Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher

In this explosive conversation, James Fowler takes us deep into the inner workings of Skywatcher—a pioneering tech company claiming nearly 100% success detecting UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena). With military-grade gear, cutting-edge AI, and a staggering track record, they’re documenting crafts the government won’t talk about—Tic Tacs, Manta Rays, even jellyfish-shaped anomalies in our skies. Fowler breaks down the different classes of UAPs spotted during military war games, the classified physics that could explain their movement, and why the government is caught in a web of secrecy, control, and fear around disclosure. We explore the involvement of psionic assets—humans with enhanced perception—and their shocking potential in initiating contact. The conversation pushes into the ethical implications of engaging with non-human intelligences and how private companies might be closer to first contact than we think. This isn’t science fiction. This is happening now. Skywatcher isn’t just watching the skies—they’re pulling back the veil. | Skywatcher | YouTube ➤ ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@SkywatcherHQ⁠⁠ Website ➤ ⁠⁠https://skywatcher.ai/⁠⁠ | Sponsors | MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at ⁠⁠mudwtr.com/JESSE!⁠⁠ #mudwtrpod Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to ⁠⁠qualialife.com/jesse⁠⁠ and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. Cornbread Hemp: Go to⁠⁠ https://www.cornbreadhemp.com/jesse⁠⁠ and use code JESSE at checkout to save 30% on your first order of Cornbread Hemp CBD. Cornbread Hemp: This is the good life. -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ ⁠⁠https://whop.com/jessemichels⁠⁠ Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels⁠⁠ Discord ➤⁠⁠https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF⁠⁠ Instagram ➤ ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial⁠⁠ TikTok ➤ ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels⁠⁠ X ➤ ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican⁠⁠ Spotify ➤ ⁠⁠https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify⁠⁠ Clips Channel ➤ ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips⁠⁠ Media Inquiries ➤ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠ #JesseMichels #SkyWathcher #UFO #Disclosure #UAP #JamesFowler #FirstContact #Psionics #AlienTech #SecretPhysics Chapters 00:00 The Genesis of Skywatcher and UAPs 02:57 The Technology Behind UAP Detection 06:00 The Role of War Games in UAP Sightings 09:04 Understanding UAP Classifications 12:07 The Nature of UAPs: Friend or Foe? 15:13 Government Knowledge and UAPs 18:09 The Challenge of Data Collection and Analysis 21:06 Philosophical Perspectives on UAPs 23:46 The Intersection of Science and Spirituality 26:52 The Future of UAP Research and Disclosure 42:33 Secret Physics and Government Conflicts 45:16 The Role of Private Companies in Disclosure 48:46 Understanding UAP Technology 52:55 Chasing UAPs: Ground vs. Air Observations 56:52 Classifying UAPs: The Jellyfish and Other Classes 01:01:36 Psionics and UAP Interactions 01:05:39 The Manta Ray and Tic Tac Encounters 01:21:46 Observing the Unseen: The TIC-TAC and Manta Ray 01:24:51 The Cat and Mouse Game: Understanding UAPs 01:26:43 Psionic Assets and Their Role in UAP Research 01:30:18 Classifying the Unknown: UAP Classes Explained 01:36:01 The Elusive Hornet: Chasing the Unknown 01:39:20 The Quest for Retrieval: Hopes and Expectations 01:42:41 Government Oversight: Are We Being Red-Teamed? 01:45:35 The Jersey Drones: A National Security Concern 01:50:26 Future of Skywatching: Proactive Measures Against UAPs 01:52:57 First Contact: Preparing for Interaction with NHI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  Skywatcher truly is a technology company

• 0:36Speaker 01

  that was started because of UAP.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  After we turn on the dog whistle, UAPs literally come to us day after day. Jordan, our sonic lead, came up to me and Alex like, "Hey, tomorrow, we're going to see a conflict in the sky. We're going to have different UAPs are going to come in, and there's going to be..."

• 0:54Jesse Michels?

  He sensed that.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  He said that. Whoa.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  We're seeing multiple classes, three classes today. Saw them all with binoculars and/or the naked eye, which is really new for us. We've not had that experience in the last five years.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  These days, since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects they could mimic, and our detection platforms are so well-advanced, so we could see a lot more, then it really is a zoo of options and possibilities.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  We have three spectrums, and we see them on radar. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them, and they evade us, right? But they evade us because the ground can see them evading. From the air, we've never laid eyes on them. We're sitting there with binoculars, sitting there with SWEAR cameras.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  The reason why the electro-optical can see them cannot is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I think the government's conflicted right now. I think they have advanced, secret physics and knowledge and science.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  I agree with you.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  That they've had probably since at least the end of World War II.

• 2:08Speaker 04

  You know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not known?

• 2:13Speaker 03

  There certainly is materials knowledge.

• 2:16Speaker 04

  Materials, well, okay, material science.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Which involves topological physics or whatever.

• 2:20Jesse Michels?

  What I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly. You know, it's like the things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground, are the secret science things, is the consciousness stuff, and it all fits together in this neat thing. And then also space aliens, and they're from Zeta Reticula, and you're like, oh, it's easy. And in fact, all of those things could be their own disparate threads.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  The skies are not classified, and we are seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. Mid-turn, before he could actually turn it to the UAP, the UAP hit us with an energy weapon.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 3:27Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with James Fowler. It's an honor to have you, man. I am beyond intrigued at what you're doing with Skywatcher. We have a mutual friend, Jake Barber, who gave me the honor and privilege of helping tell his story after Roscoelthart came out as the first person, one of the first people, to retrieve this craft of non-human origin, an egg-shaped craft. And he mentioned, when I was interviewing him, that he had this private enterprise he was working on called Skywatcher. Since then, you guys have dropped a couple of really incredible videos, the second of which, I have to say, was pretty mind-blowing.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Each UAP class has different characteristics. Some shimmer, some tumble, some spin. Some look like they're alive and they just fly like a living object in the sky. UAPs are extremely hard to image. What is seen with the naked eye is generally not what is seen under camera.

• 4:18Jesse Michels?

  Even me, I'm sometimes skeptical, like what are these guys gonna find? And I thought the taxonomy, you guys had nine classes of UFOs that you showed, was really impressive and you're, I think, pushing the field forward with that categorization and with the sensing techniques you're using. So, James, thank you for being here today. I appreciate you.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Happy to be here, Jesse.

• 4:41Jesse Michels?

  And we're on this, what is this? The USS Hornet right now?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, a museum, a floating museum.

• 4:46Jesse Michels?

  A floating museum, UAP hackathon, so, super cool. And I guess the main question I want to start with is, how does one get into a private enterprise around detecting UAPs? What's the origin story for you?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Well, so, I started out in the military, spent a career there, retired as a sergeant major. Retired in 2020 and spent about 23 years working for the government, deploying a lot, jumping out of airplanes, doing interesting things in bad places, usually. After I retired, I started several companies and some of my companies were contracted by the government to do different war game projects. At one of those war game events in 2021, we had an observation. It turned out to be Class 1 UAPs. And we originally thought that that was a government-made, US government-made tool. So we're very secretive about it, we protected it and did all the due diligence to kind

• 5:46Speaker 01

  of make sure that that didn't get out anywhere, just in case it was made in America and need to be protected. So that's how we kind of got into it. It was actually by accident. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention... I am the, if you will, the lead operations guy. I'm the guy who drove the discovery, but I'm not the person, I'm not the pioneer that actually discovered it. Right, so there's two pioneers in this field who wish to remain anonymous right now. One is Mr. K, I'll say.

• 6:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  And he's a really cool dude. He's like a physicist, makes jet engines, flamethrowers, works on hot rods and does physics for fun as well. Like, he's really, really cool dude. He is actually the first one on our team that figured out that, hey, there's UAPs over us. And, hey, you gotta come look at this. And we discovered, okay, there's something going on here. And if it wasn't for him, we would not have figured out the dog whistle. We have not have progressed to where we're at. It is because of him that we've arrived here.

• 6:43Jesse Michels?

  Sounds like a genius. Sounds like a cool guy to hang out with.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he's a very, very cool dude. And the other one is Mr. D. He made a discovery with the signals. So for a while, we couldn't detect the UAPs with radar. Actually, the radar was detecting them but not telling us it was detecting them. And Mr. D figured out, hey, we can detect signals from these craft and geolocate them or direction find them in the sky and then put the camera on it and there it is. So those are really the two pioneers that, like, I feel like it's not fair if I don't mention them because they are the pioneers here, right?

• 7:20Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  I am merely the person who harnessed their knowledge and their pioneering attitude and capabilities to arrive where we are at today. If this is an advanced species and is smart enough to do what it's doing, they have the upper hand and we are the little ants under the magnifying glass. We had a Class 7 UAP. We went ahead and launched the Hilo to pursue it. Before the Hilo got here, it actually came and hovered right over us. For the first time, we saw a Class 7 with the naked eye. It was very glinty, looked metallic. Through our optics, we've always thought it was purple or black. Frankly, the reflections, it looked like chrome, almost, color.

• 7:56Jesse Michels?

  So you mentioned simulating war games and these UAPs show up. Do you think, and obviously you get into speculative territory and, you know, kind of philosophy, and I really want to get into kind of the hard data because that's what you guys sort of specialize in. But you think that might kind of show that we're living in some sort of three-body problem universe or something, where they don't want us to harm ourselves? You know, they show up around nuclear sites. They seem to, across the US, but even abroad as well. And does that signal that they don't want us to, you know, blow ourselves up or something? Or why do you think they show up around these sort of war games?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  So, we have some ideas on that, and I have some opinions on that. We'll say, for example, in 2021, the first time we saw them, we were running a war game for the government. The deliverable for that war game was tactics. And we had a blue team and a red team. The blue team's job was to bring American-made, government-made, and commercial-made protective systems for blue forces. Think air defense, think counter-drone, think other things. And then the red team was, again, American-made, as well as one-off hobbyist-type drones, aircraft and other things. And the red team's job was to penetrate the airspace of the blue team, or react, cause them to be able to basically tactically envelop the blue team

• 9:20Speaker 01

  and cause them to have a loss. And the blue team's job was to stop that. And, so we're running this event, and I'm up on the roof of a very tall building with two young interns with binoculars looking for drones, right? So, we're up there, I think we were two weeks into the project at this point. Every day, 12 hours a day, running the war game. And we're looking for drones as the mission controller, project controller, if you will, so I can modulate, "launch now," "don't launch now," or "hey, hey, blue team, did you guys even pick up on that drone that was just here?" Like, so I'm trying to modulate the exercise and keep things flowing so we can be effective in developing tactics. And my camera operator, Mr. K was like, hey, you have to come see this. There's something going on.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  So understand, we're up on the roof scanning the sky with binoculars, listening, seeing, and, and we see drones, but we don't see this other stuff. So I go down to the truck and he's like, look at this. And he shows me the class one formation of seven, the first sighting we had. This was the last day of the event. So we were shutting down a few hours later.

• 10:21Jesse Michels?

  And just for the audience, class one?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Class one's the Tetra.

• 10:24Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  So it's a black bodied object. It tumbles and spins at a very high rate of speed. We're shooting at about 26 frames per second, I believe. And between each frame, it's changed drastically in its flight characteristics and signatures that we can only, we can only see a little bit of it. And, and we can't really derive the shape. It looks like a tetrahedron, but it's really hard to say from the footage we have. Um, it looks like a tetrahedron that has, is wearing a hat. And the hat looks like it's made out of atmosphere, as in, uh, uh, if you have a low, a low pressure, high pressure differential, you can get vapor. Right? As in when a fast moving jet breaks the speed of sound, you see a vapor on the wings. That same effect looks like what we're seeing around the class one. And it basically wears it like,

• 11:08Speaker 01

  um, like some kind of field is holding it in place. And it's kind of there around it, kind of hiding the black body from, from the, the observer, if you will. So, and then that vapor tends to flash.

• 11:20Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Uh, it catches, uh, as it's moving kind of violently. It catches the, uh, the sun's rays, I believe, and reflects back. So that was actually what he saw was he was looking in the sky for drones, thinking nothing about UFOs, UAPs or anything else, and saw a flashing and said, what is that? Zoomed in and be like, oh wow, there's seven of these craft in a tight formation maneuvering on us. Right? And again, I told you, I was on the roof with interns with good ears and good eyes better than mine. We're not seeing a thing. So the human senses, there was nothing there. But these things flew probably two or 3,000 feet above, uh, above us and we had no idea they were there at all. But a drone, a drone of the same size.

• 12:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  In the same flight formation would have been. Blaringly obvious, glaringly obvious, excuse me. So it would have been so obvious that we couldn't have missed it.

• 12:09Jesse Michels?

  So UAP by definition is unidentified.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:13Jesse Michels?

  And it's even broader than UFO because it's aerial phenomena. When you see these sort of tetrahedron-like things in formation as you're simulating war games, is your first instinct, oh, this is some state-of-the-art technology? That's probably Russian or Chinese because there's a lot of reasons for them to want to see the red team, blue team stuff that we're doing at home here in the US, right? Or is your first instinct, this is not from here?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I'm kind of all over the map, frankly. I get conflicting signals, if you will, from the data we're seeing. None of the rabbit holes, I call them, if you go down, they, hey, it's made in America rabbit hole. Doesn't make any sense. I've been on project and had special programs without telling us, bring their secret things to our event. And so when we are exposed to that technology, which has happened several times, it's usually, hey, you signed an NDA, don't talk about it, don't share it, delete that data. They can tell your interns that I don't have a clearance, I know anything. And we're just going to write it off and move on.

• 13:16Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And nobody's done this for the UAPs, right? And it should be noted that we go to events and have gone to events over the years where the government has been there already on another project.

• 13:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And we show up day one and they have UAPs all over their event and they have no idea.

• 13:33Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Because they're not looking for them, they don't know they're there, they're very hard to see. If you don't know how to spot them with your technology, you're not going to be able to even see them or acknowledge that they're in your airspace.

• 13:42Jesse Michels?

  So it's either adversary or NHI, right?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  I would take it a step further and say it's not either or necessarily. It could be both.

• 13:53Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Right? And I would also offer that what we are seeing, my observations and my team's observations are that whoever or whatever is controlling these is probing our capabilities. So it's not like, if I see a class one, it doesn't just stay in a straight azimuth and fly north or south like it was already flying. No, it approximates us at the edge of our active telemetry systems, like a radar and jammers and other equipment that may or may not be present during whatever kind of event we're running. It will approximate on the edge of that effective bubble and then fly through the bubble of effect.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  So they're putting themselves in beam of our systems.

• 14:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  And there's very few reasons why you'd do that from a defense perspective.

• 14:41Jesse Michels?

  They're gathering information.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Probably. I mean, there's, there's not a whole lot of reasons why you would put yourself, if I had this secret stealth technology, if I have an F-35, am I going to fly out to Russia and buzz Moscow?

• 14:51Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  And get in their radars and let them quantify what my F-35 looks like?

• 14:55Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I would, I would, I'm not an air force guy, but I'd imagine, no.

• 14:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I'd imagine that would be dangerous.

• 15:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Not because of getting shot down, that's obviously a problem, but also because now they know precisely how I look on their radar, which means they can weaponize that to detect me in the future.

• 15:11Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:13Jesse Michels?

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• 15:55Jesse Michels?

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• 16:34Jesse Michels?

  That's right, up to 43% off with code JESSIE at M-U-D-W-T-R dot com. After your purchase, the last Ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mudwater. Because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. It's like the, that whole thing, the Chinese spy balloon of, you know, I think it was 2023, January 2023, where you had this balloon, it was flying over the Aleutian Island chains in Alaska. And I think it was probably figuring out the limits of our radar detection. Because that's where we had our ICBM detection methods, state of the art stuff.

• 17:17Jesse Michels?

  And so if you have this balloon, you can figure out, you know, what's reflecting back. You know, at what distance are we actually picking up, you know, where, you know, where they are? And that's, that's really valuable, right? And then it ends up flying over, I think, Montana, where you obviously have Malmstrom and all these, you know, other kind of Minutemen bases. So that's interesting. So when you say it's kind of a false dichotomy adversary in NHI, does that mean the NHI could be adversary? Does that mean Russia, China are somehow partnered with the NHI? Like, your mind goes into all these different possible kind of, you know, variations or permutations of that. Do you guys have kind of a base case there or?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  No, so there's too many variables really to understand. We have five years of data, terabytes of radar imagery, video, photos, signals, intelligence, if you will, RF, we've collected, direction finding, all those different, all these different categories of data.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  And even with that kind of data and that kind of time, we don't have enough data yet to tell us the answer. And I would offer, the reason for that is we're not running scientific test events, right? There's a distinct differentiator there. Right now, we're running an operation, right? An operation means I have just enough personnel to man the equipment to do the task. And then we're gonna record what they collect while they're running that operation and doing that task. And then we're gonna postanalyze it. A test event would be, I would have extra people with clipboards and whistles and scientists on, looking over our shoulders. I'd probably have double or triple the, the. The labor footprint.

• 18:53Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  And they would have a series of test event, uh, criteria, objectives that were pre-coordinated. And they would come out and ensure that we capture all the data and it's all meticulously done. And then after the event, we write a report and do the thing.

• 19:06Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  I would offer that we strive to arrive at a test event. And the reason why we strive is it's very expensive.

• 19:12Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I have to double or triple my costs now in labor to pay people to come out and run a test event, which is very hard to do as a commercial entity. The government does it all the time because the government has endless wealth, right? Uh, as a commercial entity, like where does that money come from?

• 19:26Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Right? Especially as a private enterprise who is not, uh, selling anything to the government right now or doesn't have a relationship.

• 19:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And then I would offer it's further compounded by, uh, we have been contracted in the past by the government to collect UAP data.

• 19:39Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Um, and those contracts had nothing to do with UAPs.

• 19:44Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Right? We continued running war game events or other events for the government when all they really wanted was UAP data.

• 19:50Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Right? So, so I say that because, uh, I don't foresee any future, at least in our current paradigm, where the government's gonna say, hey, James, hey, Skywatcher, uh, we want you to go collect UAP data at whatever location and give us that. That, that has not happened to my knowledge. And I know of nobody that's had a contract like that. Instead, it's, can you tell us what's on our airspace? Uh, can you run a war game?

• 20:12Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Um, so because of that mismatch in reality, in the inability of our bureaucracy and decision makers to directly affront the situation of UAPs, instead they have to be surreptitious about it and talk.

• 20:26Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's kind of circular about it.

• 20:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  That actually befuddles our ability to have a test event or TE, um, or test evaluation where we have a large body of people present.

• 20:37Jesse Michels?

  Right. Yeah, it's frustrating. You have to kind of talk about it in a circular way and you can't just kind of go, go to the heart of the matter because it's not even acknowledged at the highest levels of our government still, which is pretty crazy.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I'd say it's even deeper than that.

• 20:49Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  The, uh, there's really three, three categories of people.

• 20:52Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  When you talk about UAPs, you have one category, which is religious. In the religious category, you'll often find, um, People who are very intelligent, very smart, like normal people.

• 21:04Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  But they tend on this topic to assign a religious filter to the lens they're looking at it through.

• 21:11Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Right? And, and the challenge there is you're going to get somebody saying, well, you're talking to angels and demons. You're, you're interfering with God instead of, hey, what is the science behind what you're seeing?

• 21:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Right? And so that lens can be detrimental to us being effective with that group. The other group is the group that thinks everything's man-made, made in China, made in Russia, made in the US. Right?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  That group also has a lens and they look at through a national security lens.

• 21:39Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And so they, they think, well, Skywatcher, you're revealing national secrets. You're sharing too much detail here and, and subverting the national defense. Right? And so again, they're closed-minded because they don't want to discover more because they, they feel like they're patriotic and nationalistic. But really, they're anti-science almost.

• 21:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  And then the third category of people are people who are truly open-minded, who can put aside pre-conditions, pre-beliefs, or things maybe from their upbringing or personal beliefs and just study science and let, let the observations and observables tell them what it is.

• 22:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And so you never know who you're going to get, which is why, like I said, we have to be circular.

• 22:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And our true objectives when we speak with these officials, because they are not prepared to, to speak with us in truth.

• 22:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's well said. It feels like it's kind of Assila and Corribdis and their two failure modes are on the one hand. Yeah, maybe being too mired in past dogma, you know, kind of religious fundamentalist dogma. And then on the other hand, it's like atheist materialist reductionism, nothing, you know, it's all nuts and bolts. And there's nothing else or something. It's total closed, closed-mindedness, kind of in both directions or something. An approach that is kind of open minded and just data driven, I think, is great. Another question this begets, and then I want to get into the core data, because I think you guys have a lot of interesting stuff there. But is like, so if that's a spectrum, the like materialist and the, you know, kind of religious thing.

• 23:10Jesse Michels?

  I think there's also a spectrum of they're all good and they're all bad. And to me, Occam's razor is this probably, just like humans, probably there's a mix of like, there's, there's good and there's bad or something. And so I don't know if you have a take there, but you have like Lou Alizondo, you know, long time, you know, OSAP, ATIP, you know, modern, modern day UAP whistleblower. Who is, for a while at least, was more on kind of the threat narrative. And then you have Stephen Greer, who, you know, has known Jake for a while and, you know, he's more on the like, I just interviewed him. He's like, it's all, they're all good. And I would say it's probably in between those two, you know, like the answer can't be all good or all bad or something. So I don't know if you have a take there.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. So some of the UAP we've observed just maneuver through the airspace and depart. Right? So that's really like hard to determine friend or foe, who is it? Which is why for a long time, we were very secretive with this. We thought what we were seeing was red or blue, right? We assumed that it was manmade and it was a weapon system being utilized on us to see what we would observe or learn from it. That isn't necessarily the case in our minds anymore. But that's why we kept everything very secretive to protect national defense. Right? Now that we've understood some new things, we've kind of come out, if you will, and are more open about what we're observing, which is why, which is why we're public now. So, so the class one just moves through.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  We don't see any adverse reactions or really many interactions with the class one. It will dodge our lasers, if we shine lasers at it, but that's as much interactions we'll get from that class of UAP. There are other classes who have interacted with us in a negative manner. Some of them interact, I think inadvertently negative with us, as in they're emanating perhaps through. Their technology, they're emanating electromagnetic waves that are in energy that are interfering with our equipment. So it's more of an area effect. So I feel like it's probably not on purpose. And then there's another class that's actually hit us with a microwave weapon. So actually shut down our systems.

• 25:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  You turned everything to the off position.

• 25:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Right? That's a very deliberate. Now is that defensive or offensive?

• 25:24Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Is it shutting us down to protect itself or shutting us down to to understand how we'll react?

• 25:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's so interesting. It's like you get into all these philosophical questions of are they prepping the battle space? Or are they showing us that our ways are brutish and our war games need to stop or something? Cause we might, you know, blow ourselves up and it's just really, it kind of boils down to philosophy. And so I do think, you know, gathering data is good, but it does bring up this interesting question, which is from my limited experience with you, you seem like very like practical and very data oriented. And like just kind of the preeminent kind of practitioner, like where you, you want to find an answer. You don't want to get caught up in, you know, necessarily like crazy kind of philosophical discussions.

• 26:14Jesse Michels?

  I've spoken with Jake a little bit before you, and it does feel like this kind of spiritual journey for him. I've spoken with Alex Clocas, who I know, you know, is working with you guys as well. It seems like kind of a spiritual thing for him. How do you reconcile that? You know, is it good to have kind of a mix as far as, you know, the team you want? You know, some guys who are a little more philosophical, some guys who are kind of more execution oriented or? How do you, how do you view that? Cause it does feel like a lot of people who get into the UFO subject and study it from the government perspective, like OSAP with, you know, Skinwalker Ranch. They come in like, maybe like, oh, we're just going to figure some stuff out and they come out. I don't want to say more religious, but more like reverential, like where they're like,

• 26:57Jesse Michels?

  like I, you know, I went and then I got a little spooked. Honestly, I had a weird month after I went. And it kind of put the fear of God at me with this stuff. So yeah, I guess, how do you think about all of that?

• 27:08Speaker 01

  So let me actually take a step back to our origin story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, so I'm not a whistleblower. I never held a clearance in the government related to anything or was right on to anything with UAPs whatsoever. My government experience frankly just made me the person I am who can be open minded and observe and report, collect and understand, right? So it's kind of, that's kind of a unique position to be in. Unlike David Garesch or Jake Barber, others, Lou Alizondo, I have no whistleblower story at all. Yep. Everything we've done for Skywatcher is 100% commercial activity. Yep. That commercial activity might be in support of a government event, again unrelated to UAPs, because the government has said, "Look, thanks for the observation, we have nothing on this," right? Mm-hmm.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So, Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAP. Eh. Right? So if you look at Anduril, you look at Khaki, you look at Boeing, Lockheed, all these other bigs, um, they were started for national defense purposes. Hmm. Right? So they started with a preconceived notion of, "I want to spot a stealth aircraft. I want to spot a MiG-31. I want to spot a supersonic missile." And they worked backwards to develop technology for that purpose. Hmm. Skywatcher conversely has started with, "We're looking at an unknown enemy weapon system, or weapon system, or thing in the sky. We don't know what it is, and we don't have a good signature of what that looks like, and we want to detect that." Hmm. So what we did is we consulted with industry experts, pioneers in their craft,

• 28:40Speaker 01

  academia, some savants, and said, "Here is a classified drone threat. Here's the parameters I need to measure. How do we design a system that will actually detect this drone threat? And enable us to, uh, understand more about that threat." So, for three years, we've been developing Skywatcher as a technology, right? That basically flips the paradigm on its head. Instead of saying, "I want to track a MiG-31," we're saying, "I want to know what that thing is in the sky that nobody else is there, and I want to quantify it." So, Skywatcher actually was, uh, my cover term for UAPs. Ah. Right? Uh, I have briefed VCs, I have briefed, uh, high net worth individuals, I have briefed the government

• 29:23Speaker 01

  on Skywatcher as a technology without ever saying the word "UAP." Hmm. Because, again, when we thought that the UAPs might be... A national defense problem. Yeah. We approached it from a veil of secrecy. Yeah. And Skywatcher was how we would converse with people about technology development that's really slated for UAP detection and tracking. So, we are a technology company rooted in unexplainable, unknown physics and trying to understand that from a defense perspective. Hmm. Right? So, because of our scientific approach to this, we have a lot of data and we don't have a lot of room for areas that don't have data. Hmm. Right?

• 30:08Speaker 01

  So, what I mean by that is, as I said in the episodes, I'm not a believer. Yeah. I don't want to have faith in this. I don't want, I don't want to have to trust me, bro. And like, see, you know, believe you when you tell me, no, show me the data. Yeah. And then I'll know and I'll have knowledge. Yeah. And then I can understand.

• 30:24Jesse Michels?

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• 31:06Jesse Michels?

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• 31:40Jesse Michels?

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• 32:03Speaker 01

  So on the UAP side, in terms of craft in the sky, I think we have that. Right? And I say that the episodes we produced, why do we do that? Alex and I had a conversation about this and I was very insistent, as was he, like, we have four, four and a half years of data.

• 32:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Right? It sits on a drive in a certain place and.

• 32:23Jesse Michels?

  That's also important for the audience to understand that you've been at this for a while. You've, the public reveal was more recent, but you've been at this for almost five years now.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Five years, yeah. The analysis of that data is onerous. It's hard to do, it's expensive. And Gary Nolan talked about that today at the hackathon about how hard data is, even his data that he has, it's very hard and expensive. There's a real monetary cost to do, to conducting the analysis and doing it scientifically. So the data is great to have, but analyzing the data is very hard. So instead, as an interim, we've decided to video and document the activities as they unfold. And so at a great cost to our own business and expense, if you will, and time and energy and effort, we have documented these things so that when the data is released scientifically, they have a backstory to understand how the data was collected.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Because again, the data, the scientific report, a white paper, a scientific journal saying a thing is just a snapshot.

• 33:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And most people have no clue what that means in terms of general public. But if they can reference a video that covers that place and time of that event unfolding where that data was collected, now it tells a whole story. Now you have the anecdotal, you have the literal live imperfect experience as things unfold, and then you have the post very scientific data analysis that actually covers down exactly explicitly the analysis of how that event unfolded.

• 33:51Jesse Michels?

  Yep. And I want to get into the data. Final question before we dive into the taxonomy and all the classes, which I'm really excited about is Jake Barber, how did you partner up with Jake and how'd you meet him?

• 34:04Speaker 01

  So I was very cautious for a long time of who I would meet with or talk with. I actually met with Gary one time and did it in a way that frankly made him very uncomfortable.

• 34:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Because who's this guy meeting me?

• 34:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Like, he was a little freaked out because I was very secretive and very spy versus spy type of meetings.

• 34:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Um, with Gary and then I also ran into some congressional staff members did the same thing of like, I don't want to be on your calendar, but I want to like your congressperson saying publicly that they want this. Well, I have it. Let's talk. Um, but again, we kept everything in the IC and very secretive.

• 34:41Jesse Michels?

  Um, so first I met Gary and then I met Alex and then after we, we met,

• 34:46Speaker 01

  uh, Jake and I met when we started forming the, the company, uh, Skywatcher as a, as a private entity.

• 34:52Jesse Michels?

  Cool. All right. Let's get into the data. So, uh, you guys just released a video. Um, that's just fascinating where you have nine classes of UAP that you described. Uh, can we go through them class by class? Are you cool with that?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

• 35:07Jesse Michels?

  And, um, I don't know if you remember all of them off the top. I have a pic on my phone if you know all. Okay. I love it. Um, awesome. Man, who knows crap. Okay. So, uh, no pun intended. So, uh, uh, let's go with class one.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Class one is the Tetra. Uh, the Tetra does have, uh, different characteristics than just a, a multiband imagery. So electro-optical, which means daylight camera, usually with a little bit more bandwidth, if you will. So you can see a little bit more than the human eye can see in, in the visible spectrum. Uh, then we have middle wave infrared and short wave infrared. All three of those sensors see the class ones. It registers on all of them. And then also we have radar that we see the class one on.

• 35:54Jesse Michels?

  Any typical behavior that the class ones engage with? You mentioned they were in a formation before. Any, any other interesting data that you have on them?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the class one tend to fly in groups. We've seen one or two as a singleton, but usually they're in groups of three to 20. And that group tends to fly through in some kind of formation. And it can be everything from four or five craft seemingly locked together, maneuvering as a group with another group. And even a third, all the way from that to looking like a V formation, like a stealth bomber would look, or a flock of birds. But clearly doing UAP things that don't happen in nature. So we've seen them fly through in those formations right over us. Right? So like most UAPs, they'll deviate their flight paths that we first see them on.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Then they'll come into beam of our telemetry systems and we'll see them on a map. And we'll know exactly the altitude, airspeed, or excuse me, ground speed. Radar cross-section will have all that data on that craft at that time, or that group of craft. And then we'll follow their flight path as they fly right over us, or right next to us, or whatever maneuver they're doing. So we'll see the class ones fly right over us. Like I said, usually in a formation of some kind.

• 37:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay, class two, what are we looking at?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Class two is a Tic Tac. So it's about 40 feet in length. We saw that first in 22 and then in 23. And then we didn't see them again until 25, till February this year. We've seen them in groups of one to three. They don't appear to fly in formation as much as arrive together in a group. And then depart as singletons. So really hard to say, we don't have, we don't know that we have them on radar yet. We have a lot of radar data. And for example, in our February event, we had a class two which exhibited some very strange behavior, which you'd never seen.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  It actually used the hills to hide from us and came in, hide from our primary sensors. So we're watching jellyfish fly through the sky. And started having interference with our systems, we believe from the jellyfish. And then we had some weird radar blips to the north of us. And so we started looking to the north. And then we saw several UAP, one of which was a Tic Tac. So. So the Tic Tac, we have laser range finder returns on it. And we have it in multiple spectrums of imagery. But we don't have any signal from it, and we don't have any radar that we know of from it.

• 38:39Jesse Michels?

  Do you guys have infrared?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:41Jesse Michels?

  Because, and you have infrared of the Tic Tac?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 38:44Jesse Michels?

  Because, yeah, I think of Nimitz, you know, 2004, and I think that the best imagery for that was thermal, you know, forward-looking infrared. 2004 case with David Fravor and, you know, USS Princeton, so.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Well, so, what's interesting is the government, if they have it, have never released the electro-optical view of the Tic Tac. I don't know their motivation, whether they have that footage, or they had chosen not to release it.

• 39:09Jesse Michels?

  They say they do.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  But, but I'll say, in our footage of the Tic Tacs, they are not a round cylinder only. Right? They're actually more like a porcupine.

• 39:19Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  So if you look at, if you zoom in and enhance the footage, you can actually see little spikes all around the craft, around the perimeter of it.

• 39:28Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  You know, kind of riding the, the surface of it. Furthermore, I talked about in the other video, the episode, that they, they appear to bend when they come out of high G maneuvers.

• 39:41Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  So they're flexible, or semi-rigid, if you will.

• 39:45Jesse Michels?

  I think you, do you guys have video, maybe that's the Manta, I don't remember, but it feels like the thing is bending in the video. Is that the Tic Tac?

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and ProPixel did a good job of zooming in and enhancing and showing that.

• 39:59Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so a little AI enhancement, yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which, which we didn't do ourselves on purpose.

• 40:04Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Right? We wanted to give our government the chance to say, stop sharing this data.

• 40:08Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Sensitive, so we did a very controlled, limited release with footage that wasn't the most spectacular.

• 40:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Uh, to give the government that opportunity to ask us to rescind or stop.

• 40:18Jesse Michels?

  Have you gotten any calls to stop what you're doing, or?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  No, quite the opposite. I've sat in meetings with various agencies of the government.

• 40:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Very recently.

• 40:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Um, we do routinely.

• 40:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Uh, share a lot with the government, and I've asked the government to nebulize me, to give me an NDA.

• 40:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  To tell us to stop, uh, make us, you know, make, give us some kind of indication, or even lately, hey, give us some talking points.

• 40:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Like, what helps national defense on this?

• 40:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you, the government's refused. So, I, you know, what does that mean?

• 40:50Jesse Michels?

  I, you know, in a much probably smaller, more mini way than you've experienced, feel the same way. I feel like the lights are on, but no one's home often with the, on the government with this stuff. Where on the one hand, you have David Grush's claims and, and, and others, and honestly, a lot of historical evidence that we have real reverse engineering programs, we have saucers and hangers, like, you know, we know a lot about this stuff. And then on the other side of the spectrum, it's like you, you continuously meet these people where you're like, oh, that person should be like, one of the architects of this thing, or, you know, whatever. You get into these rooms and like, it, it often feels extremely frustrating where it's like, no one knows what's going on.

• 41:33Jesse Michels?

  And if there's anything, you know, we were talking about this earlier, like, you know, China has its own centralized way. Even if you read the three body problem, it's like, they'll just knock on the scientist's door and say, you're coming with us, right? And in the US, you have these kind of private side, you know, people innovating on, you know, anything happening. And that's, that's, it's always this kind of distributed loose thing. It's not this fully top-down centralized system. So it's, it's, it's just so hard to make, make sense of how much the government actually knows, knows on this. So is your sense that they, they don't know, are they playing dumb, or what?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  So, I think it's kind of a mix.

• 42:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Right? So when I meet with the government and, and, and ask them, usually the conversation will go something like, James, nice to meet you. Let's talk about the data you have. Let's talk about what you're seeing. I'll lay out online classes, kind of give them like, probably 30 minutes to an hour-long overview. And then they'll say, great, uh, since we're in a SCIF, I'm going to make a call to this other program, has all this knowledge and data on stuff, and I'm going to ask them if anything you have matches what they're doing. And the answer is always no. The answer is always, they have no clue what you're talking about, and there's nothing in inventory that matches what you're describing. So, yeah, we don't know. Right? And then usually what happens after that is a deer in headlights look. I held a, held a meeting recently where there was a guy on the VTC in a classified setting,

• 42:54Speaker 01

  kind of smirking, right? I thought he was incredible. Or thinking like thinking negatively about what I was saying. Turns out he was smirking because he already has done his due diligence and says like, we have no knowledge of any of this, right? As in like, I think he may have even said, maybe this is off planet. Right? Which is quite shocking when I'm in a room with social matter experts from the government on UAP and UAP tracking and history. And the answer they give me is maybe it's off planet. And he says in a smirking manner, because like I said, there's different categories of people. And even in a room of people who are studying or trying to learn about this, there's still that that edge where there's a little bit of taboo for him to say that I think it's off planet.

• 43:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Right? So, um, and I would also offer that typically engineers and scientists are bad liars. Actually, they're not really good at keeping a straight face and talking around a topic.

• 43:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And I've purposefully affronted several of them or confronted them with some of our findings to see and measure and kind of put them in a in the hot seat to see if they have a reaction. And their action I get from them is typically very honest that they have no idea what that is. And these are people that should know about it. So, so do I think that there is misdirection and and information operations warfare type stuff happening? I do believe there is that happening. Do I think that there our government has some reverse engineering or technology? Yes, I think that is the case. But I don't think that that is necessarily tied to what we're observing in the sky.

• 44:27Jesse Michels?

  It's like the deeper you go on this, you really have to eat what I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly. And for you to have, you know, it's like the things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground are the secret science things. Is the consciousness stuff that we all kind of intuit might involve, you know, it might be the next kind of scientific paradigm. And it all fits together in this neat thing. And then also space aliens and they're from Zeta Reticula. And you're like, oh, it's easy. And in fact, all of those things could be their own disparate threads. And it's just this extremely wonky hard thing to to figure out. And the deeper you go,

• 45:09Jesse Michels?

  in some ways, the more confused you get, which is cool. I mean, that's like any, any cool subject that's generative, but uh, it's not often the disclosure I think people want. You know, they want this like neatly packaged, you know, tied up in a bow thing. And I don't, I don't know if that's ever coming. Let's talk about a guilt-free alternative to alcohol that's perfect for your Dry January or any time you want to unwind. Cornbread's Organic CBD Gummies. These gummies are an absolute lifesaver for my evening routine. They're a natural way to relax, celebrate, or wind down without the hangover. I've cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years. For a lot of you trying out Dry January or cutting back generally, it's not always easy.

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• 46:38Jesse Michels?

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• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't think that disclosure is what the common populace thinks it is. So when we talk about disclosure, we release the disclosure framework because it's our belief that, in our understanding and our desire, that when we release data in scientific studies, nobody should have to ask what that means, right? When a third party looks at our data and reaches conclusions, nobody should have to say, "Does that mean that there's aliens? Does that mean that the government knows what's going on?" Like, there should be some kind of framework that covers what that means and that can be clearly articulative. This report and this data means this. So that's why we laid out the disclosure framework.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  But I would add a twist on that, in that it's my opinion that disclosure isn't about... Aliens is not about UFOs, UAP. It's my opinion, Eric Weinstein, I believe, has said that there's secret physics. Yeah, secret physics or secret science, and I believe that that is the case.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  You know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not known?

• 47:54Speaker 03

  There certainly is materials knowledge.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Materials, well, okay, material science.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  Which involves topological physics or whatever.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  I think the government's conflicted right now. Our government. And probably several others. I think they have advanced secret physics and knowledge and science.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  I agree with you.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  That they have had probably since at least the end of World War II. And through that, science and understanding have developed new technologies. And I think that disclosure from a government perspective is about the science being released and disclosed, not about the technology. So.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  So, let me make it really simple. Let's say you're a Lockheed program manager who has a secret program with the government. And your secret program involves physics that are like nothing we have today, that anybody knows about. You're doing really crazy things for national defense against our enemies and to defend our homeland with this, with this knowledge. And you're developing new sensors, you're developing new aircraft, you're developing new submarines, whatever is you're developing, you're doing it with a physics that nobody understands. Now, let's say you've been doing that for 20 years. You're a good place in your career, you make a lot of money, you're happy, you're stable. But now the news and the public zeitgeist starts changing. And now there's agents of the government hunting for you

• 49:20Speaker 01

  because they think you're responsible for this UFO phenomenon, UAP phenomenon. They think that you somehow are using your advanced physics to do

• 49:29Speaker 01

  information operations warfare against the American populace. So they're actively hunting for you. So now you just went from a patriot who loves his family, loves his country, and is very smart in developing technology or protecting technology and science, to the boogeyman that has somebody hunting for them. And so that Lockheed engineer needs a pressure relief valve. Right? So I think we have reached the point where our government has decided that it needs to release. Knowledge about the advanced physics and advanced science, but at the same time needs to constrain that Lockheed engineer or scientist from revealing our national secrets and protecting our national defense. So I think our government's conflicted in that without saying it out loud, because by saying it, they're acknowledging that it is true.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And no one has told me this. I've arrived at this position through years of discussions. One has ever said like, hey, here's the case. I know nothing from the government. In fact, all I ever get from this during the headlights and questions, no answers.

• 50:29Jesse Michels?

  So much of this resonates with my own experience looking into this stuff.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think disclosure frankly is less about a UAP flying in the air and more about releasing the technology, the, the, the science. And how do you release the science? How does Skywatch release the science? I'll tell you, we are a private company, privately funded. We have our own technology. We have, we're developing our own technology. And as I stated in the beginning, we are rooted in and exist because of UAPs being exposed to us. Is that the government program? Was the government, is the government program to expose US, Chinese, Russian, whatever technology to, to the layman, right? With the right mindset so that they can produce science based on it to basically do disclosure of how they're doing it.

• 51:17Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, knowing that, you know, hey, as we observe propulsion technology or telemetry technology or whatever we're observing, that even if we understand how they're doing it, we're still 16 to 90 years behind them.

• 51:32Jesse Michels?

  That is mindfuck. Excuse my French. But like the idea that that's their soft disclosure of secret science is us through, you know, civilian efforts like what you're doing, private efforts, detecting what they're doing and then working back from first principles on how to build it. And maybe even building things that are emergently adjacent or new compared to what they've done over the last six years, 70 years, which they can't admit to or own up to. That is fascinating. That's very interesting.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  And that's what I believe is happening. I believe that's our role. I believe that's why when I The government, they give me no answers.

• 52:07Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  They just wanna see, hey, what are these guys gonna come up with?

• 52:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  When they poke us, the bear, or whoever it is. Um, and like I said, there's different categories.

• 52:16Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  I think there's blue, I think there's red, and I think there's other.

• 52:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  And I have an idea of which class is which, but I don't wanna share that.

• 52:22Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  But I believe that there is a mixed bag of what we're seeing.

• 52:26Jesse Michels?

  Why do you, do you feel like it's premature to share that, or why?

• 52:29Speaker 01

  I want the government to have the chance to stop me.

• 52:31Jesse Michels?

  Uh-huh.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Before I reveal.

• 52:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Secrets.

• 52:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So that's frankly why we're holding back.

• 52:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  It's not because we don't have the data or the knowledge, it's because we wanna do this responsibly.

• 52:41Jesse Michels?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  So, um, so again, disclosure is gonna be more about, you know, we're making observations right now.

• 52:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  We made observations in, in, in March and in February that revealed to us the technology in play. And what that means is, I sat with a physicist from a certain field, looking over my shoulder while I went frame by frame on one of the UAP classes that we have not revealed yet.

• 53:04Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  And that physicist was able to say, "Wow, that's the technology being used. That is how their propulsion works."

• 53:13Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  This is what the shape of the craft means.

• 53:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Right? So, no longer are we, "Oh, it's magic." Okay, I can't replicate that technology.

• 53:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  I don't understand how they're doing that in that kind of form factor, in that size and scale.

• 53:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  But no longer do I have to say, "I don't know how they're cloaking."

• 53:32Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  No longer do I have to say, "I don't know how they're propulsing." Right?

• 53:35Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Now we can understand, okay, this is why we can't see them sometimes, because perhaps they're using what we're, what, what, what we have observed.

• 53:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Right? So those observations tell us something.

• 53:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  But it doesn't give me the science and the tools to go make it and do it myself.

• 53:50Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  So that is one of the things we were doing at Skywatcher.

• 53:53Jesse Michels?

  That's still fascinating, though. I mean, can you say anything about what that scientist said about that?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  No, no, I have to leave that, I have to leave that, uh, let that go for a while.

• 54:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  But it's important to understand that part of Skywatcher is an applied physics, applied science, if you will, where you're working to understand the technology behind what we're seeing.

• 54:16Jesse Michels?

  Uh.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And really, I actually said that wrong, we're actually working to understand the science behind what we're seeing.

• 54:21Jesse Michels?

  Mm.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  So we can understand the technology. And again, let's say that that is a made in America thing, and it, you know... Some agency flew that through specifically because of what we're reporting, we're seeing, so that we can release, maybe to the world eventually, the science behind it, so that innovation can be made to move us forward as safely as we can and responsibly as we can. Like, is that the quest here? To pressure relief that project manager Lockheed, the mythical project manager Lockheed, that I don't know exists, to pressure relief them and turn them from the boogeyman into, they can keep all their technology secrets, all their advancements, while we understand the science and, like I said, we're 60 years behind.

• 55:04Jesse Michels?

  Totally. Well, something else I hope happens is I've talked to a couple of those aerospace graybeard types, and you never know, you know, what they've discovered, but you can sense that some of them, you know, are higher conviction on certain frameworks that aren't publicly acknowledged. And what I sense sometimes is that there's a, you know, a feeling of, wow, like, I feel high conviction in some of these things. I wish they were used more broadly in civil side architecture, and maybe we had this kind of regressive Cold War mindset, which doesn't even make sense now with some of these frameworks, because if China and Russia are not at parity, I will say publicly, and I'm sure fans will get pissed at me,

• 55:49Jesse Michels?

  that like, we shouldn't disclose something that is, you know, extremely dual use and like, could confer some really big warfare tactical advantage, obviously. But if they are at parity, and if there are ways to implement some of this stuff civil side, and we don't have to send civil side science off into this kind of cul-de-sac of like, not being productive because of bad frameworks, it would be great to get some of this stuff out. And I also see those graybeards at times being like, I wish I could work more for humanity, too. So I don't know if you've experienced that, or...

• 56:25Speaker 01

  So, yes.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  That is, you know, we do have a certain level of, look, we'd like to help humanity, help our country. We're very patriotic and we're very open about what we're trying to do, which is develop technology for national defense and also at the same time, if through the science can, we can discover new technology. Like, we're all about proliferating that. Like, that's responsibly. That's what we want to do. The, I think our government is constrained, right? The skies are not classified and we are seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. There's a very specific time of day when we observe UAPs. They're not there the other times of day.

• 57:08Jesse Michels?

  Can you say what time?

• 57:10Speaker 01

  I'll get, I'll skip, I'll skip that for now.

• 57:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  But the, the point there is we could be on the ground looking up at the UAPs with a camera ball and see them. We see them on radar, right? So we have three spectrums that we're seeing them on with imagery and we see them on radar. So that's four different methods that we're tracking them with. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them. I've chased probably about 15 UAPs now in the last 60 days.

• 57:38Jesse Michels?

  I wanted to ask you about this.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so when we chase them, we have never seen a UAP from the air.

• 57:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Right? Now, air-to-air intercepts are hard to do. I was not a PJ or F-16 pilot or anything Air Force, so, you know, Army, right? So like, I have zero experience.

• 57:59Jesse Michels?

  Playing catch-up.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  I know a lot of skydiving and military free fall operations, but I've never, I've never been in an aircraft with, with, with a motor trying to chase another aircraft.

• 58:08Jesse Michels?

  You have Jake on your team, so that's good.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a really good pilot, right? So, so we've chased about 15 UAPs and, and they evade us, right? But they evade us because the ground can see them evading. From the air, we've never laid eyes on them, right? We're sitting there with binoculars, sitting with S-Rear cameras, we're sitting there.

• 58:28Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that is?

• 58:30Speaker 01

  I think that they have a method to be cloaked from the air and that method does not extend to the ground. Right? And it's important to understand, okay, so we're seeing UAPs.

• 58:42Jesse Michels?

  How would you even do that? It's so wild.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  It is wild, right? We're seeing UAPs in commercial airspace, right? At the same flight levels that commercial aviation is flying at, that you cannot see from the air. So, understand, if we're in El Paso, working, and we see a UAP, you know, and I'm looking north, and in El Paso, if you look north, actually from where we're at in Sierra Blanca, the last place we were using, when we look north, all we see are airliners transiting, because everyone transits the border, right there by El Paso, just north. So, in the same airspace, we're seeing UAPs, alright? So, UAPs that the pilots cannot see.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  And I know they can't see them, because I've been probably about 200 meters from a Class 8, and the team's like, "Look out your left window, the UAP is right there", and me and the pilot, and one of my colleagues is sitting there, looking, scanning every sector.

• 59:41Jesse Michels?

  And you can't see it?

• 59:42Speaker 01

  There's nothing there.

• 59:43Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, is it, do you think, are you picking it up in the ground with normal optical sensors? With cameras, or with kind of more exotic stuff?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  So, it's the ones I described, the radar and the three bands.

• 59:55Jesse Michels?

  We should go through, yeah, so you have radar, infrared.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  So you have shortwave infrared.

• 59:59Jesse Michels?

  Shortwave infrared.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Mediumwave infrared and electro-optical. Electro-optical can see a little bit more than the human eye.

• 1:00:05Jesse Michels?

  Gotcha.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  And I believe that the reason why the electro-optical can see them, and they cannot, is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light.

• 1:00:13Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Where is it? So, the human eye, I think, is 400 and 700 nanometers is the range? So where, would this be on the?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:00:22Jesse Michels?

  The electro-optical would be like?

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  We haven't figured that out yet. We haven't figured out where in the spectrum they're visible. Like I said, we're in an operation, we're growing to the science.

• 1:00:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  So, and I would even offer to jump ahead a little bit in the Class 7s.

• 1:00:37Jesse Michels?

  Yep. But it'd probably be like 350 to 750, it's probably within the...

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's probably somewhere like that, but the Class 7s, for years, I thought, we thought, were black-bodied objects that emitted a purple and pink vapor of some kind, or reflection with white tentacles, like a jellyfish.

• 1:00:54Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Recently, in February, we saw Class 7s with the naked eye. I saw one with the naked eye. It looked like a golden chrome-looking mirror that was highly reflective with white tentacles. Then, we picked up binoculars and got high-magnification scopes on them, and they looked bright white, but reflective. So, under each observation method, we get a different return on what we're seeing. It's not consistent, right? So, it's not a black body, I don't think. I think it's white, like the Tic Tac, and like the egg, and like other things that are out there.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  But that tells you the hard problem we have here. We're trying to detect a craft that isn't consistent across bands, right? And it's very hard to image at the same distances we're seeing these. If we see a drone, which, again, we started this with drones, or a bird, we see lots of birds, or balloons, we've released balloons too, or aircraft. At the same distances, we'd be able to distinguish flight control surfaces, engines, exhaust. And we're not picking that up with the UAPs, right? So, we have a team sitting outside of the TAC when we're running these operations with scopes and cameras, and they might catch a snippet for like 2 seconds of a UAP, but that's really all they're able to see.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Unless, because UAPs typically are 5 kilometers minimum away, sometimes, you know, approximately 10,000 feet above ground level, right? Whatever that is in meters. So, they're not nearby, right? And often, when we do see them, or when we did see them with the naked eye, in the few times we have, they're very reflective. So, actually, using the sun's glint to spot them is one of the methods we use, and should help us indicate that maybe we can't see them in the naked eye. Maybe all the naked eye sees are reflections.

• 1:02:52Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's so fascinating. So interesting. Makes me think of this Carl Sagan thing where he's talking about like, you're seeing a shadow of the thing. You're not seeing the thing itself. He's saying, I think it's like a platonic solid. He's using like a tesseract example and, you know, that's just, and they're like, you know, there are, this comes up and it's very theoretical, but like holographic theories or principles. Rush even mentioned it in his congressional testimony.

• 1:03:17Speaker 05

  The framework that I'm familiar with, for example, is something called the holographic principle. Both, it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics. And that is, if you want to imagine 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface, that's the holographic principle. So you can be projected, quasi-projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It's a scientific trope that you can actually cross, literally, as far as I understand, but there's probably guys with PhDs that we could probably argue about that.

• 1:03:55Jesse Michels?

  Class 3. What are we looking at?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Class 3 is the blob.

• 1:03:58Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  So it's a, I describe it as pepto bismol colored cloud.

• 1:04:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  And in the center of the cloud is like a filament that looks golden, almost like a flame. Looks like it's a cylinder, maybe has corners, really hard to tell. And this object, like the class 1 and the class 2, does fly in a stable trajectory. But while it's flying in that trajectory, it's vibrating vertically and horizontally, very fast. So it moves from point to point instantaneously as it moves along a stable trajectory. And when I say stable trajectory, maybe it's, maybe its flight path is 80 knots.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Right? But on imagery and on radar, it is bouncing all over in a, perhaps like a, like a tube almost, almost like it's in a subway. And you took like the Tasmanian devil and threw him the subway and said, "Go downtown." And he's gonna bounce all over the subway while he moves down that tubular tunnel there. That's kind of what we're seeing in the sky.

• 1:04:58Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Right? So as the Tasmanian devil bounces all over the tunnel, he's still moving at a certain speed, but point to point, he's all over the map.

• 1:05:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  But within a constrained area.

• 1:05:08Jesse Michels?

  It's fast.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  So the class 3...

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  We've never seen one up close.

• 1:05:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  We don't know why it vibrates and how it's vibrating. But for sure, it is vibrating because we have it on imagery and on radar showing it vibrating. And that does meet the threshold of several of the five characteristics, or maybe six characteristics of UAPs. And that it's instantaneous movement from point to point that, again, there's no contrail. There's no visible propulsion. It's just moving, you know? And we've had to ask ourselves, and it's still a theory, is, is everything in the sky, you know, a holographic projection? Is this all just, just the government or a government messing with our heads, making us think we're seeing something? And all it is is plasmoids from space-based lasers.

• 1:05:56Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Making shapes and they're bouncing them across the sky to throw us off or make us think a thing. I accept that that could be a possibility, right? Because what we're looking at with the Class 3 defies any known physics, any known logic of how it's maneuvering. So is it really there? Is it, like I said, a plasmoid with lasers? Or is there actually a physical craft there moving across the sky?

• 1:06:20Jesse Michels?

  They'd have to be, if the government were doing that, they'd have to know where you guys are. And then like be trying to spoof you or something, which I guess is possible. But, you know, I don't know. That's, that's fascinating. Do any of these classes, are they attributed more to the psionic assets calling them in? Versus the machine-based? Like, is it like the case, just an example, the jellyfish only shows up with the machine-based thing? Or the psionic asset only attracts, you know, this particular class? Is that, can you, can you do those sort of attributions? Do you have data against that?

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  So we have four and a half years of data with no psionics involved at all.

• 1:07:01Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Right. So.

• 1:07:02Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So that was all machine-based?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We were running these government events. Nobody there was doing anything psionic. And if they did, they wouldn't have their clearance and they couldn't be there anyway, right? Like, the government probably wouldn't allow them to be present. And I probably wouldn't have hired them onto my team to come help run the event if they were doing those things. So, no, four and a half years has no psionics whatsoever. We have eight classes with that. That said, once we started doing this in a very open mindset of, while I'm not a believer, I'm completely open. Like, I've described several obscure theories that could hold true, whether it's a holographic. Projection, whether it's off planet, on planet, all these different theories, we have to, like, I don't have to believe all of them, but I have to accept that they could be true.

• 1:07:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  We have to be completely open minded here.

• 1:07:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  To include on the psionic side.

• 1:07:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  And what I would offer is on the psionic side, I have had personal observations of things that the psionic team has done that appear to validate that their methods work.

• 1:08:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  One example is, um, uh, in August, uh, one of our principal psionic assets, Jordan, apparently called in a craft and it, it could be an egg, I don't know what it is. And he's wearing a covering on his face. He's under a patio. He came to see the sky. Uh, where I'm looking now, looking at him and he's having these experiences. And then Fred Baker was out on the back patio, watching the sky while he hears Jordan freaking out down there on the, beneath the porch down there. And, and Fred independently is like, oh, there it is. Because Jordan said where to look in the sky and Fred looked and saw an object.

• 1:08:43Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  And videoed it. We didn't have the, all of our equipment. It's very expensive to procure. So we had rudimentary equipment at that event. And well, he caught rudimentary observations, right? So, but Jordan called it out, literally said, this is where it's at in the sky. This is what's happening. There it is. And there's some other things to go with that. But point being, okay, how does that, how do you reconcile that?

• 1:09:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  You reconcile the entire event.

• 1:09:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Right? Um, fast forward to February. Well, we ran an event in January without, with the equipment, with, with no dog whistle.

• 1:09:16Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  And we got zero results.

• 1:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Right? So we have run events 24 hours a day. We've run events without the dog whistle, but the same technology and play.

• 1:09:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  And we don't get UAPs during those times.

• 1:09:27Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  It's only a very narrow part of the day. So in February, up till February, I'd never seen a UAP with a naked eye, ever.

• 1:09:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Wow. Wow.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  In five years of doing it, it was always through, through a sensor.

• 1:09:39Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Um, in February, we actually had the, for, for the first time, the dog whistle paired with psionic assets.

• 1:09:47Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  And while we can't say definitively this. The cyanic assets were responsible for the results we got.

• 1:09:53Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  For the first time, they approximated close enough to see them.

• 1:09:56Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  They'd never done that before. Now, there's too many variables, right? We have to repeat this ad nauseam until we can say with some kind of scientific rigor that cause and effect or.

• 1:10:06Jesse Michels?

  Correlation causation.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. We also introduced more chaos. For four and a half years, we had no helicopter. I had no Jake Barber. I had nobody to fly me up and go look. And part of our frustration with the government was we were underfunded. Uh, when we were funded by the government for these events. And even when we were funded explicitly by certain parties to go look at UAPs, we were still underfunded there. So we didn't have the capacity to go get a helicopter or find Jake and go fly up to them. And, and because we're not Skinwalker Ranch, we are mobile, we are nomadic.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  And our end state is that we would like to make contact with or retrieve some of this material, right? So you're not going to do that by standing on the ground, watching it and being static. Right? So we want to fly to them and observe them. So we introduced the helicopter activity and that introduced more chaos into the event. Right? So it's just too many variables to understand.

• 1:10:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Cause and effect with that many variables being changed.

• 1:11:00Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Right? So.

• 1:11:01Jesse Michels?

  And one time when you were up in a helicopter, the helicopter was sort of frozen, like it couldn't continue on, is that, is that right?

• 1:11:08Speaker 06

  We sent the Hilo out to intercept the Tic Tac, but the first attempt failed because our radar was being jammed by the Class 7 jellyfish.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Where did it, where were we in the sky the first time you saw that? That was when you were seven kilometers or so out to the northwest, three, four, zero at that spot that we went to? And we kept trying to climb and we just, it wouldn't let us.

• 1:11:29Speaker 04

  Our helicopter launched and about a half mile out, the helicopter stopped moving. Engine's running, blades are turning, but it would not go forward, it would not go up, it would not go left or right, it was stuck there.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  So we've had several interactions with UAPs in the air.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  First, the, the most prominent UAP we see are the jellyfish, the Class 7. When we chased them, they evade us. We have on video us flying towards the Class 7 and it changing its flight path, going into the wind, going perpendicular to the wind and then elevating away from us. You know, we're moving at 80 plus knots and a little bird and, and. Watching the class sevens with video and with radar, we know it's airspeed and maybe it's thirty or forty knots. We should be able to air to air intercept that all day long, but they consistently outrun us and escape us. So, um, so we've had that interaction. Then yes, with a Tic Tac. And I'll, I'll talk through kind of what happened with the Tic Tac because it's actually very interesting.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  We had observed the class sevens fly through our radar beam and approximate our team repeatedly over four or five days. I believe it was four days.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  The, on the fourth day, the class seven, it was actually very interesting. We had nobody up on, out, out, up on the hill outside of the talk. It was a barren hilltop. The helicopter wasn't there. On the fourth day, the class seven came and hovered over us for about five minutes. Alright, now,

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  that's never happened before and it hovered at about eight hundred meters over us. So we could see it with the naked eye for the first time. As soon as we started coming outside the talk to look at it and grabbing other cameras to try and image it, it started moving away. Alright, now understand, the class seven has some kind of inherent, um, apparently inherent, uh, microwave energy that it's emitting, right? And that energy interferes with our cabling between our systems, we believe. So, we've had, we've noticed an effect that when the class seven is present, we lose connection to our sensors. Um, the, the, the high end sensors that were remoted into.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  So, our primary sensor didn't collect on that class seven while it was in a hover or, uh, uh, you know, over us. Once at the part of the area, our sensors turned back on and we were able to actually image it. And I would offer, we've never had that happen before. We never had one approximate and we never had our sensors go down. So, we have all, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera gear inside the talk, right? And so here's the team scrambling like, like my, our primary sensor just quit working. And now we're like, alright, let's grab the cameras and go image it. So everyone's in a hurry trying to do that. And, and poor Rory is out there just shooting all these videos and is, you know, taking, uh, uh, photos like, oh, this is amazing and talking through it.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  And then we look at the camera and there's no SD card in it. And we realized, because they were our secondary systems, like we'd never seen one with these cameras. Right? They were there for emergency use and we hadn't prepped them. Right?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Sometimes through those errors, you know, they're costly, but you learn, right? Now we are prepared for our secondary systems to become primary in case they approximate again. But we had to learn that the hard way. Right? So we've seen the class sevens fly through our airspace routinely and probe apparently our active systems, our emanating systems. And so on the, each day it seemed to get more, I would say aggressive, but I don't know that it's aggressive. It just got more interesting. And so maybe the first day it flies over, over top of what our radar bubble should be. Then maybe the next day it flies over top, maybe a little bit lower and then deviates. Maybe it's come from the west and it heads north. And then, and then later in the day it comes in from the west and heads south. As in it's measuring our radar beam, our radar field.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Um, so that's the impression we got. And then for the first time in February, we saw two jellyfish fly together in the radar. And they offset from us equally. So six kilometers north and south of us and they flew right past us, right? So we're like, well, that's pretty cool. I've never seen them in pairs before.

• 1:15:45Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  And they're obviously interested in us in the middle and they're putting themselves in beam of our systems. So then on-

• 1:15:52Jesse Michels?

  Do they resemble the jellyfish that Jeremy Corbell revealed a couple of years ago?

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  No, not, not to us. That looks like a shriveled up version of what we have.

• 1:16:00Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Right? I would say, you know, our, our jellyfish are about two to three meters across in the head.

• 1:16:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Um, I think they look like an aspirin pill.

• 1:16:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  I don't know. Um, and, um, the tentacles are about five meters long.

• 1:16:12Jesse Michels?

  And I think the tentacles in your case, if I'm visualizing it correctly, are a little more dynamically moving than the, if you look at the Jeremy Corbell thing, it's, I think it's thermal imaging and they look like- Kind of stuck together and like they're not like they they're not moving the tentacles.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Well, so yeah, the tentacles seem to flow a little bit more and that's actually gets into like, I hate the word debunk debunker debunking because it starts with the premise of we're going to prove you're a liar or prove you're are you are incorrect instead of I'm going to consume what you're saying. I'm going to make a fair and unbiased estimation of the validity of that information. And then release those results. So debunking to me is a adversarial relationship, you know, and I think that there are paid debunkers out there who are too quick to come in and body slam and present falsehoods because they don't know the whole story.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  And they're assuming they do. And they're assuming some kind of malintent on our side of hey, these guys must be wires. These guys some kind of secret government program. None of it makes any sense at the end of the day. But the jellyfish, which very interesting is if you take a balloon and release it into the wind and watch it, which we have done. The string will dangle below the balloon. And why is that? Because the balloon relative to the wind is blowing in the wind. You might get some oscillation of some turbulence or some different winds at different levels as it transitions through those winds. But for the most part, you're going to look at a balloon and you're going to see basically like a lollipop, right? A straight line coming down from the strings.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  If you take a helicopter and you conduct operations like Jake does with a long line. And you put that long line under weight and you lift it up and start flying 60, 80, 100 knots, right? The long line with load is going to be maybe a 45 degree angle off the bottom of the helicopter. It'd be straight because it's under it's under load, but it's blowing back from the relative wind pushing it back. If you take that same helicopter and release the payload from it, but keep the long line and then fly into the wind, something very interesting happens. Yeah, actually, the long line actually forms a U shape. And the U is in the direction of travel. And that's because of the air pressure on that long line builds up in the middle of it.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  The surface area becomes under enough pressure that actually bends the line in the direction of flight so that as you're flying into the wind, it's like a U or a C flying, like a Pac-Man flying into the wind, right? What's interesting about the Class 7s is we've released images of them with the tentacles sometimes being straight. And then the same craft, when we know it's flying perpendicular to the wind in a swimming motion, the long line, the tentacles are actually in a Pac-Man, you know, shape. Indicating that it is flying into the wind or it's flying faster than the wind. It's not floating with the wind. So as these debunkers try to come out with their theories, sometimes it's sad that

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  they haven't done their basic analysis and research. And they're calling things balloons that, you know, maybe one day we'll find out it's a balloon, but it's not your run-of-the-mill Mylar bought at Walmart. If it is balloon, it's a hybrid balloon that can lift, apparently, and maneuver against and perpendicular to the wind at will and ascend and descend. So these are properties that normally balloons can't do. So am I saying it's not a balloon? No. But if it is a balloon, it has to be hybrid. At least with our current understanding of physics. And there's something special about it.

• 1:19:56Jesse Michels?

  Right. Some secret physics balloon at least. That minimum. Yeah.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  In proximity to it, it will say, don't come any higher. Because that was when I told you guys elevate, right?

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  That's fascinating. We were called out to intercept an object that was found on

• 1:20:12Speaker 07

  Radar. We went to the location it was supposed to be at. We circled a couple of times and were requested to climb another thousand feet. The instrumentation started to bounce and the collective basically was frozen.

• 1:20:24Jesse Michels?

  And so you tried to, you, you guys flew up and it was a class seven, right? That you were chasing with the helicopter?

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

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• 1:21:00Jesse Michels?

  And then there was, it was like this, it was really interesting in this last video you guys released. There was like this, almost like barrier. You couldn't get beyond or something?

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  No. So, so to get back to the story. So we had class sevens on, on the fourth day, one hovered over us and we went to bed that night thinking, what's going to happen next? Like, what happens? Like, okay, so they've done everything that you could do to indicate we're interested in you. They've flown and beamed. They must know whoever's operating these, that we can see them. They must know that. We're on the hill looking at them. They, like, for sure they must know. When we fly a helicopter towards them, they evade it. So they know that there's, there's some kind of action force in the vicinity of them, right? Some kind of action element, us. So, on the fifth day, I went to bed thinking, what, what's more aggressive? Is it going to come down and land? Is it going to blow us up? Is it going to hit us with energy? Like, is it going to send us a text message?

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  You're like, what's going to happen with this UAP that's more aggressive than what it did so far? What should we expect? And so that night, Jordan, our Sianic lead, if you will, came up to me and Alex like, hey, tomorrow we're going to see, you know, a conflict in the sky. We're going to have, uh, different UAPs are going to come in and there's going to be-

• 1:22:09Jesse Michels?

  He sensed that.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  He said that.

• 1:22:12Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  And he said it to me and Alex. And I've since talked to Jordan. I said, Jordan, never do that to me again, ever. Uh huh. If you ever come up to me again, bring a damn camera. Uh huh. With a date time group in the screen. Uh huh. Record you telling us this prediction. Uh huh. And then mail it to somebody. Uh huh. Outside of our group so that there's proof that it transited to a third party. Uh huh. Because this prediction came true. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Literally, that's what happened on the fifth day. Uh, we had jellyfish at a distance. Mm hmm. We had, uh, extreme, I will just say, uh, interference with our systems. Mm hmm. Uh, typically, we'd never seen jellyfish interfere with us in the last several years. Mm hmm. Uh, and, uh, up to this day, the, the four days preceding it, we had had mild interference with our systems. Mm.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Disconnecting from the primary sensors, uh, when the jellyfish were in vicinity. But on the fifth day, the interference was constant for two hours. And because it's constant, we can't see the jellyfish. Our primary sensor does not, doesn't connect. We can't use it. So, um,

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  we started looking to try and figure out what's going on. That's when we discovered the class two Tic Tac and the Manta Ray in the sky. Hmm. Hiding behind the train. That's right. Between us and the jellyfish. That's so fast. Right? And what's really, really crazy here is

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  there have been two instances of UAP reacting seemingly to our intent. Uh huh. So around 2003, we were running an event and we had the opportunity to bring, for the government event, we brought an energy weapon with us. Mm hmm. Um, and so we had this energy weapon up on the hill and we're doing things with it for the government project. Microwave? Yeah, something like that. Okay. And, um,

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  we saw a class six coming through our, our event. Mm hmm. Right? And this was extracurricular in our own time. And somebody from another group was like, hey, let's aim that thing at that UAP and see what happens if we energize it. So we're like, sure, let's just see what happens. Mm hmm. Right? So this person went to, um, to move, it was a, there was no electronic gimbal. It was like a manual antenna. You had to Mm hmm. Feed horn. He had to turn towards Mm hmm. UAP. So he's like, goes out there, a couple, you know, call it sixty, seventy feet from our operating area. Runs out there and starts turning it towards it. Mm hmm. Mid-turn, before he could actually turn it to the UAP. Mm. The UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Whoa.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Right, and that energy weapon turned our systems off, as in OFF, as in blank screens.

• 1:24:48Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  It was working and then it was in the off position.

• 1:24:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  And it happened to systems that were not connected to the same network.

• 1:24:54Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  And that were not used together.

• 1:24:57Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  So I think there were three separate systems that turned off. Alright, so did the UAP know that we are going to try to send energy towards it? High energy microwave towards it?

• 1:25:11Jesse Michels?

  Seems like it.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  And did it react? I think so.

• 1:25:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  This never happened since, because we've never tried that again.

• 1:25:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  And we can't try it now commercially, because that's highly illegal. No one should do that in the United States. You'll go to jail, like that's not a laughing matter, the FCC will get you.

• 1:25:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Or the FAA, or whoever it is.

• 1:25:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  You can't just go do that, so.

• 1:25:31Jesse Michels?

  Does that concern you at all, just that, that interaction? Does that, does that make you think twice about? Because you hear rumors of directed energy being shot at UAP and I always, I don't know, I feel, I feel conflicted about that. It feels like a possibly dangerous, you know, territory. You guys are, you're mostly doing just psionic based, or not psionic based stuff, but trying to get them to land? Or are you doing any of the shooting?

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  No, no, so Skywatcher is a team, we are not aggressive, we are not trying to go to war, have, you know, destroy American or Chinese or Russian equipment in the sky.

• 1:26:07Jesse Michels?

  Creating an intergalactic battle.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, or have a war with NHI, or whatever the hell it is. Like, we're not trying to do that, we don't want that pain, we don't want that responsibility.

• 1:26:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  We are approaching this very scientifically peacefully.

• 1:26:20Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  And so those activities are activities that we want to do, and if those are done, the government can go do that. We have no interest in harming or destroying any of this material, or craft, or beings. Like, that's not our interest at all. It's quite the opposite, actually. And our desire is that one lands, and that is, with a psionic team, what we're trying to do is get one to land peacefully, right? You know, we don't need to harm, or kill, or maim, or destroy, we want to observe, collect, and understand. So that was the first time that we had UAPs react to our action or intentions, we believe. The second time was with the Tic Tac in February.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  I saw a manta ray, was watching the manta ray and then it disappeared again. The manta ray and the Tic Tac were hiding from our primary sensor. They approached from the one avenue of approach we couldn't see for miles and miles. And they hid behind terrain and they used a terrain to mask their presence from our sensors. They were being taken out anyway by the, we believe the jellyfish. So I sat there for probably 20 minutes and watched a manta ray in the sky. It looks kinda like a trash bag that never descends or just an amorphous shape that's rolling and tumbling constantly. But, and, and then also a Tic Tac right next to it. So they were both in the sky, kinda about the same place.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  About 800 meters elevation, about 800 meters away. We're watching them, manta ray for about 20 and then the Tic Tac for about five. So at this time, we did have the helicopter up on the hill and we had a lot of security. Because again, this is day five of anomalous weird things happening that never happened before. So we are expecting something interesting. Jordan predicted it and it's happening as he said.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  So I'm like, hey, I wanna get in the helicopter and go see the Tic Tac. Let's go chase it. So like what else, what other data can we, can we get now? We can't get radar, we can't get the high-end imagery because those systems are off, right? They're not connectable. This is the day I told you where our secondary systems weren't ready to go. So we're looking at them with binoculars and scopes and I'm like, well, let's go get more data. So I turned to run down the hills, about 200 meter run to get to the helicopter. I get 10 steps and the Tic Tac starts flying away. So it sat there for over 25, 30 minutes while we observed the manta ray and the Tic Tac. And then we watched, once that was gone, we watched only the Tic Tac. And then it just so happens that as I turn radar run down the helicopter and on the radar,

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  hey, start the helicopter up. Deliberately to go fly to it, that's when it decides it apart. So did it know that I was coming to it? Did it understand my intention to fly up to it and pay it a visit?

• 1:29:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:29:02Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Does that, does that, when you say that or the, the energy weapon anecdote? Do you ever worry that it's just this crazy game of cat and mouse? Where the cat can mind read the mouse or whatever? And you guys are the mouse, you know, trying to sense these things? And it's like, if they can show that level of kind of, you know, prediction of intent, you know? Is it, will, will we ever get to, you know, clear resolution on these things?

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, right? And

• 1:29:37Jesse Michels?

  Honest answer.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really hard to say, like, like it is a cat and mouse game. It feels like it does feel like. How many times do you have to fly advanced technology and beam of a radar to know what it, how it works?

• 1:29:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Right? Like, how many years do you have to do it in a row? Right? So like, clearly they are presenting as if they are measuring our capabilities and responses. But if there's an intelligent entity doing this, do they not understand already?

• 1:30:05Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  So clearly, in my opinion, it's less about our technology and more about our reaction.

• 1:30:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Right? So they know we can see them. They know it because that week, uh, on the fifth day, we chased like seven or 10 UAPs before that.

• 1:30:20Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  So it knew we were going to chase it, right? It must have known whoever's controlling it knew we were going to chase it. The question is, why would they put themselves in beam and put themselves in that vulnerable? Apparently a vulnerable position repeatedly. So as you get into the philosophical here, it's really hard to understand and see through. Okay. Um, why are they putting themselves in this apparently a vulnerable position? Right? To what end? Do, you know, do they want us to fly to it? Do they want us to interact with it? I believe so. Um, and

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  Are they aware of our intentions? I don't know because our intentions have not always been pure. Right? Like I said, somebody aimed an energy weapon at one of these things.

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  And it took action.

• 1:31:01Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Right? So is it, you know, how does that fit? I really wish we could sit and have a philosophical discussion with a philosopher and say like, let's walk the dog on each possibility. Because there might be enough data to understand that.

• 1:31:16Jesse Michels?

  Do the psionic assets, are they able to overlay some of possible information? Like you see Jordan predicting, oh, the next day, there's going to be a war in the sky and it's accurate. To me, that would, and I know some of his story and out of respect for him, I'll let him come out with that whenever. But, uh, you know, does that make you think, oh, a lot of this stuff? He probably, you know, believes philosophically about this stuff might be right as well. Like, you know, increases the probability that, you know, uh, the psionic assets are probably correct about maybe other things. Do they have any sort of metaphysical worldview around this? That is possibly informative or illustrative of what you're looking at or?

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  We haven't figured that out yet. Right? We purposefully maintain a separation from the psionic team.

• 1:32:02Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting. It's like a double blind or something.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, precisely. Like we're up on a hill with our system, using the dog whistle. We are not telling the psionic team. We have tried this in the past, but typically we do not tell a psionic team there's something inbound. They have no idea what's happening up on the hill. They can't see it. They can't hear it. They don't know.

• 1:32:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Right? And, and then we're documenting their call outs and their descriptions and their efforts.

• 1:32:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  We've done that two or three events in a row.

• 1:32:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Probably morph that and change that under guidance of our science team.

• 1:32:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  To kind of understand, hey, if, if they know nothing and we don't really know what they're doing, which is also the case, then we can't really, we can't, to our knowledge, make an effect and we can't pollute the other's minds with what's going to happen.

• 1:32:45Jesse Michels?

  Smart way to do it. Yeah. They must have, I mean, I've, I've, I've met a few of them. And it seems like they have some pretty interesting backgrounds in past history where, and I think this is going to come out probably increasingly in the next year or two. There are these kind of gifted and talented education programs in the United States that recruited often children to be kind of, you know, high-sci assets in various cases, probably for various use cases. Maybe part of the remote viewing stuff that Hal put off and Russell Targ started, you know, back in the day, Stargate, Grill Flame, all of that. And then maybe some UAP-related stuff as well. What do you think about their stories?

• 1:33:24Jesse Michels?

  Is that, do you think that that is a widespread program in the US where they're recruiting kind of these younger people? Stranger things, is that a real show?

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  I have to ask, it's a really good question, man. Talking to some of these folks, their stories are very believable. Some of them have more than a story, they have data, they have documents, they have places and names and dates that go with their stories. So I'd offer that there's, that data supports their story to a degree. It doesn't prove or disprove anything psionic, but it does show a programmatic nature of something occurring. Now, is that programmatic nature due to their own condition or their own self? Or is it due to a third-party instituting something with them for a purpose? And I don't know that there's enough data to know that yet.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Perhaps somebody has compiled that data and can show that disparity or that proofs, or actually not disparity, but parity between the stories to say like there is a systematic program. I would offer, a lot of times you have to lean on Occam's razor. You have to go with like, are people really that evil? Is our government really that evil? Are they really that? That's subversive of the American way.

• 1:34:44Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  I think there can be limited cases like that, but I think they're limited.

• 1:34:49Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  And I think when you look at this again through Occam's razor, you have to lean on, no, probably not. And if there is, it's very, very rare or done with.

• 1:34:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I think, I think there is a there there. I think some of these programs did exist. And then it's hard for me to believe it was extremely widespread because we just have more of this stuff coming out. But we also, we did experiment with parapsychology. I do think you get into, you know, deeper levels of government or aerospace. And I do think people believe that the mind matter duality thing is not as simple as, you know, academia sort of presents it.

• 1:35:30Jesse Michels?

  Class four, what are we looking at there?

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Class four is the orb.

• 1:35:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  We've only seen that a couple of years in a row when we did see the class four. We're doing certain activities for the government that we can't do commercially. And we're only able to do them for a limited amount of time with the government. So I can't describe those activities. I can just say that they were extraordinary and different. And when we did those activities is when we noted the class four.

• 1:35:55Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  We think it's about two, three years apart across. We've only seen it in the infrared, short waves and medium wave infrared. That could be due to atmospheric conditions, dust in the air, or other reasons. We've never had them on radar that we know of. Again, we have a lot of data to call through. And it's expensive and hard to analyze. We're working on that.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  So we relied on, look, there's an object. It's below the cloud deck. It's not returning a laser rangefinder return. It's moving against the wind. And what we observed was they, two of them flew in together on either side of our valley and then camped for about four hours, three and a half hours.

• 1:36:38Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  While actually class ones did something, again, extraordinary and different.

• 1:36:43Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  And then after the class ones were done, they flew out together. Right? So I don't think celestial bodies could represent like that or present like that, excuse me. I don't think, you know, I don't know of any craft that are, that can, you know, we know the cloud deck wasn't that high that day. In our estimation, any drone or helicopter would have been hearable and visible under those conditions. And these were right here in the sky, just above us, 45 degree angle off each horizon and elevated. And they moved in tandem, right, as a pair. So, again, that goes against, like celestial bodies, that goes against any known technology. And so we believe that that is a class of UAP. It could be another class that we've never seen do that activity before,

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  but, you know, we have limited data, right? And we state as much.

• 1:37:33Jesse Michels?

  Which class did you add with the psionic assets, which you just started working with?

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  The egg.

• 1:37:37Jesse Michels?

  The egg, the class nine. Okay, fascinating. Well, that dovetails with Jake's story, where he said that he was, when he retrieved the egg in, yeah, I think it was the mid 2000s on the range in California, there were some psionic assets present, trying to call the thing in. So, that's fascinating.

• 1:38:00Jesse Michels?

  Class five, what are we looking at?

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Class five is the manta ray. It looks like a black body object that might have perhaps vents on top of it that emanate some kind of, I'll just call it plasma, not necessarily a plasma, although I do believe plasma is seen in conjunction with UAPs often, but we don't know that, right? So, emanate something that looks like plasma-ish. And it tumbles and rotates, again, not too dissimilar from a balloon, but it does things that balloons don't do, like blink out of visibility, or fly against the wind, does other things. So, we've seen the class five only twice, I guess three times now. So, we have more observations recently

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  in 2025. I think the last time we saw them was like 23. And we don't know a whole lot about it. We have it on radar, we have it on all the bands of imagery, we don't have any signal for it. It's probably about two and a half meters in diameter. And it just seems to fly through. It doesn't really stop and smell the music.

• 1:39:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Smell the roses, excuse me. It doesn't really hang out, it just kind of moves through and then leaves.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Until the event with the Tic Tac where it hovered in the sky.

• 1:39:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:39:21Jesse Michels?

  That was so fascinating. It almost sounds like the manta and the Tic Tac were like allied against the jellyfish. Like there was this.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  Was definitely that.

• 1:39:29Jesse Michels?

  There's some so interesting like war of the world or something.

• 1:39:37Jesse Michels?

  Okay, class six. What are we looking at?

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  So the class six is what we call the bright star.

• 1:39:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  It vibrates a lot.

• 1:39:43Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  And it it it does things to our equipment, whether it's shutting off our equipment or interferes in other ways with our equipment.

• 1:39:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  To modify what we think we're seeing.

• 1:39:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Right? So.

• 1:39:58Jesse Michels?

  So there's some signature management.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  There is absolutely some signature management with the classics.

• 1:40:02Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  So it doesn't like us to track it.

• 1:40:05Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Right? It doesn't like us to put eyes on it, we think.

• 1:40:08Jesse Michels?

  That sounds like possibly human, but I don't know.

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  Like all things are possible here.

• 1:40:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  But the classics vibrates oscillates very fast, so fast that if you're looking at it under camera, you think you see three of them.

• 1:40:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  One unit of measure of the craft to the left and to the right. Really, it's one vibrating. And you know that because it comes out of the out of the oscillation and stops. And then you see it's one craft and then it'll turn it back on and it moves so fast that our system thinks it's a propeller.

• 1:40:42Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  So when it when it oscillates, it's a propeller, it thinks, interprets it as.

• 1:40:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  And then it'll stop oscillating and then just kind of keep continue flying and then the radar will indicate that it's not a propeller anymore.

• 1:40:54Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  Right? So.

• 1:40:56Speaker 00

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• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  It does change brightness.

• 1:41:29Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  It'll seem to like get very energetic, much like the class three blob does.

• 1:41:33Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  It'll it'll emanate more light.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  As it vibrates really fast and then when the light kind of dies down, it stops vibrating as fast until it stops vibrating completely. And then it'll go back, almost like a cycle, almost like somebody's starting a process and that process,

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  that chain continues until it's exhausted and then it returns to its old state. That's kind of what the impression is of what we're seeing with the Class 6.

• 1:41:58Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating.

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  Class 8 is the Hornet. We've only seen a Class 8 a couple of times.

• 1:42:08Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  Yep, kind of like the Class 5, it's kind of elusive, we can see it a whole bunch.

• 1:42:14Jesse Michels?

  Anything specific that you did around that time where the Hornet entered or?

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  No, but the Hornet was the last UAPI I chased.

• 1:42:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  In March.

• 1:42:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And that was, you were telling me on the phone, you got a little discombobulated or something?

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  No, that was actually the Tic Tac.

• 1:42:32Jesse Michels?

  That was the Tic Tac, the story you told.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  The Class 8 is the one we flew within about 200 meters and couldn't see it.

• 1:42:36Jesse Michels?

  Okay, and so what happened when you chased the Hornet, Class 8?

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  It continued on its flight path, didn't deviate, didn't change. But we just couldn't see it and document it.

• 1:42:46Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  Right, so it just continued on a very slow, it was only moving like 20 knots.

• 1:42:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Super, super slow, agonizing. So slow, we were just doing orbits, trying like, getting, you know, chasing it in orbits, trying to get aligned to it so we could visualize as we went past it, we just couldn't.

• 1:43:02Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Couldn't ever see it.

• 1:43:03Jesse Michels?

  Class 9?

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  The Class 9 is the Egg.

• 1:43:06Jesse Michels?

  That's the Egg. So, this is so fascinating, is this the hope? Because I, you know, I spoke to Jake, I think it was in January, and we had a really interesting discussion. He said, he expressed, he exuded a lot of confidence. He said, "In six months, we're gonna get this thing to land."

• 1:43:23Speaker 04

  If all things go well, before, I'm trying not to say a date, but within the first half of 2025, we hope to do a demonstration and invite key members of the public from institutions

• 1:43:39Speaker 04

  and demonstrate this and maybe even get something to the ground. And that's gonna answer a lot of questions. That would be absolutely.

• 1:43:47Jesse Michels?

  And I don't know, maybe that's Elon Musk's style timeline that's a little aggressive or something, but is it? Can you guys get the egg to land? Presumably, I would assume that's the hope because of his past experience. I look at some of these other classes and to me, there's such a gap between like the, I don't know, the manta ray or hornet or some of these things and like, you know, a concrete object like on the ground that you can like reverse engineer and fly. So is the hope the egg? And can you guys bring it down pretty quickly, you know, through peaceful psionic means?

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  I have no expectation.

• 1:44:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  I literally don't know.

• 1:44:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  Like, is the egg a real craft?

• 1:44:29Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Is the thing we imaged with our rudimentary imaging system at the time even there?

• 1:44:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Right? If it is there, can Jordan or someone else control it?

• 1:44:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  If they can't control it, are they able to tell it to land and have it land? I would offer in known history that has never happened.

• 1:44:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Right? And if it has happened, it's in a closed program that nobody knows about.

• 1:44:52Jesse Michels?

  Well, according to Jake, it's happened.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  Well, yes.

• 1:44:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  So show me the money.

• 1:44:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  I'm open-minded.

• 1:44:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  I'm hopeful. I would love for that to happen.

• 1:45:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  That'd be perfect.

• 1:45:02Jesse Michels?

  That'd be wild.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Will it happen?

• 1:45:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Will it happen in six months? I have no idea.

• 1:45:06Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Would I like it to, of course I would.

• 1:45:08Jesse Michels?

  Is that the one you're holding out hope for as far as some sort of retrieval of actual material? Or are there others that you feel might be able to derive material from?

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Any of these crafts appear to have material and technology that we don't understand.

• 1:45:27Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:28Speaker 01

  So if any of them were to land or crash, that would be very interesting.

• 1:45:32Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  I can say-

• 1:45:33Jesse Michels?

  Some could be non-physical though. Some are some sort of plasma ball thing, right?

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  I accept that that could be the case.

• 1:45:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  Some of them might be holograms or plasmoids or things that if they land, there's molten, the sand turns to glass or metal or whatever.

• 1:45:48Jesse Michels?

  Right, sure.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:45:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Sure, why not? I believe we've seen four UAPs crash over the years.

• 1:45:54Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:57Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:45:57Jesse Michels?

  You've seen them crash?

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  We believe, and I say believe for a lot of reasons. We've seen three Class Ones.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Uh, when we were doing, you know, in 2023, when we did something special for the government, uh, the UAPs behaved differently. And, uh, we saw about 200 UAPs in a day over a four hour period. And they were all, almost all class ones at the time. And they were actually coming, instead of just flying through our airspace, they're coming from directly over us as if from space. So they would come straight down, ingress, and then, and then they would egress out low level away from us. And they did it in ones and twos and threes at a time. We saw about 200 of them total, 240.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  The class ones that are doing that, that's different, right? So as they were doing that, we saw three of them that instead of coming in in the low level egressing, came in at an angle from directly overhead and just continued as if to the ground.

• 1:46:55Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  And they went below the, the ridge lines. And we never saw them come up.

• 1:47:03Jesse Michels?

  Did you go look for them?

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's actually really bad timing. That year we had, uh, really epic rainfall. That afternoon, after the show was over, it rained for like two days straight.

• 1:47:17Jesse Michels?

  Oh, man.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Um, I had to wait about a week and then I took a whole crew, um, for a, uh, hunt for a cartel drone that had crashed.

• 1:47:25Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  And we were out there looking for probably six or eight hours. We found nothing.

• 1:47:29Jesse Michels?

  Nothing.

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  And again, what are we looking for? I'm looking for a glass crystal ball. I'm looking for a cube. I'm looking for carcass.

• 1:47:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  Like, what am I looking, a tetra regent? Like, what am I looking for right here?

• 1:47:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  No idea.

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  And, and some of these deserts are extremely rugged. And at the time I didn't have a helicopter.

• 1:47:44Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Um, and then in 2024, um, we saw a class eight that started 3,500 meters above us as it came through and it soared.

• 1:47:56Jesse Michels?

  This is the Hornet.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:47:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  And then finished it sorty, just a couple hundred meters over the ground, again, right at terrain level. So, um, we went out this January and flew for probably two hours hour looking for anything. Again, what are we looking for? I don't know. Extremely rugged and difficult terrain. So we think we've seen them crash without us, to our knowledge, doing anything to cause that. But we have yet to find any wreckage or find anything to show like there is something here.

• 1:48:24Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating. Do you, what do you think? Sorry, I keep saying it so bad, but it is just like, it's just so interesting.

• 1:48:31Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that the government could be red teaming you guys at all? I mean, you know, you were in California near Palmdale, and then you were also in Findlay in Texas. And those are near, you know, pretty sensitive training facilities, test sites, that sort of thing. Do you think that any of the prime aerospace contractors are throwing stuff at you to kind of mess with your reconnaissance systems or mess with your detection systems or?

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  So I would offer, my opinion is no. And the reason why is the craft we are seeing are conducting explicitly illegal operations of the device. They're invisible. There's no markers. They don't have ADS-B. They don't have AIS. They don't have anything onboard to show their presence. Also, they're flying adjacent to or in commercial air corridors. Right? Where all commercial traffic flies. And they're flying at flight levels. We see them at flight level 180. We see them, I presume, higher than 180. We know higher, but we can't measure it because it's too high for a radar to reach. So

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  whoever is doing this, if it is domestic, like they need to be, they need to, you know, get their affairs in order before they get caught. Because if it is domestic, then they're breaking the law, frankly. You know, feloniously.

• 1:49:52Jesse Michels?

  Would you have a, say a McWest? We just talked about debunkers. McWest or somebody like that out on the range to try to stress test, you know, what you're doing?

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're willing to work with certain people. Frankly, personally, like I have no time for debunkers. If someone starts saying, I want to debunk, I just kind of get angry. I kind of want to like lash out, like, like, just be open-minded. Just listen, take off your lenses of opinions and just open your mind and accept. Let us, let us give you, share some knowledge so we can learn together. Should we, should we invite out a McWest or whatever? Maybe that could happen. But frankly, like, I have no interest in him.

• 1:50:32Jesse Michels?

  But you would take a Scientist out there who doesn't necessarily have a, you know, an a priori interest in UFOs.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Because understand the difference. One entity is hostile and extremely opinionated. And it has a preconceived notion of what you're saying. And the other entity is open minded and willing to understand what you're saying before they formulate their opinion.

• 1:50:57Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  And so the one, the hostile one, like again, I treat hostility with hostility. I have no desire to work with, talk to, interact, or face with them because bad things will happen. And it's bad for everybody, right? So I'd rather focus on the people who actually are open minded. Have the intelligence necessary to understand the problem and aren't simpletons.

• 1:51:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:51:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. What's your take on the Jersey drone situation? We were just talking about that before we started rolling. And it still feels so frustratingly inconclusive. You have the White House saying that they were FAA researched drones after Trump, I think, told his, you know, special assistant, go look into this. And that was just such an unsatisfying answer for so many, you know, residents of Jersey. What do you think was happening?

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  I think one of our adversaries has the ability to fly with impunity and operate in our airspace. And we are helpless to stop it.

• 1:51:57Jesse Michels?

  That's insane. That's really scary. And any reason to believe that, that you can discuss publicly?

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  I think that Langley Air Force Base, based on news articles, was probably done by China. And

• 1:52:15Jesse Michels?

  That was 17 days of just completely unperturbed incursions.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And I think that, you know, we know that the HAB, the balloon that flew through was from China. So there's only one entity that has a past performance, to my knowledge, of flying in our airspace with apparent impunity, with us not doing anything to stop it, and that's China. So why wouldn't you naturally arrive at a sustained intrusion in our airspace? Why wouldn't you assume it's China until proven otherwise? If you have two explicit examples, and very high likelihood being China, or we know it's China. So the question we have to ask ourselves is, are the craft we're seeing Group 3 drones? Are they UAPs operated by China? And

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  What are the permutations thereof? Like, what does that mean if it is or isn't a UAE?

• 1:53:07Jesse Michels?

  Can they carry payloads if they're flying with exotic flight principles? I mean, that's a really scary possibility.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  And what is the purpose? If it is a China or a Russia, whoever it is, to what end? Why would they do that to the American populace? Why would they continue when they know we're looking? Is it to show our incompetence? Is it to derail our national security apparatus and say, like, "Look how incompetent you are. We can do what we want"? Is it because...

• 1:53:35Jesse Michels?

  That's why I have trouble believing it's China or Russia. It's just so... I mean, what a flex, right? Like, if you're doing that over residential neighborhoods in Jersey, that's kind of an act of war. That's serious.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  I think that's why our government's constrained. Right? Because on the one hand, our government, whose job is to protect the nation, can't come out and be incompetent.

• 1:53:58Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Like, it cannot be done.

• 1:53:59Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  They have to be able to protect us. I think in the 60 Minutes article or episode they did on this,

• 1:54:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  they spoke with the NORAD commander, and he said something that was very telling. He said that we have allowed technology, the threat, to grow, and we don't have technology to match. Something along those lines, basically meaning that maybe whoever is doing this has a capability that we have not

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  grown defensive technology enough to counter.

• 1:54:31Jesse Michels?

  It's freaky. Well, then you have the Trump statement at the time where he goes, "Biden knows what... They know what this is. It's coming from a garage. It's very strange. We know where the garage is." And that makes me think NHI. Our military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. I can't imagine it's... The enemy because it was the enemy that blasted out even if they were late that blasted.

• 1:55:01Jesse Michels?

  Something strange is going on for some reason. They don't want to tell the people and they should. And then you had that, I think sheriff, the local sheriff in New Jersey saying that he thought he saw them come out of the water and, you know, trans medium is this, you know, important observable of UAPs and, uh, you know, there are rumors of underwater bases and that sort of thing. So that made me think maybe NHI, but. It's, well, I mean, it's also, I would talk about this with Jake. It could be a mix, you know? You could use the presence of NHI, UAP to opportunistically flood the zone. And then it's extremely hard to figure out what's what.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I, I'm open to all concepts here. I personally, my opinion is that it's probably adversary. It's probably China.

• 1:55:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  But, um,

• 1:55:46Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  There's so many unknowns, like, like, um, how, how do you figure it out and tell the tale?

• 1:55:53Jesse Michels?

  I hope at the highest level, we've figured it out, whether it's adversary or NHI. I hope, I hope somebody knows, cause.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I hope they do too. I like to have faith in my government and believe that they are doing the right thing. I know I was in the government for a long time. I know a lot of government officials.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Generally very, very good people, patriots who love their country and want nothing but the best for all of us. So. I hope, I really hope that they do have this figured out and that they have a capability in that we can rest easy and not worry about it. But there's the potential that some of that might not be the case.

• 1:56:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  That maybe they haven't figured it out. So.

• 1:56:32Jesse Michels?

  And five years from today, do you have any hopes, dreams, expectations for Skywatcher?

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would like to have Skywatcher as part of the Golden Dome. I would like to be proactive on the UAP problem. We have a technology to detect UAPs. Uh, we're growing that technology. That technology should be everywhere. Um, not because I'm a capitalist and want to make a lot of money, of course. Of course, most people want to make money and be independently wealthy. But for the national security implications of here's a phenomena, here's a thing on our airspace moving with impunity through our air corridors and nobody knows anything about it. So if we deploy the right sensors and the right mix, we can become masters of our airspace and become air aware, if you will, of what's going on. So that's why we started Skywatcher, that's why we're developing the technology.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  And in five years, it'd be wonderful if it's deployed. And then now we can have a body of knowledge and data on this phenomena, on this threat, on this instance of what's occurring and be able to make educated decisions at that point.

• 1:57:37Jesse Michels?

  Have you seen the movie Arrival?

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57:40Jesse Michels?

  Do you ever think like, you know, a lot of what you guys are doing is, you know, kind of initiating contact in some ways? And is it worth getting a symbologist on staff or, you know, some cultural anthropologist or something? Or is it, is it worth thinking about how, you know, if we are interacting with them eventually in a more intimate way than like, you know, just sensors? You know, making sure that that, those first interactions are friendly and good to the extent that, you know, that might dictate, you know, future relations?

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  I mean, possibly.

• 1:58:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think the Skywatcher team is first contact, right? If our government

• 1:58:22Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  has been interacting with these things for decades, that's first contact.

• 1:58:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Second, third or 90th, right?

• 1:58:29Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  In the last, we're just the first public.

• 1:58:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, you hear rumors around that stuff where it's like, I don't know, I have no idea how much weight to put in this, but it's like the aliens or the NHI are coming back for their stuff and they're not happy that, you know, the way the government has interacted with the material and that sort of thing. It's, you know, to weaponize this stuff and it's not to create, you know, civil side propulsion or whatever. And that could totally be a bunch of mushy brained woo woo UFO people, you know, just saying, you know, of which I can be one sometimes or whatever, you know, just engaging in wishful thinking. But, um, yeah, do you lend any credence to any of that stuff or?

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  I think, I think there's a lot of smoke. Right? I don't know where the fire is at. Right? It's really, really hard to see through. Again, I said before that I think that there, there are elements of our government and other governments who are using information operations warfare on this topic. I don't know their motives. I don't know to what end. But I think it's in our face that that's happening. Look at the second episode and look at Reddit and how it blew up with all these apparent bots talking a lot of negative trash about Skywatcher and balloons. Like, somebody paid money for that. Like, is Mick West working for somebody? Is somebody paying him money?

• 1:59:51Jesse Michels?

  Good question.

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  Are these paid actors?

• 1:59:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Are those paid actors employing different technology to subvert knowledge or modify knowledge? Right? And to what end? So I do think that there's evidence there. That evidence could be studied. Again, that costs money to do. It costs a lot of money to go and research a bunch of Reddit users and show it's a botnet. And like, it's doable. It's just expensive, right?

• 2:00:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  So, but it's my belief that those things are happening. Maybe it's not America. Maybe it's our adversaries who are controlling some of those messages

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  for their own motives and means. But as a civilian, it's really hard to say why. But the what, I think, is fairly obvious that that is happening.

• 2:00:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. James Fowler, this is an honor, man. I appreciate your time. This is fascinating and I'm curious to see where all of your efforts go.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  Thanks, Jesse.

• 2:00:44Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  Appreciate it, man.

• 2:00:45Jesse Michels?

  All right.