Money tips no one taught you

You have a budget and an emergency fund (or at least know you need both) - but you want to go deeper. What else do you need to know about managing your money? Ever heard of capturing the carry on your debt, for example? Finance experts share their top tips on handling debt, investing, taxes and more. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:17Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:22Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. Okay, some confessions. I didn't know how to light a match without burning my fingers until a few years ago. Also, I have never seen The Godfather. I still don't know how to pronounce the word feral. Is it feral or feral? And until recently, despite being a financial journalist for many years, I didn't know or had never thought about some of the tips in this episode.

• 0:49Marielle Segarra?

  Like this tip about looking at the fees in your investments from financial educator Amanda Holden.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  If you're giving up 1% per year in a management fee, you're not giving up one piece of a 100-piece pie, you're giving up one piece of a six-piece pie.

• 1:06Marielle Segarra?

  Hands off my pie, by the way. She's saying, yeah, the management fee is 1%, but that fee eats into your profits. If you're earning 6% returns a year, you really don't want to lose 1% of those returns, or that pie. We'll go into much more detail on this later, but my point is, most of us are doing our best, but we have gaps in our knowledge. We don't know everything. We're busy. And nobody taught us the intricacies of things like debt and investing and the tax code. So on this episode of Life Kit, money tips nobody taught you. If you know some of them, well, good for you. But listen to the whole episode, and I think you will learn something. We talked to a bunch of financial experts and asked them to share their top tips.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about how to make better decisions to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini, one subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and

• 2:47Speaker 03

  more. Try it free for 14 days at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the Southern Environmental Law Center. No one voted for a dirty air. No one voted for polluted water. That's why S E L C is fighting back to defend the healthy environment everyone depends on, just as they've done for 40 years. Because clean air, clean water, and a healthy climate aren't political, they're fundamental. Learn more at s e l c dot org.

• 3:22Marielle Segarra?

  We're going to start with our simplest tip of the bunch. It is straightforward, but it's important. Takeaway one comes to us from Sean Spruce, a financial education consultant in North Carolina. And big picture, the takeaway is to slow your roll or take your time when it comes to borrowing money and to set borrowing limits for yourself.

• 3:43Marielle Segarra?

  So first of all, if you're looking to borrow money, take the time to see what your options are. Shop around for the best possible loan terms. Because when you're paying back a loan, the difference between a 6% and a 7% interest rate can be huge.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  A lot of communities, they have affordable loan products. They have nonprofits that provide lending services or community development, financial institutions that can provide some of these small dollar loans on more favorable terms.

• 4:10Marielle Segarra?

  Also, keep in mind, you don't have to take on the full amount you're offered if you don't need it. Yeah, it's exciting to see that a lender is willing to give you all this money, maybe more money than you've ever had access to.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Some of these more modern loan companies, you know, they're willing to loan a lot and they'll loan pretty quickly as well. But just because somebody is willing to lend you $10,000, maybe you only need $5,000. Well, think about that. Think about that because ultimately you will have to pay it back.

• 4:37Marielle Segarra?

  With interest, loans are not free. Our next takeaway is also about debt. It comes to us from Mary Childs, co-host of NPR'S Planet Money and longtime financial journalist. Takeaway two is to capture the carry on your low-interest debt. And I'll explain what that means. Basically, what it comes down to is buy low, sell high.

• 5:02Marielle Segarra?

  If you borrow money, you will generally have to pay interest. And if you lend money, which is technically what you're doing when you put your money in a savings account, lending money to the bank, you'll expect to make a profit. So here's the rule of thumb.

• 5:15Speaker 05

  When you're borrowing, you want to borrow for as cheap as possible. And when you're lending, you want to lend for as much as possible.

• 5:22Marielle Segarra?

  Let's put this into numbers. Say you're paying a mortgage on a house and your interest rate is 4.5%. That's your cost of borrowing. Now, let's say you're making your minimum payments, but you're itching to pay the mortgage off faster, just to get it off your back. So you think, maybe I'll make more than the minimum payments. Before you do that, consider if there are ways that your dollar could earn you more than 4.5%. Depending on the moment, you might earn more than that in a high-yield savings account at the bank. You're going to have to run the numbers because interest rates change. You could also earn more than that by investing through your retirement plan or a brokerage account. Some quick math here. Say you're paying 4.5% interest to borrow money for your house. But maybe you could earn,

• 6:07Marielle Segarra?

  and I'm being conservative here, an average of 7% returns if you invested the money. You'd pocket the difference between those, 2.5%. That's what's known in the finance world as the carry. Mary says professional investors do this kind of thing all the time. It's called a carry trade.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  Which is anytime you capture or capitalize on, take advantage of, the difference between two interest rates.

• 6:32Marielle Segarra?

  Back to you and your money. A few other things to consider here. First off, you want to do this with low-interest debt. So if you happen to have a student loan that's only charging 3% interest, that would be a good one to capture the carry on. On the other hand, you probably don't want to do this with credit card debt because the interest rates tend to be 20-something percent. Also, keep in mind, putting your money in a high-yield savings account and investing it in the markets are two different things. In an FDIC insured savings account, your money will be guaranteed by the federal government, up to $250,000. In the markets, your money is not guaranteed, though if you have time, you can weather the ups and downs. The stock market returns 10% a year on average.

• 7:17Marielle Segarra?

  Next up, we're going to spend some time talking about investing.

• 7:22Marielle Segarra?

  Our next takeaway comes from Amanda Holden, the founder of a financial literacy business called Invested Development, and author of the book, How to Be a Rich Old Lady. Her tips are relevant for non-ladies as well. Takeaway three: When you're investing, it's crucial to understand fees. Knowing about those will help you realistically predict your profits over time. Remember when I said earlier that the US stock market returns 10% on average per year? So if I invested $1,000 today in a stock fund, at the end of the year, I'd expect to have about $1,100. Historically, that is the case, but this is also an average.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  It is an average stretched across many, many, many years. We're talking decades. And so it does oversimplify the experience of actually getting those returns, because the reality is, returns are going to be much higher and much lower. But then again, stretched across these long time expanses, it may average out to about 10% per year.

• 8:28Marielle Segarra?

  Also, I need to note here that we can't be sure the US stock market will continue to return 10% per year on average. And we're talking specifically about stocks. So if you have a more diverse portfolio, which experts recommend, because that can be a buffer against downturns, you'd also have some money in bond funds. And those generally earn less than 10% a year, but they're lower risk, too. So when you're making estimates about how your money is going to grow in the short term or in the long term, it's generally considered good practice to use a more conservative estimate.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  And so even if you were to believe that the future is going to be exactly like the past, you might use something like a 6% or a 7% or an 8% average return to calculate your returns into the future.

• 9:14Marielle Segarra?

  All right, now let's talk about those fees. When you invest money in the markets through a retirement account or a non-retirement account, you will have to pay fees.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And this is what is so insidious is that you're never going to get a bill for these fees.

• 9:30Marielle Segarra?

  Amanda says one type of fee that you'll have to contend with is a management and administrative fee called an expense ratio. These are embedded into investment funds, and they might look tiny on paper.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  It might be less than 1%, but in the world of investing, 1% is a lot. Even something like 0.5% is a lot. And so instead of thinking about it as like one piece of a 100-piece pie, as of course we are naturally trained to do, think about it in terms of those returns we could get moving forward.

• 10:04Marielle Segarra?

  Let's say you're expecting to earn a 6% return on your investments per year.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  And you're giving up 1% per year in a management fee. You're not giving up one piece of a 100-piece pie, you're giving up one piece of a six-piece pie. And the question is, if there are only six pieces of pie, like, do we want the finance industry to have one of those pieces? Or do we want to keep all six pieces for ourselves?

• 10:29Marielle Segarra?

  So Amanda's advice? Research the funds that you're considering investing in.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Luckily, this information is pretty easy to look up. I use Yahoo Finance, which I know Yahoo's so vintage, but it's a very easy resource that you can use, and you can just type in the name, or we call it the ticker. The ticker is the nickname. It's usually between three and five letters, like A, B, C, D, X. You type that ticker into Yahoo Finance, and it's going to pull up an info sheet. And what you're going to look for is the expense ratio.

• 10:59Marielle Segarra?

  You can also find this info in your investment portal. Something to keep in mind is that expense ratios will be higher for funds that are actively managed, meaning there's a person at the helm making decisions about what stocks to buy and sell based on what they think is going to happen in the economy and in the markets.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  It is very common to see an expense ratio or a management fee for active management that is maybe between like 0.5% and 1%.

• 11:26Marielle Segarra?

  Alternatively, there's something called a passively managed fund. Those simply track the performance of a particular stock index or a set of companies. And those tend to have fees more like 0.01% or 0.04%, which is a much smaller cut of your returns.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  And the thing about active management that's interesting is that it would maybe be worth it to pay a fee if you were able to pay a manager to do better than the market's average. But what we see year after year after year after decade after decade is that active managers are not able to do better than the market. And in fact, they typically do worse. And so not only do you have to account for their fee, but you also have to account for their underperformance.

• 12:15Marielle Segarra?

  So again, 6% returns minus a 1% fee minus, let's say, 1% underperformance. That leaves you with 4% returns.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And so you have just now taken all of the risk of being invested in the stock market and earning as much as you can earn right now if you put your money in a high-yield savings account.

• 12:33Marielle Segarra?

  Which would be a real big bummer. We'll have more Life Kit after the break.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about how to make better decisions to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. One subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and more.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Try it free for 14 days at g o o dot g l e slash workspace with Gemini.

• 13:47Marielle Segarra?

  All right, we're back with Life Kit. And I'm going to ask you to buckle your seatbelts because we are about to hop on the magic school bus and dive straight into the black hole that is US tax law. Takeaway four is to understand the tax benefits of different types of retirement accounts. And don't let confusion or uncertainty stop you from investing at all.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  The taxation of retirement accounts is probably the most misunderstood concept of investing. And what I hate is that it creates this real roadblock to people getting started.

• 14:22Marielle Segarra?

  Amanda says the question is always, what's better? A 401K or a Roth IRA? And her answer is.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  All retirement accounts are good.

• 14:31Marielle Segarra?

  Retirement accounts are bank accounts that hold investments. As Amanda says in her book, you can think of them as a tax shelter for investment growth, a kind of container where your money can grow, shielded from taxes while it does. Compare that to regular non-retirement investing. You'll generally do that through what's called a brokerage account. And in that case.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  There would be two points of taxation. You are investing money that you have presumably paid income taxes on, and you are paying a tax on investment gains.

• 15:04Marielle Segarra?

  Whereas with a retirement account, there's only one point of taxation.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  It's either being taxed as income on the way in or income on the way out.

• 15:13Marielle Segarra?

  So you're paying less in taxes. And because you don't have to pay taxes on your profits yearly, your money gets to stay in the account and keep on growing. What would be tricky for anybody to give you a clear answer on, and that includes tax experts, is which kind of retirement plan is the best option for you? Which kind will leave you with the most money in the end?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Because of course, they had to make multiple different types of retirement accounts. It couldn't just be simple.

• 15:40Marielle Segarra?

  On the one hand, you have your traditional retirement accounts. That could be an IRA, a 401K, a 403B, something like that. On the other, you have Roth retirement accounts. You'll recognize these because they all say Roth in the title. Roth IRA, Roth 401K, et cetera. Let's look at the traditional kind first. You can take a certain amount of your income and shield it from taxes by putting it in a traditional retirement plan. So let's say your tax rate is something like 23%. You're not paying those taxes on the money you put into this account.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  And so the bargain here is that because you're not having to pay taxes upfront with a traditional account, you presumably could invest more.

• 16:25Marielle Segarra?

  Say 23% more. Then you invest the money. It grows tax-free, and you pay taxes once you start making withdrawals in retirement.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  What that allows you to do is kick the can down the road, but you are going to have to pay those income taxes later when you withdraw.

• 16:43Marielle Segarra?

  The thinking is that you may very likely have a lower tax rate in retirement than you do now because of the way our tax system works. On the other hand, there's a Roth account.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Roth is the reverse. You are paying income taxes upfront, but later on, you won't have to pay any income taxes when you pull the money out.

• 17:02Marielle Segarra?

  Which means you'll never pay taxes on your investment profits.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  And so here's the thing. We can go to battle on which one is best. It will probably have a lot to do with your tax situation, right? If you are a higher earner right now, it may make sense to push those taxes until later when you're going to have a much lower tax rate in retirement. If you're somebody that's not earning a lot right now, hey. Go ahead and pay the taxes, give this gift to your future self and never have to worry about income taxes again on that money. We can debate all day about whether Roth or traditional is better, but I think it obfuscates the point, which is that all retirement accounts are good because all of them allow you to grow your money tax-free.

• 17:47Marielle Segarra?

  Also, Amanda says when you game this out using different scenarios, a lot of the time you end up with a similar amount of money in the end, whether you used a traditional plan or a Roth. Here's one more wrinkle, by the way. We don't know what tax rates are going to be in 20, 30, or 40 years, so we're making decisions based on an unknown variable.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Maybe the best thing we can do is give ourselves a little bit of tax diversification and do some of both. But the best thing you can do is not let it be a roadblock to getting started and just pick one and get to moving because the much more important thing is what is happening inside of those accounts and the investing happening inside of those accounts.

• 18:29Marielle Segarra?

  Some other stuff to know. With a traditional retirement plan, you'd pay a penalty for taking money out before age 59 and 1/2. With a Roth, you can withdraw your contributions at any time without penalty. Also, there are various kinds of Roth accounts. If you're offered one through work, like a Roth 401k, you can contribute regardless of your income. That's not the case, though, for a Roth IRA or Individual Retirement Account. There's an income cutoff. It's currently $168,000 a year for single filers. However, there is a workaround that folks call the backdoor Roth. You put money into a traditional IRA,

• 19:09Marielle Segarra?

  money that's already been taxed, and then convert the account to a Roth. Asterisk here. Consult a tax advisor if you're attempting this. It is complicated. That's the tax code for you.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  What we know is that tax law in the US is like this haunted patchwork doll that has been added to and amended over time. And you can think of retirement accounts as just one cursed limb of the creation.

• 19:35Marielle Segarra?

  That brings me to our final takeaway, takeaway five, the HSA. An HSA is a health savings account. It's tax advantaged. It comes with more benefits than an FSA, a Flexible Spending Account, and you should definitely consider getting one.

• 19:52Marielle Segarra?

  If you choose a health insurance plan called a high deductible health plan, you will likely be eligible to put money into a health savings account.

• 19:59Speaker 06

  The HSA account is really the only triple tax advantaged account out there.

• 20:04Marielle Segarra?

  Diego Verdugo is a financial advisor with Principal Financial Group.

• 20:08Speaker 06

  But assuming you are using the account the way it's supposed to be used, then there are no tax implications when those funds come out.

• 20:14Marielle Segarra?

  You can put up to $4,400 a year into an HSA, tax-free, as an individual, and about double that if you have a family plan. You do not have to pay income taxes on that money.

• 20:25Speaker 06

  Very much like your retirement plan, very much like an IRA. Those funds go in on a pre-tax basis that then are able to be invested. The difference is when these funds from this account come out, and they're used to pay for those qualified medical expenses, they come out tax-free.

• 20:41Marielle Segarra?

  So, to be clear, that means you never pay taxes on the money you put into this account as long as you use it for eligible medical expenses. On top of that, in an HSA, you can usually start investing those funds in the markets once you hit a certain threshold.

• 20:56Speaker 06

  Usually that's around $2,000.

• 20:58Marielle Segarra?

  And as long as you use the money for eligible medical expenses, you won't have to pay taxes on the investment gains either. That's what Diego meant by triple tax advantaged. Another benefit is that unlike a flexible spending account, an HSA is not use it or lose it. You carry the money over from year to year and after you leave a job. And often, your employer will make a sizable contribution to your account because they want to incentivize you to choose the high deductible health plan, which tends to be cheaper for them. So, when you're choosing your insurance next year, keep the old HSA in mind. The insurance plan still needs to be the right fit for you. You'll want to consider the cost of your premiums, how high that deductible is and whether you're likely to meet it, whether your company will put money into your HSA,

• 21:44Marielle Segarra?

  what benefits are available under the plan, among other things. And high deductible health plans can be especially good for folks who rarely go to the doctor or need medical services. Though even if you do have a lot of doctor's visits, a high deductible plan can still be cheaper than the other plans. You just have to do the math. But if the plan is a good fit, think of the triple tax savings.

• 22:09Marielle Segarra?

  Okay, time for a recap. Takeaway one: Take your time when it comes to borrowing money and set borrowing limits for yourself. Just because somebody offers you a whole bunch of money as a loan doesn't mean you have to take it all. Remember, you're gonna have to pay it back with interest. Takeaway two is to capture the carry on your low-interest-rate debt. Basically, take advantage of the difference between two interest rates. Buy low, sell high. Takeaway three: You need to understand fees to help you realistically predict your investment profits over time. Takeaway four: Understand the tax benefits of different types of retirement accounts,

• 22:52Marielle Segarra?

  and don't let confusion stop you from investing at all. And takeaway five: An HSA is triple tax advantaged. It comes with more benefits than an FSA, and you should definitely consider getting one.

• 23:09Marielle Segarra?

  Whew, that's our show. Hey, before we go, I have a favor to ask. If you have a moment, could you leave Life Kit a five-star review? If we've ever helped you save a little money or make a healthier choice for yourself, made you feel a little more seen, a five-star review is a great way to show your support. And thank you. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagel, Claire Marie Schneider, Sylvie Douglas, and Mika Ellison. Engineering support comes from Zoe Vangenhoven. Fact-checking by Tyler Jones. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.