Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two About this episode For the first time in an Esther Calling, Esther speaks to the partner of the caller from last week to hear his perspective on the story. Then, she does a session with the two of them as they detail how they feel stuck in their sexual pattern, where he always initiates, but when he initiates, she freezes. They try to figure out where they can go from here.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Esther Perel? En la siguiente sesión, discutiremos el asalto sexual. Y quiero que sepan esto antes de escuchar.
0:18 Esther Perel? La semana pasada, tuve una sesión con una joven mujer américa negra que envió una pregunta:
0:27 Esther Perel? ¿Crees que existe algo como la incompatibilidad sexual? Pero mientras hablábamos, se hizo muy rápido claro que esto no era realmente sobre incompatibilidad. Esto era sobre su experiencia de violación y cómo encontró una manera de reengajar sexualmente con su compañero creando un escrito en el que ella estaba en cargo de todo para que nunca más sintiera la pasividad, la desayuna y la impotencia que había marcado esa experiencia de violación que pasó. Y lo que van a escuchar ahora es mi conversación con su compañero actual
1:11 Esther Perel? que me invité a reunirse conmigo porque realmente necesitaba escuchar el lado de su historia. ¿Cómo se encontró todo esto con él? ¿Cuánto lo personalizaba esto? Porque se mantenía rechazado, ¿cómo podría no pensar que esto tiene que ver con él o esto tiene que ver con ella, en lugar de que esto tenga que ver con lo que se le hizo? Así que esta es mi conversación con él y empieza en los pies de mi discusión con ella de cuál ha sido el efecto de este evento traumático en su intimidad sexual actual con su novio.
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3:25 Esther Perel? You know, I ended the conversation with your girlfriend and I just thought I would love to hear how he sees it. And I said, I don't know if you've had a conversation since she and I spoke. So tell me where I meet you. Do you even know what we're supposed to talk about or how this came to be? So I can fill in the gaps.
3:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, we spoke about the conversation that you guys had. It was about how we're not always on the same time schedule when it comes to intimacy.
4:06 Speaker 03 I don't know, it's just been something that I think has been more of a challenge navigating than other relationships that were more casual, I suppose. It felt like originally, you know, when, when we first met that we were more on the same page, but I don't know, somewhere along the way. I'm not exactly sure, like, what changed, yeah.
4:33 Esther Perel? How would you describe your experience? From where you are, when I say, tell me, what stands out for you in your sexual relationship with your girlfriend, what would you say?
4:45 Speaker 03 When we do have sex, it's good. But I think a lot of the time
4:54 Speaker 03 she doesn't want to be as present. I don't really know why that is. I think, I think a lot of the time it's, you know, she doesn't always like wanna engage, which is okay. I guess my point is that sex once a week or something like that, you know, is normal, you know, or what, what I would see, you know, as normal.
5:23 Esther Perel? And what are some of the questions that you carry inside of you?
5:29 Esther Perel? That either you haven't asked her? Or haven't found the answers satisfying?
5:37 Speaker 03 Well, I, I'm pretty open about asking questions. So I, I don't, I don't really think there's anything that I've been wanting to ask that I haven't asked.
5:47 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. And any questions you've asked where the answer didn't really meet you?
5:58 Speaker 03 I just think that when I asked like, what could be done differently?
6:04 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
6:05 Speaker 03 You know, she'll say like, I need to prolong my, I guess, like, advances? You know, just based on how, how our, our daily schedules are and the time that we have. You know, realistically in a day, I just don't really know how, what I could do differently. And that's never really been made, you know, very clear to me. We just kinda like dance around it.
6:38 Esther Perel? What is foreplay like?
6:40 Speaker 03 Um, usually, I'll be the one to initiate. I'll rub, you know, the outer part of her thigh or, you know, her stomach or something like intimate places like that. And uh, there's been a lot of times where she's had to tell me like, oh, this or that spot triggers me. And that way it's been a learning process. But, but it's always, you know, me initiating and feeling my way through.
7:12 Esther Perel? Hmm.
7:13 Speaker 03 If we do engage intimately, you know, it'll be a while of me kinda like rubbing here and there and we might kiss some. There, there's a lot of the times where I'll, I'll start the foreplay. And then, you know, I'll get like stopped. And we've talked about it and she says like, you know, it's just something that she's not fully like, you know, conscious of when it's happening, like a knee jerk reaction. So that part of it kinda makes it difficult because I'm like, I'm having to, to interpret signals that are
7:50 Speaker 03 coming across negatively and remember not to read into it or something of that nature. And so it can make things a bit confusing at times.
8:05 Esther Perel? When you say triggering, you mean what?
8:09 Speaker 03 You know, just make something that uh, makes her feel uncomfortable.
8:12 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
8:15 Esther Perel? But from uncomfortable that makes her either wanna stop or that makes her continue but not really be present.
8:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, like she might like knock my hand away or something. And if I do continue, then she might let me continue, but not really be present. So it can make things kind of confusing and and it can make me get easily frustrated, you know.
8:43 Esther Perel? And then what do you do?
8:45 Speaker 03 Um, I mean, I I try to be okay, but I mean, everything has its limits, you know. And eventually I do hit a wall where I'm like, okay, like I'm starting to get annoyed. And we talk about it and you say you've been working on it, but nothing's happening. You know, so I start to wanna shut down because I'm like, I don't really know what's happening here.
9:11 Esther Perel? Right. That's part of why I wanted to invite you to be in the conversation. Because I had a sense that if it keeps repeating itself like this, then it starts to feel that we are incompatible because we're we're stuck. We keep circling back and gnawing at the same bone. And one piece is what actually is happening and how do we understand what goes on? And the second one is, how do we circle around it so that we don't come back to it? But we expand and we open up a different sexual expression between us
9:54 Esther Perel? that doesn't trigger her. And when you say trigger, do you know what it goes back to?
10:02 Speaker 03 Mm hmm.
10:03 Esther Perel? You do?
10:04 Speaker 03 Mm hmm, mm hmm.
10:05 Esther Perel? Okay. Is it different when she initiates?
10:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, but it's so rare that I can't, like, I can't even tell you the last time that she initiated.
10:18 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
10:19 Speaker 03 You know?
10:21 Esther Perel? You know, sometimes I like to say that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm.
10:29 Esther Perel? And not a few minutes before the real thing, the supposed real thing. That's number one. So the first thing is, how do you start long before you start? You know, it's like, if you're gonna cook a beautiful meal, you start by deciding what you wanna cook. Then it's about where you're gonna get the ingredients, what you're gonna get. Then it's about preparing all the ingredients. Then it's about all the cooking. And then it's about setting the table. And then it's about eating. Do you know how many steps before people swallow their first bite? Sex is about, has something similar to it.
11:13 Esther Perel? Especially when you are with someone who is struggling to find her own desire. And who, at this moment, needs to experience that sense of freedom in order to be comfortable in sex. So that it doesn't feel,
11:35 Esther Perel? "I'm doing what you want. I'm responding to what you want from me. I'm so much dealing with what you want from me that I cannot ask myself, what do I want for myself?" So, it almost would say, you start with sweet messages. You, whatever the things that you do during the day that make the other person know that they're on your mind, that you're thinking of them. It's a way of cultivating the desire and the connection outside of when it's meant to happen.
12:12 Esther Perel? And you may do all of that already. But I wanna repeat it cuz it's more important than we often think. And then when you wanna turn someone on, you actually don't need to go to their genitals, actually, but you go where there is absolutely no demand for a response, because the response will come when there is no demand. But the response will freeze when there is a sense that there is an expectation. And nothing has anything to do with you, and you've done nothing wrong, and this is not about you. This is about sexual healing that needs to take place for her. You understand? It's like with someone else, you may have none of this,
12:55 Esther Perel? and you're not doing anything wrong. Just wanna make that really, really clear.
13:00 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, yeah, that's what I meant when I said, like, past relationships that were more casual, you know, there wasn't all this. So I'm not used to that.
13:09 Esther Perel? That's right. So this one isn't casual. And that's part of why this is all, you know, this one is deep and meaningful and important for both of you. And that's why you wanna make sure that we take the correct exit from the beginning and not that you get lost, the two of you, in bad weeds.
13:32 Speaker 03 Yeah. I agree.
13:37 Esther Perel? Part of the go slower. You know, I once did a session with 200 men, and then one of the guy asked me, what does woman want? You know, what should we know here? And my first answer, from having spoken so much with women, was slow down. Don't just approach when it's sex, when it's meant to go for penetration and intercourse. Just play. Play without demand.
14:08 Esther Perel? Kiss, stroke, lick, shower, whatever you do, you know, that you enjoy, but without a demand.
14:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, and and I think, you know, that kind of goes back to where like, a lot of the time when I do those things.
14:23 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
14:24 Speaker 03 And there isn't a demand, she still feels like there is.
14:30 Esther Perel? You have to tell her, today we play and there is no demand. At best, you jerk off yourself or she'll play with you, but really state it. I just wanna touch you, I wanna kiss you, I wanna hold you, I wanna lick you, but no vulva. Just my, your neck, your ears, your hand, stay away from the genitals. And make it clear, we're having a different kind of sex today. We're going to have an erotic experience, it doesn't have to be the act of sex. And even if she wants to, you say, no, you can't.
15:12 Speaker 03 Okay.
15:13 Esther Perel? Afterwards, if she really wants to, then do whatever you want, but just, it's about trust. It's about making it last that long till she trusts you. That you really won't make her do anything she doesn't wanna do. Which she knows isn't what you mean. She trusts you, she loves you, she knows you're a good guy, but this is what trigger means.
15:40 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:42 Esther Perel? And it's an honor to be the person who's gonna be there to heal with her.
15:49 Speaker 03 A challenge, that's for sure.
15:56 Esther Perel? A challenging honor.
15:58 Speaker 03 A challenging honor, yeah, you took the words out of my mouth.
16:03 Speaker 03 You said what I thought.
16:07 Esther Perel? And the reason I asked you if it's different when she initiates is because sometimes the experience for some women is that in the initiating, I know I'm doing what I want.
16:22 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, when she initiates, then it's basically straight to sex.
16:27 Esther Perel? Slow it down too. If you can, slow it down too. Because it's about challenging the frames of mind. I know you get hard, you get turned on, you get aroused, you get excited, you wanna, you know, that's there. But I think it needs new input. It's not what a guy expects from me. It's not what every guy wants. It's not what every woman needs to do. It's not the way I can keep him. It's not the way I will prevent him from leaving. It's not, it's all of those
17:04 Esther Perel? thoughts roaming and capturing a person's freedom and imagination.
17:12 Speaker 03 We've, we've been trying to redefine the lines of communication around intimacy.
17:19 Speaker 03 I, well, last night, I mean, I told her, you know, like, I'm not gonna ask if you wanna have sex anymore. If you wanna have sex, you just, you know, it's up to you. So we're trying that for a while and we'll see.
17:37 Esther Perel? But when you say we're not gonna have sex, where does sex start for you?
17:42 Speaker 03 Well, not, not that we're not gonna have sex, that I'm not gonna bring it up.
17:46 Esther Perel? Right. And sex starts where? Meaning I'm not gonna pressure you, I'm not gonna push you, I'm not gonna be the one to constantly think about it, ask for it. And what is it, what is the it? Where does it start?
18:00 Speaker 03 Well, I guess with foreplay.
18:04 Esther Perel? Keep going. Do you just ask to be held? Do you ask to be kissed? Do you ask to be, to have her hand in your hair? I mean, are there things that are not the sex demand? But they are physical. They are even sensual. They are even erotic, energetic. But they don't necessarily say, we're going to do sex.
18:29 Speaker 03 Uh huh, uh huh.
18:32 Esther Perel? Is that, where does that feature?
18:34 Speaker 03 Um, I think that I definitely do those things, you know, like I'll massage her or something like that. Maybe I'll like rub her feet or something. But, but usually like if I do those things, I don't transition into sex from there. Sometimes, sometimes I will, but, but I find that I get a similar reaction either way.
19:00 Esther Perel? And if you ask for something? Can you ask, that is not what you call sex? Can you ask for physical expressions?
19:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, usually it, like, there isn't an issue with that. I think it just depends on like where I'm touching, you know?
19:19 Esther Perel? Can you imagine that she has a whole body? And you don't have to go for the genitals or the boobs? Unless she takes your hand and brings it there. But the body is the biggest sexual organ, the skin, followed by the mind.
19:37 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, I will try not going, not touching the very erotic areas at all unless she, you know, takes it there and we'll see.
19:51 Esther Perel? Or take her hand and just tell her, you take my hand where you want it to go.
20:03 Esther Perel? And say it. What I called it with her is I said, you be the driver of the driver. Because you're working hard at trying to guess what does she like, what does she want, what is okay, what is not okay. And it it's tough.
20:17 Speaker 03 Right, yeah, it's exhausting.
20:19 Esther Perel? And it makes you doubt yourself and you feel like you're losing your confidence and the natural feeling of it all. And so just say, here's here's my hand. You take it anywhere you want it to be. It could be on her face, it could be on her neck, on her shoulder. It will feel nice because you will feel like she's in it with you. It won't be about what it is that you're doing. It's the fact that it's being done together. Rather than you're hoping that you're not having a mishap, that you're not walking a thin line of where is it wrong and where's the mistake and where is she gonna shut down.
20:59 Esther Perel? So the pleasure will come from staying connected at first, not from the big production. Shall we check that with her? See if that's something?
21:09 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:11 Esther Perel? Thank you.
21:11 Speaker 03 And I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get it.
21:13 Esther Perel? Okay.
21:18 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
21:30 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
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23:02 Esther Perel? We just started a new year, and that often comes along with starting new things, including listening to new podcasts. So if you're new here, or you haven't been with me for a while, welcome back to my office. I'm excited to be featured in Apple Podcasts' New Beginnings campaign. And for the whole month of January, I'm offering you 20% off the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad-free version of each session, and you will have access to my new Apple channel. So let me tell you about that, because here we are, eight years later, with a huge, robust archive of episodes.
23:47 Esther Perel? So one channel is the classics, one channel are the clinical conversations, one is for the special guests that I have hosted, and one is for all of us who were curious about the long-term update about the couples that we have seen. What happened to them? Two, three years later, what happened to these people? So I've organized it thematically, I've organized it so it's less unwieldy, so that when you have a concern, you can go straight to what interests you. So things are gonna look better and a little different. So join me on my office hours on Apple Podcasts subscription for a 20% off by clicking the
24:30 Esther Perel? subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin? show page. See you there, and thank you.
24:39 Esther Perel? Hi.
24:39 Speaker 03 Hi.
24:41 Esther Perel? How have you been since we spoke?
24:44 Speaker 03 Good.
24:45 Esther Perel? I was asking him what you had brought from our conversation so that I could bridge and what stood out for you, kind of what stayed.
24:55 Speaker 03 I think the biggest thing that really stuck with me was like that it's not so much that we're like incompatible more than I need the space to be able to, I don't know, like share my desire and that maybe like changing the way that we initiate. Driving the driver really stuck out to me. Like that's the one thing that really has stuck in my head, like driving the driver.
25:27 Esther Perel? Did you try it?
25:29 Speaker 03 No.
25:30 Esther Perel? Ah.
25:32 Speaker 03 Mm-mm.
25:33 Esther Perel? How come?
25:34 Speaker 03 Um, I think I just, I'm scared.
25:40 Esther Perel? To?
25:41 Speaker 03 To try it. I want it to work and I want it to be something that's like successful for us. So I'm scared that it's gonna fail.
25:50 Esther Perel? Tell me something, do you drive a bicycle?
25:53 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know.
25:54 Esther Perel? Do you think that when you learn to bicycle, you never fell off?
25:58 Speaker 03 No, I definitely did. Yeah, I definitely fell.
26:01 Esther Perel? And did you become a good bicycle driver?
26:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:05 Esther Perel? Alright, so success is not something that happens in the first try. You fell, you got your bearings, you learn to do slower, faster, to stay upright and you don't think about any of this over the many, many years that you've been riding a bike. But it's gonna be the same. To find a groove sexually is not something that you do once and you and it works or it doesn't work. That's not the way it works sexually. It's a different story.
26:41 Esther Perel? But it demands a lot of good communication between the two of you. More than anything else. It's, and that's part of why I thought, mm, I'd love to meet him and have him in the conversation because I could see how it becomes a story of we are incompatible when that's not what this is about.
27:03 Esther Perel? And it's not about, I like droplets and he pours a bucket. It's about really communicating with him what feels good and taking the initiative of telling him, you're not going to offend each other. You're actually going to feel that you're bold and brazen and you're investing into this dialogue. That's called a sexual communication. And you may not know instantly what's the way to drive the driver. And you may think it's this, but then afterwards you realize it's that. But one thing you know is that driving the driver is a way of feeling that you are not
27:48 Esther Perel? pushed, coerced, and controlled, but that you experience your own taking charge, your own freedom, your own desire, your own autonomy. And that that's something that he can join you in. That's not something that you're doing against him. Because there's nothing more exciting than to see someone who's into it. Yeah. Is that a fair statement? Yes. I don't really know, like, where to go from here. From here. All right.
28:29 Esther Perel? So one thing I said was foreplay is not the thing you do just five minutes before the real deal. To me, foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm. It's the way that you cultivate an erotic energy that lingers so that you don't have to get someone into it, you don't have to get them in the mood, you don't have to turn them on.
28:59 Esther Perel? There's an energy that is present. And the most important thing to start for both of you is to not have pressure. For you not to feel like there's an expectation that you're either gonna meet and dissociate or not meet, and then he's gonna be frustrated and rejected. So that's the dance you're trying to step out of. So no stimulation through genital touching, or thigh, or boobs, or breasts, because that's all very explicit. It says, "I want sex, we're going to have sex." And there's nothing wrong with this.
29:42 Esther Perel? It's just that when you are in the presence of even the most loving man, and he tells you, "I want sex," that doesn't invite you in a good space. Yeah. So it's, "I love being next to you, I'm with you, this feels nice, I wanna touch you, I wanna kiss you, I wanna hold you." Many, many times, it will stop right there. And that's when you will learn to trust, that you don't have to subject yourself. And that's when you have a much better chance of coming to him, because he's not after you. You know, otherwise, it becomes the, "I'm counting days while you're counting days,
30:25 Esther Perel? and I'm looking at you, looking at me, to tell you that I know what you're thinking, even though you're not saying it." And it becomes this whole thing. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying?
30:38 Esther Perel? I'm asking him to.
30:40 Speaker 03 No, I do, yeah.
30:42 Esther Perel? Yeah? Does she know that I'm thinking that I'm, that I know that she's not thinking that, you know, "He wants it, that's on his mind, it's not on her mind." When will it ever be on her mind? It's never on her mind. "I'm tired of this, I've never been like this, this is not the way I've known my relationships to be, oh, I better do something because he's getting upset." And it becomes this whole surveillance system. That's not intimacy. In which each of you is looking at what is the threshold of the other. So you start by asking him things that feel good. That's it. If he touches you and it doesn't feel right, take his hand and put it where you like it. Even if it doesn't move.
31:26 Esther Perel? If you just put it here and that's where you want it to be, he'll stay there for a while. If you wanna move it from your chest and bring it to your neck, he'll stay there for a while.
31:37 Esther Perel? Because he will appreciate. You're there with him. It'll slow it down. You may have less intercourse for a while, but you will, you'll shift this. You wanna be able to keep your eyes open and just be in front of him and synchronize your breathing together a little bit. And know that there is no demand, no coercion, no control. We, so a couple of weeks ago, we had tried, um, like sensate touching. Where we would touch each other. Um, and sex was like completely off the table for the time that we were doing the exercises.
32:20 Esther Perel? During that time, like it was working for me. Like I felt myself opening up more. And like being able to let go. But it didn't last very long. Meaning? Um, we just kept getting kind of like stuck in this, the same cycle. Like it's not, it's taking a little bit too long for you to initiate sex. So I'm gonna initiate and I'm not really responding to that and it's like the same. Right.
32:54 Esther Perel? This is a question to you, sir, because it's going to be a bit frustrating. But you're gonna get your girlfriend to be present with you. And then it will be an offer that you can't refuse.
33:08 Speaker 03 Well.
33:09 Esther Perel? That's what, that's the challenge, right?
33:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to be more patient now, so.
33:17 Esther Perel? And when she's present, if you can tell her what it feels like for you to have her there with you, even if it's just sitting next to each other or naked face to face and do nothing. You know, sex isn't just intercourse. It's a broad landscape. And people can do sex and feel nothing. And people can do very little and feel highly erotic. And you'll encourage him to jerk off if he wants that, if he needs the release, if he enjoys the release. You'll do it sometimes if you feel like it
33:57 Esther Perel? because it's a nice, fun thing to receive without feeling I'm obliged. But you want to be more demanding rather than just avoiding. Demanding in the good sense of the word.
34:14 Esther Perel? I guess that's something I'll have to practice because I am not used to it. You can write him a note. You can put it on the fridge. Tonight for tomorrow, little request. You can play with this. Don't make this very serious. Anything on the menu? Anything I can serve you? Would you like any special room service? I mean, play with this.
34:39 Esther Perel? Open yourself to the discoveries that will come along. There's a whole world to talk about. And it has less to do with what you do and more with what you're dreaming of, what you're imagining, what you're thinking about. When we were doing the exercises, I found myself fantasizing about it and about him.
35:02 Esther Perel? Do you know that?
35:03 Speaker 03 Well, that's a conversation we had just last night. I asked the question, "Do you ever get turned on when we're together?" You know, and she says, "Yes." And I said, "Well, when's the last time?" And she says, "A couple of weeks ago." And I said, "Well, I didn't know anything about this. Why didn't you act on it, you know, communicate it?" And she said, "I don't know."
35:29 Esther Perel? So start asking her, tell me what you think. Tell me what it feels like. Track it. In a nice, gentle way, ask each other. You know, some people find doing sex much easier than talking about it. And most people have a much easier time talking about sex with everybody but the person that they're having sex with. When you say you didn't tell me, ask her, what was it? Do you know?
35:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, we talked about it, yeah.
36:01 Esther Perel? And what was it like for you to hear it?
36:04 Speaker 03 I mean,
36:07 Speaker 03 I don't know, I guess my immediate thought was just, you know, like, I wish I would have, I wish I knew.
36:12 Esther Perel? Uh huh, uh huh. So, that's not the end of the story. From there, I think the sensitive focus is great. Because it gives you a zone where you know it's not gonna go, so you get to explore in everything else. And turned on, what she described was, my mind was turned on.
36:35 Esther Perel? My imaginative space got lit up. It doesn't mean just I got lubricated, I got wet, I got all excited physically. For her, it will start up in the head and then it will travel down. If these lips open, so will the ones between her legs. So the kissing will be a lot more of a turn on than any of the target are touching. Does that feel to you part of the honor or part of the challenge?
37:09 Speaker 03 The foreplay, you mean?
37:10 Esther Perel? Yeah, everything I just described now.
37:13 Speaker 03 No, I mean, I enjoy foreplay. I just, you know, am used to this feeling of, anytime I try to initiate foreplay, it's just, she automatically feels pressure, so it's, you know, I do it anyway. But I always feel like, you know, she's not gonna be into it because she automatically is gonna just go to that place.
37:35 Esther Perel? You're gonna tell her upfront.
37:36 Speaker 03 Right.
37:37 Esther Perel? You will tell her upfront, this is for us to play. No pressure, no demand after that. Trust me. And even if you want to, I won't let you. Because if you don't let her, she will want more.
37:54 Esther Perel? When I describe it, do you feel the playfulness in it? Or does it, or do you get more in touch with your frustration?
38:02 Speaker 03 No, I mean, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And I'm definitely open to more foreplay. And it's to be determined, you know, what the result will be and how long it'll take for these things to work. Because so far, it's been, it's been a challenge. But yeah, I mean, I, I want for that to work, you know, for it to be easy.
38:38 Esther Perel? When you say it work, you mean what? What is work in sex for you?
38:44 Speaker 03 Well, what I mean is, you know, I want for us to just be able to just coexist intimately and, and we touch and kiss and maybe one thing leads to another sometimes, you know what I mean? And to me, that's normal. Um, but I just feel like as of late, that that hasn't been happening. There hasn't really been any leeway for that. So, I mean, we'll see, you know? I'm gonna do what you said with communicating. This isn't about sex. And we'll see, I mean, it's, it's every day is, it's one day at a time, you know?
39:24 Esther Perel? See, the thing is, it actually is sex. But sex isn't just something you do. In my mind, sex is a place where you go. Inside yourself and with another. Our deepest emotional needs are expressed in the physicality of sex.
39:47 Esther Perel? And that's the conversation. It's like, where do you go? What does it mean for you? Where does it take you? What part of you gets expressed there? And that's a different way of talking about sex and about turn-ons and about arousal. And it will open a whole new door for both of you.
40:14 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.
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40:44 Speaker 06 I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.
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40:54 Speaker 04 Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours. Stonefire. Together we gnaw.
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41:47 Esther Perel? People can do the act sex, and nothing happens to them. And what you want is something to happen to both of you and between the two of you. Don't wait because you're looking for the right moment, when I'm comfortable, when he's OK with... The more he will know that you are engaged in this with him, the better it will be for him. Otherwise, it feels lonely. I'm the only one who cares. You could have a little notebook in which you write your thoughts, your thoughts, your experiences. And the notebook stays on the kitchen table, and you get to read it. It's about a different way of sharing with each other.
42:32 Esther Perel? And I was thinking about that. And I have this fantasy in mind.
42:37 Esther Perel? Et cetera, et cetera.
42:39 Speaker 05 I mean, for me, like, that's for, that's like what I
42:45 Speaker 05 want our sex to be like, is like not the physical acts of or like the final goal is like to have penetrative sex, like I want it to be an experience, like for me to be able to fantasize about it and then feel, like, carry that energy through.
43:03 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
43:04 Speaker 05 Um.
43:05 Esther Perel? But you have never told any of that to him. He knows very little about your erotic self. And probably vice versa. You know, it's one thing to talk about what we do in sex, it's another thing to talk about what we're thinking about while we're doing it. What was it like when you told him what you were thinking and fantasizing about, just the actual sharing of that for you, what was that like?
43:32 Speaker 05 Really vulnerable.
43:33 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
43:34 Speaker 05 Uh, but it was like in the context of a heavier conversation, so it wasn't like this is what I'm thinking about and like stoking it for myself is more like I'm explaining.
43:46 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
43:47 Speaker 05 Or like defending myself more than.
43:51 Esther Perel? And now?
43:53 Speaker 03 And I, when I asked the question, I didn't mean for it to be something where you had to go on the defensive eye. I honestly wanted to know, I mean, you know, are you ever turned on when we're together? You know what I mean? It's not, it wasn't like the argumentative stance that I was trying to take.
44:12 Esther Perel? Were you surprised with the answer?
44:14 Speaker 03 Um, I mean, I don't know, to be honest. The mental aspect of me knows there's some level of attraction because we've had sex many times and we've been in a relationship for almost four years. But when it feels like you're constantly being held at arm's length, it can make you feel like, well, maybe, you know, we need to just face, face the fact that you, you're not attracted to me. And maybe that's just something that we, neither of us wants to face.
44:53 Esther Perel? I think he needs to hear something from you, so that he doesn't go off in that kind of thinking.
45:04 Speaker 05 That's definitely something that I've.
45:07 Esther Perel? Been thinking about, and I'm so like, I think about everything. Yeah, I, but I'm saying, right now, don't go off in your thinking.
45:19 Esther Perel? I mean, like, I, I definitely desire you, there's desire there. And it, mostly, like, when you're doing your own thing.
45:30 Speaker 03 And you're very serious, or like, playing video games, and like, you're in your own world. Like, that really gets to me. And like, I love you and I, I want, I want you, and I want this with us, like, I want that.
45:51 Speaker 03 Well, I love you too, babe. Like, I find you very attractive. I think you're a very handsome man.
45:57 Esther Perel? And I like looking at you, I like looking at your face, I like looking at your body, like. Do you tell him that often, or not enough? Not enough, I don't think. It's very rare. Hmm, you've got, you have homework. Did it land on you?
46:17 Speaker 03 It did. Yeah, I mean, you know, it, it, it's like I know these things.
46:26 Esther Perel? But I love hearing it.
46:27 Speaker 03 Sometimes, yeah, it can, you can forget.
46:31 Esther Perel? Yeah.
46:34 Esther Perel? And this is part of sexual communication. If you need to hear it, you say, tell it to me again, I love hearing it. Shower me with that. If he needs reassurance, or if he needs affirmation, you tell him again. People at eighty still wanna hear that. I mean, this is not something you said on the first week and then you're done. This is juice, nectar. And especially, if there is the challenge that you have currently, you need it even more. Part of why people begin to have sexual challenges, one of the many reasons. Is that all of this stuff disappears, and they just think that they can roll over and start fucking.
47:20 Esther Perel? So, all of those exchanges. All of those poetic liberties make a huge difference. It feels good to say it, it feels good to hear it.
47:35 Speaker 05 Yeah, I can definitely do that more.
47:40 Esther Perel? Does he do it to you?
47:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, all the time.
47:45 Esther Perel? And are you able to receive it without pressure, as pleasure?
47:51 Speaker 05 Sometimes, I don't always receive it, like, just a statement. And more of like, pressure.
48:02 Speaker 03 Uh, I I just feel like, to a degree, everything I do, it's like, we were talking about it and, I don't know, a part of me has thought that like, the best thing for me to do is nothing, but then that doesn't accomplish anything. Nothing never accomplishes anything, so.
48:18 Esther Perel? Listen, it's not you.
48:20 Speaker 03 That puts me in a box.
48:21 Esther Perel? It does, it does, and that's why this is less about sex and more about sexual trauma. And healing, so that sex can reemerge freely and joyfully. It's not you.
48:38 Esther Perel? And you need to tell him that.
48:41 Speaker 05 I have.
48:43 Esther Perel? No, but not once, not once, you know.
48:49 Esther Perel? He loves you, he wants you, it's everything you would hope for. And this is not about doing wrong things, or everything I do goes off track. And when he says something beautiful and it pressures you, just tell him, tell me again. And then try to breathe through it and to make the space so it can actually enter and you can hold it.
49:16 Esther Perel? Or have, take his hands, put them on your heart, and just tell him to say it again, and it's all he needs to do. I wanna hear it again, it didn't really register well, and give yourself the gift.
49:31 Speaker 05 Yeah. I guess I've just been so like, I don't know how to receive pleasure. Um, my comfort zone is like.
49:46 Speaker 03 Me initiating it. And that's where I I can let go. And allow myself to feel good, because I feel good and I feel powerful. And receiving is hard.
50:01 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
50:04 Esther Perel? Which is why.
50:07 Esther Perel? I want you to think small.
50:11 Esther Perel? Even if it's just his hand in your hair, what would be if he was sitting next to you now and you took his hand, where would you put it?
50:19 Speaker 03 Either in my hand too, or on my back.
50:22 Esther Perel? Okay. Start with that.
50:26 Esther Perel? And then, if you wanna move it, move it. And then tell him. How it feels like. So he knows.
50:36 Esther Perel? This doesn't mean you're gonna do this for seven years, you know?
50:40 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:41 Esther Perel? Just.
50:43 Esther Perel? I was trying to reassure you. But take his hand.
50:50 Esther Perel? And place it somewhere where you want him to give and you can receive.
50:59 Esther Perel? Is this a good place to stop? It's just an arbitrary spot, but. Maybe too.
51:07 Speaker 03 Gotta wrap up somewhere, huh?
51:09 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, yeah.
51:10 Speaker 03 Yeah.
51:11 Esther Perel? But does it give you a place to start?
51:14 Speaker 03 I would say yes. I think so.
51:20 Esther Perel? So have a little notebook. Our erotic meanderings, our erotic life or something, name it, give it the name you want. Doesn't have to be a serious name. And write in it to each other. Sometimes it's easier to write than to speak.
51:40 Esther Perel? Then you can discuss it later if you want, but just to have a place where you, I thought of, I saw this, I imagined that. I would love that. On and on like this.
51:52 Speaker 03 Yeah. I would like that.
51:56 Esther Perel? And you?
51:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm open to it.
52:04 Esther Perel? Okay. I'll be in touch.
52:15 Speaker 07 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] .
52:38 Speaker 07 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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54:02 Speaker 04 Stonefire Knon is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery, charred flatbread for any meal.
54:07 Speaker 05 I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.
54:10 Speaker 06 Stonefire Knon is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.
54:14 Speaker 04 I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy OK?
54:17 Speaker 06 I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.
54:20 Speaker 05 Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?
54:23 Speaker 06 You can share Stonefire Knon with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.
54:27 Speaker 04 Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we Knon.
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