Ballet with Megan Burbank

Megan Burbank’s gotta dance. The centuries-old dance style known as ballet has been stereotyped in our modern world with images of refined, wispy, frighteningly disciplined young women fighting viciously for roles in ethereal productions. For this episode, Adult Dance Correspondent Megan Burbank shares with Sarah the history and transformation of this misunderstood art from its early days as a fancy French aristocratic performance, to its post-French Revolution embrace by the working class, and finally into 20th century America when the expected body of the ballerina began to take shape. Megan also shares her own experience as a late-onset ballerina, dispelling myths about what ballet is, who can participate, and what we can learn about ourselves through its techniques. Together they discuss the line between art and sport, the aspects of horror found in many ballets, and whether it is too late for all of us to become the prima ballerina of our dreams. Digressions include: Final Destination acupuncture, the smell of the Scholastic book fair, and the questionable advertising employed by Tab soda. Send your submissions for our Halloween Listener Spectacular (scary stories or Halloween nostalgia) to [email protected] before August 31st! Referenced: Ballet Evolved How Political Anxiety Turned Me into a Late-Onset Ballerina eXit SPACE Dance Studio International Adult Ballet Festival TAB Soda Fever Dream More Megan Burbank: Burbank.industries Burbank Industries on Substack Produced + edited by ⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠ More You're Wrong About: ⁠⁠⁠Bonus Episodes on Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Buy cute merch⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠YWA on Instagram⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Marshall?

  I mean, what's better than making a man dance himself to death, I ask you?

• 0:16Sarah Marshall?

  Welcome to You're Wrong About, where sometimes we're wrong about ballet and we are wrong about it with Megan Burbank. Megan?

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:26Sarah Marshall?

  How are you doing?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here talking about ballet with you.

• 0:31Sarah Marshall?

  You are so good. Your journey with ballet is something that I'm excited to also talk about. And I certainly hope that you're planning on sharing that as part of our story. But how are you doing this summer?

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I'm good. I've been having a very hot ballet summer. I went to an intensive in Florida.

• 0:53Sarah Marshall?

  Oh.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Which, I don't know, I don't know that I recommend Florida, but I did have a good time.

• 0:59Sarah Marshall?

  Florida's a mixed bag.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  It really is. Although the humidity is great for the joints, I gotta say.

• 1:04Sarah Marshall?

  Ah.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  If you're wondering about that.

• 1:07Sarah Marshall?

  Great for ballet?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it actually is. That's like the, the secret. So I went to a, a dance intensive and I performed a classical ballet variation on point in a very sparkly tutu. And so, you know, we're feeling good about ballet right now.

• 1:25Sarah Marshall?

  How did that feel?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:28Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, it was really hard and it takes a ton of preparation. So I had, I knew I was going to this intensive in July. And most intensives, if there is a performance component, you usually have to learn the choreography at the intensive.

• 1:47Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Which is really bad for pretty much anyone who began ballet as an adult, or if you have any kind of neurodivergence, or if you have a brain like mine that like just doesn't pick up choreography quickly.

• 1:59Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, I'm like that. Don't you love it in movies where they're like, do the combination and then they do it and you're like, what?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can't do that, especially if it's new to me, choreography. It's like, I either get it immediately or I'm like, I would like three months to work on this one step. It's like one or the other. So this was really cool because it was like you were invited to prepare a solo.

• 2:23Sarah Marshall?

  I also, let's stress for a second, by the way, for people who don't know, you're, you're a grown up.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  I'm an adult. This is my hobby. This is what I do when I'm not doing my actual job. Yeah, it's just for fun.

• 2:35Sarah Marshall?

  But I've met a lot of people who are like, well, I'm too old to dance.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  It's not true.

• 2:39Sarah Marshall?

  I disagree with that.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  It's not true. You can start anytime.

• 2:43Sarah Marshall?

  This will be a big theme.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  This is one thing many people are wrong about. And it's like, it's kind of the ballet world's fault that people have that impression. Because if you go to see ballet, you will see a bunch of like very thin 24 year olds.

• 2:59Sarah Marshall?

  They're famous for being mean to people.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of that's warranted, some of it's not. But yeah, I started ballet as a grown up. And so I was going to this intensive and you could prepare a solo and people did all kinds of things. Like I have a friend who, who worked with someone to choreograph a totally new piece, which is really cool. But I was like, I want to do a classical ballet variation, which is sort of an insane thing to do because a classical ballet variation is typically like a solo from a larger story ballet. And they're typically performed on point. So I learned this piece that was like

• 3:40Speaker 01

  only a minute and 30 seconds, but it's a lot of like balances and jumping and PK turns. And you do it in a beautiful tutu on point and it's really hard. And it was scary to learn because it was just like a lot in terms of like loading my body. But then when I was able to perform it, it felt amazing. It's a really amazing feeling when you are out there and you are doing this scary thing and you're like, I can't believe I'm doing this. Like it took me years to get to the point to be able to do anything even close to this. And then, you know, you hit your little two footed balance and you feel like you could stay up there forever. And it's a really, it's a really special feeling. And I think it's one that I wish more people could have if they're interested in it.

• 4:25Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. Do you think adults generally need more moments like that?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I do think that. When you're, when you're a grown up and you have a job and you have other responsibilities, I think you can start to feel really stagnant and sort of like you're no longer like evolving or changing. And I think what's really special about doing something like ballet is that it takes you out of your normal context. So like for me, I started ballet like right around the time I turned 30 was when I started going to classes. And it was really important for me because I'm a journalist. I cover a famously depressing topic

• 5:08Speaker 01

  that we have talked about on this show before. And when I go to ballet class, because it's such a, it's both like physically intense on your body, like you're thinking about all of these different things at once, like your foot placement, your alignment, like even just like the tips of your fingers, like where those guys are going. And then you're also like, you're thinking about the counts, the music, you're trying to remember the combination. It's this, it's this thing that I think is really helpful because it's like, you really can't think of anything else for 90 minutes when you're in that class.

• 5:45Sarah Marshall?

  You know, I think Stevie Nicks said something very similar about ballet.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  She did do ballet. Yeah. She did it for fun. There, you know, she's wearing point shoes on the cover of rumors, which I think

• 5:57Sarah Marshall?

  That's true.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  not enough people appreciate.

• 5:59Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, well, there's so much to appreciate about Stevie Nicks. You know, that could be like a good 12 hour episode.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  So true. You should do a 12 hour episode on Stevie Nicks.

• 6:11Sarah Marshall?

  You know, I believe that some people out there would like a like 12 hour episode to kind of fall asleep to. That would be fun to try to do.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 6:21Sarah Marshall?

  But so tell, tell me, how are we wrong about ballet? And what, what kind of a journey are we going on? And will it involve sitting in a little creaky velvet seat? While there is an orchestra and then people go and peer down at the orchestra at intermission as if they're seals?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yes. You mean like when we went to see Giselle in Portland?

• 6:43Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a big part of ballet, sitting in a creaky seat.

• 6:48Sarah Marshall?

  Incredible. Okay. What are we wrong about?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Well, let's just start from the beginning. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a little history of ballet. It's a long journey. This is a very ancient art form, but we will start in the, I would say around the 16th, 17th century. So that's when something resembling ballet starts to emerge. And actually, if anyone listening is interested in a real comprehensive history of ballet, I really recommend this book Apollo's Angels by Jennifer Homans, who was a professional dancer and then became a writer and has done a lot of really excellent writing about dance and the history of dance. But anyway, so ballet begins in the 16th, 17th century.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  It's a French courtly art. So it's something that, that all the fancy people in the French court are doing. But not all of them. It's mostly men. So we think of ballet today as being something that's like all about the cult of the ballerina. But it really starts out as this like fancy pants hobby for like little, little fancy guys at French court. I rewatched Marie Antoinette recently and there's like a segment of Marie Antoinette that goes into her like cosplaying as a peasant in Petit Crienant. And then also like she has a show she puts on.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  And it kind of, this is kind of the mood of early ballet. It's like people who live in the French court, who have a lot of time on their hands, are learning this like special art form. But it looks really different from ballet today. The technique is really different. The positions are somewhat similar, but it's not as extreme. So there are a number of foot and arm positions in ballet and I'm not going to go over all of them because we don't have like a million hours. But they get their origin in this period of dance, but they're not as extreme. Like today, the ideal for standing in first position with your feet turned out is 180 degrees, which like pretty much no one actually has 180 degree turnout, but that's the ideal.

• 8:55Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm. And if you had it, wouldn't you just flop right over? I have to wonder.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of hypermobile people who take ballet and it's actually like, it's great to be bendy, like it looks good, but it often comes with its own like practical problems to have that kind of body. Yeah. So we've got these guys who are standing in first position. Their turnout is closer to 90 degrees, which is like, I think a more comfortable standing position. And they're doing these little fancy steps where they go up on their toes.

• 9:31Sarah Marshall?

  Uh huh.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  But they're not even going up to what would today would be considered a demi point, which is like when you go up and put all of your weight on the ball of your foot.

• 9:40Sarah Marshall?

  Okay.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  It's like between that and having your foot flat on the ground. So it's like a little tiny rise of the heel.

• 9:48Sarah Marshall?

  Who are these fancy guys? Do they have titles? What do they do for a living? Are they, are they fancy for a living?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Oh, it's like the king, like Louis the, Louis XIV.

• 9:58Sarah Marshall?

  Oh, little fancy king guys. Okay.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, little fancy king guys. So yeah, so they have their little heels up just slightly. They're doing these little fancy walks and then they have like a little fancy arm flourish. And that's like the dance.

• 10:13Sarah Marshall?

  Oh, this is very Hilarion Blackadder coded, don't you think?

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. That is the vibe. And it's interesting because it's like, if you look at a dancer doing this and there's a really great YouTube series from the Royal Ballet where you can actually see someone like performing these steps.

• 10:31Sarah Marshall?

  Fabulous.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  It's really great. It's like an educational lecture where they have dancers come in from the company and perform different types of ballet throughout ballet history. You see, so you see this, you see someone perform these steps and they don't really look like anything. But that is, this is where ballet begins. This is like where it all starts in there. And this is what evolves into like what we see today on stage.

• 10:52Sarah Marshall?

  Because now this like pretty superhuman thing, I think it's fair to say.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:56Sarah Marshall?

  And like a thing that is sort of weird that it's not in the Olympics where you're like, figure skating, Olympics, sport, yes, ballet. Not sport, art. And you're like, where is the line between sport and art? They both end in a-rt.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  It's very tricky. It's very confusing.

• 11:15Sarah Marshall?

  Spo art.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  And I do consider ballet a sport, but I also will say, like, if you talk to people in the ballet world, they will have all kinds of crazy opinions about that. And they'll be like, no, it's not a sport. Don't call it a sport. It's a, it's an aesthetic art. And I'm just like, I don't know. I get real sweaty doing ballet. It feels a lot like a sport to me.

• 11:38Sarah Marshall?

  Right.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  But it doesn't start that way, right? We've got these, we've got these little fancy guys like the Sun King. And there's actually like this really funny picture of Louis XIV doing ballet dressed up as Apollo. And he has this like amazing like pronged headpiece and it's, it's really wild. So they were getting up to some really, some really interesting dance stuff. And women were involved in ballet at that time, but they couldn't do as much with it because they were wearing these like enormous dresses. So you couldn't see their legs. But if you're a little French prince and you're wearing, you know, your little like shorts and tights, you can actually see the articulation of the leg and the foot. And so that's what it

• 12:23Speaker 01

  looks like early on. And it's not as athletic, although I did watch, I've seen the Royal Ballet's video on this and it does, the coordination of the arm and the leg does look really hard to me. So this is not a kind of dance I personally would want to do. And so this goes on until the French Revolution.

• 12:42Sarah Marshall?

  Which would set ballet back a little bit, I guess.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it upsets the structure of ballet significantly because it's, you know, it's a courtly art. It's something that these fancy princes and kings are doing in their copious free time.

• 12:56Sarah Marshall?

  It's not liberty, egalite, fraternity ballet.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  No, no. So what's interesting about that is that after the French Revolution disrupts ballet, men are no longer the stars of ballet, right? Because we don't like kings.

• 13:14Sarah Marshall?

  Surteloh.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  We are, we hate kings and we don't want to watch.

• 13:18Sarah Marshall?

  But we like queens a little bit?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  We might, well, we still hate queens, but who do we like? We like ballerinas. We like going to the opera and we like seeing ballerinas. And so it's interesting because it become, it goes from something that's this like rarified aristocratic art form to something that is performed by people in the lower classes. And you see this in France.

• 13:41Sarah Marshall?

  That's really cool.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see it in Russia as well. During this time, there's also a significant overlap between ballet and sex work. So a lot of ballet dancers are sex workers and vice versa. And it's maybe, it's maybe not formalized, but it's like, I don't know. I think there is a strong connection there. But what's interesting about this is that because we have toppled our king and we hate royalty, this kind of opens the door for the idea of the ballerina to grow as a concept. And women start to become stars of this art form.

• 14:15Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. And that they have pretty dresses with jewels on them.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  They sure do, Sarah.

• 14:21Sarah Marshall?

  That's so important.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  It is so important. And it, this leads us to the first ballerinas, the first really famous ballerinas, which include dancers like Marie Taglioni, who was, she's often described as the first ballerina to go on point. I don't think that's true. I think she just kind of popularized it. And she was really good at it. So she had these little shoes. She would go up on point in them. And what's interesting about her shoes is like, and like, we can go deep on the ballet nerd stuff with me. So if I'm, if I'm getting too into the weeds, feel free to be like, that's enough now.

• 14:59Sarah Marshall?

  You know, I love weeds. I want to know what exactly, for anyone who doesn't know, and I think I know, but I probably have some misconceptions. That's the point of the show. What exactly going up on point is and you know, why it is as impressive as it is?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So point work is, is considered this really special part of ballet. And you have to get to a point in your body where your feet and your ankles are really prepared for it to even try it. So for anyone who starts their ballet journey, whether you're like six years old or 35, finding out that you're ready for point is really exciting. It's like an exciting moment in your ballet journey. And it's like, some people really want to go on point. Some people are like, I don't really care about point. And you can definitely have a, have a perfectly good time dancing and never do point work. It's absolutely not a

• 15:58Speaker 01

  requirement. And it's kind of a risky behavior when you think about it to go on point. But yeah, so let's talk about the mechanics of point. So

• 16:07Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  A point shoe is, is a very rigid shoe that is designed so that you're on your toes in the shoe. So it has something called a shank, which is this very hard sort of sole of the shoe. It's not quite the sole of the shoe, but that's how I would describe it. And then it has this really thick box that your foot goes into, or your toes go into. And the combination of your ankle and foot strength and flexibility with the mechanics of the shoe, make it so that you can pop up and just balance only on your toes, essentially. And people always think that there's wood in the shoes, or there's like a brick in the shoe, or there's something in the shoe

• 16:52Speaker 01

  that makes it that stiff and rigid and, you know, kind of like a tool of torture. But actually, it's just made out of essentially like papier-mache material and satin.

• 17:03Sarah Marshall?

  That's got a bow on top.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  And it's got a bow on top. It's very shiny. So that's how it works is you just, you do a million exercises to strengthen your, your toes and your ankles and the little teeny tiny muscles in your feet. And then, once you do that, you can manipulate this like really rigid shoe so that you can go up and you can balance on your toes. I do point work. I love point work. I think it's really fun. It's also something that can be dangerous if you do it too early or without correct supervision. Like, I get really stressed out when I see people buying point shoes on Amazon and just like playing with them. Because if you put them on without the correct alignment or technique, you actually, you can do some damage. I mean,

• 17:50Speaker 01

  and I've even been in classes where people have fallen off of point and had, had a bad time. So it is something to be careful of, but it is.

• 17:57Sarah Marshall?

  You french fry when you should have pizza, you're gonna have a bad time.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yes, it's much like that.

• 18:03Sarah Marshall?

  Well, does it hurt to do it?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  You know what? My toxic trait is I don't think it hurts.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Like, it's not a popular opinion to share in ballet class. I don't think it hurts. I think if you're in the wrong shoe, it hurts.

• 18:20Sarah Marshall?

  Okay.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  But I have done point for, for a couple of years and it hurt at first, but it hurt because I was in the wrong shoe. And then when I got fitted with a different shoe, and fitting is like its whole other thing. You have to like, you have to go to a dance store and you just like try on a million shoes and you see what works for your feet. And I was in a really bad shoe for a while that was just like not good for my feet. And so it did hurt to go on point. But then as soon as I got the shoe that I currently am in, I was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. It shouldn't be like little acute pain on your toes. It should actually sort of feel like, I think of it as like a really tight hug around your toes, around your feet. And so it's like.

• 19:05Sarah Marshall?

  I wouldn't have guessed that. That's really.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  I know.

• 19:08Sarah Marshall?

  I don't know. I love that description.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  It's like a really, or maybe a handshake. It's like, you know, when someone has a really her firm handshake. It's like that.

• 19:16Sarah Marshall?

  You're having a handshake with gravity.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Sarah Marshall?

  What do you think of Rose doing that in Titanic? Isn't that a bit bonkers?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's not possible. That wouldn't have worked.

• 19:27Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Cause she would have been on like at the, you know, an area the size of like a pin.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Also, you need the shoes to go on point.

• 19:36Sarah Marshall?

  Right. She's barefoot.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  It would not have worked. I have to say like.

• 19:40Sarah Marshall?

  And drunk.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  I like that. I like that scene a lot. It doesn't bother me that it is not possible.

• 19:48Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, it's a great scene, but it's completely, it's like, okay, James Cameron. All right.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  But it's not real.

• 19:54Sarah Marshall?

  It's like how in Final Destination 5, they have an acupuncture related death where they're like, we are not even going to look up acupuncture because it'll ruin our fun idea that it's like having fish hooks stuck in your body. And then if you like fall on them, you're like, oh no, ow, all these acupuncture needles are killing me. And it's like, in reality, it would be like a slight tickling sensation.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, acupuncture needles, I really can't think of a worse weapon, you know?

• 20:26Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Acupuncture is like one of the least painful things I can think of, actually.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  It's really nice to get acupuncture.

• 20:36Sarah Marshall?

  Just lie on a table chilling out with a very slight tickling sensation.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:42Sarah Marshall?

  Okay, but so it's something that you train your body for and that like, training makes possible, which I guess is kind of an initial you're wrong about because I think that, you know, one of the things that makes ballet such a sort of treasured font of media, including such great films as Center Stage, et cetera.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:00Sarah Marshall?

  Is this idea that like ballet is a discipline where the secret ingredient is pain.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 21:06Sarah Marshall?

  Which, you know, I think can be true of any art formed on the wrong way. And I'm sure that we're gonna have tales of that as well. But also the idea that something worth doing must be intrinsically really hard on your body. Feels like an idea that we're overly attached to in a bigger way.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  I think so too. I mean, I have a teacher that I work with a lot. And one of the things that she always says in class is if it hurts, don't do it. She's a ballet teacher. She's a very old school, Balanchine trained teacher. And she says that all the time. And I think that is actually a really important distinction. Because I don't think point work should be painful. I think it's uncomfortable. It's a visceral feeling, but it doesn't hurt. Like for me, if I'm in pain in a dance class, that means something's probably wrong. That means like, maybe back off and like, go see a PT. So I think that there is this idea that like ballet is pain, ballet is suffering, ballerinas are mean and they hate each other and they put glass in each other's pointe shoes.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  And like, I'm sure that happens somewhere. But in my experience especially, if you're doing this as a hobby, you tend to be around just like the nicest, most pleasant people who will push you. You know, it's hard. It's hard work. But it's not, to me, it's like, when I think about anything athletic, it should be uncomfortable, but it should never be unsafe. And you should feel like you're pushing yourself, but it shouldn't be, I don't think it should be painful, really, ever.

• 22:42Sarah Marshall?

  No. Yeah. And certainly, you know, a lot of us have been brought up on the idea that if it's worth doing, it should be painful, you know? And that's, I think, such a dangerous idea right across the board. Okay. And so how does it evolve? So we have this first kind of point popularizer. Now that I've made you explain it, yeah. How do things progress?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  So Marie Taglioni, she dances on pointe. And she is kind of amazing because I just described the mechanics of pointe shoes to you. And part of what makes pointe shoes work is they have this really rigid shank that helps you get up over the box. But she didn't have that in her pointe shoes. Her pointe shoes were softer. And so she actually, if anyone could do the thing that happens in Titanic, it's Marie Taglioni. And the reason she could do that was just because her leg muscles and her ankle muscles and her foot muscles were so strong. She could just kind of like push herself up to pointe. But that is, that is an exceptional thing. She kind of popularizes it. And then pointe becomes much more integrated into ballet technique more broadly.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  And the shoes evolve, which means that we get this really like ethereal effect. When you go up on pointe, it kind of looks like you're floating, right? And so this becomes a real trope in the romantic ballets that begin around like the 19th century, like Giselle is a romantic ballet. So we've seen this happen, where you have people dancing on stage, usually the corps de ballet, women, and they're on pointe. And the effect that it gives is this sort of ethereal floating effect that makes them look sort of like their spirits or their angels or their fairies. And you will see that motif carried through a lot of the ballets from this era,

• 24:31Speaker 01

  including Giselle, where we see the willies, right? These like incredible, like vengeful women who murder men in the woods by forcing them to dance.

• 24:40Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  So that is, that is where that comes from, is like, there is this discovery that that has this really sort of magical quality. And then we get this sort of spate of these magical stories about women who are like, enchanted or cursed, or they're dead, or they're ghosts. You know, we get shades, we get sylphs, we get fairies.

• 25:01Sarah Marshall?

  I mean, what's, what's better than making a man dance himself to death, I ask you?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Listen, I think Giselle is really underrated ballet.

• 25:10Sarah Marshall?

  I really enjoyed it. We saw it together not too long ago.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  It's fun, right? You went to see it twice. Yeah. And it's really, I love watching the willies. They're so powerful. And they're just these, these women dancing in these romantic tutus. Sometimes they have like dorky little wings on, which I love. I love the dorky little wings. You know, I saw Giselle recently. I saw the P and B version that they did last season. And there's this scene at the beginning of the second act where Myrta, who is like the queen of these undead brides, comes out on stage. And the P and B production has all this mist in it. They really love mist at P and B. There's a lot of mist in Swan Lake too. But she comes out and she's on, she's on pointe and she's doing berets where she's like,

• 25:58Speaker 01

  it's hard to describe a beret, but it's like, it's like you're on pointe, but then you're taking these little tiny steps, so you're moving along. And it almost looked like she was on some kind of like, she was being wheeled on something or something because it was so smooth. And the, and the action of it is so, like, when it's done that beautifully and smoothly, it really does look otherworldly. And so I often think about this era of ballet and the people who would go to see it. And one of the things that I've heard is that the willies in the original productions of Giselle, like were intended to be really scary. And people were afraid of them because of how they looked on stage.

• 26:36Sarah Marshall?

  That's so cool. So it was like horror?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:39Sarah Marshall?

  Like horror entertainment, potentially?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's absolutely, it's uncanny. It's horror coded.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  So it's funny because so many ballets we see are about these like, you know, women in peril, or like princesses, or like benevolent fairies. But there is this streak of sort of like horror coded darkness in ballet that I think is really, like, if you're a horror fan, has a lot to offer.

• 27:11Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. And then, and what, what kind of people are doing it as things progress in this way?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  So we have sort of the, the class shift that happens after the French Revolution continues into this period. And then it starts to get professionalized. So you see things like George Balanchine comes to America and founds the School of American Ballet and New York City Ballet. And there are these sort of key teachers who emerge earlier than that, like Chiketti and Fagone are two of them. And so ballet becomes sort of popularized. It becomes more rarefied. It kind of, I think, in a weird way, it kind of circles back to the aristocratic beginnings where it becomes this exclusive, inaccessible, expensive thing to engage with.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  And that's kind of where we are now. But I do think what's, what's also important to talk about is like, how it progresses in the 20th century. So the technique changes a lot. The technique gets more and more extreme and athletic, I would say. Balanchine is considered kind of the father of American ballet. And I'm kind of mid on Balanchine, which is like a controversial opinion in the dance world. Like, I love watching Balanchine because the style is really, it's really fast and athletic. But also like, I think he's a figure who, if he were alive today, would be me tooed because he just like had so many like iffy interactions with women who he worked with during his career.

• 28:41Sarah Marshall?

  And most companies perform George Balanchine's Nutcracker.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yes. Almost every company that you encounter will perform Balanchine's Nutcracker. Which, and that's kind of like part of the Balanchine thing that I'm a little, I don't love because I feel like it becomes this real like uniformity where everybody is doing Balanchine. And there's just like less variety overall in American ballet companies because of that.

• 29:06Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. Well, and as we've discussed, it's very interesting. Because I think the number is, you know, typically that like a ballet company will make like 70% of its returns from the Nutcracker or something like that.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:22Sarah Marshall?

  And it's just so interesting that like ballet is something that culturally in the United States, we sort of like, don't really engage with at other times of year. And then suddenly at Christmas, we're like, oh my God, we have got to see the Nutcracker.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. The Nutcracker is the cash cow for any,

• 29:40Sarah Marshall?

  Right.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  any ballet company.

• 29:42Sarah Marshall?

  And I love the Nutcracker, but it's such a weird thing to be that.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  It's so weird. The Nutcracker is such a weird ballet.

• 29:48Sarah Marshall?

  It's about a nutcracker.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's very weird. It's very weird. And you know what? I think the Balanchine version is weird. Like, I don't love the Balanchine Nutcracker. It is not my favorite Nutcracker.

• 30:00Sarah Marshall?

  And is that, and are the others like, is the difference in the choreography? Or how does that work?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  So, okay, well, Balanchine's choreography is really tightly controlled by the Balanchine Trust. So you basically have to get permission to do anything Balanchine. And then it's like, you gotta, you gotta do all the steps as prescribed. And this is actually interesting because a lot of Nutcrackers have, including the Balanchine Nutcracker, have pretty nasty racist elements in them.

• 30:29Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Like more than you would think going into it without knowing anything about it. And then you're like, oh, wow.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like,

• 30:38Sarah Marshall?

  That's a lot.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  You're like, I'm, I'm seeing a fever dream of dancing candy. Why is it so racist? Like, what, what's going on?

• 30:46Sarah Marshall?

  It's like when you're looking at slot machines and you're like, why must the slot machines be racist? They're already, you know, stealing everyone's money and surrounded by cigarette smoke. Isn't that enough?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 30:58Sarah Marshall?

  Why must they be geishas?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there was this thing that happened recently. There's, I mean, I feel like in the past decade, there's been sort of a sense of reassessing these, um, the things about ballet that are bad and like need to be reconsidered, which I think are numerous. Like, I love ballet. I think ballet needs to change in many ways. But there was this thing that happened with Pacific Northwest Ballet in Seattle where I live, where one of the things that Peter Bowles, their artistic director, did when he took over was that he retired their older ballet production, which is honestly my favorite ballet. And it had set design by Maurice Sundeck, which was so cool. And you can still see it, like, there is a DVD version you can find that's really good. And I would encourage people to seek it out if you're curious.

• 31:45Sarah Marshall?

  What ballet is it?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  It's the Nutcracker.

• 31:47Sarah Marshall?

  Oh, yeah. Okay.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  And it's much, it's like, the narrative is just all about, it's about Clara, the heroine of the Nutcracker. But it's kind of about her, like, it's kind of like in the night kitchen for girls. It's like she's exploring her like feelings of growing up, you know, and like wanting to like, like fall in love and explore her identity. It's like very cool. I love it.

• 32:08Sarah Marshall?

  Well, that sounds much better because the Balanchine one is like she goes on a date with zero chemistry and learns about a bunch of imports.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Exactly. That is the plot of it. And then, and then at the end, they do get to get into like a magical sleigh and fly up into the sky. So that's cool.

• 32:27Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  But it's a lot, it's a lot to get there, you know? It's a lot of like, it's a lot of kid dancing.

• 32:35Sarah Marshall?

  And then it's like, she gets to watch this other, you know, this sugarplum lady and her boyfriend. And it's like, well,

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:42Sarah Marshall?

  Okay.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like, it's not an emotionally rich narrative.

• 32:47Sarah Marshall?

  No. Yeah, there's not a lot happening.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  It's a lot of, and it's a lot of kid dancing, which like, I'm happy to watch kids dance if I know them. Like, if you are my niece or nephew and you have a ballet recital.

• 32:59Sarah Marshall?

  But we're just not going to know the majority of these kids.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I'm in the front row for that kind of thing. But like, I don't like watching kid dancing because when I go to the ballet, I want to see dancing that I personally can't do.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  That's, I want to be blown away with it. Like, I want to see.

• 33:18Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, that's like how I feel about restaurants where I'm like, you know, if I'm like, I could have put too much salt on this all by myself.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, you don't need to see that. You don't need to pay money to see that. Like, we have weird little dances in flat shoes at home, you know?

• 33:35Sarah Marshall?

  I would really like to see them do Swan Lake and it's just like a bunch of 12 year olds doing all of the parts.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  That would be kind of fun, actually, but I think very hard for them. Swan Lake is, oh, is a real commitment.

• 33:47Sarah Marshall?

  We'll modify it.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you can always modify it. That's the other thing to know about this. Like, you can always, and there's a lot of modifying that goes on in recreational dance world. Because like, not a lot of us can do fouetté turns on point. Some people can, but I'm not at that phase in my ballet career.

• 34:05Sarah Marshall?

  What kind of a turn is that?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  That is a, so fouetté is like a whipped turn. That's what it means. And it's like, it's like you do a turn and you kind of like kick your foot out and the foot moves around with you. It's hard to describe. But there's a sequence in Swan Lake where the lead ballerina performs 32 fouettés.

• 34:23Sarah Marshall?

  Oh, my God.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  One after the other. And it's really amazing. And it's also really hard. And there are plenty of professional ballerinas who like, can't do it.

• 34:34Sarah Marshall?

  Now, does your inner ear like adjust to spinning around in your experience?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Does it adjust? Um, I think that you get more accustomed to spinning around. Like, the first time you do it, you're like, this feels wrong. I don't like this. I mean, at least that's how it feels for me. Like, the first time I tried turning, I was just like, how am I even going to get around?

• 34:57Sarah Marshall?

  Do you just like still get dizzy, but you can deal with it personally?

• 35:00Speaker 01

  I think you just get used to being kind of dizzy. Like, I think that's.

• 35:06Sarah Marshall?

  Like, that's the answer to so many questions in life. You're like, no, it still happens. You just get used to it happening.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  And so much of ballet is like that. It's like just learning to tolerate certain sensations in your body without being like, this is, this is weird. Like, you know, it's not normal to be standing on your toes. And then the first time you go up on point, you're like, I'm never getting away from the bar. This is really scary. But then you gradually, it starts to feel more normal in your body. And then it's like, you can get away from the bar and then you can do two footed balances. And then you can do one footed balances. And a lot of it is kind of like developing your tolerance for sensations. Again, like, I don't think ballet should be painful, but it's unnatural for sure. You're in weird positions. And so I think a great deal of ballet training is just like

• 35:56Speaker 01

  learning how to stand in the weird positions correctly. And then to kind of like get your brain and your body to the point where they're like, okay, I'm safe here. I can be in this position and it'll be okay.

• 36:08Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. And then how, how does our evolution keep happening? Like culturally and in terms of, yeah, because then I get you're saying it becomes like much more athletic, which I guess is also like, I've looked a little bit in the past at the history of gymnastics and like, in like, I don't know, the twenties, you're like, that's gymnastics? They're just kind of like standing there doing like a Superman pose, like, I'm a gymnast.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. The athleticism really increases. The jumps get higher, the extensions get higher, everything gets higher. Yeah. You see a lot of like leg next to face happening where you're like, you're like, how did you get your leg up there? But they did. It's amazing. And so the technique just becomes much more athletic. And then also, like, one of the things that happens that I think is depressing and wrong is that there also begins to be this change in the body types that you see when you go to ballet. If you look at ballerinas from Marie Taglioni's era, they don't look like the dancers of today. Like, they'll often have small waists, but it's because they were corseted when they danced. So you're not looking at a natural waist.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  They have really muscular legs, but they tend to have them like a softer look, you know? They look like adult women. And honestly, like, when I see dancers perform, I like to see dancers who look like adults because, I don't know, I don't want to feel like I'm watching someone who's like artificially forcing themselves to maintain like a prepubescent body. Like, I think that's really disturbing. And so if you look at ballet dancers from the past, they don't have this like really willowy, skinny build. They just kind of look like regular ladies. And then with Balanchine's introduction into American Ballet, there begins to be this new ideal of dancers who are incredibly skinny, slightly taller,

• 38:00Speaker 01

  and have like long, long limbs and sort of, and like a visible sternum. And I don't love that.

• 38:08Sarah Marshall?

  Why the sternum? Why is so much love for the sternum?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  I don't know, because the thing about that is. It's not rooted in biomechanics at all. Like, there are certain things that can help you physically when you dance, but they're, none of them are about body size. You know, some people have hypermobility that makes some things harder and some things easier. Having really archy feet is something that's really prized. Like, if you have a foot that can bend like a banana, people just go crazy for that. And they're, and they're called banana feet.

• 38:42Sarah Marshall?

  That should be a young adult book about ballet banana feet.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Banana feet, yeah.

• 38:46Sarah Marshall?

  Wouldn't that be good?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  About someone learning to dance on their banana feet, because it's really hard. I don't have banana feet.

• 38:52Sarah Marshall?

  My name's Clara, but everyone calls me banana feet.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Because I have the archiest feet in Miss Prince's ballet class.

• 39:02Sarah Marshall?

  But the problem is, I'd rather be rollerblading.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Published in 1992 by Scholastic Books.

• 39:09Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, with the apple, uh huh.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 39:12Sarah Marshall?

  Oh, Scholastic.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:15Sarah Marshall?

  I know that book fair was a racket, but oh, what a racket it was. The best racket of our lives.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  I loved the Scholastic Book Fair.

• 39:24Sarah Marshall?

  It smelled amazing.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  In the school auditorium? I wish they had that now, still. I would go.

• 39:31Sarah Marshall?

  I know, they should have that at workplaces, you know, people would, would get into that. You could get adults to read.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  I would really like that.

• 39:39Sarah Marshall?

  All right. So this, so we have something that like, in a way that's probably familiar to a lot of disciplines, becoming transformed into something that like prizes certain body types and there being inevitable consequences to that. And like, what forces do you think are like causing that to happen culturally? You know, because that can be like an idea that some guy has, but why do you think this is catching on in such a way?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think part of it is just that during the period of time when Balanchine is most influential, is around the time that like body ideals do start to change and thinness becomes something that is like on trend. And then I would also say like Balanchine had a tremendous amount of influence over the development of American ballet. And he tended to, I mean, one of the reasons I say he would be me too today was that he would routinely like have affairs with his dancers and he married three of his dancers at different times. And so he would kind of like, I think he had a type.

• 40:42Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  And this was the type he was going for. And then he also had this idea of what aesthetically he wanted his ballets to look like. And then it's like, if you have the person that's going to be referred to as like the father of American ballet and making these choices, like that's the body type that starts to get prized.

• 40:59Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  And it's really a shame because it's like some, it's just some guy.

• 41:04Sarah Marshall?

  It's just some guy. Hit him with your car.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  It's just some guy. And it's also like, you know, as much as I appreciate Balanchine's contributions to choreography, and I do, you know, um, he's not always my favorite.

• 41:17Sarah Marshall?

  God forbid you be accused of not appreciating his contributions to choreography.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Listen, you gotta be careful what you say about Balanchine. He's like,

• 41:25Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  He's like Taylor Swift in that his fans are scary.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  So, anyway, uh.

• 41:34Sarah Marshall?

  Listen, I've been a big defender of Taylor Swift. I think she's misunderstood, but honey, having a wedding at Madison Square Garden for no flipping reason.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  I really have questions. Also.

• 41:45Sarah Marshall?

  That was weird. What was that about?

• 41:48Speaker 01

  And the thing they had on the screen outside that said just TNT married, I truly, I truly thought it was AT&T SpawnCon. I was like, what's, I was like, what's, what are you guys doing?

• 42:02Sarah Marshall?

  Uh, I mean, the thing about Taylor Swift is that she's so famous and there's so many fan theories about her that by definition, 95% of them are contradicting each other. And it's just, you know, it's, that's a weird thing to be. It's like ceasing to be a person and being like a country or something.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a, like a business entity.

• 42:23Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. But you know what? If you're gonna have your wedding at Madison Square Garden, make it a big concert. Like I think Sly from Sly and the Family Stone did. So, yeah, and there's just, I mean, this is a much bigger question than we have time for, but why the heck not? This, do you think that the sort of the, the little, the underfed body type begins to be prized for women kind of in the middle of the 20th century generally? Uh, and if so, why?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I think it does, right? I mean.

• 42:55Sarah Marshall?

  I'm thinking about Twiggy.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I'm thinking about Twiggy. I'm thinking about the narrow waists on vintage dresses from the 50s and 60s. I'm thinking about the constrictive garments you would have to wear under those.

• 43:09Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, the girdle era, how, you know, if you have a mom who was an adolescent in the 60s, she probably wore a girdle.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  It's so disturbing.

• 43:18Sarah Marshall?

  I know. They went through so much that we, we never had to experience. My mom used to iron her hair. That's a separate topic, but that's, I mean, with an iron, like for clothes.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:30Sarah Marshall?

  That poor woman ironing her hair, her poor hair.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, but I think, I think it's true because if you look at clothes from, say, the 1940s, the silhouettes tend to be curvier.

• 43:44Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And then when you get into like the 50s and 60s and beyond, it's like, and also like, well, the flapper era like long precedes that. But you know, it's like, we go in and out of these things. But yeah, you get, you get people like Twiggy and you get this like prizing of extreme thinness and like, you know, the mini skirt and these like increasingly small articles of clothing.

• 44:06Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. And starting to see thinness as health in a way that I think we haven't really doing, been doing before historically. Cause you know, before, right? There was really the idea that if a kid was skinny, you would fatten them up. You would give them like butter sandwiches.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Sarah Marshall?

  Or something like that. And then if a woman was skinny, that was bad because it meant she might not have childbearing ability. But there's like, I'm sure I've told you about this before, but I am enduringly obsessed with the marketing around TAB, which was I think the first diet soda.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:39Sarah Marshall?

  It was like a cola. It came out in, I think the early 60s, mid 60s. But there's this TAB ad that feels like it was cooked up by Don Draper himself that has this like haunting jingle that's about how when you're not with him, you're gonna be in his mind, you're gonna be a mind sticker. That's the slogan, be a mind sticker. Because basically, because you gotta drink TAB. You gotta keep your shape in shape with TAB.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  To be a mind sticker.

• 45:13Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, you gotta drink the zero calorie soda to keep your shape in shape. The shape is that you're having is that you're not having any calories because if you're not a mind sticker, I'll forget about you and he's at work and he'll have sex with someone else presumably.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:27Sarah Marshall?

  Like it doesn't spell it out, but that's the implication. It's like, drink, for the love of God, drink TAB. Your husband will forget you if you gain an ounce.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  God forbid you should win him over with your personality, you know?

• 45:39Sarah Marshall?

  No.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Like, that's really, that's really depressing.

• 45:43Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, it really is. Yeah. And you, you do feel like, you know, the media of mid sanctuary America is so much of men and women eyeing each other across this massive gender no man's land and looking at each other like livestock. And then when people are nostalgic for that, it's like, hmm, I wouldn't bother.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:05Sarah Marshall?

  We, we're doing a great job getting as far away from that as we possibly can, I really think.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, I think when we talk about this like body ideal in ballet, it's like, it's a reflection of that culture. It's not separate from it.

• 46:20Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Because there's nothing biomechanical in ballet that means that someone has to be thin to do it. Like, that's not real. That's, I think people maybe think that, but it, it's just not true.

• 46:31Sarah Marshall?

  I feel like this is your big bombshell of this episode, unless you have a bigger one.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:36Sarah Marshall?

  For later.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  No, I think this is it. I think this is the heart of it. And it's, it's something that I wish more people understood because it's like ballet is a reflection of the culture and the time in which it's made. It's been around for a very long time. It's been through so many different body ideals and trends, you know, it's like, it went from being something that was popularized by like, you know, little, little fancy boys in court. And now it's like, uh, you know, the domain of these like incredible like Amazon-esque ballerinas. And I think the idea that it's separate from culture is, is wrong. And so, you know, one of the things that was a big bombshell for me personally, when I started to go to ballet class, was I had only seen professional ballet up to that point.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Like I had only gone to see Oregon Ballet Theater or Pacific Northwest Ballet. And when you go to see professional ballet companies, you're gonna see a certain body type, right? And so you're gonna get the impression that that is who does ballet. That's the only person who can do ballet. That's what you have to look like to do ballet. And then when I started going to these recreational classes, I realized it wasn't true because I remember going to class and looking around the room and realizing that there was actually a huge diversity of body types and gender expression and, and all kinds of, you know, people of different life experiences who you don't typically see on stage.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  And I will say even today, like whenever I'm in an open ballet class, the person with the best technique is almost never the smallest person in the room. It's often like a kind of harried mom of three on her day off, you know?

• 48:15Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  And who just looks like a normal lady if you saw her on the street.

• 48:18Sarah Marshall?

  Which is true of skating as well, frequently I would say. And, and you know, not as someone who skates a ton, but I will say, I will be sad for the rest of my life about the end of Lloyd Center because we've lost the only skating rink in Portland and in the Portland area.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  That's so awful.

• 48:38Sarah Marshall?

  And that was such an amazing place for the people who skated and loved skating, and also for people like me who love to watch people skate, much like Carole Schultz. Also love to watch people skate and also was a good skater and played hockey and also loved rollerblades. And I guess probably more people should know that, too. Because like you would see people at the Lloyd Center rank who just like looked like that. They were on their lunch break from working at Staples.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Sarah Marshall?

  You know, and we're just like skating up a storm or just like people from all walks of life and all these different body types and people who you would not like see cast in like the skating movie, but who are just like skating their asses off, you know, to use it in the Footloose sense.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, I think, I think part of this is a ballet problem, right? It's like, when you see a company and everyone looks a certain way, it's not because like ballet gave them that body type, or because they had to look like that to do ballet. It's because the company wanted people who looked like that to be in the company. That's, it's an aesthetic choice. It's always an aesthetic choice.

• 49:45Sarah Marshall?

  And what's that about the sort of the aesthetics of like the body doing?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:50Sarah Marshall?

  The dance. Yeah. And do people feel they have a right to defend that reasoning?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  They do.

• 49:57Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  I think it's changing. Historically, there's been a huge emphasis on the idea of the line, which is like the lines that your body makes when you're doing ballet. And there's this myth that your lines are easier to see if you're thin, but I don't think that's true. You know, it's like, I have eyes. I can see someone's technique.

• 50:17Sarah Marshall?

  I think the naked eye can probably see a not thin person dancing.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I can tell you, like, I take class with people who have incredible technique, who don't look like that, right? Like, who don't fit that ideal. And I can see them just fine. And I'm often like, I'm jealous of that person. Like, that person has amazing technique, right?

• 50:38Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Not in a bad way, but in a way that like inspires me. And you can see it. Like, if someone has good technique, the technique will come through. It doesn't matter what you look like.

• 50:48Sarah Marshall?

  Right.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  And so that, to me, is just kind of like one of the great big lies that people who gatekeep ballet love to tell themselves. It's like, oh, well, we need thin people so we can see the line better. No, you can see the line on anyone. If you have the right training, you can have good lines. It's like, and, and if you're, if you're just a thin person who's badly trained, you're not going to have good lines. That's really what it's about. And then the other thing I would say is, there is this emphasis on the corps de ballet, which is the, it translates directly into body of the ballet. This is like the lowest rank in most classical ballet companies. It's the sort of group of women that you will see on stage throughout a story ballet like Swan Lake or Giselle. They kind of are

• 51:32Speaker 01

  there to express the themes and the emotions of the ballet. So that's something you really see in Swan Lake with the corps de ballet. And they're often asked to do uniform movements as part of this choreography. And so one of the arguments I have heard for having like aesthetic uniformity among your dancers is so that the corps de ballet looks like they match.

• 51:54Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  But that is a huge problem, because that also means that like, I have heard that used as a justification for having like not very diverse ballet companies, right?

• 52:05Sarah Marshall?

  Right. And you know, and why do they need to match?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Sarah Marshall?

  Is my next question after that.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Well, they don't need to match. And my response to that is like, it's the same with the line. It's like, I don't need the people I'm watching on stage to look identical. I need them to all have good technique. I need them to be unified by their technique. And so if you're watching the professional dancers, they all have good technique. It doesn't matter what they look like. Like, they're gonna look uniform because of that, because of their training. And so this even extends to, to things like, like shoe color and tight color. For a long time, you could only get pink point shoes, which if you are a dancer of color, that breaks your line.

• 52:51Sarah Marshall?

  Right. So you're being kept out of the, I want to call it the sport. You're being kept out of the art by the aesthetics, the art has chosen for itself.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Or you're being asked to wear pink tights and pink shoes and fit into this mold that is this like, this white supremacist aesthetic.

• 53:10Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, which is like specifically designed to not fit you.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so the part of this that I have found the most like troubling is when I hear justifications for like not having a diverse company. That's like, okay, well, everybody needs to match. And then you're also telling people of color that they can only wear pink tights and pink, in pink shoes, like make it make sense, you know? It's not about the uniformity. It's about excluding people. So I think this is where this aesthetic choice comes from. But I think it's also like, if you're someone who has the training and has the technique, it's going to be visible, no matter what. And we don't need to be like cramming people into boxes because of that. And actually, like, I will say, I would rather watch someone who maybe doesn't look like they have perfect

• 53:55Speaker 01

  technique, or doesn't, doesn't look like they fit a perfect ballet ideal, because often, those dancers are more interesting anyway. Like, they have an interesting quality that's fun to watch.

• 54:06Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Well, and why do you think that these standards can find their way to a sport, a sport or an art form, and just get so deep in there that no one even thinks to question it? I mean, is that what you think has become of ballet since this kind of like mid-century ballroom days?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that, now, I will say, like, this is less true in recreational spaces. I actually think recreational spaces are kind of saving ballet from itself right now.

• 54:36Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, talk about that.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I guess what I would want to talk about in regards to that is like, okay, so I take class every week at a studio in Seattle, that is extremely body positive and welcoming and friendly, queer friendly, like, all the things you like probably don't associate with ballet, you'll find in that studio. And we have a show that we put on twice a year, where they basically like, anyone who takes class at the studio can register, and you work with a choreographer and they like, set a new piece on you in a group, and then you perform. And it's really interesting to go see that show, because it's the only time in my life, I feel like, I mean, outside of certain like contemporary

• 55:21Speaker 01

  dance spaces, like I should caveat this heavily, but it's, if you're seeing ballet, like, this is one of the only times I feel like I get to see ballet where it's like, a huge variety of body types on stage, life experience, gender expression, identity, things like that. And it's really powerful. It's like really powerful to see that. And it's funny, because it's like, when I describe it to my friends and family who come see it, it sounds like it's going to be kind of like a tragic adult ballet recital. But it's funny, it's, it sells out every year. And part of that is because there's a lot of like very supportive, like dance boyfriends and husbands and friends and family members and partners who come to see the show. But I think also part of it is that there is

• 56:05Speaker 01

  something really compelling about seeing someone who looks like you, dancing, you know? It's like, you can see yourself in those people. And it's really moving, you know? I think, and it's something that you only see, right now, I think you tend to see it more in amateur dance than professional, because people who come to amateur dance tend to not have the same background. Or they, you know, maybe they were pursuing something professional when they were younger, but like, somewhere along the way, they fell off of it or got kicked out. And so you're getting to see people who are there because they love it. And it's not something that has any kind of like, real gatekeeping around it. Whereas I feel like in the professional ballet world, there is this real culture

• 56:47Speaker 01

  of like obedience and standing in line and like being polite and following instructions and things like that. And I think that makes it really easy for these really harmful dynamics to emerge and be perpetuated, because there's not a lot of questioning of what's going on.

• 57:03Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm. What do you wish that people knew, that you think they, you know, they have misconceptions about? And I've been talking about that this whole time, but what, what do you really wish people knew?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  I wish people knew that if, if you want to do ballet, ballet is for you. And I think that there's this idea that, you know, like we're saying, like, you have to look a certain way, you have to have had a certain life experience, you have to be young. But it's not true. Like, none of that is true. You can start at any age, and it can just be part of your life. I came to it, I came to it extremely late. Like, I didn't start until I was almost 30. And it was really hard, but there was just something about it that I felt like I connected with as soon as I stepped into a studio for the first time. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, this is a thing that I'm going to be doing. And I think that a lot of people dream of doing ballet as children, but like, maybe

• 58:00Speaker 01

  they can't afford lessons, or they're just like, are not the right life circumstances to do it. And I do think that there are these like really incredible communities where you can start as an adult, and you can make progress, and you can grow, and you can like discover things about yourself. And you can wear a tutu, you can go on point. Like, all of these things are possible. It's not, it's not easy. It's hard. It takes a lot of like discipline and effort. But I think that if, I, I always tell people, like, if you have a ballet dream, you can do it. You know, like, if I can do it with no dance training when I was 30, like, you can also do it. And it's available to you, and you should feel free to pursue it or try it. And not to feel like it's something that

• 58:44Speaker 01

  is only for the people who have been doing it since they were three.

• 58:48Sarah Marshall?

  Why do you think, because this is something that I think has held me back, and I think is, is holding back a lot of people. Why do you think we have this idea that we owe excellence?

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:01Sarah Marshall?

  To ourselves, or the world, or somebody, or something? You know, this idea that if we're going to pursue something, we have to be great at it, or become great at it, or we have to be gifted in some way, even though it's kind of, you know, makes a little less sense to think about being gifted as an adult. But that, yeah, this, maybe this is a bit of a millennial fixation, because, I don't know, the gifted child industries were at their height when we were growing up, possibly. Because I think maybe, we maybe want to dismiss that feeling in ourselves and call it egomaniac. But really, I think it's the idea, not that we even- Need or want to be particularly great at something, but that if we're not great at something, someone will be mad at us for spending time on it.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that really resonates with me. I feel like I have spent like the bulk of my early adulthood, kind of reckoning with my own perfectionist tendencies. And I remember like growing up, if I wasn't good at something instantly, I didn't want to do it. It was like, this is, this is like, why I don't play board games, right? It's like, also because I can't listen to the instructions. But I have some real perfectionist tendencies. And ballet was actually the first thing I ever did, where I tried it. And I was like, I am objectively very bad at this. But I was curious enough to keep going. I was like, okay, well, I'm

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  bad at this, but I want to get better. And I guess I have to be bad at it if I'm gonna get better at it. And it's interesting, because it was like, people always talk about ballet as this thing that like, you know, it's your people are so perfectionistic about it. And I think that's probably true. I know for me, like, I'm all, I always want to get better. Like, I always want to learn more. But I also think like, it forced me to really reckon with my perfectionism, because I realized that if I was clinging to my perfectionism so tightly that I wasn't even like, willing to try and like, feel silly and be bad at something, then I would like, be missing out.

• 1:01:06Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  So that's one thing that I've taken from ballet that has nothing to do with ballet, which is just like, I think it's really an important life skill to be able to be bad at something.

• 1:01:17Sarah Marshall?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  And like, stick with it, because something about it feels intriguing to you.

• 1:01:23Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. Or to choose what you like regardless of your ability to be, uh, liked to buy it in return.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I had a friend recently who asked me, like, she was thinking about exploring dance classes. And I'm always like, such an evangelist for it. But we were talking about it. And she was kind of like, well, you know, like, how do I don't really know if I want to do it. And I was like, well, you don't have to make a decision. Like, you can just go and try it.

• 1:01:53Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  And see how it feels in your body. And if you, if you feel some sort of like, spark or connection with it, then that's your answer. If you go and you're like, you know what, I don't want to stare at myself in a mirror for 90 minutes, and this feels bad to me, then don't do it. Right? If it hurts, don't do it. But I think, to me, there's been so much value in just like, doing something that I'm not naturally good at, and seeing that you can get better at it. And also, like, I will say, I came to ballet after I had been a distance runner for a long time. And I was a good distance runner. It's something that does come more naturally to me. But I had a really unhealthy relationship to it sometimes, because I was so competitive, and I was so anxious about it. And it was such

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  a trigger for my anxiety and my perfectionism. And what's interesting is like, ballet, sort of counterintuitively, I came to it, and I was like, well, I guess I can only be curious about this, because like, I'm not going to pick it up quickly. It's gonna be a struggle. But I really want to do it. And in that way, it was something that actually, like, helped me realize that I could have a physical and artistic practice that I didn't have to be good at, and that I could do just for fun. And it's interesting, it's like, there's that quote about beginner's mind, that's like, there are many possibilities in the mind of a beginner, but there are less when you've mastered something. That's like, a butchering of it. But that's largely the quote. And what's interesting about ballet

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  is I think that's actually not true. Like, I think, I think when you're beginning, you can't see the possibilities. You just have to kind of like, trust. And then the more you do it, the more possibilities emerge. But I do think that, like, if you feel that little spark, it's worth pursuing, because like, you can't know where it's gonna go when you first start out. But I think if you trust it, it will take you somewhere really unexpected and interesting. And it's satisfying to go on that journey. I think that with the rise of more interest in recreational dance, people are really challenging those norms and those ideas, and showing that there's like, a different way to do it, that's more welcoming and healthy. And, you know, a space that is evolving, right?

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Like ballet is an old art, it's been around for a long time. And I think it's evolving, whether people want it to evolve or not.

• 1:04:13Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, just like skating.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yes, just like skating, just like our blade angels, you know?

• 1:04:21Sarah Marshall?

  They tried to hold back the tide of queer skaters, and lo, they could not.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Well, and lo, they were, lo, they were punished, because...

• 1:04:28Sarah Marshall?

  Punished by excellence.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Punished by excellence. We have a glut of fantastic queer skaters. And like, I would even say, like, that is showing up in the ballet world, too. Like, we're more and more, we're having, we're seeing queer themes in, in ballets that are being produced everywhere, and more of these challenges to its old, really gendered standards. So I think we're in a really exciting time. And I think that, you know, I think that Timothy Chalamet is not totally wrong about ballet. Like, I think that, as much as like, people were upset by what he said, like...

• 1:05:06Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. I feel like we were more annoyed with him generally at that point. And then he said something that allowed us to be like, hey,

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  How dare you?

• 1:05:13Sarah Marshall?

  That was way out of line. And also, you're very annoying right now.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. But like, I think that, I think there is some concern. Like, if you read the Jennifer Homans book, there's some concern that like, ballet is, is over and dying and dead. And I'm just like, um, I think maybe the bad parts of it could be, and then we could take it from there.

• 1:05:34Sarah Marshall?

  What if the parts of it that are harmful and dangerous and cause eating disorders could be allowed to die quietly, or loudly if need be, and then we could like, do the fun parts?

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think we see it in gymnastics, too. Like, I think we are seeing much healthier norms develop in gymnastics, where we're seeing older, older gymnasts, healthier gymnasts who are succeeding, and they're not like, forced to be little girls forever. And

• 1:06:01Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  So I think all of these very feminine coded sports, like, they're shifting. And I think they're shifting in really positive ways that are only going to bring more people into them. Because it's like, when you realize that ballet is for you, it can be life changing. And then it's just, it's like, the sport changes too. And I think that sports are supposed to evolve.

• 1:06:24Sarah Marshall?

  Right. And they don't have to be defined forever by the people who have used them to abuse their power and abuse the, you know, often disenfranchised girls who are doing them.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Sarah Marshall?

  There's an episode to be done about Carrie Strug at the Atlanta Olympics, and, you know, landing a vault onto a sprained ankle, because there's a, there's a twist there, because she didn't need to do it. But they made her do it anyway. Why?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I know. It's...

• 1:06:55Sarah Marshall?

  Like, they, like, we already had the win. It was already in the bag. And they're, and it's possible for it to have been like, confusing at the time, or kind of a margin call. But the point is that she had to go re-injure, an injury by doing a fault onto it. And she did it, because she had to, because they told her to.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  I know. Well, and that goes into the obedience culture, right? It's like, this idea that like, you, you have to sacrifice everything, including your body, for this thing that you're doing. And it's, I'm always like, what, for what, though? Because when I go see ballet, or gymnastics, or figure skating, I would much rather...

• 1:07:33Sarah Marshall?

  See people who aren't traumatized.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to see someone who's like, injured mentally and physically, struggling through a routine they don't want to do. Like, I want to see someone like Alyssa Lu, who like, exudes joy when she skates, you know? And you're like, oh, she wants to be there. She's there because she wants to be.

• 1:07:49Sarah Marshall?

  Right. That was a moment that really blew my mind, where it was, it was this beautiful, joyful skate. And that was what everybody said about it. It was right, they, they'd never seen someone look so happy.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Sarah Marshall?

  Doing an Olympic free skate. And then it felt like this moment where it was like, wait, wow, yeah, we haven't seen that. Why didn't we think to expect to maybe see that? And then it felt like, I hope skating officials were like, oh, do people like that?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It turns out, they do.

• 1:08:22Sarah Marshall?

  Turns out, we do.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  We really like that.

• 1:08:25Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. And I think maybe, maybe that's like, the revelation I'm going to take from this is that ballet, skating, gymnastics, like, these things we've mentioned, and like, plenty of others, like, these are institutions that have had and deserve to have major scandals, and that also people within these worlds have tried to cover up for way too long, out of the belief that they needed to protect the discipline by hiding abuses of power within it. And that's not true. The truth is that if the truth comes out, then the essence of what the thing is, gets to be a much bigger part of how we experience it. And something that has come to be defined by abuses of power doesn't have to necessarily stay that way. Like, what a great idea.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Right. And then it also means that, like, for the athletes, it's, it's healthier, right? It's better for them. It's a safer training environment. And it's also better for, for those of us who love these art forms and these sports.

• 1:09:23Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  To feel like they are more values aligned when we see them.

• 1:09:26Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Because people actually like for their entertainment to involve people who are happy to be doing what they're doing, which seems to get lost in the mix sometimes.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's mainly, that's often why people are drawn to these sports in the first place. It's like,

• 1:09:40Sarah Marshall?

  Right.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't spend eight hours a day in a ballet studio, because you're kind of mid on ballet, you know?

• 1:09:47Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, I mean,

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Something, something drew you to it. Well, I mean, maybe that happens. I don't know.

• 1:09:52Sarah Marshall?

  Happened to Maureen.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Oh, it really did.

• 1:09:55Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  She had the feet, but not the heart.

• 1:09:58Sarah Marshall?

  She didn't have the heart. Yeah. Sometimes he got the feet, but not the heart. Sometimes he got the heart, but not the feet. I say, let your heart decide. Your feet can, I don't know, feet can go in your shoes.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Listen, feet, feet can also be trained. So if you have the heart, but not the feet, just do it anyway. And if you don't have the heart, that's fine. Plenty of people have amazing arches, and they don't dance. And

• 1:10:22Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  And that's fine. That's okay.

• 1:10:25Sarah Marshall?

  Megan, you also have a really fun newsletter.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have a newsletter. It's called Burbank Industries. You can find it at meganburbank.substack.com. And I actually write a lot about ballet in that newsletter. So if anyone is like, no, but really, like, please tell me how you felt going through an intensive.

• 1:10:44Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  You can, you can find all the information there.

• 1:10:47Sarah Marshall?

  I think there are some quietly ballet curious people listening right now.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  I sure hope so. I really do think they're everywhere. And I, I want them to come talk to me.

• 1:10:55Sarah Marshall?

  I wonder if this is like, are there also people who are like, and I should really get into volunteer firefighting, now that we're talking about this kind of thing?

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  I hope so, too. I mean, I think,

• 1:11:06Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  It doesn't have to be ballet. But I think, well, we do need more, more firefighters in our states specifically. But I think, I think having something like this, that's not your job, that's not your identity, but that's something that makes you feel really present in your brain and your body, that's good. We could all use more of that.

• 1:11:26Sarah Marshall?

  Right. Yeah. And that, you know, you don't owe excellence to anybody, but you do owe it to yourself to offer yourself these experiences.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  And honestly, it can be excellent to be bad at something.

• 1:11:37Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. Thank you, Megan.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, Sarah.

• 1:11:52Sarah Marshall?

  And that is our episode. Thank you to the people who helped make this show. Miranda Zickler is our producer and editor, and Nicole Ortiz is our administrative assistant. We'll see you in two weeks.