney in the race, you have Meg Eckert in the race, you have Heather Jackson in this race. There's a ton of, and that's, I mean, that's just the women. Like, there's also all these huge, like, multi-day men who are doing it as well. And so I figured there would be a lot going on, on the internet. But yeah, even, I just, it was insane to

• 8:45Speaker 01

  turn on my phone and be like, holy crap, I have 130,000 new followers over the course of three days. Three days. And it, yeah, so it was definitely, it was definitely wild.

• 8:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times, ESPN, like, everybody was covering this. And it's not as if, I mean, Cocaldonna has become a much more important race, but it's not exactly UTMB or Western States, like, it's, it hasn't been considered in that same company.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I think is silly, honestly. I think the multi-day space provides so much more of a stage for athletes to tell their stories and to show what kind of person they are. If you're winning Western States, you're doing it in 15 hours or less. That's just not, and, and your only focus can be running as fast as you can. But during Cocaldonna, I mean, if you're running as fast as you, if you're running at that kind of pace, you're going to DNF by mile 100.

• 9:49Rich Roll?

  It's a totally different thing to conflate 100 miles with a 250 mile race. Like, it's an entirely different thing altogether. And everybody sort of lumps ultras into one category, but it's really, like, vastly different.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I, I just look at, you know, what Cocaldonna did for Dan Green last year. He was the men's winner last year and it, I mean, it elevated his profile because we all got to meet this person and we all kind of collectively decided that we like this person. You know, he has a good attitude, he finished strong, he finished with a smile on his face. He and his crew just had fun out there. I, yeah, multi-days just give you a, a bigger stage to have fun and to show off, like, the fun side. Or, I mean, with Killian Corr, you can show off, like, how gritty you are. Just more so, you have, you have more time to do that than something at 100 miles.

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  But that's very counterintuitive. You would think, like, oh, it's so much longer, it's gotta be less fun. Like, how does the, where's the fun part?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Well, the fun part is what you decide, I guess. Me, I, I think that there's nothing at any, any race that I go to, there's nothing I would rather be doing than that race. And so who am I to say that I'm not going to have fun while I'm doing it? I'm choosing to do this. So if I'm complaining about how hard it is, I need to be reevaluating why I'm signing up for these things. So for me, I think I choose for it to be fun. And I think a lot of people must do that, or we wouldn't be signing up.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  You, you mentioned when you finished last year, you won, but you weren't exactly in the most positive mindset.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  No, I was not.

• 11:26Rich Roll?

  And am I right to think you made a conscious decision? Like, I, I don't want to feel this way again about this. And next year, I want to, I want to have that sense of joy and that, that you were seeing in other people that you weren't, that you weren't exhibiting then.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, 2024, I, I mean, I bonked really hard going up the last climb. I was really kind of a dick to my pacer. Cause I just, I had, I had no reserves on which to draw at that point. I've never done something that hard. And so I just, I was really, really negative in my finish line video. I, I hate watching and I hate seeing because I just, I was so like flat and sad. And then I remember watching the second place woman come in. Her name was Manuela Villa Viasseca. And she was so pumped and she was grateful and she was thankful for the experience and she was what I wanted to be. And she got second and I got first.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  And so it just felt really, like I felt crappy for the behavior that I was demonstrating at that finish line. And so, yeah, going into 2025, my pretty much only goals were to figure out nutrition. And I started working with precision, so check. And then to have a better attitude at the finish line. I did not have a single placement goal. I did not have a time goal. Those were my goals. And I figured if I, if I did those things well, then I would have a good race, regardless of, of placement.

• 12:50Rich Roll?

  And what did that teach you about the relationship between? Joy and gratitude and performance because there is that idea like if you're not like just tapped out and have no mental reserves and you're grouchy and barking at everyone, it's because you left it all out on the course. And if you have joy and gratitude, then that's energy that should have been channeled towards moving you forward more quickly. Like, that's the very kind of masculine, you know, like, go big or go home, kind of like, idea. But then we have Courtney, who is the embodiment of like, joy and gratitude,

• 13:32Rich Roll?

  and like, just, like, very aware of, like, her impact on how she inspires people, and make sure that she is always in that state of mind in these races. And obviously, she's, you know, been this dominant queen in the sport for so long. And you're blind if you can't see that there's a lesson there, right?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  She was one of my biggest inspirations. I think I probably first heard about her in maybe 2016, right before she blew up all over the world with her Moab and I think Tahoe performances. And I don't know whether I saw her attitude and wanted that for myself, or if I already maybe recognized that that's how I felt and seeing that displayed with success was very motivating. I'm not, I'm not sure which one that is. But I do, I do think that what 2024 Cocodona taught me, and then I was able to, like, exemplify in 2025, is how much of your attitude, how much your attitude can play a role in your

• 14:38Speaker 01

  performance. You can, you can choose the attitude that you want to have. And I think for me, if I choose to be having fun out there, if I choose to be grateful to the aid station, if I choose to be grateful to the experience itself, I'm, I'm going to perform better, no matter what. I mean, in 2022, I got really in my own head about the success that I'd had, and I felt very compelled to Win everything at all costs. And I had a really humbling 2022. I DNFed the Santa Monica Mountains 100. It was like the inaugural year. I DNFed it because I tripped and fell because I was going out way too hard and I busted open my hand. So I DNFed that and then I immediately turned around

• 15:21Speaker 01

  and was like, okay, well, I'm signed up for Cascade Crest and now I really have to win this race. And I was overtrained. I started out way too hard. I took way too much ibuprofen and I wound up with a stomach bleed around mile 70. And I just, I mean, I basically hiked my way to the finish and then collapsed at the finish line and was carted off in an ambulance to the, and that for me is what happens when the only thing I focus on is winning. I was not having fun. I was trying way too hard. I was too wrapped up in how things looked to understand how I was actually feeling. And so that year taught me a lot about what not to focus on. So moving forward, it was like, all right, I'm just going to try to have fun. I need to have fun with this. And you

• 16:02Speaker 01

  know, obviously with Cocodona in 2024, my goal was not to win. My goal was to just get to the frigging finish line. But yeah, I kind of lost sight on, especially on that last climb because it got, I mean, it got really hard. And I didn't emerge from that race being the kind of person that I wanted to be when things got hard.

• 16:20Rich Roll?

  And when you say last climb, that's the last climb over the course of 250 miles where your, your elevation gain is more than Everest.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, and it's, and it's going up Mount Eldon, which is a pretty, I think it is 9,300 feet. And so you go up about a 2,000 at least foot climb over a couple of miles. And so it's, it's tough, especially at the very end. And you're like, you see flag, you see the finish line. It's like right there and you just, instead of going straight, you just go up a mountain instead. And so it's, it's tough.

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  But what I'm hearing is a shift from being outcome oriented to process oriented, like being caught up in outcomes. I have to win the pressure that you're putting on yourself and how that translates into, you know, tension and overtraining and all the kind of things that you don't want. And then this conscious decision to say, I want to have fun, meaning like it's about the process.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Rich Roll?

  I mean, over that great a distance, there's so many variables that come into play. Like you can't predict. What's going to happen and how everybody is gonna meet those various obstacles and the unforeseen things that are gonna inevitably happen. And some people are gonna have good days and other people not so much. And so when lightning strikes and everything kind of works out your way, like you gotta just take it. You know, like, it's not bankable. Like, oh, well, this is the way it's gonna go every time.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  No, I you, I think the number one quality that will ensure success at Coca-Dona is your ability to roll with it. There was a moment when I left the, because I was, I was running with Joe McConaughey and Killian for probably the first 50 to 60 miles. And I enjoyed that pack. I thought that it was, we all felt like peers, like my skill sets and their skill sets were very comparable. And so it felt correct for me to be there, too. And deciding to leave that was really hard and kind of scary. It's like, all right, I'm banking on the fact that I think I can do better than what these guys are currently doing. And that was a weird moment. But I just kind of decided like,

• 18:33Speaker 01

  well, you know, you have the resume to be here. You have the resume to lead this race. You've won it for the women. You've only increased in like my overall performance. So why can't I be the one leading? Like, I'm just gonna roll with it. I'm here now. And, you know, if, if Killian, or if String Bean, or if somebody comes up and passes me, like, that's just how, it's a race. I want everybody to do their best on the given day. I don't want to beat everybody just because they decide to let me. Like, I really am appreciative of what, of Killian, honestly, I, he is, I'm so grateful that he was the second place person, because I knew that he was not going to just let me win. He was gonna make me work for it. And that thought propelled me when I wanted to walk,

• 19:16Speaker 01

  was like, well, if I walk this, I bet you Killian's running this. And I don't, I don't want to give it to him, and he doesn't want to give it to me.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The headline that also traveled around the world was this why, why not me? Kind of like mantra, which is basically what you're talking about, right? Like, why not me?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think I've done this in my professional careers of physical therapists, where it's, you know, I talk myself out of getting raises or getting promotions, because like,

• 19:45Speaker 01

  There is no real reason. My, again, my resume dictates that I've, I've had all these trainings and I've done all these things that prove that I'm a correct candidate for this job. And so I think extrapolating that to something like Cocodona, you know, I had won it for the women. I had set the course record last year. I had increased in my overall placement and time. So yeah, I mean, all signs dictate that there's no real reason, concrete reason for me to not be leading. So why not just take, this is kind of obnoxious sounding, but like, take what I've earned. It's not promised. I was fully aware that when I took the lead, it was not guaranteed that I'd stay there. But why not take it when I could and just see what happens?

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  When you're running in a group and everyone's kind of, you know, there's an esprit de corps, like you're kind of working together. Is there a sense of you're competing against these other people? Because it's so long, you're not really racing against anyone else, right? Like it's, you know, it's going to work out however it works out. And it's not going to be necessarily because of anybody else. It's like this, these races are, are between you and you and nature.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. It reminds me, in some ways, obviously, it's very different than the Barclay, but in some ways, it does feel kind of similar. You know, there's 400 people and you're all just trying to make it to Flagstaff. You're battling the weather, you're battling fatigue, you're battling wildlife. Like, there's a big rattlesnake this year that kind of scared a lot of people. But like, you know, you're, you're battling all the uncertainty that comes with going that far. And I think at Barclay too, like, there's so much uncertainty. You don't know where to go. You don't even know how many books there are. Like, it's, it's, you get a lot, or at least I get a lot of, I don't know, confidence and like, yeah, we can do it, like a rah rah maybe, from the people that I'm running with. So

• 21:43Speaker 01

  it does, it almost feels like a group project where it's like you against the course. It's everybody else against the course. Which I, I like those races. And it, yeah, I won, but it. That to me is almost like, who cares?

• 21:57Rich Roll?

  What is it that is going on in your mind when you're, you know, in the harder part of these races? Like, what are you thinking about? What are the mantras? What's the philosophy that's getting you through those darker, really challenging times when you want to quit?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I've gotten to a place where I look forward to those times. Because I don't think, one of, one of the things that I've realized over the years is that I want to make sure that I like who I am when things are tough. Whether that's in sports or whether that's in life. I think you can practice modeling the behavior that you want to demonstrate. And sports for me is a really great avenue for me to practice. You know, those things we were talking about before, being grateful, being fun, things being fun.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  So yeah, I honestly, I kind of, I look forward to things being hard. And I can't remember, it honestly, I feel like I'm just name dropping Courtney a ton, but it might've been a Courtney thing where she has said, this is what we came here for. There was a time in Kokadona this year around Sedona where things got really hard physically. I was really, the idea that I still had 100 miles left. Killian's right behind me. My legs are really tired. I'm really tired. And yeah, I mean, I still have 100 miles to go and I really want to keep this lead because that would be really cool if I stuck this landing.

• 23:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And that's a lot of pressure. And yeah, things got really hard and I got, you know, I, I was starting to go down this negative spiral of like, oh, you're never going to be able to keep this. Oh, you're so tired. Like if, what happens if he passes you right now? Like, you're not going to be able to respond. And it's like, okay, hold on. Things are getting really hard. I need to make a plan to address my physical issues right now. Like I was getting some blisters and I was getting hot and I needed some salt. So like, Let's make a plan to address those things and then like, let's adjust our attitude because I don't learn as much about myself when life's going great. Because life's going great. I don't need to change anything. But when things are getting hard is when I need to double down and, and figure out what kind of person I want to present to the world.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that, that idea that you want to like who you are when things are hard and that being a choice is pretty powerful. It's one thing to make that choice, like when you're annoyed, you know, waiting in line to order your coffee. It's another thing to make that choice when you're under just absolute physical exhaustion and like, you know, physical pain and duress and fatigue and the like.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, for me, it almost feels easier to be happier when I'm physically under distress than it is to be waiting in line for coffee or on the phone with somebody.

• 24:43Rich Roll?

  Say more about that.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's just now I've practiced the sports part more. Like, I honestly need to take that and apply it to my real life.

• 24:50Rich Roll?

  Right. You're like, I can be happy on mile 230 of this race.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  But if you put me on hold for too long, I'm gonna be upset. But I, but I mean, again, it's, I, I need to, yeah, I need, I need to remember those things too. And I, I try often, but like when, I remember when I was living in Los Angeles, like, it's very hard to live in LA. And PTs don't make a ton of money. So I was, I was always really overworked and stressed out financially. And I remember the first, or I guess it was 20, yeah, 2024, the first time I did Cocodona, I remember being like, holy crap, I was a not great person. And so one of the ways that I practiced, I guess accidentally, improving my mindset was in work situations when somebody was being rude to me and I was seeing three patients

• 25:36Speaker 01

  at a time, and my boss was saying this, and his boss was saying, like, all this stress, I would practice not letting that get to me. And, cause that's, I mean, that is a skill at Cocodona or during these multi, or during anything really is like, external stress. Don't let it get to you because if you focus on how stressed out you are, it's certainly not going to help you. It can motivate you to make a plan for how to manage your current situation. But if you're just upset, that's not, that's not a useful emotion to have.

• 26:06Rich Roll?

  Sure. And it's just your reaction to things that you don't like, that you wish were different, that you have no control over.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:14Rich Roll?

  And it can be low stakes, like somebody's being difficult with me and my job, or high stakes where like, I don't know if I'm gonna survive.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Rich Roll?

  Next couple of miles.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, kind of. It's, and it's funny because we talk about-

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  And not for nothing, somebody passed away.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:31Rich Roll?

  At Cocaldonna, like, somebody died.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:34Rich Roll?

  So if you had to translate that into a life lesson for somebody who's watching this or listening to it, who, you know, isn't an ultra athlete, maybe they're not even an athlete, like, what is the, the kernel of truth that is applicable in our daily lives?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Um, I think mindset and response is something I learned in therapy, are the only things that we really have complete control over.

• 26:59Rich Roll?

  The mental kind of therapy, not the physical therapy.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, mental therapy, not physical therapy.

• 27:03Rich Roll?

  Wait, say it again, say it again, because I interrupted you, I'm sorry.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  I think mindset and responses, my responses that I give to the world are the only things that are under our control. And they are under your control, even if it feels like things are happening to you, you get to be in charge of how you respond to those things. And nobody is going to make you act anyway. Nobody is going to convince you to do anything that you don't want to do.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  Hmm, yeah, this idea like, that person makes me so mad.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 27:33Rich Roll?

  Like, they're not making you mad.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  That person's not doing anything.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  You're deciding that you're, it has nothing to do with them. It's all about like, how you choose to respond or react.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the things that I've, I've had to reframe a lot over the last couple of years is this idea that people cause me to act a certain way, or things cause me to act a certain way, and they don't. I, I choose to allow them to influence me.

• 27:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  It was really frustrating because when things are hard, I like to blame, or I liked to blame, now I don't like to blame. It's, well, it's just easier, it's easier. Take some of the stress off of us. Um, but that-

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Just because it's a hard pill to swallow doesn't mean it's not true. And so, nobody makes you any certain way. You allow them to let you react that way. And so, yeah, you're in charge. Don't forget that you're in charge.

• 28:22Rich Roll?

  And you can practice that in your daily, everyday experiences or under extreme

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Sports.

• 28:29Rich Roll?

  situations like, like going and running a 250 mile race. But fundamentally, it's a, it's a mindfulness practice. Like when you're present and aware and you can buy yourself that extra moment to really think about how you want to show up in a certain set of circumstances. That's kind of how you put it to use and to work. I think.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:52Rich Roll?

  Sleep deprivation.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:54Rich Roll?

  So 19 minutes of sleep over 56 hours is insane. Your first nap didn't even happen until you were almost at the 200 mile mark, right? So you hadn't slept at all.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Nope, hadn't. Yeah.

• 29:10Rich Roll?

  And then that nap was like

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Five minutes.

• 29:13Rich Roll?

  Five minutes.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, it's funny because Courtney, Meg and I were all on a panel. And one of the questions was, do you train for sleep deprivation? And all three of us were like, no.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  Can you?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  I don't think you should.

• 29:26Rich Roll?

  I mean, even if you try to, I don't know that it would make you any better at it.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  What my plan is going into the race is I try to really make sure that I'm sleeping like as much as possible, 10 hours every single night for a week. Cause I'm, I know that the night before the race, I'm probably not going to sleep that much. You have to wake up at three. You're just not going to be able to sleep that much. Um, and then I'm obviously, if the goal is get to Flagstaff as quickly as possible, that means that I'm not going to be sleeping. I'm going to be mostly running. And so, yeah, just try to build up that reserve.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  But yeah, I've always been somebody who's, who can function on very little sleep. I do think that That is a superpower that I possess.

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna say like, I think it is like, some people can do it.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Some people can do it.

• 30:12Rich Roll?

  Better than others. They just can.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  And I also don't really hallucinate. So I'm just really good at staying awake for a long time and, and being relatively lucid. And for me, one of the ways that I check to see how okay I am is can I make a stupid comment or like a joke? Um, and if I can, then I'm doing okay. Um, but yeah, for me, my plan, you know, and again, I've done this race two times now, and I think this was my sixth or seventh 200 mile race. And so I've learned what my body needs with regards to sleep. I'm not going to be someone who's able to plan sleep. I know Jeff Browning, who's a really accomplished multi-day runner, he's like, all right, at mile 87, I'm gonna take a 25 minute, like, I'm not gonna do that. I can't plan these things. So I just, I just go until I'm tired.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  And once I am literally falling asleep while running, I'm going to curl up on the ground and I'm going to set a timer for five minutes. And if I wake up and I'm not ready to go, I can set another timer for five minutes. But I'm going to, I'm gonna do it in five minute increments. I know that when I am ready to sleep, I'm going to be able to fall asleep if I'm actually tired. Um, usually I, once I start to feel sleepy, I think, okay, well, do I, am I sleepy or am I just bored? Do I need to eat something? Do I need, do I just want to try some caffeine? Um, do I need to just talk to somebody? Cause you're out there a long time by yourself and like, maybe you're just bored. Um, so I usually try to kind of sit with that feeling for, I have a, I have a 20 minute rule.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  If I notice something, I give it 20 minutes before I decide whether it's something that I need to actually address. And yeah, but every time I, cause I took a five minute nap at about 200 and then I took two seven minute naps at. Somewhere between like 220 and 230. Um, and yeah, each time I was literally unable to keep my eyes open. And the first time I took a nap, I was running into my pacer because my eyes were closing and I was like drifting into my pacer. And it's like, okay, I need to, I need to sleep and I need to sleep right now.

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  And shockingly, five to seven minutes makes a huge

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  difference. Like you wouldn't think, but

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  Suddenly you're like a different person, which makes me think like, well, maybe a few more five minute naps because it seems like it compensates for so much, right?

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know if my body or my brain maybe just needed to do something else for a minute. Um, cause you know, all I'm doing is running and eating and drinking and like, that's and navigating, I guess. And so you get, you just kind of, it's almost like when your computer is going haywire and you just turn it off and back on again. Like, I think that's what I need to do is I just need to reboot for five minutes and then I'm good to go. Usually.

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  So crazy.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:02Rich Roll?

  That, that's all you slept.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is pretty weird. I think I only slept, um, I don't remember what I slept last year. It was under 30 minutes though, last year. And then in Mammoth 200 that I did in September, I didn't sleep at all. And it was 214 miles. So over the course of 44 or 46, I don't remember what my time was, it zero.

• 33:23Rich Roll?

  You mentioned that you don't really hallucinate, but you did hallucinate in this race. You had kind of a crazy one.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  This year?

• 33:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Did I hallucinate something?

• 33:32Rich Roll?

  Unless I misread.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  One year I saw myself.

• 33:35Rich Roll?

  You, you saw yourself. Okay. I want to hear about that. But what I read is you met a Native American woman.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that was real.

• 33:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Oh, that was, oh, that was real.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  That was real.

• 33:46Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I did, I'll talk about that because I love that story. I think it's super sick.

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  We'll tell it.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  And I do know that it was real because. I found it on the livestream. I found the moment on the livestream.

• 33:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, you weren't sure that it was real?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  I knew it was, but there was a lot of naysayers that said it wasn't. Um, but okay, so I'm going up the last climb, so Mount Eldon, which I have a personal history with of not having a good time and then deciding I'm going to have a good time with a pacer. So I can, I can offload some of my mental anxiety to that pacer last year. This year, there were no pacers allowed. And so I really liked that idea because I went from failing to succeeding with help. And now I get an opportunity to succeed by myself. So yeah, going into this climb, I was, I was really looking forward to the story that I was going to get to write. And yeah, so I'm going around, you know, I, I start climbing up, you go around Little Eldon first.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  And then you get to this junction where you're about to start the big climb up to the top of the summit. And it's about five miles or something. And there's this woman in street clothes, standing in the middle of the trail in this junction. And I know she's real. And, um, and I had a camera person following behind me and we weren't talking because I didn't want to. I wanted to do it by myself. I didn't want, so I just pretended like she wasn't there. But I do remember the woman saying, hey, I would like you to not film this. And so there's a moment where you see the woman on the livestream and then the camera turns away. And I found that moment, so it was real. But yeah, and so this woman is, she starts talking in a, it's like a mix of English and whatever the native language was.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  But she told me that she was a hoppy woman and she's holding on to something. Um, and she, you know, it, her presence was so shocking that she starts talking to me and I just immediately stop. I'm in the middle of a race and I'm winning and I don't know how far Killian is behind me, but like, I'm stopping right now because it just feels like what I'm supposed to be doing is I'm supposed to stop and I'm supposed to receive what this woman is about to tell me. And so she she tells me like she's not a runner and she's never followed this race before, but she heard what was happening. She heard that I was leading and she was just flabbergasted. Like it was it was amazing what I was doing. And to be told that when you're about to climb

• 36:10Speaker 01

  up 1,500 more feet is pretty cool, admittedly. And you know, she told me that like the implications that I had for women in general, like athletes or not, was massive and it was beyond what I could comprehend. And I was, you know, I'm just out of my mind. I've slept 19 minutes. And so I'm just sitting here weeping when this woman is telling me all this stuff because it's just, it's like, it was so comforting to hear this. And so she gives me, she's holding, it looks like sand, but she gives it to me and it's cornmeal. And I guess in Hopi culture, that's very symbolic of like, community and, and yeah, like, I don't know, togetherness

• 36:52Speaker 01

  and strength. And so for her to give that to me when I needed it most was, it was almost like she knew I hated that climb and she was giving me the strength to do it. And so she was like, you know, this, I want to give this to you. This is yours. You can do whatever you want with it. And she just gives me this cornmeal and I'm standing in the middle of the trail, holding this cornmeal. And I'm just like, I don't know what to do with this. So I put it in my pocket and then I have some cornmeal residue on my hands and I just like wipe it on my thighs. And that's the moment that I decided that I'm climbing this entire thing. I'm going to run this entire climb. And I do. And it was awesome. And it was like, it was almost an out of body experience because I, it's almost like the race. Like,

• 37:36Speaker 01

  I would have never predicted that I won this race outright. I would have never in a million years been like, oh yeah, I'm going to climb the whole Eldon climb. But I did. I mean, I dropped my camera person. My camera person who was fresh could not keep up with me and I had just run 240 miles. And that was like, I remember in the moment being like, holy crap, like I'm dropping my camera person. But just being like, doesn't matter, like, keep running, like you've got to keep running. And so I got, I didn't make it to, well, I did make it to the summit, obviously, but I remember there's a section of single track and it's really beautiful. It's very heavily wooded. There was some snow and so it was just really magical. And I remember there's like two little climbs and then you go down and then there's a forest surface road to get you to the top of Eldon.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  And the top of the second climb, I'm still on single track. I remember I like, just stopped and I get my hand in my pocket and I just like take the caramel and just yuck it off the side of the cliff. And I don't know, I don't know why I did that, but it just felt like the right thing to do. I remember thinking like, this gave me so much strength, like I want to give, I was thinking about Killian, actually, because I knew that Killian was somewhere behind me. And I also knew from my crew that he was struggling really hard. And so it's like, well, this is for whoever's behind me. You know, I was given this and now I've, I'm good. So like, it's time to pass it on.

• 38:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not yours to hold on to. You, it gave you what you needed and now it's time to pass it along.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:01Rich Roll?

  Well.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Not a hallucination though.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  So, so she, she blesses you with this extra, I mean, it feels like a hallucination.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  It felt wild.

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I, I'm going to decide that it still was. I don't care what the live stream said, like it's a better story.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  That's fine. I just magically had sand in my pocket.

• 39:17Rich Roll?

  But she, she, uh, yeah. The ineffable was, was made material for you, right?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 39:29Rich Roll?

  What have you learned about human potential? Like you've tapped into something that I would suspect, you know, I don't know if I were five or eight years ago, what you wouldn't have imagined you were capable of.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Certainly not. I think it's kind of what we've, what we've been talking about is I shouldn't assume that I'm not able to do something just because the data doesn't necessarily support it. Like again, if we're looking at my spreadsheet, I was 61 30. And obviously I beat that by, I don't do public math, but I beat that by a considerable amount. I mean, I did 56 hours. I knew that I'd put in a lot of work. It wasn't, it wasn't foolish optimism, but it was, Killian Corth calls it delusional self-belief. Like it's not necessarily delusional. I think we're, we're talking down on ourselves a little bit, but like I had put in the work. I had had success previously. I had shown improvements.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I think what drove me at this Cocaldonna was a curiosity more than it was anything else. Like, all right, well, I'm running really well right now. How long can I run this well? I don't think that trying to discover that outer limit, that's not going to be something that I need to chase. I think I'm just going to naturally get there by being curious. But I think too, this year's Cocaldonna was so fascinating because if you do look at Killian Corrith, who I'm going to give his flowers to, like, nobody picked him. I didn't even pick him to win because he's never had a successful race here. You know, he has allergies and he tore his hamstring and he's DNF'd this race twice and then finished in like 20th once. How in the world? He PR'd that race by 24 hours.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Or 25 hours, but like wild stuff.

• 41:14Rich Roll?

  A day.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  A day, a full day. Like, I'm not an idiot for not picking you. I was just using logic, but... I don't know. I think, I think that the chase for human potential does involve some sort of like, it does involve some sort of, well, why not? Like, some sort of delusional version of self-belief kind of has to be there in order for you to believe that you could accomplish something that nobody else has.

• 41:38Rich Roll?

  Well, there's the belief and then there's the objective potential that somebody has, right? In order to tap into that potential or manifest it, you need that belief. And the more, the deeper, you know, that you want to tap into it, the more kind of elevated the belief has to be. But fundamentally, like, we all have untapped potential, right? Like, you've been able to tap deeply into yours, but, you know, could have gone, like, it's not like you were, uh, running competitively, collegiately, and have been your entire life. Like, something, some switch could have gotten flicked and you would have never even gone into running.

• 42:21Rich Roll?

  You know, and you would have lived your whole life not knowing that like,

• 42:24Speaker 01

  I had all this potential.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  You had this capacity, you know what I mean?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:27Rich Roll?

  All right, well, let's take it back. I want to hear the, the, you know, the hero's journey, the origin story. You're from Birmingham, Alabama, Southern girl.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  Were you? Like athletic as a kid, were you playing sports or no?

• 42:43Speaker 01

  I was playing sports.

• 42:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Um, I would say I was good at exactly zero sports, but um, what I lacked in skill, I made up for in enthusiasm. I played basketball and soccer, I would say the most, and both of those are sports that involve running in some capacity.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  But I tried out for the cross country team in high school and I did not make it because I was too slow.

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  You didn't make, you didn't make the cross country team?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you had to run five miles and I think it was an hour and I did not do that.

• 43:13Rich Roll?

  Usually there aren't even tryouts because like no one wants to even do that sport.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  I don't think I was formally cut, but it was kind of this understanding of like, if you can't do this, you don't need to come back. So I didn't make it or I saw myself out.

• 43:27Rich Roll?

  I feel like you need to go back and visit that coach.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Coach Gaines? Yeah, I know, I know who he was.

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  At least send an email.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, by the way, I'm not sucking now. Yeah, no, I, I mean, I think I, I always liked running if there was a purpose. I didn't understand that running could be the purpose at the time, but um, but yeah, I, I played sports, but I wasn't very good at them. I was overweight as a kid, um, had zero self-esteem at all. And so one of the things, it's my origin story with running is a little bit muddy. Um, because one of the big reasons why I got into running was actually because I was anorexic for a while. So my junior year to my senior year, a lot of personal drama and family drama and relationship drama happened.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  And I just like, I had had poor self-esteem growing up, um, mostly around my body image. I was, I was really good friends with a girl who was literally a model. And so I was kind of always getting seconded because everybody really wanted to talk to her. And I was just like the funny fat kid kind of thing.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  And what was going on at home that was contributing to the low self-esteem or was that outside? Was that just your friend circle that was driving that?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I don't think anybody was saying anything. I think it was just, you know, I, growing up in the late nineties, early two thousands, there were people on the covers of magazines and they did not look like me. Um, in the sense that like, I was overweight and the idea of beauty was not what I looked like and you know my my parents and my friends and all these you know they were always very positive like no one ever was like well you're fat so that's why your life sucks but I told myself that enough that eventually it became true and so you know I had I had a couple different like I said family and personal drama that basically convinced me that like well if I'm thinner

• 45:24Speaker 01

  things will be better and I'll be better and I'll you know if I can't have happiness at least I can have this and like I can be beautiful you know and so um and as it turns out I was I'm very good at doing one thing and so the thing that I decided to be good at was not healthy not healthy and I discovered running in that way because it was you know obviously we know how calories work and when you exercise you know you burn them and so I would go to the gym kind of as a way to escape my home life too um I would just go after school and I would just run on the treadmill for hours and even when I wasn't calorically meeting my own needs I could still

• 46:06Speaker 01

  do it and I I liked how I felt when I was doing it and so you know obviously that had a short shelf life um because eventually I got to a point where I recognized that I needed help and I was not going to live very long if I kept doing what I was doing and I wasn't able to stop

• 46:22Rich Roll?

  working out like a maniac not eating at all bulimic too or just

• 46:26Speaker 01

  no just anorexic um thank goodness because I can't imagine how much more difficult it is to have to manage that I think but um but it's I mean all of them are hard and all of them I was unable to fix on my own and I recognized that like alright I need I I went to rehab actually twice

• 46:42Rich Roll?

  and you were when you were in high school still

• 46:44Speaker 01

  I had just graduated from high school when I like instead of going to college my first year I went to rehab twice so I missed the full year um but you know I'm

• 46:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. For me, it was like I was always gonna have to go to rehab twice because I needed to learn it the hard way, as is my custom.

• 47:02Rich Roll?

  I've been there.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  I faked it. We fake it.

• 47:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  We're like, oh, we'll be fine. I just need to get out of here so I can go back to doing my thing.

• 47:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  And

• 47:10Rich Roll?

  Get these people off my back.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, they don't know what they're talking about with talking about my feelings. And so, you know, I faked it for three months. I got out. Within a month, I was like, wait a second, I'm still miserable. I still hate this. I'm still lying to my friends. I'm still lying to myself. And I don't want to live this way anymore. Like, I want to believe that my life does not have to be this grim. And at the same time, I loved the confidence that running gave me, even when I wasn't feeling properly. And even when I was like, early in my eating disorder and I didn't look any differently, I felt more confident and I felt more capable after I ran. And so I knew after, once I got into rehab the second time, I knew, I was like, okay, I need to figure

• 47:56Speaker 01

  out how to do this safely when I get out of here. Because I obviously just tried to do it unsafely again and got the same result. So if I want this to be a part of my life, if I want to use this to build confidence, I need to figure out how to do it properly, so that I can do it forever.

• 48:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, psychologically, they're both ways of exerting control.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  Whether it's through food, or whether, you know, movement, exercise, fitness and these things. And if there's, you know, chaos at home or whatever, it's a, it's a, it's a very comforting

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I choose this. Yeah.

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  Anything can be unhealthy, you know, so.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  Like, learning how to do it in a healthy way.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  Is still confronting you with that control impulse and forcing you to figure out how to balance that against like, the obsessive, you know, version of it. You do it by running 250 miles.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Super normal. Um, it took me a while to, you know, I got out of rehab and I was healthy and my brain was still just like halfway in and halfway out. But at least I was halfway in. And then over, over the years, like, I, I realized that if I want to be, like, I'm, I'm good at running. I was always You know, as soon as I started long distance running in particular, I ran my first marathon as a freshman in college. And I did that and I was like, holy crap, like I did pretty well. And I also don't feel that tired. So I think I might be good at this. And then I realized if I want to be good at this, then I have to

• 49:31Speaker 01

  treat eating like it's a part of my job. And so it took me probably four years to figure out how to do that, how to bring enough fuel on runs where I wasn't bonking. And obviously that's a work in progress as the things get longer and longer. And now I've just somewhat outsourced it to professionals who can, who can just put gas in the car and I just run. But you know, too, I think that is a, is a skill in and of itself, because I remember at Chianti, they, Precision puts out data and they had three athletes there. I was one and then there were two more and they put out all of our grams of carbs per hour that we were doing. And with eating disorders or any addiction, a lot of it is a comparison game.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  And I remember, you know, mine was 60, a person's was 120 and then another person's were, was 80. And my first thought was like, how do I get that number higher? Like they're all here and I'm down here and like, maybe if I get that number higher, I could unlock even more potential. And that was my first thought. And then my second thought was like, holy shit, have I come a long way? Because if I were still ill, my first thought would be like, heh heh, I only did 60, I'm better because I did less. And I'm, I'm somehow this like superior person because I can do the same thing on less. And that's like, yeah. And so I, I remember in that moment being really proud of like how far I've come.

• 50:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it represents this shift in perceiving running not as a, like a weight management strategy or a weight loss strategy, but as a, like a, a performance, you know, minded relationship.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  So I've come, come a long way, come a long way. Cause I mean,

• 51:13Rich Roll?

  But, but I'm sure people say to you all the time, like you traded your addictions or this is just an addiction.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  I don't think this one's gonna kill me fast enough. That one, I mean, anorexia until like fentanyl came around was the, or I guess eating disorders were the number one mental health killer in human beings. I don't think if I'm, you know, and I say this again, understanding that people die during ultra marathons sometimes, but like,

• 51:40Speaker 01

  I think I'm a little bit safer on this one.

• 51:43Rich Roll?

  So what is your message directly to the person who is struggling with an eating disorder right now?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess it's sort of similar to, you know, running is just this like life in a day, right? Why not believe that it can get better? You know, why not choose right now to make the choice that has the potential for long-term positive effects? For me with anorexia, I mean, my, my number one issue was intake. Once it was there, it was my job to work through the feelings associated with, you know, eating.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  So all I could really ever do is just like, all right, like believe that this is the right thing. And like, don't try to undo it. Like, don't try to, oh, I ate something. Now I can't eat for the next day. Or now I have to go and I have to like work it off in some way. Like, no, like, the correct thing to do is like, do the right thing and continue that up with doing all the right things. And believe that it's going to get better. Believe that you're going to get to a place where you truly believe that nobody cares how you look. And like, you love the person that you are regardless of how you actually look.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  So yeah, just believe, do the right thing and believe that it'll get you to a place that you want to be.

• 53:09Rich Roll?

  Well, you have this joyful relationship with running and, and with your sport. And clearly you've figured out how to tap into gratitude and, and, you know, like the, the kind of happiness quotient with, you know, this torturous sport. But I would imagine at the beginning, at least, there were times when running was what you would use to punish yourself. Like if you would, oh, like I, I ate too much and now I have to go run 20 miles or whatever to work it off. And that's a, that's a negative association. Like I have to, I have to like martyr myself.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:47Rich Roll?

  Because I'm bad, because I ate whatever I ate, you know?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might have done that some when I was. Sick, but I think a big part of that actually came when I was like, when I was little, because we would do sports and if you messed up, you'd have to run laps and like, that kind of associated running with this punishment. So it's been fun to kind of take that back of like, nope.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  It's always been that way.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has. I don't get why.

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  You're in trouble. Now you have to go run. Like, running is what you do when you're, you're being shamed.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think when I was, when I was struggling with my stuff, I don't think running, I don't know if I ever really, I, I used that as an example earlier, but looking back, I don't ever think I used it as a punishment. I would always do the run because I enjoyed it. I would just follow it up with behaviors that were not productive. But I, I always, I don't know what, I guess it was that switch that flipped when I needed it to, when I needed to feel good about something. Running was there to be like, actually, you feel good when you do this. Cause yeah, I've never necessarily looked at it as like a way to punish myself.

• 54:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's good.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Which is nice. Yeah.

• 54:57Rich Roll?

  There's so many different kinds of running. There's, there's the, you know, recess, you're in trouble run. There's track and field, there's cross country, you know, the hundred meter dash. Uh, and then there's the super long ultra trail runs, which I associate with being perhaps the most primal, like kind of DNA embedded sort of type of running because of our ancestry as persistent hunters.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  Is there a spirituality to any of it? Like just being in the largesse of nature out there? I mean, I'm thinking of your stints in, in rehab, like, I don't know what the healing modality was, but, uh, you know, in typical 12 step addiction recovery, you're introduced to ideas of surrender and turning it over to a higher power. And it is a spiritual program fundamentally, at least the 12 step version of it is. Uh, and so I'm curious around your relationship with that, with respect to your recovery from eating disorders and your relationship with like being an ultra runner and how like your immersion in nature contributes to that.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  I think that being, particularly being either alone in nature, especially when I'm way out there, or with being with a small group of people that I love and trust. When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, solo or in a group, it feels so big and it feels so beyond me. It's like, it's insane.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  I don't know what my stance is necessarily on religion, but it's hard not to just feel like in awe of however this came about.

• 56:49Rich Roll?

  But it allows you to inhabit awe and wonder more easily. Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:54Rich Roll?

  And there's undeniably like this, it's clear like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, like you're living in integrity with who you are, like you're on your correct path.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  I think so. Yeah. And I, and I think too,

• 57:10Speaker 01

  particularly when you do get an opportunity to share that experience with somebody else, even, even Coca Dona, I was one-on-one experiencing it with my Pacers and my crew, but I feel a connection to every person that even toed that start line because we all were in the same place trying to do the same thing. And so I've talked with Killian quite a bit about this idea of like universal human consciousness. I don't know if that's necessarily tied to spirituality, but that is something that I fully think is, I, I understand that part of it.

• 57:45Rich Roll?

  Like the oneness of everything. Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  I'm very into like this, it's almost like a yogi principle of like, we're all in this together, you know, and, and what you put out into the world, you're gonna, I like to believe that you'll get that back. And so if I'm putting out, you know, if I'm, if I'm choosing to be this positive, happy person and I'm putting that, if I'm throwing the cornmeal off the top, I'll get the cornmeal back at some point. And I'm not doing it so that I can have this quid pro quo of like, well, if I'm good, then I get stuff too. Like, no, I'm doing it because I think it feels like the right, it feels like the correct path for me to be on. I, I feel like I want to give back to the world that's given me so much. And

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Assuming a just world, like, maybe there's a chance that I can get something back from that, too.

• 58:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think that the reason why so many addicts in recovery, you know, end up at the starting line of these ultras.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:43Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? It's too lazy to just say, oh, they transferred their addiction. I think that fundamentally, you know, addicts are seekers and they're seeking answers to very uncomfortable and difficult questions and they end up doing it in very unhealthy ways and bottom out. But they're still seekers. And I think these ultra races are like incredible, like spiritual odysseys that force you to confront yourself in ways that you can't run away from. So there are opportunities for self-understanding and they have their moments of transcendence.

• 59:25Rich Roll?

  You know, you can't go 250 miles without meeting yourself exactly who you are.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Haggard and stacking rocks.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  Having to confront, like, you know, you just cannot run away from whatever you're compartmentalizing. It all comes up, right? And you have to contend with that. And then you have these, like, you know, breakthrough moments of feeling like you're at one with everything. And they are transcendent by nature. I think they are really like, they're not athletic competitions. They're like, they're more like psychedelic journeys.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Kinda.

• 1:00:01Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  I definitely, I agree.

• 1:00:03Rich Roll?

  I feel like that's part of the allure for, you know, somebody who comes from that, like, you know, kind of struggle.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think for me, running has become this thing where it makes me a better person. And whether that's, you know, I think particularly where you You have a good point with you're unable to run away from who you are when you're out there by yourself. Like there are thoughts that are going to come up and you alone have to manage and deal with those thoughts.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  And that's the opposite of addiction, which is using something to run away from whatever it is that makes you uncomfortable. Like you're running towards the thing that makes you uncomfortable.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  When I sign up for a race, I fully understand that at some point out there, I'm probably going to cry. And it is, it could be good, it could be bad, it could be, I'm having to, like during Cascade Crest, I mean, that race, during the time, it was the worst and I was very unhappy. But like, looking back, I'm so grateful for that experience because it showed me that I am focusing on the wrong thing. And when I was out there, I very quickly came to the conclusion, you know, I'm yakking up my guts at mile 80 and I'm just like, boy, focusing on winning, not making me very happy. Like, this is something that I'm going to have to do a lot of uncomfortable work on improving. And without that negative

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  experience, without signing up for that race, I would not have gotten that opportunity. And so, you know, again, I don't, I don't think I'm endorsing everybody going out and running ultra marathons in order to find their nirvana. But I think we are in a society where we can pick up our phones and we can, we're talking about offloading our responsibility. Like we can offload the responsibility of looking inward onto like, well, I'd rather watch this reel of a guy punching a penguin. Like, we're almost addicted to not being uncomfortable nowadays. And I think that when we're sitting by ourselves and we're

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  forced to not turn away from our uncomfortable thoughts, that's when a lot of work is done. And that is what running does for me. Maybe I would have found it with something else, maybe cycling, or maybe meditation, or maybe knitting, I don't know, like whatever. But I, I just, I hope that we become a society that's a little more okay with confronting uncomfortable thoughts. And then not turning away from them, the moment that we notice that's what we're doing. Like, they're uncomfortable because it means that something needs to change. And you have the power to enforce that change. But you have to. Give yourself the space to even notice it first.

• 1:02:41Rich Roll?

  What's your pitch to the, uh, somebody who's now flirting with the idea of getting involved in this world?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  I mean, please don't go out there untrained and die, but like, I don't know if, why not try to do, you're going to learn a lot more about who you are if you try to do something that sounds crazy than you are if you're just going to sit there and wonder what would happen if you were to try. Cause I mean, I, I flirted with the idea of doing Cocodona for years before I signed up for it. And then I remember in 2024, I didn't have the money to do it. I didn't know how I was going to do it, but I was like, you know what? It'll, it'll, I'll figure it out. I'm just going to sign up for it. Um, and it wound up being the start of this incredible journey that I'm, I'm so stoked happened to me.

• 1:03:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think you could.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  It changed my life.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  It's fair to say that.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  I mean, it changed my life and it changed it only for the better. And it's given me tons of opportunity sense. So yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're flirting with the idea of doing something that sounds crazy, it probably means that you're thinking about things the right way.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  What's coming up for you? What are you training for right now?

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  The UTMB. Going to that. So that sounds crazy to me.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  The UTMB.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the big loop.

• 1:03:45Rich Roll?

  The Super Bowl of ultra running.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, I'm not, I, it's the first time I've done this race. I have no expectations on any placements. My goal is to have a good time that week. I think it'll be really fun. I'm going, I get an opportunity to go out well in advance. I'll be leaving at the end of July to go and I'll do the whole loop before I do the race. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing something crazy, but I'm setting myself up to at least be able to complete it safely. Um, so I feel like I'm, I'm trying to put myself in a spot where I can perform to my potential while still remaining curious about what it's going to look like when it's all said and done. Um, so I'm really excited.

• 1:04:29Rich Roll?

  Well, you're super inspiring. You're really a bright light in this world.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:04:35Rich Roll?

  And I appreciate the service-oriented kind of commitment to giving back, like, understanding that your success comes with not just a responsibility to make this world better and make it more accessible and aspirational for people, but that that is like, just, it's not a responsibility, like a burden. It's more like, oh, this is the way of living. You know what I mean? Like, this is a way of life. And I think that's applicable to all of us in whatever kind of, you know, context.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is it the Spider-Man quote, that's "to whom much is given, much is expected"? That's something that I've had to really try to apply. It's like, I've been, I have been given a lot. And so there should be a lot of things that are expected of me. And I am in a place where I need to try to do them when I can.

• 1:05:32Rich Roll?

  I think you have been doing this for a long time, but I also feel like you're just starting.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Certainly this part.

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm a super fan.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Oh, stop it.

• 1:05:44Rich Roll?

  And this was, this was really fun.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 1:05:46Rich Roll?

  Thanks for doing this. And best of luck in UTM.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:05:50Rich Roll?

  Cheers.