Sofia Franklyn: The Call Her Daddy Fallout That Cost Me Everything “the whole world turned against me”

What really happened between Sofia Franklyn and Alex Cooper? The Call Her Daddy fallout became one of the biggest podcast scandals on the internet, but years later, Sofia is sharing her side of the story. From the friendship that turned into a podcast empire to the betrayal that changed everything, she opens up about what went on behind the scenes and the impact it had on her life. Beyond the headlines, Sofia reflects on her childhood, complicated family relationships and the experiences that shaped the person she became. She speaks candidly about addiction, self-destructive behaviour, navigating public scrutiny and what it was like to have millions of people form an opinion about her without knowing the full story. Sofia also discusses her memoir, Daddy Issues, and the deeply personal experiences that inspired it. She opens up about love, marriage, therapy and learning to make peace with her past. There's far more to Sofia's story than the Call Her Daddy fallout. This is the side of her life the headlines never told Sofia Franklyn, We Need To Talk Content warning: This episode includes discussion of suicidal ideation, sexual assault, substance abuse and eating disorders. Please watch with care. We’ve included links to support resources below. Women’s Aid: https://linkly.link/2xInX Refuge: https://linkly.link/2xIqZ MIND: https://linkly.link/2dx8b (00:00) Intro (02:02) Sofia's Parents (06:20) Growing Up in Utah (14:40) Paul Shows Sofia a Childhood Photo With Her Mum (21:25) Sofia's Rebellious Teenage Years (34:41) Growing Up in Utah: The Good Times (36:17) Sofia's Iconic Mugshot (44:05) Sofia's College Years (48:02) Sofia's Career at Morgan Stanley (53:15) Organised Ad (54:37) Cometeer Ad (55:42) Moving to New York (59:58) Sofia's Experience of Workplace Harassment at Morgan Stanley (01:09:54) How Sofia Met Alex Cooper and Started Call Her Daddy (01:26:23) Call Her Daddy's Deal With Barstool Sports (01:33:50) Why Sofia and Alex Cooper Split Up (01:45:26) Life After Being Dropped From Call Her Daddy (01:57:01) Sofia's Marriage (01:59:37) Most Memorable Conversation (02:04:10) Paul's Key Takeaways Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Brand partnerships enquiries: [email protected] Follow Sofia here: https://www.instagram.com/sofiafranklyn https://www.tiktok.com/@sofiafranklyn Sponsored by: Organised: Use code TALK for 15% off at https://www.organised.co/talk Cometeer: https://cometeer.com/PAUL for $20 off your first order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I find out that she had been making more money than me, lying to me about it for years.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Can I say this girl's name or no?

• 0:09Speaker 00

  We're saying Alex Cooper and we're saying call her daddy and we're saying Sofia Franklin, like what the?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yes, have you talked to her since?

• 0:16Speaker 00

  I always had in my mind, I need to get out of Utah.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  You made it out.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  But my job made my life a living hell. Harassment that knew no bounds. So I would listen to podcasts all day long. And when Alex and I met, it was just chemistry.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Call her daddy is everywhere.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Two million listeners per episode in two months. And I get to leave this job where I'm getting sexually harassed every single day.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  But Barstool's was making a hundred thousand an episode and you're making less than that across the year.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  For the first time in our friendship, we have some friction.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  At what point did you realize you and Alex would no longer be working together? The world turned against you. If you could go back and tell yourself what's about to happen, what would you say?

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Hey there, just a heads up before we begin. This episode includes accounts of suicidal ideation, sexual assault, substance abuse, and eating disorders. We've included links in the episode description to resources. If you or someone you know has been affected, please take care while watching.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Can we start at the beginning?

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Let's start at the beginning.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Now, when I say the beginning, you're probably thinking, what are you thinking?

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Oh, you know.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Because you're like, where do you think the beginning is?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Literally me in the hospital coming out.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Do you remember that, Sofia? You remember coming out?

• 1:54Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  I don't remember.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  So you know what's interesting is I want to go back.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Before.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Before that moment.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  I think that's a great place to start because that is the beginning.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  That is the beginning. That is the beginning. Can we go back to what you know of the coupling of your mother and father?

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Yes. So my book is called Daddy Issues. So there will be some daddy issues that we uncover. This is a really crazy story. My mom was living in San Francisco. She was 20.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  My biological father, I don't really have a relationship with him. He was backpacking through the United States from Spain. They met each other in San Francisco. He was there for a few months and she got pregnant with me.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  And I'm pretty sure they hooked up in like his hostel. So like very.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  And how do you know it was in the hostel that you were conceived?

• 3:13Speaker 00

  My mom told me this.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  She also, she's gonna hate me for saying this, but sorry, Mom. She said that she was gonna try ecstasy for the first time. This is San Francisco, like.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  What year is this?

• 3:28Speaker 00

  1991.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Okay, I get it. I get it. This is not the San Francisco tech.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  That everyone thinks it is.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  And also she's 20.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  You know, so she was gonna try it for the first time and paid whoever to get it. And that day found out she was pregnant with me.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  And so she's never done ecstasy. It was that story.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  You saved her from ecstasy. See? I'm here saving people.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  I saved her from an ecstasy addiction.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  So she can thank me for that.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Look at that. So this is where, this is where it begins. Now, do you believe your parents at any point, your biological parents?

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Do you believe that they were in love at any point?

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  I do. And I've met him twice when I was older. And even seeing them, right? I met him when my mom was there, like there was something even then.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Really?

• 4:39Speaker 00

  I think so. I know my mom was head over heels in love with him. So.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Okay. So if you believe that she was head over heels in love with him, how did they then separate?

• 4:52Speaker 00

  So she found out she was pregnant. I mean, they were really just kind of having a fling, right? And she said that she was gonna keep the baby, right? Me and asked if he wanted to be a part of my life and if he wanted to be there when I was being born. And he said no.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  And so did he then return to Spain?

• 5:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  He went back to Spain. So, and I'm sure that was really difficult for my mom.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Horrible.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  And then she went back. So my mom was born in Argentina and Buenos Aires. And then at 15, moved to Orem, Utah. Okay?

• 5:53Speaker 00

  That was a cultural, just like shock, whiplash. And when she found out she was pregnant with me, she moved back to Utah to my grandma's house. So that my grandma could help.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  For that support.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  So even that connection, I don't think a lot of people realize, coming from Argentina, your mother.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Then moving to Utah.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  And if you can describe for a lot of people who haven't been to Orem, Utah.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, I have.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  There's no way you have. For why?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  See, this is where, this is.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, you're gonna be like, I don't believe this.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  No, I don't believe you right now. Why were you?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  I am going, well, here's, let me, let me tell you.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  But then we'll fully unpack it is my parents lived in Utah.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  This is absolutely insane.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  My brother graduated from a Catholic school in Utah.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Juan Diego or Judge?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Judge.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  I, there's no way.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  I have chills right now.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, we have uncanny similarities to the point where I feel as if I could feel pressure that you faced.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Because what immediately stands out, which I don't think a lot of people see when they just say, read your story.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Is I'm thinking of, here is a little brown girl.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  In Utah.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  That, that is what people need to understand is how white Utah is. It is, it is on a different level. I mean, you know.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Sofia, do you know what we used to do when, when, when I would go visit my? We played count the black people game.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  Which you can do there. That's how white it is.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  We never got to two hands.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  It's insane.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  We never got to two hands. So, so growing up, even before you get to, to high school though, is where was the safe space for you?

• 8:17Speaker 00

  I think my mom wanted me to feel okay without a father. That is partly why I'm so independent, like hyper independent now.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  And then when I was six years old, she met Tom, who I refer to as my father because he adopted me. He took me and he treated me as his daughter and I love him. We have a great relationship. But we left my grandma's house and

• 8:57Speaker 00

  things got chaotic, right?

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Home became a turbulent place.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  But from the very beginning, I found safety in women.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  That's where I would find it.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  That's, that's interesting.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  So that chaos, did you feel it was introduced by, was it Tom then? Or?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  I think not having a father

• 9:27Speaker 00

  and being raised by my mom, my grandma and her sisters, right? That already kind of set the tone for women are here to protect you, keep you safe.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  And when Tom entered the picture, I hated it just because I was protective of my mom. Having a single mom is a very interesting relationship as well.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  But then I would seek safety not at home. I think I, that's when I started dabbling in some things that.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  Were not safe. But in my fucked up way, they felt safe.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  I don't know if that.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Means.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  No, yes, but I mean, and I want to explore all of this. So just to understand, though, um, when your mother meets Tom.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And then you say that the the household became chaotic, there was chaos. It as much as you're comfortable just describing.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  I'm comfortable.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Okay. What was happening there?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  So. Tom is. They're in their twenties.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  At raising me. So they're also not Mormon.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  And the thing about Utah is if you're not Mormon, you kind of become, there's like a counterculture to that. Which is. Since we're not Mormon, we're gonna be, we're bad a little bit. But.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Tom.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Was a great dad in his own way, but he was an addict. And my mom didn't know that at the time.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  And he, I think the, what it was were these, he had an anger problem, right?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Later, I found out fueled by drugs. But it was these like bursts of anger out of nowhere.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Like me on the phone with a friend laughing and him looking at me and saying, why are you laughing? And like ripping the phone out of the wall.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Just, and not all of his little outbursts were that dramatic, but. They came out of nowhere. They were intense. I couldn't place why they were happening and so. I became hyper vigilant. Um.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  And I like wanted to protect my mom, you know?

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  So.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting, though? Cause you were, you were what, six?

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Six and your instinct is protect mom.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Immediately. And kind of that's my anxiety was like wanting to protect her. And it is really interesting. So where did I put my feelings? I don't know. But I shoved them down and put them somewhere and we're going through them in therapy, but. Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so then, did you start therapy at an early age?

• 13:07Speaker 00

  My mom had me in therapy and when I was in diapers.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Really?

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yes. My mom put me in Montessori, she wanted me in therapy, she was very progressive, you know?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Uh, so I've always been in therapy, always as early as I can remember.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Wow, that that's fascinating.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  And and that was even before, I think, therapy, I mean, now therapy is more mainstream.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right, that wasn't, that wasn't a thing.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  No.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  So, so you remember having conversations with your therapist early as a child and?

• 13:46Speaker 00

  I remember there was like this sand. I call it a Zen garden, but now looking back, it was a sandbox.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Okay, I see it.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  I was explaining it to someone and I kept referring to it as a Zen garden. And then I spoke to my mom and she said, that was a sandbox. Um, but there was like, whatever, I was playing with toys and that's. That's my earliest memory of it.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Is playing while there was someone sitting in a chair asking me questions.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  All right, all right. Uh, Sophia, there's several surprises I'll have for you.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  There can't be more because that's like.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  You lived in Oregon, Utah.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we, we, uh, we've just started, but can I show you something? All right, you ready for this?

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  All right, I want you to take a look at this. Tell me if you remember this and what was happening.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh, wow.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  What is, what was happening, what does that mean to you?

• 15:04Speaker 00

  This is me and my mom are so intertwined. My, she is my world and I am hers.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  And it was, I'm so happy here, I'm so happy here, also blonde.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  Very interesting.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Um.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  I think I'm happy here, I'm pretty sure, but this. I don't know when this photo was taken, but it's just like looking at how my mom's holding me. It's a single mom thing.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And this is, this is prior to Tom?

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Cause what stands out to me in this is a happy, innocent.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Little girl.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Who has no idea what life is about to serve up to her.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And so if you could go back.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  And tell her anything about what's about to happen in life, what would you tell her?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Things are.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Going to get.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Scary. And I, and I've actually done this in therapy.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  I want to tell her that.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  She's okay, but I also don't want to tell her that because that's what I did my whole life. You're okay, you're fine, you're okay. My mom, you don't have a dad, you're fine, you're okay. And I think that that created actually this disconnect. It's okay to, for things not to be okay.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  You know?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  So there's like, I'm suppressing, I'm numbing, I'm like disassociating. But what I would tell her is it's okay to feel scared.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  And.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  I'm sorry that you didn't have, you know? Maybe someone to protect you from all that.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Fair. I'll hold on to that one.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And, uh.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I can feel the emotion.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  From, from that in particular.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  And so I want to move to then. All the things that this, you, you say that this little girl should have been protected from.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  So already you, you described that the household becomes chaotic.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Said that Tom was an addict.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Your mother was not aware.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  But were you aware?

• 18:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  You didn't know?

• 18:08Speaker 00

  I didn't know when I was six, right? But when I was old enough, they sat me down and said that Tom is going somewhere because he's sick.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  And I thought he had cancer, I was terrified. And they explained to me what addiction was.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  And then I was able to kind of connect it to the anger. And I was so sad for him to leave and then so relieved when he wasn't home.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Wow, good.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  So, yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that, that shows you how you're holding these two emotions that some people say are opposing.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  But that's what makes us human.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  We can hold multiple emotions.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  So he leaves, now, how did Tom's, Tom in the house?

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And then his departure, how did that impact the relationship you had with your mother?

• 19:19Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't know if it was Tom's. Departure per se, but the house felt peaceful and less scary and like I didn't need to be. You know, super. You know, watching out for signs and, and that. That takes a toll is when you're having a family moment and it's calm. And you're having dinner. The whole time having some anxiety that something's about to go wrong.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  So some of that went away, but I was also, I don't know how our relationship changed. I think I started to be a kind of a, a bad kid.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  I think.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Okay, I mean, you, you had a lively. Childhood.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  I know I was a bad kid, I just don't know when it started.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Do you, so, so, but, but really, cause you know what, I thought you were going to say this.

• 20:27Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  And truly, when you look back, do you think that you were a bad child? Or was it your reaction to bad things happening?

• 20:38Speaker 00

  I think I was a bad child, which is something I should work on.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  What made you a bad child?

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Just behaving inappropriately. But also why, how could I not?

• 20:57Speaker 00

  So it's a good question.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  So when you say behaving inappropriately.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  What are some early examples of behaving inappropriately?

• 21:12Speaker 00

  Going to Smith's across the street and stealing a bunch of stuff.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Okay. Smith's, wow, I remember Smith's.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're the only person.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  It's like, there's only ten of us who know who Smith was.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Legitimately.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yep, so what, do you remember the moment you first stole something?

• 21:38Speaker 00

  The first time, the my earliest memories of behaving poorly are in high school.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Um, then it was I was off to the races. Well, actually, that's a lie. Middle school, I started to do some questionable things, like I decided it would be cool to be bulimic for a few months. Um, my mom caught me.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so so really, you thought, let's

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that that was also a fascination with Tumblr and like the super skinny girls. I mean, women grow up with like skinny, skinny, skinny, but

• 22:30Speaker 00

  that was a way for me to feel in control.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Of a life that wasn't.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  That was so out of control is what it actually was.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  And so and you were actively binging?

• 22:42Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  And then I would go. And

• 22:49Speaker 00

  that was really insane that I was doing that. I didn't do it for that long because my mom caught on to it.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  And seeing how scared she was was enough to scare me. So I never did it again. Um, but it was really high school and everything like ramped up.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Can we go there?

• 23:18Speaker 00

  We can go there. I start drinking.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  I drink heavily. I start smoking OxyContin, like anything I can get my hands on, I'm doing it and I have this like animal inside me that just wants to get fucked up.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  So nothing was off limits. Push the limits as much as I possibly can. Has kind of been my MO for a lot of my life. Which is partly why I'm successful. But also has been very unhealthy for me too.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Now, why do you think, what was it about that time in your life? Or was it the the school, was it the environment? Where you just took it to the next level?

• 24:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  You gave birth to the monster, basically.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  At that time.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it's like, yeah, you hear kids are, you know, drinking and doing a keg stand in high school, but you know, I'm smoking OxyContin off tinfoil, like that's not, that's not the regular just partying.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Um,

• 24:47Speaker 01

  And you know, too, even on that is because there will be people watching that say, wow, I don't even know what oxy is.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  And I like smoking off tinfoil, they're like, uh, what is it? So how how how would you?

• 25:01Speaker 00

  I'm talking about it so casually too, as if like, oh, yeah, everyone is smoking

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Look, oxy.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Off tinfoil.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Although I do feel like there there was there's disproportionate use of oxy.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  In Utah.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  In Utah, yes.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  That's the other thing about Utah is there's, yep. And a meth, a whole meth.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Thing. Um, OxyContin is a painkiller. Uh, very intense one, right? This is like if you're out of surgery.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  And I just remember we would peel off the coating on the pill in order to smoke it, or else you'd got really sick. Um, but what, why was I doing that?

• 25:54Speaker 00

  I wanted

• 25:59Speaker 00

  in a weird way, it was my way of being in control. I know that is crazy thing to say. But and I think maybe it was me kind of lashing out. Like double middle finger in the air to you know, my upbringing, my parents.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Did you, you said your mother felt like an outsider when she was growing up. Did you feel like an outsider?

• 26:28Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  That, you know, how could I not? That was just if your entire family is feeling like that, you kind, you're part of it too. Did I feel as much of an outsider as she experienced? No, but it was still very much there.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Did, did, did participating in drugs and alcohol in that scene, did that make you feel more accepted by everyone as well?

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Maybe. Yeah, probably.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  That was like one way to to be part of feel like you're not on the outside looking in. But

• 27:21Speaker 00

  I think the the main motivator was self destruction and really wanting to push boundaries. Why? I don't know.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Did, did, did that monster show up with your relationship? At that time, your romantic relationships?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  A hun, I mean, my relationships, my romantic relationships have been

• 27:54Speaker 00

  really unconscionable because of me.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Up until now with my husband, but every relationship before that. I was not a good partner. In fact, I was terrible.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Even at the beginning?

• 28:16Speaker 00

  I think, I mean, hmm, in high school

• 28:23Speaker 00

  in the beginning, it was like I like this guy, but I need to turn the relationship into like a

• 28:34Speaker 00

  power thing. Um, and I'm not articulating that well, but romantic, I don't, I didn't know how to be around men. I just didn't know. I didn't have a dad. The dad that I did have is was not the best example and I learned that men weren't safe.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  So I treated it as such.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. You, at the top, you mentioned, but this is, this probably happened even right before high school is you did then meet your biological father.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  And and so, uh, how did that go? Because you, did you request that?

• 29:22Speaker 00

  So my mom

• 29:27Speaker 00

  spoke with my therapist and they sat me down and she maybe it was because of all the shit happening with Tom. Maybe it's because her guilt around holy shit, I, your father's not here and the one that I married is not, you know?

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  So she gave me the option to meet my biological dad.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  And I remember thinking why, like, you taught me that it doesn't matter that he's not in the pictures, so why would I even need to? So there were some confusing feelings around that, but I decided to meet him.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  And

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And so, Fay, even on that, can I ask, what was your expectation in that meeting?

• 30:26Speaker 00

  I think I thought it was gonna be this like

• 30:32Speaker 00

  we're gonna see each other and I'm gonna be like, this is my dad, you know? And it's gonna be, we're just gonna connect and it's my dad, you know?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  It did not, it was not like that when I met him.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  He didn't do anything wrong per se, but

• 31:02Speaker 00

  not having him in my life, him choosing not to be in my life, and then meeting him once in middle school, once in high school, and still not wanting to be a part of my life

• 31:19Speaker 00

  caused some damage that I was not aware of at the time.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Now, when you reflect, what was that damage?

• 31:32Speaker 00

  It's one thing for your father to not wanna be there in the very beginning, and I feel like, am I just, do I just sound so grim?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  I'm like, do I need to throw in some like happy shit?

• 31:48Speaker 01

  No, you, you, you know why? Because

• 31:52Speaker 01

  you are painting, unfortunately, you are painting the picture of the lives of so many of us.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  You know, that was typically covered up.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  And the, you know, when you walked out of the house, you would just smile. Parents would just smile. But what was happening inside was traumatic, it was turmoil.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Uh, and so I believe this story, many people are feeling seen and heard.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Okay, good, good.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  That's what I want. That is what I want. If there's one thing that my memoir does, it's, I want people to feel less alone. Um, having my dad not wanna be there in the beginning and then in my

• 32:47Speaker 00

  in the most formidable years where I'm like, really figuring out my worth, my identity, who I am.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Not needing me, not wanting to be a part of my life. Claim me, love me, be my dad.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  I now think I was a very

• 33:19Speaker 00

  I didn't, I fucking hated men, hated.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  And I'm sure my sense of self-worth probably that took a toll on that.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  There's, there's like, there's so many

• 33:45Speaker 00

  angle, like, there's so much to unpack, right? Because it's like you said, two things can be true.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Because my mom also raised me to be very confident and very independent and high self-esteem and all those things, so there was that. But there was the conflicting thing of not feeling worthy.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  So, I think both things can be true.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Hey there, I just wanna say, thank you for choosing We Need to Talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life. And I want to continue to share it with you, so hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  You, you know, even on this note of, um, you know, it wasn't all traumatic, right? When you think about the moments that you most enjoyed, that you reminisce on, you know? Uh, in good old Utah.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  What were those?

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Going to

• 35:01Speaker 01

  I was funny, what's that list, Sophia?

• 35:03Speaker 00

  I wanna know what yours is or your brother's.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  I have, I had, I do have one, at least one.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  I, should I go first or you?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Please.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, taking Molly, uh, Raven, watching Skrillex.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that's, that's the high.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  That, that, I mean, that was, that was, that's the high for real.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Literal, high, yes.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Um, in Utah?

• 35:36Speaker 00

  I have, I don't know, I would have, going to the movies.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Because that meant no fighting, cuz you couldn't talk.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fair. That was it?

• 35:49Speaker 00

  I'm sure there are some other ones, but how, I, I need to know yours.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've got one, and let's see if, if you did this, is, uh, Park City.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Learning to snowboard and ski.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  I had that experience, how can you not?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  If you live in Utah.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Uh, well, on the note of fun things, can I show you something?

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  All right, you ready for this?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  All right, here we go, all right.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Are you gonna pull out Molly?

• 36:24Speaker 00

  Where'd you get all the

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, this, see, it's a fun journey, it's a fun journey.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  It's a journey.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  All right, so you ready?

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  To me, this is iconic.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Honestly? It, it, we're, everyone's gonna see this photograph, correct?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Yes, it's, it's going to be right here.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  They need to see this.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, this is, so right now, it's right here, you see it? Sophia, it's right there, it's right, it's right there.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  I am in an orange jumpsuit. I, this is a mugshot. One of several.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  This particular time, look at my blonde hair extensions, I can't.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  But I, but I, I see the fashion in the mugshot though, really?

• 37:12Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm giving, I'm like smizing, you know, like

• 37:16Speaker 01

  It's a pretty good looking mugshot.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  The eyes are giving.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  I also look, who is this girl?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Tell me, but what, what's happening for everyone? I mean, it's not, cuz this is high school, right?

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  So this is a mugshot in high school, which means you've been arrested.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  In high school or right out of high school?

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  I am not 21.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  I'm wearing Jessica Simpson plastic hair extensions that cost, I probably stole from the mall.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  They did take those out. I am booked in to jail for underage drinking and resisting arrest.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Here, and I can't remember which, I think this was the first arrest, but I'm not sure.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Okay, so you said the first arrest. How many times had you, you know, as a, as a child, I don't think as an adult, so, how many times?

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Not as an adult.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Not as an adult, so how many times were you arrested?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Three times.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Three times, okay, three times, and this is for, for what reasons? And I'll hold on to that one too.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Um, they're all have to do with some kind of public intoxication.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Um, the third time, I actually get booked into the system.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  You know, and I spent a good forty-eight hours in a cell with a cellmate. The jumpsuit, they took out my extensions.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  And the girl that got booked in front of me, they said, is this your hair? And she said, yes, and they said, they're extensions. And she said, it's my hair, I paid for it, which is kind of baller. And I wish I would have said that.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  You could have kept your extensions.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  I know.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Cause I really, yeah, that's exactly what I, I needed to be looking good.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I got in trouble a lot.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  And that was, I got in trouble before for stealing. That's like not even, I didn't get arrested for that, but.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  It, it, it sounds like you, you stole quite a bit.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  From a young age, from a very young age, all the way through to late teens.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  And high school.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  High school, okay, okay.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Juan Diego's, you know, rich kids. And I'm trying to keep up with the Joneses.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  A bit, so there was that.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. Now, I have to ask, your mother must be aware.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  She's aware.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Of, of, of these arrests and, and now she's seen this little girl.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Really go left.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  In a major way.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  Major.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  She has to be incredibly concerned.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  Beyond.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  What's, how does all of this, the arrests, drug use? How does that impact your relationship with your mother?

• 40:41Speaker 00

  It is terrible, you know? I'm like, she is beyond worried. And I have no plans to change my behavior.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  So that was a difficult time for my mom and I, for sure.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  We did not get along.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  And you said you had no plans to change your behavior. What, what, what, what did you, did you think about a career? Did, what do you think about like goals for life when you're, in your teens?

• 41:17Speaker 00

  I didn't really have any or care until my boy, a high school boyfriend said, you're really smart and you should apply yourself and think about college.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Why it took him telling me that to take myself seriously?

• 41:47Speaker 00

  So there, yeah, I was living kind of this life and I was actually excelling in English and literature. But then I almost didn't graduate high school because of the partying. But I knew I wanted to get out.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  So even though I'm saying I had no plans to change the behavior.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  I, the outsider thing, my mom didn't want to be there in Utah. So I always had that in my mind.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Is get out of Utah.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Okay, no matter, no matter what I'm doing, just get out.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  What, what was your, cause you, you made a really good point when you were talking about meeting your biological father and you were beginning to shape your identity, right? So by the time we get to the graduation of high school.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  What is your identity? The story that you tell about yourself that you believe is true, what is that?

• 42:55Speaker 00

  You're really fucking good because I'm like, I think this story is,

• 43:06Speaker 00

  it's, it is two conflicting women. It is, I don't give a shit. I want to be as destructive as possible. And then it's this, I am meant for something more.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  And I have kind of this low self-worth, but then very high, which I said earlier. But it's two different women. One of them doesn't care and one of them cares a lot and wants to make something happen.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so then you, you go on to study economics.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Okay, did you go to the University of Utah too? I'm like, okay.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  And now we're just podcasting?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  No, I'm telling you, you're about to, I think you're going to be even more blown away in a second, but stay with me. So economics, very nerdy.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  I had no business studying economics.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Where, where, why, why economics?

• 44:29Speaker 00

  I wasn't great at economics, right? So I thought it was the way out. Utah, there's no, uh, creative, you're not going to walk down the street and find some, a poet, an artist.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  And so I thought that finance was like the clearest way to, I guess, Wall Street? Maybe that is, I think that's what I was thinking. That's like the surefire way to get somewhere else.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  And was it to get to Wall Street or was it just to get to money?

• 45:20Speaker 00

  It was both, it was get out of Utah and it was money.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Get to money.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Get to money.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  So for me.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  This is another area where our story entirely intersects. In school, I studied finance and economics. And I did it for only one reason, not because I loved finance and economics. But I wanted so badly to get out.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  I wanted to get out from where I was.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  And I just wanted to make money. I thought that was it. Yep, yep, but see, but I, but I relate to that though.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Because it's interesting, I talked to so many people who are telling me at this age, they're like, I was passionate about A or B or C. And therefore I wanted to pursue, but for me, I wasn't passionate, I was, I was passionate about partying.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  I was passionate about partying, yes, I was very good, I was proficient.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Okay, well, you failed to mention that after all.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I was quiet on that part.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  I was real quiet when you were talking about.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  You were real quiet when I was.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  I was, I was passionate about all kinds of things that were destructive.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  But I also knew there was more to this story for me. And I didn't want to end up like a lot of my friends. And I don't know if this was happening with your friends, but I was unfortunately, I saw friends die at very young ages. Just end up on the corner.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Just, you know, hustle dealers, et cetera. And I knew, it was interesting, these were my friends. But I always saw myself as, but that's not my life.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  You know?

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Yes, a hundred percent.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  There's something more.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  There's something more.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  I always had that in the back of my mind. In the most destructive points in my life, that's still there.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  So that is very interesting. I didn't end up graduating. I was like two or three credits short.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  I had a fake diploma.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  I had a fake, they let me walk.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  So they gave me the book.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  But when you open it, there was no diploma inside. So just, can, can you imagine that also?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  It's like a facade, like a fake.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  That's, that's bad.

• 48:07Speaker 00

  So, um, but then I did start really applying myself and that is when I got a job at Morgan Stanley.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. So now, I distinctly remember Morgan Stanley, very, very hard institution to become employed by.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  So you were hired at Morgan Stanley when you were in college or, or right after?

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Right after.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Right after college, okay, all right. So when you get hired there.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Does anything, does lifestyle change or no?

• 48:41Speaker 00

  I feel cool and accomplished telling people I have a job at Morgan Stanley.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  I picked it also for the same reason I picked economics. Get out, make money.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  The lifestyle stayed the same, except this time I had to be at work at seven in the morning.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Wow, okay.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  So it was like, damn, I used to be able to just be wild and free. I'm, I'm still be wild and free, but now I have this kinda downer. I can't spend the hangover like in my room. I gotta go to work.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Gotta go to work, okay.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  All right.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  So.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Family proud of you?

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Yes, but also no.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  I date, I started dating a guy seventeen years older than me, but had the brain of a twenty-five-year-old.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  A very repressed Mormon, lost his virginity in his thirties, then decided to leave the church and live out all the wild stuff. Um, my mom hated that relationship. So proud, but also not so proud.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  How do you then go from Utah to New York?

• 50:28Speaker 00

  So I have a super gnarly fight with my boyfriend.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  And there was some, I talk about this in the book, but he, it's physical.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Wow, okay.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  And he, it scared my mom so much that she said, "I'm gonna give you a twenty thousand dollar loan to go to New York."

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Goodness, okay.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  That's how bad she wanted me to get away from this relationship I was in. And probably just all the shit I'd been up to.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  And so she kind of probably knew it too, right? Like where you live is actually a huge indicator of how successful

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  you will be.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Um, and I, without planning it, but also planning it, Morgan, I've heard there's a few Morgan Stanleys in New York.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  A few.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  So I'm gonna, I'm gonna transfer and they're gonna help me get set up and I get to keep my job.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  So between the fight and New York, two weeks.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  You're there.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  I didn't, I didn't, I was nervous, I was scared, but I didn't give myself time to like really freak out. I just went.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Okay. So even though you left, not in the best circumstance,

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  you've now achieved, I think, a major part of your, your dream. Or the, the, I don't know if it was a dream.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  It was.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  It was a dream, okay.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  It was.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  You're out.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  I'm out.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  You made it out.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Yep. I would sit in my cubicle in Morgan Stanley and over and over again say, "I'm gonna live in New York. I'm gonna have a podcast."

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Oh, really? You were, you're thinking about a podcast in Utah?

• 52:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Because I would listen to podcasts all day long because my job was so boring.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  And you get to New York, the big city.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  The Big Apple.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  That must have been culture shock for you.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  That, it was, uh, yeah, it was crazy. And yes, I, it didn't feel like I had achieved my dream.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  At all.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Hey, Paul.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  What's up?

• 53:20Speaker 03

  What is that?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Oh, this? Cow liver.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Okay, gross.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  See, that reaction right there, we talk about some pretty uncomfortable things on the show, but put an organ on a table and apparently that's where we draw the line.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Okay, but why do we have organ meat here?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  They're actually some of the most nutrient-dense parts of the animal, yet we treat them as the part we never want to eat.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Never really thought about it that way. Do you guys eat it at home?

• 53:47Speaker 01

  We do. I eat them, my boys eat them, my wife eats them, we love them, especially on travel. But I really think about when we're at home and making sure they're getting the nutrients they need because we just don't have a lot of time. But most people aren't suddenly going to start cooking organ meat, which this new brand, Organize, understands. They've started sponsoring our show and we've been trying it out. Add it to smoothies, soups, even your coffee, it is easy.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  So you're saying we don't need to eat this raw liver?

• 54:16Speaker 01

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• 54:34Speaker 04

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• 54:50Speaker 01

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• 54:52Speaker 05

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• 54:53Speaker 01

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• 55:06Speaker 01

  All right, so who wants a coffee? I'll take an iced latte, please. Done. All right, so Briar wants an iced latte. I'm, of course, gonna have an Americana. Our sponsor, Commenteer, is a new way to make ridiculously good coffee at home or here in the studio. The coffee is sourced from the best independent roasters, brewed at ten times the strength, and then flash frozen for peak flavor. Just melt to enjoy hot or cold in seconds, no machine required. For hot coffee, just pop it right out the capsule and then pour six to eight ounces of hot water in. For ice, pour a melted capsule over ice and water or milk. And would you look at that unrivaled flavor in seconds? Well, I better get these to Briar.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Briar, here it is.

• 55:52Speaker 04

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• 55:54Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  This is amazing.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  And you can get twenty dollars off your first order at cometeer.com/paul. Cheers.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  So, so now you had just had a fight with your boyfriend.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Did you then leave that relationship, enter a new one, or maintain that one?

• 56:22Speaker 00

  We were kind of like trying to do a long-distance thing, but the relationship wasn't real.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Like he, he was cheating, I probably was, there was a lot of partying. Um, and I think I just held on to it because as much as New York felt like home and it energized me, it was scary. And I didn't have anyone except my aunt when she was in town.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  So I think I just kind of kept him there as like a little safety net to help me feel better.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Now, I'm with you on how scary New York is.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Uh, and it's incredibly dangerous.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Um, as a city. And there were, there, there are many mentions, um, in your book

• 57:22Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  about dangerous things that happened to you.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  In New York.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  However much you're open to, to sharing here.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I, I think it's important because so many people think, okay, I'm gonna move to the big city.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  But your story is also a warning tale.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Of what can happen.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 57:44Speaker 00

  The behavior didn't change when I went to New York. I would go out, I would get blackout drunk. There, I do write a scene in the book, waking up, not knowing what happened, but a hundred percent, I, there was a date rape. And honestly, I can't say that that was like an isolated one. Like, you don't know what happens when you blackout.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  This one in particular was very, very clear. But I put myself in so many life-threatening situations when I came to New York.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  A lot. Not remembering how I got home. I, leaving the gas on, on the oven

• 58:44Speaker 00

  is, by the way, very dangerous and is like, um, but I survived.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:53Speaker 00

  I survived.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  In those moments where you would kind of wake up from the blackout.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Realize what happened.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  What was, what was going through your, your, your mind and, um, yeah, what, what was, what was going through your mind?

• 59:12Speaker 00

  It was a hundred percent self-blame.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Like, you did that, Sophia. You took it too far, which is how we as a society have functioned for a long time, you know?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Um, so, in those moments, I was very mad at myself.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Wow, so, so you blamed yourself?

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  For being assaulted?

• 59:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes. Why did you drink that much? Why did you, you know, trust a random person? For sure. Um, but I think, you know, it's one of those things in the moment, it's one thing and then in a month or two, you start having like memories or flashes of it and it's like this kind of dark feeling that you're confused by.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Um, but that was, yeah, that was a crazy, crazy time. For sure. And it is so prevalent.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  It is so prevalent.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and not only the, the prevalence of sexual assault, but then also verbal assault that I understand was happening in the, in your workplace, when you were there in New York.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  I, that was, as I'm sure everyone listening can assume, my tolerance for

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  toxic behavior is high, very high.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  And it takes a lot for me to feel, you know, uncomfortable or take something seriously.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  And at Morgan Stanley, I worked for a financial advisor and he made my life a living hell going into work. Harassment that knew no bounds all the time, every day, around the clock. I can't get away from it.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  Putting his home address on my calendar. Sorry, so what, what exactly? Oh, just so you have the address. You know, like, coming over to my desk and playing with my hair, you look sexy today. Doing it in front of other advisors and feeling like so, it was so demeaning and like so,

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  I, I don't know. I, it was just miserable and it was like calling my office phone, calling my cellphone, uh, saying it's part of my job to go meet with him outside of work, waiting for me to get off. Me like trying to figure out ways to leave the office or go to lunch without him knowing where I'm going, like, it was, it wasn't great. At a certain point, he was getting jealous. I work for multiple financial advisors, right?

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  He gets jealous and very angry with me when he finds out that I'm working with other people in the office.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  He goes through my desk, he loses it when he sees that I like went to a Mets game and it wasn't with him.

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  Um, so it, it got to a point where he was making doing my job impossible. And I thought, if I'm gonna get fired anyways, what the fuck is the point? So then I, I go to a manager

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  who tells me, have you tried talking to him about it?

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  So even in, in the research, I think it's a port for people to know how prevalent this is.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Beyond.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and, and why I wanted to specifically talk to you about this because I see here that, um, so, one in three, one in three women in the US experience verbal sexual harassment in the workplace. Where the one in five women in the US have experienced stalking, uh, unfortunately, uh, we know, well, actually, I'll, I'll leave it at that, is, uh, but those are reported numbers.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  Those are reported.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  It is most likely much higher than that. And so here you are, you are being sexually harassed every day.

• 1:04:42Speaker 00

  Every day.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  So, yeah, you, you, you then, so management tells you, talk to him.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  You then decide to do what?

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  I tell him I have a boyfriend. I think it's appropriate that you don't call me on my personal phone, that we keep our, but it, he doesn't stop. There's, it doesn't, you know? Um, so, and, and there it is again, also, like this, how can I fix this situation? Not, how can he, you know? Um,

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  he gets fired for something, but it is so prevalent and that I do end up taking it to HR and they are not helpful

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  at all. It would have been so easy to just give me another FA. So easy, they do that all the time.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  They, they didn't want, they just, they didn't do anything.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, for anyone watching, financial advisor.

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yes, financial advisor.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Industry speak, you got it.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Uh, it is, once again, this is ignorance. It is so shocking to hear the only reason why it stopped was because he was fired.

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  For something else.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  It's.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Not even for, for the sexual harassment.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  No. And it was, it was like,

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  I didn't realize like how much of a toll it was taking, but I started dressing differently. I wouldn't wear like a skirt. I started to not put on makeup. I would never wear a heel, like I would just wear baggy pants and like a business shirt that was loose and then throw my hair up in a ponytail and then he called me and he's like, I love when you wear your hair like that. I start wearing it down, like there's, it's like these little things that I started doing that are actually, like, that's fuck, that's messed up.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Like, how can I not provoke him? And it's like, that's what?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  How do you not provoke him? Like, why, I shouldn't have to think that way.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Right. I just had a curiosity, so for, for any one

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  currently dealing with this exact situation, which we see the numbers, it's a substantial number of people, what do you recommend? And they do.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  The thing is, is I don't know. Because. Maybe things have changed. And maybe.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  They they take this more seriously now. That's very possible. So that would be. My recommendation. But.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  For me, I went to a manager. They didn't do anything. I went to HR. They didn't do anything. What what are you supposed to do?

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  I think where. Men, we need to be much, much better, much more vigilant, is that. I think that. We often, even though we may not be the one. Perpetrating the harassment. We often turn a blind eye. And don't engage when it is happening.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  So in my, I left my investment bank. So I ended up graduate, went.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  To New York?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  To Investment Bank.

• 1:08:42Speaker 00

  Bye.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  And I. Ended up leaving. Because of the environment. But it wasn't the. Sexual harassment that was happening. But when I reflect back, it was happening.

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  It was happening.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  It was on full display.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Your job is probably already like on the line.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Right?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Like you are in a cutthroat environment. Trying to make it.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  You really wanna go and be part of this. Thing, you know?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  Like. So I get it. So I get it.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  But. I, the fact that. You read that statistic, one in three reported.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  One in three reported. Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  It's happening.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's, it's happening.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  It's happening. And and I think.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  A lot.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Things that we can and should be doing is that we need to be more aware of what these. Statistics are. We need to be more aware that it's happening.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Men. Need to call it out.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Uh, we need to create safe spaces. So that. That's in the, in the workplace, but then also outside of the workplace.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Uh, but there, but but we need, there, there's so many things that we need to do.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  And we're, and I think at the end of the day, we're all responsible.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  It's not. Your fight.

• 1:10:10Speaker 00

  Right. Right.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  It's our fight.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  You know, but. E- even wa- walking through this. I begin to understand.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  The context. Of that time for you. Obviously. I wanna get into you creating something that. I believe was one of the first. I think this is important.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  That you get your due on this.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Is that. I think that what you created. Played a part. In.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Forever.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Changing the landscape. Of podcasting.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  And I agree with you.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  And creating. One of the first mainstream media brands coming from a podcast.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  You'll forever hold a place in history.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  And it's crazy.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So so one is thank you for that.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  You're welcome.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  Because you give way for us.

• 1:11:09Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  You know, here, we need to talk and so many others to now. Not look at podcasting as this is a in the basement.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  We're going to do this as a hobby.

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  But no, we can create a media brand.

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  And that's what you did.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  And that's what I did. And it's. Crazy, even now, I see. People. Doing. Our playbook.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  My playbook. You know?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  And it's wild to see that.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  So then what year? Is, are are we talking about here where?

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  This journey begins. And you're still at Morgan Stanley, I think, at this time.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  I.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  Move in. With this girl.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  We hit it off.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  And.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  We, I mean, I'm like, where do I start? Um.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  All right. Well, well, one is just for you to give me. Guidelines on this is.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Can I say this girl's name or no?

• 1:12:21Speaker 00

  A- Alex Cooper?

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  I feel like, what, what are we gonna fi- I, but I'm also like. I got so used to not. Speaking her name.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Like I was media trained at a certain point in time. To not mention her.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  So even now. I'm like, I met this girl. We're saying Alex Cooper, and we're saying call her daddy, and we're saying unwell, and we're saying Sophia Franklin, like, what the fuck?

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yes, no, no, you're, you're, no, you're right.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  No, I'm saying that to myself too, cuz I was about to be like, okay. How do we? No, it's all out there.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's out there, but I think the, the beauty of now is that I feel is if. It's out there, but this is your time. To tell it from your perspective.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  Thank you. That is exactly what it is.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yes. So and and this is what I know, I'm not the only one. There are many.

• 1:13:22Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Who are very curious just about your.

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Perspective. So you tell it.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  I was. Do you remember Via? It was. It was like an Uber. But they were these minivans. So they would pick up like seven or eight people at a time.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Okay. No, I never, never be it.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  And then drop you off.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Like a bus?

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  Like a bus. Mini van bus.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  Um. For a broke girl like me. I could have taken the subway, but I was always running late, so. I meet this girl. Who's also getting sexually harassed at her bank finance job.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:13Speaker 00

  And we exchanged phone numbers and. She asked me if I'm looking for a place. To live. And I said, yes, cuz I couldn't afford my rent, and I let her know.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  And she said, I know this girl that's looking for a third roommate. Should I connect you? And I said, yes. So that is how Alex and I met.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting.

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  So so then you meet and then what, just hit it off and say?

• 1:14:51Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Let's move in.

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  We go. Look. We meet each other for the first time to look at apartments.

• 1:15:01Speaker 00

  We sign a lease that day. And it was just. Chemistry.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  Like, we just had it. Big time.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  So. How did that lead to a podcast?

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  So. We. Both. Were living a life of pretty girl privilege.

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  Running around New York.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  How do we get dinner for free? How do we have fun for free? And. That kinda created this like.

• 1:15:51Speaker 00

  Look hot. Be entertaining. Kind of thing, right?

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  Promoters are like, come to this table.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  But make sure these guys have like a, a good time. That sounds like we were escorts.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  That's all was happening.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  So so you know, um, I have a bunch of friends who have owned clubs, worked in clubs. Uh, I think for people who are not familiar.

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  This is very standard.

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  For. Clubs, even restaurants, etc., to spot very attractive young women.

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Uh, cuz they are ageist as well.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Yes, they are.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  And to ensure that you are in. The vicinity.

• 1:16:32Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Because that will attract. Men who will then pay. And or should I say, will then spend money in the club or in the restaurant?

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  That's exactly how they, that's exactly how it goes down.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  So. We are really. Pretty girls are integral to the, the. Nightlife business.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:57Speaker 00

  I'm saying it laughing, but it's true. Um.

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  But we have. Chemistry. Then. We kinda learn. To play off each other and. Play it up. For dudes. And be.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Entertaining and funny, which. We, at least I already was like that. I was always. Part of being an outsider is like. I would say crazy shit, starting in middle school, just to get like a. Rise out of people. Then. We go to South by Southwest and we're at a bar.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Was this in Texas at the time?

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, Austin.

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Where my brother lives now.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  He didn't wanna stay in Orem?

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  He, no, he decided Utah was too.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  Come on.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  There was too much going on.

• 1:17:58Speaker 00

  There is too much going on.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  There's too much going on. So he went to the slow Austin, Texas, which, yeah.

• 1:18:07Speaker 00

  Utah was a little overwhelming.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  That's really funny. Um. By the end of the night, we have a group.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Like a. Full blown group of people watching us. And we get home. And. Alex is like, she's kind, she's already. Been posting on social media. She had a blog. She was very into.

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  That kinda thing. I'm a girl from Utah. I didn't even know what a vlog was. But. She says, we have something special. Let's start a YouTube channel.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  That doesn't go anywhere.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  So you tried?

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  We tried.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  We took a really hot photo and we put that as our cover art and I think we recorded like one video.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  And I don't remember exactly what happened to it, but.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  Alex loses her job. And. Meets up with. This guy named Mike.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Who used to be Harvey Weinstein's right-hand man.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:19:27Speaker 00

  So excellent, excellent work environment. Let's go round two.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  There are a group of trust fund kids. With their parents' money. That are starting a podcast network.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  And. Alex had never heard a podcast. I was like, baby girl, let me let you know. And she knew I loved podcasts. She had her own media training. I understood podcasting. Just from a consumer.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:20:05Speaker 00

  And. We. He was like, you guys wanna give it a shot? Let's record episode one.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  And. Basically. We put out. Three episodes. And they go crazy.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Wow. So even in this, what, this is why, I didn't know this was the origin story.

• 1:20:33Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  I thought it was different.

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  So, so even in this, did you both? The name?

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Was under the first three, was it Call Her Daddy?

• 1:20:42Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  It was.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  So how was the name?

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  How did we come up?

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Come up with it?

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  The podcast was gonna be. Two girls in their twenties navigating New York, running around. And dating. And sex. And manipulating men. And hating on them. Hi. My bread and butter, like, let's go. I could do this with my.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  You were like, eyes closed. It's like, this is easy. I'm already doing this.

• 1:21:15Speaker 00

  I was born for this. So, we were like. It's, it's. Really a women, like empowerment for women. What is the female equivalent to the word daddy?

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  There isn't one. There is not one. And we like daddy because it has. The sexual component, the power.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:45Speaker 00

  Component, the boss component, like daddy, you know? It means all of these things. There's no female equivalent. What, girl boss? No.

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  And so then we just said, said, okay, Call Her Daddy. That's how we came up with the name.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Okay, brilliant.

• 1:22:08Speaker 00

  And.

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  I thought it was a hobby. I didn't, I'm from Utah. I thought, I didn't know people can actually. Pursue, have created pursuits that are lucrative. I had no idea.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  So. We record. The first episode. And it was really just us picking like. Some of the best stories we have.

• 1:22:43Speaker 00

  And playing them up. And. Giving the people a bit of shock value. A bit.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  A bit, yeah.

• 1:22:53Speaker 00

  A lot.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:56Speaker 00

  And. Right away, it worked. I'm working and working Stanley, by the way.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  And we're talking about blowjobs.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:06Speaker 00

  And I'm going into work.

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  And you know what's funny? I wasn't scared about getting fired. I was scared of. My boss, the one harassing me. Finding it and not provoking him.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Which is so, so fucked up.

• 1:23:29Speaker 00

  Um, and the girl that worked next to me in the cubicle was like, I saw your podcast. I didn't even know you could talk like that, like just horrified. But after three. Two or three episodes, Barstool Sports reaches out.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Because it's so popular.

• 1:23:49Speaker 00

  It just goes crazy.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  And, and so within three episodes.

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  So just a question there, I'm just curious, what do you think it was? That made it resonate with so many people so quickly?

• 1:24:01Speaker 00

  Cause that shit resonated quickly and that's not normally what I would tell anyone who wants to start a podcast, like. Oh, you'll just make a few episodes and it will go crazy. People usually have to put in time, you know, consistency. But I think it was. You got a blonde and a brunette.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  You've got two girls that have access. To. Kind of celebrity.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  And they're talking about sex. And they're talking about it. From a perspective that.

• 1:24:46Speaker 00

  Is like, get yours.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:24:52Speaker 00

  And I'm not gonna say we were the first. Two girls talking about sex. But the way we were talking about it.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  We were the first girls to do that.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:06Speaker 00

  Graphic. Locker room talk for women.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  For women, yes.

• 1:25:11Speaker 00

  That's what it was.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  And so it just resonates, it blows up.

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Massive success.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  So much so that you say then Barstools.

• 1:25:21Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Contacts who? You, them, who?

• 1:25:25Speaker 00

  So Alex. Knew, she was dating. The most famous Mets pitcher at the time.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:37Speaker 00

  And so. She, Barstool Sports had like. Mentioned her in their like hottie of the day. Thing.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:25:52Speaker 00

  They reach out. They knew who she was. She had been on their radar and Dave Portnoy, the owner. And founder of Barstool reaches out to her. And says. I saw. The podcast.

• 1:26:11Speaker 00

  We want you to come in.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  So, so that at this point though. It's really just, is it just you and Alex that own this? Even though there's that trust fund podcast network, trust fund baby podcast network thing. It's your, it's yours.

• 1:26:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  At this time.

• 1:26:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  And you probably haven't even heard or thought of intellectual property.

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  Fuck, hell no. I was about to say fuck, no.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  I mean, you can, you can, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  I've never heard of that in my life.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Right. So it's still just, this is fun, this is a hobby.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  But then it sounds like Barstools is offering some kind of deal.

• 1:26:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  All right. So what, what is the deal? That they offer?

• 1:26:55Speaker 00

  The deal is. You girls are gonna get paid seventy-five K. We're gonna take the IP.

• 1:27:07Speaker 00

  Each year. There's a raise, but. We get bonuses on performance on top of that seventy-five K.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:20Speaker 00

  In exchange for one episode a week and. The IP.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, now when you hear this.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  What, what do you think?

• 1:27:34Speaker 00

  It's crazy, but I'm thinking, sign the piece of paper bitch.

• 1:27:42Speaker 00

  Is it crazy to hand over your intellectual property? Yes. But I was at Morgan Stanley. You know?

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:54Speaker 00

  I didn't know. I don't know if, looking back, if I would change that, and I know that sounds insane. But. I get to leave this job where I'm getting sexually harassed every single day. Making less. And I get to go do this thing over here where I talk. The talk with my best friend once a week.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  Hi, where can I sign?

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, once a week, so you have the rest of the week to do?

• 1:28:27Speaker 00

  Like.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  What, whatever.

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  That's literally how I thought about it. I was like, oh my, I just get to talk shit for an hour a week and get paid more money? Let's do it. Obviously, it ended up. Call Her Daddy was everything. That was a twenty-four-seven job.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  Yes, so then, when you start. How, how do you? What's it, what's the experience?

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Well, when we got that offer, I remember. Walking out. Into the street in New York and us grabbing each other's arms and jumping up and down. Screaming. And I remember thinking to myself. You live in New York and have a podcast.

• 1:29:22Speaker 00

  Like, I have chills right now because what? How?

• 1:29:28Speaker 00

  That was a moment where I was like. There's no way I set out to do this and I'm doing it.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:36Speaker 00

  And that was a real pinch-me moment.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Yes, for all of us, what we saw from the outside is we saw. This podcast just catapult and take off and go to heights that I don't think anyone had really seen.

• 1:29:51Speaker 00

  No. Two million. Listeners. Per episode in two months.

• 1:30:03Speaker 00

  That's like. It, it, that doesn't, that's a complete anomaly, that's not a normal thing.

• 1:30:15Speaker 00

  Like, that fast.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yes. But this is after you've signed your deal.

• 1:30:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  So then. I would imagine fairly quickly. You and Alex have a conversation around, hold on for a second. Maybe we. Need to renegotiate. And is that how it happens, or is it friends or family that tell you you need to?

• 1:30:38Speaker 00

  I like, I'm trying to think of exactly the timeline, but basically. We blow up overnight. And we don't know to the extent.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  Yet. We see it on social media. But people start. Wanting to get in on this. And we have agents reach out and we get asked if they can fly us to Los Angeles to just do a meeting. You know?

• 1:31:13Speaker 00

  And. Then. When we are like. Debuting number one episode. In the world's type shit. On a regular basis. It becomes very clear how big we are. And. Family, friends, and people, we have complete strangers are like. Do you know how massive you are? And. Are you? You're not being compensated. Correctly. For this level of success.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:56Speaker 00

  We outperformed the seventy-five K.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:01Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, because, because that, at that point, where I understand Barstool was making. What, in excess of a hundred thousand? Uh, an, an episode?

• 1:32:12Speaker 00

  A hundred thousand dollars per episode.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Per episode, right, whereas. That's what you're, you're making less than that across the year, in essence.

• 1:32:21Speaker 00

  Well, and that's just. With advertisers. We're not even talking about merchandise. We did one hoodie that sold a million dollars.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  There's money. Being made. So.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  So, so at this point, within the year then, is it when you and Alex? You write a letter. Saying that we want to renegotiate.

• 1:32:49Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Okay, and you know what's interesting is, you know what I have right here? You know I have surprises. Oh no, my phone is crushed it.

• 1:32:58Speaker 00

  Oh shit.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Oh no, my phone is crushed it, it's not pretty anymore.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  You know what this is? This is your letter.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  Stop.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  This is your letter.

• 1:33:10Speaker 00

  Shut up, I need to see this shit.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  That's the letter. Does that look familiar?

• 1:33:17Speaker 00

  Let me.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Can, can, are, are you okay reading that out loud?

• 1:33:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:33:25Speaker 00

  Oh my god. Hi Erica and Dave. While we are certainly proud of what we've accomplished and enjoy being a part of the Barstool family. We can't help but feel that if we had possessed a better sense. Of how the business worked when we first moved Call Her Daddy to Barstool. And had had the benefit of more experienced representation. We would have done things very differently.

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  Therefore, we would like to revisit the structure of our deal and come to a new agreement. To do this, it probably makes the most sense to have our representative speak to the appropriate person at Barstool. Looking forward to your thoughts, Alex and Sophia.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  You remember that? I'll hold on to that, yeah.

• 1:34:15Speaker 00

  Now I do.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was sent off. And this is what seems to then be the precursor. Behind you and Alex splitting.

• 1:34:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  So. What happened? Because at this point, you two are unified.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  I'm gonna say the precursor to us. Breaking up. Is actually. Before this. But.

• 1:34:48Speaker 00

  Being. Two women in the space.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  Talking about sex. Being compared. Being which one is better constantly, every single day. Then entering into these negotiations and.

• 1:35:13Speaker 00

  Not seeing eye to eye.

• 1:35:18Speaker 00

  We, for the first time in our friendship and our relationship, have. Some friction.

• 1:35:27Speaker 00

  I also, at that point.

• 1:35:31Speaker 00

  For the first time. Had a voice. Because for a lot of it, I was like.

• 1:35:40Speaker 00

  This is a hobby, like, just kind of down. For whatever. And now, this thing had become my baby, I understood our leverage, I understood business. I understood intellectual property. I grew up. A little bit, and very quickly.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  Because when you're that, making that much money and you reach that level of success. You're gonna learn very quickly, the industry, right?

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:13Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:36:17Speaker 00

  That's, it's like such a hard question to answer. Like, how did it go from that to imploding? There's, there's so many things, I don't think it was any one thing.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  And I think that's what happens with, you know, you think about a divorce, right? It's never one thing.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  It's, sometimes, you know, people call it a death by a thousand, you know, wounds.

• 1:36:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  So it seems like there's many things happening.

• 1:36:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  So then, at, at what point? Did you, did you realize? That you and Alex would no longer be working together?

• 1:37:01Speaker 00

  I. Find out. That.

• 1:37:08Speaker 00

  She. Had been making more money than me. Had been lying to me about it. For a year.

• 1:37:22Speaker 00

  Lying to our shared attorney. Sending him into meetings to like negotiate on our behalf. Under false pretenses.

• 1:37:39Speaker 00

  That betrayal, fi- finding that out. Leads me to find out. A whole array of shit. Which is.

• 1:37:52Speaker 00

  So. Even now, it's like. Crazy.

• 1:37:59Speaker 00

  Because. This isn't just a friendship. And this isn't just. Co-founders. Business partners. We live together. Just the two of us. We are the closest friends. To a degree that is almost like. Not healthy. We are a unit, we are. Each other's everything. When I find out about that betrayal.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  I actually. I think about leaving.

• 1:38:44Speaker 00

  But.

• 1:38:47Speaker 00

  I end up saying.

• 1:38:50Speaker 00

  You know what? We can stay here, but let's just make sure we get the contract we deserve.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:01Speaker 00

  I don't want to roll over on points.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:06Speaker 00

  And.

• 1:39:11Speaker 00

  We're butting heads. I'm like pushing to get us a better deal. She's ready to sign. And somewhere in there,

• 1:39:25Speaker 00

  she goes to Dave, realizes that she's kind of losing control, right?

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:32Speaker 00

  We're both fifty fifty partners. And I'm now standing up for myself. She realizes she's losing some of the control. She goes to Dave and says, "I want to do it. I'm coming to you and I'm gonna get in the studio." Because we stopped releasing episodes.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Okay, to be able to

• 1:39:56Speaker 00

  Leverage.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Leverage for your renegotiation.

• 1:39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it worked. I mean, Dave wouldn't. He said, "I'm not talking to your lawyer." And then later he said, "Tell him to bring a helmet."

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Okay. So, yeah, holding back. So then when she says that,

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  does she go into the studio and start releasing without you?

• 1:40:20Speaker 00

  She goes in and I don't know if she recorded. Yeah, she did. She went in. And while I was over here thinking, "How am I gonna fix the friendship?" Because I can't fake that to the listeners.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  And just like coming, trying to understand the betrayal. And also on the phone with lawyers, agents, we're negotiating. She's over here strategizing her new fucking show.

• 1:41:04Speaker 00

  Not a new show, right? Her era without me.

• 1:41:11Speaker 00

  And I know that to people that sounds like it's not adding up. Why would she be able to take the show and you wouldn't?

• 1:41:24Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:41:27Speaker 00

  That is how it happened. I was offered to do my own show at Barstool.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:35Speaker 00

  I said, "Fuck off, no." But

• 1:41:42Speaker 00

  Dave calls me and he says, "I would rather it be the two of you." I went around the office and asked, "Who was the favorite?"

• 1:41:54Speaker 00

  It was fifty fifty. "I don't have a preference for either of you and I don't listen to your show because it's Dave." Um, but the show is stronger. It being the two of you, work it out.

• 1:42:10Speaker 00

  And I tried to do that.

• 1:42:14Speaker 00

  And I reached out to her

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  more than once. She was gone.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  So you stopped living with each other at this point, too?

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  We were living with each other.

• 1:42:28Speaker 00

  We were living with each other COVID hit.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:42:33Speaker 00

  But we are living with each other.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  So did you at this, did you then, did you decide to step away when you couldn't see, you couldn't meet terms with Alex?

• 1:42:49Speaker 00

  No, I was cut out. I was cut out.

• 1:42:55Speaker 00

  Like she went and had the conversation,

• 1:43:00Speaker 00

  left me on red.

• 1:43:03Speaker 00

  I mean, I guess, because you, at that point, did I walk away? I mean, I guess, but what am I walking away from?

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:14Speaker 00

  I have always found women as safety. This betrayal rocked my world and everything I knew about life to my core. And

• 1:43:34Speaker 00

  yeah. I mean, there's so many, exactly what you said. When someone goes through a divorce, there's no one thing, but that's, that's how you sum it up.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Speaker 00

  And that's why I wrote a book. Exactly what you said, divorce, it's all these little, and that is why

• 1:43:58Speaker 00

  it had to be a book. There's no like other like form of content that can capture exactly what made it all rupture. And so

• 1:44:16Speaker 00

  it's walk away, I think that's where people need to read it.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:44:24Speaker 00

  Because that's where they see kind of all of the little pieces and how we got here.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yes, because I will, I will say is that we have an advanced copy of the book. And there is detail that I think everyone needs to read in order to fully understand step by step what happened.

• 1:44:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Which will blow minds. Now, can I ask this? Here, here's the part that I truly don't understand. Is after something like this happens,

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  the public reaction.

• 1:45:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  So how would you qualify the public reaction? And how did you deal with that?

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  Public enemy number one, me.

• 1:45:17Speaker 00

  Eviscerated. Everyone is at home. COVID has struck. They're living online.

• 1:45:28Speaker 00

  And that was one of one experiences. And

• 1:45:39Speaker 00

  traumatic doesn't even begin to capture, like, it was traumatic, but that doesn't even feel like enough.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  To describe it?

• 1:45:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  You, you know, you, you walked us through your life, your childhood. And when I hear that, that's traumatic.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  But from what I understand, this was the lowest point in your life.

• 1:46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. No question.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Do, do you, do you recall a moment

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  that you're comfortable describing? So that we can understand exactly what you were going through?

• 1:46:30Speaker 00

  I think there were several, but

• 1:46:37Speaker 00

  there is a moment that I write about in the book.

• 1:46:45Speaker 00

  Very visceral. And it's one of the few things that I remember from that time period. Because I disassociate, it's PTSD. I

• 1:47:05Speaker 00

  blocked out so much. Um,

• 1:47:12Speaker 00

  but I'm standing in the kitchen and I actually feel the disassociation. Like I remove myself. And it was like an out of body experience. And

• 1:47:32Speaker 00

  it was like I was watching myself do it and numb it. And that was a really crazy moment, but this was week after week after week. So I'm also like trying to understand the betrayal piece.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:56Speaker 00

  And I, alongside the rest of the world, am like, how did we get here? I'm, and I'm witnessing it with everyone else.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Yes. Were you getting, were you getting messages?

• 1:48:12Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  And listen, and what's the sentiment of the messages you're getting?

• 1:48:17Speaker 00

  This thing is picked up by The New York Times, The Cut, The Wall Street Journal. This is now massive news.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Mainstream news.

• 1:48:30Speaker 00

  Mainstream news. And

• 1:48:35Speaker 00

  the visceral hatred for me, I still don't quite understand it, but I guess the internet can breed that, right? But I'm receiving

• 1:48:54Speaker 00

  horrible comments, DMs. My family's receiving horrible comments and DMs.

• 1:49:05Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, I would, I would, you can read them. You know, like that's the thing, this this content is still alive, like you can go and see thousands of comments on one picture, your snake, your and it knew no bounds. There wasn't one thing I wasn't called.

• 1:49:35Speaker 00

  Very crazy experience and one that not a lot of people will have in their lifetime.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  And, and just to check in with how you were managing with mental health during that time? Because here you are, you're still just a few years removed from Utah. Uh, this was the only safe circle that you had. You've now been, you're, you're now out of that safe circle. The world you feel is, is turned against you.

• 1:50:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  Emotionally,

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  what was happening for you?

• 1:50:20Speaker 00

  When you have the world echoing shit about you,

• 1:50:30Speaker 00

  you start to believe it.

• 1:50:34Speaker 00

  You second guess, well, if everyone feels this way, there's there I what did I do? I started to try to

• 1:50:49Speaker 00

  figure out what it was that I did.

• 1:50:55Speaker 00

  And my mental health was

• 1:51:01Speaker 00

  uh not it wasn't there. My mental health was gone. And I became very distrusting of everyone. My sense of reality was like skewed. I questioned my mom at one point and thought she was filming me like I was not okay in the head at all.

• 1:51:30Speaker 00

  And I was needing to launch a show. My new podcast. So

• 1:51:39Speaker 00

  there was no I wasn't there was no I wasn't taking care of myself.

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  Okay, this is why in in in the book uh you described with the launch of the new podcast. You would just break down while while while recording.

• 1:51:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:55Speaker 00

  I hated I I hated. I wasn't ready to do it, but I'm back in Utah.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  So you had to leave New York.

• 1:52:06Speaker 00

  I left New York, back in my mom's basement, back to the old me. You know, leaning on whatever stuff that would help me numb, disassociate. I didn't want to be on the planet, let alone speaking into a microphone.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Okay. If if if I can ask, only if you want to. You said you didn't want to be on the planet. What did that mean exactly?

• 1:52:40Speaker 00

  The thought crossed my mind a few times.

• 1:52:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, do I want to be here? I don't think

• 1:52:55Speaker 00

  it was. I had never really asked that question before. Um, I wasn't sure.

• 1:53:06Speaker 00

  You call that suicidal ideation. There was definitely some of that going on for sure.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:53:16Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Which is insane.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I I I think too is the such extreme high, such extreme low in such a short period of time.

• 1:53:29Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Is just I I I don't know if I've heard a story like that. So Sophia, what what got you through?

• 1:53:40Speaker 00

  Time.

• 1:53:47Speaker 00

  Therapy.

• 1:53:52Speaker 00

  Dealing with. Okay, dealing with this, but then taking it back to the beginning. Similar to how we started. Dealing with the core childhood shit.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:11Speaker 00

  Right? Like I tackle this trauma and then we take it back to the beginning.

• 1:54:20Speaker 00

  And then writing the book. Because even after I

• 1:54:26Speaker 00

  did my hot girl healing journey, as I call it.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Okay. Not just girl, it was a high girl journey. Of course it happened.

• 1:54:35Speaker 00

  Hot hot mess, hot girl healing journey. Um, meditation. But

• 1:54:46Speaker 00

  once I did all of that,

• 1:54:50Speaker 00

  I still walked around like the girl we talked about that was frozen in time, that got canceled. That was all the things people said she was.

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  And I tried to deny that part of my story.

• 1:55:15Speaker 00

  And it wasn't working anymore. So once I decided to write a book.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:24Speaker 00

  Own it.

• 1:55:27Speaker 00

  Not deny it. This is a part of your story.

• 1:55:34Speaker 00

  That's like when everything changed.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  And you say everything because it seems like your life has changed drastically, even uh romantically.

• 1:55:46Speaker 00

  I I'm a new bitch like romantically, just in every way, my life changed once I decided to like

• 1:56:03Speaker 00

  own all the parts of me and all the things that make me who I am right now. And I stopped treating men like shit. I realized that was a

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  actually really insecure, scared of being hurt, but wanting to be loved so bad.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:56:31Speaker 00

  Little girl.

• 1:56:35Speaker 00

  I worked on healing that. And then I fell in love for the first time.

• 1:56:42Speaker 00

  And that came with its own set of, you know, I still tried to kind of push him away and that's why he's my husband because he didn't let me.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  Look at that. Fell in love for the first time.

• 1:56:58Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  And you got married to him.

• 1:57:01Speaker 00

  And he's he's

• 1:57:05Speaker 00

  he's changed my life and I just smile when I think about him and I also get emotional because

• 1:57:16Speaker 00

  how much of my childhood shit shows up in your partnership.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57:24Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:57:25Speaker 00

  It makes you face so many things.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:57:30Speaker 00

  And that was really healing.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's absolutely there's there's a photo I want to show you. And I think is this is this is the perfect time for it because it depicts. What you're saying here is this.

• 1:57:45Speaker 00

  It's so. This is still crazy to me. This is just still bizarre.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Because you think of where you were, that low point back at your mom's basement.

• 1:57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  And then you see here you are.

• 1:58:01Speaker 00

  A bride like.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 00

  What the hell? What the? How my life has changed. Oh, I get I gotta get this back.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the one you wanted to keep.

• 1:58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  I'll I'll I'll give it to I'll I'll give you that one later. Yeah, you're it is um um it's it's a powerful story.

• 1:58:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Right? I think of addressing you.

• 1:58:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  Right? And and and and settling your demons.

• 1:58:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  You know, uh and this is precisely what you did.

• 1:58:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  Um, one que I'm just curious is since that stuff. So since the when you and Alex were renegotiating.

• 1:58:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Is that the last time you spoke with her?

• 1:58:50Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  You have not talked to her since?

• 1:58:52Speaker 00

  No. No.

• 1:58:57Speaker 00

  It. No. I don't know if we ever will and what a it's still crazy to me, but that was the end.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  That was the end. That was the end. Well, can I show you?

• 1:59:17Speaker 00

  Is it my second mug shot? Oh, this is my book.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  This is the

• 1:59:22Speaker 00

  Thank God.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  This is can I say? In terms of books, I mean, I'm super nerd.

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  Uh, in terms of books, this must be one of the best titled books I have ever seen in my life.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  It it is it is um, I mean, it is absolutely incredible, but.

• 1:59:43Speaker 00

  The play on the word daddy. We got call her daddy. We got the real daddy issues. It's like.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Speaker 00

  It was brilliant.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  It was brilliant. It was brilliant. Just as you are brilliant, Sophia Franklin, you are.

• 2:00:00Speaker 00

  Thank you so much.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  I am I I say what there's a there's a final question everyone gets.

• 2:00:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  You have had some incredible conversations in your life. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with and what did you learn?

• 2:00:17Speaker 00

  Okay, well, I want to say this one. But I will refrain from doing that. I think the most important conversation I had was

• 2:00:31Speaker 00

  with my husband

• 2:00:35Speaker 00

  and Shelley, who is a relationship coach.

• 2:00:45Speaker 00

  And it was like this retreat we did, but

• 2:00:53Speaker 00

  I had not thought about my biological father and how he was him not being there was showing up in my life in all these different ways.

• 2:01:06Speaker 00

  And this conversation with my husband and with the relationship coach.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:01:17Speaker 00

  She took me back. And I learned that this thing that I was told my whole life, you're okay, you don't have a dad.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:28Speaker 00

  Actually had impacted me and that was okay.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:01:36Speaker 00

  And I denied, I denied, you know, that for up until two years ago.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  Wow, look at that.

• 2:01:45Speaker 00

  And once I confronted that, that also unlocked the relationship that I have now with my husband. And so many other things and how I was living my life.

• 2:02:03Speaker 00

  So

• 2:02:05Speaker 00

  did I, did I?

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  You, you, you answered it, you answered it.

• 2:02:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  And, and I, and I will say this, even connecting to that is, um, you know, in these conversations, I listen very, very closely. And, um, I'm an empath. So I, I, I feel it at the same time. And the moment that I'm telling you, I felt the most wake was when you talked about wanting to, you met your biological father on those occasions. And not feeling as if he

• 2:02:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:38Speaker 01

  accepted you. And I then watched that play out throughout your life.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  And when this whole turmoil happens around, call her daddy. Here you have the world now saying.

• 2:02:58Speaker 00

  You're not lovable.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  You're not lovable.

• 2:03:00Speaker 00

  You're not worthy.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  You're not worthy. And I felt that pain. And I think it's, that's why it's so important. If you want to understand someone, you need to go back and you need to understand their, the fullness of their story. And that's what I hope that people will, will, will, will hear and feel.

• 2:03:16Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  But then what is so profound, where I'm so proud of you is, is went back home.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  And started from the beginning again.

• 2:03:27Speaker 00

  Started from the beginning.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  And, and, and built back up. And now, now look at you. Look at you. Place of strength.

• 2:03:33Speaker 00

  Thank you, but you're, you're brilliant. I mean, and you connecting those pieces, like, I had, you know, please love me written on my forehead.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:48Speaker 00

  And it's partly why I'm successful, but

• 2:03:54Speaker 00

  it's because of, you know, my early understanding of who I was and a girl without a dad. And the meeting him and denying that wasn't helping me, right?

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  But it showed up in every piece.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  In every piece, but now you know.

• 2:04:14Speaker 00

  Now I know.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  Right. So think of how incredible life becomes from this moment going forward.

• 2:04:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's gonna be incredible.

• 2:04:24Speaker 00

  And I already am feeling that with my book, husband memoir, like.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Yep. There you go.

• 2:04:32Speaker 00

  Wow. Thank you.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:04:35Speaker 00

  Beyond, beyond, beyond.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. Sophia Franklin. What a powerhouse. What a story of resilience.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  What a story of, uh, of rejection. Sophia was looking for not just love and affirmation, but specifically from her father. And all of the things that she was doing, you can see it was in part a result of daddy issues. Um, and it's so ironic that she would then become an adult and have daddy issues, but in a different form. Like she described Alex Cooper as closer than a friend. This was her business partner. This was her roommate. This was her

• 2:05:33Speaker 01

  everything. I mean, it, she, admittedly is, she's just, she's just come back. Um, and it's, it, it, it sounds like writing her book has been the last piece of, of, of, of therapy that she's needed to be able to, to regain her strength. You know, you know what I really like is, I, I like how unfiltered Sophia was. She knows that there will be resistance. She knows that there will be people who are not supportive of her. But yet she's another one of our guests who's speaking truth to power. And, and that I, um,

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  that I love.

• 2:06:14Speaker 06

  I knew I was gay maybe at seven. And growing up, hearing conversations about gay people, like they need to die. And I remember my dad, he was like, the Bible says you cannot be gay.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  What does that do to someone? Please welcome Ricky Thompson. As a young boy, what were your dreams?

• 2:06:32Speaker 06

  To be an actor. I just wanted to be in front of the camera. I wanted people screaming my name, but I was bullied all the time. Then I got revived in junior year of high school. And I remember sitting in class and my phone goes off. People was like, you just got revived by Kylie Jenner. And that's when everything took off. I went from the underdog to winning prom king at my high school.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  So how were you earning money at that time?

• 2:06:50Speaker 06

  I was going on tour. My first check was 50,000. Coming out of high school and I had never had a job before, I said, oh, I'm definitely going to LA. What?

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  Did you try acting?

• 2:06:59Speaker 06

  I got booked on a YouTube Red show that went on for four years. So I got to act.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  You're in LA, you're out.

• 2:07:05Speaker 06

  It was everything.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  It's everything until it wasn't.

• 2:07:07Speaker 06

  After the show and I got no auditions, nothing. My agency dropped me, my manager dropped me.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Why did they drop you?

• 2:07:14Speaker 06

  They said I ran out of money completely. So I had to move with my friend. And I said, okay, let's start from the beginning. I locked myself in my room and I started posting videos on Instagram. So I will post everything that, and that's my next job.

• 2:07:26Speaker 01

  There were moments where you thought you were over life.

• 2:07:28Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, I was ready to go.

• 2:07:32Speaker 06

  There's a pill version of Ozempic.

• 2:07:35Speaker 03

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• 2:07:36Speaker 06

  And I'm other GLP ones, kind of like him.

• 2:07:38Speaker 03

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