Even the Kardashians have insecurities! Reinvent your identity, with Chris Appleton

Why do we change our hair when we want to start over? Celebrity hair stylist Chris Appleton knows that when someone sits in his chair, he has their future confidence in his hands. In this chat with Fearne, Chris explains that everyone from the Kardashians to cancer patients have opened up to him about their insecurities, and he’s seen the profound impact that looking more like yourself on the outside can have on how you feel about yourself on the inside. He’s also fascinated by the self-limiting beliefs people have about who they are. Think you’re not classy enough for a sleek bob? Not cool enough to dye your hair? Chris says think again! Chris has dealt with a lot of his own shame and fears too. He was bullied at school, struggled to acknowledge his sexuality, and had huge imposter syndrome when he first arrived in Hollywood, so has lots of thoughts on finding your true self again. Plus, Chris gives Fearne a little consultation, and he reckons she can go much bolder with her hair... Chris’ book, Your Roots Don’t Define You, is out now. CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains frank conversation about suicidal ideation, so take care while listening. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Afua Hirsch https://pod.fo/e/2b12ae Caroline Hirons https://pod.fo/e/291dee Olivia Atwood https://pod.fo/e/273edd Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Before we start, this episode contains some chat you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes for more details. Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that finds ways to reclaim your confidence. Today, I'm chatting to Chris Appleton.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  We don't always look in the mirror and see ourselves and go, is this truly who I am or who I decided to be, or was I kind of told to be this way? And then when you open up those doors of reinvention, whether it's Mrs. Jones comes in the salon, a cancer patient that lost her hair, or a celebrity like Kim or J Lo, when you truly see people and you help them see that they're not defined by their past and they can reinvent themselves at any age or any stage in their life, it's really powerful.

• 1:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God, I am excited about this one. Okay, so I think we've all got pretty strong feelings about our hair. It's such a huge part of our identity and I can look back over the years. I've got to laugh because when I look back at old pictures of myself, I have got some absolute stinkers in terms of haircuts and colours. I don't even know where to start. Let me just run through some of my highlights or lowlights.

• 1:49Fearne Cotton?

  Once I tried to get a haircut that I thought would look like one of the John Frieda twins and I ended up looking like Rod Stewart, no offence Rod, but I was about 19, so that's not the look I was going for. One time I then copied this really cool DJ that I loved and I dyed my hair black at the back and white at the front and I looked like a sort of terrified badger. Another time I dyed it bright red, um, another time I cut it all off really, really short and I don't have the face for that. Um, I've cut fringes on several occasions with deep regrets seconds afterwards. Um, I've had a perm, I've had a perm with a straight fringe. I think my natural inclination is to try and change my hair because I either

• 2:31Fearne Cotton?

  feel bored of myself or bored of my life and I want to be a different person. And although I think doing something drastic to your hair or just changing things up can be a great starting point for other change. I've always done it in a really drastic, extreme way, which I'm now slightly more cautious of. Saying that, I am thinking about dying my hair pink again. It might, it might happen soon. Um, but I think there's a lot of emotion tied into hair. And actually, sometimes when you lob off all your hair is exactly what you need. You just need to like, get that old stuff off and crack on with like, less to carry, less hair on your head. But I think it's something that we all feel is much more

• 3:14Fearne Cotton?

  than just our image. You know, it's, it just feels deeper than that. At the moment, I'm sat here with more blonder hair than I've had in a long time. Do you know why? Because Chris told me to do it and I did it and I feel fucking fantastic. Chris is the celebrity hairdresser and creative mastermind behind iconic moments like Kim Kardashian's wet look, Ariana Grande's signature ponytail, and J Lo's dramatic bouncy Super Bowl curls. I mean, they are some of the most famous hair looks out there. He's now written a book called Your Roots Don't Define You. It's a brilliant book. Transform your look, transform your life, create your own comeback. Now, we had this chat at the end of last year when

• 3:58Fearne Cotton?

  Chris was in the UK for the Fashion Awards. He looked sensational. Did you see the pictures? He had like a tuxedo on with no shirt and my god, he looked hot. Um, it was just the most sensational look. Now this chat, we go all over the shop and it gets deep and raw. We talk about imposter syndrome because Chris grew up in Leicester and moved to Hollywood on a bit of a whim and sort of faked it until he made it. You know what I'm saying? And I was deeply inspired by that part of the story. We also talk about how, you know, when you go to the hairdresser, you get into chats with the person doing your hair.

• 4:39Fearne Cotton?

  Hairdressers are a little bit like a therapist, untrained in that area of course, but you do end up opening up to your hairdressers at times. He also talks about working with cancer patients and how that has informed a lot of what he does today. And Chris's own backstory, if you don't know much about it, is incredible, full of huge change and moments of deep pain that he is very willing to talk about openly.

• 5:10Speaker 03

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• 5:39Speaker 04

  Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric and on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  Hot flashes, rage crying, forgetting words mid-senten. Yeah, we know.

• 6:45Speaker 06

  Menopause is a lot. Midi Health gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's join M I D I dot com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 7:09Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 7:33Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, Chris.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Hello, babes.

• 7:34Fearne Cotton?

  How are you?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Back in London town.

• 7:36Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we know because my God, you looked sensational at the Fashion Awards the other night.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 7:42Fearne Cotton?

  Sorry, what the hell?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I said. It was, yeah, it was fun. It's nice to be able to have fun with fashion.

• 7:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  It was so nice to be back in England, though.

• 7:52Fearne Cotton?

  Did you feel powerful walking up those stairs in that tux without the shirt?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I always get a little anxious before a red carpet just because the internet's a fun place to be. You know, and you know, you never know what you're going to get. I was just happy to be home, actually. I was happy to be here in England. And it feels really special to be able to come back and do those kind of, you know, fun events like that. And celebrate British fashion and you just have a good night. It was great. I love being back, actually. It's really nice because for a long time I couldn't come back, which I guess we can talk about that later. But for a long time I felt very, I would actually have a panic attack like when I, when I'd come home.

• 8:30Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  So to come back and actually be very grounded and very happy and very peaceful. And I actually just brought a house here, which is really like complete my journey of healing, I believe.

• 8:40Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Because if you had asked me 10 years ago, I would say I would never come back.

• 8:45Fearne Cotton?

  So I'm fascinated by this. I mean, I've read your book, so I, I can see the gist of what you're suggesting here. But you had this moment in life where you. Fled to the States. It was Christmas Eve. You didn't really have much of a plan. You were doing it on a whim.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 9:00Fearne Cotton?

  What catalyzed that? What was the feeling of like, I've got to get the fuck out of here?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you'd have asked me at the time, I would say it was about further in my career. Um, I'd had the opportunity to, I mean, I started doing hair when I was thirteen. I was young. I did my mom's hair at nine. I was always mesmerized by like the power of transformation. So that was really something that I loved. And it was, guess it's survival technique as well, because at school I was pretty bullied, um, because I did hair. So that automatically then made me different because A, I had a job at thirteen, B, I did hair. And there wasn't really many hairstylists that were not women, or if it was a man, it was gay. So I was very quickly labelled as gay. So I, before I even thought about sexuality particularly, um, I was labelled as something that I perceived as bad, because it wasn't as though people were saying it friendly. It was like, you're gay, you know, it was like a bad thing.

• 9:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  So I think I very quickly kind of thought, you know, I, I, I, well, I'm not that, you know, and I kind of blocked that out. Um, and I really just went into survival mode. And I was like, I need to kind of show people that I'm, you know, not just this label. So I think going through my career, I was very eager to be good at it, because I felt not very good at school. I was dyslexic, so I was also kind of labelled as the stupid one. Now there's so much more knowledge out there and we know that's not the case. But at the time, I felt like I had something to prove. So I think for me, going through hair was a way of, I guess it was survival, because I could feel power from it. I could make people look and feel their best and that made me feel great. That was like a superpower to me.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  So then cut to working through the industry. I started to work with celebrities and then I got an email one day from J Lo's team. It was really random. I was just on a shoot and I remember there was this email and I just ignored it.

• 10:40Fearne Cotton?

  Well, thinking this is a prank.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  I just thought it was not real. I said, I, I, I think it's complete scam. I was like, that's not gonna happen. And then I got another email saying, you know, J Lo would love for you to do a hair for this new Vegas show. And I remember thinking to myself, how does J Lo know who I am? But I guess it was the beginning of social media and Instagram when I was posting my work. At the time, I was working with Rita Ora and I was doing a lot of different looks on her hair and I guess people noticed. And I kind of thought to myself, well, Well, maybe I could do more. Maybe I could go there and do this. Maybe I could go to America. And, you know, I was always inspired by these like Hollywood stars back in the day. And I was like, maybe I could have a go at doing it. So I moved to America and um the big dream. I guess a lot of people go to Hollywood with a dream and um yeah, nothing really happened.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  I didn't work for like three or four months and then eventually I got a call. I got a call from Christine Aguilera's team for The Voice, which I was so excited about. I was like, yes, I got, you know, you get that excitement and I was like, but then the fear crept in. And I was like, Christine Aguilera, she's amazing. You know, she's like an icon. So I remember I was on my way to The Voice, I was gonna do a hair and I just had this overwhelming like fear of, I guess, imposter syndrome. I felt like, how am I gonna be able to do this? She's Christine Aguilera, I'm me from Leicester in England. Like, she's gonna see right through me. But I kind of put on a brave face and I spoke to the mother of my kids, Kate, who we're still best friends now. We've had a great relationship.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  And she said to me, Chris, look, if you don't make this work, you're gonna have to come home because I'm a dad, you know, uh finances. And it it it was a case of that, it was make it or break it. Yeah. So I turned up to The Voice in the three hours of glam, which is a good amount of time. And I was like, great, I can do this. Had a few hairstyles in my head. And an hour went by and the makeup artist went in. So I sat outside the trailer, kind of just looking around, trying to not, you know, let the fear take over. Two hours went by and I'm thinking, well, I don't, I was honestly just thinking like, maybe she's, maybe she's had her hair done and I'm just gonna finish it off. You know, maybe it'll just be like, cause I didn't really know how it worked. So the last twenty minutes before the live show of The Voice, they were like, oh, you can go in the trailer now. You've got twenty minutes?

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Twenty minutes. And I'm like, well, she's probably got, her hair's probably good, right? Cause well, what else can it be at twenty minutes? I'm like, I don't know, can't need much. So I went in and um, well, it wasn't ready. It was ready to be done. And she's like, what do you wanna do? And I was like. All I wanna do is a three hours of glam, but I don't have it. So I was like, you know, I had all these wigs prepped, had all these hair pieces. And I was like, this would be good. She had like bleached hair and I was like, this could be cool, like to do like a ICA look and like a classic Hollywood style. And she's like, oh, I don't like wigs. And I was like, oh, yeah, of course. Cool. Like, why would you do, why would you like anything I've got to do, honestly, like, and I was like, she can see me. She can see little Chris. She can see

• 13:29Speaker 02

  just this guy with a dream. She can see that guy that was bullied at school. And I felt this fear like come into my stomach and it it just went through my body and it like spreads and it's kind of paralyzing. And I just had this, I had this moment. And it really was a defining point in my career. And it was like I had this voice and I had Kate's voice in my head. And I remember her saying, if you don't make this work, you're gonna have to go home. And I kind of just snapped out of me and my insecurities and my fears. And I kind of went into adult Chris and came back to myself. And I was like, look, you know, I didn't come this far to come this far. Like, I'm gonna do this for my kids. I'm gonna do this for the people that have supported me. I'm gonna do this for myself. And I was like, you know, you've never tried on one of my wigs. And I put it on and I

• 14:11Speaker 02

  and she was like, oh, so I like it. And the stylist was like, I think it's good. So we had like 10 minutes and I put it on and off she went on to the live show. And I remember thinking, I was thinking like, it looks good. I think it looks good. I think it looks good. And then she came off stage and she looked over at me and she was like, everyone likes your wig.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  And that was in that moment, I knew that I'd done it. You know, I was like, yes, I was gonna be okay. And then I worked with her for a long time after that and it kind of rolled on. But I will say, I think in that moment, if I had have given into that fear, that insecurity, the shame, I wouldn't be here now. I wouldn't have had my career in America. And I think my life would have been very different. And sometimes a defining moment like that can change your whole life. And it really did. It sounds kind of, people might be listening thinking, oh, whatever. But honestly, like, the opportunities were slim. And I got this opportunity and I nearly let it slip because circumstance, because my own insecurities and fears. And, you know, I think that's why I've put together this book, Your Roots Don't Define You, because what people will find in there is it's basically a blueprint.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Into reinvention, finding an identity, cutting away the roots that you were given as a child, which is realistically how most of us got to where we are. Like, we don't always look in the mirror and see ourselves. Like, I think we look in the mirror about ten times, fifteen times a day. Not many people actually stop and look. You glance and you see that thing looking back at you, you always see.

• 15:38Fearne Cotton?

  And you critique what you see.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Totally, all the negative voices. Yeah, but a lot of people don't stop and go, is this enough? Is this truly who I am or who I decided to be? Or was I kind of told to be this way? You know, like as a kid, we had these things in our head, like, you know, you have to have bangs because your forehead's big. Or, you know, you don't suit long hair, or you don't suit blonde hair, or you only suit blonde hair. And, you know, interestingly, like, when you're in a chair as a stylist, like, the stylist's chair is kind of like this place where you kind of let go. And a lot of, like, people talk about your hairstylist being a therapist.

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you have deep chats.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  You do. And you, I think a lot of people are surprised about how much they open up.

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Because I think it's the time where you look in the, you stop and you're looking, you are looking in the mirror. And most of the time it's those negative, like, oh my god, these bags. Got wrinkles. Oh my god, I've got so many grays. Because, you know, normally we just glance, but this is the time where you actually look. And then I think if you have a good relationship with your stylist, it's a time where you kind of open up to maybe something a little different. And I'd say to people like, you know, well, you know, who's your, who have you always inspired to look like? And they say, well, you know, I've always wanted to be blonde, but I know I can't do that. And I'd always be fascinated by why people would say they can't do that. And I'd say, well, why is that? And they're like, well, I don't, I was just told I couldn't. And then when you open up those doors of reinvention, and when you open up those doors of like new ways,

• 16:57Speaker 02

  people, it's kind of quite addictive. And once you see it, you can't not see it. And I think that's the secret about my book and the people I've worked with, whether it's Mrs. Jones that comes in the salon, a cancer patient that lost her hair, or a celebrity like Kim or J Lo. Like, when you truly see people and you help them, I guess, see that they're not defined by their past and they can reinvent themselves at any age or any stage in their life, it's really powerful.

• 17:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but and also you've done it. And I think that pivotal moment for you is so key, especially somewhere like Los Angeles where I worked there back in the day in my twenties, and you can't lack in confidence. It's not a place where that's going to fly. Maybe in the UK you can be kind of quiet and shy and maybe people find that endearing. In LA. You have to sell yourself, put yourself out there.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:43Fearne Cotton?

  And that requires a level of self-belief. And I think even though you experienced imposter syndrome, which is probably the most normal reaction to an environment like that, you've got to have a little bit of self-belief underneath it to even suggest for Christina Aguilera to try a wig.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:59Fearne Cotton?

  When do you think that started to really kick in? This kind of feeling of, I reckon I can go to LA and I am gonna stay there and I am gonna make this work.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  I think for me, it wasn't like a conscious decision. I was doing it more through, I think, fear-based. I think now where I am in my life now, I'm the most grounded, settled, happiest I've ever been, truly authentically myself. I think for a long time, because of what I experienced as a kid, being bullied and hiding, being gay, not knowing, but you know, then coming out as being gay, I really struggled with that and the shame I felt from that and then running away from that. And I think part of, you know, to answer your question earlier, I think a lot of it, I felt moving to America was for my career, but I think a lot of it as I was running. I was just running the fuck away from that person. I did not wanna be Chris who was gay. I wanted to run. I didn't wanna be it.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  If I could have cut it out of me, I would have and I couldn't, so I ran. And I think I was running for a long time. And I think moving to America helped me redefine myself, re-identify myself, because I could look in the mirror without all of the baggage and the shame and I could start to see myself. And I think when I started to do that and when I let go of all of these old kind of ideas of myself and the shame, I will say, I think my whole life changed, my career changed, my relationships changed, finances changed. And it sounds maybe a little cheesy, but we all hold on to so much baggage that is dragging us down and we don't know.

• 19:26Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  And I think that's why I've been successful in my job, because when people sit in my chair, sometimes I help them see some of that and help them cut the roots.

• 19:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  And you know, redefine themselves. And like I said, that's what people are gonna find in this book, ways. And there's even tasks in there that people can go through to actually help identify, you know, where are the holes in the bucket? What's missing in their life and how to kind of fill it? And not necessarily like run away from your roots, but just retell them and start again.

• 19:54Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's so interesting looking at that notion of I'm on the run, because I've, I think sometimes I still am.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:02Fearne Cotton?

  But I'm conscious of it.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 20:04Fearne Cotton?

  I can look back at younger versions of myself on the telly back in the day and go, oh my god. Too loud, too enthusiastic, or I'll think, oh, I'm so stupid or foolish. We can all be horrible to ourselves and we pick out, we don't look at any of the positives.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:19Fearne Cotton?

  And I've at times thought, right, if I read more books, if I, I didn't go to university, so I've got this insecurity that I'm not smart enough. If I keep reading, keep reading, keep learning, interview people, be better at interviewing people, then maybe that version of me will just die. Like she'll just be gone. And actually, that, you can never do that for a start. That older version of you is always there. And actually, there's some amazing qualities in those younger versions of ourselves. That we also wipe away and we forget about. And I sometimes think, oh, I'd like to have some of her enthusiasm back. Or some of that optimism that I perhaps used to have.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 20:53Fearne Cotton?

  Making friends with that old version of yourself is so important. When you look back at young Chris now, do you feel just compassion?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Um, I think in healing, there was a lot of like going back to the younger version of myself. Because like I say, I used to, when I used to come home, I, I remember being in the car coming back from Heathrow. And I, I remember crying, like, and I had like a panic attack. I, I felt so afraid I'd been back. Like I just wanted to get back to America. I was like, I can't be here. I can't go back to that. Like the shame and the, and the weights, I felt them like come back on me. And I think a lot of what I had to do is go back to my younger self and be there for myself. I mean, if you, if you think about the, the things you say to yourself, like you were saying, like, oh, I was stupid or I was loud or I was. You wouldn't ever say that to like your child.

• 21:42Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  You know, because you, you, as a, as a dad, like I just want to support them. I want to lift them up. I want to make them feel good. And that's what they need as a parent. And I think I had to learn to parent myself a little bit and go back to that little boy. And I remember there's this, is it, I remember it's, it's so silly, but I was at the window, I was like six years old and I was looking out. And, you know, England, it was a little grey and a little rainy. And I remember feeling like, there must be more and there must be more than this. Because I didn't really feel understood. I felt different to my brothers. I felt different to my sisters. I don't really think my parents got me because of the dyslexia and like I was doing hair. And they were supportive, but it wasn't necessarily like their understanding of, you know, the way they were brought up. And I think going back to that little boy and kind of just saying maybe what I needed to hear at the time, which was like,

• 22:27Speaker 02

  you're okay, like you're enough, you know, and being kind to myself. And once you see that little child in yourself, it will change those voices. Because even if they do start, you'll recognise you're doing that thing to yourself. You're like, mm. That's not good. Like, come on, like, be kind. I'm actually doing not a bad job. I'm doing okay and you can kind of self-soothe a little bit. Which sounds quite deep, but it was, it did make a big difference to me.

• 22:49Fearne Cotton?

  It's so important.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Instead of running away from him, I, I, I brought him in and, and, and actually gave him what he always needed.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, just a big hug.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  I was actually abusing myself at that point, you know, and I think a lot of people are guilty of like abusing themselves and they don't know it.

• 23:01Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And, and, and like, if you think about yourself as that little child inside, like, you just would never speak to a child like that.

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  No, being mean to yourself is completely normal. Like, we're all like, oh yeah, we all talk shit about ourselves. Whereas being celebratory or patting yourself on the back is seen as like, oh, get you, who do you think you are? It's like, that is so fucked up, that that's our, just general psychology is that we're completely normalizing being an asshole to ourselves.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 24:57Speaker 06

  Hot flashes, rage crying, forgetting words mid-sent-ten. Yeah, we know. Menopause is a lot. Midi Health gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's join M I D I dot com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 25:30Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I found in the book, your, your childhood stories. I, I knew enough about you. I mean, I'm like the biggest Kardashian fan, so I've, I've seen your face a lot.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:38Fearne Cotton?

  But I did not know about your childhood. I didn't know a lot of your story and it's fascinating. I mean, we can go right back to looking actually at your mum's story, which

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:48Fearne Cotton?

  Your mum had a horrendous experience in childhood that I'm sure has informed who she is as a person, how you were raised. Can you talk to us a bit about that?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. I mean, um, like when we all come from something, my mum, when she was 10, her mum and dad got murdered. And she didn't have parents. They didn't, no one even told them they're dead. They read it on the front of a newspaper and they got put into some, you know, foster care home and then transferred to some horror. I mean, she had a horrible experience growing up. It wasn't, she didn't even know where her parents were buried. She still doesn't. Um, and you know, she was a result of that. She met my dad when my dad was a kid. His mum put him in a home when he was like five and started a new family. So they both had very traumatic upbringings. They got together when they were 16, they've been together their whole lives. And you know, they've done an amazing job, but they carried like their traumas. And you don't realise that you, you inherit them as well.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  And you know, part of growth and what people will find in this book is it gives you, it gives you the techniques to be able to see them for what they are and how they're affecting your relationships, why you choose the relationships you're in. Whilst maybe you always see the same results in the relationships, whether it works or doesn't work and friendships, or even the job you do. It affects so much of your life and I think it's just what was needed. I mean, maybe what people see from me as well is this kind of like social media, like glamorous kind of lifestyle, working with like, you know, famous people and we only post the best versions of ourself. I'll be really honest with you, Fern. I think the whole of my Instagram was a lie. And that was just me putting out a facade of being the best version of myself.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  It wasn't true and authentic. And I think part of writing this book is it is really raw and gritty. And it says a lot more about me because how can I expect other people to wanna grow if I can't really show my shame and my guilt and my darkest side. I think that makes it much more relatable.

• 27:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  And I think it's, so there's lots of stories, personal stories.

• 27:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  About when I've been, you know, completely drowning in shame. And in very dark places in my life and how I got out of that. And the tools that helped me get out of that and how I found like reinvention.

• 27:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Possible at any age.

• 28:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  You know, and even going back to like Kris Jenner and the Kardashians, like that's why, you know, I love what she's doing because at no age, should you ever just be defined and think, well, that's enough. You know, she's had this whole new, she's had her face done and she's even.

• 28:14Fearne Cotton?

  She looks fucking fabulous.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  It's so fun, right?

• 28:16Fearne Cotton?

  I spent, I reckon I lost four hours last week looking at the pictures from her 70th birthday.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:22Fearne Cotton?

  I couldn't get enough. I couldn't stop. I was like, there's gotta be more that I haven't seen. That whole thing, I love that she's just living her best life.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  You know what's so nice about it as well is she's just having fun doing it.

• 28:32Fearne Cotton?

  She's having a great time.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  She's not taking it too seriously, you know, she's like, oh, this is great. And even like changing that short pixie haircut that she had for so long, which was kind of iconic. And we did this talk recently and she actually got a bit emotional and she's like, because we're in Paris, it was the robbery trial for Kim. And Kim was like, can you do my mom while you're there? I was like, yeah, I'd actually never done Kris's hair. I'd known her for years, but never done her hair. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. So she sat down in my chair at like, I think it was like six in the morning because she went before Kim. And in fact, she was already sitting in the chair, Kris Jenner, she's already sitting waiting. She's like.

• 29:06Fearne Cotton?

  Of course she is. She's got shit to do.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm five minutes early and she was fucking half an hour. Anyway, she sat down and she's like, just blow it out. And I was like, oh no, I was like, babe, come on. I'm not gonna blow out, blow out your hair. Come on, like, we're gonna talk about like, what have you always wanted to try? And, you know, something different. And she was like, well, you know, she was open to, again, no one would, probably people would just normally blow her hair out. And we actually did like a longer look, I think it was like a wet look bob and. Or we pinned it up or something and did like an updo and see in the chair, you know, she's like, initially it was a little uncomfortable because she's Chris Jenner, she knows what she knows. She sits down, she, you know, and she's having this sort of new look and uncomfortableness is,

• 29:52Speaker 02

  it's important to feel that way, it's natural, you know, I think usually with being uncomfortable, there's change and change is great. But by the end, she was like, you know, she was looking in the mirror and she's like checking herself out and she felt good. She felt good, you know, she felt cute and she, you know, and it kind of like, she'd had her face done and then the hair just kind of finished it and completed it and it, I mean, now she's changing it all the time. It's pinned up and she's got bangs and she's got, you know, she's having so much fun with it. And she got a bit emotional when we were talking at this event because she said, you know, you saw something different in me and you brought that out. And she's like, I'm so grateful that you did that. And you know, that's Chris Jenner. I mean, she's amazing, like fabulous woman that is, you know, you think that would have been done anyway, but I think a lot of people feel that way.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  A lot of people sit in a chair and we all just go, oh, same as usual.

• 30:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  You know, and for someone to say, do we want to do the same as usual?

• 30:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  And if you do, that's fine. But if you maybe have thought, well, is there a bit of a better version?

• 30:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Is there, maybe when I was 20 it was working, but maybe now I'm 30, like, or maybe now I've just gone through this breakup or maybe now I'm, you know, just got this new job. I, I want to portray a slightly different image and that's okay and it's great. And I just don't think people necessarily realise the power of hair. And the book really isn't just about like your appearance. It's, it's really an internal thing. It's,

• 31:12Fearne Cotton?

  Hair is deeper than that. I'm sorry. Like we could all go, oh, it's just hair. It's not just hair. We've all had a shit haircut and felt terrible about ourselves.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Oh my God, how bad do you feel?

• 31:22Fearne Cotton?

  I've had some absolute corkers, but equally, we have had haircuts when we walk out and we're like, I can take over the world. I am ready.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Everyone's looking at me, even though they're probably not.

• 31:32Fearne Cotton?

  They're not, but you walk like you're in a film down the street afterwards. When someone comes to you, and I know we're jumping all over the gaff here, but I've just got a lot of things to say.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, keep going.

• 31:40Fearne Cotton?

  When someone comes to you and they say like the opposite of Chris, they're like, do the thing. Do like, let's just change shit up. I want to do, whether it's a fringe or I want to do a short bob from long hair, I want to dye it a different colour. What do you read into that? What, what are people saying to you with that move?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Do you know what? Usually those times are like a breakup.

• 32:00Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  The breakup haircut. You gotta be careful there because everyone's a little emotional.

• 32:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  And we're running.

• 32:09Fearne Cotton?

  Do you wanna be fresh out of a bad relationship and have a shit fringe?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:14Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Double, yeah, it's like, just cut, cut my hair off. No, I mean, I think in those moments, like, I always embrace it. But just steer it in the right direction and making sure that you're making change for good and not just change for change. Because hair is such a big part of, you know, identity and it, and it can change completely the way you feel about your life. And when you look in the mirror and how you feel about yourself, I really realised that. I felt like I always knew it. Like when I used to do my mum's hair when I was like nine, we were very poor and we didn't have a lot. And I wanted to somehow try and make my mum not look like a working mum of five, you know, and like, she didn't have any glamour at all. It was pretty rough. And I used to do hair and make her look like, I wanted her to look like a Hollywood star. So I'd say, mum, look in the mirror. And I remember like her shoulders would go back and she'd stand a little taller.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  And I remember like this, I was like, this is my superpower. But I think going through my career, when I started working in the salon, I started to work with cancer patients and I, I saw these women come in and they were really strong, ballsy women, knew what they want. But when they lost their hair, they weren't like that. They not only lost their hair, they lost a part of themselves. They lost their identity and they would look in the mirror and not recognise themselves. And I had women say to me, they would rather lose their breasts than their hair. And that was like really powerful to me. So that's when I started to work with wigs and I used to try and refine them because the wig thing back then was like the NHS. They weren't like, they weren't great. It, it looked like a wig and people would rather not wear it when I'm comfortable.

• 33:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  People would rather not wear them.

• 33:42Fearne Cotton?

  My nan was like that. She's like, no, I'm just gonna do a scarf on my head.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. So I would like try and work on making them look more natural, colouring the root, plucking them. And when I did the wig and they would walk out, I literally had women say like, I feel like I can do this. I feel like I can fight this because when they lost their hair, they were like rabbits in headlights. They literally were like, the whole world knows I'm sick and I don't recognise myself when I look in the mirror because their identity was gone. So hair is just so powerful. And like I said, that's why there is something about sitting in the stylist's chair. So I think in this book, people really will have that experience and it, it, I guess it's like having the opportunity to sit in my chair, even though I'm not necessarily present. I wanted to put something into a book of everything I've learnt that seems to work universally.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  That people can help redefine themselves and use reinvention as a blueprint and know that it is possible. You just need to know how.

• 34:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. And I mean, not only have you done that yourself, but you've got that experience of talking to all of these brilliant people that you now work with, who have had incredible journeys themselves. And like you say, if you're working with a big celebrity, whether it's Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner or J Lo, it's so important for them to have on set people they feel so comfortable with because they might be getting up super early. They've got a long shoot ahead with lots of people asking them to do many, many things.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 35:03Fearne Cotton?

  That sort of scene you create for them, it needs to be calm, it needs to be malleable, like whatever they want to talk about, you're up for going there, or maybe just quiet time. So you do become so much more than someone who's just styling their hair. You're there to to set a scene. And I'm sure that's what you want to create for anyone who sits in your chair.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Totally. And I guess I want people to really see themselves and like just stop, look in the mirror and ask yourself like, is this enough? Is this truly who I want to be? Or did I get told this version of myself was how I should be? You know, and that is both whether you're in a relationship that you're not happy in, or if you're in a job that you don't love, or just, you know, you're unhappy with your hair. In the book, they're going to find ways to start to break that down from the beginning to the end. And change is a journey. It doesn't just happen like that. It takes time. But the best place to start is to start, you know, just a step one.

• 36:02Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, your own personal story, which you touch on a lot in the book, is really interesting. You had kids very, very young. You were a teenager when you had your first child.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Nineteen.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  Nineteen. How do you think fathering kids at that age impacted you? How did that change your world at that point?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  I mean, they're the greatest thing that ever happened to my kids. It's wild. I just think it was meant to be that way. I don't, I can't imagine my life without them. I think they saved me in so many ways. But again, I did everything pretty young. And it was through, I think, being bullied at school and so not wanting to be. Myself, I so pushed away from it. I did everything younger. I got a job at thirteen. I was in the salon and qualified by sixteen. I was going out from sixteen to, you know, nineteen all the time. And I kind of was just trying to get through life and be enough. I was trying to just be enough. I think that was my goal. I just wanted to be enough. And then meeting Kate, um, she was ten years older than me.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And we had a great relationship for ten years. And I think being a dad just for me was such a, and still is. It's my greatest achievement. And my biggest, my biggest goal was to, I guess, protect them from some of the things that I went through. And that was why coming out at the age of twenty seven, twenty six, twenty seven was so hard. Because it wasn't just my shame I was dealing with, I was dealing with theirs. And the, the, the biggest fear for me was ever bringing anything negative on to them. And I felt like I was bringing all of my past experience on to them, which was the darkest time in my life. But I think accepting yourself and I think once you've gone to your lowest breaking point.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  I remember a distinct moment where I was like, well, if I'm still gonna be here. If I'm gonna live and, and be here in this world, I couldn't hate myself anymore. I couldn't run away from myself anymore. So how about I just start from the beginning and I just kind of surrendered. And I was like, I don't quite know what I'm doing, but this is where I'm at now. And I'm gonna start on page one. And I was like, okay, so I'm gay and I, I, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna work on just saying that. Because I couldn't even say it.

• 38:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  I couldn't even say it. And it, it needed just to find myself. I needed to redefine who I was and cut away the old roots that weren't there anymore and redefine what that meant. And that was, that was the journey. And um, it's long and it's hard and doing the real work isn't easy, but it's the best thing you can ever do.

• 38:33Fearne Cotton?

  Of course, of course.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Because if I hadn't have done all that, I, I, I just, I generally don't think I'd be here now. I, I wouldn't be.

• 38:40Fearne Cotton?

  But you did try to take your life after you'd come out to Kate and your children.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yes. I, I, I mean, I think I did speak about that briefly and I, I honestly, I, I thought it was something I would never share. It was, it was so much shame around it. But I I could handle to an extent of a people knowing I felt guilt and shame. But when I told the kids, I just something happened where I just closed down. I I don't know, it it was just the worst moment for me because I just never wanted to put any of the, I guess, the trauma I went through as a child on them. And I felt like I'd passed on the baggage. And I just was like, it would be better for me not to be in their life than for them to have a dad that's gay. Like, that's, people are not gonna be okay with that. They're gonna get bullied, they're gonna, I just felt like I'd passed on this.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  It felt like a disease, it felt, because I I wasn't accepting it, so it felt like it was just taking over me and I couldn't control it. And like I said, if I could have cut it out of me, I would have. So telling them was the hardest night of my life. And I remember just thinking it would be better if I wasn't here. And I drove for a long time, drove, got in the car. It's really, it's amazing what your brain can do when you're in a, I guess, in a breaking point. And um, yeah, I tried to end my life and it didn't work. I woke up and upon waking, like waking up, I I remember just thinking, well, I it couldn't get any worse than this. Like, I couldn't hate myself anymore.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  And I remember laying in the hospital bed and I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna have to just accept this and I'm gonna have to just work my way through it. And like I say, I don't know where to start, but I'm gonna start from the beginning. Cause that has to be a better place than, you you can't keep running away from yourself. You can't keep hating yourself, cause it it just eats you up. Um, and that was day one. And, you know, I think it was probably the first time, if I'm really honest, fun, that I stopped and looked at myself.

• 40:38Fearne Cotton?

  Stop running.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  I'd made a career out of making other people look at themselves and, you know, look in the mirror. I but I never looked at myself, cause it was so much easier to make other people look and feel great and make them better than to actually face my demons and my my my, you know, shame. But I think that was the first time I was like, okay. And I I I, it was like looking in the mirror and seeing myself and I was like. Okay, well, we start from here, you know, and that was, that was the start. And, and that's, that's, that's healing. It's just starting, you know.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and I think, like you said a minute ago, surrendering.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Surrendering.

• 41:10Fearne Cotton?

  When there's, you, there's nothing else you can do in that moment than just go, I'm sta- I'm starting from ground zero.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 41:17Fearne Cotton?

  Let's, let's go. And incredible to see what you've done in that time and your relationship with your children and how inspired they are by what you're doing and you've, you've changed your mindset, you've changed your whole life.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Totally. And it, it's not like I got it all together at all. I still have all my insecurities and fears, like I still don't feel enough a lot of the time. Um, but the difference is now I have these tools, which is what people will find in the book. I know how to stop those voices quicker and I'm like, ah, I'm doing that thing and I can bring myself out of it, you know, I'm sure you still have those like.

• 41:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I've gone, my god, riddled, yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  You know, you, you're kinder to yourself, you know, you know what?

• 41:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it gets boring.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 41:58Fearne Cotton?

  You're like, oh, my god, not this boring voice again telling me I'm an idiot. Like, let's, that's boring, delete.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  You kind of get to silence the haters.

• 42:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  And, um, like I say, once you kind of realise you're abusing yourself, it's very powerful, because you're like, you know, it's not healthy.

• 42:11Fearne Cotton?

  And what you say in the book, which is super important as well, is all of these incredible women that we look up to and say, they are shiny and perfect. I wish I was like them. They all feel the same.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Totally. We're all human, you know, that's the, the, the thing is, we're all human and we all, no one's really immune to feeling these things. I just think there's not enough conversations about it. And there's not enough conversations around sitting in someone's chair and letting go and, and, and, and looking in the mirror. And I think it's the one time that most people can properly relate to where they do stop and look in the mirror. And even if you, e- even if you relate to it by those negative voices in your head where you're like, god, I look old. Jesus Christ, it's lighting, you know, the, the, it's always the same thing. Everyone says the same, whether they're saying it verbally or inside their head. And I think that's why I put the book together, to be able to stop the journey for everyone.

• 43:04Speaker 03

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• 45:04Fearne Cotton?

  What have you learned from these brilliant women that you work with regularly? The ones that you are, you know, someone like Kim Kardashian, you're with her in these moments where she's just got out of bed.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:13Fearne Cotton?

  And you've got to get her ready for a red carpet. Or you're with her and she's got family drama going on and you're about to send her off down like one of the most exposing red carpets.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:21Fearne Cotton?

  What have you learned from these women in these deep chats that you're having? You know, or with, Chris wrote the foreword for your book, you know, you've obviously got a great relationship with her now where you can have these, you know, human to human discussions about life.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think just that, it's interesting because I don't really see them as celebrities, like, I probably won't be able to do my job if I did, you know?

• 45:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it'd be too weird.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, because when I used to think, when I thought of Christina Aguilera as Christina Aguilera, like, I guess that was the child in me. Whereas I think now I'm just very professional and I kind of, I'm an adult Chris going into it. But I think maybe just realising that we're all the same, we're all humans, we all have the insecurities and fears, we're all trying to be the better version of ourselves. And I think, you know, I mean, working with Kim has been such an amazing experience because she's such a multi-dimensional person. Not only is she, you know, a businesswoman and she's created Skims, which is this phenomenon.

• 46:12Fearne Cotton?

  I'm wearing a bra now.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, great stuff. I know, it's been phenomenal to see her, you know, build that. But then to evolve and, you know, she was obviously doing reality TV, but now she's doing law and she's, you know, training to be a lawyer and how she is as a single parent and how much time and how amazing she is as a mom, that she, and the time that she gives to her kids, you know, and like, I think I've always been very inspired by her work ethic and how hard she works. It's always, you know, fascinating for me to see how someone can balance so much. So yeah, there's always so much you're learning from the people around you.

• 46:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Which, you know, I feel very grateful to be able to experience. And like I say, that's why I kind of, I want to put something together that people, that's why I wanted to put something together that people feel like they could be a part of. And it's like, okay, well, you don't look like J Lo, but this is how, this is, this is the process, you know, like, start from, start from the beginning. Let's start from the beginning, let's look at you in the mirror and then let's take you through some steps of how to get to a better place. Not just like for your outside, you know, visual look, but actually internally, how we kind of bring you into a better place.

• 47:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and feeling that confidence, because I think one thing Americans are very good at.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:19Fearne Cotton?

  Is confidence.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:20Fearne Cotton?

  We're not good at it. Like, in the UK, we're so self-deprecating. Oh God, I'm sorry and, oh pardon, you know, like, everything's so apologetic and we... Often shrink ourselves down. We don't wanna be too seen or say too much because somebody might shoot us down and say you're a piece of shit. So we kind of do it before they do.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:37Fearne Cotton?

  I think in America, the culture is different and having, you know, I've been there a bunch, but I worked there a bit in my twenties and I felt that there, that sense of, oh no, people want you to do well here. And actually, everybody's very celebratory of success, but equally, I think confident going into things like, yeah, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna succeed here. And our culture is very different to that here.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And I think that, I mean, I think that was the great thing about going to America and learning a different culture and, and, and learning it's okay to change and to evolve. And that's what it took for me to change and be able to come home now. I really appreciate it and appreciate that, I, I, I guess, journey. And I think that the best thing they say you can do as a child or for your child is for them to leave the town they were brought up in because you quite quickly kind of absorb the way of life. Like, oh, you grow up, you get married, you have a child, you work here nine till five. I, I think there's a, there's a real power and I really encourage my kids to go out there and, and experience life, you know, and, and, and experience new cultures and

• 48:42Speaker 02

  new cities and new ways. Cause it, it gives you the freedom and it gives you the vision to know that you can live differently. And it's like, oh, it's okay. I don't have to do that thing that I saw my parents do. And I've kind of inherited. And that's with relationships. Like I, for a long time, I was trying to figure out like, why do I keep ending up in the same relationship with the same result? And it really took time for me to be like, oh, I think I saw this when I was a kid. And I'm kind of like, I thought that was normal, but it's not. And it's not that anyone did anything wrong, cause we all come from something. It's just that like, I kind of thought that was what was normal. I'm sure maybe what you saw your parents do was normal and you'd see things in yourself of like, oh, I do that thing my mom does, or dad does, you know? And then once you kind of relearn.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  That you can retell the story and you know, you're not defined by your past. It's really powerful. It changes everything because now I'm allergic to the things I was going for in the past.

• 49:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  I might still be, I might still be attracted to it. I might, I, I, I don't want anyone to think I've got it to go, because I'm really not. I'm still figuring it out. We all are. It's bullshit. If anyone says they are, I'm like, oh, fuck off. No, you're not. We're all, we're all figuring it out. But what I do think I do know now is that if I do get those voices, or if I do get attracted to the thing that I used to be attracted to, because that's still there, I'm like, I know that's not good for me. I, I know how that feels and how that's gonna end. And I, I just, I, like I said, I feel like allergic to it because once you've healed and once you've done the work, you can't, you, you don't wanna make the same mistakes. It's like, it's like being an alcoholic and, and, and becoming sober.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  And you might still see a drink and think, oh, but you just know that you can't go there. It's not good for you. It doesn't work, you know? And so, so you, you learn to avoid it. And you can do the same with relationships, with, you know, friendships, with jobs. You can, you can do that in all areas of your life, even if it's just the negative talk in your head, you know? But a lot of us just think, oh no, it's just who I am. It's just the way I am. And it's not, you know, you can change.

• 50:41Fearne Cotton?

  A lot of it is built on self-respect, isn't it? Because when you've got self-respect, you want better for yourself. You don't wanna end up in the same shitty dead end that you did last year or 10 years ago. And you think, actually, and it's a big deal when you get to a point, I think I'm on the edge of it now where in my mid 40s, I'm like, I think I do deserve to feel good about myself and to feel happy or to feel like a sense of achievement or um to have people around me that make me feel good. When you don't feel deserving and your self-esteem or self-respect is low, this is kind of like borderless, you know, you just let anyone in or any abuse in.

• 51:21Fearne Cotton?

  Because you don't think you deserve any better. When, when do you think that self-deserving thing kicked in for you? Like, actually, I, I deserve to be working with brilliant people, to be succeeding, to be in a healthy relationship, to be authentically myself. When did that start to come about?

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Um, I think just in every relationship I've ever been in, realising that I was probably.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Not protective of myself, you know, it was the one time, I think at work I was always very, you know, I always had it together with my job. But when it became to my personal relationships, I just kind of let everything, I was just open. I, I, I was just an open book and I, I, I think, you know, you have to learn to let the right people in.

• 52:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Because not everyone has the best intentions and, you know, you have to learn that. That's just the way of life and, you know, you have to be a bit more protective of yourself, like you would be protective of your kids or like you would be protective of your friends. You know, have you ever spoke to a friend, you're like, oh my God, I can't believe you put up with that, you, what, you let him talk to you like that?

• 52:19Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  But like, I'm sure you've been spoken to like that, you know, you kind of, well, you know, they were, they were.

• 52:25Fearne Cotton?

  You make excuses.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, because yourself, so I think for me, I just, just, just like, the point where I realised I was enough is when I was actually on my own and I really stopped and again, looked. And I was like, why do I keep going into these same situations and getting the same result? And I really wanted to change that, so I really had to look at the dynamic.

• 52:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  And I think for me as well, like as a part of me that wanted to like fix people, because I did that for my job. For my job, I was always like helping people see the best versions of themselves, bring them, bring that out in them. And, and, and you tend to do that then in your relationships and I'm like, oh, well, if they just, you know, if we just do this or we just do that. And you, I realised that it's not my job to fix people in a relationship, people, and also people, change is really hard. So anyone watching this that thinks change is easy, it's really not, it's fucking hard.

• 53:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  But it's like losing weight and going to the gym is fucking hard, you don't just go once and lose ten pounds, you have to go and you have to be consistent and then over time you see a result. But once you've seen the result, you tend to stick to it because you like the way it makes you feel, that's the same with, you know, self-help and, and, and inner work, like. You can't just expect to read a book and it change your life, but it will give you the tools and if you follow them through to start at the beginning.

• 53:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  And, and, but, but, but once you've seen it, trust me, you won't be able to unsee it because it will just be there in your head and you, you, you can't help but go towards change then.

• 53:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  It's like once you've lost a few pounds and you're at the gym and you, you like the way that makes you feel, makes you feel a bit more confident and you fit in your jeans better and you can't, I like the way this feels, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick with that, this is, this is my happy way, you know, this is, this is, this is how I feel healthy.

• 53:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Um, and I think there's just so much to be done for that on your, on your internal.

• 54:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt. Hey, I'm gonna ask you such an annoying question.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, go for it.

• 54:05Fearne Cotton?

  But it'd be remiss of me to not say.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 54:08Fearne Cotton?

  If I sat in your chair right now and you got your scissors out or your dye, what are you doing to this hair? What are you doing to this hair?

• 54:16Speaker 02

  You, how, you've always been blonde.

• 54:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Which I love.

• 54:20Fearne Cotton?

  I went red for one moment.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  I do remember that, yeah. What did red do to you?

• 54:25Fearne Cotton?

  Um, it was not the right shade of red for me. I went very red. This was when I was about 22. I also had black hair for a bit.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Who's your like hair inspo? Have you ever had like a hair idol?

• 54:36Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I don't know. I chop and change my mind.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Who's your references? Who's on your Pinterest?

• 54:41Fearne Cotton?

  Who's on my Pinterest? I, I couldn't even tell you. I, I, I don't know.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  What kind of girl are you? Like more of a glamour girl or you're a cool effortless girl?

• 54:49Fearne Cotton?

  No, I wouldn't say I'm, I'm not glamorous at all. And I wouldn't even say I'm cool. I don't know. I, I don't know. Help.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Really? That's so fascinating.

• 54:58Fearne Cotton?

  I, I quite like, I go from long to bob all the time.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:01Fearne Cotton?

  And sometimes a bob makes me feel like, yeah, I'm back, I'm cool, I'm ready to go. And then I'm like, oh, I wish it was long again. And I spent ages growing it like I have now.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Does it feel like a security blanket when it's long?

• 55:11Fearne Cotton?

  Maybe, maybe it is a bit of a security blanket. I think you're right.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, I think like, I mean, I feel blonde looks great on you. Cause there's two ways of looking at it.

• 55:18Fearne Cotton?

  I think blonde works for me.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  What works with your skin tone? Like I think you look great blonde.

• 55:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  I think it could even be brighter blonde.

• 55:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I like this.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  I feel like your personality is, but I mean, if you're going with personality, I feel like you're bubbly and bright. And I, I actually feel like your hair at the minute is, it's kind of quite dark.

• 55:34Fearne Cotton?

  It is. I mean, my actual hair colour is dark. I think I'm gonna bleach the shit out of it.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  I think you could be brighter and like, you know, make it pop a little bit more.

• 55:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Cause I think it'll bring out your eyes and your skin tone. At the minute, like you've got some nice bits around the front, but the back is almost blending into your skin tone and your eye colour. So you could kind of go against that and make it pop. Not that it looks bad, it looks great. You look beautiful.

• 55:52Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't care. I want you to tell me the thing.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  But I think it could definitely be brighter.

• 55:56Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, and are we chopping a bit off or are we keeping it long?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  I think it could be a bit more like Kate Mossy, fucked up, like lived in sexy.

• 56:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, that's what I'm.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  A bit more, bit blonde. I don't think you need to go for the, Bobby's great, but sometimes it can be a bit mumsy as well.

• 56:09Fearne Cotton?

  That's why I've avoided it.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it can get, it can get a bit like, and then it's kind of just there.

• 56:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, although I'm a mum, I don't identify as one.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  You don't always wanna look like one, do you know what I mean? But I think maybe we bring sexy back.

• 56:21Fearne Cotton?

  Guys, I'm gonna bleach the shit out of it.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Next time, let's do it.

• 56:25Fearne Cotton?

  When you see me.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  We've got more time. No, I should have come and we should have just done it. I should have sat in the chair. What, who booked this for God's sake?

• 56:31Fearne Cotton?

  Who booked me another podcast after this one, for God's sake?

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Cancel, move on.

• 56:34Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, well, I'm doing it. That's all I needed to hear.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  I wanna, I wanna, for a sec, like, you look beautiful. I think you have amazing hair and you, you have, you know, a beautiful face. But like, if you wanted to, you know, I feel like you're, I feel like you're at a stage.

• 56:45Fearne Cotton?

  I'm eager.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Where you're like, I want a little something, you know? And like, you know, just like those pops of blonde and.

• 56:50Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking doing it.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Subtle change can make you just feel like, fuck, yeah.

• 56:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  And it doesn't have to be a fucking bob or a shaved head or, you know, so many people think change has to be scary. Can just be really subtle, you know, I feel really good about myself.

• 57:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's just a bit more blonde, guys.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Totally, and a little bit more.

• 57:04Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, I'm excited. Um, before we wrap up.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:07Fearne Cotton?

  Where is your happy place?

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Uh, my happy place is absolutely, I think, always and forever will be, just with my kids. You know, we just went away for the weekend. It was Thanksgiving in America, so it's kind of my tradition to go away with them. And they now have partners that have been in relationships for a long time and I'm their single dad with them. But I'm just, I'm so proud of them, the decisions they've made, even the partners they've picked. And you know, we have such an open discussion. Like, I was talking to Kitty, my daughter, and like, you know, we were talking about my upbringing and then their upbringing and how, you know, trauma has passed. And I was like, there's things that you guys are gonna figure out from the way we brought you up, me and your mom, when we did our best.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Everyone does their best, but there's just things that, you know, you can read and then they're both so healthy. Like, they, her and her partner do therapy and they like, you know, because they're very different. Like, he's very sort of matter of fact and not emotional particularly at all. And she is way more like me. She's way more emotional, way more in touch with her feelings. So what they wanted to do is figure out how they can communicate and they both.

• 58:13Fearne Cotton?

  How sensible.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Oh my god, so sensible. And they take, but, you know, he's become more understanding and understand, you know, more communicative, which is really healthy. And she's become less sort of anxious as a version of that. Because obviously, there's always that anxious, you know, secure, avoidant attachment.

• 58:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  But there's always this avoidant, anxious dance. And I think what's great is now there's so many tools that people are aware of that. Because, you know, because love or hate social media, it's really helped people. Have a voice and see that and they're like, oh, I'm in an anxious relationship. I'm in a, I'm in a, you know, I'm an avoidant or, you know, and understanding those things. And if you do want to have a healthy relationship, you've got to be able to look at yourself because no one's perfect. And we all have inherited things of like, oh, I didn't really realise I did that. Because to me, it's just normal, but to someone else on the receiving end, it can feel like shit. You know, but when you love someone, you're like, ah, I want to, I want to be better for that. I want to, want to not do that to you.

• 59:04Fearne Cotton?

  I love you having those chats with your kids.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so good. I, I love, I love being a dad so much and I just, I'm so proud of them. I'm so proud of the, they know who they've become and um, I, I, I, my greatest goal in life was for them to, you know, be proud of me, which um, I had this, but actually we were doing this book. There were these letters to me and, you know, them saying they were proud of me was my greatest achievement. I was like, I'm good, I'm done, job done, put my feet. But yeah, um, they're, they're my happy place.

• 59:33Fearne Cotton?

  That's heaven. Well, look, Chris, I've loved talking to you.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  I love talking to you too. It's so nice.

• 59:39Fearne Cotton?

  So great. And just good luck with everything you're doing.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Next time I bring my scissors.

• 59:42Fearne Cotton?

  Bring your whole kit. Okay, we're going in.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  And thank you for reading my book.

• 59:46Fearne Cotton?

  I loved your book.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  I, I feel like you're, you're ready for a change now.

• 59:49Fearne Cotton?

  I'm ready. I'm getting the bleach out.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Hopefully everyone's gonna, everyone's gonna have this. This is, everyone's gonna be like, hey, can I just ask you a quick question? Quick consultation.

• 59:56Fearne Cotton?

  I have to do it. Chris, you're a legend. Thank you so much.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:00:01Fearne Cotton?

  I loved that chat. Not only because I genuinely felt like I learned a hell of a lot about hair and what it represents, but also just hearing Chris's story, I found so inspirational. Um, so brave, like the big changes that he's made in his life, coming out to his children, you know, trying to take his own life and recovering from that and starting again. It's a real story of someone that's turned their life around and I'm just so thrilled for him. Go on, Chris. What's your relationship with your style been like over the years? Let's have a little natter on Instagram. We're over on at happy place official. All right. Until next time, huge thanks again to Chris, to the producer, Anushka Tate

• 1:00:43Fearne Cotton?

  at Happy Place Studios and to you, you are bloody gorgeous.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

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