How to cook when you're not into cooking

Even if you dislike cooking, you still have to eat every day. In this episode, Margaret Eby, author of You Gotta Eat: Real-Life Strategies for Feeding Yourself When Cooking Feels Impossible, shares practical tips for getting meals on the table. Plus, Samin Nosrat, author of Salt Fat Acid Heat, offers expert advice on how to become more confident in your kitchen. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:17Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:25Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, everybody, it's Marielle. Today, we're serving up something special, direct from the Life Kit kitchen. How to cook when you're not into cooking. Or maybe when you just don't feel up to cooking. And don't worry, we are not here to evangelize about the joy of perfectly julienneed vegetables or a gorgeous, slow-roasted leg of lamb. Well, both sound lovely. Cooking doesn't have to be fancy. You don't have to learn a lot of complicated techniques or make magazine-worthy dishes for every meal. Even the most accomplished and celebrated chefs get that feeling of not wanting to step foot in the kitchen.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, I have it all the time. I think any professional cook would agree with that. I think there's a trope in professional kitchens of, you know, this thing that you do all day, and then you go home and you make yourself a peanut butter sandwich.

• 1:13Marielle Segarra?

  Samin Nosrat is a chef and the author of Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, a bestselling cookbook that won the James Beard Award in 2018. It's kind of like the Oscars of food. She hosted a Netflix show of the same name. What was on her dinner table last night?

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Annie's mac and cheese with some broccoli in it. Like, was it the most healthy thing to eat? Or was it the most, I don't know, creative thing? No, but it was the thing I needed in that time, which was just something super quick and comforting and warm.

• 1:43Marielle Segarra?

  If this answer surprises you, Margaret Eby says it's time to reconsider.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Fresno vegetables exist for a reason. Ready-made meals are there for a reason. All of those are completely valid ways of feeding yourself.

• 1:55Marielle Segarra?

  Margaret is a food writer, recipe developer, and author of the new book, You Gotta Eat: Real Life Strategies for Feeding Yourself When Cooking Feels Impossible. She says while eating is necessary, cooking can plunge us into emotional hot water. Like that lasagna recipe makes your stomach rumble. But then you start worrying about the carb content or whether you should try and find gluten-free lasagna noodles. Or you feel judged every time you use boxed breadcrumbs or jarred garlic because your mother would never. Or you really care about cooking with organic produce, but your budget is tight.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  And it's just exhausting. All of those are unbelievably valid concerns. But at the same time, I have maybe seven minutes to make lunch. I just can't solve the world's problems. I need to make some cheese and crackers.

• 2:46Marielle Segarra?

  So let me be clear. You don't have to cook. But if and when you want to, we have tools to get you started. On this episode of Life Kit, reporter Andy Tagel will help you grow your confidence in the kitchen. With the help of Samin and Margaret, she'll talk about reading between the lines of a recipe, learning to trust your taste buds, and the magic of the microwave.

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• 4:46Speaker 00

  If you can't carry a tune, you're tone deaf. Can't keep on

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Plan alive, you've got a brown thumb. There's no cooking equivalent term, but if there was one, I'd be it. That's where I started with this story. I've just never much enjoyed being in the kitchen. I'm clumsy, impatient, I hate being hot. And now with a toddler at home, I have precious spare downtime to devote to the task. So there have been many an overcooked meat, undercooked vegetable, and sadly, sadly seasoned side dish sacrificed on the altar of my cooking efforts. Maybe you can relate. I offered all of this to Samin. Like, maybe some people just don't have what it takes.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  I don't know if I buy that anybody is fundamentally never going to get better in the kitchen because cooking is a skill and skills are something that get better with practice.

• 5:39Speaker 05

  So that's takeaway one. Much to my dismay, cooking is a skill, not an innate talent. Anyone can learn, but you're gonna have to get motivated. If you're coming to this episode hot with a great big attitude towards your oven and not very much time on your hands, there's no secret sauce that's gonna change that for you. You have to decide this skill is important enough to make time for. So Margaret's big advice to get your cooking engines fired up. Find the fun.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  If there's any part of the cooking process that you enjoy even a little bit, if it sparks any kind of creativity or pleasure when you're doing it, my big advice is to notice that, is to notice if there's a part that feels good to you.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  Maybe you want to challenge yourself to eat the rainbow every week. Maybe like me, you love how much your kid loves to help out in the kitchen, so you seek out recipes that are tiny helper friendly. Or maybe like Margaret, your motivation is part craving and part saving. For example, she found a simple spicy noodle recipe online that can quickly satisfy a craving for her local Thai spot.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  And for me, it always feels like a tiny victory. You know, I'm saving $10 or whatever. That's such a huge part of it is just like, if there's any part of it at all that activates any part of pleasure in your brain, hang on to it.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  And listen, friends, all we're trying to do here is feed ourselves. At least if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you're not setting out to be a professional chef or food stylist. So if at any point you start to feel discouraged or frustrated by your lack of skills at the stove, remember, there's not just one way of doing things.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Your habits and the way that you feed yourself aren't less valid because they aren't professional kitchen habits. And in fact, you are part of a long and proud tradition of every other human on earth who has been doing this since the dawn of humans trying to make themselves some sort of food.

• 7:40Speaker 05

  An imperfectly diced onion is still a diced onion. Eggs can be made in the microwave. And according to Margaret's book, anything's a sandwich, if you're not a coward. My point is takeaway two. Expand your idea of cooking. You're probably already doing more than you think you are. What images do you conjure when you think about cooking? Is it Julia Child or Martha Stewart in perfectly pressed aprons, merrily marinating a chicken? Or the chops and thwacks of the high pressure kitchen in the TV show The Bear? Yes, chef, that is what cooking can be. But you know what else can count as cooking? The Super Bowl. So Margaret and her husband do this thing at their house where every so often, they'll turn to each other and ask, is today the Super Bowl?

• 8:26Speaker 03

  And what it means is that we are having dip for dinner. That is one of the sacred joys of the Super Bowl, no matter who's playing in it, is you get to have dip for dinner. I think anything that kind of liberates you to treat your dinner the same that you would as the light snacks that you would eat at a party and then call dinner, that's a good day.

• 8:47Speaker 05

  You can also be really liberal with what counts as a chip and what counts as a dip. Chips can be actual chips of all form or flavor. It could also be tater tots, or carrot sticks, or pita bread, or lettuce cups. Dip can be guac, or nacho cheese, or leftover chicken salad, hummus, or baba ganoush, or good old sour cream and onion. And yes, assembly counts as cooking. So if you can pop open your favorite jar of spinach and artichoke, or you can throw together a mean charcuterie board, go on, give yourself a pat on the back. You're cooking.

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Can you also perhaps use a can opener? Great. Another nutrient-dense, energy-easy cooking option to add to your repertoire: bean salad. Maybe this is something a lot of people already know about, but as someone who is far too dependent on flimsy grocery store bag salads, this recommendation was a revelation to me.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  The beauty of bean salad is that because beans are so hearty and robust, and they come in cans, you never have to worry about the ingredients all going bad before you have a chance to assemble them.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  Here are just a few options from Margaret's book. Add chickpeas, cucumbers, cherry or grape tomatoes, and tzatziki, you've got yourself a Greek-ish bean salad. Throw together cannellini beans, pesto, and Parmesan. Boom, you've got a sort of Italian bean salad. Have some leftover leafy greens that haven't yet given up in your fridge. Add some northern beans, some balsamic vinegar and olive oil, and you've got yourself a classic house salad.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  It really automatically turns something that could just be like, ugh, a can of beans. This is like what someone down on their luck in a cartoon eats for dinner to something that's really joyful and lasts in the fridge a long time.

• 10:33Speaker 05

  You get the point. Cooking doesn't have to be super taxing to be satisfying or creative. And that brings us to the microwave.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  You know, people look at it as a way to reheat leftovers, and it is really, really good at that. But also, if you are someone who can't deal with turning on the stove for whatever reason, maybe you don't even have access to a stove, it's truly amazing how much cooking you can do in a microwave.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  Microwaves are just really small, really efficient steam ovens. That means they're not going to be very good at getting food crispy, but they're great at anything with moisture content, like soups or oatmeal. You can make baked potatoes in the microwave.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  You can make enough rice just for you in a mug in the microwave, and it doesn't take very much time, and you don't have to worry about dirtying a pot or a colander. One of my very favorite tricks is making eggs in the microwave.

• 11:28Speaker 05

  Eggs of all kinds, people. Scrambled, over easy, extra cheesy. Just make sure you're using a microwave-safe container. So, nothing metal or plastic in there. Other than that, don't be scared to elevate or experiment with your comfort foods. For example,

• 11:43Speaker 03

  ramen, like packet ramen, gets a bad rap as the food of, you know, desperate college students. But it can be the base for such a satisfying, excellent meal.

• 11:55Speaker 05

  You could throw in an egg or some frozen vegetables, or you could add some peanut butter and hot sauce if you want to give your noodles a quick Thai spin.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Also, the little flavor packet is so good and you don't have to use it in ramen. Yogurt and ramen flavoring. Stir it up. It's beautiful. It's delicious.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  All right, so now we've got a healthy list of pantry meals in our pocket, some fun new combinations to try. Hopefully, you're feeling pumped up and ready to step it up a notch. Takeaway three, recipes aren't the boss of you, unless you're baking. Okay, to set ourselves up for success working with recipes, we first have to pick the right one. Just one thing that can build up your confidence and that you'll be excited about eating. It doesn't have to be the most, most beginner recipe necessarily, but...

• 12:40Speaker 03

  I would avoid doing something that is notoriously personicky and like takes, I don't know, 12 hours. Like, I wouldn't pick Casselette and I wouldn't pick a croquembouche.

• 12:55Speaker 05

  Maybe that means starting with something that's already been pre-verified for you as both simple and delicious. Beck Harlan, a fellow life kitter and anti-cooking home cook in arms, sent me her go-to dump recipe. Meaning, you just dump all the things in a pot and you're more or less done. It's a salsa verde chicken recipe from the New York Times that, now that she has it memorized, she makes for her family every week. Here in my kitchen, I decided to spring for Filipino chicken adobo. It's a classic family dish and one of my absolute favorites, so I know how it should taste. It's something I've always wanted to be able to make with ease and I know it's not terribly complicated. I opted for the New York Times version of the recipe for a few reasons. The end result looked a lot like what I grew up eating. The steps were simple and straightforward

• 13:39Speaker 05

  and the possible substitutions were clear and upfront. Which brings me to another basic tip. Before you get started, read the whole recipe.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  To A, know do I have all the ingredients? B, is this something that I can do in 15 minutes? Or is it saying, start this and then refrigerate it overnight?

• 13:56Speaker 05

  A couple of other quick starters before you really jump in. You want to make sure you have the right size and number of vessels for things. Those aren't included in a recipe. And you want to be mindful of your timing. So my recipe, for example, calls for marinating two and a half pounds of chicken one to eight hours before cooking and cooking in batches to avoid overcrowding the pan. That means I'm going to need one container for marinating, another for cooking, and another place to hold the cooked pieces, separate from serving dishes. And if I really want that chicken to pack a punch, I want to marinate it for as long as possible. Now, if any of this feels overwhelming already, a really important thing to understand about recipes is they're always up for interpretation.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Recipes aren't written on high and inscribed in a stone tablet, right? There's something that a person is making. And they are kind of a mixture of three things, which are a technical manual, a translation project from my kitchen to your kitchen, and a form of poetry. Like, I'm trying to describe what food should look or taste like to you, who has never seen it or smelled it or tasted it.

• 15:09Speaker 05

  Margaret says recipes can often be way more forgiving than people think. Sometimes, and I'm totally guilty of this, people will decide to give up before they even start because they don't have the exact amount of ingredients or the exact right thing that a recipe calls for.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  And I'm saying you should still try it. Like, if you have two onions and it calls for three onions, it's just going to taste a little less like onion than you might anticipate from the original recipe.

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Of course, use your best judgment here. If you like the sound of that hot mustard grilled chicken recipe, but you don't have mustard and you don't have chicken, you're probably out of luck. But if you don't have like a cherry pitter or the exact right size baking dish or olives imported from Greece, you can probably find a workaround. And a lot of times, in the comment sections of recipes, other people have already done that legwork for you. Now, an important caveat here. This logic doesn't always apply for baking. Baking often requires a certain degree of precision because chemistry is involved. But for a lot of other things, like soups, sauces, casseroles, most foods you'll make for casual dinner, you are the ultimate authority in your kitchen.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  So returning to that adobo, my recipe calls for one teaspoon of black peppercorns and two teaspoons of granulated sugar. It's OK to eyeball those kinds of measurements. In fact, that might even be part of the fun.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Particularly when you're looking at something like spices. OK, like the intensity of the spice that you have, there's no way of knowing if it is more or less than the recipe developer's intensity. And so you can kind of look and say, OK, they're saying a quarter of a teaspoon. That's not very much, so I'm going to put in not very much. They're saying a tablespoon, that's more. I'm going to put in more. I'm going to like maybe shake it out in the palm of my hand and make sure that that's like about a tablespoon and throw it in.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  You add your spices at will. You brown or boil or braise the best you can. And before you know it, you've cooked a whole recipe. And maybe you even liked how it turned out. Maybe you like it enough to try it again next week. Suddenly, you have a go-to dish, and you can start to build your skills from there.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  If you can get like one or two or three wins under your belt, then you can start to eventually, over time, learn, oh, wait, the same method I use for this chicken adobo, it's basically a braise or a stew. I can change the flavors and it can become Hawaiian shoyu chicken. Or I can change the flavors and the spices and it can quickly become a delicious Tex-Mex taco filling.

• 17:49Speaker 05

  This brings us to takeaway four. Trust your taste buds to keep building your cooking confidence. So maybe at this point, you're asking, but how do I just grow those cooking instincts? Like Margaret's Ramen Packet and Yogurt Dip, or flipping an adobo into a Tex-Mex taco. I love both of those ideas, for the record, but I would never think to do them on my own. When I look into a fridge of mismatched ingredients, I am instantly forlorn. But Samin says it's really not all that complicated. If you know what you like to eat, you can figure out what you like to cook. She broke it down really simply and with extremely Californian sensibilities. She was like, okay, Andy, you're from LA. You know when you order a burrito and you watch someone put it together in front of you?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  But the chicken looks a little dry, so I'm gonna have them put sour cream and guacamole in there because I want, I want to add something to be moist and creamy to balance out that dry chicken. Or I like black beans instead of refried beans because the refried beans are too runny and they make the burrito too soft.

• 18:49Speaker 05

  Those instinctive preferences you have for your perfect bite are the same ones you can use to guide you when you cook. And they can be broken down into four basics you've certainly heard of before. Salt, fat, acid, heat.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  And it's just that maybe you have not connected the dots of, oh, sour cream is a fat, but it's tangy, it's also an acid. When I get some refried beans, those are, you know, salty and fatty. And then on top of that, the only other sort of thing that's not part of salt and fat and acid is texture. So that's the crunch or the creamy or the fresh thing.

• 19:27Speaker 05

  Once you have that basic salt, fat, acid, heat framework, try using it with your own cooking. Like, does this bean salad need more acid for tang? Should I grab some chili oil? This ramen could use some extra heat, right?

• 19:38Speaker 02

  And beyond that, when I'm saying, oh, you learn your adobo and you can turn that to a taco, all it is, is just learning what flavor combinations are traditional to what parts of the world. And that you can do by Googling a recipe.

• 19:51Speaker 05

  You can also follow chefs you like and trust online to see how they do things. Samin mentioned Solah Elweli and Melissa Clark, two chefs we've had on the show, as great resources for cooks just starting out.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  And then eventually it's tasting your way. Your palate develops only with time and only with paying attention. And it doesn't have to be only that you're developing your palate. When you cook, you can always just sort of decide to tune in when you're eating.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  So next mealtime or snack time, eat extra slowly, mindfully. We've got an excellent episode on just how to do that if you need inspiration. Maybe close your eyes on that first bite. What taste hits you first? What lingers? Could it use a crunch, a kick? But you don't have to stick with professionals or like make a reservation at a Michelin star restaurant to train your taste buds.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  There is something to learn even from Doritos.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  Then bring that data with you the next time it's your turn to make dinner. And don't be scared to get weird with it.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  Stoners get a bad rap in the kitchen, but like the very classic stoner thing where you're like, I'm gonna throw all these things into a sandwich. That's also kind of the same instinct as a lot of chefs, right? Like, you're just kind of experimenting and poking around the edges and seeing what tastes good. And, okay, maybe it doesn't taste that good. So what? You're out like a sandwich? I think if there's something that catches your fancy and you wanna try it, try it. And usually, it's edible. And if it's really not edible, then I do usually have Bagel Bites on hand.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  Which brings us to our final takeaway, takeaway five. Sometimes, you're gonna need the Bagel Bites. And that's okay. By Bagel Bites, I just mean anything that's incredibly easy for you in a pinch, like avocado toast or a microwave baked potato. Messing up every now and then is just a part of the process. For everybody. Even professional chefs with award-winning cookbooks. Like, for Thanksgiving this past year, Samin decided to make prime rib.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  And I had done the math to figure out the timing. And I thought I was doing such a good job and I was tending to it. And then I fell asleep. And I had cooked it so far past what would be well done. Like, it was, I was like, oh, my God, I turned our dinner into charcoal.

• 22:06Speaker 05

  Eventually, Samin was able to find a way to save her prime rib. But she says, that's not always how it goes. So when you make a mistake, you have to determine. Is this something that can be saved or something that can't?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Things like if it's a little bit over-salted, you can sort of make up for that by balancing the other elements, adding basically more of everything else, right? More fat, like if it's, I don't know, more croutons, more rice, more whatever, to sort of increase the total volume of the dish without increasing the salt until it's back to being balanced.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  But if you accidentally dumped in a whole salt shaker for a recipe that calls for half a teaspoon, that's probably a Bagel Bite deal. Or, you know, those eggs in the microwave. Between under and overcooking, Samin says she'd definitely prefer overcooking. Undercooking can be a straight up health hazard, while a dried chicken can be an opportunity for creativity.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I would probably let that meat cool, shred it, and turn it into a chicken salad that I can make up for that dryness with either Greek yogurt, or mayonnaise, or anything creamy.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  If you realize you accidentally skipped a whole page of a recipe, or if you grabbed garlic powder instead of cinnamon, bagel bites. But if your charred is just awful charred, if those fried fish filets spend a little too long sizzling...

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Everyone scrapes. But I also encourage everyone to taste, because sometimes things look charred or burnt, and they don't actually taste burnt. So they just taste deliciously delightfully caramelized. This is again about developing that relationship to your palate and knowing where you are and what is savable.

• 23:42Speaker 05

  And listen. With all of these things, with every misstep, Margaret says, be generous with yourself. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. If you want to cook, when you want to cook...

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Remember that mistakes are part of the process, and remember that it's okay if you really can't deal with it for a week or two, and then you come back to it. You can make something beautiful, and persnickety, and time consuming, and the next day just absolutely call it and eat cheese and crackers.

• 24:12Speaker 05

  Okay, friends, I'm officially hungry. Let's do a quick recap and then get to cooking, shall we? Takeaway one: Cooking is a skill, not a talent. That means anyone, even you and me, can learn and improve as long as you're willing to find the motivation and put in the work. Takeaway two: Expand your idea of cooking. Microwaving is cooking, so is charcuterie board making, and nacho arranging, and adding an egg to your ramen. So don't forget to give yourself some credit for the creativity you already have in the kitchen.

• 24:42Marielle Segarra?

  Takeaway three, remember, recipes are up to your interpretation. You are the ultimate authority in your kitchen, and it's always okay to play, unless you're baking. Takeaway four, to start improving in the kitchen, trust your taste buds. If you know what you like to eat, use that to help inform your cooking and help you find balance when you're putting a dish together. Takeaway five, failure is a part of the learning process. That's okay. Know what's worth saving and when it might be time to order a pizza and grab a bag of your favorite cheesy chips.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Honestly, Doritos are so, truly, I think, one of the greatest achievements of mankind. Like, the way they coat, you get the cheesiness, you get the salt.

• 25:25Marielle Segarra?

  Do you feel the same about Cool Ranch? Because I'm a Cool Ranch girl.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Cool Ranch, I think, has a little more tang. I like them both. I do like classics. I'm cheesy, what can I say? I'm a cheesy person.

• 25:33Marielle Segarra?

  That episode was reported by Life Kit's Andy Tagle. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on how to save money when you're grocery shopping, and another one all about how to make soup. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter. Also, we love hearing from you, so if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at [email protected]. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino.

• 26:18Marielle Segarra?

  Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.