JFK & UFOs: Who Actually Killed Our President?

The conversation delves into the complexities surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, exploring the recent release of declassified files, the involvement of the CIA, and the covert operations that led to the assassination. We discuss the confusion generated by the released documents, the historical context of the assassination, and the political machinations involving Nixon, the Mafia, and the Bay of Pigs invasion. We also touch on Kennedy's evolving policies, particularly regarding Cuba and nuclear disarmament, and the influence of figures like Mary Meyer on his transformation. This conversation delves into the intricate web of political maneuvering surrounding JFK's presidency, focusing on his vision for a joint US-Soviet space program, the challenges of nuclear disarmament, and the conspiracy theories surrounding his assassination. The discussion highlights the roles of key figures like Dulles and Oswald, the implications of the S-Force, and the potential connections to covert UFO programs, revealing a complex narrative of power, secrecy, and geopolitical strategy. Themes include the impact of fossil fuels on national security, the hidden treasures of the Philippines, and the intersection of UFOs with government operations. It explores the potential of telepathic communication with extraterrestrial beings and the Church of Scientology's involvement in UFO-related activities. | Danny Sheehan | YouTube ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@NewParadigmInstitute Website ➤ https://newparadigminstitute.org/ | Jeremy Rys | YouTube ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@AlienScientist Website ➤ https://alienscientist.com/ | Sponsors | Ground News: Go to https://ground.news/jessemichels to uncover the truth behind the headlines. Save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan with my link. Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code [JESSE15] at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 Ridge Wallet: Take advantage of Ridge’s once-a-year Memorial Day Sale and get UP TO 40% Off right now by going to https://ridge.com/COSMIC IRestore: Reverse hair loss with @iRestorelaser and unlock HUGE savings on the iRestore Elite with the code [JESSE] at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE! -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] #JesseMichels #JFKFiles #DeepStateSecrets #ThePerfectJean #Ridgepod Chapters 00:00 The JFK Assassination Files Released 06:03 The Role of the CIA and Covert Operations 12:00 Nixon's Covert Plans and the Assassination Team 18:08 Kennedy's Shift in Foreign Policy 23:55 The Secret Communications with Khrushchev 29:58 The Final Days of JFK: A Shift in Power 48:47 Kennedy's Vision for Space Collaboration 01:02:34 Nuclear Disarmament and International Relations 01:15:03 Oswald's Role and the Conspiracy 01:22:21 Cover-Up and the Warren Commission 01:29:03 Watergate and the Legacy of JFK's Assassination 01:34:42 Mobilizing Business Against Climate Change 01:40:22 The Connection Between Treasure and UFOs 01:46:08 Interviewing a Live Alien at S4 01:55:14 Fundamentalism and Alien Encounters 02:00:20 The Church of Scientology and Remote Viewing 02:06:05 Remote Viewing and National Security 02:12:59 The Church of Scientology and Sovereignty Claims 02:19:07 John Mack's Exploration of Alien Encounters 02:25:13 Worldviews and the UFO Phenomenon 02:39:10 Future of UFO Disclosure and Legislation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  President's car is now turning onto Elm Street, and it will be only a matter of minutes before he arrives at the trade mart.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  It appears as though something has happened in the motorcade route.

• 0:42Jesse Michels?

  JFK files were just released.

• 0:43Speaker 03

  The National Archives released thousands of new pages of declassified records related to President John F. Kennedy's assassination.

• 0:50Speaker 04

  Eighty thousand pages of documents is a lot to sift through. Can you just tell us who killed Kennedy?

• 0:55Jesse Michels?

  Who should be held culpable?

• 0:57Speaker 05

  I don't want to point my finger at anyone in a case like this.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  There's numerous people running up the hill alongside Elm Street.

• 1:05Jesse Michels?

  Who were the, uh, there the two men on the grassy knoll? Who were they?

• 1:08Speaker 06

  This guy's like a radio man. He looks like a Cuban. He's out of place. And he's sitting, he's sitting right next to the umbrella man.

• 1:13Speaker 07

  There's Rip Robertson, photographs of Rip Robertson, who's the field operations commander for the S-Force. Standing right there in Delhi Plaza. You got Ed Lansdale. Photographs of Lansdale sitting right there, and his wife identifying. The thing that I find to be so special about what we now know is the relationship that Oswald had with all these guys.

• 1:32Speaker 05

  Back up, man. Did you shoot the president? I'm just a taxi.

• 1:38Speaker 07

  All of this is a side product of deception and duplicity. And to think that he was alone, taken completely by surprise by this? Nonsense. It's nonsense, man. It was all set up by the highest levels. And they got away with it for 62 years.

• 1:59Speaker 04

  Different parts of the rain have different activities. Well, you know that, don't you?

• 2:18Jesse Michels?

  You know, the JFK files were just released.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  The National Archives, a short time ago, released thousands of new pages of declassified records related to President John F. Kennedy's assassination.

• 2:27Jesse Michels?

  So you have 80,000 documents that require a lot of, you know, artificial intelligence overlay, optical character recognition to make any sense of. Even then, I think very few people made any sense of them. I think they left more confused. There's a great quote by Bret Weinstein where it's like, "Looking through the JFK files is like looking for a needle in the haystack where the needle is missing." And even President Trump, when he was asked point-blank, "Who killed JFK?", after the file drop, he said, "We released the files, we did a historic thing", or whatever.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  Eighty thousand pages of documents is a lot to sit through. Can you just tell us who killed Kennedy?

• 3:03Speaker 08

  Well, you know, I was given the task of releasing that because many presidents have gone through it and they haven't released. And I said, "Release?", we even released social security numbers. I didn't want anything deleted. They said, "So what about social security?"

• 3:19Jesse Michels?

  But he kind of sidestepped the, you know, point-blank question is, who should be held culpable? And I don't think anybody has a good answer to that after that file release. I'm here with Jeremy Riss, alien scientist. You've been making epic videos for 20 years on not only UFOs and aliens, but often the science, the secret science behind all this stuff, along with sprinkling some of your favorite conspiracies. And it's, I can't wait to speak to you, man. We've had some phone conversations. We don't agree on everything.

• 3:52Speaker 06

  No, don't have to.

• 3:53Jesse Michels?

  We don't have to. That's the point of having conversations. And I'm excited to have you, man. Thank you for being here.

• 3:59Speaker 06

  For sure, man. Thanks for having me. It's great to finally be here.

• 4:02Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. All right, well, there's so many jumping off points. There were just these JFK disclosures, right? Like, what, 80,000? How many documents?

• 4:11Speaker 06

  A whole bunch. And then there's, you know, how many, how many things they didn't write down? You know, you gotta think like, you're planning to murder somebody, you don't write stuff down and keep a log and a whole bunch of incriminating evidence on yourself. So there's a lot of cool stuff in the documents that have come out so far, but, you know, really, you learn more... From talking to long-term assassination researchers who've been

• 4:33Jesse Michels?

  Way more. I feel like people came out of this way more confused than

• 4:38Speaker 06

  A lot of people did, yeah. There's a lot of, the media used it as an opportunity to once again, you know, hype up this idea that, oh, there's nothing in the documents, there's nothing new here. This is all just conspiracy theories, you know, the typical Operation Mockingbird mantras and whatnot. But, uh, yeah, really, the JFK research community has cracked this case and they've cracked it for, you know, numerous, number of years. I mean, Jim Mars was one of the first with Crossfire. That was the book that Oliver Stone's JFK was based on. And that really laid the foundation for a lot of the investigations that followed. And there's been decades and decades and tons of people have dug into this from every possible angle.

• 5:19Speaker 06

  And now it's, it's just come out that, you know, Priscilla McMillan, who interviewed Lee when he went to Russia and also befriended Marina Oswald and wrote her autobiography for her. She's CIA agent. She's a witting CIA asset. And that came out in one of the things that was revealed in the documents, which shows the level that they went through to get ahead of the sources and the story and be like, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna put our people in so that anyone getting information about this from the sources has to go through us, basically.

• 5:54Jesse Michels?

  So I know you to be, uh, you know, as deep on the topic as maybe anybody alive. And you have a very coherent narrative. So what do you think happened? Who, who killed JFK?

• 6:05Speaker 07

  Actually, the shot that was fired from the Knoll that killed him was, was Morales, David Morales. And, and he was called the Mexican, they're kind of different nicknames they had for him. But he was the crack shot out of the team, the S-Force team that had been put together to kill Fidel Castro. And it was a triangular fire team plan, you know, to have three gunmen, a crossfire, out of moving target. That was the plan. That was the structure that they'd set up and that they trained on in Oaxaca, Mexico. At the ranch of Clint Murchison Jr. They trained them up down there to do that, to kill not only Fidel Castro, but Raul Castro and Che Guevara.

• 6:50Speaker 07

  And five other commandantes they had on the list.

• 6:55Jesse Michels?

  So this was the 5412 Committee, which was run by Nixon under Eisenhower. He's setting up these sort of covert operations to take out Che Guevara and Castro. But then they get used in the assassination of JFK. How does that occur?

• 7:12Speaker 07

  Well, what happened, what happened is that the, the, the people on the task force, the people that were recruited to be on the, the S force to kill Castro, in short Castro and Che Guevara and the others, that they were rabid anti-communist Cubanos that had fled from Cuba in January of 1959, when Batista was overthrown. And they all fled up to Florida and camped out basically in Miami and Tampa primarily. And the, a lot of them were mafia gunmen that worked for Santos Trafficante,

• 7:53Speaker 07

  who was the don of the mafia in Havana and ran the gambling casinos, the houses of prostitution. But most importantly, the heroin smuggling that was coming in from Southeast Asia. Because that was critical, because the portion of the profits from the heroin sales that were going on through the mafia run by Santos Trafficante and the Gambinos, that they were running the heroin into the United States. And a portion of the profits that were being skimmed off that sale were being used to purchase military equipment and explosives to, to smuggle to the Kuomintang in China.

• 8:30Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. So this is pre-Iran-Contra, but the same sort of architecture.

• 8:34Speaker 07

  Oh yeah, same thing. And that they were, and that's where they got the idea to keep doing it. You know, so that they, they had the whole thing set up. For the portion of the heroin income was being used to purchase the explosives and weapons. There was a company set up with offices in Havana and in Miami. That was the Sea Supply Corporation, they called it. And on the face of it is S E A, oh, it's a sea supply corporation, some kind of maritime thing. It was a Southeast Asian supply company run by Paul Halliwell, the full-time Central Intelligence Agency employee running the operation.

• 9:13Jesse Michels?

  So he was getting the money to the Kuomintang?

• 9:15Speaker 07

  He was getting, he was actually using the money from the heroin smuggling, a portion of it, to purchase the weapons and explosives here. And then they would fly them from here. And that was that whole Terry and the Pirates thing, what they call flying the hump? That they, they had this whole operation that a fellow named William D. Pauli was, it worked for Prentice Aviation. And they were providing the airplanes and they were smuggling them and flying them into China. So there was, and you know, Claire Booth-Luce was involved in it.

• 9:48Jesse Michels?

  Henry Luce's wife?

• 9:49Speaker 07

  That's right. And it was, and Dulles was involved. They were all involved in that. That's what they call the China lobby. That was that whole group that right from way back had figured that they were planning to really turn the, the development operations of their economic investments into Asia.

• 10:06Jesse Michels?

  And, and Henry Luce then starts Life and Time Magazine, which publishes the Zapruder film with the missing frames of the JFK assassination.

• 10:14Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 10:14Jesse Michels?

  So that's a very interesting connection as well.

• 10:16Speaker 07

  Which, and as you know, I mean, I know the guy that got the film.

• 10:19Jesse Michels?

  Dick Billings.

• 10:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, Dick Billings and knew all about how they, they brought it to Rochester and doctored it. He, he sat and told me about the whole thing.

• 10:26Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. So he talks about them doctoring the film and, and taking certain frames out and stuff? And did the frames involve David Morales and the other men on the grass?

• 10:36Speaker 07

  It just, it, it, it made it clear that he was being, he was shot from the front.

• 10:41Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 10:41Speaker 07

  You could tell from that thing so that they reversed the actual frames of the, of the film.

• 10:48Jesse Michels?

  And then the guy who let out the Zapruder film is a guy named Charles Douglas Jackson, who was, basically ran psychological warfare for the United States. He was in the Psychological Strategy Board with Gordon Gray and some of these other guys. And he let out the Zapruder film in Life Magazine, which he was involved with, but with missing frames. And so.

• 11:09Speaker 06

  And that was a big thing. The other guy that ran the psychological warfare program for JM Wave station was George Joe Anides. And it recently came out that, you know, these files prove that he lied about his involvement with the program because they asked him, who ran the program? He said, I don't know. I'll have to look and check for you. And he never got back. They never got back to that question, never resolved that. Well, he's the one that ran the program. How do you not know who ran the program? You ran the program. And he lied about it to Congress and in front of and the whole entire of America. So that one, that one came out. That was it. That was a huge one. Anslinger too, that, uh, not Anslinger, um, Angleton, James Jesus Angleton. And, uh, he was running this whole, um, spying program and the mail intercept program.

• 11:51Speaker 06

  And this guy, Reuben Ephron, was in charge of that. And, um, Reuben Ephron is in the, in the files and they asked him about, do you know Reuben Ephron? And he says, no, that's a lie. You hired Reuben Ephron and he ran the, the spy program for you that was reading Lee Harvey Oswald's mail and, and spying on this dude for years because he had a 201 file into the CIA since 1959. So that they were, they have a massive file on Lee Harvey Oswald, following all his actions. And to think that he was alone, not that we didn't know, we had no idea and we were taken completely by surprise by this. Nonsense. It's nonsense, man. It was all set up by the highest levels and they got away with it for 60, 62 years.

• 12:31Speaker 07

  But it's, it's, I don't want it to be too confusing to everybody. It's, it's easier kind of having in a chronological structure to understand how this thing happened because it's a, that the entire operation was set up way back in 1960. You know, when, uh, when, uh, when, when Fidel Castro and Che Guevara and the guys overthrew Batista and drove him out in January of 1959. Richard Nixon, as the vice president under Eisenhower and the chair of the 5412 committee, that supervised covert operations, he sent all kinds of communications to Fidel Castro saying, look, you are fine. You've overthrown Batista. Okay. It's a deal.

• 13:11Speaker 07

  What we want to do is make sure you don't have any diplomatic relations with China or Russia. You can't have. He said, you can't have any kind of relations with him at all. And Fidel Castro said, screw you. Who do you think you're talking to here? You know, and you know, they, they waved the old Monroe Doctrine flag at him and said, which he didn't give a crap about. You know, and, and so Nixon got really PO'd with him. And so he then set up this covert operation, which was called originally Operation Forty. Okay. And then he recruited, naturally enough, he recruited a whole bunch of, a whole bunch of Batista supporters. Who supported the fascist authoritarian regime down there. Uh, and worked directly with Santos Trafficante.

• 13:55Speaker 07

  Because Santos Trafficante was the business partner of Batista. And Paul Hellywell. In running the heroin operations. And it was just a means of covert funding for the operations to oppose China, to oppose Mao Zedong.

• 14:11Jesse Michels?

  This is amazing.

• 14:12Speaker 07

  Yeah. And, and they didn't, they didn't want to tell Congress about it at all. Because they didn't think they could muster enough support from Congress to actually support covert operations against Mao Zedong. So they did it totally covertly. The CIA set up this entire operation. To be supporting Chen Kai-shek. In the so-called nationalist forces. And the chief of security for, for Chen Kai-shek. Was the head of the Green Gang, the major heroin operation in, in China.

• 14:41Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 14:41Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:42Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 14:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:43Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 14:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:45Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so in fifty-nine, sixty timeframe, you have the fifty-four, twelve commission. And to committee, rather, you have, of which Nixon is a head and he's sort of, you know, running kind of national security. He, uh, partners with, uh, mafia dons like Trafficante.

• 15:04Speaker 07

  Well, actually, actually, he avoided that one by one step. What he did is recruited Howard Hughes.

• 15:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 07

  He called Howard Hughes because Howard Hughes was a consultant to the fifty-four, twelve committee. He would, he had designed the Spruce Goose. Which became the prototype for the C five A cargo plane that could fly, you know, major covert operations in and equipment and stuff. He also, he also designed the Golmar Explorer. Uh, that ship that could pick up Russian submarines off the bottom of the ocean and stuff that they fell through. And a couple other extraordinarily sensitive programs that he was working on.

• 15:41Jesse Michels?

  Like what?

• 15:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I can't tell you. I can't tell you that. Uh, cause of the way I know.

• 15:48Jesse Michels?

  You've said this before to me about Howard Hughes and then I always goes at the UFO stuff. You go, no.

• 15:52Speaker 07

  No, no, it wasn't that. It was.

• 15:54Jesse Michels?

  What, what else could be this so sensitive? Is it like time travel or something?

• 15:58Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, nothing esoteric like that.

• 16:00Jesse Michels?

  You're a man of the people, Danny. We need to know.

• 16:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:03Jesse Michels?

  As evidenced by Tim Dillon's recent and masterful interview with CNN, legacy media can be a bit problematic. It's more sensationalist and divided than ever. They ask leading questions brainwashed by their social milieus. And that's why people are flocking to podcasts, but podcasts have their own limits. They're often three hours long. They're not super efficient. They aren't always fact checked. They're sort of a hybrid of entertainment and news. So how do I stay informed amidst this backdrop? I started using my new favorite service, Ground News, a tool designed for both skeptics and truth seekers like many in this community. Ground News is an app and website created by a former NASA engineer to tackle a problem we all face.

• 16:47Jesse Michels?

  How distorted the information is that we consume every day in the modern post-truth era. Ground News gathers coverage from over 50,000 sources worldwide, organizes the stories by topic, and even breaks down the bias and ownership behind each perspective. So you know what you're getting. With features like the bias bar and factuality score, it's easy to see how different outlets frame and spin the same story. When you eat certain foods, you want to see the ingredients list. This is the same thing, but for content and news. For example, when I was researching those mysterious drone sightings in New Jersey in December, Ground News gave me instant access to over 200 articles, helping me uncover every angle from the facts to the spin. Spoiler alert, I don't think they were just FAA approved research drones.

• 17:32Jesse Michels?

  So if you're tired of echo chambers and one-sided narratives, Ground News is your ultimate tool for staying informed. Making better decisions. You can follow your favorite topics and compare coverage to find the most credible sources. And for a limited time, you can get the same plan I use every day for nearly half the price. Just go to ground.news/jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, or scan this QR code to save 40% on their unlimited access vantage plan, or gift it to someone you know and have more informed discussions and hopefully chill out about those drones. I only promote brands I vet and I think you'll find them just as valuable as I do. Ground News, the truth is out there, you just need the right tools to find it.

• 18:14Speaker 07

  It's one of those, it's one of those kind of things that, one of the very rare things that I, I tend to agree that it would not be good to tell people about it.

• 18:26Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 18:26Speaker 07

  You know, it would generate all kinds of damage and it wouldn't really benefit anybody.

• 18:31Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 18:31Speaker 07

  It was, it was the bottom line is, but because of that, he trusted Hughes. And so he contacts him using the, the red phone, the, the secure phone, which he had for the 5412 committee communications, called Howard Hughes and, and Trafficante told us all this. This all came directly from Trafficante about how the whole thing happened. And actually told us the, the, the day on which Richard Nixon called on the phone, Howard Hughes, was the day after Nelson Rockefeller withdrew from the 1960 Republican presidential primary race.

• 19:12Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 19:13Speaker 07

  Nixon. Cause as soon as he withdrew, Nixon knew he was going to be the nominee for the Republican Party in 1960. And he was sure he was going to win. Right? So he then, he then took upon himself the authority basically of the incoming president to contact Hughes and ask him to put together an assassination.

• 19:32Jesse Michels?

  What's the, why did Rockefeller step down right then? I don't, I don't quite.

• 19:35Speaker 07

  He just withdrew. He, he withdrew from the primary race for the.

• 19:38Jesse Michels?

  Was that a coincidence or?

• 19:40Speaker 07

  No, no, but what it did is it, it freed up Nixon to realize he was going to be the nominee for the Republican Party. So he was therefore confident he was getting ready to be president. Yeah. So he started exercising the kind of a power that a president might do. And so he took on to himself this kind of authority to actually reach out and and have Howard Hughes. Set up an assassination team, said, but you got to keep it completely away from the White House. So you can't, you've just got to do it yourself. And so what Howard Hughes did is sent for one of his lawyers that he had, Bob Mayhew. And had Mayhew, he assigned Mayhew, said, here's the job, the president kept, they started referring to him as a president in their communication. Traffic County said so. Oh, my God. They kept referring to him. To Nixon as a president.

• 20:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, they kept referring to him as the president. Even though he was the VP. Yeah, it said, you know, that he wants, he wants this done, he wants to keep it away from the White House. And so, so Bob Mayhew went to see, because, you know, Howard Hughes was in Las Vegas, he was hanging out at the. Get mother was the, whether it was the. Flamenco or the Sands. Or the Sands, one of the two. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, he was up in the big penthouse there and it was one of the mob hotels, right? And so he knew that they were there, and so Bob Mayhew went to see Johnny Roselli, who was the bag man. You know, for, for, uh, uh, the mafia skim, the skimming the cash off those casinos to be, right? And so his principal, the guy in charge of him was Sam Giancana out of Chicago.

• 21:10Speaker 07

  And so when Bob Mayhew went to Johnny Roselli and said, look, you guys. Have your own reason for wanting to get rid of this Castro dude, you know, he shut down all your casinos, shut down your whorehouses, he said. Uh, and very importantly, they've cut off the whole heroin supply, okay? Uh, and so that you, you got your own reasons for wanting to get rid of him. So, you know, that the Nixon is assuming that you'll do this for us. And so, uh, Johnny Roselli said, well, you know, I, I don't have the authority to make a decision like that. We're gonna have to talk to Sam Giancana. And so they went together, you know, Johnny Roselli and Bob Mayhew went to Chicago and

• 21:49Speaker 07

  met with Sam Giancana and pitched the proposal to him. And Sam Giancana realized that, you know, doing a favor like this for the president was going to get them a lot of potential goodwill, right? And so and get and keep them, keep the feds off their back. So he was agreeing in principle to do it. He said, but you know, but this isn't up to me. That's Santos Trafficanti's territory. That's down in Havana. He's the Bob boss in Havana. He's even though he's up in Tampa now because he left Cuba. He said, so we have to go talk to him. So they, they went down. They went down to see him. Now they were down there about September or so. This all started around

• 22:29Speaker 07

  June, around June 7. It was when, it was when Rockefeller withdrew. June 7 of 1960. So the between that is now early September, Johnny Roselli, Bob Mayhew, and Sam Giancana went down to Florida to, and at the Fontainebleau Hotel, met with, met with Trafficanti. And they had two set, two meetings, in which finally Trafficanti tells us that, he said, you know, I agreed in principle to do this. He said, but I, I wanted to make sure that, you know, he said, it wasn't some kind of brain fart, he said, you know, on the part of, of Bob Mayhew, or even

• 23:11Speaker 07

  Howard Hughes. Wanted to make certain that this was coming from the president. That's what he, that's how he termed it. He said, and so that they had a third meeting, and a guy, another guy comes to the meeting at the, at the Fontainebleau Hotel, using the nom de guerre, Mr. Ed. And it was Sheffield Edwards, who was the chief of security of the Central Intelligence Agency, under, under Dulles. Okay. And under the Eisenhower-Bush administration. But so he comes to the meeting and, and gives them the green light to go ahead and do this. And so that's, so what Sam, what Trafficanti did is he recruited guys from

• 23:53Speaker 07

  His people that were from Havana, these gunmen that he had down there that were enforcers, who had fled with him to Florida in January of fifty nine and had gotten recruited by Richard Nixon in the CIA to run covert operations against Cuba. Because when Fidel Castro just finally thumbed his nose at Nixon and said, you know, screw you, I'm gonna have relations with anybody I want. So I'll have diplomatic relations with Russia and China. You know, therefore, quote, violating the Monroe Doctrine. You know, of allowing a foreign power to start having influence inside our hemisphere, you know, or our zone of influence.

• 24:35Speaker 07

  And so what happened is Richard Nixon had mounted this covert operation. And he recruited all of these people that were traficante gunmen and mobsters, basically, but virulent anti-communists, you know, and were all in around Miami. They had the two five oh six brigade, they had Alpha sixty six. There were a bunch of these kind of, it's unfair to call them covens, but I mean, they were these gangs like that were there, that were engaged in covert operations. And so they thought that they were kind of invested with kind of a certain kind of authority

• 25:15Speaker 07

  on the part of the federal government, because they're paid by the CIA to do this. And they set up these bases, they set one up on No Name Key, they set one up on Swan Island, they put one in the Everglades, then they had two of them at Lake Ponchartrain over in Louisiana. One on the southern coast of Lake Ponchartrain, one on the northern coast. And they set up these paramilitary bases in these rabidly anti-communist, pro Batista, you know, traficante gunmen, a lot of them, you know, were covert operators working under the auspices of the CIA to run these covert operations. So traficante says, okay, Nixon wants me to put together this assassination team.

• 25:58Speaker 07

  I'm gonna take my people who are working with the CIA.

• 26:03Speaker 07

  But in a completely different capacity, just to run covert operations. What I'm gonna do is recruit fifteen of them. I'll handpick them and we'll put them into this special S-force, they call it. And that's what they did. And they would send private planes to go pick them up. You know, at these five different paramilitary bases, they would pick up a couple of the guys at each one. And they would fly them to Fort Huachuca in Arizona. Uh, and big electronic surveillance operations that they've got going there in Fort Huachuca. Uh, and so they'd bring them there and then they would sign in and then they would just disappear. Off the records and then they were flown down to Oaxaca, Mexico.

• 26:45Speaker 07

  To the ranch of Clint Murchison Jr., very wealthy, uh, ski on of the, this, uh, oil fortune. Uh, down there who, his father, his father owned the Dallas Texans football team, you know? Cowboys. Yeah, well, later Cowboys, it was. Oh, Texans at that time, okay, interesting. That's, that's who they were and, you know, horse racing and, uh, rich people and so, and so they had this big ranch down in Oaxaca. So they set up a triangular fire team base down there to, to practice as shooting a moving target. From three different locations to get a triangular crossfire onto the site, uh, onto the target. Uh, and they were training them and Carl Jenkins was, uh, was brought in, uh, from the CIA.

• 27:30Speaker 07

  To train them on this under ZR rifle, it was the code name for the program. But they, this was a whole separate thing and it was not even known to many people at all that this was going on. Cause they were trying to keep it away from the White House. So that operation is going on and the way they funded it was from the skim of money off the casinos. Uh, and they would skim the money off the casinos, they would, uh, put the, the cash into these brand new, big expensive suitcases. And put them in the trunk of brand new Cadillac automobiles and they would drive them. And I know the guy that sold them the, the Cadillacs, cause he had the big dealership there. Whoa. In Vegas, anyway, and anyway, then I interviewed him at length about it.

• 28:14Speaker 07

  You know, and so that they drive, they drive the cars, uh, through, uh, New Orleans. Uh, and Marcelo was there and they did the audit on all the, all the money to keep track of how much money they were moving. And then they would repack it and they would drive them into Florida. Deposited in the Miami National Bank of Meyer Lansky. And then they would wire a portion of the money down into the Banco Internacional, down in Mexico City. And they put it into this account by, this lawyer by the name of O'Gario had the account down in the bank. And then they would pay the costs for the whole triangular fire team training base down in, in Oaxaca. And that's the.

• 28:56Jesse Michels?

  So how do you go from this systematic drug-running covert operation that ultimately is in support of the resistance in China, the Kuomintang and the, you know, Chiang Kai Shek? How do you go from that? And then this plan initially to take out, you know, Che Guevara and Castro who are, you know, impinging upon the Monroe Doctrine to killing JFK, setting president?

• 29:23Speaker 07

  Well, what, what happened is that, that that whole operation was going when suddenly Richard Nixon didn't get elected.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  John F. Kennedy of the state of Massachusetts has received the President of the United States 303 votes. Richard M. Nixon of the state of California has received 219 votes. This is the first time in 100 years that a candidate for the presidency announced the result of an election in which he was defeated and announced the victory of his opponent. All of you work in a cause that is bigger than any man's ambition, greater than any party. It is the cause of freedom, of justice, and peace for all mankind.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  And it is in that spirit that I now declare that John F. Kennedy has been elected President of the United States and Lyndon Johnson, Vice President of the United States.

• 30:28Speaker 07

  And Kennedy comes in and they they brief Kennedy now about the Bay of Pigs plan that they had going, but they didn't tell him about the assassination team at all.

• 30:39Jesse Michels?

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• 31:23Jesse Michels?

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• 31:41Speaker 07

  And so they lure him into the to allowing the invasion to go on, the attempted invasion at the Bay of Pigs, but he tells them right from the very beginning that he won't provide air cover. He won't provide any air cover and he won't, he won't provide any kind of US military intervention. You know, they wanted to be able to land on the beach and basically raise the flag of Free Cuba and then ask for US intervention and do it the old fashioned way.

• 32:06Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 32:06Speaker 07

  You know, just send in a paramilitary operation and Kennedy wouldn't do it. And they said, oh, he said, look, if you're telling me that the people of Cuba want to rise up against Castro because they're so unhappy with him.

• 32:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 07

  If they land on the beach and they raise the flag of a free Cuba, if the people all rally and toss out Castro, good. If you're telling me the truth that they're going to do it, you go ahead and do it.

• 32:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 32:28Speaker 07

  And what happened is they have Two or three, you know, B-25s or these old bomber planes that were down in Nicaragua, actually, that the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, Samosa, Anastasio Samosa was, uh, was supporting them in doing this, you know, was this kind of right-wing fascist dude. And so the bottom line is that they were going to provide their own air cover for this. And what happened is they were in a different time zone. And so they got there an hour late after the landing, uh, and the guys had been nice, whacked already. They sank their ammunition boat and everything, you know, uh, and so they were trapped on

• 33:09Speaker 07

  the beach and they all got arrested and, uh, and the whole thing fell through.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Wednesday, April 19th, resistance ends. All those who are not killed are taken prisoner.

• 33:20Speaker 07

  Uh, and then, then Kennedy took responsibility for it. And this is where the thing starts. Kennedy took responsibility for it, uh, in the, the Cubano guys that got all arrested were upset at him for refusing not only to provide air support, but they had, you know, that, uh, in, in fact, uh, uh, General Curtis LeMay and other folks in the Joint Chiefs had actually moved US military forces into place. They, they put naval ships with Marines in, you know, staged them contrary to the orders of the president, you know, ordered in Marines.

• 33:59Jesse Michels?

  There was so much at the time that Curtis LeMay felt the liberty to, to do by himself. Like he, he put apparently, I didn't even know this, during the Cuban Missile Crisis later, obviously, he put, uh, us into DEFCON 2 without the president's permission.

• 34:13Speaker 07

  He did.

• 34:13Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy.

• 34:14Speaker 07

  He did. Uh, and, and launched the U2 or the, the U2 to fly over Russia to do the final retargeting, which was, and, and did it at a low altitude that he knew the Russians would pick it up to send them the signals. He was trying to goad them into trying to initiate a nuclear war, you know? So the, the bottom line is that all that was going on at this time, and what happened is Kennedy took responsibility for it, uh, of the, the SNAFU, uh, and what he did is he apologized to Khrushchev.

• 34:44Speaker 07

  For having allowed that thing to go down and gave him, gave Khrushchev, Kennedy did, his solemn promise that he would cease and desist from efforts to undermine the government in Cuba. And he went down to Cuba, went down to Miami at the Orange Bowl, actually, and convened the, you know, a whole meeting of all these kind of right-wing Cubano refugees that had fled from there. And the whole stadium, he apologized to them all in person and said that he gave them his personal guarantee that the free flag of Cuba would be flying over the island by the end of his second term. And he said that to them.

• 35:21Speaker 05

  I can assure you that this flag will be returned to this brigade in a free Havana.

• 35:32Speaker 07

  They said, okay, that we got you. And then he turned around and had lied to Khrushchev and actually converted Operation Forty into Operation Mongoose. That's all it did. It set up the big operation on the Miami, University of Miami campus called JM Wave, this great big gigantic airplane set of hangars. And they had all the operations going on there. It was a full-scale war operation going on against Cuba. And so he continued doing that. And so Khrushchev said, screw you then, and started moving missiles in. And so all this was happening, all right in that first, that first period from 1961. He's elected

• 36:16Speaker 07

  in November of 1960, comes into office in January of 1961. You know, he does all this apologizing and stuff, because it was in April of 61 that the Bay of Pigs thing came down. And so he apologizes, but he's totally pissed off, you know, at the CIA for bungling this whole operation. And the days of Allen Dulles were numbered. And so he waited all the way till the fall, September, October, you know, of 61, and then pushed Dulles out. But Dulles didn't leave. He didn't leave Washington. He had his whole setup over in

• 36:56Speaker 07

  Georgetown and his big brownstone over there. And all of the guys from the CIA were going over to meet with him like every day.

• 37:04Jesse Michels?

  He had like a social club. Wasn't it called the Georgetown Set? Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 37:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, Georgetown's a very, we won't get too far, but it's a very interesting place, you know, with every administration. You've got these very wealthy, uh, social people.

• 37:20Jesse Michels?

  Beautiful brownstone, kind of old houses.

• 37:23Speaker 07

  I've been in a bunch of them.

• 37:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 07

  You know?

• 37:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 07

  And, and again, recently, the new administration.

• 37:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 07

  Has got people over there.

• 37:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember being in Michael Pillsbury's house, which I think was JFK's old house.

• 37:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:38Jesse Michels?

  In Georgetown.

• 37:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:40Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, just being like, this is amazing.

• 37:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:42Jesse Michels?

  So cool. I mean, he's the, been a kind of lead China expert in every administration since Nixon.

• 37:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:49Jesse Michels?

  And, uh...

• 37:49Speaker 07

  It's a very elite group over there.

• 37:51Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:51Speaker 07

  So, so the bottom line is that, that, that, that, so the whole operation shifts over to Operation Mongoose, being run out of JM wave, uh, and, and, and cruise chefs are sending the missiles in to Cuba, uh, and then they discover the, the missiles in there. The whole Cuban Missile Crisis comes down, right?

• 38:10Speaker 10

  Within the past week, unmistakable evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive missile sites is now in preparation on that imprisoned island.

• 38:23Speaker 07

  Goes all the way through, uh, into the, into late October, right? And then this, this bizarre thing happens with the UFO, right? Uh, that, uh, that, and, and we'll just set that aside for a moment.

• 38:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 07

  Because, because it's, it's a very, kind of compared with new piece of information. But the bottom line is that by the time they get to October 26th, the night of October 26th, they come to within like two minutes, uh, this whole thing with, with, uh, with, uh, uh, uh, General Curtis LeMay trying to instigate an actual nuclear exchange with Russia, saying that, look, the, the most, the, the Russia, if they launch nuclear missiles against us, the most, they'll kill maybe 40 million people, you know? But we'll wipe them all out and we'll get rid of that entire scourge of communism coming out of Russia, uh, and then we'll win.

• 39:15Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:16Speaker 07

  Because we've only lost... Forty million people and will have eliminated Russia as a threat. And that was his whole thinking, right? Yeah. Uh, in, in the bottom line is Kennedy is so completely horrified. Yeah. At what, how close they came to the nuclear war. This is where it starts now. Mm hmm. And what happened is he reached back out to, to Khrushchev. Mm hmm. Said, okay, you're right. I lied to you. You know, we, we, you're right. We kept on doing the Operation Mongoose. You know, but you shouldn't have put the missiles in there. Uh, we're gonna make a deal, you know, that I'll take the missiles out of Turkey. You take the missiles out of here. Uh, and he ordered the, all of those, those, uh, bases, those paramilitary bases to cease and desist from any further operations.

• 40:01Speaker 07

  But, but he didn't know about the assassination team that had been deployed. That, uh, but he ordered this shutting down of all the bases. And what happens is in December, December of, uh, of nineteen sixty-two. Uh, Frank Sturgis, who is the CIA liaison to the Cubano, uh, guys, uh, out on, uh, no name key. Uh, uh, he, he decides he's gonna, even after getting the orders from the president, that they're all to stand down and to discontinue their operations. He, in complete defiance with the, with the Cubans,

• 40:43Speaker 07

  launches an assault into Cuba and sinks a Russian ship. Whoa. Which like, nobody knows about, you know, that anymore, but they, they sank a Russian. When was this? It's December of nineteen sixty-two. Whoa. Uh, sinks a Russian ship. Kennedy freaks out over the fact that, you know, he'd already lied to, to Khrushchev once and he couldn't stand for doing it again, you know, the whole thing would fall apart. And so what he does is he, he sends in, he and Bobby, who's the Attorney General, uh, they send in six helicopter gunships, uh, with US Marshals. Sends, because he couldn't trust FBI because of Hoover. And so, and so he, he sends in US.

• 41:27Speaker 07

  Marshals and they burn out the base at at No Name Key. And arrest all those guys, including Sturges. And charge them with the violation of the neutrality act. Mounting military operations against a country with whom we have diplomatic relations, right? Uh, and hold them for almost a week and then let them go. Mm hmm. Okay, but it's kind of shot across the bow. The president's serious. The AG's in on it. You know, you're not gonna do this anymore. Mm hmm. Then a second group, the ones in the Everglades. Hmm. The, under the liaison of E. Howard Hunt. Mm hmm. Start planning another attack into Cuba in complete defiance of the president, even after the, what they had done over on, on No Name Key.

• 42:09Speaker 07

  And so Bobby and John send in the same six helicopter gunships and burn them out too. And arrest them and charge them with the neutrality act violations. Uh, and the heads of the fifty, the, the, uh, the two five oh six brigade and Alpha sixty six resolve. They're gonna kill these guys. They're gonna kill John and Bobby. Who are complete traitors that they've lied to them. They came, he came down and promised they were gonna, gonna support them and overthrowing the government. Now they're chickening out and they're, they're, they wanna kill him. Uh, but they know that they can't get away with it, you know, but they've got the S force.

• 42:48Speaker 07

  This capable of doing something like that. So they're all kind of, you know, just pawing away like a charging bull wanting to get at the president and kill him. And the attorney general, both, you know, uh, and, uh, but they can't get away with this. And so what happens is Kennedy turns out starts secretly, this is the key to this thing. He starts secretly exchanging letters with, with Khrushchev, uh, through Norman Cousins. Uh, this guy is running letter, eighteen different letters back and forth. Off, completely off channel, no, no state department oversight, no CIA coverage, anything. Mm hmm. Completely secret communications. Hmm.

• 43:28Speaker 07

  Uh, and in those letters, they're deciding that, that they're both so totally traumatized by what happened. Uh, and how their military forces can get out of control. Uh, and the, the, the nuclear weapons that threaten the total annihilation of our whole human species. So they can't let this happen. So what they do is they start discussing how they're going to. Order, each of them is going to exercise their respective executive authority to start ordering the disassembly. Of the nuclear warheads in their respective arsenals and destroy them. Not just take them and put them on a shelf somewhere where they can just screw them back on another week or so. You know, but destroy them and they they reached this agreement in principle.

• 44:10Jesse Michels?

  So he was JFK was really going for it. He was trying to denuclearize.

• 44:14Speaker 07

  Totally going for it. Totally going for it.

• 44:16Jesse Michels?

  And there's a there's this book, um, I think called Mary's Mosaic.

• 44:20Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:20Jesse Michels?

  About, you know.

• 44:21Speaker 07

  Mary Pinchin.

• 44:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Mary Pinchin, who is the wife of, uh, Corden Meyer.

• 44:25Speaker 07

  Corden Meyer.

• 44:26Jesse Michels?

  Corden Meyer, you know, World War Two veteran, who I believe came back with, uh, I think an eye patch. And, uh, you know, he turned him into a pacifist and then he sort of got in with the Dulles, Alan Dulles kind of intel cabal.

• 44:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:38Jesse Michels?

  And became this kind of war monger who I think later was in charge of Operation Mockingbird. So like.

• 44:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:44Jesse Michels?

  Incepting.

• 44:45Speaker 07

  He was the real deal.

• 44:46Jesse Michels?

  Journalism world with with intel assets.

• 44:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:49Jesse Michels?

  Um, but also, uh, was became this kind of kind of blood thirsty guy. And so his, uh, wife, uh, Mary.

• 44:58Speaker 07

  Mary Benjamin Meyer.

• 44:59Jesse Michels?

  She.

• 44:59Speaker 07

  Murdered.

• 44:59Jesse Michels?

  She was an artist and she was kind of a little more kind of spiritual hippie dippy and.

• 45:05Speaker 07

  LSD stuff.

• 45:06Jesse Michels?

  Uh, so, yeah, so she had an affair with JFK.

• 45:09Speaker 07

  More even more than that. I mean, it was it was a prolonged.

• 45:12Jesse Michels?

  Ongoing.

• 45:13Speaker 07

  Relationship. She she became in a certain sense, his actual sort of mistress.

• 45:17Jesse Michels?

  And they did LSD together.

• 45:19Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 45:19Jesse Michels?

  And I don't know.

• 45:21Speaker 07

  Provided by Tim Leary.

• 45:23Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. Provided by Timothy Leary. That's crazy.

• 45:25Speaker 07

  Provided it to him. I know the guy that that knows him.

• 45:28Jesse Michels?

  Of course you did.

• 45:29Speaker 07

  Did it.

• 45:29Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. Yeah. Okay.

• 45:31Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 45:32Jesse Michels?

  Um, are you still lugging around one of those bulky, worn out wallets?

• 45:37Speaker 07

  You know, I am.

• 45:39Jesse Michels?

  Like your posture is not great due to that wallet.

• 45:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 45:42Jesse Michels?

  Are you aware of that?

• 45:43Speaker 07

  I'm I'm currently now more self aware of my posture.

• 45:47Jesse Michels?

  It might be time for an upgrade.

• 45:48Speaker 07

  Oh, what do you suggest?

• 45:50Jesse Michels?

  My personal suggestion is Ridge Wallet. Look at this sleek design. Do you see it?

• 45:57Speaker 07

  Oh, wow. So sleek.

• 45:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Pretty sleek.

• 46:02Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. This thing holds up to 12 cards plus cash.

• 46:06Speaker 11

  All in a slim, durable and stylish package, too.

• 46:10Jesse Michels?

  You took the words right out of my mouth.

• 46:12Speaker 11

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• 46:24Jesse Michels?

  Where'd it go? I lost my wallet. I was just checking my AirTag. Easy.

• 46:30Speaker 11

  Brilliant.

• 46:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I was recently in the Colorado mountains and if I had lost my Ridge Wallet, I would have no problem tracking it down, even in the Rockies. Right now Ridge is having their once a year anniversary sale. So get up to 40% off at ridge.com/cosmic. Just head to ridge.com/cosmic to see their biggest sale of the year. After you purchase, they will ask about where you heard about them. Where did they hear about Ridge Wallet, Chris?

• 46:57Speaker 11

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• 47:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 11

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• 47:09Jesse Michels?

  And then I think they do LSD together, JFK and Mary Meyer. And, and this is sort of rumor mill stuff, so I'm curious to get your take. After that JFK, because she has this mission of like, I need to like, stop these guys, like her, her husband, Corin Meyer and all of his associates are gonna like, blow up the world.

• 47:27Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 47:28Jesse Michels?

  And she is like, we need to rein these guys in. And she does LSD with JFK and then JFK kind of, he was already more pacifist than them, but he, he becomes more hardcore, like we really need to kind of de-nuclearize.

• 47:41Speaker 07

  He saw the light, you know, and he, he went through this Metanoia, is what we refer to it. This Metanoia experience about how incredible this was, you know, and, and how extraordinarily outrageous, you know, uh, uh, Curtis LeMay and the Joint Chiefs have been, you know, and they'd already proposed to him this Operation Northwoods, you know, of, oh, okay, because they were so desperate wanting to get Castro out of there. They were so dedicated in their mission to preserve US complete domination and control of the whole Western Hemisphere, that they viewed this as an absolute horrible affront to have these guys in Cuba. So they were just desperate to get the island overthrown. And so they kept trying everything to do it.

• 48:24Speaker 07

  So, so the bottom line is when Kennedy is, is exchanging these letters and very important thing that people don't know about is that, that Khrushchev recommended that in order to verify that they were both complying with the actual, not only the disassembly, but the destruction of the nuclear warheads is that they were going to have Pope John the 23rd broker the whole deal and oversee the whole process.

• 48:52Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 48:53Speaker 07

  That's all true.

• 48:54Jesse Michels?

  Are you serious?

• 48:55Speaker 07

  That's absolutely right.

• 48:56Jesse Michels?

  Khrushchev wrote about this in his letters back?

• 48:58Speaker 07

  They were, yes, they did it in the letters of going, and these letters.

• 49:02Jesse Michels?

  Have you seen these letters?

• 49:03Speaker 07

  No, but I know what the content of.

• 49:05Jesse Michels?

  How do you know?

• 49:06Speaker 07

  From Jesuit headquarters because of, because of John, John Paul the 23rd or John the 23rd was going to be the broker.

• 49:13Jesse Michels?

  I need, I need.

• 49:13Speaker 07

  But he dies.

• 49:14Jesse Michels?

  I need to get in with the Jesuits, Danny. I don't know.

• 49:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, right, right. You know, but, but, but he dies. He dies in early June. So they were working on trying to get this done. So he dies in early June and what Kennedy decides is that in order to, to make up for the massive disfunding of the whole nuclear weapons programs in both countries, that in order to have a massive economic stimulus to replace that, that the, he wants to, and he proposes to, to Gorbachev that, or to Khrushchev, that, that they have a joint Soviet-US space program, that they completely combine their forces and they, they overcome the, the whole threat of the, the Cold War in that they join forces and going into outer space together.

• 50:01Speaker 07

  And he on June 5th of 1962, or 63 rather now, of 1963, what he does is he contacts McCone, the new CIA director, because he'd already forced into retirement, Dulles, and he says he wants to get fully briefed in on the UFO stuff. Now, this is, this becomes important because I didn't know.

• 50:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 07

  And when I knew, found out all that stuff, I didn't know about this other thing.

• 50:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the Harold Malgrin stuff.

• 50:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's right.

• 50:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so, yeah, he, he asked to get briefed about, you know, UFOs and wants to know more. And, and this is really an important fact. John McCone, before he became director of CIA after Dulles departed, was also the lead of the Atomic Energy Commission. He ran the Atomic Energy Commission. So he definitely would. Have been privy to all of the secrets when it came to UFOs, given the nuclear connection. Yes, yeah. And so he's asking for that and then I can, I can give you the little Malmgren piece, which is, so Malmgren, Harold Malmgren was presidential advisor for JFK. He was the youngest of presidential advisors. He was one of McNamara's whiz kids. Yep, yep. And McNamara's, you know, Secretary of Defense at the time. Malmgren is 27 years old.

• 51:13Jesse Michels?

  And he's in the Situation Room around the Cuban Missile Crisis. Mm hmm. And at that same time, the Cuban Missile Crisis, McNamara had put him in charge of cost assessments for these new X-ray based missile defense systems. And so they're doing these tests in the Marshall Islands, specifically at Johnston Atoll. Mm hmm. And you have this, these test series called, um, you know, Starfish Prime Tests. And, uh, one of the tests is, is the Blue Gill series. And this is this kind of X-ray projection in the nose cone of these ICBMs meant to take out incoming nuclear warheads. Yes. Which we didn't have great nuclear defense at the time. Yeah, right.

• 51:53Jesse Michels?

  And so this was this really exciting experimental thing. And the Rand Corporation had a paper on it actually earlier. And so Harold is in charge of doing all the cost assessing for this. And, uh, he catches wind that in this test, a UFO gets knocked out of the, it comes out of the plume of the nuclear blast. Yes. And he freaks out and he says, well, I need to know about this. And they used to call them tagalongs at the time. Yeah. They were so kind of, you know, uh, immune to, it was so casual. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Cold War kind of intensity was so, uh, you know, I don't know, it kind of, uh, just made them think it was this, yeah, like normal thing that you have a UFO coming out of the plume.

• 52:35Jesse Michels?

  And he said, I need to know. I have like all, I blink at Q clearances and, um, they said, no, you don't. You know, this is Office of Naval Intelligence and Atomic Energy Commission stuff or whatever. Yeah. And, um, so they say, okay, you can know, but you have to, you have to come to, you know, Sandia, uh, complex, Kirtland Air Force Base, Sandia, um, where Lawrence Preston Geis, who's the maternal grandfather of Jeff Bezos. Can show you these UFO. They didn't say, we're gonna show you these UFO pieces, we'll brief you on it.

• 53:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:05Jesse Michels?

  And then he goes, they show him the UFO pieces, he feels the debris, he feels this anomalous debris. It speaks to him telepathically, which is remarkable. Then he insists on getting briefed, or he, I don't know, maybe Bissell reaches out to him. But Richard Bissell, who was number two, went on to become number two at the CIA. But at the time, he was deputy director of plans at the CIA. And he was known as the mayor of Area 51. Goes and, and briefs him on quote unquote, other world technologies. And all of these kind of past crash retrievals, including Magenta of 1933. And so Malamgren knows about this stuff. And then JFK, I think a couple of weeks later, a few weeks later, ends up at Los Alamos. Getting briefed, getting briefed.

• 53:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so it's like, is that a coincidence? Probably not.

• 53:54Speaker 07

  Well, what it is, is that then Kennedy realizes that if, if he can give this information to Khrushchev, that will seal the deal.

• 54:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 07

  That Khrushchev will know that he's completely, he's dropping this kind of nationalistic competitive thing with, with Russia. And that they can have a genuine joint space program. And of course, they need to know about what this extraterrestrial dimension is.

• 54:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 07

  If they're gonna be venturing out into space together. And so he, so, but what happens is when he demands the briefing from McComb, the Bissell and the other guys tell, tell Dulles about it.

• 54:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 07

  Because Bissell and, and Angleton and the other guys kept going over to see Dulles all the time.

• 54:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 07

  In the Brownstone, over in Georgetown, because he never left town. He just stayed right there. Because the fact of the matter is, is that the reason he'd been appointed to be the first civilian director of the CIA is the fact that he was legal counsel for Brown Brothers Harriman.

• 54:54Jesse Michels?

  This is Dulles.

• 54:55Speaker 07

  That's Dulles, Alan Dulles. And that's where the China lobby is. That's the group of people that had decided long ago. What they would do is secretly fund the rise of Hitler in Germany after World War I.

• 55:09Jesse Michels?

  Through the Union Bank.

• 55:10Speaker 07

  To the Union Bank and all that stuff that they set up to have them be raised up to be the bulwark against Bolshevism in Europe.

• 55:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 07

  And since the investors at Brown Brothers Harriman, these two dozen.

• 55:23Jesse Michels?

  And that was the initial feeder for the CIA. It came out of the Brown Brothers.

• 55:26Speaker 07

  That's right. It was Robert Lovett who actually wrote the initial memo to Truman, saying, "We've got to reinstitute a major agency like the OSS. We've got to have it in peacetime." And it came from Robert Lovett, senior partner at Brown Brothers Harriman. And so that whole group was the seat of the China lobby, who saw the future of investment, you know, capital investment in the Asian markets, because they already owned a controlling stock interest in most of the war industry in Germany, which they'd extracted through the Versailles Treaty Agreement, long involved in process they did it. But the bottom line

• 56:05Speaker 07

  is that when, at the end of World War I, at the end of World War I, when the Treaty of Versailles was being signed, Robert Lansing, who was the Secretary of State under Wilson.

• 56:21Jesse Michels?

  Dulles's uncle.

• 56:22Speaker 07

  Was the uncle of Allen and John Foster Dulles. He had married the eldest daughter of John W. Foster, who was the maternal grandfather for both Allen and John Foster. So there was John W. Foster was the guy. And he was an arch imperialist. He's the guy that overthrew, under his, when he was Secretary of State, he overthrew the island of Hawaii and started taking Guam and that whole thing, focusing on moving into Asia.

• 56:55Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 56:55Speaker 07

  That was the whole idea of that. And so that what they did in the Versailles Treaty, he got Robert Lansing, who was the son-in-law of John W. Foster, had Robert Lansing, his son-in-law, bring his two grandsons, John Foster Dulles. And Alan Dulles with him to the Versailles Treaty. And actually as lawyers at Sullivan and Cromwell. That to draft into the into the Versailles Treaty Agreement. The war reparations requirements.

• 57:23Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 57:24Speaker 07

  Germany had to had to pay war reparations for all the damage they'd inflicted on other industries.

• 57:30Jesse Michels?

  So that made them dependent on the Union Bank.

• 57:32Speaker 07

  Well, what happened, what happened was this is even pre-Union Bank. This is in nineteen eighteen. And so what they did is they they said, look, that you're gonna have to pay these war reparations. They imposed that that financial obligation on them. But they didn't have the money to pay them. And so what happened is the investors in Brown Brothers Harriman. These twenty twenty four, you know, robber baron families, you know, the Rockefellers and and Harriman Railway people.

• 57:59Jesse Michels?

  Carnegie's and Mellon's.

• 58:01Speaker 07

  And all of these guys, Mellon's, all of them were there. And they saw their future is going westward into Asia. Because what they could do is they could secure control over Europe through Germany. And and what they would do is they would loan the money to Germany to pay the war reparations. And they would take as security for their loans, the controlling stock interest in like the Krupp Ball Bearing Factory. And in IG Farben and all these other major war industries making the explosives and chemicals. They would they would have this.

• 58:34Jesse Michels?

  And a lot, a lot of these were kind of operation paperclip based companies, right? Like they were, they were in some cases started and run by Nazis.

• 58:42Speaker 07

  Well, the Nazis weren't there really.

• 58:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay.

• 58:44Speaker 07

  This is only nineteen eighteen.

• 58:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 58:46Speaker 07

  Right. And but so so what happened is what what they did is is they set up that mechanism. By means of which the stockholders or the investors in Brown Brothers Harriman. On these two dozen wealthy, super wealthy families. What they did is they had the controlling stock interest in those companies. And then what they did is they additionally loaned additional money to Germany to rebuild their war machine. So that they could be the bulwark against Bolshevism. Because at the very end of the of the the First World War. In October of 1917, the Bolsheviks had overthrown Tsar Nicholas II and overthrown him and withdrawn them from World War I. And so what happened is this seat of kind of a socialist

• 59:29Speaker 07

  alternative to the kind of investment ideas that were housed at Brown Brothers Harriman, that they viewed them as this terrible adversary. So what they did is they leaned in on Robert Lansing, who was the Secretary of State, and sent a foreign military expedition into Russia. Almost nobody knows about it. A full-scale US-financed, US-military foreign expeditionary force into Russia in 1918 to try to crush the Bolshevik Revolution.

• 1:00:00Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, really?

• 1:00:01Speaker 07

  And they recruited the white Russians, all those kind of Tsarist Russians that were in St. Petersburg. That whole crowd.

• 1:00:07Jesse Michels?

  Was Dulles involved?

• 1:00:09Speaker 07

  Dulles was involved with Germany. He was appointed to be the legal counsel for Germany, as well as the legal counsel for Brown Brothers Harriman. So he was negotiating both sides of these financial agreements so that they had them owning.

• 1:00:27Jesse Michels?

  He was the legal counsel for Germany?

• 1:00:29Speaker 07

  For Brown Brothers Harriman.

• 1:00:30Jesse Michels?

  But for Germany, is what you mean?

• 1:00:32Speaker 07

  Yes, he was appointed by Robert Lansing, his uncle, to be the legal counsel for Germany as well, so that he was on both sides of the negotiations. He was counseling Germany to accept these loans and to rebuild their war industry. And he ended up being basically almost the legal governor general, you know, working for the German government. And so that's what he did. He choreographed that entire thing. And so what happened is they got that all set up in 1918, 1919. Then Robert Lansing sent the foreign military expeditionary force into Russia to try to crush the Bolshevik Revolution in the cradle.

• 1:01:15Jesse Michels?

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• 1:01:59Jesse Michels?

  Over the past few weeks, I've seen noticeable improvement with my friend. He says that his hair feels thicker and healthier and it's improved his overall confidence in life. The iRestor Elite uses triple wavelength technology and Lumitec red light therapy. It's engineered for deeper penetration and broader coverage. That means more stimulation to hair follicles and better, faster results. And look, if it doesn't work for you, they offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. I've never heard of a money-back guarantee that lasts that long. Try it consistently and if you're not happy, they get you your money back. Of course, the restocking fee applies. That made it a no-brainer for my friend. So give yourself the gift of hair confidence this spring. For a limited time only, our

• 1:02:40Jesse Michels?

  listeners get a huge discount on iRestor Elite when you use code JESSE, J-E-S-S-E, at irestore.com. Head over to irestore.com and use code JESSE, J-E-S-S-E, for our show's exclusive discounts on the iRestor Elite. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Hair loss is frustrating. You don't have to fight it alone, thanks to iRestor. But let's, let's get back to, okay, so 63. So, so he's aware, he's aware of UFOs and trying to do some joint space program with Khrushchev around that.

• 1:03:13Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:03:13Jesse Michels?

  He is trying to defang the American nuclear arsenal, but also have

• 1:03:17Speaker 07

  Also the Russian.

• 1:03:17Jesse Michels?

  Soviets, yeah, de-nuclearize, mutual disarmament.

• 1:03:21Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:03:22Jesse Michels?

  And he is trying to take the country back, the US back from this kind of military.

• 1:03:27Speaker 07

  China agreed. China agreed that they would not pursue any

• 1:03:30Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:03:31Speaker 07

  Nuclear program at all.

• 1:03:33Jesse Michels?

  Do we have records of that?

• 1:03:34Speaker 07

  Yes. Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:35Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:03:35Speaker 07

  Oh, yes.

• 1:03:36Jesse Michels?

  Where are the records of that?

• 1:03:37Speaker 07

  That. There's, they can dig them out because they, he reached out, they reached out to China. China only had like- He reached out to them? They, they had a real early interest in kind of trying to deal with the nuclear weapons issue, but they hadn't really mounted a program. And, and he agreed to forestall the entire thing. Really? Mm-hmm. No way. At that point, at that point in between, basically January of, of 1963 and June of 1963, at least prior to when, when John the 23rd died, that that was still a kind of totally viable operation that they were planning to do. Uh, and then when, when John the 23rd died,

• 1:04:20Speaker 07

  I think Kennedy leaned forward into it to try to, to try to make sure that the thing kept on going. And so he decided he was going to get the information for Khrushchev and give it to him as a further sign of good faith. So that they could not only, uh, have a complete, open and honest relationship by putting some skin in the game, by coughing up the information we had about this, but also prepare for the, who they were going to be encountering. Mm-hmm. You know, out in, in extraterrestrial civilization. You know, and what happened is, uh, uh, on June 5th, when he asked for it,

• 1:04:58Speaker 07

  the Bissel, it's almost certainly was Bissel, you know, found out about it, you know, and told Dulles. And so Dulles and the guys said, really, wait, they, they can't allow the nuclear missiles to be disassembled because they have to have them to deal with China. You know, because China had demonstrated already in Korea, that they could put a billion men in uniform and just melt your gun barrels down by just pouring them on you, like they did up at Incheon in the reservoir. You know, that that's what they did. They just sent in like a billion guys, you know, and just stormed them. Uh, and so they realized that they could not take on China

• 1:05:41Speaker 07

  in the future, in a traditional land war, so they needed the nuclear weapons. That's why MacArthur kept saying, what we gotta do is show them, bomb them. You know, that whole thing that, that fallout with Truman. So, so the bottom line is that China lobby freaked out about potentially losing their nuclear option against China. So that can't be, that we can't allow that to happen and we can't wait a year for the elections. You know, I mean, you know, they can probably figure out how to get rid of him in the election.

• 1:06:10Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:11Speaker 07

  You know, uh, but they couldn't wait here because he would order, start ordering the disassembly. And so what happened is that, uh, when he, when, uh, on, uh, that June 5th, that, uh, he ended up, uh, issuing the, uh, the, the demand for the, he did the same thing, same day. He did this weird thing, because I've never been quite figure out yet, about the printing these, uh, these silver certificates.

• 1:06:37Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:38Speaker 07

  He did that on June 5th, too.

• 1:06:39Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 1:06:40Speaker 07

  He did a whole bunch of these things.

• 1:06:42Jesse Michels?

  I, I met Oliver Stone once and he connects the printing of the silver certificates with JFK's assassination. Like that was somehow undermining of.

• 1:06:51Speaker 07

  Well, he was, he was doing a lot of radical things right there.

• 1:06:54Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, because I think that what happened was when, when John the 23rd died.

• 1:06:58Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:58Speaker 07

  You know, Kennedy, uh, he was hoping to, to bring, uh, John the 23rd in and kind of Catholic, uh, support for what he was doing. Uh, the ethics of what he was doing, the whole speech at, at, uh, George Washington University and all that stuff. You know, he was going through this real metanoia at that time, you know, and the, but the, the act of, of disassembly and destroying the nuclear warheads was viewed by Dulles and the guys as a, as an act of treason.

• 1:07:28Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:29Speaker 07

  You know, uh, and now that, but it was eliminating their ability to actually quell China.

• 1:07:35Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:35Speaker 07

  You know, and to, to be able to have access to the market, the Asian market. So what he did is just green lighted the S-Force.

• 1:07:43Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. So this is this kind of sleeper cell.

• 1:07:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, they're just.

• 1:07:47Jesse Michels?

  Select group of trafficante, Cuban exiles, who are these kind of killer assassins that were originally commissioned to, uh, take out Che Guevara and Castro.

• 1:07:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Jesse Michels?

  And he re-operationalizes them to take out JFK.

• 1:08:01Speaker 07

  Just all, all he had to do was just get up off their neck.

• 1:08:04Jesse Michels?

  So who were the three, who were the, uh, they're the two men on the grassy knoll. Who were they?

• 1:08:09Speaker 07

  Well, that we we know that Morales was the shooter.

• 1:08:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:08:13Speaker 07

  Because he was the guy. Uh, we we know that that Rip Robertson was there.

• 1:08:18Jesse Michels?

  Were they the two men on the grassy mole? Or was Morales on the grassy knoll?

• 1:08:22Speaker 07

  Morales was on the grassy.

• 1:08:23Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so he took the shot from the grassy.

• 1:08:25Speaker 07

  He took the shot from the grassy knoll.

• 1:08:26Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:08:27Speaker 07

  That was that was he.

• 1:08:28Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:08:29Speaker 07

  The the thing that I I find to be in a certain sense so special about what we now know that actually happened is the peculiar aspect of this is the relationship that Oswald had with all these guys.

• 1:08:41Speaker 06

  And then you look at the what's come out about um Oswald's landlady.

• 1:08:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:47Speaker 06

  She's a super curious character.

• 1:08:49Jesse Michels?

  What's her name?

• 1:08:49Speaker 06

  She's still alive, bro. She's like 93.

• 1:08:52Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:08:53Speaker 06

  Ruth Payne is her name.

• 1:08:54Jesse Michels?

  Ruth Payne, that's right. And she somehow was connected with Dulles's mistress Bancroft. Am I making that up?

• 1:09:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, this is correct. Um, she actually vacationed the summer of 1963.

• 1:09:07Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:09:08Speaker 06

  At a place called Nashawn Island, which is right up near Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts.

• 1:09:14Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:14Speaker 06

  And Nashawn Island is owned by the Forbes family. That's John Kerry Forbes.

• 1:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:19Speaker 06

  The guy who ran against Bush in 2004.

• 1:09:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 06

  Right? They were both skull and bones. They both went to Yale, secret society. Um, the Forbes family hosted this summer retreat at their mansion. Ruth Payne's there with Alan Dulles, Alan Dulles's mistress.

• 1:09:33Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:33Speaker 06

  What they discussed is, again, that's not going to be in the JFK files. It's not going to be in the Kennedy.

• 1:09:38Jesse Michels?

  What year were they together there?

• 1:09:41Speaker 06

  63.

• 1:09:41Jesse Michels?

  That's so right there.

• 1:09:43Speaker 06

  So right after she leaves Nashawn Island.

• 1:09:45Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:09:46Speaker 06

  I I think she either before she went to Nashawn or after she visits her sister in Virginia. Turns out her sister works for the CIA. That's that's come out.

• 1:09:55Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:09:56Speaker 06

  Then she goes picks up Lee and Marina in New Orleans and drives and brings them to Dallas, gives them a home. Hooks Lee up with this job at the School Book Depository Building. Which, by the way, the School Book Depository Building is an interesting, it's owned by D. Harold Byrd. Dry Hole Byrd is David Harold Byrd is his real name, but they call him Dry Hole Byrd because he was against something called the Oil Depletion Allowance. He's an oil oil man. And Kennedy wanted to get rid of this Oil Depletion Allowance, which would have made all the oil people have to basically pay a ton of money. They they wouldn't get this government tax break from Uncle Sam. So they were all, they all hated Kenny. They wanted him gone for that reason. That's where you have the, the oil, big oil element and big oil goes back way long in history.

• 1:10:39Speaker 06

  There's a whole book by Daniel Yergin called The Prize. And there's a prize part two where he talks about the whole history of oil with John D Rockefeller. And how he bought out all the railroads and, and would only ship his oil through the railroads. So he could basically have a monopoly over the oil business because you, or none of the other oil companies could ship their oil. Cause he owned all the railroads. And that's why you, you know, in monopoly, you own all the railroads. It's, it's part of the game. And um, again, he, he shut all the business and competition out and uh, they were eventually disbanded with the antitrust act. That, you know, broke up all the monopolies supposedly, but um, a lot of these oil people have a real dangerous history of murder and conspiracy going way back to then, you know, and just

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  doing terrible things. Uh, so yeah, those guys are involved and then D Harold Byrd, addition to being an oil man, he's also buys a bunch of stock in this company called LTV Ling Temco Vaat. And he's part of, he owns this big share in, in Vaat Aerospace. Well, it turns out Vaat Aerospace built all the flying saucers for Wright Patterson in the forties and fifties under a guy named Alfred C. Loading.

• 1:11:48Jesse Michels?

  Wait, wait, what? Yeah.

• 1:11:50Speaker 06

  Really?

• 1:11:50Jesse Michels?

  We built, what do you mean? When you say built the flying saucers, like built the Avrocar project, which is on record.

• 1:11:55Speaker 06

  Well, the Avrocar project was Canada. So that was, that, that's.

• 1:11:58Jesse Michels?

  But then it got moved to Wright Pat as project.

• 1:12:00Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:12:01Jesse Michels?

  Silver Bug.

• 1:12:02Speaker 06

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

• 1:12:03Jesse Michels?

  But, but like, so what, when you say built flying saucers, because.

• 1:12:06Speaker 06

  So the Vaat flying pancake is a, is a Vaat aircraft and it's a, it's literally an attempt, it's early attempt to build a, a flying saucer with propellers.

• 1:12:14Jesse Michels?

  That was before Avrocar in the forties.

• 1:12:16Speaker 06

  It was way before. This was, this was even predates that.

• 1:12:18Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting. I didn't, I didn't even heard of this. That's so, wow.

• 1:12:22Speaker 06

  It's, it's, it's, it's very obscure. It's not well known. And then T LTV Ling Tenko Vaat, um, he, he gives a bunch of money with Ling. And they invest in this right before the Kennedy assassination. And of course, aerospace and, and all those people made a ton of money off the Kennedy assassination. And then you have deep space aerospace uh, connections, deep state aerospace connections to uh, Lee Harvey Oswald, because he worked at Atsugi. Which is where the CIA was running the U2 spy plane program.

• 1:12:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:12:52Speaker 06

  You know, so.

• 1:12:52Jesse Michels?

  Well, also I believe Harold Byrd. Who owned the Texas Book Depository. He was, I think he had some connections with LBJ. And then he was also connected with Curtis LeMay. Curtis LeMay gave him an award for the Civil Air Corps when he was younger.

• 1:13:08Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:13:09Jesse Michels?

  And Curtis LeMay hated JFK.

• 1:13:11Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:12Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, you know, thought that he was, you know, kind of a traitor.

• 1:13:14Speaker 06

  LBJ, LBJ too. And there's pictures of LBJ and D. Harold Byrd together, like going to football games and, and, and they were, they were good friends. So they definitely knew each other, definitely, um.

• 1:13:26Jesse Michels?

  Maybe the craziest thing of all. I mean, JFK, we're painting a picture of him just being 360 surrounded by these like, you know, spooky people. The mayor of Dallas was a guy named Earl Cabell.

• 1:13:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:39Jesse Michels?

  And, um, his, his brother, Charles was Dallas's number two at the CIA.

• 1:13:44Speaker 06

  He planned the Bay of Pigs.

• 1:13:46Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:13:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Jesse Michels?

  And, and Earl rerouted JFK's motorcade.

• 1:13:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Jesse Michels?

  So like.

• 1:13:52Speaker 06

  They took it right by D. Harold Byrd's building. Right in D. Lee Plaza.

• 1:13:56Jesse Michels?

  It's like, come on. Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 06

  Now it gets, it gets even deeper because, yeah, it's, it's crazy, bro. Cause, uh, you know, D. Harold Byrd, you know that he had, he's a big hunter, right? He, he went, after JFK got assassinated, he went to Africa on a safari and shot a bunch of elephants, brought their heads back and had them mounted on the wall in his big trophy room. A big trophy room full of all the animal heads that he, of all the animals he killed and shot. You know what else he did? He took the window out of the six floor depository building. And he put it in his trophy room in his house.

• 1:14:27Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:14:28Speaker 06

  Why? What, what reason for that?

• 1:14:30Jesse Michels?

  No way. That's crazy. That's fucking weird. Whoa.

• 1:14:36Speaker 06

  That is like, dude, that's red flags. That is huge, huge red flags. And the fact that Ruth Payne knows D. Harold Byrd. She brings the Oswalds to Dallas, gives them this house to live in. And then all after the assassination, they go to Ruth Payne's garage, find all the evidence that, that, and then about a month after the assassination, after the FBI has already searched the home extensively, Ruth Payne comes and says, oh, me and Marina found this other, uh, note that he left for Marina. Supposedly where he, he wrote Marina a note and when he supposedly went to go shoot, uh, General Walker and left her a note, but they found this all after the case. So, and then, then they've used that to blame the shooting of Edwin Walker on Lee Harvey Oswald. He's, oh, he's, you know, he's killing this, uh.

• 1:15:20Jesse Michels?

  You know, anti-communist general, which is really weird because, you know, it doesn't make sense with the narrative of, you know, what is he just trying to kill someone to get famous? Is that who we think Lee Harvey Oswald is?

• 1:15:32Speaker 07

  You know, the people get, oh, poor Oswald, you know, it was just this innocent guy who was just a weirdo and he was just a fall guy, you know, and didn't have anything to do with it. It's not true at all.

• 1:15:42Jesse Michels?

  He was CIA trained.

• 1:15:43Speaker 07

  Well, he was actually trained by the Office of Naval Intelligence. It wasn't CIA.

• 1:15:47Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:15:48Speaker 07

  And he was in this thing called Operation Redskin. It was a whole different operation. But the bottom line is he ended up being part of this thing that was called the field intelligence. And it was, it was a kind of a private spying operation, political spying operation that was going on. The William D. Pauli and, and Hunt, E. H. Hunt, and a lot of guys, they were funding it. And that was Willoughby, George Willoughby, Charles Willoughby, rather, because when Truman got not fired, Truman wasn't fired, he was, he was.

• 1:16:24Jesse Michels?

  So what were these operations Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in?

• 1:16:27Speaker 07

  He was doing spying. He was doing spying on progressive groups. And, and around the, around New Orleans, working with Guy Bannister. It was true.

• 1:16:38Jesse Michels?

  Guy Bannister is the FBI guy who's known as like the head of the X-Files, like he on the weird desk of the FBI.

• 1:16:45Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Jesse Michels?

  And so he was 555 Camp Street, is that right?

• 1:16:49Speaker 07

  555 Camp Street.

• 1:16:50Jesse Michels?

  And so, and so Lee Harvey Oswald is working out of that building. That building mysteriously gets burned down, right?

• 1:16:56Speaker 07

  By, by Novell. Gordon Novell is the guy that was arrested and prosecuted by James Garrison in New Orleans for burning down 555 Camp Street. The office where, where, where Lee Oswald had the office along with, what was his name? The guy that was the hardcore right wing guy that was the head of the Latin American Anti-Communist League.

• 1:17:30Speaker 07

  One of the, the guy that was the former FBI guy that was down in New Orleans. The heck was that guy's name? But anyway, he had an office in the same, in the exact same building, on the exact same floor.

• 1:17:43Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:17:44Speaker 07

  With him and and Gordon Novell was prosecuted and convicted for burning down that building in the midst of in the midst of the investigation. That's crazy.

• 1:17:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay, who ends up later in the UFO conversation, you know.

• 1:18:00Speaker 07

  Tried to hire me as his lawyer.

• 1:18:03Jesse Michels?

  Robert Bigelow.

• 1:18:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so so this is all so crazy.

• 1:18:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Jesse Michels?

  So what is Lee Harvey Oswald doing exactly? He's inserting himself into like.

• 1:18:11Speaker 07

  He's he is he is in addition to spying on the different liberal liberal groups like ACLU and other things that he's doing, filing reports with this field intelligence operation going on, that what he's doing is he's infiltrating the the Free Cuba group and pretending to be a Marxist, you know, just like he when he went to Russia and did all that stuff. And so what he was doing is he was designing a character of being involved with Russia and with with Cuba. And what what the the plan was is to coax him into taking a shot at the motorcade, not hitting anybody, but taking a shot at the motorcade.

• 1:18:56Speaker 07

  And then he would he would escape, but they would have they figure out who it was. There's the gun and there's who he is and that they would blame it on Cuba and they could get back to invading the island. You know, again, it was the same guys, the same hardcore right wing guys that are into this. And so he's he's all put into place to take the shot at the motorcade and then run and escape. And what happens, he takes the shot at the motorcade, hits the curb and chips the the curb, the pieces of the cement flying. And immediately, these other shots ring out. And killed the president right in front of him.

• 1:19:35Jesse Michels?

  So you think Oswald missed?

• 1:19:36Speaker 07

  Oh, he didn't miss. He wasn't intending to hit him.

• 1:19:38Jesse Michels?

  He wasn't even. What was the what was the point, really?

• 1:19:41Speaker 07

  The point was to have a fire, a gun, a shot fired at the motorcade to be a a bungled attempt to assassinate the president and blame it on Oswald, who was a Cuban operations guy. So that they could then justify invading the island.

• 1:19:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, got it.

• 1:19:58Speaker 07

  That's that was the whole plan, a very subtle plan. And he was involved in that part. And when he fired the shot.

• 1:20:05Jesse Michels?

  Why didn't they end up using him as, oh, like, he was this Cuban operative? Because they did that didn't end up being the narrative, like, we need to retaliate against Cuba.

• 1:20:13Speaker 07

  Well, be because because he killed, he killed, uh, uh, uh, Tippit.

• 1:20:21Jesse Michels?

  The, the police officer.

• 1:20:22Speaker 07

  Tippit was sent to kill him, you know, because the whole idea is there's a dead guy. There's a lone gunman, dead guy, you know, that he took the shot at the president. You rotten bastards, you know, you're Cuban, you know, spy and you know.

• 1:20:33Jesse Michels?

  And what was his association with Cuba prior?

• 1:20:36Speaker 07

  He was, uh, he, he was part of the, uh, Free Cuba group. He, he infiltrated the group. That was when he got arrested on the street. Remember by, by, you know, sitting on the street corner, championing Cuba.

• 1:20:49Jesse Michels?

  Where, what years is?

• 1:20:50Speaker 07

  In the 1963.

• 1:20:53Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:20:54Speaker 07

  1963.

• 1:20:55Jesse Michels?

  And he's, he's chanting Free Cuba like in New Orleans or where?

• 1:20:58Speaker 07

  In, uh, in New Orleans.

• 1:21:00Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:21:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:21:01Jesse Michels?

  This is amazing.

• 1:21:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, so, so he was, he was creating this character.

• 1:21:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Speaker 07

  Who was a, who was kind of a zany guy who'd been to Russia and it was in favoring Cuba. And then he was going to take a shot at the, uh, thing, and he thought he was supposed to help get escaped.

• 1:21:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Speaker 07

  The whole theory was he was gonna, they were gonna help him escape.

• 1:21:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Speaker 07

  Uh, and then, but they were gonna blame it on him, but he's already in some safe haven.

• 1:21:23Jesse Michels?

  But in reality, they were just gonna take him out.

• 1:21:24Speaker 07

  They were gonna kill him.

• 1:21:25Jesse Michels?

  And then he killed Tippit.

• 1:21:26Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:21:27Jesse Michels?

  Sort of fumbled the plan.

• 1:21:28Speaker 07

  Soon as he saw Tippit, he just killed him.

• 1:21:30Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:21:30Speaker 07

  And, uh, and got arrested for it.

• 1:21:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 07

  You know, and, uh, so then that's why he kept saying, wait a second, I'm just a patsy here. Something's wrong.

• 1:21:39Speaker 05

  I like some legal representation. These police officers said I'm not allowed me to, to have any. I, uh, I don't know what this is all about.

• 1:21:48Speaker 07

  Kill the president?

• 1:21:49Speaker 05

  No, so I didn't, people keep asking me that. Sir? I work in that building.

• 1:21:54Speaker 07

  Were you in the building at the time?

• 1:21:56Speaker 05

  Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.

• 1:21:58Speaker 07

  Back up, man.

• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  Come on, man. No, they're taking me in because of the fact that I live in a city. I'm just a patsy.

• 1:22:07Speaker 07

  And he tried to place the call.

• 1:22:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Speaker 07

  He asked for a telephone call.

• 1:22:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 07

  To Nag's Head.

• 1:22:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 07

  Which is red skin. That was, that was the whole operation where he was dipped. That's what he was dipped.

• 1:22:19Speaker 06

  Ship dipped.

• 1:22:20Speaker 07

  Ship dipped.

• 1:22:20Speaker 06

  He was erased.

• 1:22:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, and so, so the bottom line, and that whole thing, the, the role of him, you know, that it really disappoints half of the, the Castro assassination or the, the Kennedy assassination community. Oh no, wait a second, he's supposed to be a completely innocent guy, didn't have anything to do with it. You know, wasn't involved with these people at all, and they're just these weird things, you know, that, that Garrison in, in, in New Orleans was way off base, but he wasn't. You know, that, that whole crowd was part of that, you know, and Guy Bannister and that whole crowd. Bannister was the head of the, the Central American chapter of the World Anti-Communist League.

• 1:22:59Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:23:00Speaker 07

  You know?

• 1:23:01Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:23:01Speaker 07

  You know, that's, that's who they are, you know, and that's what he was part of. And, uh, and so that's, that's how the, that's how the thing came down. And of course, as soon as it happened, all the people that knew about the S-Force said, holy shit, is the S-Force? You know, there's, there's Rip Robertson, photographs of Rip Robertson, who's the field, field operations commander for the S-Force, standing right there in Dilly Plaza. You got Ed Lansdale, you know, the photographs of Lansdale sitting right there, and his wife identifying him.

• 1:23:33Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:23:34Speaker 07

  You know, uh, and so that you got the S-Force is in town.

• 1:23:38Speaker 06

  Wow. I mean, you see Felipe Fidal Santiago on the grassy knoll, this guy's like a radio man, he looks like a Cuban, he's out of place, and he's sitting, he's sitting right next to the umbrella man. And the umbrella man's never been really solved. They, they came out with this guy, they said was the umbrella man in the, in 74 at the House Select Committee. That's not the dude. Come on now, there was a different guy there with the umbrella, symbolizing, you didn't have the umbrella to, of the air support to help with the Bay of Pigs, and now we're gonna get you. And also being the signal man on the grassy knoll. Did you know that there were three yellow painted lines right on the side of the curb where the shot, in, in conjunction where all the shots took place in the? In the kill zone and they were painted the night before.

• 1:24:20Speaker 06

  Cause Beverly Oliver was standing on one, she can be seen in the, in the Zapruder film, standing on the yellow curb on the edge of the, edge of the sidewalk on Elm Street. And she got yellow paint all over her shoe because it was freshly painted the night before. Now there's no parking on Elm Street, so there's no reason to paint the curb yellow. Everyone, everyone knows there's no parking there. It's an on-ramp to the freeway, to the Stemmons freeway. You know, nobody, nobody pulls over there and parks, so there's no reason to paint the curb unless you're marking the, the shots for the kill zone.

• 1:24:48Jesse Michels?

  Were there any other actors or, or people worthy of consideration as far as the involvement here?

• 1:24:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the question is to how many of the people in Brown Brothers Harriman? Had to sign off on this, you know, other than Dulles. Uh, and the, the, the real power was sort of in Sullivan and Cromwell. That whole law firm, you know, that, that's not a normal law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell. That was legal counsel for Brown Brothers Harriman. The Cromwell of Sullivan and Cromwell is the guy that choreographed the, the overthrowing of the Panamanian government. To build the Panama Canal. I mean, it's, it's sort of, it was sort of like, uh, uh, Williams and Connolly.

• 1:25:32Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:25:33Speaker 07

  Yeah. It's not like a normal law firm.

• 1:25:36Jesse Michels?

  Gotcha.

• 1:25:36Speaker 07

  No, that's like Sullivan and Cromwell was that back at those times. So, so the, the bottom line is that's what happened. And then as soon as the people realized what had happened, they said, shit is the S-force. You know, and so we gotta do everything in our power to cover this thing up. Because anybody finds out it's the S-force, they're gonna track it all the way back through to the agency and they're gonna blame this on the agency. Uh, whereas it wasn't the agency as such that did it. It was Dulles. You know, and his capacity as the consigliere basically for Brown Brothers Harriman. You know, and that whole China lobby operation. And so the agency went to great lengths to conceal this. Uh, and then they briefed LBJ, LBJ goes and gets ahold of Earl Warren.

• 1:26:21Speaker 07

  And says, Justice Warren, Chief Justice Warren, you gotta chair this commission because we've really got to quell. Any of these concerns about a conspiracy. And look at one thing that you gotta do, and, and he didn't want to do it. And so he said, look, let me tell you why you have to do this, he said. Because it says, you've got to be sure to conceal the fact that there was an assassination team. That was that was assigned to try to kill Castro and it was the Kennedys that put it together. And if the word gets out that there was an assassination team that Kennedy put together to try to kill Castro. Everybody's going to believe that Castro found out about it and killed the president. And if that happens, you know, people are going to go crazy and they're going to try to make us invade Cuba.

• 1:27:04Speaker 07

  And if we do that, Russia is going to cause a world war and he they lie to to Chief Justice Warren. They are Chief Justice Warren to get the Chair of the Warren Commission and they put Alan Dulles. On the who was the de facto run guy that ran the Warren Commission. You know, the whole thing to cover them all up.

• 1:27:24Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 1:27:25Speaker 07

  To cover the and and what people do is people. When they get little pieces of the information, they say, well, this is the agency that killed him.

• 1:27:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34Speaker 07

  You know, and they kill him because he screwed up the Bay of Pigs.

• 1:27:36Jesse Michels?

  Did they get Jack Ruby to kill? What what happened with Jack Ruby?

• 1:27:40Speaker 07

  That's all the mob. They said, wait, holy shit. We we've messed up here.

• 1:27:44Jesse Michels?

  How did they? How did they manipulate Jack Ruby into killing Lee Harvey Oswald?

• 1:27:49Speaker 07

  He was he was a made man. He was a made man of the of the mob, you know, when they tell you.

• 1:27:55Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they MKUltra'd him because he says he didn't remember killing Lee Harvey Oswald for a long time?

• 1:28:00Speaker 07

  I don't think that's true.

• 1:28:01Jesse Michels?

  You don't think so? But that, okay, but so then, yeah, maybe maybe not, you know, for the actual killing. But then he ends up in jail and he claims that he doesn't remember killing Lee Harvey Oswald, but is pretty lucid. And then he's seen court ordered by a psychiatrist who is on record as being part of MKUltra, a guy named Jolly West. Who is letters between him and Sidney Gottlieb, we, you know, are fairly sure that he was involved in CIA mind control stuff. And he sees Jack Ruby for 24 hours, totally not filmed, you know, and comes out. Jack Ruby has a psychotic break and he starts, you know, saying that there are Jews outside his jail cell screaming or whatever. And is never the same after that.

• 1:28:43Jesse Michels?

  And Jolly West does a press conference saying Jack Ruby has gone crazy. You know, he's lost his marbles or whatever.

• 1:28:49Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:28:50Jesse Michels?

  Um, and so.

• 1:28:51Speaker 07

  So you can't depend on anything he says.

• 1:28:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, that's gotta be pretty.

• 1:28:55Speaker 07

  Well, but.

• 1:28:55Jesse Michels?

  But that, but that would imply that the first time around, he wasn't. He wasn't MKUltra because maybe he had something to share and they needed to scramble his brain.

• 1:29:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Jesse Michels?

  To cover it up.

• 1:29:05Speaker 07

  The, the, and the, the thing is, is that just following Occam's razor, that you get a real simple.

• 1:29:11Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:12Speaker 07

  Line and narrative of what really happened.

• 1:29:14Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:15Speaker 07

  And then all kinds of activities that are undertaken to cover up. And conceal this.

• 1:29:19Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:20Speaker 07

  You know, end up being interpreted as your principal involved in making the plan to kill him.

• 1:29:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:25Speaker 07

  Uh, because it makes, it satisfies people's other more sinister worldview.

• 1:29:29Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:29:30Speaker 07

  Uh, but, but, but the bottom line is that, that the, the threat that was going to come unravel happened with the Watergate burglary.

• 1:29:37Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:38Speaker 07

  Cause what happened is when, as soon as the Democratic National Committee. Chooses Larry, uh, O'Brien.

• 1:29:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Speaker 07

  To be the new head of the Democratic National Committee. It turns out previously 20 years, he was the chief lobbyist for, for Howard Hughes in Washington.

• 1:29:54Jesse Michels?

  This is an amazing part of your narrative, which is that Larry O'Brien is the number two or, or chief lobbyist for Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was responsible on behalf of Nixon for setting up, you know, the S-force and working with traffic content.

• 1:30:08Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:30:08Jesse Michels?

  And so, uh, Nixon is, cause he was a longtime political opponent of JFK is freaked out. That he's, cause he's running for president later.

• 1:30:18Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:30:18Jesse Michels?

  Um, is in the, you know, so this is in the seventies. He says, he's, he's freaked out that basically Larry O'Brien is going to out him as having killed his longtime political opponent. Even though he set up the S-force not to kill JFK.

• 1:30:32Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:30:33Jesse Michels?

  It was to take out Castro and Che Guevara, but he's freaked out that they have compromise on him.

• 1:30:37Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:30:38Jesse Michels?

  And if you look at what happened in the Watergate scandal, the burglary.

• 1:30:42Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:30:42Jesse Michels?

  It's James McCord is involved. You represented him.

• 1:30:45Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:30:45Jesse Michels?

  You know, in the one that afterwards.

• 1:30:47Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Jesse Michels?

  McCord was known as Dulles's number two and his favorite guy or whatever. It was just, you know, his favorite understudy.

• 1:30:54Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:54Jesse Michels?

  And they put, they bugged Larry O'Brien's phone.

• 1:30:58Speaker 07

  And, and bugged his office.

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  So clearly they were targeting him and. Nixon was way up against McGovern in the polls in that election.

• 1:31:06Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:06Jesse Michels?

  So you always have to ask the question, was it like, he was paranoid, but was he that paranoid? Like, why would he do that if it weren't this sort of specific thing he was worried about?

• 1:31:14Speaker 07

  That's right. Because, because if O'Brien were to reveal the fact that he's the one that, that created the assassination team that in fact killed the president, there's no way you can talk your way out of that in time in an election here from June, between June and November. He's not going to climb out under, from under that. And so he said, we've got to, we've got to find out whether, whether O'Brien knows about it and is thinking at all about using it. So we've got to not only wiretap his telephone, but bug his office.

• 1:31:43Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 1:31:43Speaker 07

  And that's what they did. And they sent him in to do it.

• 1:31:46Jesse Michels?

  So you, you then are the lawyer for James McCord?

• 1:31:49Speaker 07

  Well, it was Bailey. It was Bailey himself. Because Bailey, it turns out, was on index four for the agency.

• 1:31:55Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:31:55Speaker 07

  Which, which we didn't know.

• 1:31:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:31:57Speaker 07

  You know, none of us knew it in the office.

• 1:31:59Jesse Michels?

  Did you learn anything from those guys about like spooky intel world? Or like, did, did any of them sort of reveal any secret? Like McCord, did you interact with McCord at all?

• 1:32:10Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:32:11Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:32:11Speaker 07

  No. But, but I, I knew that McCord was, was, was, didn't want to plead guilty. He was refusing to plead guilty. He said, why am I pleading guilty? You know, that we got, because he had been told that they were going in to, to try to find evidence that, that O'Brien and the other guys were, were coordinating and financing anti-war demonstrators.

• 1:32:34Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:32:35Speaker 07

  And he wanted to get that information. So he thought he was involved in kind of a, a typical kind of, you know, I guess meat and potatoes kind of covert operation by the agency. And they'd been instructed that if you get caught doing a covert operation for the agency stateside, which is totally illegal, call one of the people on the index four. You know, there's William Bennett Williams, and then there's Bailey, and there was this other guy Miller I knew about. You know, but, but I didn't know any of that when Bailey contacted me and asked me to come over to his shop to, to be special counsel. You know, for the burglary case.

• 1:33:13Jesse Michels?

  I want to pivot slightly. It's the same sort of, you know, world that we're talking about here. But you have a very interesting narrative about how some of maybe the initial financing occurs for secret covert UFO programs in America.

• 1:33:28Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:29Jesse Michels?

  And you, you talk about this Anderson Trust. And, uh, you know, billions of dollars worth of lost gold.

• 1:33:36Speaker 07

  1.2 trillion.

• 1:33:38Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:33:38Speaker 07

  At $32 an ounce.

• 1:33:40Jesse Michels?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:33:41Speaker 07

  Which is now $3,400.

• 1:33:43Jesse Michels?

  So what's, what's the story there?

• 1:33:46Speaker 07

  Well, it's the, the, what happened is back in about 19, about 2000. It was just like 2000 or 2000 that Mr. Aaya, who is like the third richest fellow in the entire Philippines. You know, contacts the Jesuit headquarters that he wanted to, he wanted to have somebody from the Jesuit headquarters. Cause he'd gone to a Jesuit high school and college and stuff. And wanted them to come and brief the top 50 business people in the Philippines. About what the consequences of global climate change were going to be for the island. You know, with the rising sea levels is going to swamp parts of the island and ruin businesses.

• 1:34:27Speaker 07

  Uh, and so trying to see if they would mobilize the business community to do something about it, right? So I got designated to go brief him. So I fly, I fly to the Philippines and Mr. Aaya puts me up in this like 20 star hotel. You know, with these sumptuous food everywhere, all this bizarre kind of offensive, uh, kind of opulence. And I go brief these guys and I tell them that, uh, what they should do is they should try to mobilize and get the government of the Philippines. Uh, which they had some influence with these rich business guys, you know, to lead a, the, uh, uh, association of island states. Uh, in the United Nations to mobilize a.

• 1:35:13Speaker 07

  A motion on the floor of the General Assembly to have a Uniting for Peace Resolution, to have the island states all join together and accuse the United States and China and India of aggressive activities ruining their national security by the fostering and promoting of the fossil fuels that are swamping their islands and ruining their country. And if you can get, I told them, if you can get two thirds of all the members of the General Assembly, 193 countries at that time, you know, to support such a resolution, you can get an investigation done. And if you can get three fourths of them to vote for a resolution ordering those countries

• 1:35:57Speaker 07

  to start cutting back on all of the use of petroleum, you can enforce it and the Security Council can't veto it. Okay? So I explained that all to them. And then Mr. Ayet drives me up to his big mansion on the top of the mountain overlooking Manila. And we're sitting there, you know, sipping lemonade at the afternoon. And he said, you know, would you like to meet the President of the Senate of the Philippines? And I said, yeah, that would be really helpful if we could get right to them, you know? And he said, well, let me get a hold of him. He gets up and leaves, goes in, makes a call, and he comes back, just go, let's go down and see him. So we go getting his big Cadillac, we drive down off the hill.

• 1:36:40Speaker 07

  He walks into the office of the President of the Senate, says hi to the Secretary, and we just walk in. We sit down. He introduces me to Senator Pimentel, who is the President of the Philippine Senate. And I'm briefing him on this, how to go about, you know, spearheading, organizing the Association of Island States to bring on a motion under the Uniting for Peace Resolution. And he's listening to me, but he doesn't seem particularly enthralled about it all. And so then he casually gets up and goes over and he closes the door and comes and sits back down. He said, well, I should tell you, he said, as the President of the Senate, you know, I chair a thing called the Blue Ribbon Commission.

• 1:37:23Speaker 07

  And the Blue Ribbon Commission is charged with finding these 176 troves of treasure that have been buried in the Philippines by General Yakushima at the end of World War II. And each of them has like a hundred billion dollars of gold in silver, in the platinum bars and big 50 gallon drums of diamonds and rubies and precious jewels that have all been pilfered by a special unit of the Japanese army that was deployed all during the 1930s before World War II started as a treasure, a war chest for the war.

• 1:38:02Jesse Michels?

  Because they were worried about being invaded or taken?

• 1:38:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, because they knew that once the Germans had surrendered in May of 1945, it was just a matter of time that the US was going to invade the island, you know, and take them down. And so they were going to move all of the treasure out of there, out of Japan, and they were going to bury it. And they were going to sign General Yakushima himself to oversee all that. And they were going to send the cousin, I think, of Hirohito, you know, to a prince, a Japanese prince of the royal family, to accompany them. So he would know where all 176 of these treasure troves were. And so they sent them into the

• 1:38:47Speaker 07

  islands. And they started moving the gold out in the last months of the war, and they buried it. And they buried them in these like, you know, like, you know, 500, 600 feet deep, you know, big wells like that they drilled. And then they were using prisoners of war to do the digging and then burying the team that dug that particular hole, burying them with the gold, so that no one would know, be around to tell.

• 1:39:15Jesse Michels?

  So where did this gold end up?

• 1:39:18Speaker 07

  It ended up in the Philippines. There's 176 troves of these. Is it still there? Still there. So there is 1.5 trillion or 1.2 trillion dollars worth of gold in the Philippines now? Oh, 1.2 trillion was just about, just 12 of the troves. There's 176 of them. And they're still there? Yes, they're still there. So who's guarding over them? They, they don't, they can't find them. That's what the problem is. They're crazy people running around the Philippines for decades trying to find these places. No way. They don't know where they are. But you, but we have documentation that there are a lot of these. Oh yeah. That Marcos got two of them. Yeah.

• 1:39:58Speaker 07

  Uh, by, by capturing one of the guys who was, uh, uh, who, who, who found one of them. And they drilled the eyes out of his son right in front of him with a hot poker. Jesus. Marcos did, Colonel Vare, you know, did it. Who was, who's Marcos? Marcos was the president of the, of the Philippines. Whoa. That, uh, that was. Who drilled, who drilled? The General Vare was his kind of chief torturer and he tortured this guy's son right in front of him to get the guy to tell him where two of these little.

• 1:40:29Speaker 00

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• 1:40:58Speaker 07

  Troves were, you know, and they got two of them. Marcos got two of them, each of $100 billion. What? But, but. So what does this have to do with UFO financing? That, that, no, the, it doesn't as such. What, what we know is that, that at the end of World War II, after they had done this, they buried them all. And there were maps. Uh huh. Of, of them. What happened is that Lansdale, Ed Lansdale, who was in the OSS, when they disbanded the OSS after the Germans surrendered in May of forty-five, that Truman disbanded the OSS and reassigned them all around.

• 1:41:38Speaker 07

  And Ed Lansdale, who was an OSS guy, gets made to G2 in Manila, right? And he knows about the fact that this treasure has been buried around there. And so what he does is when General Yakushima turns himself in, you know, at the end of the war, after dropping the bombs, you know, in August, the sixth and eighth of forty-five, you know, they all surrender. So there's not going to be any kind of invasion to the... And what Japan was hoping that they could get a conditional surrender and that they would be able to keep custody of the Philippines, so that they'd be able to then later go in and dig these things up

• 1:42:18Speaker 07

  and have, you know, reconstitute the wealth of the Japanese empire, right? That was the plan. But the US bombs them instead and says, you know, it's an unconditional surrender. You don't get the Philippines. We keep the Philippines, right? And so what happens is Ed Lansdale, Ed Lansdale knows that these are here and so these treasure troves are there. So what he does is he kidnaps the driver for General Yakushima, who would know where some of them were, right? And so he has him tortured.

• 1:42:57Speaker 07

  This guy named Santo Mario, Santo Mario, yeah, it's his name. This corporal that actually conducted the torturing of this driver and they find out where twelve of the troves are. So they punch the first one and find the hundred billion dollars. I've seen photographs of the... I mean, it looks, it's like a football stadium down underneath the ground, you know, that goes down like five, six hundred feet. Huge caverns down there and stacks of gold bullion, you know, you know, armpit high as far as you can see, you know, and big barrels of jewels everywhere. And the bottom line is they punched twelve of these things.

• 1:43:42Speaker 07

  And so Lansdale...

• 1:43:45Speaker 07

  After punching the first one and verifying that that is for real, he gets in the plane, he flies from Manila to Singapore to see MacArthur. And he goes in to see MacArthur personally, and starts to tell him what they've got here. Right? And MacArthur brings in his G2, who's Charles Willoughby. And so MacArthur orders Willoughby to go with Ed Lansdale in MacArthur's private plane. And they fly him from Singapore back to Manila, back into the Philippines, and back into the United States, right? And they they go to see Truman, to tell Truman that they've got 1.2 trillion dollars

• 1:44:28Speaker 07

  in gold bullion and platinum and silver and jewels. And the the chief of staff won't let them see him unless he they tell him what they want to talk about. So they brief the chief of staff, who is Clark Clifford. So Clifford comes into the meeting with Truman, with Ed Lansdale, and with Willoughby, and starts to brief Truman about what they've got. Truman says, hold it a second, I've got to bring Stimson in. Brings in the Secretary of War, Stimson, brings him in. As soon as Stimson starts realizing what they've got, he sends for his three deputies.

• 1:45:11Speaker 07

  And he brings in Robert Lovett and Robert Anderson, both not only deputies, secretaries of war, but senior partners in Brown Brothers Harriman and John J. McCloy. And they bring them in, the three deputies. They find out what they've got here, and Truman decides that what he's going to do, he's not going to tell anybody. He's not going to tell the Congress, he's not going to tell anybody else about it. They're going to set up this secret trust. They call the Anderson Trust. They set it up down in Houston, Texas. And they they set up the Anderson Trust, and they have all this. And they they assign, we now know, we've got, he's still alive, the commander, the pilot that flew the flew the gold out. He's alive? Yes, he's alive.

• 1:45:56Speaker 07

  Have you spoken to him? No, I'm going to. Whoa. We're going to, we know right where he is now. And I'm going to, I'm going to talk to him, you know, to get this thing on the record. Whoa. But so that so they fly using US military transports. They fly these, this gold all out of there, you know, these 12 troves of it. And they bring it to the International Credit Bank in Geneva, Switzerland. And then they deposit it there and then they issue gold certificates on it, which are like bearer bonds. You know, and they, they make, they distribute them to right wing anti-communist candidates for mayors and stuff after World War II, you know, all throughout Europe.

• 1:46:36Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:46:37Speaker 07

  And there's, so there's this whole covert program of-

• 1:46:39Jesse Michels?

  So this has nothing to do with the UFOs?

• 1:46:41Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:46:42Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 1:46:42Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, but what it is, is it's, it's a mechanism for secretly funding covert operations.

• 1:46:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:49Speaker 07

  That are going on after World War II, uh, when the CIA is set up and they're all funding this stuff. And that's Dulles knows about this money that's there.

• 1:46:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:59Speaker 07

  So that they're, they're using this for covert operations.

• 1:47:02Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:47:02Speaker 07

  You know?

• 1:47:03Jesse Michels?

  And, yeah, it's wild. That's wild.

• 1:47:07Speaker 07

  It's, it's totally separate from the UFO stuff.

• 1:47:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Chris Ramsey, who just did a great interview with you.

• 1:47:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Jesse Michels?

  Told me, maybe he thought it had something to do with UFOs, so.

• 1:47:19Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:47:19Jesse Michels?

  I'll use this as a, uh, opportunity to say, Chris, why'd you lead me astray? And, but go watch your interview with Chris, cause I thought that was great. I don't know if you've seen it, but it was fantastic. It was really great.

• 1:47:30Speaker 07

  Yeah. I don't, I don't see, I don't see most of these things. I just, you know, when I-

• 1:47:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Speaker 07

  With somebody that I trust anyway, that I can just tell you.

• 1:47:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Speaker 07

  And so it's done. They're-

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:40Speaker 07

  I know that you guys will tell other people.

• 1:47:42Jesse Michels?

  Check it out, Area 52. Um, yeah, in that interview, you actually talk about, uh, an interview with a live alien being.

• 1:47:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:47:50Jesse Michels?

  Uh, at S4 in Area 51.

• 1:47:53Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:47:53Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, yeah, you care to go into any detail around that?

• 1:47:57Speaker 07

  Well, yeah, uh, I got at Jesuit Headquarters, uh, let me see, it must be about, uh, let's see when that would be. Uh, it was 94, that I'd already done the, uh, the John Mack stuff. Uh, so it was, it was like 2000, uh, 2001, 2002, something like that. That, uh, I, I get a call, uh, from a guy, uh, in northern Minnesota. And he's, uh, on his deathbed, well, he's actually in hospice, right? Uh, and he wants me to come and see him. There's something, and he says that he worked directly with Project Blue Book. And so I said, oh, uh, uh, okay.

• 1:48:42Speaker 07

  So I fly there and fly into Minneapolis and rent a little car and drive up into this little teeny town up in northern Minnesota. Uh, and there he is. He's at this little hospice place with, he's got one of these little rollers with all the little bottles on it and the little stuff in his nose. And he starts telling me how, uh, he was a, uh, a clerk typist.

• 1:49:03Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:49:03Speaker 07

  Uh, army, US army clerk typist, assigned to this special unit of project blue book that was focusing just on the 700 or so, uh, uh, cases of, of, uh, instance, incidents, which they couldn't explain away.

• 1:49:19Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:20Speaker 07

  They were just too credible. The, the sources were too credible. They had too many people had seen it.

• 1:49:24Jesse Michels?

  What was his name?

• 1:49:25Speaker 07

  That, uh, his, his name was, uh, Oscar, uh, Wolf.

• 1:49:29Jesse Michels?

  Oscar, Oscar Wolf or Oscar Lane? Oscar Wolf?

• 1:49:31Speaker 07

  Yes, Oscar Wolf.

• 1:49:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:49:33Speaker 07

  That's who he was. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, he, he starts telling me about it all, uh, and goes into detail about it. Uh, now it's one of these bizarre things because I, my, my, my office people said, you've got to bring a camera. You gotta bring a camera to get this guy if he's going to give you a.

• 1:49:54Jesse Michels?

  Did you record him?

• 1:49:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, I, I, I brought the little thing. I set it all up on the little table and, and so I had the whole, the whole thing recorded.

• 1:50:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:03Speaker 07

  Uh, and it got corrupted somehow.

• 1:50:06Jesse Michels?

  But I think Jeremy Corbell might've recorded an interview with this guy separately?

• 1:50:11Speaker 07

  Later, uh, he did. And he also, he also talked with Richard Dolan.

• 1:50:15Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So we have him on record.

• 1:50:17Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:50:18Jesse Michels?

  Oscar Wolf.

• 1:50:19Speaker 07

  And, well, uh, they, but the thing is they didn't press into them as far as I know about this incident.

• 1:50:24Jesse Michels?

  Oh, really?

• 1:50:25Speaker 07

  And he, and he told me about the fact that he, cause I kept.

• 1:50:28Jesse Michels?

  They missed the, they buried the lead.

• 1:50:31Speaker 07

  Well, yeah, cause I was interrogating the shit out of him, you know? And I was just pressing down on him because I figured he was.

• 1:50:36Jesse Michels?

  Poor guy. He's on, he's on a dead.

• 1:50:38Speaker 07

  So, so, so, you know, don't, don't mess with me. So.

• 1:50:44Speaker 07

  Yes, shape up. You know, as.

• 1:50:45Jesse Michels?

  He's, he's dying. You can't do that.

• 1:50:47Speaker 07

  I could've said, you know, if you want any absolution, you know, but I didn't do that part. So, so, so.

• 1:50:52Jesse Michels?

  Man, the Jesuits are thugs. I didn't realize that.

• 1:50:55Speaker 07

  That's being too tough, you know? And it's a, so, so the, the bottom line, he tells me that, that, uh. The reason that he has developed this kind of special relationship with the commander of this unit that is assigned specifically to investigate the 700 other cases, right? Is because he and the commander were both part of this really fundamentalist Christian sect called the Worldwide Church of God. I mean, and apparently really hardcore fundamentalist crowd. And so that he stayed there for years. And when they were working on this, people would come and go in the staff and do field investigations and all that, but he kept staying there and keeping records.

• 1:51:40Speaker 07

  And then his commander comes in and said that he is going to be going to Area 51 and wanted Oscar to come with him. And so he did, he went with him, but it turns out it was not just Area 51, it was S4. So they actually went all the way to S4 and went down the big elevators and went in and he said he saw like three or four.

• 1:52:03Jesse Michels?

  By the way, S4 isn't supposed to officially exist. So it's important, the only versions where it exists, you have Bob Lazar, you have a guy named Dan Barish, and you have this story.

• 1:52:13Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 1:52:14Jesse Michels?

  And I think we're going to get some more corroboration soon that S4 does in fact exist. And then all of a sudden you start asking questions about these specific stories and it starts to blow your mind. Okay, so you're going down.

• 1:52:24Speaker 07

  So he goes down and he says, and he sees like there's three or four UFOs that are just, they've got little like little garages, like these little chambers.

• 1:52:36Jesse Michels?

  So it's the same story as Bob Lazar.

• 1:52:37Speaker 07

  And they're just hovering in there. They're just, he said, they were just, they were just hovering all by themselves inside these little garages, like that were underground. He said he saw them and then they went in and his commander was going to be quote interviewing a live ET guy, right? So he goes with him and they come into this other area where there were military guys there. He said, but there was this room, like a standalone room with these big two-way mirrors that you could see through from the outside. And he said he saw the ET guy, but he was like, you know, five and a half feet tall.

• 1:53:17Speaker 07

  No, it wasn't a little tiny shirt guy. It was a kind of a kind of life size guy. Big, big head, big eyes, and he was in this kind of jumpsuit that they'd provided for him. Uh, and he was, he was very cooperative. He wasn't being interrogated.

• 1:53:32Jesse Michels?

  Was he speaking English or telepathic?

• 1:53:33Speaker 07

  No, no, he was, it was all telepathic. It was all telepathic.

• 1:53:37Jesse Michels?

  So you just, you just saw them sitting across from each other?

• 1:53:39Speaker 07

  He could see, he could see his commander walk in, but he wouldn't go. Cause he said, he said, I thought it was demonic. That's what he said. He said, I thought it was demonic and I didn't want to go near him. Uh, and so he stayed outside and, but he could see his, his commander having this kind of telepathic communication going on with him.

• 1:53:57Jesse Michels?

  And his commander was a fundamentalist Christian?

• 1:54:00Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yes.

• 1:54:01Jesse Michels?

  And so how, what was the communication like?

• 1:54:04Speaker 07

  That, that he didn't say. He just said that it was telepathic. He could tell that they were having this telepathic. Well, he, he probably afterwards got it confirmed by his, his commander that it was all telepathic. They weren't talking. He could just see that they were having this kind of communication.

• 1:54:19Jesse Michels?

  Did he seem honest to you?

• 1:54:21Speaker 07

  Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

• 1:54:22Jesse Michels?

  So you think that happened?

• 1:54:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, I do think that happened. I think that happened, you know, and uh.

• 1:54:27Jesse Michels?

  So you think we have alien beings at S4?

• 1:54:30Speaker 07

  Well, no, no, all I, all I know is I think that there was one there at that time.

• 1:54:34Jesse Michels?

  Okay, at that time.

• 1:54:36Speaker 07

  And that he saw him, uh, and that he, he stayed outside and the, the military guys that were there showed him these, these cards. They had, he said they had these index cards that, uh, and it, it didn't say whether they were typed up or printed, but they had the questions and answers that were there, things they'd ask him, right? And so they had a little record of interviews that had been conducted with him. And then one of them, he said that, uh, they asked him, you know, so where are you guys from? What are you, what are you doing here? And he said that, you know, he was part of a group, uh, of people, beings from different star systems.

• 1:55:18Speaker 07

  In our galaxy, he said, and that their job was to go around monitoring where life had started in different planets inside the galaxy, and that that was what they did. And that's what they were doing here. And he said, they asked him, well, who's who tasked you to do that? You know, who's in charge of that? And he said, well, it's what you people would refer to as God, but it's very different than you think.

• 1:55:48Jesse Michels?

  And how is it different?

• 1:55:50Speaker 07

  He didn't say. He didn't say. And he said, but I didn't believe him, he said, because I thought he was demonic. And so I never told anybody. I never told anybody about this.

• 1:55:59Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever heard the term Collins Elite?

• 1:56:01Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:56:02Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that this kind of fundamentalist Christian commander was involved in the Collins Elite?

• 1:56:08Speaker 07

  No, it didn't didn't seem to be. This was kind of an individual thing with him and this guy.

• 1:56:14Jesse Michels?

  Because they also thought that the the alien stuff was kind of demonic.

• 1:56:17Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. No, no, that there's, there's a whole, a whole stream of that in the fundamentalist world. You know, I've got, you know, that Sarah's sister-in-law is a fundamentalist, you know, and she will, she thinks the whole thing is demonic. It's a meme.

• 1:56:37Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever interviewed? I mean, I'm sure part of it is and part of it might be angelic. And, you know, it's like, probably.

• 1:56:44Speaker 07

  I think that it's because people don't understand that whole part. People don't understand angelic.

• 1:56:49Jesse Michels?

  It's probably good and bad is probably way too simplistic of a frame for whatever they're operating on. And I'm sure there are good ones that incidentally do violence to you because of their kind of, you know, field or whatever. Once, you know, it's like Saint Francis, Saint Francis of Assisi has a vision of this, you know, kind of, you know, winged angel being, it was a flaming torch in the original translation, but as a seraphim. And it does violence to him, but it's like it's that becomes part of his conversion towards God and it ends up sort of killing him. But I think the sort of good, bad, you know, dichotomy is probably a earthly one.

• 1:57:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, there's, there's, I mean, an awful lot of anthropomorphic projection, you know, onto these folks because they, because they're so much like us. I mean, you know, that, that's a real challenge.

• 1:57:36Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever met an alien?

• 1:57:38Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:57:38Jesse Michels?

  Would you want to?

• 1:57:39Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 1:57:40Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:57:40Speaker 07

  Sure. Yeah, I'd like to sit down and, and chat with them.

• 1:57:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Speaker 07

  And, and, and actually figure out, you know, how to kind of represent us.

• 1:57:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:52Speaker 07

  You know, in, in a full way about how good and bad stuff that we do, all of us, you know, but try to figure out what the criteria are for trying to establish a relationship of trust with them.

• 1:58:05Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:05Speaker 07

  And how we could trust them. What can they do to kind of assuage the concerns that people have about them?

• 1:58:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:12Speaker 07

  In their kind of secretive ways, you know?

• 1:58:14Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever seen, so you've seen picture of a UFO, which was in the Blue Book files in a skiff in DC and you even traced?

• 1:58:24Speaker 07

  It wasn't a skiff though.

• 1:58:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it wasn't a skiff. Okay.

• 1:58:26Speaker 07

  It was just, it was just this room that they had downstairs in the Madison.

• 1:58:30Jesse Michels?

  And you traced the symbols that were along the, the edge of the craft?

• 1:58:34Speaker 07

  I did that.

• 1:58:35Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever seen anomalous material?

• 1:58:38Speaker 07

  No. I've seen photographs of the, of this thing that Hal had. I've seen photographs.

• 1:58:43Jesse Michels?

  What, what thing that Hal had?

• 1:58:44Speaker 07

  That, that piece of metal that's got like 17 different layers of, of different.

• 1:58:50Jesse Michels?

  Is that magnesium bismuth?

• 1:58:51Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:58:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, I've just seen the photographs.

• 1:58:54Jesse Michels?

  Layers thinner than a micron or whatever.

• 1:58:56Speaker 07

  Yes, right. That's the one. I've seen photographs.

• 1:58:59Jesse Michels?

  What do you think of, you know, Hal put off this sort of godfather architect of the space. He's just, you know, seems to have his hand in everything. What, what do you think of Hal and his role and kind of UFOlogy?

• 1:59:12Speaker 07

  I think, I think Hal is, is more knowledgeable in depth about this whole thing than most any of the people that you would meet.

• 1:59:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:25Speaker 07

  You know, can, and know. Uh, you know, in the, that, uh.

• 1:59:30Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he says everything he knows?

• 1:59:32Speaker 07

  No. Oh, no, no. He doesn't even pretend to.

• 1:59:34Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:59:35Speaker 07

  No, he doesn't even pretend to say everything he knows.

• 1:59:37Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he's worked on a craft or seen a craft?

• 1:59:39Speaker 07

  Oh, I'm sure he has.

• 1:59:41Jesse Michels?

  You're sure he has?

• 1:59:41Speaker 07

  No, I'm, I'm completely sure he has.

• 1:59:43Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:59:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:59:44Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he knows how they fly?

• 1:59:47Speaker 07

  No, he has a better idea of how they fly than most anybody. You know, there may be some technicians that, that know more about some details.

• 1:59:56Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he understands a lot about sort of, um, I don't know, uh, the me- mental networks and that sort of thing? Do you think he's sort of clued into that?

• 2:00:06Speaker 07

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, the, the, that's his major focus.

• 2:00:10Jesse Michels?

  From Stargate?

• 2:00:11Speaker 07

  Is, is, yeah.

• 2:00:12Jesse Michels?

  What's the connection between remote viewing and, you know, so you had these guys in the remote viewing program like Stargate, you know, it was formed by the CIA and later ran out of the DIA, 1972. He, um, you know, the, the, some of these guys like Ingo Swan would like remote view alien bases on the moon and things like that, but do you think?

• 2:00:33Speaker 07

  I talked to Ingo about it.

• 2:00:35Jesse Michels?

  Did you?

• 2:00:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, I spent like a whole day with Ingo.

• 2:00:37Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:00:38Speaker 07

  Apartment in New York.

• 2:00:39Jesse Michels?

  What, what did Ingo say about the alien bases?

• 2:00:42Speaker 07

  It was interesting that, that, that my, my access to him came through the Church of Scientology thing. You know, that that's a big deal.

• 2:00:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:51Speaker 07

  That Church of Scientology, that hell put off at Church Scientology and, and, uh, Targ, Russell Targ was Church Scientology. All kinds of the guys.

• 2:00:59Jesse Michels?

  And to catch people up, you kind of won L. Ron Hubbard's favor by, uh, you know, there was a case against them around, uh, you know, special exemption, you know, as a, as a religious organization. And, uh, there were, you know, I think they were, they were being bugged for a little bit and they were sort of trying to bug the federal government. They were trying to track the federal government.

• 2:01:20Speaker 07

  They had, they had, they had the door of their headquarters chainsawed off.

• 2:01:23Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:01:24Speaker 07

  By the, by the IRS.

• 2:01:25Jesse Michels?

  And then you.

• 2:01:26Speaker 07

  And FBI.

• 2:01:26Jesse Michels?

  You were sort of helping them out and then you made it, you were about to like sign on formally as their counsel and then you asked them for their.

• 2:01:35Speaker 07

  No, no, that's, wouldn't be the way to look. That I was asked to be their counsel.

• 2:01:39Jesse Michels?

  You were asked to be their counsel.

• 2:01:40Speaker 07

  And I said, look, as a condition precedent to even begin to talk with Ron Hubbard, cause he wanted to meet with me and try to persuade me to become the lawyer for him and his wife specifically. Not necessarily for the church, but for him and his wife. And that the head guardian from the from North America came to my office at the Jesuit headquarters and said that that Mr. Hubbard would like to talk with you about becoming the lawyer for him and his wife Susan. And I said, well, I said, look, as a condition precedent to even being willing to meet with him, to talk with him, I'd have to be given permission to have access to whatever records or information there is

• 2:02:21Speaker 07

  anywhere in the world about the church. And I said, that's, I assume that's a total nonstarter, right?

• 2:02:27Jesse Michels?

  And they give you their records?

• 2:02:28Speaker 07

  Within a week, they came back and said, it's a deal.

• 2:02:31Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:02:31Speaker 07

  What do you want to see?

• 2:02:33Jesse Michels?

  So you could query anybody's E meter results?

• 2:02:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, anything. I could get anything I wanted. And so they flew me down to Florida and the big blue cube they've got down there, this big, huge blue building. And so I go in and there's the head of the guardians office, US guardians office, and the international head of the guardians, you know, out of the UK. And they say, so what do you want to see? And I said, well, first, what I want to see is the file you've got on me. And the American guy said, no, why, no, we've got, I don't, no. And I said, excuse me. I said, what, you think I fell off some melon wagon somewhere? I said, you know, you're gonna have me be Elrond Hubbard's attorney, you don't have any file on me at all? And

• 2:03:19Speaker 07

  the international guy says, go get him the file. So they bring me the file. I'm going

• 2:03:25Jesse Michels?

  How deep was it? How much stuff did they have?

• 2:03:26Speaker 07

  Well, they had, they had, you know, pictures of me, what, you know, I was a Jesuit candidate. I was at the headquarters. You know, they would follow me around, they showed me in different restaurants, you know, and meeting with people, you know, Mark Lane and some of the other guys.

• 2:03:38Jesse Michels?

  Mark Lane, he was like Kennedy assassination investigator?

• 2:03:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, Rush to Judgment, he was the author of that. You know, so, you know, they had all these kind of things. And so I said, okay, good. I just wanted to make sure that it was, that it was accurate, you know. And then so the international guy says, okay, so what else do you want to see? I said, I want to see the three most sensitive files in the entire world, according to you, as the head of the guardians office. You know, and he just went, oh, fuck, he said, I said, so, so either you get them or not. You know, so he gets up and is gone and revelances around, comes back, and he ends up laying one of the files in front of me. And I started looking at it and it was all reports by Ingo Swan.

• 2:04:21Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:04:22Speaker 07

  Ingo Swan was filing reports with the head guardian office in, in the UK about the entire internal operations of the Office of Naval Intelligence, uh, remote viewing program.

• 2:04:32Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:04:33Speaker 07

  They were doing, he was just giving them all the information.

• 2:04:35Jesse Michels?

  So he was a spy or something?

• 2:04:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, he was a spy, a spy for the Church of Scientology.

• 2:04:42Jesse Michels?

  For the Church of Scientology?

• 2:04:43Speaker 07

  Over and against the Office of Naval Intelligence.

• 2:04:45Jesse Michels?

  Why would he do that?

• 2:04:46Speaker 07

  Cause he was a high level clear, that was his loyalty group.

• 2:04:50Jesse Michels?

  So that he was, he was loyal to them prior to?

• 2:04:53Speaker 07

  That's right, that's right, over and above, over and above.

• 2:04:56Jesse Michels?

  Cause I always, I always thought Putoff was like looking into that stuff, cause he was like an NSA guy before he was a Scientology guy. So I thought Putoff was just like tasked to like looking into this, you know, very, you know, uh, para-governmental intelligence organization that is Scientology that's seen as a threat. And so, you know, put, get Putoff in there.

• 2:05:16Speaker 07

  No, this was the stuff, I mean, the, the Church of Scientology, you're not aware of it, that their highest principal in the Church of Scientology is all to do with UFOs.

• 2:05:28Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:05:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, they, they believe that there is a major confrontation going on between the, uh, the human-like people from the Pleiades over and against the reptilians from Zeta Reticuli. And that there's a major confrontation going on over which of them is going to actually assert, uh, major relations with our planet.

• 2:05:50Jesse Michels?

  Do you agree with that worldview?

• 2:05:51Speaker 07

  No, I, I, I don't, I.

• 2:05:53Jesse Michels?

  But, but Swan was like fully in, in with the Scientologists.

• 2:05:57Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, he too.

• 2:05:58Jesse Michels?

  Giving them information on the Office of Naval Intelligence.

• 2:06:00Speaker 07

  All of it.

• 2:06:00Jesse Michels?

  And so you're also saying that there's a remote viewing program that was deeper than Stargate? Cause that was an Office of Naval Intelligence, that was.

• 2:06:06Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 2:06:06Jesse Michels?

  DIA after CIA.

• 2:06:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, no, this, this was probably, and Pat Price. I'll give you some idea how deep this goes. Pat Price, you know, they had the file, Ingo Swann had the file, that Pat Price had gotten so good at remote viewing, that they assigned him a task of, they gave him the exact longitude and latitude down to the minute and second of a location. And he was assigned an artist, so that he didn't have to do these hen scratches trying to show it. But he was, and he was saying, you know, I, so what's there? So there's this major building here. Uh huh. And there's big, big fence up with razor wire on the top of it and everything. And his facilitator Uh huh. Uh, was, was, uh, Russell Targ. Uh huh. And so Russell was saying, okay, now can, can you get inside the fence?

• 2:06:53Speaker 07

  Can you see anything inside the fence? And he goes, yeah, okay, uh, all right, yeah, I can, I can see inside the fence. There's just this no man's land there. Can you get to the front door of this place? And he said, all right, he said, okay. All right, I got it, yeah, okay, I'm in front of the front door. He said, can you go inside the building? And he said, uh, let me see here, uh, okay, yeah, yeah, I can see, I can see inside the building here. He said, so what do you see? He says, this big long hallway, uh, there's some doors on both sides. And Russell said, now go, go down to the third door on the left. Uh, and he said, okay. And he said, can you go into the room? Yeah, I can go into the room. So what do you see? Well, there's a big desk there and chairs and stuff. There's a big file cabinet over in the right corner over here.

• 2:07:37Speaker 07

  Go over to the file cabinet. He goes over to the file cabinet. There's a second drawer, first file. Read it to him. And he did. What was it? Well, that's not the point. The point is that he did it. Yeah. And he can do it, you know? And it turns out it's an American facility. It's a top CIA security facility. Yeah, but that's, that's insane then. So, so anybody with remote viewing skills can get the nuclear codes? Not, not anybody, but Pat Price could. The best. So that's Pat Price, right? Mm hmm. And in the same file, it points out that Pat Price had actually evolved to the point where they could take a full photograph of a boomer class Russian submarine, Mm hmm. nuclear submarine and show it to him. Mm hmm.

• 2:08:22Speaker 07

  And say, where is it? Right now. And he would give them right down to the exact longitude and latitude, down to the minute and second of exactly where that is. And he visualized the whole thing and told them exactly where it was. But there was a huge UFO, right over the top of the water where that thing was. And it was tracking it and monitoring it. And he had it in the file. You know, I'm going, whoa. I said, this is, uh, this is pretty, pretty wild. Uh, and, uh, then I, I said, okay, so, uh, what else have you got? You know, he says, well, here. And he said, I said, show me the, show me the second file. And he showed me the second file.

• 2:09:07Speaker 07

  And it was, again, from Ingo Swan. It was a deep inside report from Ingo Swan. That they had taken Pat Price, uh, in the program up to southern Canada, south central Canada, just north of the state of Michigan. Uh, and, uh, he was in, he brought him to this little facility, it was like this little domed little building, uh, and it had these big, huge, uh, dishes on top, these communication dishes on top. And they brought him in and they set him down, uh, and they put this helmet on him, uh, and they had him think, uh, a particular message. And they turned all the, the antenna down to the northern peninsula of Michigan, that

• 2:09:51Speaker 07

  little section that's in there, and had him be telepathically projecting, you know, when it comes time for you to file your, your national, uh, your US income tax forms next year, file them in this little post office box down this little town down in West Virginia. And eighty-five percent of the people did it next year.

• 2:10:13Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:10:15Speaker 07

  Absolutely way.

• 2:10:17Jesse Michels?

  That's insane.

• 2:10:18Speaker 07

  You keep saying that.

• 2:10:20Jesse Michels?

  So you're saying, you're saying that, you're saying Scientology had some sort of mind, mass mind control technique?

• 2:10:27Speaker 07

  It wasn't the Church of Scientology.

• 2:10:28Jesse Michels?

  What was it? This was the program. That was the program, the Office of Naval Intelligence. This was the program. But that's, that's like, the implications of that are crazy. No, they're profound. Yeah.

• 2:10:38Speaker 07

  And so then I, from then.

• 2:10:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So you met Ingo Swan.

• 2:10:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, I didn't say no to them, then, but as soon as I saw the file on the fair game, I knew I wasn't gonna do it. But I had the opportunity to go see Ingo.

• 2:10:50Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:10:50Speaker 07

  So I contacted Ingo and said, you know, I'm being asked to be the lawyer for Hubbard. And, you know, I wanna chat with you. So I went to see him at his apartment in New York. And we go all the way upstairs, up onto the roof of his apartment that he's got there. And then I started talking to him. And, you know, I didn't wanna freak him out over the fact that he was clearly violating his security clearance.

• 2:11:16Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:11:17Speaker 07

  You know, by providing these reports to the Church of Scientology.

• 2:11:21Jesse Michels?

  So he was using his remote viewing from Stargate in the reports that he was giving to the Church of Scientology?

• 2:11:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, he was filing not only about his work, but Pat Price's work. You know, the other stuff, all the things that he was doing, he was reporting to the guardians.

• 2:11:38Jesse Michels?

  So he's basically like, he's a back-channel spy to the Church of Scientology.

• 2:11:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:11:43Jesse Michels?

  On behalf of them, vis a vis the federal government of the US.

• 2:11:47Speaker 07

  It was clearly his, his, his major loyalty.

• 2:11:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:11:51Speaker 07

  Allegiance was to them.

• 2:11:52Jesse Michels?

  Did you ask him about, cause he wrote a book called Penetration about seeing bases, alien bases on the moon?

• 2:11:58Speaker 07

  I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen that.

• 2:11:59Jesse Michels?

  You hadn't seen that? Did you, did you get into the alien thing at all with him?

• 2:12:03Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. Because, because, because he, he, in one of his reports, had, had a report in there about, it was, it was,

• 2:12:18Speaker 07

  how Putoff, no, it wasn't how, it was Targ, Russell Targ, had been facilitating a remote viewing by Pat Price.

• 2:12:28Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:12:28Speaker 07

  Uh, when they, when they stepped it up from him being able to remote view things in real time, to be able to be shown a photograph of a Russian Boomer submarine.

• 2:12:41Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:12:42Speaker 07

  And then he could locate it. He could figure out exactly where it was down to the minute and second of longitude and latitude. I mean, which was the big deal. You know, I mean, that's the big deal.

• 2:12:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:54Speaker 07

  And, uh, and, uh, and when they found it, uh, when they found it and verified that it was there through the remote viewing, others to find, there was a UFO hovering right over the top of where the Russian Boomer submarine was. Going into the water and it was monitoring it. Uh, and, uh, and I just, when I saw it, I just went, whoa.

• 2:13:17Jesse Michels?

  Did you see a photo?

• 2:13:18Speaker 07

  No.

• 2:13:19Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:13:19Speaker 07

  No, they just told me about it. It was a written report. That they, that it was there and it was just my, it was following right along where the Russian Boomer submarine was going. You know, and that was the only piece that was in there, except when I, when I started interrogating people. You know, cause I, I wanted to get as much advantage as I could of the opportunity that I had here to get information. So I got to meet the guy who was legal counsel for the, uh, church to ask him to explain to me. You know, what the net, net of all this was, you know, what were they up to here? And what it is, is that they, they considered themselves entitled to being considered a sovereign entity. Because the Catholic Church was.

• 2:14:01Speaker 07

  So the Catholic Church has this kind of status of being a sovereign entity in a nation, basically, because they have Vatican state. Right? So they, they insisted that as a matter of First Amendment, uh, equal protection, that they were entitled to take under themselves the same status. And so that's what caused them to be engaged in this fair game program. They believed that they had a right to engage in like wet operations. You know, like the United States does and Russia does and all of that. Which they asserted, you know, the Vatican does, they said.

• 2:14:33Jesse Michels?

  Do you think, do you think that the Vatican and that? Specifically, maybe the Knights of Malta had anything to do with the UFO? Kind of reverse engineering or transport or oversight?

• 2:14:43Speaker 07

  I think that an element of the Knights of Malta have something to do with everything.

• 2:14:48Jesse Michels?

  And why do you think that?

• 2:14:50Speaker 07

  Because of the people that were in this Monte Carlo group. There's a thing called the Monte Carlo group that is at the top, top of the entire Knights of Malta structure. And I discovered that there were non Catholics in it, which didn't make any sense to me at all. Because Knights of Malta is a Catholic men's club like thing. But there's this high executive council that it turned out that Henry Kissinger was on it. And George Bush Senior, who's Episcopal.

• 2:15:28Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Well, if I were, but if I were to play devil's advocate, I could have said Council of Foreign Relations, Bilderberg, you know, like I could name five other organizations that those two guys were a part of. Any other reasons to believe they had something to do with the UFO?

• 2:15:42Speaker 07

  No, just not specifically, but I'm saying is that anybody who is at that level, dealing with international things would have to be involved in this. There's no way that you're not going to be involved in this. Because I mean, you could be involved in all the other stuff and it wouldn't make any difference ultimately. You know, I mean, this whole thing could, to use the phrase, trump, you know, everything.

• 2:16:07Jesse Michels?

  What is the, is there kind of a mandate or, you know, constitution for the Knights of Malta? I mean, the only references I really have are, you know, Humphrey Bogart, the Maltese Falcon. They were supposed to be the guardians of this Maltese Falcon. And I believe they're also the heirs to the Hospitalliers. You know, there was the kind of Templars back in the day, sort of, you know, pre 13th century when they were, they were disbanded, I guess 14th century. And then they were kind of the guardians of these pilgrims that would go to the Temple Mount in, you know, Jerusalem. And then the medic side of that was the Hospitalliers. And so that sort of, there's some lineage between that and, you know, Knights of Malta.

• 2:16:50Jesse Michels?

  But otherwise, I don't really understand, you know, what they do. I know they have sovereign status and they can kind of.

• 2:16:54Speaker 07

  They do. They're a military, they're a military order. And they're, they're a sovereign, they're a sovereign military order. And it's, it's, it's very clear that, you know, the guys like Reinhard Galen was in the Knights, Knights of Malta.

• 2:17:09Jesse Michels?

  He was a former Nazi?

• 2:17:10Speaker 07

  Yeah. Reinhard Galen is the guy that was the head of the anti-Soviet, anti-Eastern black intelligence for the Third Reich. Uh, and also became the director of intelligence for West Germany. At the end of World War II, you know, at the behest of our OSS. Got him put in there, you know, and Shackley worked directly with him. You know, yeah. And, and, and also, um, Otto Skorzeny.

• 2:17:36Jesse Michels?

  Oh, another former Nazi.

• 2:17:37Speaker 07

  Yeah. Otto Skorzeny, who ran the rat line, you know, of smuggling them all out of there. And they were Knights of Malta passports. That were used.

• 2:17:48Jesse Michels?

  Did you, I mean, you're a Jesuit. Did you ever use your Jesuit connections to figure out more about the Magenta crash? Which was supposedly recovered, you know, according to David Grush. It was recovered in Lombardy in 1933. And, uh, I believe the Cardinal of Milan was also a Knight of Malta at the time. And the UFO supposedly made itself to the Vatican where it was held for a while. And then I think Pope Pius VI, maybe? Then, you know, transferred it over to the US.

• 2:18:19Speaker 07

  It's the 11th.

• 2:18:20Jesse Michels?

  Pope Pius the 11th, okay. Transferred it over to the US. So do you know anything about that?

• 2:18:26Speaker 07

  No, no, I didn't actually. It's interesting that.

• 2:18:29Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe that's a real case or?

• 2:18:30Speaker 07

  It's, it's interesting. I didn't know about it.

• 2:18:32Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:18:33Speaker 07

  I didn't know about it until comparatively recently.

• 2:18:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:18:36Speaker 07

  So that one never came across the radar.

• 2:18:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:39Speaker 07

  So I had, I had been pretty well locked down on.

• 2:18:42Jesse Michels?

  You gotta hit up your Vatican contacts.

• 2:18:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Those that are still alive, anyway. You know, I mean, they're all dead. I couldn't believe it. I mean, versus everybody that was there in the staff when I was there of all. Passed away.

• 2:18:55Jesse Michels?

  Damn.

• 2:18:55Speaker 07

  Totally bizarre.

• 2:18:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56Speaker 07

  Uh, but, uh, but the, the bottom line is I didn't know about that one.

• 2:19:01Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:01Speaker 07

  At all.

• 2:19:01Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:02Speaker 07

  And no one has ever said anything to me about it.

• 2:19:04Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:04Speaker 07

  You know, and when I, when I talked to Johan Iks, who was the head of the Vatican Archives.

• 2:19:10Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:10Speaker 07

  You know, he's just always just smiled. I mean, and, and.

• 2:19:13Jesse Michels?

  Does he give you a smile, a smile of quiet knowing?

• 2:19:16Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:19:17Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:19:17Speaker 07

  No, he knows because, because I sent the letters to them from Jesuit headquarters.

• 2:19:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:19:22Speaker 07

  As for access for President Carter.

• 2:19:24Jesse Michels?

  So he doesn't give you a befuddled laughing smile or something?

• 2:19:28Speaker 07

  No, no, no, it'd be perfectly easy for them to say, like, there's nothing to this, you're crazy.

• 2:19:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:19:31Speaker 07

  No, but no, he knows, he knows that I know.

• 2:19:34Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:19:35Speaker 07

  That his stuff is there.

• 2:19:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:19:36Speaker 07

  And he just isn't gonna let me have it.

• 2:19:38Jesse Michels?

  So you, you were the, um, lawyer for John Mack.

• 2:19:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:19:42Jesse Michels?

  Who's the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department and childhood friend of Bud Hopkins. Towards the end of his career, he started to take very seriously these, uh, uh, experiencers. People would experience abductions or alien contact.

• 2:19:57Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:58Jesse Michels?

  And often it would come out in hypnotic regression or through holotropic breathwork, which was one of his favorite kind of modalities.

• 2:20:03Speaker 07

  That was, that was.

• 2:20:04Jesse Michels?

  And, um, you have his final manuscript.

• 2:20:07Speaker 07

  Mm hmm, I do.

• 2:20:08Jesse Michels?

  And he writes about, I heard at the end of his life, he started to get into reptilians and was like interested in, in reptilians specifically. I don't know. Is there anything interesting in that final manuscript that, um, sort of shows his overall worldview at the end of this, you know, decade plus long inquiry into the UFO alien question?

• 2:20:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, he, he, he really views the entire UFO ET issue.

• 2:20:36Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:36Speaker 07

  As a, as a, as a window opening onto the functioning of worldviews.

• 2:20:42Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:43Speaker 07

  You know, in, in, in our human family to really explain an awful, I had something to do with that. Cause then that's what I was talking to him about. He and I, but just before he got killed, we were planning on trying to set up a thing.

• 2:20:55Jesse Michels?

  When you say he got killed, was that, do you think it was intentionally or accidentally?

• 2:21:00Speaker 00

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• 2:21:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, no. Yeah, I was on that within hours after it happened. So sad. Dug it out and knew who the guy was, the guy's still in prison that ran him down. He was just drunk and, you know, yeah. And so, so the, that John and I were talking about the fact that, that this was a, actually the name of his manuscript is When World Views Collide.

• 2:21:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:00Speaker 07

  And, you know, all the Velikovsky, that, you know, from when worlds collide. So that's what he did. It's when worlds collide.

• 2:22:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:09Speaker 07

  And the

• 2:22:10Jesse Michels?

  What was the Velikovsky? What was the when worlds collide? What was that about?

• 2:22:13Speaker 07

  When worlds collide is an old classic piece that Velikovsky wrote. It's the theory that the asteroid belt is a, another planet that was here in our, in our solar system. And it collided with the moon or something. I just remember it and

• 2:22:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's right. It's like the Kuiper belt or something.

• 2:22:36Speaker 07

  Yeah. The whole, the whole asteroid belt is really that planet all blown up into, into shrapnel, basically all through the asteroid belt.

• 2:22:46Jesse Michels?

  And so Mac was saying when worldviews collide, like the kind of Western materialist reductionist worldview and

• 2:22:53Speaker 07

  And this world.

• 2:22:54Jesse Michels?

  Anamistic worldview or something, one that encapsulated

• 2:22:57Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 2:22:58Jesse Michels?

  Life beyond humans.

• 2:22:59Speaker 12

  If you want to shatter the Western mental structures, the, the Western mind, so to speak, which is now permeating the whole earth in its materialist dualistic philosophy, the way you do it is you take something That's supposed to be in the spirit world, because even in the West, we can make allowance for the spirit world, and we can study it through mythology, through religion, through imagination, through poetry. But the one unforgivable sin to the Western mind is when something that should be in the spirit world transgresses and shows up in the physical world. That traffic is the cardinal sin for the Western mind.

• 2:23:40Speaker 12

  So it has great power to shatter the belief structure of the Western mind when that occurs. And that's precisely what's occurring in this abduction phenomenon.

• 2:23:49Speaker 07

  And so he started, really starting to perceive things, because I was some assistance in that, because I had, you know, done the master's degree work and then started the PhD work at Harvard on that very issue, trying to understand things. When you get a really complex issue, what you want to do is figure out what the kind of operational pieces of it are, so you can get them spread out in front of you, just like a plane wreck. You know, you want to kind of reassemble the pieces that you can recover and take a look at it. And what this does is it tends to shake down into this octave of human worldviews, you know, that the, only one aspect of which is their political manifestation, you know,

• 2:24:33Speaker 07

  that runs from, from right to left, you know, from the authoritarian to the reactionary, to the conservative, to the moderate, to the liberal, to the progressive, to the utopianist. You know, that there's, there's, there are integrated worldviews, they're internally self-referentially consistent, you know, and that they're all predicated upon the answers that you provide to these four pillar questions about the origins of the universe, the kind of end product, the theological outcome of the universe as projected, you know, what the ontological relationship between consciousness and the material manifestation of reality

• 2:25:14Speaker 07

  is, the big one, you know, and the epistemological question is, you know, that what means do we have at our disposal as human beings, by means of which you can possibly answer questions like? That are we limited to our five senses or do we have other faculties? Do we have other kind of charisms that we have access to that have been hidden or suppressed? You know, those are, those are the fundamental questions. Those are the cosmic questions. And since we don't have the definitive answer to any of those yet.

• 2:25:46Speaker 07

  The way as long, as long as you have a internally and self referentially consistent answer to all four of those questions. You have a worldview. It's a systematic worldview. And if you can discern what the common principle is that makes all of them similar to each other. The answers are consistent with each other. You apply that principle to any question that you confront. In making your judgments. And then you have a philosophy. That's, that's what a philosophy is. Is a consistent application of a single principle that is generic to all four of these fundamental questions. If you can do that. And that that's what a philosophy is.

• 2:26:29Speaker 07

  And then you have a sub component of that, your political philosophy. And then you have a mode of spiritual expression. Which is generic to that, that's where you get these major world religions that are generic to a particular worldview. You know, and so I would, I was starting to explain all that to him that, that I discovered. You know, when I actually went back to talk to John Rawls, who's the head of the department of philosophy at Harvard. You know, when I was running into these conflicts that I was having with the different lawyers and the firms where I was. You know, they all seem to be functioning on some different way.

• 2:27:03Jesse Michels?

  So what did, what did Mac think, you know, when, what would happen when worldviews collided and when?

• 2:27:09Speaker 07

  He, he believes that it's absolutely clear that there's, that the initial response that we have as human beings, as homo sapiens to an encounter with an extraterrestrial being. Is that it, it kind of shatters. The, the kind of walls of the room, the mansion of our.

• 2:27:35Speaker 07

  World view, you know, that all of a sudden the things are so completely different than anything you'd ever assumed before, that your world can fall apart, as it were. And so people and people have this kind of cellular response. When you find yourself actually confronted with an extraterrestrial being, that your whole cellular system reacts, you know, in a kind of a fight or flight way, that your subconscious doesn't have any control over. It's just, you just freak out, you know, and so we, so we started deciding that what we wanted to do is help train people that had consistent, repeated encounters.

• 2:28:19Speaker 07

  You know, because we found that to be a fairly common theme. That if you've been abducted once, you've been usually abducted more than once, right? And so that if it's going to happen again, to try to train a person through holotropic breathing, to kind of just calm themselves down. And to get centered, to try to get mastery over that kind of cellular response that your body has. Because all of us that are alive right now are the end of the chain of survivors. I mean, that's what's distinguished us, you know, that our lineage have all survived.

• 2:28:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:52Speaker 07

  And gotten us through.

• 2:28:53Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating, though. He's talking about almost like a manual for being physiologically ready for contact.

• 2:28:59Speaker 07

  That's right. Absolutely right. To try to overcome the cellular imprint that we have in us to react.

• 2:29:05Jesse Michels?

  Allergic reaction.

• 2:29:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:29:07Jesse Michels?

  And it is like if you're, you know, like the three body problem, if you're in the dark forest and you are afraid of making contact, it's actually adaptive to sort of hide yourself. You would want to know that the other side is sort of receptive and stable and going to be okay.

• 2:29:22Speaker 07

  Yes, yes.

• 2:29:22Jesse Michels?

  You know, when you, when you appear.

• 2:29:24Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 2:29:25Jesse Michels?

  Because if you, you know, cause this.

• 2:29:26Speaker 07

  Oh, they get, they get in trouble. I mean, you know, Karen, one of the, they used to throw things at him. I mean, she'd throw lamps.

• 2:29:33Jesse Michels?

  She was one of Max's patients.

• 2:29:34Speaker 07

  She was one of them.

• 2:29:35Jesse Michels?

  That's cool. Crazy. Yeah.

• 2:29:37Speaker 07

  And she was one of the first people who really got the, the holotropic breathing training.

• 2:29:41Jesse Michels?

  So are you gonna release this book? Or what are you, what are you, what are you planning on doing with this?

• 2:29:46Speaker 07

  I haven't, I haven't ever, he just gave it to me because he was getting set to go to England to do this lecture on T E Lawrence and wanted me to go through it. Because it, it covers a lot of the encounter we had with the, the faculty committee.

• 2:30:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:00Speaker 07

  It's kind of his, his account of what, what happened.

• 2:30:04Jesse Michels?

  He was such an interesting guy. Well, he won a Pulitzer Prize for his book called The Prince of Disorder, which is about-

• 2:30:11Speaker 07

  Prince of R Disorder.

• 2:30:12Jesse Michels?

  Prince of R Disorder, about T E Lawrence. He was Lawrence of Arabia.

• 2:30:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was a psychobiography-

• 2:30:18Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:30:18Speaker 07

  Of, of Lawrence.

• 2:30:19Jesse Michels?

  Who I believe was, he was gay and he had been sort of sexually assaulted multiple times. And he had this sort of crazy, and then he led this uprising, you know, and-

• 2:30:28Speaker 07

  He's a very fascinating character.

• 2:30:30Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating, fascinating character. And Mack himself was such a fascinating character.

• 2:30:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:30:36Jesse Michels?

  I feel like his search for the UFO and alien question was kind of motivated by some autobiographical stuff with his mother, who I think, did she die during childbirth or when he was very young?

• 2:30:48Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no. In fact, his mother played this really kind of major role in that.

• 2:30:51Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:30:52Speaker 07

  Because he, when, when he first got dragged up, or when he first started encountering these high level military officials-

• 2:31:00Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:31:01Speaker 07

  That were ordered to get a psychiatric exam to try to deter them from really pressing any further on this. It was the first thing that would happen, that they'd be ordered to get a psychiatric exam.

• 2:31:10Jesse Michels?

  Because they'd seen an alien or something?

• 2:31:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, because they wanted to file a report.

• 2:31:14Jesse Michels?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:31:14Speaker 07

  They wanted to file a report about, you know, an UFO encounter.

• 2:31:18Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:31:19Speaker 07

  And they were always told that, you know, like, you don't want to do this. This is not good for your career.

• 2:31:22Jesse Michels?

  Did John Mack, was he kind of abreast of any of the UFO stuff from his Navy experience? Or no, it came later?

• 2:31:29Speaker 07

  No, nothing, no. He was, he was a complete agnostic.

• 2:31:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:32Speaker 07

  You know, to start with. And then he got sent these, like, like Arnie Arnoldson, who was the, the, the actual commander of the, the, the, the Montana base, you know, the Minuteman base.

• 2:31:47Jesse Michels?

  Malmstrom.

• 2:31:47Speaker 07

  Malmstrom, Malmstrom, that, that-

• 2:31:51Speaker 07

  He was the actual commander that filed the report with NORAD. About it all. And then they said, are you, are you trying to file a UFO report? Is that what you're doing? And he said, yes. He said, it was the most important moment of his life. He just said, yes, I am. He says, I'm not letting this one go. You know, because they shut off.

• 2:32:09Speaker 05

  They shut off ten silos.

• 2:32:11Speaker 07

  Independent, independently wired nukes. Minutemen. Yeah. And so he was adamant that he was gonna get that filed. And the, and so, you know, that he and a number of other high ranking military people have been sent to John Mack. At Harvard is the head of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry to do the psychiatric workup on these guys. And after a half a dozen of these folks, he started saying, wait a second. This doesn't make any sense at all. He said, you know, these are high ranking military people. There's lawyers and doctors. There's all kinds of people that are coming to report these things. It doesn't make any sense. And, and so he started this actually kind of like a little investigation. And he would train them to do the holotropic breathing and get them calmed down and centered, right?

• 2:32:55Speaker 07

  And then he was asking them questions. Okay, now you're inside the craft. Look around and tell me what you're seeing. And he was getting them to give little reports on these totally esoteric things. You know, that nobody would really make up, you know, and, and then he would see if other people saw similar stuff. You know, and he was verifying, and so he started got to the point where he said, wait a second. There's, there's something really happening here with these people. And so he called his mother. So she didn't die a child. So he called her and she said, oh, you ought to, you ought to check with.

• 2:33:34Speaker 07

  Bud, the Hopkins kid, you know, that he's into this stuff, you know, even though he's a sculptor and artist and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, that our families are close and you ought to, he knows a lot about this. And so that's how it happened is that he ended up talking to Bud Hopkins and Hopkins said, oh, look, let me show you. You know, and he started giving him a lot more people. And so, but by the time he contacted me. You know, he'd, he'd interviewed like a hundred people.

• 2:34:00Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 2:34:01Speaker 07

  You know, uh, who'd had these experiences? And so that, uh, and, and so he ended up calling me. And, uh, when he got confronted by this faculty committee.

• 2:34:11Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:34:11Speaker 07

  And they called me and asked me if I would legally represent him.

• 2:34:14Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:34:14Speaker 07

  Uh, and so I went there to, and confronted the, the, the faculty committee.

• 2:34:21Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:34:21Speaker 07

  You know, and, but very fortunately, went with John to meet with Lawrence Rockefeller. And Lawrence Rockefeller, you know, told us all about, you know, his best friend seeing a UFO. That's why he was convinced it was true.

• 2:34:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Lawrence Rockefeller was a patron for a lot of early UFO research. He funded John Mack.

• 2:34:38Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 2:34:39Jesse Michels?

  He funded Stephen Greer. Uh, I think Whitley Stryber has told me a story about meeting with Lawrence Rockefeller in Wyoming in the Tetons at his ranch or whatever. Why do you think Lawrence Rockefeller was so interested in the subject? So you mentioned that his friend had an experience. That's interesting. Whitley.

• 2:34:56Speaker 07

  Is the prince of Liechtenstein.

• 2:34:58Jesse Michels?

  Hans Adams.

• 2:35:00Speaker 07

  Whoever it was, that's all I want.

• 2:35:02Jesse Michels?

  He's apparently extremely interested in UFOs.

• 2:35:04Speaker 07

  It was his best friend.

• 2:35:05Jesse Michels?

  I think he thinks that Jesus is gonna come down on a saucer or something. It's like some eschatological worldview.

• 2:35:12Speaker 07

  I don't, I didn't know.

• 2:35:13Jesse Michels?

  And he, he gathered, the guy named John Brandonberg, who I interviewed, said that, uh, Prince Hans Adams, um, had, uh, gathered all of the, uh, Roswell witnesses.

• 2:35:26Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 2:35:27Jesse Michels?

  I think in the seventies or something, or the eighties, I don't know what, what, you know, and, uh, that he wanted to speak to all of them and kind of, you know, uh,

• 2:35:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:35:35Jesse Michels?

  understand what had happened.

• 2:35:36Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35:37Jesse Michels?

  So he was very interested in this.

• 2:35:38Speaker 07

  Well, that, and, and, uh, and Lawrence told us that, you know, cause he said, that's why he was so convinced that it was true.

• 2:35:44Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:45Speaker 07

  That his friend, who was the prince of Liechtenstein, had seen one.

• 2:35:48Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:48Speaker 07

  Uh, and that, uh, had actually walked right up onto one.

• 2:35:51Jesse Michels?

  Ah, it's so fascinating.

• 2:35:52Speaker 07

  That was in, that was up in the mountains, very similar to a, to a, uh, an experience of one of the guys that I knew.

• 2:35:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:58Speaker 07

  You know, the, the son of, uh, uh, Bill Todman.

• 2:36:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:36:04Speaker 07

  You know, Mark Goodson and Bill Todman, uh, Mark Goodson and Bill Todman were the guys that used to produce I Love Lucy and the Sixty Four Thousand Dollar Question and that tune. All those kind of quixy shows, kind of things back in the fifties and made millions.

• 2:36:18Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:36:18Speaker 07

  You know, and, uh, and, uh, I was out, I was out at the. We were, uh, Mace Newfeld and Bob Ramey. They contacted me, the guys that do all the Tom Clancy. Oh, yeah, yeah. They wanted to do the Iran contra movie. Uh huh. And so they, they contacted me to talk with them down in, down in LA. And I was down in the office with, uh, Bob Ramey. The, who's the president of the Academy of Virus and Science. He's the head of the Oscars thing, you know? And, uh, so we were talking with him and his, his, uh, executive, uh, his exec, uh, uh, his name, uh,

• 2:36:58Speaker 07

  I forgot his name right, but anyway, that, that he contacts me, uh, and said, uh, he said, look, there's a, a friend of mine that wants to talk to you. The, you know, that would you, uh, he told me not to say who he is, but would you trust me to, to, uh, take you there to him? So I said, okay, we'll do that. So, so we went out and, uh, what was the guy's name? We, we go out, get into this big red Cadillac convertible and we drive off into, uh, Warner Brothers. And we go over to the Warner Brothers lot and we go in and it turns out that it's, uh, Bill Todman's son. Of Mark Goodson and Bill Todman. So here's his son, who's now, uh, uh, a, an exec in Warner Brothers, you know?

• 2:37:43Speaker 07

  And, uh, and he wanted to tell me about an experience that he had had. And that he had, uh, he was, uh, in college and he was, uh, on summer break and he was in the Tetons, you know, outside of Boulder. Uh, and he was climbing in the Tetons and he came up into this meadow and there was a UFO just sitting right, hovering right there in the meadow. And he walked all the way over to it and, and put his hand on it. He said, and it was like alive. He said, this is alive, this thing, you know? And then the, the whole thing started kind of shuddering and, and raised up. So he backed away from it and it just went, went shot away. Wow. And he, he wouldn't, he didn't dare tell anybody. Cause he thought that they would ruin his whole reputation and stuff in the industry.

• 2:38:27Speaker 07

  Uh, but, uh, it turns out that he said that. His father, Mark Goodson, uh, senior, or Bill Todman, senior, uh, was, uh, best friends with, uh, uh, he's this big, famous, uh, author that writes these romance novels. Anyway, that, uh, uh, and he wrote, he wrote a book about it, uh, partly because Bill Todman, Jr. told him that he'd had this experience. He wrote a thing called The Doomsday, The Doomsday, uh, Doomsday Plan or something. Who's the author? Um, Sidney Sheldon. Hmm.

• 2:39:07Speaker 07

  His name was. And he wrote like 50 of these, you know, books, you know, made millions of dollars. He too, wouldn't dare ever be public about it. So he wrote this book called The Doomsday Project. You know, a, a hypothetical of a, of a, a, a saucer that had crashed, uh, in a tour bus over in Italy or somewhere, uh, happened to be driving by when they were doing a recovery of it. And so this young lieutenant colonel, uh, in the naval intelligence was assigned to find out where all the people were that were on the bus that saw this, because they, uh, just wanted

• 2:39:48Speaker 07

  to explain to them that this was just an experimental, uh, thing, you know, so that they wouldn't be distressed. Well, it turns out they all started getting killed, all these witnesses. And, uh, and, and so, uh, Sidney Sheldon wrote this book, it's complete fiction about it. Uh, and that's the only time he ever said anything about it. And then went right back to his normal life. Wow. And so, uh, so Bill Todman, Jr. wanted me to know about this, just to tell me. And so I've been constantly trying to get him over the years. So why don't you, I mean, Go public, yeah. You got more money than the Pope, you know, now for your inheritance. Why don't you? You won't do it? He still hasn't agreed to do anything. Well, you've done it for him now. Yeah. Yeah, Bill Todd, because he was perfectly honest about it. I didn't have any doubt that it was true. Sure, sure.

• 2:40:33Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well. He's a real nice guy. Yeah. But it still hasn't done anything.

• 2:40:39Jesse Michels?

  Danny, it's exciting times right now. Do you have a prediction for the next three months of disclosure and the UFO truth?

• 2:40:47Speaker 07

  Some of it's easy. So, you know, the Senate bill is going to get repassed, you know, all 64 pages, exactly the same.

• 2:40:55Jesse Michels?

  The Senator Rounds?

• 2:40:56Speaker 07

  It's Rounds is going to sponsor it.

• 2:40:58Jesse Michels?

  From South Dakota?

• 2:40:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, from South Dakota. He's going to sponsor it. And I'm sure that Schumer will co-sponsor it. We don't have Marco around anymore.

• 2:41:16Jesse Michels?

  Rubio.

• 2:41:17Speaker 07

  Rubio to sponsor it. But, you know, we're hoping to try to get State Department in on this.

• 2:41:23Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:41:24Speaker 07

  Because there's this whole State Department dimension that is totally inappropriate for the State Department not to have been brought in on this. I mean, you're dealing with an entire foreign power here and they're being axed out. So, I mean, now that Rubio's over there, you know, he ought to...

• 2:41:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he's very interested and on record on this whole topic and...

• 2:41:42Speaker 07

  Sure he is.

• 2:41:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, one of his aides was probably as deep as it gets on the topic as well and was sort of, you know, I think encountered a bunch of obstacles as a result of his involvement.

• 2:41:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. So, the bottom line is they're going to, they're going to, the Senate is going to pass the 64-page bill again, probably around the middle of July, between July 15th, 20th or so, that they'll pass it and they'll send it on over to the House. You know, we're focusing on Crenshaw. Crenshaw, you know, Dan Crenshaw is now the new head of the Intelligence Committee in the House. And that's where we ran into trouble before. It was primarily Mike Turner, who was the Congressman from Ohio, Wright Patterson District, you know, was stopping the full bill from being passed.

• 2:42:32Jesse Michels?

  Is Crenshaw pro UFO and transparency?

• 2:42:34Speaker 07

  We don't know yet. We're trying to get, but he's certainly not.

• 2:42:40Speaker 07

  Uh, anywhere near as bad as Turner was. Uh huh. You know, Turner had his own personal agenda because of his constituency there. Uh huh. You know, with the, with the base. Uh huh. But, but Crenshaw is a, a guy that's, you know, been critical of things he doesn't agree with. He's, he's kind of a bit of a maverick, uh, and he's got a lot of integrity. You know, tough guy, you know, it's a, is, is a SEAL Team dude, you know, but, uh, Eye patch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he, but he's not, he's not just kind of a knee jerk reactionary. Yeah. You know, so he's, there's real promise there. And so we're going to be meeting with him and his staff and try to get him to see if he can give a, a leadership in the Intelligence Committee to green light the, the full bill.

• 2:43:26Speaker 07

  You know, or at least a lot more of it. Yeah. We've gotten 23 pages of the 64 passed with unfortunate, some amendments even of that part. Yep. But, but the bottom line, what we're after is the appointment of the board. Uh huh. That we, we want to get that portion of the 64 page bill done at least this time around is to get the, get the, the, the panel appointed, you know. Uh, now one of the challenges is that, well, our new paradigm institute is one of the groups that's authorized to, to make recommendations, uh, under the statute. Uh, but the president is the one ultimately decides who's going to, who he's going to appoint. The Congress can mandate that he do it. Uh huh.

• 2:44:09Speaker 07

  They can pass the statute and say the president is to appoint this board, you know, uh, but then he could, you know, he could appoint his daughter, you know, to be on it or whatever he wants to do. And so we're, we're going to try to appoint, we're trying to recommend a, a group that is, that is sort of almost beyond. Beyond criticism, you know, the kind of people you'd really want to have there. And then hope that that will cause Trump to say, okay, good, that's a good group. Let's have them do it. So we're hoping this year, or at least this side of the next election, this side of the election in 2026,

• 2:44:52Speaker 07

  to get an additional chunk of the 64-page bill passed, specifically the part having to do with the with the board. Okay, and we're going to have, you know, it's going to be a dynamic going on with this board. There are going to be a lot of people inside the national security infrastructure that are going to want to have people in there that are going to continue to keep it as sphinctered as possible, you know. And then there's going to be lots of people putting pressure on us to try to have it be, you know, here, let's have it all, you know, like like Burchett. You know, let's just order the president to reveal everything right now, just dump it on everybody, you know, that's. So there's there are extremes all around us here.

• 2:45:34Speaker 07

  But what we're trying to do is kind of navigate our way through to to really the the dynamic that's going to take place, hopefully, between now and November of 2026, you know. Now, we've got the we've got the end of September coming here in 2025, when that's the extension that the the National Archives has given to the military services and the intelligence community to to gather together all the information they've got. Okay, and that that's a that's a standing order that they've got. You know, it's still got that wiggle language in there saying in there to turn it over to the National Archives as soon as possible.

• 2:46:18Speaker 07

  You know, the the Senate bill said immediately. And they gave them the drop dead date of October 20th. You know, and now they've managed to get the house to water it down, say as soon as possible. So my sense is their lawyers are going to push back against us. But so I'm not, I'm not, I, I don't give it more than a 51% chance. You know, that we're going to get any kind of meaningful release of that information.

• 2:46:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:43Speaker 07

  Uh, and at the end of September here.

• 2:46:45Jesse Michels?

  Well, Danny, you're doing the Lord's work and uh, Godspeed. I'm excited to see what, what happens uh, in the next few months and years. And uh, you're, you're a really important champion for this whole topic. And I hope that, uh, you know, as, as much as I love, you know, my own podcast, I hope that you go on like Tucker Carlson or Joe Rogan or something. And uh, the JFK thing is so important and I know both are so interested in it. And I, I, you know, I, I dabble in like, you know, I've, I've learned, you know, from Oliver Stone and, you know, read, uh, you know, Mark Lane and, and Jim Mars and all these guys. And like, I think you're the best living um, reteller of the entire story.

• 2:47:30Jesse Michels?

  In a way that is a coherent narrative with all of the players, but you also talk about motives. And so I think uh, it would be great if you um, if that was amplified as much as possible.

• 2:47:40Speaker 07

  No, I'd be happy to do it, you know, uh, the, you know, no, no interview is any better than the interviewer.

• 2:47:46Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh, uh huh. That's true. That's true. Well, I think they're both great, but I mean, they, more importantly than that, they have much bigger platforms than me. I mean, I have a big platform, but there's, they're next level. So biggest in the world.

• 2:47:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, and they, they both seem to be sincerely interested, you know, and so that's the key, you know, and that they're, they're not particularly biased or prejudiced in any way about it.

• 2:48:10Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 2:48:10Speaker 07

  And, and be, and because they, they straddle different kind of worldviews, you know, and reach out to people that are adherents to different worldviews, it's a valuable forum.

• 2:48:20Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:48:20Speaker 07

  Those, both of those guys.

• 2:48:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, Danny, it's an honor, man. Appreciate you taking the time. This is always awesome.

• 2:48:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:48:27Jesse Michels?

  Always learn so much.

• 2:48:59Speaker 13

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.