Priya Parker: Fight With Your Friends! (Part 2)

Are you scheduling your friendships to death? In Part 2, Trevor, Eugene and conflict resolution expert and author Priya Parker take aim at the modern epidemic of ‘optimization’, mourning the death of the unannounced “pop-in” visit. They deep-dive on the cultural importance of conflict at weddings and why some cultures argue for fun while others take it personally.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

  Previously on What Now? I think there's two animals that I think are not, should be held accountable for sins of their forefathers. Dogs?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  German shepherds?

• 0:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, German shepherds.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Specifically?

• 0:12Trevor Noah?

  Hey, German shepherds have been in the...

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yes, the wrong side of history.

• 0:16Trevor Noah?

  Been, been, been.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  And horses.

• 0:17Trevor Noah?

  There's no... If there's a picture, a black and white picture, that involves a German shepherd, it also involves an oppressed person.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:24Trevor Noah?

  German shepherds and water hoses.

• 0:27Speaker 02

  The art of fighting is actually like one of the reasons people are falling out of community with each other is because they don't want to inconvenience each other by even the labor of a fight. I don't want to inconvenience you that you hurt my feelings. If I'm unwilling to inconvenience you by just saying, "Do you want to hang out? Or do you want to come over? Or will you do me a favor?" Then actually taking something harder, like a conversation or a part of your friendship that's not working, it's like we've lost all of our connections to each other.

• 0:58Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 1:04Speaker 03

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• 1:29Speaker 04

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• 1:49Trevor Noah?

  I'll always say when, you know, when I think of what you just said now about avoiding the conflict, I've always found it funny and ironic how honest and connected we become when we break up with people. Have you ever noticed that?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the best relationship ever.

• 2:10Trevor Noah?

  It's amazing.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, your relationship just gets so much better.

• 2:13Trevor Noah?

  It's amazing to me how romantic or otherwise, when people have the breakup, it is the most constructive moment ever.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:23Trevor Noah?

  By the way, your favorite shirt is one of the ugliest things I've ever seen in my life. Also, that thing you do when you're sleeping, that's not sexy. Oh, and another thing, your mom, she's weird. She's weird, man. I don't want to say it, but she's weird. And everyone lets all of these things out. And then you go like, "Actually, do you want to go get a drink now? Do you want to..."

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, now that's the way.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I feel better.

• 2:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, huh. But now it's because you've made the decision. No, but we already agreed that we're breaking up. We already agreed we're getting divorced.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  The stakes are off. So then you actually sort of like you relax, right? It's like when you take a picture and everyone's like, "Eeeeh." And then they, then the camera goes away and everyone's like laughing. You're like, "No, no, that's the picture you want. That's the picture."

• 3:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you're like, "That's actually the picture. That's the picture." The best picture is when someone goes, "The camera's not working." Like, if you want to get a great picture, do that with people. Be like, "Take the picture when they smile." Then be like, "Guys, the camera's not working." Then you see real face, then take a picture.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  You guys have just described Epstein.

• 3:13Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, which one?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Because that's how he took pictures. People were just like, "Eh, being themselves." And he was like...

• 3:18Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I'm just making sure you know about Jeffrey Epstein. That was, man.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Didn't see that coming.

• 3:24Trevor Noah?

  I mean, neither did I. I'll tell you that for sure. I'll tell you that.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Is this like your grocery run's a lot?

• 3:30Trevor Noah?

  I'm just like, "Damn." The fact that you also didn't say Jeffrey Epstein, you were just like Epstein. I was like, "Well..."

• 3:36Speaker 01

  You described him to a T. He never said paws, nothing.

• 3:39Trevor Noah?

  No, he didn't.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Says, "As natural as you are."

• 3:41Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Just be yourself.

• 3:43Trevor Noah?

  Be as guilty, be as guilty as you are in this moment.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, just be yourself. Just carry on committing this...

• 3:48Trevor Noah?

  There you go. Great shot, Prince Andrew. There we go.

• 3:54Trevor Noah?

  No, but I mean, like, conflict is like, it's...

• 3:57Speaker 02

  There's a, there's an honesty in it. I mean, part of what, so, so in the art of fighting, we, what I, what I'm trying to do is normalize conflict.

• 4:06Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  In our relationships. Again, it's like, how do we fight with people we want to belong to in our friendships, in our families? And so often, the, the moments where like there's a, there's a conflict is actually what we think of as like happy moments.

• 4:19Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  And people are like, "Why are we fighting? This is supposed to be a happy moment. We're getting married, right?"

• 4:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  And so weddings, family reunions, anniversaries are often these moments that are, have actually a lot of conflict because there are these moments where everyone has to see like, "Well, who are we? What does it mean to be us now?"

• 4:35Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait. So why, why do you think that's happening in those moments versus, why is it amplified in a happy moment?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Because those moments are often like tribal or community moments where the stakes are visible. And so, for example, with a wedding, it can be like, "Oh, wow, that, that's who they asked to give a toast."

• 4:54Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Right? Or, or we are a Muslim family or a Mormon family. What, are we going to serve alcohol if we have people who drink?

• 5:02Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  But we don't drink, right? Does it, we're a, a patels, you know, do we serve meat at the wedding? All of these, basically in intergenerational families, weddings are one of the last mechanisms for the cross-generations to basically argue about what does it mean to be us now?

• 5:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  And because there's what I call a forcing mechanism, there's a wedding. It's either in a church or it's not a church.

• 5:25Trevor Noah?

  So you can't avoid the thing.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  It's binary. You can't avoid the thing.

• 5:28Trevor Noah?

  You can't avoid the conflict now.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  There's either meat on the table or there's not. You either say the word "God" in the vows or you don't. And so it's, and then it's collectively witnessed. It's in front of everyone. You're not quietly eating meat on the side and then going to, you know, uncle's house and not eating. It's all there. And so there's, but it's, it's actually, in some level, it's healthy. Groups need to figure out who they are over time. Otherwise, it breaks. And so a lot of these moments, like company anniversaries, I'm often called in because a company's having, say, a 30th anniversary, and they'll say, "Well, I know you're the gathering expert, but we're having a lot of conflict." And I'm like, "Yeah, because it's a gathering." And they're like, "Why is there so much conflict?" Well, you have to decide who's going to be on the stage.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  As we talk about the past, what three products are we going to say is our defining legacy?

• 6:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  As we talk about, these are stakes, and everyone in the community and everyone outside is seeing, "Okay, what's the story? And who, what are they celebrating? And what matters here?" It's also about power. It's about identity. It's about our us-ness. And so these are moments that are actually very volatile because they help us understand who we are now.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Whenever I think of the word "fighting," I, I never, I can never divorce it from strategy. So how do you, because if you think about history, when Napoleon drove his enemies to a frozen lake only to crack the lake and drown them in, how guerrilla warfare as a term came about?

• 6:55Trevor Noah?

  Wait, Napoleon, sorry, Napoleon did what?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  He forced his enemies to ride in a frozen lake and then...

• 7:01Speaker 02

  You're really bringing a lot of like...

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Bombed and then hit cannons, the lake, and then the ice.

• 7:07Trevor Noah?

  Like, did he chase them to the lake?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  No, he forced them to come to him.

• 7:09Trevor Noah?

  Or did he invite them to the lake?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 7:11Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so he said...

• 7:12Speaker 01

  He made it look vulnerable. He made it, he made himself look vulnerable. They attacked.

• 7:16Trevor Noah?

  So he was on like one side of a lake?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:17Trevor Noah?

  And he was like, "Oh, no."

• 7:18Speaker 01

  A frozen lake.

• 7:19Trevor Noah?

  "Oh, no, I'm in trouble, I hope they don't come for me."

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:22Trevor Noah?

  And then they rode.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  "We are coming."

• 7:24Trevor Noah?

  And they didn't, oh, okay, so the lake could withstand their weight?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Until he...

• 7:29Trevor Noah?

  But they didn't consider cannons?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, cannons.

• 7:31Trevor Noah?

  And he fired the cannons onto the lake?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  The cannon exception.

• 7:33Trevor Noah?

  So that's, that's all strategy, right?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 7:35Trevor Noah?

  If you think about it. So I go, women and men and women fight differently. They resolve the conflict also differently. I think of men in conflict as the Greeks with their Trojan horse. The apology has Odysseus in it. And at any given time, when the, when the, when the walls are breached, he might just come out smelling like...

• 7:58Speaker 02

  You just threw your entire gender under the bus.

• 8:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, smelling like... I want to, I want to hear who women are. I'm waiting.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 8:04Trevor Noah?

  I'm waiting. I'll see who should be more offended.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Which summer head is her?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  You know, and I think women as the conflict in Mozambique, where there's land miles in the fields that will never get dug up when the war is over. Legs will fly at any given time, 10 years down the line, for no apparent reason, but because of that conflict. Because when the anger was so rife, the, at the heat of the moment, the land miles were put, but when the conflict ended, the bombs were never removed. Do you know what I mean?

• 8:36Speaker 02

  I, I'm listening.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  So I think of men and women's conflict that way.

• 8:39Trevor Noah?

  Can we break it down by that? Or is it more just like certain traits that people have or don't have? Can we, can we break it down?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  I think we all, we each have personal conflict histories.

• 8:49Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  And so I think that is your personal conflict history.

• 8:53Trevor Noah?

  Hundred percent.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Of the experiences in your life that you're using metaphors for.

• 8:56Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And I think...

• 8:57Trevor Noah?

  Dating Mozambican women, clearly.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Spending a lot of time in France.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Or coasting Greeks.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  He's finding his little frozen lakes.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Issuing his invitation to the frozen lake party.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Bring us gay. Ready the cannon.

• 9:25Trevor Noah?

  So everyone has a conflict.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Everyone has a conflict history. So like, what did I, what were the spoken and unspoken beliefs about conflict in my family? When did, when tension arose, who had a voice? What was I told in my family or my school or my community of how women are supposed to be or how men supposed to be? These are all like deeply, they're inherited, they're cultural. One of the books actually I read for the art of fighting is called The Culture Map. Y'all, you would love this. It's by this professor from N C O T called Erin Mayer.

• 9:55Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  And she basically looks at how in different countries are, which countries, nationalities are more conflict-seeking culturally and which are more conflict averse?

• 10:06Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  And she has like a two by two in this book. Can you guess? What would you guess for conflict-seeking versus conflict averse?

• 10:12Trevor Noah?

  Conflict-seeking, I would guess is more like, uh, melanated countries? If I'm just guessing.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 10:19Trevor Noah?

  That's what I would go with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Man, we never conquered anyone.

• 10:23Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, I don't mean like that. No.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  We were, we always, throughout history, we minded our business.

• 10:28Trevor Noah?

  No, but I'm not talking, you see, oh, that's, I was thinking of conflict in the, in the culture.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  In the community.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the community.

• 10:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I didn't mean like war.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:36Trevor Noah?

  I'm talking about like conflict.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Trevor, I would like to take this moment to apologize to you for assuming that you negated thinking about colonization and all of its bad effects. Meanwhile, you were talking about inter.

• 10:49Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm very sorry. I didn't, I didn't.

• 10:52Trevor Noah?

  I'll, I'll see whether I want to forgive you. Did we do it right?

• 10:56Speaker 02

  That's step one? It feels like there's a lot underneath.

• 11:00Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, but that's the first thing, that's what came to my mind.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  No, but I'm talking about intra. So this is what she says. Intra is with him?

• 11:07Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Okay. Um, intra, inter, it's always confusing, right? So, uh, on, if I remember correctly, the more conflict comfortable were, uh, the Netherlands, Israel, Germany, and more conflict averse was Japan, Singapore, Thailand. And as she started to map these, she basically said the fundamental difference between conflict-seeking and conflict averse is whether or not those cultures separate the personhood from the opinion.

• 11:35Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  So if I am my opinion, as it is often in these more East Asian countries.

• 11:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Then one would never get into a, a conflict about someone's opinion because you're attacking their personhood, right? It's also related to the idea of face.

• 11:51Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Whereas like in Germany, for example, and obviously there's subcultures in all of these places, but this is what the study was saying, that I can separate, we can argue all day long, sort of like you and the Indian guy at dinner. We can argue all day long because that's some of it's sort of fun and you're, and you're arguing about different opinions, but it's not actually affecting my personhood.

• 12:08Trevor Noah?

  Yes, it's a war of ideas.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  It's almost like countries that are big on organized sports. Because most of these countries love football or love a sport.

• 12:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  So they get to go, no, you are a fan of Liverpool.

• 12:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  And I'll argue with you about Liverpool, but it doesn't necessarily make you.

• 12:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's on the human side of it is, it's interesting, like, I'm just thinking now, when you said the Dutch, I was thinking of like Max Verstappen, the Formula One driver. He is like 100% conflict forward.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:35Trevor Noah?

  But when you put it like that, I go, oh yeah, because he's going, no, we're just arguing ideas. I have nothing against you.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:42Trevor Noah?

  So he'll say to another driver, that was a shit move.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:45Trevor Noah?

  But he doesn't go, you're a shit driver.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 12:49Trevor Noah?

  Do you get what I'm saying?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  It's actually separating.

• 12:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, he goes, that was a shit move. That, I don't like that, you shouldn't have done that. That was terrible, that was shit, that, but then people will go, wow, he said that person's a shit driver. And then he's like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  That's not what I said.

• 13:00Trevor Noah?

  I said that was a shit move.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not what I said.

• 13:02Trevor Noah?

  And it's interesting when you say that now, because then, yeah, but then how do we, how do we now live in a world where we don't all come from the same place?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:13Trevor Noah?

  So now Eugene is out here trying to be.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:15Trevor Noah?

  He's trying to fight with my ideas, yeah? And then I'm out here trying to fight with his person. How do we then figure that out?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  We, we, honestly, the first step is just asking that question, is actually realizing we all come, like, my first book, The Art of Gathering, was basically saying so much of how we gather now in modern life sucks, because in trying to not impose a certain way, we're not trying to offend each other. We've basically either stopped gathering or it's like super vague and everyone's having beer in the living room. And are all of our ancestors knew how to gather?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Gather.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  There was a specific way, like in the Southern Indian, Indian village, when there's a red thread tying ceremony and they tie the red thread around the wrist, everyone weeps because they know what the red thread means. And they've seen all of their uncle, you know, uncles have the same ceremony. And so in modern life, when I'm like, wanna come over and X or Y, I'm not, we don't even know.

• 14:06Trevor Noah?

  So it's funny you say that.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  What time? What are we doing? What's the food? How, and so part, both, sorry, just finished.

• 14:11Trevor Noah?

  No, no, this is very.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  The Art of Gathering and The Art of Fighting, it's basically saying in modern life, we have to one, be intentional. And two, at some level, like my first book, The Art of Gathering, it's saying, you actually need to think about what's the purpose of why you're bringing people together? And then who do you want people to, who do you want to come? But we need to actually create our temporary cultures. And so, and, and with The Art of Fighting, so many of the examples I, I look at in the book are actually like churches or teams or businesses or restaurants where people have a stake in having to have a way to have a shared conflict culture and they work at it.

• 14:46Trevor Noah?

  I was just thinking now, I can split my friends almost into two groups.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:52Trevor Noah?

  It's the friends who understand that a hang is just spending time with other people.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:59Trevor Noah?

  And then it's the other side who go, what are we doing? And then I'm always like, what do you mean, what are we doing? Like, yo, do you want to come hang on Saturday? Then like, what are we doing? What are we doing? We'll figure it out. We're hanging.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Do they, are they from different?

• 15:11Trevor Noah?

  What are we doing?

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Cultures?

• 15:13Trevor Noah?

  Completely, completely, completely, completely. But I, but there I find generally, generally for the most part, it's like Western culture.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 15:19Trevor Noah?

  Western culture is very geared around like, um, it's objective-based and it's like, what is the thing?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:26Trevor Noah?

  There's actually a book I read about this that, that finally gave me like an, like an idea that went beyond just like my anecdotal experience.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:34Trevor Noah?

  And it made me realize a lot of these cultural differences that we have as people are entirely influenced by the environments that we came from. And I mean like the actual environment.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:45Trevor Noah?

  So people will go like, ah, Africans, we don't care about time and we chill and the this and the that. It's like, yeah, because we came from a place where time didn't determine your survivability, right?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 15:57Trevor Noah?

  So the winter wasn't coming, the night wasn't getting cold.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  There's no rush.

• 16:01Trevor Noah?

  Calmate. Why are you in a rush?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 16:04Trevor Noah?

  Literally, what are you in a rush to do? You don't have to pack your day because you can do another thing on the next day and another thing on the next day and another thing on the next day. But then if you come from a climate where it gets extremely cold, there's snow, it's going to be frigid.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Fascinating.

• 16:18Trevor Noah?

  You have to be precise. You see what I'm saying?

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:21Trevor Noah?

  That horse carriage is coming.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:23Trevor Noah?

  And if you miss that carriage, you're stuck in the snow.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:27Trevor Noah?

  If you miss the harvest, you don't have any food, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So if you don't bring the animals in, they freeze to death that night.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  It's a life and death situation.

• 16:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and so in these things, I've also realized, I go like, oh, we don't, if we say to our friends in South Africa, come over.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:41Trevor Noah?

  We're having like a barbecue.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:43Trevor Noah?

  Having a bribe.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:45Trevor Noah?

  They'll say, what time? And what you mean is, from this time, I'm willing to accept people. So if they say what time and you go, 2 P M. They go, ah, that means from 2 P M, the doors shall be open. You don't have to arrive at 2 P M. In fact, when you do, it seems like something went wrong.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  You're still in the shower.

• 17:06Trevor Noah?

  What are you, what are you doing?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Trevor Noah?

  It means from 2 P M.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  I like the English.

• 17:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, from 2 P M. But then I have other friends who go, like many of my friends in, in New York, for instance, the thing happens when it happens.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:19Trevor Noah?

  They planned another thing.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:21Trevor Noah?

  And then it's like, what are, what are we doing?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Stacked.

• 17:24Trevor Noah?

  But just a good, but again, when I talk to New Yorkers, they'll go like, yeah, well, you gotta understand, like, uh, it's only nice for this many months of the year and,

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I gotta pack it in.

• 17:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I gotta, yeah, I've got a French prayer, I got a thing there, we gotta go to the park and then we gotta get a thing and, yeah, because it's gonna get cold soon. It's about to get cold, so.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Gotta get the carriage, gotta get the carriage.

• 17:43Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:45Trevor Noah?

  Just, let's just chill.

• 17:47Trevor Noah?

  Most of my friends, and I'm generalizing, obviously, because I mean, like, I think, like, like, my Greek friends can chill. They like uber chill in that way. If you go like, what are we doing? Nick, what are we doing? You'd be like, hell, we see.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:01Trevor Noah?

  You come over, we see. I'm like, I like this.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  I'm glad they evolved to that.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. But these are cultures, right? I mean, even the Bri, in part, they all know it's all a shared cultural context.

• 18:13Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  You wouldn't show up at two because you know, that's not actually what that time means. You might show up at three, you may show up at four, three. You're not going to plan something after because it could go over. Right, Argentina, same thing, like, Sunday afternoons, you, families gather, then they know, you wouldn't plan something later because then after you eat, there's sobremesa, where people like chat and talk, and then maybe they'll bring the meat out later when you're hungry again. But in modern life, we don't have shared norms. And so part of the, I mean, whether you want to call it American, or the desire to be in relationship across difference, is you kind of have to be more explicit. Otherwise, everyone just bumping up against each other. I mean, people don't host anymore. I mean, and then when you do, so many people cancel at the last minute, right?

• 18:56Speaker 02

  And so when you have a set of ten friends or twenty family members, and they just know, Sunday, two, that's just what we do. There's actually like collective rhythmic community. But in modern life, everything is a choice. You don't have to think about, what am I doing? It's exhausting.

• 19:11Trevor Noah?

  I also argue that the cancellation is exacerbated by the stringent time constraints.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Like, as a canceler?

• 19:18Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, you know why? I'll tell you why. Because when people, when people say, hey, Eugene, on Sunday, we're having this, if it's at three.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:26Trevor Noah?

  If life happens to you, which it does, and now you won't make it at three, on this side of the world, people will go, sorry, man, I'm gonna have to cancel. In South Africa, no one will cancel. Because they'll go, I'll be there at five.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll come when I'm done, yeah.

• 19:42Trevor Noah?

  They'll pop in, they know that now the meat will be cold, and they'll warm it up themselves, and the meal itself will be done. But there isn't like a, oh, wow, look who decided to show up.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:53Trevor Noah?

  Like, that's not a thing.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:55Trevor Noah?

  But I, I took for granted the fact that, like, we haven't agreed on, like, the baseline norm, we haven't agreed on the... So how do we then, how do we then start the fight? How do you?

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, a lot of fights are often happened, again, like, by gatherings, whereas at some point, somebody cancels at the last minute, and somebody else is really hurt, then you have to have a choice about whether or not you say something, and what you say. And so part of all of this is, we are all now in relationships across difference. And so often, it's like, and it could be, oh, I wasn't invited to their wedding, like, fuck, why would? I thought we were close.

• 20:29Trevor Noah?

  I'm the opposite, I'm like, ah, I got invited to their wedding, we were not close. I'm offended when people invite me to the, I'm like, I don't know you, bro. You've never been to a wedding?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  What?

• 20:39Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow, look at, I never thought I'd say this to somebody, I've been to one. Only one? Oh, don't say that to me when you've never been to a wedding!

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 20:46Trevor Noah?

  You can't be the only one.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  You've never been to a wedding?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Never.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Why?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Well, I feel like, um, it kind of reminds me of a town square, a bunch of people gathered, holding rotten fruit, a guillotine, hair being moved from someone's neck.

• 21:05Trevor Noah?

  Oh, boy.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  And then it being dropped, and then it's all over.

• 21:10Trevor Noah?

  I don't know which weddings you've heard of. That is definitely not what a wedding is.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Game of Thrones!

• 21:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that is definitely, you're thinking of the red wedding. That's a different type of wedding, my friend. It's a completely different kind of wedding.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  When I think of a wedding, I compare it to...

• 21:24Trevor Noah?

  I...

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I, I would not want to be part of that.

• 21:27Trevor Noah?

  Yo, man.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna be shouting, off with the head!

• 21:30Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  I would never do that.

• 21:31Trevor Noah?

  You are missing out.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Really?

• 21:33Trevor Noah?

  I'll say this as somebody who went to my first wedding recently.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:36Trevor Noah?

  I regret.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  You had fun?

• 21:37Trevor Noah?

  I regret all the weddings I've missed.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:39Trevor Noah?

  Yo, man, I regret them.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  They're beautiful. They're explosions of celebration, and dance, and joy, and people coming together, and a party.

• 21:47Trevor Noah?

  So much gossip.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so much gossip, they're juicy, hilarious.

• 21:51Trevor Noah?

  Are the people getting married having a good time? Sometimes.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Or are they worried about the debt, and the, who didn't show up, and...

• 21:57Trevor Noah?

  Even that makes it fun.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:59Trevor Noah?

  Even that makes it fun.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh, my god, you're not gonna guess who didn't show up?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:03Trevor Noah?

  Look at the table, you know how much we paid for each setting? I can't believe, oh, what's going on? Ah, his uncle is drunk, and he's punching somebody, and, yo, weddings are, you, I know you, you'd love weddings.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  They're very fun.

• 22:17Trevor Noah?

  You would love weddings. Hmm, you would genuinely love weddings, my friend.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  They really are. Also, when, like, we're at the age we are, it's like, it's almost like adult summer camp. When do you actually, everyone's relaxed? Whether you have kids or not? It's also really hard to be friends with people who have kids and don't, because all the coordination, and if you have kids or not, blah, blah, blah, blah. At weddings, everyone's just there, they're relaxed, everything else has been taken care of. You're fed, you're drinking, you're, whatever you drink, alcohol or not, you're dancing, you're hanging out, everyone's loose. It's so fun.

• 22:45Trevor Noah?

  And then it switches to a paid bar, it's not open anymore. Oui, that's it? Yeah, that's what I'm saying could happen, bro. Yo, you know how much drama? You know how much drama? All of a sudden, people are like, what do you mean, I gotta pay now? Ah, yo, yo, weddings. I went to one, and I was like, I am, anytime I get a chance, I'm gonna go to a wedding.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  I love this, yeah, they're very fun.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  I'm gonna expand my view, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change my perception of the town square and Marianne Internet. I'm just gonna be, yeah, I'm gonna be open to new.

• 23:12Trevor Noah?

  You don't even understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's too much fun.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  It's so fun.

• 23:16Trevor Noah?

  It is too much fun.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  It's so fun.

• 23:18Trevor Noah?

  And to your point, we take for granted that those things are fewer and further between now.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 23:25Trevor Noah?

  Group of people coming together, everyone has a different idea, everyone has a different thing, vegetarian, not vegetarian, and this person drinks, this person doesn't drink, and old table, young table, new people, old people, singles, couple, are we at the singles table? Are we the old friends, new friends? Why are they sitting that close? We've known them for longer, why are they further, they're closer, they were...

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Who's giving a speech?

• 23:43Trevor Noah?

  I also think they're an asshole, why you say, it's a good, oh, yeah, actually, don't like that, but I'm glad we're, but actually, this is nice to meet you, and...

• 23:49Speaker 02

  What'd you say your name was?

• 23:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  I'll cop sit by me.

• 23:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, oh, man.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:54Trevor Noah?

  Too much fun.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:55Trevor Noah?

  Too much fun.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Like, we need, we honestly, like, even as I think about this country, like, we need, almost like, it's just like a national wedding. We need a national party. We just need to, like, spend time together again, and laugh, and remember each other, and be like, we're all kind of full of shit, and we're all kind of trying, and we're all... It's like, you need to water the soil, everything is so dry, and calcified, and separate, and it's like, parties are incredibly important to democracy, to society, to like, feeling like you trust each other, even, even to, even for the person you don't like. You're sitting there, like, Cotton Eye Joe comes on, everyone rushes to the dance table, everyone's like, jumping around and be like, that guy's camping his, you know? The, like, cupid shuffle, and it's like, okay, okay, they're, okay, right?

• 24:39Speaker 02

  It's just like, it expands our capacity and knowledge, and just kind of like looseness with each other.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I feel like you're describing when the Knicks won.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Exactly, that's collective effervescence.

• 24:50Trevor Noah?

  That was a wedding.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  It was a wedding.

• 24:52Trevor Noah?

  It was a full-on wedding.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  It was a full-on wedding.

• 24:54Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly what a wedding is like, when it was the Knicks.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  Climbing the lampposts, right?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Strangers hugging each other.

• 24:59Trevor Noah?

  Exactly.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Walking down the street, hierarchy is dismantled, you're joyful, you feel so connected.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  People were hugging homeless people.

• 25:07Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  People were hugging everyone.

• 25:09Trevor Noah?

  It was, that's what you...

• 25:11Speaker 01

  That's what a wedding is!

• 25:12Trevor Noah?

  That's what a wedding is like. Then there's one person punching someone, then you're like, but why? That's it.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Then you got a debrief, then the brunch the next day, the debrief of the night, where are you, who hooked up with who, what are they talking about? Oh, my god, can you believe what they said? What? Delicious.

• 25:29Trevor Noah?

  Pure joy.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Can't wait.

• 25:36Trevor Noah?

  Still to come in this episode. But I would have done, Eugene, you be the eleven-year-old? Let's do this, so I'll say the thing, everybody, and I got sitters, so that the kids can be way over there, and we can enjoy ourselves. Now you be the eleven-year-old.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Hey, Uncle Trevor.

• 25:50Trevor Noah?

  What? Yes?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Don't you want us here?

• 25:54Trevor Noah?

  I'm glad you asked me this, kid. If I had my way, you guys would all be shipped to an island? Until you're fully grown adults? And then you would engage with us? Because let me tell you something, you coming, standing here, putting your hands on hips you don't even have yet, as an eleven-year-old, trying to tell me shit in my own house? Do you know what a mortgage is, you little shit? Do you know what a mortgage is? You gonna come in here and put hands on hips that you don't even have? Yo, you best not know, you do not know who are clearly in your house. Clearly, which one is your parent? Let me go and talk to them.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Uncle Trevor, there's something that you're missing.

• 26:30Trevor Noah?

  What is the thing I'm missing, kid?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Hips don't lie.

• 26:34Trevor Noah?

  Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you

• 27:18Trevor Noah?

  based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. Then it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. Every day, it feels like I'm on a new scavenger hunt, but not the fun kind. I'm constantly switching between countless apps just to try and find the information that I need.

• 28:03Trevor Noah?

  Like the other day, I was trying to find the address of a restaurant someone had sent me. Simple enough, right? But then, this is what happened. I opened my messages. I saw a video somebody sent me of a parrot singing opera. And then, the next thing I know, I'm watching an interview with a woman who trains parrots. Twenty minutes later, I know the average lifespan of a macaw. I've forgotten where I'm supposed to have dinner and I'm wondering whether I have what it takes to raise a bird that might outlive me. Enough with digital rabbit holes. Thankfully, my Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence. Helpful suggestions pop up right in the text thread when I'm making plans, proactively pulling up restaurant details, calendar availability, or live flight info. The info you need, right when you need it.

• 28:48Trevor Noah?

  Learn more about what the Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and older. Make sure to check responses.

• 28:59Speaker 05

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• 30:01Trevor Noah?

  You know, this is, this is, this is a conundrum I've been, it's been spinning around in my head for a while now as I go.

• 30:09Trevor Noah?

  Is all progress progress? Or have we been sold the idea of progress?

• 30:18Trevor Noah?

  In, in, in a, you know what I mean? It's like, we get sold progress because somebody tells you that it is.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:24Trevor Noah?

  Right? I, I think about this in all facets, right?

• 30:29Trevor Noah?

  I remember the, the conversation was sparked when I was chatting to a female friend and she said,

• 30:37Trevor Noah?

  "Man, I, I really can't believe I got tricked into this whole corporate bullshit lifestyle. I really wish I could just stay home and be a mom." And then like, we laughed and I was like, "No, wait, are you being serious?" She's like, "I'm joking, but I'm also being serious." She's like, "I, I want equality, but I actually didn't want this shit." I, I just wanted to be allowed to go work and I want, but I, and I want independent, but I don't want, you know what I mean?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  This isn't the form of that I imagined.

• 31:01Trevor Noah?

  And then we laughed and then we got into conversation. Then we were with a bigger group of friends, we started chatting about this. And we're like, sometimes progress is sold as progress. Or it's just a move in a direction that is sold as progress. But you don't realize that in order to move towards something, you have to move away from something else, right? And so I think of gatherings and all that. You know how much harder it is to gather when everyone's working the jobs that they're working?

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:27Trevor Noah?

  And then the cost of things is so much higher. And then, you know, there's more pro, there's even, even progress in terms of like, let's call them dietary restrictions, which I know is a small thing, but in a weird way, it's a big thing.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:41Trevor Noah?

  Because it is progress to consider everybody's dietary restrictions.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is progressive.

• 31:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes. But you know what also helps? Just being like,

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Having a shared meal.

• 31:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, just being like, we've cooked. And then you're like, "I actually don't eat that." "Ah, well, too bad, buddy, but you're here now."

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:56Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean?

• 31:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know if progress is defined as, I, I think progress, I don't know if it's defined this way, but the way we use it often feels like, again, to start, go back to our first conversation, the rise of convenience, the rise of efficiency, but also the protection of the individual at all costs.

• 32:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Right? And so this, like, the dietary thing, at some level, you are maybe are, you know, rising the level of what people's preferences or allergies are. But you're also actually, as you're saying, you're also leaving back something else.

• 32:30Trevor Noah?

  Well, that's what I mean, that's what I'm saying. If we, if we just, even, I mean, it's at the risk of just being like, you know, really semantic about it. It's like, progress just means movement forward in a certain direction. That's all it means. But it doesn't mean better necessarily. We've, we've equated it with better all the time.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Or we need to define it, like, does progress mean the, better for the collective good?

• 32:49Trevor Noah?

  See, we don't know.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Or does progress mean, we don't know?

• 32:51Trevor Noah?

  And we, when we lived in a house where

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:53Trevor Noah?

  each kid couldn't have their own room. So cousins were all sleeping in the same bed.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:58Trevor Noah?

  We were all on the floor together. Like, when I would go and sleep in my cousin's house, there was no bedrooms, the plural.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 33:04Trevor Noah?

  It was like, okay, bedroom.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:06Trevor Noah?

  Kids, done. That's all you have room for because that was already where the kids of that house slept.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:12Trevor Noah?

  Bedroom, everyone.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  The intimate knowledge of your cousin's.

• 33:14Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you, that's exactly it, my friend.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Cause we would sleep like this.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 33:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. Head to toe, head to toe.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Head to toe, head to toe, head to toe, head to toe.

• 33:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. But guys, I can't think of more fun, intimate conversations, joy, like, lights are out because you've all been told to go and sleep.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:33Trevor Noah?

  People are giggling, somebody farts. Now everyone is laughing and people are telling stories. Someone starts saying something scary and other person's like, "Stop that." And you, then an adult comes in and is like, "I told you to sleep."

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:44Trevor Noah?

  And now everyone's, that moment.

• 33:48Trevor Noah?

  But when you, you, there's progress in your family. And now you have multiple bedrooms. And now everyone has their own space. And so when everyone goes to their room with their own phone and their own room and their own bed and their own everything. And now you just don't have those memories and those stories at all.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  I mean, this is, my husband, he's actually been, I think, either on the podcast or on The Daily Show with you, Anand Girdardas.

• 34:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yes, of course.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  So his first book is called,

• 34:12Trevor Noah?

  Wait, that's your husband?

• 34:13Speaker 02

  That's my husband.

• 34:13Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow. Look at that.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  So his first book,

• 34:16Speaker 01

  You could have sold him better from the beginning.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Sometimes I just, you know, I wanted to talk about floss first.

• 34:22Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's hilarious.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  I needed to pull you in first before I dropped that. So Anand's first book is called India Calling. We were, we, we met, we're Indian-Americans, but we both met in Bombay when we both moved there after college. And his, the best chapter in Mumbai.

• 34:40Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm, no, I'm just joking. You remember the thing I told you? So this is like, this is like one of my favorite things that happened to me in India is whenever I would say, like, so we first started off in, in New Delhi. And then I'd meet someone, it didn't matter who they were, man, woman, young, old, whoever. And I'd be like, be like, "So Trevor, where are you going to be going in India? Where's your tour taking you?" And I'd be like, "Oh, I'm gonna be in, in Mumbai." And they'd be like, "Oh, Bombay, that's gonna be great." Then somebody else would be like, "Trevor, so where are you gonna be performing?" I'd be like, "Oh, I'm gonna be in Mumbai. Oh, Bombay is lovely. Have you been before? So great." Then I'd be like, "Oh, man, I'm in, I'm saying Mumbai, everyone's saying Bombay." And then the next person I got to, they're like, "So where are you going?" Then I was like, Bombay. They're like, "It's Mumbai. The name has changed. It's Mumbai."

• 35:23Trevor Noah?

  Then I was like, "Ah, guys, I feel like you're tricking me." Cause you just said Bombay and I'm like, "No, this is, this is like an elaborate scam."

• 35:30Speaker 02

  As an elaborate scam.

• 35:31Trevor Noah?

  That Indians are doing to you. They just keep shifting the move. Bangalore, Bengaluru, Bengaluru, just say Bangalore.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  But yeah, sorry. You met, you met.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Well, actually, on his first ever article, he was a foreign correspondent for the New York Times.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  And his piece that he like tried out for and then published was actually the name change of Mumbai and Bombay.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  No way.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  And the psychodrama. And it's the most beautiful piece. He's, and if I remember correctly, it was like, you host a business meeting in Mumbai, but you call a lover to Bombay.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  So he wrote this book, India Calling, and one of the chapters, to go back to what you're saying, is it was so brilliant. It was a Punjabi family where there's two brothers, joint family. And as one of them basically like had a, got a job, I can't remember what it is, we made more money. He slowly and secretly started to build a second floor on the house with just one bedroom for his, for his family. No, nothing to see here, folks, nothing to see here.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Okay, then a second bedroom as he got more money. No, no, no, this is just for our kids, but we'll always keep coming down. We'll keep coming down, share a kitchen, share a kitchen. Okay, and slowly, slowly, slowly, the ultimate like nail in the coffin was they built a second kitchen.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Ayy.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  And that was the full separation of these two families.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Eighteen A, eighteen B.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  But though he showed, basically all of India Calling, so much of his work is ideas through people. And this idea that basically it was a collective joint family. And then the idea of progress, and there is some progress in it. There is beauty in having your own bedroom.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  There, there's also a lot of stuff that happens, you know, when there's like 20 cousins and no one's paying attention. And you know, like, there's also a lot of dark stuff that can happen, right? There's, there's good and bad in the collective. And there's good and bad in the individual.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  And so he wrote this book that was basically like, what happens when two brothers basically break and have, through the physical creation of the second floor?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, two kitchens.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  And, and two kitchens. And then I remember the other detail in that chapter was the, the, the, the, like, there kept on being blackouts in the, in the house, like electricity, we call it bijjli cuts.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  We call it load shedding.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so the, the older, the brother basically wanted to put, if I remember correctly, like, protect the wires. And with, I can't remember what it was, but something so that it wouldn't, they wouldn't go out. And, and the younger brother was like, no, no, no, no. Like, you have to just pray, it's God.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  And so then you also see like,

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Right, the, the separation from religion, but one choice at a time.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  And so much of his work is basically looking at the collective and the individual. But it's through these, it's the trade off. His mother, Indian immigrant, she will say she, she moved here 40 years ago, had, was an educator, like deep, like had her own job, made her own money, was the director of an art department, like deeply learned all of these ideas that she would never, and she would say this, never otherwise learn if she had stayed in India, in India. And she says that the single biggest, her biggest grief in leaving India is the death of the pop in.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Hey, you speak about this as well, the death of the pop in?

• 38:43Trevor Noah?

  The king of the pop in.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:44Trevor Noah?

  In my, all my friends will tell you, I.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  You pop in?

• 38:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. No, but I also encourage it to be like, in, I'm like, in my house.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  But explain why, explain why.

• 38:55Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  And what it is, for those who don't know what a pop in is.

• 38:57Trevor Noah?

  So here's the thing. I, because I noticed it the other way around with my friends. I would, I started having to like call everybody, text everybody, and let them know that I would like to pop into their abode. Sometimes I'd be driving past.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Announce yourself.

• 39:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, sometimes I'd be walking past. But it was like this big dramatic like, hey, are you going to be at home today? I would love to pop by to say hello to you. And then the person would be like, ah, I'm really busy and I'm doing stuff. And I'm like, okay. And then I'd be like, hello, what do you plan to be doing in the next week? And they're like, oh, no, the house is really filthy right now.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:33Trevor Noah?

  And then I realized that I was doing the same thing. People would go, hey, can I come over? And I'd be like, when? Hmm, I'm not sure. And, uh, oh. And then one day I went, wait, we never used to do this. People would just pop in. You were just in your house and all of a sudden someone would go, Coco. And you're like, oh, I guess there's somebody here. Hello. They would be looking for my grandmother, let's say. She's not here. She went to the shop, the shops, but now they're talking to us. Ah, Trevor, how are you? How's school? Ah, how are things? Okay, where's your mom? Where's your, okay, yeah. And now we've had a little conversation. Then the person leaves. Another person would pop in. We would pop in.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:11Trevor Noah?

  And, and that little pop in created these weak ties that are way stronger than we think.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:16Trevor Noah?

  I always think of these ties like, like little silk threads. They're little, little spider webs where individually, they're not particularly impressive. But if you thread them over time, you can create the strongest material ever.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 40:28Trevor Noah?

  And that's what I think a community is. So for me, as you know, I go, I love it when my door just opens. And someone's like, yo, I was just, I was just here, just popping by.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:38Trevor Noah?

  And they grab a glass of water.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:40Trevor Noah?

  We chat for 15 minutes, they leave. Or they stay for three hours.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:43Trevor Noah?

  Or they go, I was going somewhere, do you want to come with me?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he loves it.

• 40:46Trevor Noah?

  That thing.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  He loves, he lives for it.

• 40:49Trevor Noah?

  Joy.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  And mostly he's not wearing a shirt at his house, so.

• 40:52Trevor Noah?

  This is it, baby.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  We have to suffer that.

• 40:54Trevor Noah?

  This is it.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  That's why I tell you I'm coming over.

• 40:58Trevor Noah?

  Because you want me to put on a shirt?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:01Trevor Noah?

  My man.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Because sometimes, you know, I've started being happy for you for the small mercies. I'm like, at least he's wearing pants and no shirt.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  No, at least he's not inviting you.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Imagine if it was the other way around.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Careful of the frozen lake.

• 41:19Trevor Noah?

  But that, yeah, but that, that pop in thing. So that's what I think, so here's what it is. I love that you brought up self-help. Because the, the conversation I've been having with Eugene and most of my friends recently as I go, I think we're now experiencing a, an epidemic of optimization.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:37Trevor Noah?

  Everything's being optimized in the world. Everything.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:39Trevor Noah?

  Every, I, I had one friend tell me.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:42Trevor Noah?

  Straight faced, yeah, um, I have to, I'm going to hang out with this person. I hang out with this person, I just met them. And then I was like, oh, I was like, you're really intense on this. He's like, yeah, well, um, I just listened to this podcast where they said, in order to create a friendship, you need to spend, it was like, however many hours with a person and then you become close friends. And then I said to him, I was like, yo, how many hours? And I think whatever, he's like 100 hours or, and I said, let me know when we get to 99 so I can cut you off. Because I do not want to roll. No, I was like, no, bro. I don't want to roll. And we laughed and I was like, I said, dude, don't do that.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:15Trevor Noah?

  Don't, don't optimize your friendships.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:18Trevor Noah?

  Don't optimize your relationships. Don't opt, you can make them better. You can try and improve them. But we've got to be careful of optimizing everything.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:26Trevor Noah?

  I watch kids at the park, like my friend is a young little toddler, so we have to go and like, they're busy playing and stuff. And you see some parents like optimize the playing experience.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Trevor Noah?

  Okay, you've been on this thing for that long. And then they move them to like the swings. Okay, you've been on the swings, 10 minutes on the swings and then we're going to move you to the, and then I asked one parent, like, what are you doing? And they said, we've got an hour. So what I try and do is make sure they play at everything so that they don't feel like, they, so that when we leave, they don't go, but I didn't play on the swing.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 42:53Trevor Noah?

  Then I'm like, yeah, but that's, in my opinion, that's part of life is going like, you chose.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Friction, yes.

• 42:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but you also chose as the kid. And now you start learning, oh, okay, I've got to allocate my time. These optimizations, if we're not careful, rob us of the thing that we don't realize we need to keep.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:15Trevor Noah?

  So with pop-ins, we optimize everything. Okay, I, I want my house to be perfect. When my friends come over, we're going to spend this much time together. This is what the purpose, this is what we'll eat, this is what we'll. Just a person bumping into you in your life, no food, no moment, no planning, your dirt, they might even help you clean up.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:34Trevor Noah?

  They might be with you while you clean up. They, those things are where I think communities are actually built.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yes, it's the intimacy of the like kurta drop.

• 43:42Trevor Noah?

  There you go.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Shruti, take my kurta.

• 43:45Trevor Noah?

  That's it.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Mic drop there.

• 43:47Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly it.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 43:48Trevor Noah?

  This has been amazing.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, what a thrill.

• 43:51Trevor Noah?

  This is fantastic. What was the last thing you, you, you had conflict about? Because I'm interested now, before you go, I want to know, because your conflict with sweaty palms, when was the last time the palms were sweaty?

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, literally all day, every day. Conflict is part of daily life. Like, I, I, I have a sub stack called Group Life. I actually, literally, I dropped this piece this morning, so I'll just tell that story, which is.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  You had a busy morning.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  I had a busy, I didn't write it today, but it like, it came out this morning. I wrote it last night. It was, my husband and I, a couple of years ago, had a barbecue, a bri, and we invited 20 friends. And we're in the phase of life where 20 friends kind of means like 20 kids. So there's 40 people, right? So all of a sudden, there's 40 people. And I, I was thinking I was being thoughtful and I, I, I booked two teenage babysitters to kind of help with some of the kids.

• 44:38Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Thank you, that's what I thought. So it's time to eat. And what we do is my husband, Anand, makes the meat and we have everyone bring side dishes. So it's time to come, we put out one long table. And in sort of, I wasn't really thinking, I was trying to be funny. So I welcome everyone and I say like, welcome, we're so happy to have you here. And actually, we have two sitters here. I was sort of trying to honor the sitters.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  With two sitters here. And, and so come, get a plate. We are so happy to have you, adults, you can sit over there. And don't worry, we have these sitters, your children will be far over here. Yay. So I sit down feeling very proud of myself, go get my plate. And this 11 year old girl comes up to me, hands on her hips. And she says, do you not want me here?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah, yeah. Ay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I love it already.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  And I'm like, what? And my, I'm like, my chest is burning. I'm like, what, like? And, and I go through my own, like, who does she think she is? Right, or why do I even host?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Why do I even try? I'm just trying to be nicer. What a, who, who, whose child is, you're like, going through my own, like, mm, mm, mm. And then I pause and I take a deep breath and I put my big girl pants on and I let the arrow pierce.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  And I think about it and I think back to what I actually said. And I could see, and at some level, I was thinking like, the two and three year olds, it's, it's, it is a lot to chase them around. I want to give my friends with two and three year olds like a break. 11 is different than two.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Right, 14 is different than two. So I took a couple of deep breaths. And I can be really defensive. So this is also my work of like letting the arrow pierce, not finding the thing that she was wrong about. And I went back up to her and I was like, I said her name and I said, I'm really sorry. I absolutely want you here. And then I said, you know, and what I said was clumsy. And I didn't, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings and I shouldn't have said that. And then I explained it. I was like, you know, it's like two and three year olds are different than you. And she's like, oh yeah, they're totally annoying. And then I was like, and I'm really sorry. I will not, I thank you for saying that something to me. I will not ever say that again. And she's like, that's okay. And she ran off. But part of what I'm practicing is like, we think so much about the art of fighting,

• 46:54Speaker 02

  like those difficult people over there.

• 46:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  And it's like, you know.

• 46:59Trevor Noah?

  Starts here.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  And so part of what I've been trying to practice in my conflicts, in my, like, someone calls me up, I did something to hurt them. Like to not, not just let it burn, actually to let it burn. And then to say, and to start with like the phrase, literally, thank you for trusting me enough to tell me.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's very important.

• 47:22Trevor Noah?

  It's a very different, I'll show you what I would have done. You be the 11 year old. Let's do this. So I'll say the thing, hey, everybody, and I got sitters so that the kids can be way over there and we can enjoy ourselves. Now you be the 11 year old.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Hey, Uncle Trevor.

• 47:34Trevor Noah?

  What? Yes.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Don't you want us here?

• 47:38Trevor Noah?

  I'm glad you asked me this, kid. If I had my way, you guys would all be shipped to an island.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Aye, na man aye.

• 47:45Trevor Noah?

  Until you're fully grown adults. And then you would engage with us. Cause let me tell you something, you coming, standing here, putting your hands on hips you don't even have yet, as an 11 year old, trying to tell me shit in my own house. Do you know what a mortgage is, you little shit? Do you know what a mortgage is? You gonna come in here and put hands on hips that you don't even have? Yo, you best not know, you do not know who are clearly in your house. Clearly, which one is your parents? Let me go and talk to them.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Uncle Trevor, there's something that you're missing.

• 48:15Trevor Noah?

  What is the thing I'm missing, kid?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Hips don't lie.

• 48:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you see, I wish you had that sense of humor when I was making my jokes. You little shitty 11 year old. It's called a joke. You're gonna get bullied your whole life if you don't understand jokes. In fact, you know what? As your punishment, come sit at the table and all we're gonna talk about now is the Middle East. Yeah, you're gonna see how fun this is. Yeah, you could have been at the sitters table, talking about kids' life and cocoa melon. And now, look now, huh? You're gonna be talking about your favorite YouTube channels.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Now it's Bangalore, Bangalore.

• 48:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, now we're gonna be talking about geopolitical issues. Yes, straight off hummus, baby. I hope you're ready. You little 11 year old shit. Yeah. Welcome, welcome to my house party.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? You're invited next year.

• 48:59Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man, this was so much fun. Priya, this was amazing.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure.

• 49:03Trevor Noah?

  This was too much fun. I hope every, like, yeah, I mean, just the vibe of it. We gotta do it more, you know?

• 49:07Speaker 02

  So good. Bring me to that grocery store, I'll come along.

• 49:09Trevor Noah?

  Ah, we're in.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Welcome to the poppin'.

• 49:10Trevor Noah?

  We are in. Welcome to the poppin'. This segment is brought to you by Verizon. With their Simplicity Plan, you pay just $30 a line per month, even for a single line. People, I think the holidays have become unnecessarily complicated. And I don't even know what happened. Cause when you think about it, the original idea was pretty simple, right? You get together with the people you love. You eat some food, you exchange a few gifts, you spend some time together. That's it. That was it. But somehow, we've turned it into an international summit. What happened? You can't just have dinner anymore. No, no, no, no. First, there's the group chat, always the group chat.

• 49:55Trevor Noah?

  And the group chat, it always starts off innocently enough. Yeah. Hey, guys, should we do something for the holidays? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds great. Oh, my God, Trevor, that sounds like so much fun. Let's do it. And then there's always somebody who says, okay, so I've created a spreadsheet. Aha, now it begins. Cause once the spreadsheet arrives, you're no longer celebrating the holidays. You're managing a project. It's exactly what it is. And you know who you are in my group chat. Suddenly there are tabs. There's a tab for food. There's a tab for who's bringing what. There's a tab for dietary restrictions.

• 50:39Trevor Noah?

  There's a tab for the gift exchange. Somebody has created a separate document explaining how the gift exchange works. Why do I need terms and conditions to give somebody a candle? And yes, that's what I always give is a candle. But I think there's something interesting about how we do this. I think there's really something that we gotta focus on. We start with something we genuinely want, and then we keep adding things and adding things because we think every addition is gonna make it better. More decorations, more activities, more presents, more traditions, more admin. And eventually you've added so much that you don't even have time to enjoy the thing that you were trying to create. You know what I'm talking about.

• 51:22Trevor Noah?

  I think some of my favorite moments, when I think about it during the holidays, have actually been the moments when nothing particularly impressive happens, you know? Nothing. Yeah, you, you know, those evenings when you finish, you finish eating, nobody's rushing anywhere, somehow you're all sitting around the table, you're having a conversation. Three hours later, you're still at that same table. Somebody starts telling a story you've heard a million times before, but this time it's somehow funnier. Someone remembers something from 15 years ago. Somebody else remembers something else. There's an argument, who's actually right about it? That's the joy, that's not in a spreadsheet. And before you know it, you're laughing hard. You've forgotten what time it is. That, my friends, is the purpose. Nobody scheduled that. It's simple.

• 52:04Trevor Noah?

  There wasn't a tab labeled spontaneous joy 9:30 PM. Ben, it just happened. And maybe, that's what I wanna do a little bit more of this holiday season. Just a little bit of that. Not necessarily do less of the things I love, just do less of the things that get in the way of them. Because sometimes simplicity isn't about giving something up, it's about getting back to the reason you wanted it in the first place. And that's something I appreciate about what Verizon is doing with their Simplicity Plan. The name says it all. One plan, one price. Because if there's one thing I've learned, it's that having more choices doesn't always make life easier. Mm-hmm, it's true. Sometimes you just want somebody to say, here, this is what it costs, this is what you get.

• 52:48Trevor Noah?

  Simple as that. Wonderful. Now I can get back to the truly important decisions. Like whether I'm attending the holiday dinner where everybody has to dress as their favorite Christmas ornament. Because apparently that's a thing now. This is a thing. And I have questions. So many questions. It's one plan and one price, and everyone gets Verizon's best 5G network. Switch today at Verizon.com or your nearest store. For new customers, $30 per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage. Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds.

• 53:33Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

• 54:04Speaker 04

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