Jay Stratton’s FIRST-EVER Interview - Before The World Knew His Name

Before Jay Stratton became a public face of the UFO disclosure movement, before his book Out of the Shadows, and before his revelations about non-human craft and beings made national headlines, George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell traveled to Huntsville, Alabama, in 2022 to record his very first on-camera interview. Now, WEAPONIZED revisits that historic conversation with the former director of the Pentagon’s UAP Task Force - the man who helped shape AAWSAP, AATIP, and the government’s modern UFO investigations. In never before seen footage, Stratton reveals how the Pentagon investigated the TIC TAC, GIMBAL, and GOFAST encounters, why he consulted engineers at Lockheed Martin’s Skunk Works and Boeing’s Phantom Works, and what happened when military UFO evidence reached his desk. He also confirms that the massive AAWSAP database became a foundation for subsequent government investigations. Knapp and Corbell examine Stratton’s newly public claims about recovered non-human technology, his identification as the mysterious “Axelrod” from Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, and the alleged CIA intervention that prevented a transfer of UFO-related materials from Lockheed Martin to Robert Bigelow’s research program. Check out Jay’s book here https://a.co/d/0d9pe6LnGOT A TIP? Leave a message for us at +1 (323) 484-4738Reach out to us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠•••MERCH : https://Weaponized-Shop. Fourthwall.comMAIN : https://YouTube.com/@JeremyCorbellCLIPS : https://YouTube.com/@WEAPONIZEDclipsMORE : https://WeaponizedPodcast.com•••Watch SLEEPING DOG movie : https://SleepingDogMovie.com•••Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠•••You can now watch all of Corbell's movies for free on YouTube here :BOB LAZAR : AREA 51 & FLYING SAUCERS⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/sZaE5rIavVA⁠⁠⁠⁠HUNT FOR THE SKINWALKER⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/TczkJ6UAQ8A⁠⁠⁠⁠PATIENT SEVENTEEN⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/gDVX0kRqXxE⁠⁠⁠⁠•••For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com•••WEAPONED is produced by Michael Lazovsky https://MichaelLazovsky.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:00George Knapp?

  Jay was at the DIA at the same time Lukatsky was there. He was sort of on loan from the Office of Naval Intelligence and worked with Lukatsky, came up with the idea for OSAP. He was one of the formative figures in putting that program together. This was the first on camera interview he ever did, and it took a long time for us to talk him into it. Jay, have you done an on camera interview before? Have you done interviews before? This is the first.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  The sphere with a cube in it that Lieutenant Graves saw, you know, in the gimbal, right? In the go fast, those, you know, those things came across my desk. I was the first one to get them in the Pentagon because it was my job.

• 1:48George Knapp?

  This is Weaponized. I'm George Knapp here in Las Vegas, joined by my friend and colleague Jeremy Corbell, who's lounging. What are you doing? Just goofing off?

• 1:56Jeremy Corbell?

  Deep research, man, deep research. There's so much going on in the UFO field and it's pretty interesting to see everybody talking about it, so.

• 2:04George Knapp?

  Yeah, so, you know, last week we touched on it just a little bit. Robert Bigelow had received a letter from the DIA saying, hey, we found the long lost OSAP files. And, you know, I don't have a copy of the letter, so I can't release it. It's not to me, but I did read it. There was some confusion in the beginning. Bigelow thought they were telling him to go ahead and release the files, which I don't believe he's even seen in years. But in actuality, they were telling Mr. Bigelow as a courtesy, DIA has found them. They're going to start the process of redacting them. And I think they were looking for a little bit of help from, from Column and Bigelow, who had gone through that stuff. Column has probably seen more of that, those documents than anyone.

• 2:48George Knapp?

  Of course, as we know, you know, a lot of that stuff has been released. We released it, you know, the dirds. I started posting those on KLAS in 2018. And with permission, I didn't want to cross a line. Some people who had helped me get copies of that had said, it's okay. We gave some of them to Joe Rogan right on the air, you'll recall. And then, you know, and some of the other reports have been leaked over the years. Various reasons behind that. I think one report, a 10 month report that was put out by someone intentionally leaked, I think to try to embarrass OSAP in comparison to the rigorous scholarship of ATIP. Because that 10 month report had a lot of crazy stuff in it, a lot of crazy, wacky

• 3:33George Knapp?

  stuff that seems on its face to be outrageous and unbelievable, but which really did happen in and around Skinwalker Ranch. So, you know, some of the stuff that's going to be made public eventually, we don't know how long it's going to take. The redaction process is going to take some time. There's sensitive information in there. A lot of the people who spoke to OSAP and the investigators did so with the promise that their names would never be made public. So you've got to take those out and honor that promise. You've got current military people or still on duty or intelligence officers whose names should not be made public because it puts them at risk. That has to be taken out.

• 4:14George Knapp?

  And I hope they did a, do a better job of redacting these documents than say the Epstein documents that were leaked with all kinds of names that most certainly should not have been made public. And it's going to take some time. I mean, it's a lot of stuff. You'll recall Jim Lukatsky, who was the program manager, he wrote this book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, with Column Kelleher and a little bit of help from me. And it draws the broad strokes of what those documents include. Everything in that book and the books that followed is from those documents. So he wanted the public to know. He did the necessary redactions. It took 14 months for DOPSR to approve that information coming out. But still, the public will want to see these, these papers.

• 4:56George Knapp?

  They'll want to see it for themselves once DIA can go through it. I don't know. Do you think DIA purposely hid them and pretended they couldn't find them?

• 5:05Jeremy Corbell?

  No, you know, I don't think that's the case. I, I do know that when they, so they wrote a letter. Let's back up for everybody. So this huge program, everybody's been talking about OSAP, the $22 million, not ATIP, but OSAP that was misreported in the New York Times. Everybody's caught up now, right? Like this big program. You know, obviously there's tons and tons of data and information. We've heard about it for years. We've been interviewing Dr. Lukatsky, Dr. Kelleher, even the first interview you did with Jay Stratton in Huntsville, Alabama, years before he was a public figure and just asking him about all this. So we know that there's this big archive, the DIA had it. Dr. Lukatsky admits to digitizing everything.

• 5:48Jeremy Corbell?

  No, I don't think it's sinister that they never found it. I think it's easier to not find it. But now with Pursue in Motion, they have now found the files. And how we know that is you broke that story. You were on the Bigelow podcast and he received a letter from the DIA saying, we found all these files and, you know, we want your help in, you know, basically sanitizing the names of individuals and stuff that shouldn't go out. And that's where Dr. Lukatsky, Dr. Kelleher could really help with that. And then basically get that out through Pursue. So this is great. This is what we've always wanted. You've tried to bring a 141 plus document of the technical aspects of the Tic Tac UAP encounters into public realm by bringing it to Congress.

• 6:31Jeremy Corbell?

  I remember we were there in Congress and you were, you were trying your hardest to get that onto congressional record. But as a journalist, you know, when you obtain something, you know, you don't necessarily have the right to just throw it out into public view because then you'll never be given that trust again. So it was a really hard moment where we were unable to make that happen. Later, some of that got leaked out. And I do remember that, that, that technical report did later in 2025 did leak out. So we saw it coming. So bottom line is this, there's now like an authorization from the DIA. They found the OSAP files. When they say that, I don't know what they mean because Dr. Lukatsky said they had, I

• 7:16Jeremy Corbell?

  think 109 really intense reports. But of course, there's all the notes, there's all the investigations, there's, there's everything that went into that that might be contained within BASS. I'm not sure. So I don't know when the, when the DIA says, we found them. What exactly did they find? In fact, I wrote some FOIA's to the DIA this weekend to say, what exactly, can you give me that letter that you gave to Bigelow? And can you tell me what it is you found? Now, I don't have high hopes that they're going to detail everything out for us, but they did answer us last time, George, which was pretty amazing.

• 7:52George Knapp?

  Maybe, maybe they will. Yeah, I don't believe the DIA was purposely hiding this stuff and pretending they couldn't find it. They've had hundreds of FOIA requests, including from me right in the beginning. Hey, can I get these documents? And their answer is always, hey, we, what documents? We don't have them. I think that they were being honest. I, I suspect that Dr. Lukatsky, clever guy that he is, electronically copied them and stuck them in a file somewhere that made it not so obvious and easy to find them. And they really couldn't find them. So when the White House asked, hey, what about these OSAP documents? We want to see them. And DIA had to say, well, we don't, we can't find them. I think they were being honest about that, not trying to stonewall the public, FOIA,

• 8:37George Knapp?

  Congress, all that stuff. But they did. They went back and looked and found them. And now the process is going to start. And, you know, some of that stuff is out. Some of it has been reported in Dr. Lukatsky's books. And, you know, when, when you see these documents, I mean, there, there's nothing that the public shouldn't be allowed to see as far as I can tell. There's some scary stuff in there for sure and a lot of weird stuff, but the public is not going to freak out when they see this stuff. The report that you and I wanted to give to Congress about the physics of the Tic Tac, and it's not just that case, a lot of really hardcore engineering data analysis of cold hard facts about how fast it was moving and, and speculation about how it might, what

• 9:21George Knapp?

  the propulsion might be. That's the kind of stuff that the public says they want. I'm not so sure that's true because I know that Lukatsky, his second book that he wrote, which was all physics and engineering, measurements of how heavy these craft were when they landed, how fast they, they moved, the fact that they could go right through solid material, analysis of meta materials that might help that kind of a propulsion system. People demand, we want the data. And the data was provided and nobody read that book. Nobody, nobody bought it. So I suspect that's what we're going to see with these documents when they come out is a lot of people like, is that all there is? Kind of moan and grind and groan and, and whine. And, but there's some good stuff in there.

• 10:05George Knapp?

  The difference is it doesn't contain the context such as from Lukatsky, Column, et cetera, Jay, people who really did work on these programs, did the analysis and understand why particular facts and aspects are really important. But I'm glad it's finally going to happen. I know it's not going to happen fast enough for the public, but the fact that it's coming out, that's great. Can't wait to see it.

• 10:33Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, and the other kind of big thing that's happened this week, obviously, is, you know, Jay Stroud's new book has finally come out, and people are dissecting it and they're analyzing it. I'll remind our audience, because I think it was the second Weaponized where we showed clips of our interview with Jay Stroud. It was the first visual interview, the first interview he has, he had ever done. And I was looking back at that this last couple of days, and how natural he is. He's just telling it like it is. It was really cool to see that interview. It was summer, George, of 2022, when you and I flew to Huntsville, Alabama, and we got to do that interview with Jay and with Travis. And you really,

• 11:14Jeremy Corbell?

  you asked him, I mean, for hours, over two hours, you asked him about all the architecture of the programs, what's been going on. It was just really cool to see that, and reflecting on that now compared to the media tour that he's doing now to promote his book. And he's gone prime time, man. He was on with Fox, he's on with CNN, News Nation. I'm sure there's a lot more coming. You got, you got to promote your book, you know, once it comes out. And it's a great book. Like, you know, I read through most of it so far. I'm really taking my time with it. But he makes some pretty, you know, interesting revelations. He tries to lay it out, his perspective, what he's been fighting for this, and what his direct knowledge was. And I always found that interesting. He's been out there saying,

• 11:57Jeremy Corbell?

  you know, I have seen non-human craft and non-human beings. And I've always wondered, where did he see a non-human being? Because like, news people will call me up, like, as if I have any information. And they'll be like, you know, did he see that in official capacity, even political people? And my response is, I don't think so. I think that was part of the aftermath of, of when he's investigating this stuff. But I think he did say on Tapper that it was a personal encounter with a gray being outside a window of his sons. So I'm glad he's clarifying that, because leaving that open, people are going to be like, so you saw the bodies, the Roswell bodies, were you in the skip? Look, you don't do more than you need to do. Tell it like it is. And I think he's, he's doing that. I'm starting

• 12:41Jeremy Corbell?

  to see him really just put it out there.

• 12:44George Knapp?

  It, it arrived at my doorstep two evenings ago, and I said, I'm too busy. I got this to do and that to do. I'm not going to start reading it. And I brought it in. I might as well just take a look at it. And then, you know, open up the box and, wait a second, look at this chapter here. And did some speed reading, and I realized, holy crap, this is full of really good stuff.

• 13:04Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah.

• 13:05George Knapp?

  I got to give it the proper time. So this weekend, Saturday, I'm starting and going all through it. But, you know, what I've seen so far, just taking a glimpse at it, absolutely packed with great stuff. I think, most interesting, and you've seen it in these early interviews that Jay has done, is that he acknowledges that he is basically Axelrod. He's the guy that we wrote about in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, who had these strange encounters on the ranch, as did every other intelligence agent that went there as an assignment. Every single one of them had an experience there, and every single one of them took it home with them. He's the guy who not only changed UFO to UAP, he's the guy who came up with the name Hitchhiker. It's, it was the name of the band that he's in with Travis Taylor

• 13:49George Knapp?

  and, and Micah Hanks and others. And it's now changed to the Hitchhiker effect. But Jay called it a hitchhiker, I think, in a conversation with Colin Kelleher. And that's the name that stuck, because that's what it's like. For whatever reason, you go there to that property and have an experience, and something follows you home. He had shared privately with me some of the things that happened to he and his family. I couldn't say anything about it. You know, we had a pseudonym in the book about some of it. But it went on and on for years. I, I think it might still be going on. You know, he, his two sons had lived in that house after Jay and his wife moved to Alabama, and the stuff

• 14:29George Knapp?

  was still going on there. And it followed Jay and Michelle to Alabama as well. What is it? It acts like a virus. It spreads. And then, you know, in, in this book, he acknowledges that it happened to his kids, scared the hell out of them, Wolfman outside the house, werewolf type figure that takes off running. And then, the kids had not told their friends what was going on, but the friends started having these experiences as well, and telling Jay's sons about it. I'm so glad he came forward with the admission that he's the Axelrod guy. And I know that every single interview he's going to do on this book tour is going to have a Wolfman question in it, as a way to, you know, oh, you believe in

• 15:11George Knapp?

  Wolfman, right? And I don't know if there's a better way to answer it, but, you know, that's what hostile interviewers were certainly use that question as a way to undermine his credibility. But it's real. And he's not the only one to whom that has happened.

• 15:26Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah. So we, you know, I'm curious, can we play some of the clips from the first interview he ever did, that you did with him in 2022? I think that's really important for the public. You know, he talks about having utilized the OSAP archive to kind of get his bearings with some of what he was doing. I think it's a historically important interview. Can we play a couple of clips from that?

• 15:48George Knapp?

  Yeah. So just some context before we jump into it. But, you know, Jay was at, at the DIA, at the same time Lekatsky was there. He was sort of on loan from the Office of Naval Intelligence. And worked with Lekatsky, came up with the idea for OSAP. He was one of the formative figures in putting that program together. And he did, the very first investigation that OSAP did was into the Tic Tac case. He interviewed the key witnesses and wrote a report on it. And, and I made that, we made that public in 28, back in 2018. So he went on from OSAP. He then reignited a sort of a working group that came to be known as ATIP. Again, you know, New York Times broke that story, and it changed the

• 16:31George Knapp?

  world. And I know we've quibbled with the story. I think those reporters did the best they could for the time and what they were allowed to report. Louis talked about ATIP because he was involved with Jay. He was not part of OSAP. He would have been part of it. He was going to be the counterintelligence officer if they had been made into a SAP, a special access program. But he got fever, UFO fever, and, and stuck with it. Jay and he and a group of others had this working group called ATIP. And then that New York Times story comes out, and suddenly Jay is getting calls from his superiors, hey, you were involved in this stuff. What's the deal? And he starts getting invitations to brief members of Congress, and tell them what, what they had discovered during those two

• 17:15George Knapp?

  investigations about military encounters, civilian cases. And so, after a few of those briefings, they casually created what later became the UAP Task Force. And Jay became the first director of the UAP Task Force, and they did good work. We know personally that they ran interference for journalists, when, you know, the lies that are told by the DOD back then, deny everything, dismiss it, it's not a UFO, who cares, get out of our face, kind of an approach. He made them answer the questions. He made them acknowledge, yes, this is a real Department of Defense video that somehow leaked. I think Jay was embarrassed about it, because we know him. I've known him a long time, before I could

• 17:59George Knapp?

  ever even say his name. And I certainly would not report it, even after, you know, the UAP Task Force was known, was a known entity, and his name was out there. So he was the only person I know of that was OSAP, ATIP, and UAP Task Force. And you'll remember, man, the reports that he and Travis put together, they had 144 UFO cases, and 143 were unexplained, very unlike what came next. You know, they, they were doing too good of a job, the Task Force. So Pentagon got rid of them, and then made AMSOG, and then made Arrow. And, and we've seen how that whole investigation has gone since then, not, not very well. But

• 18:42George Knapp?

  Jay was doing a great job. He didn't stick with the DIA all the way through OSAP. He, he was sent back to ONI, but he stayed in touch with all the principals. So he was up on everything they were doing. So I'm sorry, I got too carried away on that intro here. But this was the first on-camera interview he ever did. And it took a long time for us to talk him into it. Jay, have you done an on-camera interview before? Have you done interviews before? So this is the first, we're trying to distinguish between, is it a threat to us?

• 19:13Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, right.

• 19:14George Knapp?

  Could it be Russian? Or, and then at some point, you realize, maybe it's not theirs, but we need to work on it anyway, because we need to build it if we can.

• 19:21Jeremy Corbell?

  Absolutely. So if you're looking at those technologies, and you decide, okay, this seems to exceed ours, then you, then you have a few avenues you could potentially take. Some of those I won't talk about. But

• 19:36Speaker 03

  I would be and have gone out to your industry experts, right? The folks you would think of Lockheed Skunk Works and Boeing Phantom Works, your skunks, and try to get them engaged. Hey, here's what I've got, right? Brief them on what I have and then kind of put their brains to work and get them to tackle. Hey, can you build that? You know, can you do this now? And sometimes they would say, Jay, we can't talk to you, right? Because it's either their own money, you know, the IRed money, we call it, the independent research and development money that Boeing's paying or Lockheed's paying, or they might be working with the Air Force and they don't want to burn a bridge or someone else, right?

• 20:17George Knapp?

  I mean, you'd go to them to ask them, hey, is this you? I mean, you've got something.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  I absolutely did that.

• 20:22George Knapp?

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And again, because of the various positions I had, I had relationships with all those folks, right? So I'm not walking in as a stranger and saying, hey, you know, can you look at this for me? I'm walking in as, oh, he's here, you know? What can we do for you, you know? And the same with government offices.

• 20:38George Knapp?

  Can you speak in general about the things that came across your desk that suggested to you, this is really exotic? I mean, I don't know what kind of parameters that you can share with us about the types of information that came your way?

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't want to touch on a whole lot of that in very specifics, but we can use, you know, examples of things that have been out in the press recently, right? So the sphere with a cube in it that Lieutenant Graves saw, you know, in the Gimbal, right? In the GoFAST. Those, you know, those things came across my desk. I was the first one to get them in the Pentagon because it was my job, right? I was in a job where we're assessing foreign versus, you know, the blue concerns and we want to make sure we're not surprised. And then I get these videos that, hey, Jay, you know, one person's going to know who this is. Jay may know what this is.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  I immediately take those videos down the hall to my Air Force brothers and my, you know, and the DOD and everybody else and get them to look at it, right? So trying to rule out us. And so if you take those examples, you know, still to this day, I'm the guy who told the press that these are unidentified, right? Because I didn't, you know, one, we got to be honest with the American people, it's our job. And two, why would I go on and say it's something it's not, right? So it's unidentified. We don't know what it is. That's the root of the word, right? So you got those, you got, you know, the backstories on those are very interesting and that's what you got to think about, right?

• 22:19Speaker 03

  That the, there's more than just a video. There's more than, and you got to take that whole picture and then shoot for that data-driven assessment or an answer, but that whole story is what kind of makes it more important than just seeing a video. The 2004 incident, the most important thing that was accomplished in every bit of that investigation was the fact that we talked to the pilots and we didn't ridicule, we took them seriously and we listened to what they were saying and we tried to do something about it, right? That's what I didn't want to die, right? I didn't want that to go to the Pentagon and fall on the, kind of, floor because it's weird. I wanted somebody to go talk to the pilots or whatever came in, right?

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Go talk to those people and figure out what this means.

• 23:05George Knapp?

  So OSAP is dead, but there are guys like you and Lou who had been at least involved in one or another.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Around, yeah, right.

• 23:13George Knapp?

  Who want to keep it going. Was it informal in the beginning and it became something else or would you describe the evolution of it?

• 23:21Speaker 03

  Sure. And I know Lou kind of hates it when I call it a working group, but that's what I would call it. Lou would call it an organization or a team, you know, a program, a team. It all gets lost in DC, right? It doesn't really matter. If you're not on a budget line somewhere and getting funded to do work, I mean, but what we were doing was important and we knew we could make this happen. And again, it's in my job jar, right? This is something I do for a living. Lou was in USDI and he was a policy guy and he was at the higher headquarters. And what did Lou do? Lou opened doors for me when I needed help and, you know, any other service colleague.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  So you can call it a working group, call it a program, call it, but it existed, 100% existed. And it existed in order to keep on that drama of preventing disruptive technology and tech surprise. And we worked together and we had friends that helped, right, to try to get answers on anything that came in. And the day that I got the Gimbal video, I went to Lou. You know, Lou was the first person I brought in the room to say, hey, Lou, what do you think of this, right? You know, and then I go down the hall to start talking, you know, is it ours question? So, you know, that's very important that, because Lou would, again, biology background, right? Different background, always looked at things differently. And he'd come to me and I would look at it from that, you know, kind of aerospace perspective

• 24:50Speaker 03

  or maybe the military perspective and say, that doesn't make sense, you know, or whatever I would say, right? So it's important to understand that he and I complimented each other very greatly and other teammates from OSAP or from the old days complimented each other because we were there for a reason.

• 25:06George Knapp?

  OSAP's gone, ATIP's there, informal, formal, whatever you want to call it. You get Tic Tac comes in, you'd already seen that for a couple of years.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:16George Knapp?

  Gimbal comes in. Can you tell about that day when you first saw that? What's your take on that? Wow?

• 25:21Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 25:22George Knapp?

  Full fleet of them?

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Right. So, you know, when I see that, I'm going to go to it from a different perspective than the fleet guys that got it, right? Because the fleet guys sent it to us thinking, oh, you know, we're going to send this to the Pentagon and they're going to tell us it's ours and we're going to have to sign some paperwork and, you know, it'll be it. And that's actually one of the big stigma points, right? They don't want to report it because they think it's ours and they don't want to deal with all that extra hassle. But it did get to me. At the time, I was running an office that used to be called Deep Red where we were kind of experts on blue and experts on red. And the whole office was designed to make sure that we were fully informed is the term on everything so that, you know, if there was some leading edge, potential disruptive

• 26:07Speaker 03

  technology, we would make sure the right people understood it and prevent us from wasting a lot of money building something that could be easily defeated, right? So it was the right place for that video to land. I got it on my Supernet. I saw the email chain, which had gone through a lot of people before it got to us. I mean, just a lot of people out in the fleet, right? It just bounced around because they're trying to figure out what this is themselves before they even, you know, the Pentagon's like, why would I send something to the Pentagon? It's just one of the captains down there knew me from my background and he said, we need to send it up there. This guy, you know, having run Spear and Air Warfare, like, you know, see what they think, right?

• 26:51Speaker 03

  I got the chain, I saw how many people were on it and I immediately, my immediate response was stop emailing, right? Because in case it is ours, right? That's a lot to clean up. And that was my first email response to that. Recommend everyone stop emailing. And then I walked down, physically walked down to my boss and I let her know at that point, hey, kind of got a background in this topic and told her the Cliff's Notes version of my DIA experience and early ONI experience. And so she got it and I said, hey, I'll try to figure this out. And I mean, we got GoFAST at the same time, pretty much. You know, Gimbal was more interesting, for sure. And then the, like you said, you hear it on there, hey, look at the ASA, there's a whole fleet of them.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  You know, I immediately picked up on that and said, I got to start calling people. I know if you've got that, you know, data preservation, you know, let's try to get all the data we can. One big lesson learned on all of that, and Ryan Graves has talked about this too, is that feedback loop, right? So I did all this work and we were doing all this work for months. We were trying to figure out what Gimbal was, but we never once went back to that email chain and said, hey, guys, we're working on this, we're going to try to get you an answer, right? Feeds the stigma because the attitude then becomes, well, I told them and nothing happened, you know? Nothing ever came of it. So why should I even bother reporting that stuff? It just makes me look like a UFO guy.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  So some lessons were learned out of that alone, but, you know, chasing that down, but then future, right? Again, education and learning out through the process. I gotta have somebody to talk to about this stuff. I gotta understand that AT FLIR better than anybody. I gotta be able to figure out if there's an easy answer to this because, you know, I didn't even know at that time that, you know, fast forward, you know, three years, and I'm briefing Congress constantly on all this stuff, right? And maybe even better later, right? But it taught me a lot of lessons about really understanding what you're looking at and try not to let my own eyeballs be fooled. But then who in that Rolodex can I reach out to to answer those questions? And I got some of that later, and we'll talk about that.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  But, you know, and some of the key players, even through the task force. So DIA, back to the problem set of having a lot of history majors and political science majors, that Defense Warning Office that I was a part of became the TLA at Charlottesville. But they really, it came more of a very small, policy-oriented office, not really like we were, where we talked a lot about tech and had engineers and, you know, they still have some engineers, but they're not necessarily doing it right. So my point in bringing all that up, the only engineers that live at DIA are at the Missile Space Intel Center in Huntsville, where I moved to, right? I want to be here in Rocket City. Those guys were the ones that I knew I could reach out to. And because of my air warfare background for all those years, I had all my friends there.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  And ironically, I'm working with them now, you know? So it's the place I want to be, it's the people I like working with, and that's who helped me try to understand from their perspective what we're potentially looking at, because they were, really, they know how to look at some of the sensor data and such. So it's been, you know, learning and evolution throughout the process, but it's been really good to try to get the right answers, ultimately for the American public, right?

• 30:09George Knapp?

  We'll go to Lou coming out in a second, but while we are on the Tic Tac Gimbal. So you're looking at those for a while. Eventually, they get out into the public at the New York Times story.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:20George Knapp?

  And then you see all this, the social media experts, debunkers, who explain this was seagulls.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:27George Knapp?

  It's FLIR, it's a jet that's afar away. And they get a lot of attraction. They get a lot of traction, they get on television. You gotta dismiss this stuff, it's not important, it's all a barrage. Clearly, you have a lot of information that the public doesn't see, that the debunkers don't see. Are you laughing at these explanations?

• 30:45Speaker 03

  It's frustrating, right? Because later, you know, fast forward to the task force everyone knows about, you know, I spent a decent amount of time in Congress explaining why that wasn't true, based on my advisors and what I knew. So there's a lot of cleanup to do when you have a lot of these people saying it's birds or whatever they're saying. It's frustrating because you know the rest of the story, and you can't tell the rest of the story. You can't handle it, you know, hands-on and try to go, actually, that's not true. As much as you may know, everything they're saying is not true. And it's probably transpose that to any intel topic, you know, that we know a lot more about the Ukraine, or sorry, Ukraine or any of these other topics, right?

• 31:29Speaker 03

  It just transposes, just my topic happens to be one people love talking about.

• 31:34George Knapp?

  Well, I look at the explanations, I think, for this to be accurate, you have to assume that the US military is stupid, you know, that you don't recognize a bird or FLIR from some other plane.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Right. You're also discounting the pilot 100%, right? The people that, you know, there's a reason why we have officers flying aircraft, and that's because they're going to employ a weapon, right? They're making it a policy decision for the United States as they pull that trigger. And if you take that into nukes, it's even a whole different animal, right? So you got people there that we trust to employ these weapon systems and make that policy decision on the fly at some point. And they've been, some of them, Dave Fravor, for example, right, lots and lots of time, right? Somebody like that, who's an expert, and you're telling them they're seeing birds, right, or they're seeing, that's, one, an ego hit for them, and they're not going to

• 32:29Speaker 03

  put up with it typically, but two, it just waters it down. So anybody that comes forward, that has this juicy FLIR tape or anything else, are going to say, I don't know if I want the attention, right? Just be frustrated by it all. So, you know, pilot witness testimony, if you want to call it that, is very important. But I'll caveat that witness testimony slash debrief, along with data, is even more important. And the more data sources I can get, and what I was telling the fleet, you know, is the faster they can get it to me, right? Because there's no data preservation out there. So if I learn about something and I know about it the day it happens, I'm going to get a heck of a lot more data than I'm going to get even two, three days later.

• 33:13George Knapp?

  Suffice to say, as later, in UAP Task Force, when you're briefing Congress on a regular basis, you're able to show them behind closed doors a lot more information than you're able to tell the American public about classified systems and sensors that you don't want our enemies to know about.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:29George Knapp?

  You're not telling them, hey, this Tic Tac is something real, when you know it's not. I mean, when you say this is unidentified, it's an unknown, you're pretty confident that really is an unknown.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I wouldn't be there briefing it if I wasn't confident of that. And later, I was absolutely confident that it was not something of ours. So, and as we built the reputation of the task force and built the business out, and I had enough support, both at the senior levels, all the way down to the lieutenant on the flight line, that became very important because the trust was there that when I'm there telling you about something, it's absolutely an unknown, it's absolutely something that we need to understand better, either from an aviation safety standpoint or a security standpoint.

• 34:16George Knapp?

  ATIP was real. I mean, you know, it's whatever you want to call it, program, whatever.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:22George Knapp?

  Whether it had a budget or not, or had its own office, it was real. It was a real effort.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Absolutely was, because again, we didn't want anything to fall through. I didn't want to have to rebuild what OSAP had started to build and what, you know, all of our colleagues had started to build, and let it just die and start from scratch again. Because there was reporting, and if there's reporting, somebody needs to be addressing that reporting.

• 34:43George Knapp?

  You had a database from OSAP. I mean, you know, in addition to those 38 papers of public assailing, there's a lot that was produced, including this gigantic data warehouse. Did you use that?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:53George Knapp?

  Did we use it?

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Yes. Having, only because, now, I'll caveat that with, I wouldn't have known it existed if I hadn't been involved. And since I wasn't, you know, enough that I knew Jacques Vallée and that he had built this thing, that I obtained a copy so that later, again, fast forward to the task force, you know, we could use that as a basis to start, you know? And it comes down to the question of, has this ever been seen before?

• 35:20George Knapp?

  Right.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Let me find out, right?

• 35:23Speaker 05

  The slides, they're known to be part of a briefing, and that that briefing, that your department and you, I mean, that's you guys, you put that together.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:33Speaker 05

  You're the guys.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  Or the people.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Okay. Just want to confirm a couple of things.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  If it's okay. Have you determined the controllers of the 2019 swarms on more, about 10 of our Navy warships?

• 35:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 05

  Over a series of days? Have you, have you yes or no determined the controllers?

• 35:56Speaker 03

  Can't say. I just can't say, because we don't want to, it's part of the assessment that is protected.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  So if the answer was no, could you still not say?

• 36:08Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say.

• 36:09Speaker 05

  You wouldn't say?

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because I believe that to be protected. So part of the problem, there's some-

• 36:15Speaker 05

  The Navy said that they didn't know. It went on record, head of the Navy.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Then quote him.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because he's the ultimate classification authority for that.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  Am I making a mistake by saying, by pursuing that and saying that our government right now is saying that they don't know? Am I making a mistake?

• 36:33Speaker 03

  I don't think you're making a mistake pursuing that, no.

• 36:35Speaker 05

  Say it again.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  I don't think you're making a mistake pursuing that.

• 36:37Speaker 05

  Can you say if those objects, 2019, can you say if you know if they were Russia, China, or any foreign nation other than ours? Can you say that?

• 36:46Speaker 03

  They're unidentified.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  The green footage from the USS Russell, you know that George and I obtained and released, so you know somebody's filmed a screen and shouldn't have done that, but that's not me, it's journalists, there's shield law, obtained and released, but you've seen it, they played it in Congress.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 37:05Speaker 05

  Okay. The question about that is-

• 37:11Speaker 05

  Was that, to the best of your knowledge, is that a camera artifact of the iris? The, the, the shape that you see in the green footage, we call it green? Is that an artifact of the iris?

• 37:22Speaker 03

  To, to my knowledge, based on three PhDs, uh, it is, the shape in that video is the shape that you're seeing and that it is a pyramid and that it is self-illuminating.

• 37:35Speaker 05

  It's a what?

• 37:36Speaker 03

  It's, that illumination is coming from the object itself. That's my understanding, based on, you know, what I had from the task force.

• 37:44Speaker 05

  You got three PhDs, you got three PhD people to look at it?

• 37:47Speaker 03

  I got three PhD people to look at it, you know?

• 37:49Speaker 05

  Were they like optical physicists?

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Yes, because there might be an easy explanation and, and get it to the right people. And when it came down to sensor performance, right? And somebody saying, oh, the, you know, the gimbal on the flare changes in this regime of flight. Cool, but the guys that made it told me a different answer, right? So I, I'd always try to go to the best expert I could get on anything to give me their answer, because then it's not Jay answering it, it's that person answering that question.

• 38:17Jeremy Corbell?

  I think that original interview, first time he went on camera, that is so cool now, because we get to see it so many years later. Nobody knew that he was going to be able to come out in, in this form with a book and be in, in the movie that he did, Age of Disclosure. So I think it's really cool. It was a good day to have someone like Jay fighting on the inside for transparency on this stuff. And now that he's out, I think, to some degree, mostly out, um, you know, it, it is cool to see him throwing punches to fight for transparency on this issue responsibly, um, you know, from the outside. I think he's a real asset to the idea of transparency and truth. And we certainly experienced that when we were doing our reporting.

• 39:00Jeremy Corbell?

  I mean, I, I bet he didn't like it so much that things got leaked to us, um, from reports that he had done. But he made sure that the PR people at the time, I think it was Susan Go that was at the time, reported accurately that what we obtained and released to the public was indeed military film footage of UAP. And I attribute that to, to Jay, because you and I have heard that he's the one that made sure the Pentagon was, was honest with the American public. So I think he's been a real asset to it. And, um, I'm excited to kind of dissect his book more, but I want to ask you something. Um, in his book, one part that I did read, he talks a lot about, um, Jim Ryder, former Lockheed Vice President. And he talks about a conversation he had with Jim Ryder, where Jim acknowledged to

• 39:45Jeremy Corbell?

  him that, you know, about the Roswell crash, that it had broken into two pieces, that there were bodies recovered, non-human intelligence bodies. Uh, and I just, and, and also, I think in that section, uh, there was something about how the CIA officially blocked access of, of that information to OSAP. And that's a, a real famous story now, because you brought that forward about Jim Ryder with Harry Reid. You brought that forward about how Jim Ryder was trying to help the transfer of this technology. One more thing, he mentions that there were 12 craft, which we've heard Eric Davis say. Um, we've also heard, uh, how Putoff say that on Joe Rogan. I don't know if Lockheed owned all of those craft or had custody of all his craft, but

• 40:30Jeremy Corbell?

  clearly that comes from Jim Ryder. So can you tell our audience a little bit about Jim Ryder, that transfer? Do, is he trustworthy? Is that what you've heard from the inside all these decades, that Jim Ryder was really trying to get this out? And then you famously said, a name, under oath, in Congress, of the CIA individual, Glenn Gaffney, who blocked the transfer of the non-human technology. Can you tell our audience a little bit about Jim Ryder and, uh, the blocking of the CIA?

• 40:59George Knapp?

  So Jim Ryder was a Vice President at Lockheed, had the trust of the, the top guys, was close with Ben Rich. You know, there's always been, uh, suspicion that Skunk Works may have gotten some of the ideas for the, their amazing craft that they've built over the years, including the, uh, of the F-117, got some ideas from technology that had been recovered. I did get a chance to meet Ben Rich and do an interview on the day they made the stealth fighter public out at Nellis Air Force Base. I asked him that question, he kind of smiled and said, no, it's just good old American know-how. Uh, but that suspicion is well-founded. I mean, those guys have had a presence at Area 51 since the day the place opened. And, uh, so if anyone was going to have that stuff, it would be them.

• 41:43George Knapp?

  Uh, you know, I, we've heard differing stories about how they've handled the technology and their inability to reverse engineer the propulsion, understandable. But if any company in the country were going to have that stuff, crash materials, crashes from UFOs, it would be Lockheed. I, I think that it's been spread out to other aerospace manufacturers and defense contractors. I think Jay in, in those books says TRW was involved and have heard that name before. Anyway, I started hearing that story about Jim Ryder, uh, being at Lockheed and being in negotiations with Mr. Bigelow about getting some of the goodies and transferring it. I, my understanding was, and I could never report it, obviously, but my understanding was there were leftovers.

• 42:27George Knapp?

  It wasn't an entire craft, but there were leftovers, scraps and things, that Ryder and Lockheed were willing to trade to Bigelow and BASS, the OSAP program, in exchange for something else that Mr. Bigelow offered them, something they could not get on their own. And they progressed to the point, I know there were meetings in Southern California. I know that Ryder came to Las Vegas and, and was, I know which room he was in, talking to him about this. The deal was basically done. Uh, and then Lockheed let CIA know that they were going to do this, and this guy, Gaffney, the name that I revealed to Congress, stepped in and put the gavage on it. First, he was really pissed off that Lockheed still had this stuff, because they were supposed to turn it all over.

• 43:12George Knapp?

  Where it went from there, I don't know. I can tell you the building that was in at the time that Bigelow was talking, uh, to, uh, Lockheed about it.

• 43:20Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay.

• 43:21George Knapp?

  And so I, I'd heard this story, and that's driving me crazy. Oh my gosh, that's a huge story. I can't say anything about it for years. Um, I did go by and get some video of the building, the office complex where the material was.

• 43:33Jeremy Corbell?

  Which building, which building was it in?

• 43:35George Knapp?

  It's on Rye Road, there in Southern California, out, outside of Palmdale. And, um, and it's not a Lockheed facility anymore, at least it doesn't look like it. It's offices, complex and warehouses and things, but, uh, that's where it was. And so the deal was done. Bigelow agreed to provide a service to Lockheed. Lockheed was going to turn over this stuff that OSAP could study. Bigelow had spent a million dollars bringing his aerospace plant up to par, so it met national security standards of the DIA. And the DIA stepped in and killed it. And where the stuff went from there, I don't know, but Lockheed no longer has it. And then Jim Ryder, everyone described him as a great guy. Jay, you know, in my skimming of the book, he had a lot of communications with Jim Ryder.

• 44:20George Knapp?

  Ryder went on to have some really eclectic interests, uh, esoteric type stuff. He's given some presentations that have appeared online. That was an interesting guy, but he passed away. And, um, it's too bad, because he'd be really a great guy to have an interview with. And now that Jay has formally gone out and said this, I am relieved to see somebody else say it in public, uh, because I did testify to that in, in Congress, and I did it with permission, uh, you know, you can guess who, who okayed that. Because I, I lobbied hard to get that on the record. And, um, and I'm glad it's finally there, and I'm glad that Jay has buttressed that information, because I was kind of out on a limb there.

• 45:00Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, so Jay's book is titled Out of the Shadows, which is, which is a great title. And yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people are calling me, asking me, what, you know, should they take this seriously? Kind of like the Grush interview with, with Rogan. And, you know, all I can say is that Jay was always in position, he's always been honest. From everything we know, he's fought for the American people to have the basic understanding. He's identified the gatekeepers. That's something Representative Burleson said to me in private. Um, it's not secret or anything, but he said that, you know, Jay was really aware of and helpful with identifying the gatekeepers. And we can kind of reverse engineer that to, you know, to be about, well, who at CIA, Glenn Gaffney, blocked the transfer?

• 45:44Jeremy Corbell?

  So it makes you wonder, with Jay coming out now, his book, Out of the Shadows, is Congress going to subpoena any of these contractors? You know, they've clearly said now, there's 12 craft, and I think...

• 46:00Jeremy Corbell?

  It gives Congress kind of a hit list of who they can talk to. And I'm sure Jay has been advising with Pursue and all those people. I think Bret Baer even said that in the intro and Jay didn't deny it. So if Jay has been involved, he can really lead people to, you know, he can lead Congress on who they need to speak with, who's holding back information on this. So I'm hopeful, you know, about that.

• 46:24George Knapp?

  I think he's, you're right. I think he's already told them who's got it, the goods and who could testify. Will Congress follow through? Right now, every single member of the House is running for their lives. There's an election coming up in three weeks. They're all out there campaigning. They're worrying about hanging on to their jobs, not about UFOs. Which party will control the House when we come back and the Senate as well? That could change the focus. You know, we, we know that some of the, the most forceful transparency advocates in the House, these Republicans may be in the minority next time. But, you know, as we've said before, this is a bipartisan issue. The interest level among the House members that we talked to, the Democrats, is just as passionate as the, as the three principal people we've been in contact with.

• 47:09George Knapp?

  So I, I think Jay would help them find it. I don't know that somebody from Lockheed or Northrop or McDonnell Douglas would actually show up. They'd have to be subpoenaed, I would think. It would have to be done closed doors because this is classified stuff. And, um, and I'm not sure that everyone in Congress has a need to know. So it's not real clear to me how far those companies might go in spilling the beans. And, and look, I, you know, we've talked about it before. Bigelow has advocated for sort of a blanket amnesty for all those companies. Let's not hold them criminally accountable for hiding this and lying about it. I'm, I'm okay with that.

• 47:52George Knapp?

  So long as it doesn't involve murdering someone or, you know, we, we don't have any evidence of anything like that. But I, I'm in favor of giving them a break, cutting them some slack if they come clean because they did what we asked them to do. That's what our government asked them to do. Here's this stuff. We don't know where it's from or, or how it works. Why don't you take it and study it and to see if you can figure out how to, how to replicate the technology? That's what we ask them to do. So I, I, I'm okay with giving them a break if they are willing to come forward and, and tell us what they know. Even it's just to some members of Congress behind closed doors because eventually what they tell Congress will get out, you know? And, and so, yeah, this, this book is jam packed. That's an important book, a lot of great stuff.

• 48:36George Knapp?

  And this is a guy who was there. He was in the room for this stuff, for those three programs and a whole lot more. And every interaction we've had with Jay, he's been upfront and, and straightforward. And if he can't tell us something, he says that. But I've never caught him in a lie. I, I can't imagine he would. He says, look, I've never been a UFO guy. I did this because it's my job.

• 48:59Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, look, I, I, I think, um, we, we have these three big personalities that have come out over the years and really helped push, you know, UAP into the mainstream public. You've done the first interviews with most of them. So you've got Lula Zondo's come forward. You've got Jay Stratton, you've got David Grush. We have a pantheon of whistleblowers, some more credible, some less credible. The ones that we, you know, have brought their for, their stories and accounts forward. I, I find very compelling. Nothing has ever shown me that they're not. They've testified for Congress. They've, they've done that on their own volition. I know that people are talking with the FBI in the coming weeks to help, you know, get more and more information into this pursue system so that we can bring more transparency.

• 49:42Jeremy Corbell?

  The, the big issue that I find, and I've, I've said it a bunch and I'll say it again, which is that we've got to get beyond where we are now and get into the crash retrievals and what we've obtained. We've had officials come forward like Dr. Lakatsky talking about breaching the hull of a non-human intelligence craft. It's like, at this point, you've had so many people come forward. They've got to get into those crash retrievals that people need to fess up through amnesty or whatever. And then the biologics, because I don't know what to believe with the biologics anymore. You know, you've had David Gresh going Rogan and talk about reptilian, you know, gorilla style, huge dudes. That, that's a story that he heard, but he also said that he saw footage of bodies,

• 50:24Jeremy Corbell?

  like Greek looking sculpturist, he said, beautiful, like alien bodies. That's, that's not something that can just come out into the public sphere and our government doesn't have to be accountable for that. I'd love to see the footage from Holloman Air Force Base. Very famously, there was footage of a landing, a controlled landing with non-human beings coming out of a craft. If that is true, then that is the kind of thing the public is going to be demanding now. Can you imagine that though? Can you imagine our government being like, okay, we've hid this, but here you go. Here's footage, Holloman Air Force Base of craft landing and alien beings coming out to talk with military and intelligence personnel. Can you imagine the day, George, if that were to happen?

• 51:08George Knapp?

  I, I have imagined it many times, you know? And, um, it's hard to see it happening in my lifetime, but man, yeah, I've, I've imagined it and hoped for it at some point. And, uh, you know, it reminds me of the end of, of Steven Spielberg's movie Disclosure Day. I know a lot of people have trashed that movie, but I felt that moment at the end of the movie when some of those clips of different Nixon with Jackie Gleason going to see a body and, you know, and a crash site retrievals where there are beings that survived the crash and are alive and then are taken away and stashed somewhere. And it moved me, you know, because I have thought about it. You know, I, I did see a couple of, of shots at Jay, um, somebody, Abby Loeb.

• 51:50George Knapp?

  Abby Loeb, who's the head of this, uh, this council that was created by the White House. I think Gary Nolan is one of the members, very prestigious group of folks who've been given the authority to go ahead and, and dig into this. What they don't have are, are top secret security clearances to, to go into stuff. So Abby Loeb put something on, on, uh, social media that he was kind of ticked off at Jay. How dare he go and do an interview with Fox and CNN before he comes and tells us what he knows? Well, a lot of what Jay knows, I mean, he's printed it here. It had to go through Dopser, but a lot of what he knows, he can't say to them or, or pretty much anyone else unless they've got the clearances to hear it. And also the, um, you know, the, uh, need to know, you know, he can't.

• 52:33George Knapp?

  So I, I think for him to go out and try to sell his book, that's not a dishonorable thing. The idea that he owes them, uh, the first shot at what his information is, is ridiculous. I'm glad that those people, that quality and, and their education levels, their esteem, are digging into this and taking a look at it. But there's only so far they're empowered to go. And they work for ODNI, which, you know, you and I have had a mixed bag of experiences with ODNI, right?

• 53:03Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, and that's the thing. Like I speak with a number of the people on the scientific panel and they're oftentimes complaining to me about how their hands are bound and they don't have access to good information. And, you know, I, and my response is, well, you report to ODNI. They're going to hand feed you certain things so that you end up, you know, kind of being their mouthpiece. And they're all kind of aware of it. They're trying to change things from the inside, but again, they've got really bright minds involved. And I, I do hope that they, they get some success with that. But I know that the deck is stacked against them and definitely Jay Stratton briefing them is not his top priority. That's like circular briefing, like he's already in there, you know, doing much bigger reporting.

• 53:44Jeremy Corbell?

  Uh, I, I wish they empowered the scientific coalition or that committee, um, with better information. And they all know they're not getting it. So I, I, I think it's a setup from the beginning. Some of them agree with me, even the ones that work on it. But again, we have good people in there and I hope that they can, like Gary Nolan. And I hope that they can push from the inside. There's so much footage that never gets out to the public. You know, we are so lucky when we obtain certain things and kind of force the release of them. But again, I think we're in a different orbit now. I think we're in a place where, um, these bigger claims, both by Jay Stratton, by, by David Grush, by Eric Davis, by Hal Puthoff, those things need to be addressed. Crash retrievals and biologics, fingers crossed, man, we've got to keep fighting for it.

• 54:30George Knapp?

  Yeah, you know, I, I did not see yet the full Dave Grush on Rogan show. Have heard plenty about it. Have heard speculation that maybe Dave was trying to undercut the book by coming out when saying some, hugely important stuff that, that dwarfs the release of Jay's book. He did it on purpose. That's not my understanding of how the Rogan show works. You don't just get to pick that date. Hey, I'd like to go on two days before Jay's book comes out. Sure, come on, Dave. I, I don't think that that was the purpose. People should remember, Dave Grush was given that assignment by Jay Stratton. Jay Stratton was head of the UAP task force. He finds Grush, who has a, a brilliant mind and he has the clearances to go after it. And he said, go get it. And he got it. He found it. So.

• 55:15Jeremy Corbell?

  No, that's just drama, people creating drama. David Grush is telling you how he understands it. Look, his big revelation was that he saw video footage of a crash retrieval in a Skiff official capacity with bodies on the floor. I mean, that's pretty wild, but it's not something he went out to do to undercut Jay's book. It's all cumulative knowledge. And just like anybody that makes a claim, you have to look at it and try to verify it. It doesn't matter what position they're in. But I, I'm, I'm glad we have these people coming forward. I never thought we'd see this day, but we're seeing it now where people are coming forward and we have stuff to verify. We have stuff we can go after and try to verify. And apparently it's video footage of alien bodies.

• 55:55George Knapp?

  Well, Out of the Shadows is out. It, it went to number three on the New York Times bestseller list almost immediately. If you're into this topic, you got to check it out. And I would say, I'm putting a plug in for Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Read it again and know that the guy Axelrod, who's identified in this book, is now known to be Jay Stratton, as many of our friends had guessed, uh, but which had never been confirmed until now. So anyway.

• 56:18Jeremy Corbell?

  The book might not have sold well. Lakatsky's, you know, third book where he describes a, a lot of stuff in, in technical detail might not have been a big seller. But I bet you, George, when the OSAT files, whatever the DI actually has, which I'm on the hunt to find out what it is they say they found. But if that comes out, people are going to use that book as a reference to understand a lot of the documents. So I think it'll have like a second life of importance in the world. Lakatsky has done more for UFO transparency than I even understood at the beginning. And I think that will become obvious as time rolls on. So all right, I'm encouraged again, George, thanks for that.

• 56:54George Knapp?

  I'm trying to be pessimistic, but it's hard. It's hard. I'll talk to you.