Pod Insights The Rich Roll Podcast Touch Grass: Andrew Yang Returns To Talk Phone Addiction, AI's Cognitive Toll, & The Fight For Your Attention About this episode Andrew Yang is an entrepreneur, former presidential candidate, and founder of Noble Mobile.
This is a conversation about our phones, and what they're doing to us.
We get into the machinery engineered to colonize your attention, the cognitive cost of leaning on AI, and why willpower won't save you.
Andrew is great. This one is a Trojan horse for a more challenging conversation. Enjoy!
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:04 Andrew Yang? These guys are rectangles of sadness. Of course, it's addictive. It's actually eroding our well-being. Disturbing new study found a link between technology and depression.
1:13 Speaker 02 Research confirms that excessive smartphone use presents itself a lot like addiction. We know they're connected to depression, anxiety. The dangers are hiding in there.
1:24 Speaker 03 Joining us right now is Andrew Yang, a former candidate for president.
1:27 Andrew Yang? We know these tools are indispensable, but also that they're eating our brains and mental health.
1:33 Rich Roll? This thing is eroding our ability to think clearly, to focus. It's changing our neurology. It's impairing our physical health, obviously our mental health. Your life is on the line. Andrew, so good to see you, man. Thank you for doing this.
1:49 Andrew Yang? Rich, I am back, here in the Rich Rollaverse.
1:52 Rich Roll? We're having an al fresco experience, a little touch-grass moment, which is apropos for the conversation I want to have with you about the benefits of an analog life.
2:02 Andrew Yang? Yes, very apropos, very uplifting.
2:05 Rich Roll? It's pretty common to hear someone say, like, "I'm just addicted to my smartphone." Do you think that this is like a legitimate addiction? Or is it just an obsessive-compulsive relationship that we have? Like, how do you think about, like... That.
2:24 Andrew Yang? Of course, it's addictive. And, and of course, it's a real thing. I mean, you can see the generational impact it's had on unfortunately young girls over the last number of years. Um, do you know Jonathan Haidt?
2:40 Rich Roll? Yes.
2:40 Andrew Yang? Yeah. So Jonathan wrote the book, The Anxious Generation and Raised the Alarm, but the data was clear and the, the data was there as early as 2017. In Jean Twenge's book, IGEN, which is when I saw it. Um, so even when I was running for president, I was like, hey, guys, FYI, these devices not great for our kids. Uh, and so you know that if it's having that, that effect on our children, it's having an effect on us too. It's just not quite as severe because our, our brains matured in a different way. Uh, and um, maybe the way we use the, the smartphone is, is a little bit different.
3:22 Andrew Yang? Um, but it's an addiction for sure. And it can have very, very negative effects. I mean, walking the streets of New York, I can't tell you how many people just have their smartphone out. And then occasionally you, they bump into you or someone.
3:33 Rich Roll? People.
3:33 Andrew Yang? And you know, you know, I mean, heck, even when I'm driving the streets of New York, have I seen someone just like walk into traffic? Where the sword brought up completely. So that's an addictive behavior that I'm going to suggest could have very negative effects for for, um, you know, some of those pedestrians.
3:51 Rich Roll? The definition of addiction is the inability to control a behavior despite negative consequences. Characterized by a compulsive need to engage in the behavior irrespective of important life priorities. I mean, come on, like this is, this is what we're doing.
4:07 Andrew Yang? Yeah, totally.
4:09 Rich Roll? And, you know, I tend to have this sort of bias. I, I perceive things through, uh, the lens of, of addiction because I'm a long time sober person. And if there is a silver lining in all of this, you know, when I first got sober in, in 1998. Addiction was something that, that you know, you should be ashamed of, that was something on the margins that we pretended wasn't there and you know afflicted these poor people who you know, ended up in the gutter or just couldn't get it, couldn't keep the needle out of their arm or whatnot. And now because of the smartphones, like we're all connected to this idea of addiction
4:49 Rich Roll? in a way that you know, 10, 15 years ago, we weren't because we all feel that pull. We're all succumbing to it. We're all victimized to it. And if there's one thing about addiction, it's that willpower isn't going to cut it. Like if you're relying on your willpower to solve this problem, you're just going to relapse and you're going to relapse and you're going to get frustrated and you're just going to dig this hole. And yet with respect to our smartphones, it's sort of like food addiction. Like we, we kind of need them in order to function in society. Which means we're, you know, we're just, we're kind of hitting it like a drug every single day. And despite our best intentions or trying to summon that willpower to put distance between ourselves and the thing,
5:34 Rich Roll? like it's almost, you know, we're doomed in that, in that way. And yet, we're shouldered with the responsibility of solving this. Like, what can you share about your experience with that and, and what you say to people who are stuck in that loop?
5:49 Andrew Yang? Yeah, first, we've all been there. And I think most people know that the most constructive thing you can do is take one action in the direction that you want. So if you're looking at your behaviors day to day, it could be, okay, I can't do all of this, but I'm going to say one hour without my phone before I go to bed. If you decide to go bigger with Noble Mobile, I'll give you just my real life experience. So I joined Noble Mobile and then I blew through the data cap in month one and, and it was like, okay, that wasn't great.
6:26 Andrew Yang? And then a couple of months in, I actually got some cash back and then got a little excited. And then I said to myself, because I'm a goal oriented fellow was like, oh, let me just try and do better than that the next month. And then the next month I did not do better because I was very busy that month, but then the month after that I did. So just having measurements and goals and positive reinforcement does make you more mindful, but the first thing to do is just take a concrete step that you can actually stick to. And for me, that was, look, I don't know what I'm going to do the other 23 hours, but the hour before I go to bed, I'm not going to have this thing with me.
7:06 Andrew Yang? And then what I did is I actually started reading a book and the science says that if you read a book, it helps you sleep better and you might even learn a thing or two.
7:13 Rich Roll? The advice I give people is the same that I give somebody who is a substance addict, which is the first thing you have to do is you have to break the denial. An addict will find, you know, any reason to perpetuate the behavior. And I think the same holds true with smartphones. And with addiction, the first thing you have to do is admit that you are powerless over this thing that is controlling your life. And that it is making your life unmanageable. Like this is like right out of like 12 step. And then, once you really grok that and, and kind of surrender to the fact that this thing is running your life. And no matter what you do, it is in control of you rather than the other way around.
7:55 Rich Roll? Realize that you can't solve the problem with the same brain that's creating it. Like you have to ask for help.
8:02 Andrew Yang? One big mental switch for me, Rich, was realizing, and this is an important thing for all of us.
8:09 Andrew Yang? Just about everything can wait for 45 to 60 minutes. Like you do not need to be instantly reactive to every message, certainly not every social media notification. I mean, those things you should probably not even be looking at. But even a text message, thinking that you have to be always on and available and being able to respond immediately, unless frankly, it's your, your partner, your spouse, you're like a family. Remember and you can put them in a particular zone where it's like, hey, like then it'll vibrate. Everyone, everyone else can wait. Everything else can wait. And then it just seems like, you know, you're busy doing something like, you know, you were in a meeting.
8:49 Andrew Yang? Who the heck knows? But imagining that you're so important that you have to be able to respond to something in real time is a, is an attention trap.
9:01 Rich Roll? It's also, uh, you know, delusionary narcissism, like you're not that, you're not that important.
9:06 Andrew Yang? That is sort of my point.
9:08 Rich Roll? Your obsession with being responsive is really just a fear impulse. Like your discomfort that's forcing you to reach for your phone to cure yourself of that discomfort is the same craving that compels the alcoholic to grab a drink, like they can't sit still in their discomfort. The solution is to answer the text and feel okay that the world, the uncertainty has been resolved. But learning to just sit with that discomfort is really the way forward. Like, yes, it's okay to be uncomfortable. It's not going to kill you. It might feel like it's going to kill you, but it will pass. And you'll realize over time that that thing that you thought was so urgent actually isn't.
9:52 Rich Roll? And, you know, only when you part ways with it and take a break, do you really fully recognize that all of these things that you're allowing to control your life actually aren't that important. And the things that are important, your relationships, your connection to other human beings, your capacity to, you know, do deep creative work, all of those things are getting short shrift because we're confused about what's important.
10:17 Andrew Yang? You know what's funny, Rich is like, one, you're not that important in that the world will not burn down. If you don't respond to that thing within 30 minutes, but two, you are important in the sense that you should be able to unplug and take a walk and think.
10:31 Rich Roll? And your life is more valuable than this, you know, and it's worth, it's worth living, actually.
10:36 Andrew Yang? Yes, it's both at the same time. It's been a fascinating step for, for me to take. Yeah, but like I, I've actually gotten a lot better at this where. Look, the people around me kind of expect that something might be an extra, whatever it is, thirty to sixty minutes typically. And that's totally fine. And, you know, as soon as everyone realizes that, then you kind of feel freer. And your tension becomes freer in yours again.
11:07 Rich Roll? And if you think you're immune from this, or that you don't fall into that category, in addition to doing that time inventory, you can do an impact inventory. In other words, and this is another like thing out of recovery, like basically journal and write down how your phone usage makes you feel on an hourly or daily basis. And then in addition to that, do a rigorous, fearless, open and honest inventory of how your relationship with your phone affects your relationships with, to other people.
11:43 Andrew Yang? Wow.
11:44 Rich Roll? How it makes those other people feel. And that's the real kind of like eye opener, when you realize like, oh, I'm taking all these people for granted and not really investing in my relationships with them because the most important relationship is my one with my phone.
11:59 Andrew Yang? You know what? There are studies that have been done that show that if I bust my phone out and use it in front of you, you both like and trust me less.
12:09 Rich Roll? Of course.
12:10 Andrew Yang? So just know that that's.
12:11 Rich Roll? We all know that. We all know that feeling when somebody does that in front of us.
12:16 Andrew Yang? And then there's a secondary one is if I have my phone out and I'm not using it, there's still that effect. You like and trust me a little bit less, just that the phone is evident. If you, if you know that the phone is inaccessible, then you like and trust me more. And so like, there's something called a Faraday bag where it cuts off the signal. So you could, if you wanted to be really ceremonial about it, like you have a meeting, you could like take your phone, throw, put it in the bag, it cuts the signal and then they'll know like, hey, no, it can't reach.
12:49 Rich Roll? It's a little performative, but.
12:51 Andrew Yang? No, that's a little overboard. That's a little overboard. But, but it's important to know the effect that this has on your relationships.
13:05 Rich Roll? In the years since your presidential run and the discourse around UBI and all of these kind of forward-thinking ideas that you were putting forth, it seems that a lot of the conditions that gave rise to that conversation in the first place have only metastasized. We have the advent of AI and of course, this ever-expanding epidemic of attention deficit caused by our relationship with our smartphones.
13:36 Andrew Yang? Some say I was a little bit early to the scene when I came up in 2019 and 2020 saying AI is on its way and it's going to eat the jobs. I could have said eat our brains and I wouldn't have been off-base. It's actually much worse than even I'd projected because I imagined that you'd have, let's say, the public sector or various figures who were trying to be counterweights to the AI onslaught, but really they're cheerleaders. And at this point, it feels like we're all trafficking in a world that's controlled by the tech platforms.
14:21 Rich Roll? Yeah, I mean, we have an information landscape that is informed by the incentives of the powers that be, the tech oligarchs who, you know, sort of the sycophants in the Oval Office who are, you know, currying favor to clear the regulatory space, to do whatever they want, while seeding these social media platforms with all sorts of information that manipulates us into thinking this is in our best interest and it's going to be this glorious future. But we all know what we feel like when we've stared at our phone too long, or when we've taken advantage of these AI tools. Like, there is a, you know,
15:00 Rich Roll? kind of a dystopic, emotional experience to all of this that is inescapable and undeniable.
15:07 Andrew Yang? I don't know what you're talking about.
15:11 Andrew Yang? Oh yeah, I mean, we've all been there where you picked up your phone to do something. And then 45 minutes later, you're like, what would I pick this up to do? Because because you've got sucked down a rabbit hole and it's a terrible feeling. And I I'm a Gen Xer, so I remember the before times. And I'm blessed in that I feel like, you know, you too, like our brains were fully formed before these tools arrived. But for our kids, like, they don't remember an era before the screens started to dominate. And, you know, it reminds me of the saying that I'm sure you've heard that we have these Stone Age brains
15:56 Andrew Yang? and then medieval institutions and godlike technology in our pockets. And that's where we are. It's like our brains are really not designed for these tools. And the tools have reduced friction in a way that feels very positive and pleasant and seamless. But it's actually eroding our wellbeing.
16:16 Rich Roll? Yeah, we're convinced that these modern conveniences and the reduction of friction and the pathway towards more ease and accessibility will make us happier. And the opposite.
16:31 Andrew Yang? Oh, yeah. And it's tough too for for folks like, I'm just use myself as an example. So I'm a heavy phone user. I'm online a lot. And my wife says it's the worst part of my job that I'm on social media platforms because it's not good for my mental health. But I'm a quasi-public figure. I've got things I'm trying to put out there and promote. I imagine that there are actually people that want to hear from me. I don't know if you have any of these problems, right?
17:02 Rich Roll? I mean, first of all, you're not a quasi-public figure. You're a full blown public figure.
17:06 Andrew Yang? Oh, well, thank you. Thank you.
17:08 Rich Roll? But I share that kind of relationship because it's very easy to say, well, I need this for my job. This is like my work and these platforms are one in the same. And so you have this very justifiable excuse to lose yourself.
17:25 Andrew Yang? I'm a productive, hardworking individual, and this is
17:29 Rich Roll? It's a tool.
17:29 Andrew Yang? Part of my work.
17:30 Rich Roll? Yeah.
17:30 Andrew Yang? And so I would be negligent if I didn't spend 45 minutes on this feed going nowhere.
17:37 Rich Roll? And even when you're just mindlessly scrolling, you can tell yourself, well, I kind of need to know what's going on out there because it helps inform how I think about these things and talk about them when I'm behind a podium. But is that really what's happening? Like, where is denial entering the picture here?
17:54 Andrew Yang? Oh, I mean, it's all of us because you can convince yourself that you are somewhat productive, even if you passively absorbed for an hour. Because like you said, you have to have your fingers on the pulse and you're seeing what other people are saying. Meanwhile, the feed has darkened on most of these platforms where you're not getting wholesome constructive information. You're getting weird inflammatory content around someone's screw up or, you know, like this person, someone you should throw online eggs at. I mean, that's a lot of what you get. So there's this productivity trap element for folks like, I guess you're in this boat too with me.
18:36 Andrew Yang? Like folks like us, one thing I've done that's made me feel better about using X is I've given the money away. And so then now it feels like to the extent that I'm earning money, I'm like giving it to someone who typically needs it. And the messages I've gotten when I've given even, you know, five, $600 away, it's really touching because people tell me about how, you know, they were like going to miss rent or that they just got laid off. And unfortunately that happens eight out of 10 times. And I'm not sure if it's just because the folks who enter online giveaways are close to distress or that's just what's going on out there.
19:12 Rich Roll? But it's still an excuse to remain engaged on these platforms that are just zapping you of your chi and life force.
19:20 Andrew Yang? Oh yeah. I mean, so my, my wife says this is the worst part of my job and she's right because she's seen my mood go dark because of some online interaction. And one of the comparisons I make is that it's very, very rare in our lives that your neighbor comes to your fence or, or property line and starts screaming at you. Like, that's not a normal. Experience, but you have the online equivalent just about every day. You know, and maybe they're not screaming at you, but you're witnessing a screaming match.
19:52 Rich Roll? Yeah, your entire constitution, like your hormonal regulation just gets completely derailed. Like you become captive to being impulso by people you're never going to meet. And you become this ping pong ball, you're just bouncing around, like living your life reactively based upon what an algorithm decides to show you. And what it's deciding to show you is going to be inflammatory or, you know, controversial or dramatic or fear inducing in some way. And that is not a bug. That's the feature. That's the underlying, you know, it speaks to the underlying incentive system beneath.
20:29 Andrew Yang? Yeah, that's the revenue model. The average American is now checking our smartphone between 186 and 205 times a day. So if you think about how many hours you're up and about, that comes to once every six minutes or so, something along those lines. And for someone hearing that who thinks that's crazy, just start timing yourself. We actually have like a noble life app that just gives you a very clean score where anything over a hundred means that it's excessive and anything below a hundred would be considered good.
21:04 Rich Roll? What is this doing to our physical health and our mental health? Like, what is the, the data and the science say? Do you have a sense of that?
21:13 Andrew Yang? So it, it's different across groups. I mean, the most striking and painful data is among young people where it's eroded mental health and led to a spike in anxiety and depression. It has made forming human connection more difficult. When you look at the. Rate of friendship or having close friends, it's fallen off a cliff. Socializing with other teenagers in real life has fallen off a cliff. For adults, it's lowered our attention span. It's made it harder for us to focus. And one of the challenges that I've set for myself that you probably are, because you're very elevated, you probably do this naturally.
21:56 Andrew Yang? But try and just put your phone away when you're having a meal with your family. And then see if you can actually just go through the meal, talking to your kids. So what we do in my house, we say, hey, no screens at the table. But the odds of me or my wife or one of my kids violating that rule sometime mid meal, moderately high, unfortunately, because it's like, oh, I need to take this call or I need to do this. And so it's diminished our capacity to have deep relationships and meaningful experiences.
22:35 Rich Roll? There's some research that has come out over the last year from Carnegie Mellon, Oxford, MIT, UCLA, that basically says that reliance on AI is kind of stunting our problem solving skills, our memory retention. I think there was one study that even compared the mental impairment of reliance on these tools to that of a drunk driver and concluded that it's even worse. And so people are walking around like impaired as if they're drunk like all day long. Like it is insane what we're signing up for and kind of volunteering for.
23:21 Rich Roll? And like you, I'm Gen X, like I'm an elder Gen X. Our neurons were formed, you know, before any of these tools came online. But if you're Gen Z or Gen Alpha and you've never known anything differently, like your brain is being formed by these things. And I think there's also some studies that suggest. That even when you take these tools away, especially from a younger person, they're so used to pattern switching, you know, kind of like the attention deficit, like always trying to look at something new, that even when you remove that, like their brain is still doing that and insists upon that. So, you know, it's difficult for them to, more difficult for them to be present,
24:04 Rich Roll? to focus and, you know, to kind of concentrate or, or do any kind of like deep work.
24:11 Andrew Yang? Yeah, is AI making us smarter or dumber? I think we all know it's making us dumber. Just like when Waze and Google Maps hit, like our ability to find our way to a destination dropped.
24:25 Rich Roll? It's cognitive offload. We've just offloaded everything. It seems like a good thing, but maybe not.
24:31 Andrew Yang? Yeah, and, and the revenue model of these tech platforms is around maximizing engagement. And then AI is now like a turbo boost before that. And so what it behooves us to do is to actually try and circumscribe these tools in our own lives. I mean, you and I are both friends with Arthur Brooks. And he's had a number of rules to live by in terms of your smartphone that are actually achievable for most people. Now, do I achieve them on most days? I, I achieve maybe half of them. But there are things like stay away from your phone an hour after you wake up, an hour before you go to sleep, go meals without them,
25:16 Andrew Yang? take one phone break per day outside of these times that you're describing and take like a weekend off from your phone about every month or so. So some of these things I do every day where it's like, do I put my smartphone away before I go to bed and then do something else? Like maybe even read a book? Yeah, I, I do. Like, that's something that I think many of us can do. I, I'm not able to do it in the morning. I wake up and think I'm a very important person and I need to see what's going on. So that's not, that's not a good habit. But these are spaces. Is that we need to carve out more and more. And now I've started a company to try and help people move in that direction.
26:00 Andrew Yang? And I'm thrilled that you like what we're building with Noble Mobile. Because I think we have a chance to help a lot of people.
26:07 Rich Roll? Yeah, I love it. I mean, it is such a unique
26:13 Rich Roll? business proposition, the idea that you're you can like your cellular carrier and that the business incentive is to reduce your phone usage. Like, how does that even work? Like, do you actually pay people back? Like, how does that even make sense from an entrepreneurial point of view?
26:31 Andrew Yang? So I was inspired by a company called Cost Plus Drugs that Mark Cuban started. Are you familiar with this company?
26:38 Rich Roll? I am.
26:39 Andrew Yang? Has Mark been on?
26:40 Rich Roll? No.
26:41 Andrew Yang? Oh, we should.
26:41 Rich Roll? Love to have him on.
26:42 Andrew Yang? Yeah, we should freaking get him on. I mean, you guys would get along great. So for those people who haven't heard of this company, Cost Plus Drugs buys generic drugs in bulk and then sells them to the American public at a very modest markup of 15%. And now hundreds of thousands of Americans are getting their drugs from Cost Plus Drugs. And it's saving lives, it's saving people millions and millions of dollars. So I'm friends with Mark. I'm trying to get him to run for president. Go, Mark Cuban.
27:11 Rich Roll? What about you?
27:13 Andrew Yang? Cuban Yang, 28.
27:15 Rich Roll? You heard it here. Go ahead, sorry.
27:18 Andrew Yang? No, no, it's fine. So, you know, I'm talking to Mark and I'm like, Mark, this is genius. We have to try and figure out how to cost plus other things in Americans' lives so that we're not getting gouged as much. So I went through the average American's cost structure and it goes unsurprising. Housing, healthcare, education, food, fuel, transportation, media, and then wireless.
27:48 Andrew Yang? And so I thought, which of these could we actually cost plus? So Mark took a shot at drugs, which is in, you know, category two. And I landed in category number eight wireless. I was a Verizon customer for 20 years, paying them $150 a month just for myself. So that's, that's high. The average American spending 83 a month on their wireless. So if you're spending more than that, you're above average, you know, in a bad way. Honestly, honestly. But what shocked me was that the average European is spending $35 a month, or less than half of what we're spending. And so I started to dig in and wondered, could we get Americans a better deal?
28:32 Andrew Yang? So I went to Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile to see who would want to build something better for the public. T-Mobile said, we're interested. And so what we did is we bought all this data wholesale from T-Mobile. But we realized that if someone used less data, it would enable us to return half the savings to them. So what we're doing really is we're cost plus-ing all of your wireless data. And if you were to use less data in a given month, then we will actually send you cash back. What we've done is we built a rebate system that is like a friendly angel that rewards you for doom scrolling a little bit less.
29:12 Rich Roll? Hmm. Yeah, nobody likes their cellphone carrier. I think I've been with AT&T since I moved to Los Angeles, like 1996, 1997. It's a constant hassle. It's a nightmare, but until Noble came along, like I never thought like, well, you know, how do you change? There isn't any other option. You just have to tolerate it. They have all the leverage. And then to realize, like you explained to me, their margins and just how much they're gouging you and how difficult they make it for you to make any kind of switch or take back any of that power.
29:48 Andrew Yang? Yeah, that delta between $83 and $35 a month, I don't know if that sounds like a lot to people, but that adds up to $100 billion a year in extra spend on our wireless data. And of that $100 billion, 11 billion is going to Verizon shareholders in like just straight cash. Verizon takes 11 billion of their profits and pays it to their shareholders as a dividend. AT&T, your former carrier, took $7 billion last year and sent it to their shareholders as a dividend. And then T-Mobile was another three or so. So that's 21 billion of the 100 billion
30:28 Andrew Yang? in extra spend. One of the reasons I'm so passionate about Noble Mobile is that I firmly believe that saving money actually makes you feel better about your life, your prospects, your future. Where if you feel like time is working for you, then you feel better. Whereas if you feel like the walls are closing in and your bills are higher than your income, let's say, then you start to feel more pessimistic. So with Noble, the most you can pay in any given month is $50. And I will confess to everyone, that's what I pay a lot of months
31:06 Andrew Yang? because I'm a heavy phone user. $50 is still, you know, $100 less than I used to pay. But if you don't use a whole lot of data and Wi-Fi doesn't count in this, this calculation. So if you're at your home or your office, you're probably using no data because you're just on your Wi-Fi. The least you can pay us is $30 a month. So the average Noble user is paying $42 a month and using their phone 15 to 20% less than they did before they started with us. And I think for a lot of people here, that would be an appropriate target. Like, you're not trying to throw your phone into the ocean. Maybe some of you are. I would enjoy
31:48 Andrew Yang? that. But if I were to say to you, hey, you know, you're going to reduce your screen time by 15 to 20% and get paid for that, most people would, would be thrilled.
32:00 Rich Roll? Well, it's acknowledging an incentive that actually works. You know, the onus is on us. It's sort of this bottom up thing as the end user to figure this out. And there's all these apps. We can grayscale our phone. We can, we're sort of acknowledging like we need these things in order to function in modern society, even though our relationship with them is unhealthy. And so we try to protect ourselves with. Creating boundaries that we are constantly breaking and these apps to carve out time or block out our, you know, social media apps for periods throughout the day so that we can focus. And that's fine. But like money?
32:39 Andrew Yang? Yes.
32:40 Rich Roll? Like, oh, you're gonna pay like, I'm actually gonna save money or you're gonna refund my money? Or, you know, like that is speaking an entirely different language.
32:48 Andrew Yang? Yes, like we're simple creatures. We like measurements. We like rewards. We like money. We like getting paid for doing something that we kind of want to do, but haven't really had this kind of nudge or incentive. And we've seen it among our users. I mean, our users have changed behavior because when you're doom scrolling at the margins, you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'm actually costing myself money. If I'm out to dinner with my friends or family and I've got my phone out. And then you you get reminded, I should not have my phone out. Like, I'm here to hang out with my friends. My friends are my family. So it's been an awesome success thus
33:28 Andrew Yang? far. And it's, it's great to do something that both saves people money, which, which I love. But Hassan Minhaj, a comedian I'm friendly with, calls these guys are rectangles of sadness. It's like, you know, imagine getting rewarded for using your rectangle of sadness a little bit less.
33:51 Rich Roll? How do you think about these platforms, our relationship with them and how you're trying to message people about developing a healthier perspective on all of this?
34:01 Andrew Yang? Yeah, it's good fun. But I mean, working with folks like you and Scott Galloway and Arthur Brooks and Chelsea Handler, like all of whom have embraced Noble because they realize it's going to help people there using it. And one of the revelations I had, switching from Verizon to Noble, even I was like, is my stuff gonna work? And then when it does work exactly the same or better, then you get really fired up. You're like, wait a minute, I was giving those guys an extra $100 a month for what?
34:34 Rich Roll? Yeah, I didn't realize how easy it is to switch and you just basically toggle a few switches on your phone and it takes care of it.
34:42 Andrew Yang? Every device manufactured from 2018 on has an eSIM in it that just you can direct it to talk to another network. So for the average person, you can switch in like five or six minutes. And that's what most people don't realize. Most of us Gen Xers, we think we have to go to a store and stand in line and do all this stuff. But we're much freer than that.
35:03 Rich Roll? Well, the best way to make data work for us is to use it to schedule IRL experiences. And I know that's one thing that Noble does, like you have these phone free events. And if there's another silver lining to this moment that we're all weathering, it's a greater appreciation for connection and community. Like, these things were meant to foster that. They put distance between us and other human beings. And now we're kind of like in this moment where we're craving it more than ever. And you're seeing even, you know, young people, especially like.
35:39 Andrew Yang? Yeah, so some of the things we're messing around with, for example, would be everyone puts their phone in a box at the dinner table out at a restaurant. And then if no one actually takes their phone out, then you get 10% off your bill like paid for by Noble.
35:59 Rich Roll? More money incentive.
36:01 Andrew Yang? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we do tend to traffic in money.
36:07 Andrew Yang? But data is money. And that's one of the interesting things here. And another idea that I had was that if you go, you get together with a friend in real life and you take a picture and then you like send it to send it to us or post it, then you get like, you know, discount off your cell phone bill that that month. So that there are these, these positive ways that we can use a billing relationship. But totally agree with you that it's all meant to spur in real life experience and connection, relationships. We've had over 10,000 people attend these no phone offline parties, including the hundreds
36:47 Andrew Yang? at an event here in LA. We have one in New York in May that the New York events tend to be pretty well attended because. You know, like everyone likes to, you know, take a break and, and party. And I will say for folks like you and I, Rich, it is so much fun attending a phone free party. Because you have no choice but to look at each other and converse and maybe buy someone a drink. And it feels like a college party in the nineties again.
37:15 Rich Roll? Yeah.
37:16 Andrew Yang? And one person actually tried to get someone else's phone number and, but no one had a phone. So they wrote the number down on a napkin, just like we used to do.
37:26 Rich Roll? The nineties were the best.
37:28 Andrew Yang? In the nineties and, but it makes you realize how this phone has become such a, like a crutch and a barrier. Um, between people in those kinds of settings, because if you're bored or lonely at a bar or club today, what do you do? You bust out your phone like a second later and then you're like, oh, and then you're like soothed and you're seeing what, what's going on. But if you don't have that recourse, then you're like, all right, who's, who's here? Like what's going on?
37:53 Rich Roll? Yeah. You're, you're, yeah, you're forced to get out of your comfort zone and interact with people. I think a lot of it also has to do with the, the fact that like, nobody has them. And that, that kind of mirrors Jonathan Haidt's research with schools. It's not that, um, kids are, are against a no phone policy. They just don't want to be the only one like, so if you take the phone away from everyone, they're actually a lot happier. And everybody's kind of flourishing on a whole new level. So these phone free parties or whatever, these I R L events, like the fact that no one has it, that, that's the real appeal. Yeah.
38:31 Andrew Yang? Yeah. Yeah. Um, you can check it out at offline party.com. Um, we've now had, uh, maybe 22 of them. And I've been to virtually all of them. So I've partied a lot this past year.
38:46 Andrew Yang? Without bodes, which also is kind of liberating too, cause like, you know, no one's taking photos or recording anything. Digitally, uh, we walk around with those old school, um, film cameras, you know, like the disposables.
38:58 Rich Roll? Yeah. You talked about, I want to get into like other. Solution. So you mentioned like, oh, don't bring, you know, no phones for dinner, or you can do these, um, you can set up boundaries. This is my deep work time, et cetera.
39:14 Andrew Yang? Yep.
39:14 Rich Roll? Or institute some kind of digital detox. Like, do these ever work? Or you just rubber band back to like your bad behavior? I mean, it's, it's sort of like an intermittent fast, I suppose, if you use food as an analogy. But we still find our way back to that compulsive behavior where we're just being impulsed almost, you know, against our will.
39:36 Andrew Yang? You know, there was a study, and I think it was even run by Meta, that if you spend a week off of social media platforms, your mood improves significantly. And that's true, too, if, if someone takes your device away. So I guess like the first day you're freaking out, but then by the second or third day, you're like, oh, this is actually kind of nice.
39:56 Andrew Yang? So I'm with you that the guidelines or the time restrictions that are self-imposed tend to have real limits in their effectiveness and utility. Because you know it's always there. You know that, you know, after the meal ends, you can rush to your phone and be comforted by it. But I think what Jonathan Haidt established is really the answer, which is if no one has it, then you're fine. It's just if you're the only loser who doesn't have the phone in your school or at the party, then you feel deficient. And so that, that's the norm that can be established within a family environment,
40:41 Andrew Yang? within a company or organization, within a school district, within a friend group, maybe even within, um, you know, a locality. And that's something that Noble wants to be helpful to. And in our own lives, I mean, I I think we're our best accountability buddies and I suppose that I don't know if that's a technical addiction term.
41:07 Andrew Yang? But um, one thing I did when I was a kid, I was very profane as a kid because I was one of the only Asian kids in my town and I didn't want to be a nerd. So I just swore all the time. So then I I got to college and was still swearing all the time. And this cute girl I liked um, said, why do you cuss so much? And then I said, like, I don't know. And so I gave a couple of guys I hung out with at that time license to punch me in the arm as hard as they could anytime I said fuck or shit.
41:40 Rich Roll? Because you like this girl?
41:41 Andrew Yang? Because I like this girl and I wanted to clean up my my, you know, my act um, to uh, date her. And so of course, my friends rejoiced at the ability to like pound me anytime I I cursed, which I did all the time because I just did it like every um, you know, third sentence without thinking about it. And it totally worked. Um, and then I I stopped swearing because it got to a point, Rich, where when I swore and these guys weren't around, I would flinch because I was so used to getting pounded.
42:10 Rich Roll? Negative incentives work.
42:11 Andrew Yang? Yeah, like positive incentives work. Noble, as you guys can tell, is very, very benign and positive. Um, but if if you give someone in your life license and one of Noble's ads, which is funny, meant to be funny, is me smacking phones out of people's hands.
42:24 Rich Roll? Yeah.
42:26 Andrew Yang? But it if you give someone in your life, like the ability to, let's say it's like, hey, anytime I bust my phone out um, during a meal, like, you know, you get $5 or whatever for like your kids or whatnot, they'll call you out like every chance they get. Like, uh, if you can establish some kind of norm or culture that might be um, fun or rewarding or punitive.
42:49 Rich Roll? Yeah.
42:49 Andrew Yang? I I think, uh, you know, that that can give you hope.
42:54 Rich Roll? Yeah, it's tough, man. Like, I'll create these rules like, well, there's a difference between uh, using my phone to create something and using it to consume. But that's also just artifice. Like, I can be in denial about that.
43:09 Andrew Yang? Yeah.
43:09 Rich Roll? And I will take my phone into the gym and realize that.
43:15 Rich Roll? A workout that should take 45 minutes ends up taking two hours and I'll justify, oh, I'm making notes or I'm having creative ideas and I'm like writing them down. And so I'm kind of multitasking or I'm preparing for a podcast.
43:26 Andrew Yang? Same, same.
43:26 Rich Roll? But like, no, this is not the way.
43:30 Andrew Yang? You and I are kindred spirits. So two things we've done to try and be helpful. So number, number one, everyone will appreciate this. Everyone wants to know what their baseline is, what their current behaviors are. So if you download the Noble Life app, it's totally free, just takes a minute to download. And all it's going to do is it's going to monitor how many times you pick up your phone.
43:53 Rich Roll? Yeah.
43:54 Andrew Yang? And how much doom scrolling you're doing. And so we said 100 as like the reasonableness threshold. If you're above 100, you get these, you know, cheeky messages being like, hey, your brain might be running a little bit. And then if you're below 100, then it's like, oh, you're, you're good. And that's free, easy. It's meant to be a fun resource and tool for people. Now, one of the things, obviously, because we're a business, if you have the Noble Life app, anytime you're below 100, then you develop cash rewards, because that's the way we, we roll, we roll. And then the cash rewards then can be used as a credit for Noble Mobile. So that's
44:37 Andrew Yang? the second thing is that if you have an interest in actually getting your behavior aligned to your wireless plan, then check out Noble Mobile. We save you money, just about like, you know, everyone's saving like almost 50% or more off their cellphone bill, but then we'll in all likelihood, reduce your screen time by 15 to 20%.
44:59 Rich Roll? Yeah. I mean, the function, the aspect of that, that I like the most, I mean, the money's fine and that's great, but it's, it's showing you those metrics so that you can break the grip of denial and actually objectively see how you're behaving. Cause it's shocking.
45:14 Andrew Yang? We all lie to ourselves, man. We all lie to ourselves.
45:16 Rich Roll? This is the deal. Like, the stakes are high. This thing is eroding our ability to think clearly, to focus. It's changing our neurology. It's, it's impairing our physical health, obviously our, our, our mental health. We can't concentrate. Like, it is truly coming for all of your time. And Your life is on the line and the only resource that we can't renew in our lives is time and we squander it without thinking about it. It really is tragic. And so I think it's just, if I could say anything, it's just incumbent upon all of us to really rethink
45:57 Rich Roll? this and not be so cavalier about it. I think we're just like, oh, well, or well, everyone's doing it and it's just kind of the thing. And to understand that we have agency and that you're actually financially incentivizing people to do this, uh, this is serious business. Like, your life is truly on the line. The stakes could not be higher. And I implore everyone to rethink this relationship. And if you think it's okay, even if your screen time is high, if you do an inventory, like write down what you do every 15 minutes throughout the day and do that for a day or a week, I think pretty much everybody will be shocked at how much time they're wasting. And then we walk around saying, well, I don't have
46:41 Rich Roll? time for this, that, and the other. And the things that are most important in life end up coming last because this becomes first because we're addicted to it. And it is insane from pillar to post. And we're all just, you know, kind of accepting it. It's crazy talk.
46:59 Andrew Yang? Yes. Amen, brother. And it's interrupting our actual in real life relationships. I mean, studies have shown that you do a digital check in and you're like, oh, I'm good with this person. And you're less likely to see them face to face, catch up with them for coffee or lunch. This includes close family members. Um, and these screens are not a substitute for actual human contact. Uh, and all the science bears that out.
47:25 Rich Roll? Yeah. Um, if I could say anything, especially to young people, like the good news is
47:33 Rich Roll? The bar is so low right now, like, everybody is so distracted that if you could just develop a modicum of focus, like, maybe 20% of what you were doing when you were 23 years old, that puts you in the 99.99% like, like, like, if you could just carve out some degree of deep focus throughout the day, you can leapfrog over everyone because everyone is so distracted now. So you could actually distinguish yourself and accomplish quite a bit because everyone is so locked in on their doom scrolling.
48:09 Andrew Yang? And when you talk about accomplishing something, Rich, what I think about really is quality time with my kids. Because all too often, it's not high quality, unfortunately, you know, like, you get together with them and instead of actually having a heart-to-heart real conversation, it's just very practical and activity-based and like, I'm distracted and they're distracted. And then it's easier, you know, like, you take them on a family trip, the easiest thing to do is give your kid an iPad or screen and then they'll let them sedate themselves like on the plane ride instead of trying to, you know, tell them about where they're going.
48:43 Rich Roll? Yeah. So what's your message to parents and how do you do that as a parent yourself?
48:49 Andrew Yang? You know, I mean, I think most people know the aphorism that kids respond to what you do, not what you say. And it's one reason why, like, you know, I need to do better and be a better role model because they see right through you. If you're like, hey, don't use your screen so much, and then you bust yours out, like, you know, at the dinner table or on the family trip or whatever it is. So then you have to lead, and then you have to be good human and good spirited about it when it doesn't work the first, the second time. And then that like third or fourth time, like, maybe they'll, they'll, they'll actually enjoy it and be attentive to, you know, like, the Picasso Museum or wherever I drive them to.
49:31 Andrew Yang? That's a real story. I did drive the Turbocaster Museum.
49:34 Rich Roll? When you were running for president, what did you learn about the digital information ecosystem that the average person might not understand or be aware of?
49:44 Andrew Yang? I was competing. So you try and get attention any way you can. And so I joke with my wife, or she jokes about it being like the like presidential event Olympics, where it's like, oh, what talent do you have that translates well online? Whether it's dancing the Cupid shuffle, or getting on a skateboard, or like all these things. And, and so I think that's something that I've inhabited and lived in a way that most people don't fully understand. And, and you know what the downsides are of that, too, where like it's, it's just attention. It's like, if you can do something that's snazzy and grab someone in the first three seconds,
50:28 Andrew Yang? then you have a better chance to compete in this economy. But then, you know, if you have like a substantive message, then you're at something of a disadvantage.
50:39 Rich Roll? The election process then mirrors, you know, every kind of digital creator's experience. I mean, it's same is true in podcasting, or anyone who's trying to put a message out there. Like, if you want to capture attention. Yeah.
50:53 Andrew Yang? You've been running for president this whole time. Rich Roll for president, 28.
50:58 Rich Roll? No way. What about, are you, first of all, how are you feeling about the state of liberal democracy right now? And would you consider running again?
51:08 Andrew Yang? I don't feel great.
51:10 Andrew Yang? People reach out to me all the time, freaking out about AI. And I'd consider running again if I thought I could be constructive and generative and helpful, and actually advance real solutions. You know, one of my jokes is I'm almost too young not to run again.
51:24 Rich Roll? Yeah.
51:25 Andrew Yang? Because I'm under the age of 77, or whatever the age is.
51:30 Rich Roll? All right. Well, you heard it here. I'll interpret that as a yes.
51:34 Andrew Yang? Yang Roll 28.
51:37 Rich Roll? The Yang Gang is getting back together again.
51:40 Andrew Yang? Yang Gang plus Rich Roll.
51:42 Rich Roll? Right.
51:43 Andrew Yang? Unstoppable.
51:46 Andrew Yang? Noble Mobile, freaking get off that phone, look up, touch grass.
51:51 Rich Roll? Except people are gonna need to see you on their phones if you're gonna run for president. This is the conundrum, Andrew.
51:56 Andrew Yang? Maybe I'll show up to everyone's door physically.
51:59 Rich Roll? We can't live without them.
52:00 Andrew Yang? Yeah, and that's actually the summary, Rich. It's like, look, we know these tools are indispensable, but also that they're eating our brains and mental health. So let's do better. And, you know, I mean, I try and be good human about things, but this is like, you know, like, multimillion dollar business that wants to be a counterweight on the human side. And right now, you have this, you know, series of tech giants that just wanna extract and like, ring value from us. We wanna build something everyone's excited about and happy to be a part of.
52:33 Rich Roll? Cool. Last thing. Leave people with one actionable takeaway that they can practice today or tonight around their phone hygiene, other than signing up for Noble Mobile.
52:47 Andrew Yang? Oh, no, no, this is the most practical one, and it's even kinda catchy. Don't sleep with your phone. Don't make love to it. But what it means is really just put it in another room. Just plug it in in another room. That physiologically will help you sleep better, will help you actually wake up in a better state of mind, and that's science. Like, just the phone in your room, some part of your brain knows that it's there and wants to respond to it. So just put it to bed in the living room. And some people, when they hear this, say like, then how am I gonna wake up? There's something called an alarm clock. It costs approximately $12.
53:30 Andrew Yang? You can have one function, you can just set that alarm, but do not sleep with your phone in the same room as you.
53:37 Rich Roll? Amen, brother. Thanks, buddy.
53:39 Andrew Yang? Thanks, Rich.
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