Will I Always Be Alone?

He comes to Esther not with a singular question but with an overflow of words and unspoken truths. Betrayed by a once-supportive church and struggling to reconcile his desires with his emotions, he carries a loneliness that has followed him across continents. This session is all about naming. Naming the parts of his life, the feelings left unspoken, and the longings that ache in his heart. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Welcome.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 0:04Esther Perel?

  How are you?

• 0:05Speaker 01

  I'm shitting myself a little bit. Sometimes I think when you have so much to say, you forget how to speak.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  So I hope I will be able to say everything which I've had on my mind.

• 0:20Esther Perel?

  Okay. Shall we listen to your voice message?

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Hi Esther. My question for you is, where do I go from here? How do I remember who I am? When I feel like I've lost myself trying to find love. The dating scene has really consumed me so much and I actually don't know what I want anymore. I moved to a new country with a new language and in trying to make new connections in this new space and on a very clean slate. The language is a real difficulty. I feel like I'm not gay enough for the gay community and I'm definitely not straight enough for the church.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  So yeah, in trying to find relationships, friendships and a partner, I feel like I've sort of lost myself in, well, especially in dating, I've lost myself in the chaos of the whole dating scene. When I do meet someone who's nice, I'm quickly uninterested sexually and it seems like I'm only attracted sexually to guys who are either very unavailable, like they are straight or they're not looking for anything serious. Is it possible that I've adjusted my desires to fit into the system whereby I'm fine with emotionless intimacy? I'm also just tired of being the one who is

• 1:56Speaker 01

  always caring and looking out for and looking after someone. I would like to find a relationship where that is a mutual thing.

• 2:11Speaker 02

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• 3:42Esther Perel?

  I see you shake your head. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Say more.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I think it's just been quite frustrating because I thought arriving in this new big city compared to what I was used to, the opportunities to date, but also the success of dating would be so much higher. And what I've found is it's actually so much more difficult to date in a big city. And it saddens me a little bit listening to that voice note because I think there's a sense of me which is just tired, is tired of trying and is tired of the sort of like rejection of it and the addictiveness of it.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  And it feels like this sort of spiral that you don't want to step out of because you feel like that spiral is the only way to get where you want to be. But at the same time, you think maybe it's actually not the healthiest environment either. So you sort of don't know where to go from this. Should I jump off or should I keep running? But running this way isn't getting me anywhere either.

• 5:05Esther Perel?

  Can you tell me where you're running? What you're doing, how low you got?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Well, I'm from the UK, grew up in the UK. I moved to South Africa alone when I was like 18. And then I stayed there for 10 years. And a year and a half ago, I moved to France. And I've been there since. So French, obviously not my first language. Really hard when it comes to dating, when it comes to any kind of connections. I've found that a barrier to intimate connections. And Europe in general has been a real like mind fuck for me because just the way of life is really different. Even though this is where I was born,

• 5:55Speaker 01

  this individualistic approach to life is really different to what I had back home, as in back in South Africa. And for some reason, I've become just like that and

• 6:08Esther Perel?

  Like what?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  I cling to my solidarity. I don't want to go out. I find like meeting people and spending time with people exhausting. And I just want to be alone. But when I'm back home or I spend a lot of time in West Africa, community is my day to day. But something shifts in me when I get back to Europe and I just don't want to be around people for more than an hour, even friends. And I'm exhausted. I have to go home and sleep. And I don't know what it is that is so different there than what it was back home.

• 6:49Esther Perel?

  And you date? You socialize or you avoid it? Or do you get obsessive about it?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  I think when it comes to dating, I get obsessive about it. The only way I date is dating apps because I don't go to any places that are quote unquote gay, you know? I don't party, I don't, even friends I've made in the gym, they are all straight. And I don't really put myself in those environments in day to day life. Not because for lack of trying, but because those are like environments, I just don't naturally go to them. Like I wouldn't spend my nights at a bar and I wouldn't go to gay clubs or anything. So I feel like the easiest option for me in terms of dating is apps.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And that's like the addictiveness to dating is perhaps more the addictiveness to the apps rather than dating itself.

• 7:54Esther Perel?

  Where do you go?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  All of them, all of them. And I will download them and delete them and download them and delete them. Some weeks I can go on a date, maybe three times in that week. But yeah, it never seems to materialize.

• 8:11Esther Perel?

  Materialize meaning that you never see the man again?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if it's a date, like for instance, we go for a coffee or for a drink, I can think back to like a few weeks ago. Some dates were okay, but the language was a problem. Other dates, the language was fine, but I just didn't have any connection to this person. It didn't feel great. And then if it's just a hookup, it's just a hookup and you see them once and you never see them again. And so, yeah, it feels like either the dating or the hookups doesn't seem to materialize in the way that I wish they would. And I think what saddens me is that I think

• 9:00Speaker 01

  I'm becoming more and more like the culture, which is just intimacy without responsibility. And I don't want that, but it just feels like that's sometimes the only thing that's on offer.

• 9:15Esther Perel?

  Tell me about your life and your relationships in Africa and in South Africa.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I think firstly, they're smaller cities, so I can't walk five hundred metres in Cape Town without seeing someone I know. My life was really outward focused. I just made friends very easily. I felt really comfortable with strangers and I had built a really good community because I arrived there, I didn't know anybody. I arrived on my own and everything I had, I built. And it really felt like home and family and it was everything I ever wanted. Similarly, when I've been going to West Africa, I've been really fortunate to just find community and

• 10:06Speaker 01

  to have people who are just around me and it feels easy, it feels natural. And that's not something I have experienced in Europe.

• 10:16Esther Perel?

  And you had boyfriends, you had relationships, you lived with men or women or whoever.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I've only really had two relationships, uh, one was quite short, six months. And then I had a long relationship, which was about two and a half years. We did long distance for a year and then he moved to Cape Town for about eight months. And then that ended, uh, about, yeah, two years ago.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  So that was, yeah, it's been about two years or a year and a half since my last relationship.

• 10:50Esther Perel?

  And meeting was on your desire list in South Africa as well? And you did it the same way, dating apps or? And how did you live your romantic lives and sex lives?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  I kind of came to my sexuality a little bit late, so I didn't. By the time I had experienced sex, it was pretty soon after that I met my first boyfriend. So I was alone for a long time in South Africa. I felt like I had everything I ever wanted. And only then did I realise I would like to share this with someone and started to question whether that was a guy or a girl and quickly realised it was a guy.

• 11:40Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And then I had a longer relationship and I, I, we met, I think, on social media. It wasn't on a dating app, but yeah, when that ended, I felt like apps were the most simple way to meet. And in general, the type of guys I seem attracted to are perhaps the guys who you wouldn't necessarily be able to know whether they're gay or not. And I think, uh, that's why I fi- find that I'm more likely to find them on an app than in real life.

• 12:16Esther Perel?

  Explain.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  I think I'm, and I, I don't know if it's like a taboo subject or whatever. I, I'll just say anything, I guess. Uh, in general, I'm just more attracted to more masculine men, men who have similar interests to me. So they're sporty, they like to work out, they have a healthy lifestyle. They are more quote unquote masculine or discreet or however you wanna put it. And also feel that maybe I should mention, cause it's something I'm really like conscious about at the moment. I've only really dated black men and I'm so like aware of this.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  And I'm really conscious of maybe I should force myself to just like meet different kinds of guys and why is, why is this? Is it bad? Is there something like wrong with me for thinking this? And I don't know what it is. I mean, I feel like my world is mostly this. And so I feel like it's the life I chose when I moved to South Africa. And I feel like it just fits that world I had imagined so much more. I feel like, I don't know, it's like I feel more understood.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Cause I'll try and date like French guys and British guys and I just feel like they don't understand that part of my life. They have so many ideas about what it is and they, a- and they don't get it.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And I don't know whether I should be more open minded or whether it's bad that I feel this way.

• 14:10Esther Perel?

  I have a sense that many of the questions you're gonna ask today are not necessarily questions that need an immediate answer. They are questions that need to be said out loud.

• 14:27Esther Perel?

  It seems like you have held them in your head and sometimes you have spoken to yourself, but you've actually never heard yourself say these things to someone else.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I think, uh, I don't think I really have that outlet.

• 14:46Esther Perel?

  If you have a question and it is followed by what the hell is wrong with me, then you can't think. A real question has a question mark at the end and it's a real interrogation, it's an inquiry. I noticed that I've been drawn only to black men. I would like to understand that. There's something I feel, a certain understanding. Maybe there's also an erotization. Since I say that straight after I talk about masculinity, a certain type of masculinity, I seem to see it more in black men. I mean, you can judge it, but I mean, it won't help you understand it first or even know what to do with it.

• 15:29Esther Perel?

  So a lot of the things we're gonna talk about, we're gonna just first ask the questions, then we're gonna unpack it, see what we can understand from it. We'll do the best we can in the hour we have. You may not say everything you have to say, because a lot of these things are not things you've talked about, you know? You use the word dating, but and you even use the word hookup, but a lot of this is more than just dating. And when you say I kind of become the same kind of sex driven person than the people that I don't want to interact with, but I end up doing that. I say I want love, but I end up having high intensity, low emotion, hit and run sex.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:16Esther Perel?

  Is there some connection between your drawn, being drawn to black men and the kind of interactions that you have?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I think there's definitely that and I think there's.

• 16:29Esther Perel?

  There's definitely what, what piece of that?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  The fact that

• 16:36Speaker 01

  the type of sex or the type of interaction that I would have in a hookup versus what I had had in relationships. But I also think I'm just, I'm tired of the, I think there's this draw to

• 16:55Speaker 01

  intimacy where I don't have to be responsible for somebody else's emotions. And it's like, finally, I don't have to be the one to be responsible and to look after and all of these things. It's like, finally, I can just be selfish and just enjoy it for what it is and then it's done. I don't have to do all of the other parts which naturally come to me. And so when I'm in a relationship or if there's someone who's important in my life, I just naturally give those things. So it's like, finally, I can just be selfish with this.

• 17:39Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 17:50Esther Perel?

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• 18:30Esther Perel?

  QUO also has an optional built in A I agent who can handle after our calls, answer questions and even book appointments, even when your team is offline. Money is on the line, always say hello with QUO. Try QUO for free plus get twenty percent off your first six months when you go to quo.com/begin, spelled Q U O dot com slash begin.

• 18:57Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel. Approaching someone in their native tongue can open up a whole new dimension of communication. Even if you're not fluent yet yourself, it's the effort that counts and it makes the conversation feel even more meaningful to all parties involved. That's why Babbel is built around real life conversations, not random vocabulary lists or endless grammar drills. This summer I had to travel to Brazil to give a talk and I wanted to refresh my vocabulary and my fluency and my ease with the language. And I was reconnected with one of my favourite words in Portuguese, saudade,

• 19:38Esther Perel?

  that describes the feeling of deep longing for something that's gone or maybe something that never was. A word you find in so many of the bossa nova songs, so Babbel was there to help me with that. Start learning a new language today with Babbel. Right now, listeners can save up to sixty percent off at babbel.com/esther. That's babbel, B A B B E L dot com slash esther for up to sixty percent off. Rules and restrictions may apply.

• 20:12Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful, and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching, so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable, holiday-selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday,

• 20:58Esther Perel?

  go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 21:14Esther Perel?

  Tell me if I hear you well. When I become intimate, the way that I experience closeness involves for me a heightened sense of responsibility for the feelings of the other person.

• 21:32Esther Perel?

  And I forget myself. And the best way I have found so far to actually be what you call selfish or to be able to focus on me is an anonymous fuck.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I love someone, I become responsible for their happiness.

• 21:54Esther Perel?

  And where did you learn that?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I guess at home. In my family, I was the one who everyone goes through with their problems. And I didn't so much have the place where I was free to have my problems. I was the one who always had their shit together, always doing fine.

• 22:19Esther Perel?

  Who sucked up earlier?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  My sister.

• 22:24Esther Perel?

  How?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  She needed so much more time and support. And even from me, when I was younger, I became her sort of like everything, her support emotionally in every kind of way. And only when I moved to South Africa did I start finding a way to distance myself, build boundaries, and then slowly work back in her healthy relationship. But it was really, really unhealthy when I look back now, the level of dependency that she had on me. And it's so much better now.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  But I think, yeah, like I... I find my natural tendency, if I'm starting to like someone or starting to enter into a relationship,

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I want to go back to that way of showing love, which is just to do everything and anything I can to make sure they are happy.

• 23:34Esther Perel?

  Because I confuse love and care. If I can be needed, I will be loved because there was a tacit pact between me and one of my parents laid out for me. You've thought about this a lot.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  I think because it gave me purpose and reason for being in a family dynamic where I didn't perhaps feel 100% seen.

• 24:09Esther Perel?

  Yeah, 100% or much at all?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  I think I...

• 24:18Esther Perel?

  You've been lonely for a long time.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I knew I was loved, but lonely, yeah.

• 24:24Esther Perel?

  You've been lonely for a long time.

• 24:31Esther Perel?

  And there's a lot of sadness and a lot of grief.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Esther Perel?

  Okay, just take it in.

• 24:44Esther Perel?

  When you said I left at 18,

• 24:48Esther Perel?

  and you went far.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Couldn't go much further.

• 24:51Esther Perel?

  It wasn't just curiosity for a new place.

• 24:56Esther Perel?

  So I instantly asked myself, what did he run away from?

• 25:02Esther Perel?

  So you spoke about your sister. Was there parents? One parent, two parents, three?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, two parents. We had a pretty normal family for a long time. My parents only got divorced a few years ago. So at the time, it was pretty normal, but like very classic British family, I think. Like my dad is very emotionless. But they were very supportive and very loving. Like I'm very close to my mom now again, much, much, much closer. So yeah, I've definitely worked hard to rebuild those relationships again.

• 25:48Esther Perel?

  Does anyone in the family know how lonely you felt?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 25:56Esther Perel?

  But you're very close,

• 25:59Esther Perel?

  but you know them and they don't know you.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  They know nothing about me.

• 26:03Esther Perel?

  Right. Do they know you're gay?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  They know I'm gay. They did meet my ex, but they know only what I share. And I've never felt able to share anything. It's like, I said at the beginning of the call, when you have words on your lips, but they don't come out, that would be about anything. They would ask how my day was. I couldn't bring myself to say the words. It's like I've never been able to share anything. And I don't really know why.

• 26:36Esther Perel?

  Since you were a little boy?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been really secretive and only if emotions would get really, really, really high, then I would just break down and I would tell them something or part of it. And then I would close back up the next day. And only if it gets really, really bad would I not be able to hold it in anymore.

• 27:09Esther Perel?

  Do you think there may be a connection

• 27:14Esther Perel?

  between the silence that you learn to keep, the words on your lips that don't get to be expressed, and the challenges that you have around dating?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Perhaps. I try to, when I'm getting to know someone, to be as open and express myself as much as I can. And I find it easier in a partner than I do in, say, my family.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  But yeah, it definitely doesn't come naturally.

• 27:54Esther Perel?

  Do you express yourself physically more easily than verbally?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I do, yes. Because I'm just thinking of examples and I do. But like if I'm chatting to someone and getting to know someone, the first thing I want to do is say like, how can I make your day better? What do you need? What can I do? And I think like I'm really hoping and waiting for them to say, but what about you? Like, what do you need? What can I do for you? But yeah, it rarely comes. And then I find myself in the same situation. And then I'm like, ah, this is exhausting. I'm tired of this and let's just move on.

• 28:42Esther Perel?

  So you meet someone, and when you like them for a reason that isn't yet totally clear, you feel compelled to ask them, how can I take care of you? But in fact, what you're really yearning for is someone who says, how can I take care of you?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 29:12Esther Perel?

  Which means you're kind of setting it up to not get the very thing you want. And you convince people, I mean, I imagine, like you convinced your family, I don't need anything.

• 29:30Esther Perel?

  But then you feel invisible and unloved. And then you feel hurt. And then resentment. And then you quit.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  It's exactly like that, yeah. But I don't know how to show love in another way.

• 29:48Esther Perel?

  Ah, okay. Let's start with the beginning. I enjoy being with you.

• 29:55Esther Perel?

  I like spending my time with you. I love the connection that we're building. It doesn't have to follow instantly with...

• 30:05Esther Perel?

  I was gonna say it's almost like a false premise. Not that you don't want to take care of them, but you actually want something else more.

• 30:17Esther Perel?

  And you don't have to worry. You'll take care of people always in some way or that is inside of you. It's how you ask and make yourself and your presence matter.

• 30:32Esther Perel?

  When you would explode at home, was there a reaction?

• 30:39Esther Perel?

  I mean, how did this become so entrenched? There is no room for me. It's not just I have no room for my feelings. You say I didn't share a single thing. Not what I saw, not who I played with, nothing. And I became quite detached. And if you don't share anything of your life with anybody, then you become estranged from yourself.

• 31:08Esther Perel?

  Because we need witnesses.

• 31:11Esther Perel?

  And when you become estranged from yourself,

• 31:15Esther Perel?

  it also becomes easier to have

• 31:20Esther Perel?

  kind of anonymous sex nonstop. Because it's not just that they are not really what you think of as a subjective person, but you don't feel that you are either.

• 31:33Esther Perel?

  And so it deepens the emptiness.

• 31:38Esther Perel?

  Something hollow goes, has a fuck, comes home and feels more hollow. And then on occasion, you cry alone silently.

• 31:51Esther Perel?

  And you realize that there is someone inside there who feels deeply and who carries the consequences of being estranged from himself.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  I don't know where it's, um. You asked, uh, what happens when I explode?

• 32:15Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  I can't remember more than two or three times that it happened. Um, the last time it happened was more recently. I think they don't know what to say. They ask what's wrong. I mean, my dad especially, I wouldn't even bother to break down in front of him because I think he would just walk out the room. I think he wouldn't know what to do. But my mom would really try to understand and would really try and be there for me. But I also think it's hard for her because I think she doesn't know what to do in those situations because she's never really seen it.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  So it's, it's very rare that I have really broken down in front of them or anyone, really.

• 33:12Esther Perel?

  I mean, the goal is not for you to break down.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:16Esther Perel?

  But when you say I'm much closer with my mom now, what are you saying? I'm not fleeing her?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm actively trying to help her get to know me.

• 33:33Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And how are you doing that?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Uh, take her on holiday sometimes. Try to go home and visit her and go for coffee. And I try to text her every day and just, but it's a real like conscious decision because I also want her to know, you know? I do love, even if I'm not sharing much at all, I do love my parents, you know? I'm, I'm lucky to still have two parents and I do want to show that.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  But it definitely doesn't come naturally.

• 34:14Esther Perel?

  And from her to you?

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Any opportunity she gets to spend time with me, she will run at it.

• 34:22Esther Perel?

  Beautiful. Okay.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:25Esther Perel?

  And does she inquire about your well being? Does she ask about your life?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  She does a lot, but I shut it down.

• 34:33Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Uh, straight away. She will try and, uh.

• 34:37Esther Perel?

  Because, what do you think would happen?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  I, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I, I don't want them to know anything because then they will have an expectation or they will feel like part of it. I almost feel like I want to be able to say like I did it all alone without any help.

• 35:05Esther Perel?

  I did what? I did what all alone?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  I managed to build a life for myself without the help of anyone.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  I think it's hard to ask for help and so I want to show that I don't need it.

• 35:33Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 35:44Esther Perel?

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• 36:29Esther Perel?

  Your menopause specialized doctor will tailor your treatment to your exact needs. Plus you get unlimited messaging with your doctor. That's M Y A L L O Y dot com with code ESTER to get 20% off your first order. This code is valid on products only.

• 36:49Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. It's easy to get your business ideas off the ground with Shopify. They'll provide you with everything you'll need to start selling and they get you ready for the moment your first customer is ready to pay. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide from household names to small businesses just getting started. Their templates and AI tools get you a stunning site up and running fast. No coding needed. If questions come up, Shopify's built in AI assistant Sidekick is ready to help you build, troubleshoot and keep moving. The best part is that all of Shopify tools are conveniently located in one easy to use platform. And because Shopify handles the setup and checkout,

• 37:34Esther Perel?

  you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it. If you're ready to hear the sound of your first sale today, then head over to Shopify.com/ESTER to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.com/ESTER. That's Shopify.com/ESTER.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 38:45Esther Perel?

  I feel that there's so much here.

• 38:50Esther Perel?

  And we can go in a number of different directions. Because there's a structure in place and the structure justifies itself all the time.

• 39:04Esther Perel?

  I can do it by myself. I don't need anybody. If I ask for help, I will completely get mush.

• 39:12Esther Perel?

  The only way I can be independent is if I have a wall between me and them. We're not talking about help. We're talking about closeness. We're talking about self-worth. We're talking about feeling loved. We're talking about letting somebody in without being afraid that if they come in, they will never leave.

• 39:37Esther Perel?

  And you will suddenly buckle in your knees because your supposed self-sufficiency is actually not nearly as strong as you would like it to be. Neither should it be for that matter.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  And, yes, you took care of yourself, you built yourself, you built a life. What made you come to France? What were you fleeing there?

• 40:06Esther Perel?

  If I may ask?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I I think maybe this is a long, long, long topic perhaps, I don't know. I think, looking back, I was really disappointed with

• 40:21Speaker 01

  the community I had trusted. I think leaving that community allowed me to feel like

• 40:35Speaker 01

  I could leave my home. When I was in Cape Town, I feel like I had everything I ever wanted. I had my dream house, my car, my life, everything I could ever want. I was part of a community and I feel like, uh when I broke up with my ex, I felt like

• 40:54Speaker 01

  it wasn't enough for me anymore. The life that I had, that I thought was everything I ever wanted, it wasn't enough anymore. I felt like if I if I have everything I want, but I'm alone, it's not enough. I don't want it anymore. And then I broke away from this church community structure that I had, and then I was just like I'm alone again, so I can leave, I can try something new. I'm free to go wherever I want and try something else. I felt like the strings had been cut and I could just go because there were no roots like holding me anymore.

• 41:38Esther Perel?

  There was a betrayal?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I felt like it was, yeah.

• 41:43Esther Perel?

  In what way?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  The people who are supposed to stand for something. Our values didn't align. They didn't stand for what they said they did. They say one thing and they think another and I was just so angry and still I'm actually so angry at at that group of people. I felt really

• 42:09Speaker 01

  betrayed. And actually, it wasn't even that I was gay. It was it was for other things, like the position of the church during the time of they just didn't represent what I thought they should. And when I asked questions, you were just ostracized and

• 42:31Speaker 01

  I thought that the community was real, but when you leave, it's like out of sight, out of mind. Don't cause trouble, don't ask questions and and on- once you're out of that frame, that out of that group, it's like you don't exist anymore. So the relationships that I built for ten years, they were disappeared overnight. The moment you step out the church, you you're a nobody. And so it freed me to leave and to try something new.

• 43:04Esther Perel?

  But you left it, you left rejected.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:14Esther Perel?

  So it wasn't a good leaving.

• 43:17Esther Perel?

  I'm not sure I know exactly what happened. I mean, why did you leave the church?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Uh it was during the time of, like, twenty twenty and I thought that the church should be political and should stand for certain things and they rejected

• 43:39Speaker 01

  any questioning of representation of looking after groups and I just felt like the Jesus that I followed was not represented like there. And so I asked questions and the people who were pastors and who I would be at holidays and birthdays with and all of a sudden I asked these questions and there's people who I said I would do anything for and just cancelled me overnight.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  And so it's fine. I I made other friends, I built another life there. But I still feel really like angry towards that group of people. I think I felt so convicted about these things because I knew what it was like to be in that space and to not be fully accepted. Like, if I was in in that church and people knew that I was gay, I knew there wouldn't be a place for me. And so I think I felt like I know what it's like for people who don't feel like they can't be their full selves here.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Because I also couldn't be my full self there. So I think I cared so much about it because I could see my own self in in that too. And perhaps it felt a little bit more a little bit less less selfish to be fighting somebody else's struggle than to be fighting my own. It was the perfect excuse, really. I could live for a far superior reason than because I was being myself, you know?

• 45:31Esther Perel?

  I hear you.

• 45:34Esther Perel?

  But I also hear the sentence, I had created a new family.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:41Esther Perel?

  For which I was really willing to give everything.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:45Esther Perel?

  And while I didn't speak up for myself this time, again, I found a way of speaking up for me by speaking up for others.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 45:58Esther Perel?

  But I wasn't heard and I was ostracized and I was counseled.

• 46:05Esther Perel?

  It's fascinating for me that you leave your family to whom you don't say a word to join a community where you have to live in full transparency.

• 46:19Esther Perel?

  And where everything you do is scrutinized. And everything you do needs to be done according to code.

• 46:28Esther Perel?

  And you went from one extreme to another.

• 46:33Esther Perel?

  From you know nothing about me to a community in which you know everything about me. And I have to act according to your rules because there's no compromise. You're in or you're out.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember him saying, uh, the pastor, when I did ask some questions, he said, if you don't like the boat, get out the boat.

• 47:02Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  So I did.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I just find it funny how

• 47:10Speaker 01

  you can say so many things and then act so differently. It's it's none of it was, none of it was real. I don't believe anything. None of, none of it. It was all fake. It was just for show.

• 47:30Esther Perel?

  Are you pleased in some ironic way, in some twisted turn of fate that you got counseled?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  So happy.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  It did help me, it did release me. And it made me be able to very quickly accept that I was gay and all of these things.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  And I was able to just live my life. And I think if I was still part of that, I it would have been

• 48:06Speaker 01

  a much longer, slower journey of accepting myself.

• 48:12Esther Perel?

  Do you have a therapist?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Uh, not anymore.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  When I was in Cape Town, I did for a long time, uh mostly about the family stuff and getting over my past relationship. But uh not anymore.

• 48:29Esther Perel?

  Because I think as we talk and if you look, we kind of canvass various areas of your life. We start talking about dating, meeting men, finding love, making friends.

• 48:48Esther Perel?

  Questions about what does it mean to get close to people? How do you end up not constantly thinking that whenever you enter the relationship, you enter a kind of a, an indentured service? Within that, you mentioned your deep attraction to black men and what that represents. There's a lot of topics, I'm just gonna name them because we've just canvassed all of that. And the relationship with your sister and the relationship with your parents. You know, there's so many touch points of your life that you named, because this is really all we did, primarily what we did, is we named

• 49:32Esther Perel?

  um, how do you call it? Heat map. It was like a heat map of the hotspots of your life. So we had sex and love and family and community and work and fetishes, et cetera. And to me, that means there's a ton to examine and stuff to clear and to become much more understanding of. And if you can find a good English-speaking therapist where you are.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:12Esther Perel?

  But you need someone. You're very, very alone. And you ruminate in your head and then you have this obsessive behaviors and then you don't like them, but you don't know what to do with what you don't like and you don't know what to do with what you really do like.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:30Esther Perel?

  And it doesn't have to stay this way.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:35Esther Perel?

  In a sense, you drew pieces of a map.

• 50:40Esther Perel?

  You know?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  I think it's because, uh, you know, I've been thinking so much about these things and so I would just say them and I should have just

• 50:49Esther Perel?

  There's no should. You you named them. I think the the first thing you said is I have so many things I want to say and I don't want to forget. And you did. You said a lot of things because you felt that they needed to be said. And they needed to be said to someone who listens.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:07Esther Perel?

  And who doesn't tell you what to do with them.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:12Esther Perel?

  Or doesn't tell you to shove them.

• 51:16Esther Perel?

  You've had a home that basically invited you to be silent, and you've had the church that basically invited you to be silent in another way.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:31Esther Perel?

  So we talk about being gay, we talk about men, we talk about sex, we talk about hookups, we talk about a lot of, just these words seem to be so charged.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:49Esther Perel?

  Just the naming of these words is very, very charged and is a lot.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  There's so much like self-hate in so many of them as well.

• 52:03Esther Perel?

  I know that.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, thank you.

• 52:07Esther Perel?

  Okay, thank you very much.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Thank you, Esther.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 53:05Speaker 04

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 54:04Speaker 03

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