Is This Worth a Second Chance?

Should we have tried harder to make this work? What if you're the one who got away? These are the questions that keep us up at night. This week, Esther helps a couple who were together for eight years and broke up a year ago. They've recently reconnected and wonder if they should give it another try. If they do, can they avoid falling into their old dynamics and truly learn to listen to each other? For the month of January, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad free version of all the episodes. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 1:48Speaker 03

  He was thinking about marrying and talking about children. And I was like, oh, but is he the right person? And will he ever listen to my needs and be intimate in a way that I want? But then he felt pressured about it and became a huge topic that drained the relationship.

• 2:12Esther Perel?

  She's 31, he's 37. They've been together for eight years and they've been apart, separated for the past year.

• 2:22Speaker 05

  Towards the end of the relationship, we got into a sort of negative spiral. And then eventually, we couldn't do it anymore and we broke up. But this always felt very weird to me. Like, I felt like I found my person, but then suddenly, we broke up.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  I tried to kind of date with other people and see how that felt. And I went into therapy as well and did a lot of exercises to try and let go. But I couldn't really. And at some point, I wanted to explore whether we would be a good couple again. And he's up for exploring this.

• 3:11Esther Perel?

  And she's wondering, "Did I let him get away? Is it that we're not compatible? Is there a possibility for us to reconnect? Is it that it's just who he is and who I am and we should just accept and give up? We get stuck and we get hopeless. But I would like to know, is there a possibility for us to actually be back together again? And in fact, they actually just went out together, not really on a date, but they met again a couple of weeks back.

• 3:44Speaker 05

  It's strange to see someone again that you haven't seen for a year. While she looked great, at the same time, the first few times that I saw her, I also felt some resentment, to be honest.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  I was so nervous. But it was nice. It was good to see each other. And we talked a lot. And he talked a lot to me about how he felt abandoned. And we also had nice conversations. And it was a really nice first date.

• 4:19Esther Perel?

  This is one of those sessions where a couple asks, "Can we do it again and do it better? Can we have a second chance? Or do we have to accept that this isn't meant to be? Or that we can't make it be what we want it to be?

• 4:34Speaker 03

  Is it right for the both of us? And I want it to be right, but I also have anxiety that it might not be and that we're not compatible enough and that it will always be a very difficult relationship.

• 4:59Esther Perel?

  Here's what I will invite us to be careful of, is that you say, "Here were all the issues." And he says, "Here is all what was good." And that, I think, resembles maybe something that happened already before. Yeah. And so if you brought up an issue, he tried to tell you, "Why are you looking at the negative?" You said, "It's not the negative, it's my need." He felt criticized, he became defensive. You felt that there is no room to express anything.

• 5:42Esther Perel?

  He felt that you always look for what's missing.

• 5:46Speaker 05

  Oh, in a cliche.

• 5:54Esther Perel?

  It's the Spotify playlist of Copper's Dynamics. I could have been totally off and it could have... There are other songs, you know, but this is one. I think I heard somewhere that you both don't, right?

• 6:09Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  So it's new moves. Your moves are predictable. And you each hope the other one will surprise you. But your steps need to shift.

• 6:27Speaker 06

  I don't know how to do this.

• 6:31Esther Perel?

  That's why we're here.

• 6:33Speaker 06

  It feels like, I don't know. Maybe I'm very stuck in my head about this and I'm scared it will be the same.

• 6:45Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 6:46Speaker 06

  And it feels like he's how he is, I'm who I am. And there might not be a different light that you can shine on each of us. So why, why would it be different now?

• 7:04Esther Perel?

  Because there is who you each are and there is who you each become when you are with the other.

• 7:14Esther Perel?

  It's not will you be different people, it's you, will you be different with each other?

• 7:21Esther Perel?

  It's relational, not categorical. So if you wanna say the same thing as you said before, hoping that he will come up with a different response. Ain't gonna work.

• 7:38Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's predictable. But if you ask yourself, how do I do this differently? How can I talk to him so it doesn't instantly put him on the defensive? I have needs, he's deficient.

• 7:56Esther Perel?

  Vice versa, how can you listen to what she's asking for?

• 8:03Esther Perel?

  And here it does maybe an invitation for both of you, rather than just a criticism of you.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, this was very difficult for me always because I think I can deal with constructive criticism. But I always felt, especially in the last year or so, the threat of that these critiques were also sort of combined with the threat of the relationship blowing up. So I, I was, my feeling was that I was walking on a minefield. So this made it very hard for me to accept this as an invitation to do something together. Because I felt I wasn't good enough and I was, I had to tread very carefully to make sure I didn't say anything wrong or do anything wrong.

• 8:53Esther Perel?

  So when I feel.

• 8:56Esther Perel?

  That it's a pass fail. And if I fail, you could leave and I could lose you.

• 9:03Esther Perel?

  Then I don't feel safe enough to take the risks of stepping outside myself and really taking in what you say.

• 9:14Esther Perel?

  Do you want to say this in your own words?

• 9:17Speaker 05

  Um, that's a difficult one, but I'll try.

• 9:21Esther Perel?

  And say it in Dutch first.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  Say it from the heart.

• 9:28Speaker 05

  Okay. Um, ja, nee, ik heb het gevoel dat inderdaad op het moment dat ik het... Ik was heel bang om je kwijt te raken en daarom probeerde ik het elke keer goed te doen, maar dat zorgde eigenlijk juist ervoor dat ik

• 9:43Speaker 05

  ook een soort van in mijn verdediging schoot en daar ook een soort van, ja, resentment, ik weet even niet het Nederlandse woord, mee opbouwen, denk dat dat ook voor je is.

• 9:59Esther Perel?

  Do you want to translate it?

• 10:00Speaker 05

  Ah, yes.

• 10:03Esther Perel?

  I can ask her. Then you will know if she heard you well.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, please.

• 10:10Speaker 06

  You felt so scared for me to leave you that you protected yourself from it already, maybe? And being so focused on that that you didn't have maybe the space to explore it or hear it?

• 10:31Speaker 05

  Uh huh. Yeah, I think that that covers a part of it, yeah.

• 10:37Esther Perel?

  Go back to your gut. Because what started to happen is that you began to live with a knot, maybe in your stomach or in your chest. If I don't do this, she's gonna leave, she's gonna leave, she's gonna leave. And you began to live with a knot of I can't stay here, I can't stay here.

• 11:03Esther Perel?

  And a lot of the beautiful things that you have together began to disappear. So how do you start first and foremost, each of you, by creating this kind of reassurance, where you say, "We have a good grounding on which we can bring our challenges." Because you're each asking reassurance from the other. I don't know if you know that.

• 11:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, maybe in slightly different words, but we ask for a commitment in a way is a reinsurance, right? It's sort of not formalizing, but making things a bit more fixed or grounded by doing whatever you want, like getting married, getting a dog, getting kids, whatever, it doesn't matter. But for me, this is a reassurance that it won't just, you know, the relationship would suddenly be over, which is exactly what happened.

• 12:05Esther Perel?

  Well, it's after eight years. It wasn't so suddenly.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  True.

• 12:10Esther Perel?

  She didn't just leave after she tried to tell you something once.

• 12:15Speaker 05

  True.

• 12:16Esther Perel?

  Nor twice. So here's how you shift this. It starts with, "What can I do that then will incentivize you to do something else?" It's kind of, if you want to change the other, change yourself. So then the thing is, "What can I do differently that will make you do something different?"

• 12:41Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 12:43Speaker 06

  I've just no idea how to do this.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  Let's try.

• 12:51Speaker 06

  I really wouldn't know where to start.

• 12:55Esther Perel?

  I can't promise you a thing.

• 12:58Esther Perel?

  But I think that it would go a long way if you had a feeling, the experience of having asked for something and having had an interaction around it that made you feel there was success. Like we were able to do this. Rather than we get stuck each time, we go right into the same gridlock and we just feel more and more despair and fear.

• 13:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  And since it wasn't always an issue,

• 13:32Esther Perel?

  you have a source of good interactions to rely on. This is not like from day one, this has been a major issue.

• 13:42Speaker 06

  It wasn't in my experience, but I don't know how you experienced it.

• 13:48Esther Perel?

  What is it? Can we name it?

• 13:52Speaker 06

  Difficulty with intimacy or difference in intimacy needs.

• 14:00Esther Perel?

  See, here's the thing. Talking about sexuality or physical intimacy, it helps when you are being very specific. It's like the difference between food and a particular dish.

• 14:15Speaker 06

  I think a difference in wanting to be open to physical intimacy, like kissing, without it having to lead to something, but just kissing to be together, to connect. And having that more regularly.

• 14:42Esther Perel?

  I like to kiss. I like to kiss you. And sometimes I just wanna be able to kiss you. And I don't necessarily want more than that. Is that it?

• 14:55Speaker 06

  It feels like that for me, but whenever I've tried to communicate that, then he would kind of, literally, physically move away from me or move his head away. And that made me feel very rejected.

• 15:21Speaker 05

  I guess this was mostly in the last two years?

• 15:27Speaker 06

  I think also a little bit before that, not in the first few years, but definitely before that.

• 15:40Esther Perel?

  I've just met them and I'm listening to how they listen. I'm listening to see if they're listening with curiosity, if they're listening to understand, if they're listening to know each other better, or if they're listening to basically prepare the rebuttal. And when she describes, "I would approach you, I wanted more physical affection, and I felt rejected by you", his response is not about wanting to understand her experience more or just simply entering into her world for a moment. His response is a question of,

• 16:24Esther Perel?

  was it Tuesday or Thursday? Was it last year or the year before? And that tells me that he is listening for rebuttal. He's preparing an argument. And so I make a decision at this moment, since I'm only going to see them one session. I always ask myself, whose change has the capacity to instigate the bigger ripple of change? And so I'm going to stay with him for a moment. Because if he can open up, there will be more air entering for both of them.

• 17:11Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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• 19:01Esther Perel?

  What do you recognize in what she describes? Because I'm not sure yet that I understand it. And you seem to both know. So just describe to me what happens. Give me one scene. I'm a camera on the wall. What am I capturing? What happens to these two people?

• 19:21Speaker 05

  Um, I guess for me, how I experienced it is that. I would be doing something in the house, for example, uh maybe working or doing something in the kitchen. And then you would come up to me and. You would already be in this sort of state where you would be very. Close and looking for intimacy, like guessing, not necessarily more than that, but like being very close. And I would be in the state where, for example, I just came back from work or I was sort of still. In a very sort of, I need to get stuff done mindset, or I I need to get groceries, whatever.

• 20:06Speaker 05

  And then I wouldn't have the openness to receive this. I couldn't reciprocate this. I guess I was not very, sometimes not very empathetic. And I kind of closed.

• 20:20Speaker 05

  And later on in the relationship, there was this extra feeling on top of that. Where I felt like, oh, she wants this again, and it's it's not good enough and I need to, you know. Um, it was kind of like a bucket with a hole in it, that it constantly needed topping up. And if I didn't give enough, the bucket would would empty out. And so it became a chore on top of this other feeling. I I enjoy being close around you and I enjoy being intimate. But sometimes I felt like my need for space or being in my own head. There was no space for that, right? It was kind of like your need came first.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  And I'm not sure if you always understood how, what what my need was here.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  It's not a rejection, it's just that I am currently in this moment not feeling the same as you.

• 21:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I I can understand you might be unavailable in the moment. But that you might have a different moment where you would have the space and then would look for me. But you didn't do that.

• 21:35Speaker 05

  I don't know if I agree with that. In at least in my memory, it's not like that.

• 21:42Speaker 05

  I feel like I did show affection and intimacy towards you, but.

• 21:47Speaker 05

  I'm not sure if you always saw it. Or if it if you did see it, it wasn't enough, right? Maybe the ratio was off, but it's not like I never did that.

• 21:59Speaker 06

  I agree with that you showed me affection in in ways, but not in the way I needed. Not in in the way of kissing, for example. And you were also quite vocal about not wanting to do that if I asked you to, because you didn't want to do what I asked you. Being very stubborn.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  Sure, I'll give you that.

• 22:24Speaker 06

  But that stubbornness also made me feel like you didn't want it to. I mean, you literally said you didn't want to. How can I then not see it this way?

• 22:39Speaker 05

  Um hum. Yeah, for me, there there there's another dynamic which kind of feeds into this conversation like. Obviously, when when you just start seeing each other and you know each other for a few months, maybe a few years. This all goes automatically, right? You have a lot of passion for each other and you want to be intimate a lot of times. Whereas if time goes on after eight years, you can still have these phases where you're intimate very often. But for me at least, the dynamic changes, right? And there's also phases that you have less desire for this intimacy.

• 23:20Speaker 05

  And for me, that doesn't mean like the relationship is not worth it or anything like that. But I kind of felt that you wanted to keep this bar up no matter what. You know, we need to be intimate. We need to do this. Otherwise, the relationship is not good.

• 23:39Esther Perel?

  Let me ask you something. Because there's a few things swimming in the same pool here.

• 23:44Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 23:46Esther Perel?

  And you did a very good description of this competition. Who gets priority? Whose needs matter more? Why shall I do what you want? Why don't you do what I want?

• 24:02Esther Perel?

  And it becomes very ironic because here are two people who are kind and generous, who find themselves both constantly wondering why they're being rejected.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 24:13Esther Perel?

  And that's the question I want to explore with you. It's like, how do you end up in a situation where both of you are feeling the opposite of what you are looking for?

• 24:30Esther Perel?

  If I, I'm in the kitchen, I'm doing something, and my mind is somewhere else. How do I communicate that in a way that doesn't basically make you feel more lonely? This is not about keeping a bar up. This is about connecting.

• 24:47Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 24:50Esther Perel?

  It's very interesting, these statements of certitudes that you put up. Now, there's a way to say, I just came back from work, that lets the other person say, it's so nice the way you welcome me. What do you want, to walk in a house where someone doesn't notice you even came in?

• 25:07Esther Perel?

  You know? Rather than she wants something from me, and I'm not going to give it to her now because I don't want to.

• 25:15Esther Perel?

  She's also offering something, but there is a confusion between invitation and demand.

• 25:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, I agree. I think it's not so much that I didn't want to give it to her and like was rejecting her in that sense, and this is what you felt, I think.

• 25:30Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. Why don't you see that I am not there yet and every time you come?

• 25:35Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  Yes, it's the same thing.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  Is it?

• 25:38Esther Perel?

  Yes. You should know. I just came home. I'm just coming from work. You know, you you got angry

• 25:48Esther Perel?

  that she was putting a demand on you that you did not want to fulfill, and she should not have asked, so you wouldn't have had to feel so bad.

• 25:57Speaker 05

  Uh huh. And then also, when, you know, when there's a thing of like coming back later, it's another thing on my list, right? I need to maintain this in my head, and that adds to the stress.

• 26:07Esther Perel?

  Tell me something. This is familiar to you? Reacting to demands.

• 26:14Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 26:14Esther Perel?

  Even translating first and foremost into a demand, then getting upset at the other person for putting you in that position, then experiencing their invitation as a chore on your list.

• 26:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess, um, I can see that dynamic also in other parts of my life.

• 26:35Esther Perel?

  Care to share with me?

• 26:37Speaker 05

  I feel like in lots of parts of my life, I've sort of grown on this subject. Uh, but I've been told on by employers that I'm very stubborn, for example, and if they give me a task, then I will second guess the task forever before I do it.

• 26:54Esther Perel?

  Where did you learn stubbornness? What was useful about it? Because we become stubborn, you know, it's not, we're not born stubborn.

• 27:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think this is like something from my teenage years, like I had a phase where I was very sort of easygoing, but then people mistook easygoingness for weakness and they crossed my boundaries many times. And then I kind of swung the other direction and I became just, I just went into attack mode if people uh, crossed my boundary. And I think I swung back quite a bit since then, but maybe this reflex is still there.

• 27:40Esther Perel?

  Do you recognize it with her?

• 27:43Speaker 05

  Um, yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, I didn't really connect the dots before, that it's the same thing, but it could definitely could have played a role.

• 27:56Esther Perel?

  Don't just acquiesce. Because if you acquiesce, then you're experiencing me doing to you what was done in adolescence.

• 28:06Speaker 05

  Uh huh. I think I agree with that this is part of the dynamic, but it doesn't cover the entire thing. Speaking for myself, um, the thing I've learned is that it's much better to speak from your own needs, like what do I want, what do I need? And for me, this is very, it was very tough and it's still tough to formulate this in my head. Like, I have no problem speaking about my feelings if I know what my feelings are, but sometimes I just don't know, right? And this also applies to what are your needs in a relationship? And instead of being proactive, it's, I became reactive.

• 28:49Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. Can I push a little bit more?

• 28:54Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 28:55Esther Perel?

  Really?

• 28:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'll go for it.

• 29:00Esther Perel?

  Were there times when she would come, say, let's just kiss, hug, show affection, and you were not up for it? And she'd get upset? And you'd say, I don't want to hurt you, or I don't want to make you feel bad, or I don't want you to be rejected. I know that sometimes when I'm still in transition and I need to close something before I can start something else, and that's sometimes tough on you. And I just, I don't like to see you sad. Rather than my needs, your needs.

• 29:39Speaker 05

  I think I did this, maybe not in this empathetic way, but I think I've, especially in the last, I tried to do this, let me put it that way.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  I didn't experience it this way. I don't know how your approach was, but I felt like.

• 30:00Esther Perel?

  You shouldn't feel upset. Why are you upset? There's nothing to be upset about.

• 30:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, we.

• 30:06Esther Perel?

  I just need more time.

• 30:07Speaker 06

  Fine, and you're, this is just your perfectionism, and you always want this, and you always want this. And, I mean, of course, there's some truth to it, that I'm perfectionistic, but it's also just wanting to be close.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 30:30Speaker 06

  And I felt you found me just annoying by wanting that.

• 30:36Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 30:38Speaker 06

  And feel like, oh, here she comes again. Why are you doing this?

• 30:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, at, at the end, it sometimes felt like this, and I think that's true. But overall, during the rest of our relationship, I wasn't annoyed by this.

• 30:57Speaker 06

  You would, in your body language, you would back off from me and not lean in.

• 31:04Speaker 05

  Uh huh, because I wasn't available at that moment. I think I, I told you several times, like, hey, I'm still in work mode, but then I didn't say the other thing, like, I know it's difficult for you or something like this. I, I didn't go that empathetic way, but I think I tried to explain my behavior to you.

• 31:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, but it also happened whenever you, you didn't work, or it was just when we're in bed. And we're, we're n- n- not necessarily.

• 31:38Esther Perel?

  You know what I'm noticing? When you listen to her, you're paying a lot of attention. Is this right? Do I agree? Is this factual? Is this fair? Is this just?

• 31:53Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 31:56Esther Perel?

  Another way of listening is what can I learn?

• 32:01Esther Perel?

  She's trying to say something, she's been trying to say it for quite a few years. What can I learn from this? This is for both of you, but it was, it was mostly, it wasn't all the time. You know, I did this, but I didn't do that. You're in this fact-checking mode that you will have the right numbers, but you won't have moved an inch.

• 32:26Speaker 05

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 32:28Esther Perel?

  I don't know that it serves you that much.

• 32:30Speaker 05

  I don't think so.

• 32:31Esther Perel?

  Okay, I'm glad to hear you say it. And there is history behind this, and that history may have not much to do with her.

• 32:40Esther Perel?

  If I want this to change, what should I focus on? How do I change it? So that we don't enter into she pursues and I distance, and I explain why I have the right to distance, and I get mad at her for not understanding my need for distance, and she gets mad at me for never actually initiating closeness. And so all you talk about is the right to have space, when she's longing to actually hear you also say, "I miss you too", as if she doesn't want space and as if you don't want closeness. It's like, instead of how do I explain to her that I need transition time, how about, how do I reconnect with my wish for connection too?

• 33:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's, I agree with that part.

• 33:27Esther Perel?

  I agree.

• 33:29Speaker 05

  I think that's, that's, no, that's, that's for me is a big challenge, right? To, to find my sort of need in this and to express it, rather than being reactive.

• 33:40Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:42Esther Perel?

  When you said before, one time you said, "I really like when we connect, I love to be intimate with you", the mood changed. Rather than holding your flag, because you know, it's not, there's something about being the one who voices, "I need the space, I need the transition, my needs, my needs", when you have somebody on the other side making sure that the gap never gets too big. If she just followed you in those last few years...

• 34:18Esther Perel?

  Days could have gone by before the two of you connected in any way. Of course, it never happens because she comes back asking.

• 34:27Speaker 05

  Do you think I would wouldn't have connected with you if you wouldn't have started?

• 34:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, I felt very responsible for maintaining our connection. Because I didn't experience any from or not in that way from you.

• 34:51Speaker 06

  And you were fine with everything and you wouldn't be on the the lookout for me.

• 35:00Speaker 06

  Maybe in terms of, hey, how was your day? I find, okay, cool, good night, but not in a connecting way.

• 35:10Speaker 05

  I see what you're saying. It's just for me, my memory of how it was is just so different that it makes it difficult to understand sometimes because.

• 35:22Esther Perel?

  But you didn't ask a question about your memory. You asked a question to her about what she experienced with you.

• 35:31Speaker 05

  Uh huh, yeah, so I I accept what you're saying, of course. But.

• 35:36Speaker 06

  Accept.

• 35:37Esther Perel?

  Period, no but.

• 35:40Esther Perel?

  Do you understand? Period.

• 35:43Esther Perel?

  You ask a question about her, you get the answer. And that stops there. If you go with but I see it differently, then you're not really curious about what she just said. You're trying to verify if you agree or disagree. If you're right or if you're wrong. Rather than there is me and there is you. And we have different experiences and they cohabitate, they live together. And I'm curious about it. And I hope you're curious about mine.

• 36:23Esther Perel?

  The opposite of reactive is curious. The opposite of reactive is reflective. If I understood where you sometimes get stuck, it's in the right and wrong. Agree, disagree. You call that stubborn, but those are the elements that swim in the pool of stubbornness.

• 36:46Esther Perel?

  And I think you're, tell me if I heard it well, but the question you then end up with is too much, too little, too much, too little. Am I asking too much? Am I entitled to ask for as much? Should I live with less? But less doesn't feel good.

• 37:05Esther Perel?

  But more leaves me feeling rejected.

• 37:09Speaker 06

  And too much?

• 37:12Speaker 06

  Being too much?

• 37:14Esther Perel?

  Hmm, tell me more.

• 37:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 37:23Speaker 06

  It became just quite scary to find a connection. Because if he reacts this way, then I feel too much, as if I shouldn't have asked it. As if I'm wrong asking it. And I don't wanna feel that way. I would like to be with someone who's happy with me connecting and not making me feel too much. Because it's not that I necessarily for myself need this, but I, I want this connection.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  Makes me happy to connect in that way. And shouldn't feel like an obligation to move with that. I would want you to want that as well. And I feel like you, you feel like it's an obligation and not something you want. And then we have had these conversations about,

• 38:34Speaker 06

  are we too different in terms of needs of in intimacy? And are we compatible enough in it?

• 38:46Esther Perel?

  No, you're not.

• 38:50Esther Perel?

  That I can say. You're not, because you didn't have it for the first some, um, 10 years. This begins when he enters into,

• 39:02Esther Perel?

  "Your needs make me feel invisible. I don't feel respected. I don't feel seen." And he enters into a struggle. Saying, "No, you won't make me," becomes more important to him than, "I like this too."

• 39:20Esther Perel?

  His goal is not to tell you, "You want too much." His goal is to tell you, "You can't make me."

• 39:27Speaker 06

  I experienced that, yeah.

• 39:33Esther Perel?

  When I'm listening to her, I hear how she's affected by him, but also how this taps into one of her core themes. How can I want without being too much? Or deemed too much? And so, what we now have is a core theme for her, and I am going to ask with him if we can get closer to the context that surrounds a core theme for him. In this dance that they have, when she's upset and she starts talking to him about possibly leaving him,

• 40:17Esther Perel?

  it in fact only reinforces his self-protection. And he feels not safe, and he digs in more into his own needs for preservation and space. But something in the rigidity

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  and in the immediacy of his self-protection and his attempts at preservation tells me that he wasn't just hurt by her, that the hurt is older and we need to go look for its source.

• 41:04Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 41:19Speaker 06

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 41:46Speaker 02

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• 42:17Speaker 02

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• 42:29Esther Perel?

  you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 42:47Esther Perel?

  Did you do this growing up? I mean, is that a piece of how?

• 42:53Speaker 05

  I mean, um.

• 42:57Esther Perel?

  Was there a need to defend yourself and to protect?

• 43:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think my, how do you say that? Like, my home situation with my parents were kind of conducive to this sort of behavior.

• 43:12Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  The way that emotions were communicated were through anger and not like a warm feeling, right? So this was the way to communicate your feelings, mostly from my parents towards me, but I guess, you know, you start to do the same thing.

• 43:37Esther Perel?

  The reason I asked you the question about where you learned it is because there's something so set about it that it usually says, this is not just the first time. This is not produced out of this relationship. This relationship for the first few years had none of this or very little of this. This started, actually, when you began to think this relationship is set. And at that moment, it became more similar to what happened at home.

• 44:13Esther Perel?

  And that's when you started to switch.

• 44:17Esther Perel?

  What I mean by switch is that your need for closeness or connection went underneath your need for right and wrong,

• 44:27Esther Perel?

  your need for protecting your boundaries, your need for the power and the priorities.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  And you went from interactions of care to interactions of power, control.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 44:42Esther Perel?

  Okay, and you began to experience her demands for care.

• 44:48Esther Perel?

  As attempts for control. Then it becomes two different languages. And at that moment, in my mind, it's like this is from somewhere else. The same as you then feeling, I'm too much. What's the amount of space I'm allowed to take? When he says this or does that? That's a narrative that is also pre-existing for you. Your issue is not about compatibility. When you go out, when you see friends, when you go dancing, when you look at the world, you have a zillion things you share. I mean, we're honing in on something very particular.

• 45:27Esther Perel?

  But you have lots of things that you enjoy, that you do well, that you... Yeah? Is that a fair assumption?

• 45:39Speaker 06

  It was, but then it got all negative and difficult and whiny and...

• 45:45Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay. That's where we pick up.

• 45:48Speaker 06

  The situation. Not you in total. I see you looking, but I meant the whole situation. Just to be clear.

• 45:57Esther Perel?

  Yes. So let me ask you, for the first four, five years?

• 46:04Speaker 06

  I think the first three years for me were really, really nice. And that's where it shifted.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  Okay. So there was a few good years of all of this. So that's when I know it's not an issue of compatibility. You've developed negative dynamics. And there's a piece in your head that once you make a commitment, you don't have to make an effort.

• 46:33Speaker 05

  Me?

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Um, maybe. I mean, I do recognize... It resonated a bit with me when you said it. So I guess there's... Yeah.

• 46:49Esther Perel?

  I'm never right, by the way, just so you know. I, I think out loud and here and there you pick up on a little something different. It's not meant to be a statement that redefines your whole attitude. You're just, I mean, I say it in this kind of totalistic way, but that's not, that's not its intention. You know, I can see how the struggles for control were imported from your relationship with your parents, whoever the parent is, into your relationship with your girlfriend.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  But the way you're fighting to not lose yourself ends up making you lose her.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's ironic, right? Because in the end, I want exactly the opposite, right? I also want to have like a warm relationship and eventually, you know, a family with, which is very warm and, and, and connected, right? This is what I want, but

• 47:58Speaker 05

  it will be difficult to, to get there, I guess.

• 48:02Speaker 06

  It's also a question whether you want to get there.

• 48:07Speaker 06

  Because you can also not want to get there.

• 48:12Speaker 05

  Well, I would not be here if I didn't want to.

• 48:15Speaker 06

  I don't, you can still back, back out if you don't want to.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying.

• 48:25Esther Perel?

  He just told her that he wants it.

• 48:30Esther Perel?

  And she's not hearing him either. She's so convinced, because of all what has happened between them, that she's the wantor and he's the naysayer. I didn't pick up on it in the session, but I'm hearing it now.

• 48:52Esther Perel?

  Say something about you. What have you learned?

• 48:59Speaker 06

  That I'm allowed to make these asks for connection. And that I'm not weird or too much in wanting or needing it. And that I don't necessarily have to push that need away. That is valid.

• 49:25Esther Perel?

  Not just valid, beautiful, generous, inviting, caring.

• 49:34Esther Perel?

  And that he wants it too.

• 49:38Esther Perel?

  Part of when you ask him, what does he want? Or does he want that? Yes, some of this he wants, but he doesn't know how to.

• 49:47Esther Perel?

  This is an opportunity for both of you to learn a few things. You know? If there was a cartoon of your family

• 50:00Esther Perel?

  and a cartoon of you in it, and there was a balloon above your head that was kind of a central statement about you in the context of your family, what would your balloons say? Each of you?

• 50:23Speaker 06

  That's a very difficult question.

• 50:31Speaker 05

  The first picture that comes to mind is an island. It's not really a word, but it's an island, like

• 50:39Speaker 05

  isolated maybe a bit.

• 50:43Speaker 05

  Like I'm the only child, divorced parents, so I always felt I was by myself in a way. I had my mother, but she was always working, so it's...

• 50:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess this picture comes up.

• 51:00Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And what did the balloon say?

• 51:05Speaker 05

  Um, you like, you have to do it yourself.

• 51:09Esther Perel?

  You're alone?

• 51:11Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 51:12Esther Perel?

  You're all by yourself?

• 51:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe, something like this. It's hard to put the finger on exactly, but.

• 51:23Esther Perel?

  How old were you when they split?

• 51:26Speaker 05

  Four.

• 51:28Esther Perel?

  Is there an image that often comes back?

• 51:32Speaker 05

  Um.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  I guess me playing by myself.

• 51:38Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. What are you playing?

• 51:41Speaker 05

  Legos.

• 51:46Esther Perel?

  And I'm playing by myself?

• 51:50Esther Perel?

  And? How old am I?

• 51:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, like something like ten, maybe, ten.

• 51:58Esther Perel?

  Yeah, mm hmm.

• 52:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, another image is that, like, I would have friends over and then.

• 52:07Speaker 05

  For example, I would ask if they could stay for dinner, but this was never possible, right? Because uh. There was not enough food in the house or something like this, which was. Not, didn't make any sense because there wasn't enough food, but it was just not something that my. Mother counted on, so we can do it, right? And. It's, it's kind of fine, but it's sort of. Enforce this, you know, feeling of not being able to have this warm family vibe, even with a friend.

• 52:37Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:39Speaker 05

  And if I would go to friends and I would stay over there for dinner, it was never a problem and it was would be a full house, a full table with like. Siblings, it would be very fun.

• 52:51Esther Perel?

  So with your mom, you're the one who wanted. Connection and friends and warmth and closeness. And she was the one saying, I just came back from work.

• 53:07Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 53:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 53:12Esther Perel?

  How can you ask me anything right now?

• 53:15Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 53:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, and like.

• 53:20Speaker 05

  Yes, in a intense way as well.

• 53:23Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 53:25Esther Perel?

  Yeah, as intense as you became.

• 53:29Speaker 05

  Much more intense.

• 53:30Esther Perel?

  More intense. What's your balloon?

• 53:35Speaker 06

  Um. I think I have two separate ones.

• 53:40Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 53:41Speaker 06

  And the first one, it's quite busy and chaotic and it's like things everywhere and lots of colors and my family is kind of everywhere and it's nice and cozy. But I'm also already a little bit the weird one out, just a tiny bit.

• 54:06Speaker 06

  But not too much, it's fine.

• 54:10Speaker 06

  And then there's another one and I'm the one who's too much and that would

• 54:17Speaker 06

  speak balloon thing would say, um, I'm too much where it's a very cold gray static image.

• 54:28Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 54:28Speaker 06

  With fewer people, me being further out of it as well and being more of the weird one out and asking too much and feeling too much and yeah, being too much basically.

• 54:45Esther Perel?

  Once your relationship became

• 54:50Esther Perel?

  a battle between your I'm too much and your why do my needs never matter? A number of uninvited guests appeared in between the two of you.

• 55:08Esther Perel?

  And you began to react to each other from that place.

• 55:13Esther Perel?

  The place of hurt, the place of grief, the place of exclusion, that each of you, in your own way, felt at home. And that became the place from which you responded to each other. It wasn't in the here and now anymore. And if you ask yourself, can we resume? Can we have a different relationship? Can we be together again?

• 55:42Esther Perel?

  It's this that needs to be addressed, amongst other things, but this for sure. Without addressing this, your relationship won't change enough. You may have some reprieve, but you'll go right back to the same groove. So to me, what's in front of us right now is connecting the dots and then taking responsibility for creating a boundary between the now and the then.

• 56:13Esther Perel?

  So that you get to write a new story together rather than editing an old one.

• 56:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think either way, this will be messy.

• 56:28Esther Perel?

  It was messy already, so...

• 56:32Esther Perel?

  Maybe it can be messy in a good way.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  I hope so. It doesn't have to be perfect. You know, we can mess up as long as you can come back and, you know, try again and try to write a new script, right? But...

• 56:51Esther Perel?

  You mean the feeling was safe enough?

• 56:57Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 56:58Esther Perel?

  Like you mentioned before?

• 57:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not like I or you will be a different person from now on, right? It doesn't...

• 57:07Speaker 05

  You need to... We need to train this.

• 57:09Esther Perel?

  You know, you may not need to make a decision first. You may just say, what we need to do is different levels of accountability.

• 57:22Esther Perel?

  Of this is what I know I bring, and this is what I know I would like to change, this is what I learn, this is what I carry. Not in a self-blame way at all. Just simply, I recognize, I notice, I'm aware of

• 57:39Esther Perel?

  my contribution. And each of you, if you highlight your own contribution, then you don't need to spend all the time pointing finger at the other.

• 57:52Esther Perel?

  And then you will decide if you want to be back together.

• 57:57Esther Perel?

  Some of this is inside of you, you carry it. These things will, they may come up again.

• 58:09Speaker 06

  Would it be different with someone else? Would it be easier with someone else?

• 58:15Esther Perel?

  That thing could be easier, and then other things will be harder.

• 58:20Esther Perel?

  I mean, you trade one thing for another. But it could be different because it's something that is less intense.

• 58:30Esther Perel?

  But there is a reason why you keep coming back. And a part of it is because sometimes we pick someone with whom we finally will transcend one of the original challenges of our relational lives. Each of us, we have certain relationship challenges that we bring.

• 58:51Esther Perel?

  And the question is, with whom will we work them through? Not if and when, but with whom? And we often do it with the person who brings it out the most.

• 59:03Esther Perel?

  Because then we have got all the ingredients necessary for the replay and maybe for the repair. Till now, you've been in the replay. Now, the question is, can you use it for the repair?

• 59:17Esther Perel?

  And this, you're equal on that one.

• 59:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 59:23Esther Perel?

  Shall we take a deep breath? All of us? You really worked very hard. And I thank you for your openness and honesty as we just met like that out of nowhere.

• 59:38Speaker 06

  Thank you as well.

• 59:39Speaker 05

  Thank you, thank you.

• 59:41Esther Perel?

  You're welcome.

• 59:47Esther Perel?

  I have no idea where this is going to go, actually. And I called them back a few months later. And later this week, you'll be able to listen what landed, what they took from there and what changed or what didn't. Kind of what's the next chapter in the stories of these people? I think it's so important for me to know. And I think that your curiosity takes you there as well. So it's all on the Apple subscription on Apple.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

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• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.