Can I Be Loved?

A young woman writes to Esther asking why she is interested in someone emotionally unavailable. Despite efforts to break this pattern, she realizes that some of her behaviors are rooted in a deep sense of control and the need to feel worthy of her parents' sacrifices. Esther walks her through this need for control and how to reclaim a sense of independence. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi Esther. My question to you is: Do you think it's possible to change who you're attracted to? I'm a 26-year-old woman and I've been single for five years. I feel like I have often in the past been attracted to people who are emotionally unavailable and it's taken me a long time to realise those patterns. Your podcast has really helped me to understand the dynamics between my parents. Growing up, they were very bad at communicating and I think over time, the ways in which they rejected each other led them to want to be independent and self-sufficient

• 0:42Speaker 00

  and essentially not have much of a relationship anymore. I think this has really impacted me in the way that I search for people. Recently, I've felt that I have felt attracted to more available people, but there's a lot of fear and I think I'm not able to let my desire overcome the fear of being vulnerable, truly vulnerable with somebody who's available.

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• 2:36Esther Perel?

  Let's pick up really at the end of the sentence that seems to have been cut in the middle. I have tried to open myself up to people who actually welcome me, but that is very scary.

• 2:52Esther Perel?

  Let's start right there.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, why does it scare me so much?

• 2:58Esther Perel?

  And what scares you?

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think there's fear for myself and I think there's fear for the other person as well. I think there's maybe a sense of guilt about entering into something when I don't feel completely sure about how it's gonna end. I think there's a fear of being trapped in something, a long term. I think that's a fear for myself, that I like someone and over time, I don't like them anymore. Being trapped in something sad or unfulfilling, that scares me a lot.

• 3:38Esther Perel?

  And that is where I look at my parents and how they were trapped and stuck?

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:47Esther Perel?

  Tell me.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess the communication has been really bad throughout my childhood.

• 3:55Esther Perel?

  Between them?

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, between them. I think we all experienced, me and my siblings experienced a lot of love and attention, but I think they definitely didn't know how to understand each other. My mum is the pursuer, like provoker, and my dad is like the withdrawing one. And both seem to be playing out ways that they have been neglected or were upset and hurt as children with each other.

• 4:32Esther Perel?

  And she would pursue him in order to argue? She would pursue him requesting more connection? She would provoke him? What's the dance? If I was a camera on the wall in your house, what would I see?

• 4:51Speaker 00

  I think that the provoking would come in the form of seeking support for something, but in a way that's really non-productive.

• 5:02Esther Perel?

  Such as?

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Seeking help with housework or a decision or wanting collaboration, basically.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  A lot of the things I remember would be being used almost as a sort of like buffer between two people. So it wouldn't necessarily be direct towards him. It would be like a question posed to me, if that makes sense.

• 5:34Esther Perel?

  Not yet.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:39Esther Perel?

  But I'm asking it to you with more precision because you give off the vibe that things are, on the one hand, etched in your body and on the other end, they are rather blank.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:56Esther Perel?

  It's like you're freezing on me.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I am.

• 6:00Esther Perel?

  And not on me, I mean, it's not doing something to me, but the closer you get to it, the more frozen you start to feel. And to the point where suddenly you can't remember anything.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's just what happened now.

• 6:14Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. And maybe that is more important than whatever else we are gonna talk about because you're trapped inside yourself. You're trapped inside a past that feels totally vague and nebulous because it feels so painful.

• 6:31Esther Perel?

  And so, freeze is often one of our reactions. It's fight, flight, freeze, fix and fawn, you know? But we freeze because that way we can tune out. We can numb ourselves to the noise, to the fear, to the intensity of what's happening around us.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:58Esther Perel?

  And when you say, "I prefer to be with someone who's unavailable so that there's a preserved distance between me and that person", in a way, you're saying, "Because if I do go inside and I open that up",

• 7:16Esther Perel?

  that word, "I'm gonna be trapped", which you said a few times, I'm not only sure that you would be trapped with the person, but that you would be trapped in the frozenness that helped you survive, but that at the same time is not allowing you to connect with anyone.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's happened before also. I remember that I was seeing somebody and we had a lot of conversations where my mind went blank.

• 7:52Esther Perel?

  And when you go blank,

• 7:55Esther Perel?

  you have thoughts, you have melodies, you have colours, you have just physical sensations, what happens?

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, just physical panic.

• 8:08Esther Perel?

  And where? In the body?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Chest, yeah.

• 8:12Esther Perel?

  Keep your hand there, it's okay. It makes a difference when we can place our hand, a caring hand, a gentle hand, in a place that just completely shuts down.

• 8:30Esther Perel?

  And then if you can breathe inside your hand and feel your chest expand

• 8:36Esther Perel?

  and don't force yourself to remember anything, because your body is remembering. You're having plenty of implicit memory stored in your body that remembers on the spot. The more blank you go, and the more your body remembers.

• 8:54Esther Perel?

  It tightens up and it holds it all, but it's right there.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  Do you remember blanking at home?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  I don't, but then I think,

• 9:09Speaker 00

  like my sister remembers a lot of things that I don't remember.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  This is also really interesting because my dad has talked about the fact that he has a huge blank in his childhood.

• 9:26Esther Perel?

  And does he describe anything more than the blank? Does he describe what he needed to blank from?

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, his parents were splitting up and my gran had a nervous breakdown and left. She moved away. She didn't come back, but they were in contact after that.

• 9:46Esther Perel?

  How old was your dad?

• 9:49Speaker 00

  I think he was like 11 or 12 and he didn't talk for like a year or something.

• 9:58Esther Perel?

  And you remember one thing your sister remembered that you said, "Oh my gosh, how is it possible I completely forgot this one?"

• 10:13Speaker 00

  The same thing's just happening to me.

• 10:16Esther Perel?

  Good, I'm glad you're telling me.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't think right now.

• 10:26Esther Perel?

  Okay, just put the hand right back, it's fine.

• 10:32Esther Perel?

  It's fine. That entrapment,

• 10:37Esther Perel?

  that sense of, "I gotta get out of here. I can't take this.

• 10:44Esther Perel?

  I need to tune all of this out",

• 10:49Esther Perel?

  must have been really intense.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  Were you 11 years old too?

• 10:59Speaker 00

  I mean, there's been arguing throughout my childhood. I don't know, it feels all similar.

• 11:11Esther Perel?

  It's okay, you don't have to force

• 11:16Esther Perel?

  and produce something just because I ask a question.

• 11:24Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 11:36Esther Perel?

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• 14:55Esther Perel?

  When you shut down,

• 14:58Esther Perel?

  do you turn to nature, food, music, movement? Any of them, or others?

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably moving, moving.

• 15:10Esther Perel?

  Moving, moving.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:13Esther Perel?

  With music, or...?

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, with music too. I'm a musician.

• 15:18Esther Perel?

  And is there a song that often comes into your head? In the midst of blank? Or any songs?

• 15:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I hear "Could You Be Loved?" by Bob Marley.

• 15:33Esther Perel?

  So it's one particular song that comes up? And kind of fills the space?

• 15:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, sometimes it's like made-up music as well.

• 15:46Esther Perel?

  Because the music gives you the emotion without giving you the story. It has its powerful effect.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  It's something I used to listen to a lot growing up, so I wonder whether that's... Like, in the house, it would be in the house. I think it's a lot harder talking about it than I thought it would be because I view my childhood as very loving, and it feels like blaming talking about my parents.

• 16:23Esther Perel?

  You've been very clear that they were very caring and loving to all three of you.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:32Esther Perel?

  But the little girl who hears fighting around her

• 16:39Esther Perel?

  doesn't have the reasoning that the adults have now.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:45Esther Perel?

  And so it's more visceral? The same loving people are being not very loving with each other? And that's scary.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:56Esther Perel?

  And a number of wires get entangled. "Oh, adult love is messy." "Oh, adult love is a trap." "Oh, adult love, when you no longer love the person, what the fuck do you do?"

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you feel like it's your fault also because you know that you're the thing that's attaching them? Like, you're the reason? They're sticking around for you, or it feels like they're sticking around for you? And I think I was aware of that.

• 17:40Esther Perel?

  That your parents stuck together for the children? And that the other person would stick around because they wouldn't know how to leave? You know, what's interesting is that in your version of your story, other people have no agency. It's as if you're making all the decisions, and they are like hapless, helpless people, you know, characters of somebody else's plot. That's not necessarily the way this goes.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  That is true. Recently, they came to stay with me, and it felt worse than normal. Yeah, I feel really responsible. I worry about what's happening when I'm not there.

• 18:27Esther Perel?

  And is there a part of you that says, "I cannot connect with anybody else until my parents are okay"?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's exactly it. I feel like I need to fix it and to help them learn and change, rather than be stuck in habits.

• 18:52Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I feel responsible for my parents' relationship in an over-responsible way. I can't grow up and live and have my own life and my own relationships until I know that they are, in quote, "fixed", or that they are fine, or that they're not gonna chew each other up.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's weird also because I do think they need each other at the same time. You know, it feels gray. It doesn't feel obvious that people would be better off alone, without each other. I don't think they understand how much they rely on each other in terms of the codependence kind of thing. I guess I'm saying I fear what it would be like to be truly independent.

• 19:49Esther Perel?

  What it would be like for you to be truly independent, or for them?

• 19:54Speaker 00

  I guess, oh, three.

• 19:58Esther Perel?

  Yes, they may be codependent on each other, but so are you on them, in a way, right? You cannot be grounded in yourself until you know that they are fine.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:10Esther Perel?

  Are you close to your siblings?

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:14Esther Perel?

  Do you discuss any of it?

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I talked to my sister about it. It used to be that she didn't want to talk about it. She viewed talking about it as like a betrayal, I think.

• 20:29Esther Perel?

  Everyone amongst you seems to feel that if they expose the challenges between the parents, they are being illegitimate, or they are betraying, or they are inflicting guilt. I think what you're highlighting, if I understand it well, and your sister too, is that all of you are acutely, acutely aware that your parents, in some way...

• 21:06Esther Perel?

  Compromised on their relationship in order to be for the children.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:11Esther Perel?

  And that you owe them.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Something my dad has been open about was that because of the way he grew up, something that he sees as like a big achievement in his life is having a stable family unit. Like, that's his success. I think he feels that that's, that's what success is.

• 21:39Esther Perel?

  That he did not inflict upon his children that which had been done to him.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think if there's an expression of negative emotions of, of any kind, it sort of undermines that. It would shake his worldview and view of the family.

• 21:59Esther Perel?

  As in, I did everything I could to not have my children go through the chaos and the abandonment and the terror that I went through.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:14Esther Perel?

  So everything should be fine for them. How can they have any troubling experience? Any fear, frustration, hurt, sadness, loss? Since I made sure that the worst thing that could happen didn't happen.

• 22:33Esther Perel?

  No other feeling should appear after that.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think his coping mechanism is that he will pretend things are fine until they are fine. And I, I think it's this sense that

• 22:51Speaker 00

  you tell yourself you're content and then you will be content. Like, there's nothing crazily dramatic going on in comparison to

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  his experience. There's stability and that's contentment.

• 23:11Esther Perel?

  To which you say?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  To which I say, I want more for myself, so much more than stability and like continuation. You know, it's, it's not active, it's not curious, it's not love to me. It doesn't feel like a relationship without the type of communication and understanding. Like, what is it? Where is the relationship? That's how it feels to me.

• 23:47Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 23:50Esther Perel?

  Who did you meet now?

• 23:53Esther Perel?

  Did you meet someone and that's why we're speaking today?

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Yes, I think so. I met someone who, it felt like a lot of things aligned and they seemed really open and like emotionally intelligent and et cetera. But it turned out that they were not wanting any kind of commitment. But it was sort of a slow, very slow filtering down of, of understanding that, not very transparent. But yeah, it was the sense that my subconscious had gone for an unavailable person again. Or someone who decided that they didn't want something but didn't tell me. And it was really frustrating because I felt like I tried really hard to not do that.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  And somehow did it again.

• 24:48Esther Perel?

  But my first thought about what you're telling me is that you think that what you did again was unconsciously go for someone who is not available. I think that what you did again is think that the only person with agency is you.

• 25:11Esther Perel?

  And that the other person just is happenstance. As if they have nothing to do with this. Maybe you chose and you actually picked up on the signs that were out there and that's very, very clear. And that doesn't mean that you obsecratively went and found that your unconscious is in charge, leading you into obstructed roads. When you think consciously that you finally are actually meeting someone who would be open. And that person may have presented themselves indeed as open. And then decided for whatever reason

• 25:54Esther Perel?

  that that's not what they wanted. But that doesn't mean that that's what you secretly went for.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:02Esther Perel?

  So this is the second or third time that I'm thinking, why does she put everything on her? Why does she think she's the only one who has, holds the wheel here, who has a sense of action and agency? And the other people just kind of don't have any say or will or drive of their own.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do have a strong illusion of control over everything and the responsibility. Yeah.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 26:57Esther Perel?

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• 30:25Esther Perel?

  I can understand even why you would shut down. If someone feels that excessive sense of responsibility and control and decision making, the only time it stops is when you shut down. You don't know how to stay engaged without taking everything on top of you.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's true.

• 30:50Esther Perel?

  You understand? The minute you enter in and you're engaged and you're present, you take everything on your shoulders.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really true. I've been really struggling recently with seeking support from people in my circles. Like, as in saying something if I would like something to change. And I do the whole thing in my head and resolve it in my head already. Like, control the whole situation and resolve it and push it back.

• 31:25Esther Perel?

  Me, myself, and I have made the decision.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's safer for me to feel I'm in control of everything.

• 31:39Esther Perel?

  To be in control of everything or to feel that the entire responsibility is with you is not the same as to be independent. Independent doesn't mean alone. It means able to hold on to yourself while also connected to someone else.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:08Esther Perel?

  It's a very different definition of independence, and it's probably the biggest challenge in relationships, is how we negotiate attachment and authenticity. In connection with myself, but also in connection with you.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:27Esther Perel?

  So I don't hear your parents being independent.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  True.

• 32:34Esther Perel?

  And I'm not even sure that I hear you being, in that sense, independent, which is partly why you freeze. Or not why you freeze, but that's what happens when you freeze. Nobody can come in. All sense of responsibility stops. Bob Marley steps up on stage.

• 33:02Esther Perel?

  What's the sentence from his song that comes first?

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Could you be loved and be loved?

• 33:11Esther Perel?

  Could you be loved? It's that one, right?

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:18Esther Perel?

  And loved.

• 33:22Esther Perel?

  I'm wondering if part of the question is, could you be loved? I don't know. I was very much loved. But my parents sacrificed themselves for loving me. And that makes me feel that I need to be really worth it. I have to be flawless. I have to love them back. I have to thank them forever because they gave everything up for us and especially for me.

• 33:57Esther Perel?

  And so whenever I ask, can I be loved? I think about how lovable am I? How special am I? How deserving am I? Because in my experience, loving me comes together with not loving each other. What's the next sentence in the song?

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Don't let them fool you.

• 34:30Esther Perel?

  Don't let them fool you. And then?

• 34:36Speaker 00

  Or even try to school you.

• 34:39Esther Perel?

  How fitting.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, wow.

• 34:49Esther Perel?

  Your unconscious picked the perfect song.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I have had this affectionism since I was really young. That's also something I worry about is that I don't show truth, that I'm not authentic in general. Like, I try to present a polished version of something or like an acceptable version. Or when I was younger, it would be in the form of like, you know, do over-exercising and not eating properly. And it's come in lots of forms, like, you know, trying to be academically constantly the top. It's like having to prove something, isn't it?

• 35:36Esther Perel?

  Having to prove that I was worthy of the sacrifice that you made. I will be filling your bucket to the point of not knowing who I am because I'm trying to be what I think you want me to be.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I remember every time my dad would come to a show that I'm performing in, he'd be like, this is what I live for. And I used to hate it. I would hate it because I felt so much pressure. It feels like living vicariously through.

• 36:19Esther Perel?

  The show is your life, not my life. Yep, yep. And that pressure, when it goes acute and overdrive, it creates the shutdown. It's like a socket system that gets overcharged and then it just blows up.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:46Esther Perel?

  And you're young, and this is a developmental task for you. You know, this is the beginning of, I was recruited. But that doesn't mean that I want to keep that title.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it just feels like such a paradox because I know that it's completely out of love. You know what I mean?

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  Yes. But when my dad comes to see me sing and he says, this is what I live for, I will have a part of me that is pleased that he so enjoys it and that it means so much to him. But I'm going to keep another part for me.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:37Esther Perel?

  That I don't just sing to give meaning to his life, to fill in the bucket for him, to justify his choices and his sacrifices. That's there. But there's also another part of it that I think is I really love to do so.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  That it also belongs to me.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:09Esther Perel?

  How are you doing?

• 38:13Speaker 00

  It's hot. It's really hot. It feels wrong to

• 38:22Speaker 00

  see them in any other way, you know? But the older I get, the more I just see people instead of a perfect family.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  I don't know why I'm going to say what I'm going to say, but I have a feeling that if you said to your dad, it's hard for me to feel that I sing for myself when I know how much my singing needs to fill you up. I think your father would say, of course, it's for you. I don't think your dad is consciously wanting you to live for him or for him to live entirely through you.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:10Esther Perel?

  I think your dad wanted to change the story of his childhood. But I don't think he wanted to co-opt his kids to the extent that you feel trapped.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree.

• 39:25Esther Perel?

  And that may be worth a conversation with him. It will liberate you.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:34Esther Perel?

  The six-year-old and maybe even the 16-year-old felt that all her accomplishments belong to him or to them.

• 39:45Esther Perel?

  But the 26-year-old is beginning to create a different version of the story for herself.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I keep joking to everyone. I'm in my rebellious phase now.

• 39:59Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 40:03Esther Perel?

  Is there anything else that we need to add before we end today? We only have one hour, so.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Um, no, I think that it's a lot to think about already.

• 40:18Esther Perel?

  Thank you so much.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you too.

• 40:28Speaker 06

  This was an Esther Calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 41:13Speaker 06

  Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 41:29Speaker 03

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• 42:01Speaker 06

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.