Two Founders Debate: Brand First or Revenue First? With Angela Hodgson

Two founders. 44 years of combined business experience. No script. Just a live conversation about what actually moves the needle, and what quietly destroys it. Angela Hodgson built her business for five years without a logo. Jackson went homeless while running a company called First Class Business. In this episode, they get raw about personal branding, authenticity, and the framework Jackson calls the Seven Avatars of Business, a concept that no one is teaching, but every entrepreneur desperately needs. 🔔 Subscribe for weekly entrepreneur interviews and real business strategies. 0:00 - Two founders go live with no script 4:00 - Personal branding: the good, the dangerous, and the fake 9:00 - Why authenticity has to come before the brand 14:00 - Jackson's vulnerable moment: going homeless with "sustainable revenue" as your tagline 20:00 - Angela reframes the homelessness as the ultimate act of integrity 24:00 - Don't let branding inertia stop you from starting 28:00 - The Seven Avatars of Business: who walks in your door? 33:00 - Avatar 1: Customers, and why most businesses stop here 36:00 - Avatar 2: Vendors, the strategic allies you're ignoring 39:00 - Avatars 3-7: Investors, candidates, team members, prospects, and media 45:00 - Angela adds the 8th avatar: regulators and legislators 50:00 - The visionary vs. integrator dynamic in business and marriage 56:00 - Final words: find the partner who makes your vision sustainable #VisionProsLive #BusinessStrategy #AngelaHodgson #PersonalBranding #BusinessAvatars #EntrepreneurMindset #BrandBuilding #BusinessGrowth #JacksonCalame #firstclassbusiness

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So no, it's already ultra raw and real with my hair. That's how we do it here in Ecuador. So Angela, where are you based right now?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  I am in England. So north and northwest England is where I'm based. So in between two big cities. One's called Manchester and the other one's called Liverpool, which people might know for football. They're like two big football cities.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  You know.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Writing my post for LinkedIn at the same time.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  Almost literally on the opposite side of the world from each other.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  That's so fun. And so, yes, as, as we have promised, we are going to be talking about branding, growth and priorities. We're both going to bring our experiences together on this vision process. Those of you out there who are building, this is a unique and amazing opportunity. We also want to be real and raw. So we, while we're setting this up, we, you know, Angela and I have done one interview in the past. We've gotten to know each other pretty well. I have a lot of respect for how she builds a business and the different opportunities that she's built with in the past. And I was like, you know what? Do you want us to go live and do this as we go? And she's like, sure. So let's go live while we post on LinkedIn and while we just handle like the, the nuts and bolts of how we want to move things forward. And entrepreneurs, I think that's one of the greatest lessons that we can all learn.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  It's live. I've posted it.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  Progress is far better than perfect. Like you're not going to reach perfection. And so it's so important to just get out there and, and do things sometimes. Yet you still want to be aware of, of the dangers that can exist. And what we're doing right now, this, this isn't that dangerous. So I'm, I'm okay with, with flying by the seat of our pants a little bit. But we are going to spar today. Um, you know, we're going to, I hope that you will look for opportunities to kind of poke holes in some of my the, my theories, Angela, or things that I bring up and of course be doing the same. We'll play devil's advocate and really I call angels advocate for each other on this. So anything you want to add before we continue to like, I don't know, more official segments, I guess?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  I think just about the, you know, you said that, you know, we can, it's easy to kind of just go on and do these things as business owners. But the reality is actually it can be a little bit scary. You know, the thought that people could potentially be watching you right now as somebody might walk in the door or you might sneeze or you might whatever, you know, all of that authentic kind of piece is actually really real. The way that we are as business owners is we are that as people. And that's what I think is nice to show that sneak behind the curtain of what it actually is to run a business, because it's not all the bells and whistles and the glamorous bits that you post online all the time.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. It's something I take for granted because I've been in the digital space. You know, since I've been working for a startup since twenty ten. Um, but I've been working heavily with video and video interaction since twenty sixteen or so with video power marketing. And oh my gosh, just jumping on a Zoom call was scary back then. Um, you know, like showing my face on that Zoom call and it's easy to forget. To have empathy for people who haven't done that before and then going live on podcasts. It's so much harder for me to record a V S L, by the way, like a a static video that you have to get right and that you can edit. It's harder for me to do that than it is to go live. I don't know if that's weird or not, but what's harder for you to record, pre-recording a video or going live?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Pre-recording is harder and the reason for that is because I overthink it. And then I really start thinking about the words and what my face looked like and. Did my hands look okay at that point and was I breathing enough? It's a big one, but you know, when you're live, you're just authentic and it's just you, you're just in the, I think you're more involved in the conversation as well when you're live. Because you can't edit what what it is that you're saying and that. M and R and the thought process is actually nice for people to see that you're not always polished. You don't always have the answers, you know, to come out off the cuff.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  I love it. I love it. I got the huge advantage here because I get to lead like the direction we go. And there was no question provided, you know, there's like, there was no direction other than we're going to be talking about vision. And so, and then we came up with the conversation, the two founders sparring, literally like right before we hit live. Um, so Angela's coming in fresh, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the lead on this and I'm gonna plant the seed for you to have a little bit of time to think about this, Angela. But if there's a concept that business owners are kind of unaware of or not participating, that can make a big difference for their brand. What would that concept be? What's something that you can give to the world that will make people go like, dang? I I'm excited to dive into that or I really need to verify that with chat G P T or like I should probably see if my business is doing that.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  I'll lead the way on that thought process. So one of the big concepts that I've been teaching clients over the last year. That is just blowing everybody's mind. Because nobody in the world is teaching it and it's so fundamental, it will literally change everything about how you think about the business. It's called the seven avatars of business. The seven avatars that we need to prepare for as a business, nobody's teaching it, it will change the game for you. Um, it's one of those things that we're going to talk about on your side, Angela. Is there a concept like that, something that you want to bring up today? That will help people get centered around what's most important for them to, for their branding, for their growth, or for their priorities of their, of their business.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  For me, it's about personal branding because people buy from people, right? So if you have your business brand, it's always the polished version of that. It's the thing that you publicly put out there on social media and in your marketing channels. But personal branding, there's been a massive rise in that in the last couple of years, and particularly I'm seeing it this year. And I think it's because people want to show their own stories, they want to show their own passions, their own purpose. Their own sneak behind the brand of what, you know, is the kind of glamorous glossy version that goes out there. And I'm really engaged with that and I'm really into it now. I started that journey of personal branding in January this year and I was really quite scared like, oh my gosh, I'm going to crash record, oh my gosh, I've got to do fourteen version or something, oh, I need to, I want to post something on social media, but I don't know what to post.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  And now I just post anything and everything that comes into my mind because I think you, then you're getting the actual real version of me. So when they do come working with me and they do become my client, they kind of know what to expect by that point because they've already known, like and trusted you by that stage.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Oh, I really like that and I love that you add some context into that personal branding that takes it in an even healthier direction. That I see most people taking that, so that is something that we're definitely going to spar on. Um, you know, for the sake of the audience, we're going to, we're going to dive into and there are goods and bads and ugly signs of that, so I, I definitely want to, and like I said, if you think of things when we talk about the seven avatars of business too, where you're like, Jackson, let's poke some holes in this theory, let's do it. This, this is like two mathematicians, my friends, going on chalkboards and we're like looking at each other's notes and seeing what's there and, and adding. While we're also allowing any of you other nerdy mathematicians to come along and.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Play with us. So, you know, this is, this is all about business nerdship and, and trying to create even greater visions for all of us. So we'll see you guys on the other side. We'll be right back. We'll take a short break. And then we'll dive right into our visions of, of how do we do a better job with our branding? How do we create more growth for ourselves? And how do we prioritize as business owners? All right. Welcome into Vision Pros Live with Jackson Callum. I'm your show host. We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs and guest leaders who are building fantastic visions out there.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome into another episode of Vision Pros Live. I'm your show host, Jackson Callum, founder and CEO of First Class Business. And I'm super excited to have another phenomenal business owner on stage today, Angela Hodgson. Between her and I, we've got 44 years of business experience. The glory, the gory, the, the, the good, the bad, and the ugly, all of the above. I'm going to start out humbly with a very, very important request. Please, if you see this, subscribe on YouTube. We recently changed our YouTube channels up. We had First Class Business YouTube channel growing quite well. And we decided, you know what? Let's go ahead and make this harder for ourselves. Divide our content so that it's easier for you guys to access and know what you're getting.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  But let's start the Vision Pros Live channel. So we've got like, I don't know, 60 subscribers, maybe six on there. I don't know. It's not very big. But if you can go and subscribe on that, we're going to continue to provide the content that will help you clarify your vision, connect with some of the world's best leaders and see behind the scenes of how they're creating their visions to inspire you on your way. This has been such a unique and awesome opportunity. I don't know if you'll know, we're at a, we're a top 5% global show at this point. And apparently on Podmatch, we're one of the top ranked interview shows out of over 11,000 shows. You know, we're on the list of 300 top shows, but we've also cracked the top 10 list on that several times. So it's been a real big honor to talk to the, the wonderful leaders that we have.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  And again, your subscription helps us reach more people who are like you and who might, might need some better leadership. Might need some mentorship, might need some ideas for having with the brand sports. So before I bring Angela on stage, I do want to give you a few more tools and opportunities and ideas. Junaid Ahmed of Home Studio Mastery, he builds world-class podcast studios. He's also a top two percent global podcaster with hacks and hobbies. He's a friend of mine. And we love to talk about what he does because he's able to help people set up their podcasts from a successful standpoint, from an, or from an infrastructure standpoint for success, alright? Microphone, right backgrounds and stuff. As you guys noticed, you need to do a great, just kidding. He didn't do my studio. I'm down in Ecuador on a humanitarian mission. I love to help out. I'm not too big into like the fancy studio aspects, but I am into quali- quality audio.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  I am into making sure that my audience get what's at one out of the show. It's really nice to have a mastermind with, with Junaid and make sure that again, our, our podcast studio is taken care of. And I hope that you have the chance to do the same with us or with him. Then there's Dr. Danny Brussel. Any of you who have kids or have friends that have kids, I hope that you're, you're striving to find the best coaches and trainers and teachers for them. Danny Inspire, he teaches, he teaches parents how to inspire their children to love to read. And specifically, he works with struggling readers and is able to help them turn into passionate readers. And he's one of the world's best educators. He's got over three hundred testimonial videos from educators out there and I've seen him on stage. He's become one of my best friends over the last year.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  And I can't say enough about Dr. Danny, what he's able to do. He does also help corporations and help business leaders with their growth. As one of the few speakers out there who gets paid, again, I'll say that again, as one of the, and it looks like everybody gets paid to speak. I promise you they don't. There are very few people who are actually that highly qualified who get paid on a regular basis to speak. That speaks very highly of Danny's credentials as well. The market truly does appreciate know what he's valued at. And at the end of the day, my friends, I just want you to know the resources that I find best. Neither one of these people pay me to be up here as sponsors. I put them up there because I love what they do and I believe in it. Then there's the water project, same thing. I do not have a personal connection with the water project.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  But what I do have is a connected heart to it. Now that I learned that there's millions of people out there who don't even have access to clean drinking water. My friends have never truly been thirsty in my life. I've never had to face that. And as I looked at these projects and saw that there's people who need access to what's called a sand dam or a borehole well, just so their kids can stay in school and not have to go find water for themselves, just so they didn't have to leave work. Um, I really allowed that to hit me and thought through what would my life be like, what would my children's life be like? And these kids, when they get the water, they celebrate that water, like my kids celebrate Christmas Day and it's very humbling. And we have the opportunity to contribute to that. So we contribute monthly to the water project. And my hope too, is that you will at least talk about this message. Talk about the water project with your friends and family.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Show them what they do and how the projects come to fruition. It is really neat to see the stories of these people transition uh, from, uh, you know, extreme poverty that I've never related to, to an opportunity to focus more on moving their lives forward. And this can have a generational impact for people that can last for decades. Um, and so I, I hope you get involved with us on that. Now, last thing before I bring Angela back on. If you know of another project or cause or opportunity for us to get involved and help, my hope is that you will share it in the comments. Uh, I'm a big believer that even if it's not connected, the more we give, the more we get. I've just seen it over and over in life. And so I hope that if you, you know, have a cause that we can get back to.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  If you put it in the comments, I'll personally take a look at that. I will probably share it with my team as well and have them take a look at it. And we will try to evaluate how we can get involved. And that's just another way we can help out the eight billion people in this world who really need it. So let's get back to helping each one of you. Um, we get into sparring with Angela. Maybe she's supposed to haymaker right away when we bring her on. Angela, welcome back to Vision Pros Live.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Well, thank you very much.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  That was a very nice haymaker.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I don't know what a haymaker is. I've never heard the phrase.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  It was a giant punch, like you come in swinging.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I had no idea what it meant.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  There we go. Cool. We learned something new today. We can wrap up. Everybody have a good day. Nope, just kidding. Um, all right. So, well, we're gonna dive right back in and we're talking about this idea of personal branding. And the personal branding, uh, just like everything in life, there's a good and a bad to all resources, right? And it's not the resource that's bad. So water, it can drown us and kill us. But it's also something that like we're talking about with the water project, it can provide a sense of security and safety for an entire village. Um, and so, personal branding, I have, um, I have heard rumors of stats, I will call it that, from doctors. Um, I didn't do the actual research myself, but I've also seen this firsthand.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  So many people are getting caught up in the Instagram life.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Right? And the fake reality, fake it till you make it. I actually fired a client a while back who, uh, had over five hundred thousand followers and she was lying to her followers about her lifestyle. Uh, and she was literally attending events where they would, in four days, take a year's worth of photography with clothing, with fake money, with, with, uh, you know, all sorts of glamour stuff to showcase that she's living, you know, like a god, basically, or goddess. And she was making less than a janitor's salary. She was about to lose her home and there was, there was nothing authentic or true about this situation. And she was a poster child for Kajabi.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  So it's really sad too, that sometimes even the giant programs, they don't do their own research on credibility. And worse, there's a lot of these, these, these people that then turn suicidal. And they then go depressed and they feel like they have to be the brand. And I don't know too many brands that have, um, done very well over hundreds of years of period that are built on the backbone of one individual. Look no further than David Sandler of Sandler Sales Institute. The institute is the shadow of the man at this point. They did not do a great job of building the infrastructure for long-term success. Um, versus the universities that stand the test of time. So I'm not anti-personal branding.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  We're obviously here. I've got a brand to, to run and maintain and, and build as well. But I, I do want to pose, uh, the, the, take that conversation in both directions. What do we do to maximize our personal brands? How do we do so in a healthy fashion? And what are some of the downsides that maybe people don't realize when they're getting into it? That that may create a disaster for themselves, may create a monster instead of a legacy.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  I think it's interesting that you reference all of those kind of stories, particularly about the client that you fired, because that's the opposite to what I perceive personal branding to be. So it's a really interesting take because for me, personal branding is all about you as an actual authentic individual. So you're giving people insight into your actual world. Because if it is just the, you know, really structured, really polished, really glossy post, then that's not a sneak behind the curtain, that isn't a glimpse into your world. That's a curated experience that you're giving to people. Whereas on my social media or on my personal branding, I talk about my burnout. I talk about how, you know, I've struggled parenting my children.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  I str- I talk about the failures and the massive mistakes that I've made in my career. Because I want people to feel inspired and to learn from that and to feel like I really do connect with Angela. And I really do want to work with Angela because I kind of feel like I know her. Rather than me trying to pretend to be somebody who I'm not. And then they start working with me and they're like, I don't really connect, you know, I don't really understand who this person is. But the main reason I do that is because when I was in the corporate world, I wore a mask for a very long time and pretended to be something that I wasn't. And I felt really uncomfortable and it led to a burnout and it led to breakdown. And since that point, I've always said I will never do that again. So every client I work with, I talk about mistakes. Well, guess what happens? They talk about their mistakes. Guess what happens? We have a good conversation, they learn from that.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  If I pretend to be this amazing person who's never made a mistake in my life, well, it's lies because I've made a lot.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, huge. I, I really appreciate you honing in on that. So I would say, especially for the younger people in this audience, you have such a great opportunity, an important opportunity to develop and establish your authenticity first. If we don't do that, we do box ourselves in. And then later our authenticity has to be built around. Showing that we weren't authentic.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  Or you.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  I'm picking what you said online.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  You get stuck in that world of being fake. Um, I'll pick on somebody publicly. I think Johnny Manziel is stuck in that. Um, you know, and, and that's a real, real tragedy. And, and here's, here's where this came up last year. So Johnny Manziel, um, who was supposed to be, you know, I think he was the number one pick, um, in the NFL, and he'll go down and history is probably the biggest bust of a draft pick ever. And he doesn't like that story, I'm pretty sure. Um, and I'm, I'm sure that's not the legacy that he wants to be remembered for is being the cocky A and M football player who is Mr. Money to then not making it all in the NFL. And so I saw him bounce back last year. Um, but the bounce back made me even more sad because as he told his story about

• 18:22Speaker 00

  how, you know, he made some mistakes and how he's learning from those mistakes. What did he transition to? Sports gambling.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  And his story is not about, oh, look at what I did and look how I'm improving. It's, hey, come join me on this sports gambling venture. Um, and you could, you could see and feel it. It was like, dang, there's almost no authenticity, uh, baked into this whatsoever. So again, if, if we don't, if we're not careful with our lives about how do we position ourselves as a personal brand, we can get stuck in an endless loop of never really figuring out who we are, but just trying to be what the world wants us to be.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Rather than being authentic. And so, um, there's, there's a lot. I'll actually dive into some of my personal stuff too in just a minute, but um, Angela, what if, what are your thoughts on, on that process even further? Let's settle down further on this because it is such a, I think it's such a misunderstood concept of like, how do you, uh, utilize a personal brand and, and how do you do so authentically?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting actually, because I wrote an article on this. Um, I'm a columnist for a business magazine called The Female Boss. And I wrote a column exactly about this, about how you are successful without having just the curated reel behind the screens, uh, behind the scenes, sorry. And I wrote this whole thing around how even in business, you know, in your family life, you look at Instagram or you look at Facebook and you see these amazing And you look amazing and you know, the lovely staged photos like pumpkin picking was a big thing recently. Everyone's pumpkin picking and they look just beautiful in these pictures. Then I look at the pictures of me and my children, pumpkin picking, and they don't look anything like that because the kids are screaming, it's really cold. You're trying to do the smores and there's blooming marshmallow everywhere and there's chocolate everywhere and people's hands are dirty and

• 20:03Speaker 01

  they're crying because they didn't get that particular pumpkin and then the knife won't work and but that's the reality that, yeah, so what, you know, the reality, if you think I really want this really lovely hay bale pumpkin type picture is not the reality of how you get to that picture. It's the one snap that you managed to get. So I think when you show up online from a business sense and actually show, do you know, things aren't great every single day. Like I, I've delivered a training course last week and I was talking about, in fact, yesterday, I think it was, and I was talking about how to be authentic in your business and to grow your business. You have to change as an individual to do that. And there'll be things that you look at and you think it's not kind of, you know, how I want it to be. And I was talking about how to be really structured and have this really good rhythm in your business and how you can be successful from that.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  And I'm teaching that and then I'm saying to them, well, this week has been chaotic for me because this, this and this. You can still know the things and not apply it. But then that makes them feel a bit better as business owners because then otherwise I don't want them looking at me thinking I'm doing it in this perfect way because I'm not every single time. But with intention, I'm trying. And I think the more you show that publicly, the more you're giving other people permission to try. Otherwise then you, you've got to be so far elevated compared to where they are. They're never going to feel like they can reach it. So it's not aspirational. It's actually off putting.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yep, absolutely. And I want all you business owners who are not big on the personal branding side to realize that while it's an opportunity, it's not for everybody. Um, it's not something that you have to do for growth. We are, when we get into the seven avatars of business, we're going to talk about dynamics of business and actually like the the tactical and the infrastructure side of things that are going to help every single person who's listening to this. But I still think it's so important to not bury the hatchet on, on the personal brand and don't, don't turn yourself against it. Don't turn yourself for it. But just continue to see and look and see like, okay, how does this work? Because people like Walt Disney and Steve Jobs, um, you know, and uh, Michael Hyatt, T. Harvick or uh, Robert Kiyosaki, and they can keep going, Dr. Eric Burke, they have built such a dynasty for themselves.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  By making sure that they are getting their own personal brand out there. I'll also throw Stephen Bartlett with the Diary of a CEO in there as well. Um, like there's so many people that have been able to um build with that aspect of personal branding. And there's so many tools available to us now that ten years ago weren't available to leaders of the past. That's why Phil Knight's book came out recently. Um, you know, and shoe dogs, like they they didn't have those opportunities decades ago to be able to dive into personal branding like we do today. Um, so there are amazing opportunities there. I want to hit on this uh Halloween idea. Um, and just because you have great family photos during the holidays, doesn't make you a bad person either. It doesn't make you inauthentic.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not at all.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  And so I know you're not saying that Angela, but I also know some of us have that inferiority complex, that worry and fear, and it's so easy to get in our heads. Um, I had that Instagram family, you know, my first, my first attempt at being a family man and and uh having a marriage, we made it eight years. We we are divorced. Uh, we had three blonde hair, blue eyed kids. Um, you know, they're very photogenic. So we had a great life and it was, there was a lot of awesome things that were going on with that. And I still had a lot to learn about authenticity. I I don't think I'll ever stop learning about how to truly be my full self and accept my identity fully. I think that's a part of this life. But um, I can say that when we were in that position where we were kind of like, everything looked wonderful on the surface.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Um, no, not everything was wonderful on the surface and we never tried to portray that, but the grass looked greener.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  In everybody else's photos, right? And it looked like everybody else had it better than us. And we got into this, this like shameful act of comparison too, um, you know, and I guess I should only speak for myself on that. But um, you know, it it's something where we have to be careful about, can we still maintain our sense of gratitude? Can we be grateful for what we do have? And when we're trying to have those pictures and one child's sick, you know, or one child's upset. You know, there's, there's all sorts of challenges that exist in life. And I think sometimes we, we almost want to look past or move past or fast forward past those moments like in the, like in the movie. It's like without a Sandler. Um, and it's like, well, wait a second. No, those, those are all part of the elements that contribute to the holistic good and beauty of of life itself.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  And so, um, again, I, I want to just triple down on exactly what we've been talking about, which came from Angela, not me. Authenticity comes first, right? That's that's the core of this personal branding process. And so if you're younger, I'll share what Ali Abdaal shared about the experience. He said, you know, just speak from, he said, I'm a doctor, but I don't ever leverage that and I ever would. I just speak from what works for me and what things have what things have transpired from my life. And if we stay rooted in that as we strive to build our personal brands, then we don't run the risk of being inauthentic. We don't run the risk of being a faking until we make it. We don't run the risk of imposter syndrome,

• 25:00Speaker 00

  being able to do overpower us as much because we know in our hearts apart that like, no, this is this is just who I am. So another vulnerable side, I've never shared this before. In the last year, though, I actually went homeless and it's like, what? Um, you know, yeah, first class business is a beast of a of a business and there's a lot of cool things about it and Vision Pro's live is an awesome, we get a lot of it, but you learn things. And now I've learned that these articles where these billionaires talk on Forbes subtly about like, it doesn't get easier. You just have more to lose. You have you have more expenses. There are bigger challenges that exist. And so um, I've never been able to get to a point where that full sense of security,

• 25:44Speaker 00

  um, you know, is like permanent and where the sustain our our business slogan, a first class business is sustainable revenue growth. You know how embarrassing it is to go homeless with that as your as your uh, tagline? It's like, whoa, I had to really evaluate like, okay, how how do I relate to this line now? When I myself, my business model ended up becoming unsustainable. Um, and those types of challenges, like, do you talk about it? Do you not? Do you wait till after? I just said, you know what? No, I'm I'm actually willing to be open and real. And it was a it was a weird day to call some of my clients and be like, hey, uh, can you sell me?

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Can you tell me something because I got nothing right now and that that process, that walk of shame, if you will, or that walk of I'll call ownership of saying, hmm, here's where we're at. Here's what we need to learn from this. Here's where I can go from from here. Do I have to give up? Do I have to throw in the towel? Do I have to let go of everything? No, but I I do owe it to myself to be authentic with it. So again, thank you for bringing it up, Angela. I think it's so valuable to be able to do that. And my friends, be very careful with what you share and who you share with, when you share it, how I don't want to be, I don't want to inspire you all to go and expose all your dirty laundry to the world. That's not what my statement is about

• 27:09Speaker 00

  as much as it is like, no, it's very important to establish who you are as an individual and how to be authentic in the process. So Angela, let's let's end with your words on personal branding and how to go about it. What what else on the on the positive side, or I guess just on the open nature side? What else would you like to talk about for personal branding before we switch gears?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Well, before we do that, I want to just come on to what you've just said about the homelessness because I don't want to go back in. I don't want to go into personal branding when you've just revealed such a big, significant thing about yourself. So first of all, I want to say, well done you for being so brave and honest and open about those issues and experiences that you've had in your personal life. But secondary, secondly, well done you for actually making the choice, if it was a choice to go homeless, because you talk about sustainable revenue. If you'd have continued on the pathway of having whatever those assets were around you, you'd have been even more unsustainable because you'd have ended up racking up a load of debt. And then you'd have possibly ended up impacting other people's businesses because you'll have suppliers, you've had customers or clients that you couldn't cater for. So actually, I think you have stuck to your core value and your mission

• 28:11Speaker 01

  of sustainable revenue. But you've put a plug in, this was not working, and now I need to change and pivot and do it in a different way. And you've done it at the ultimate sacrifice because you've become homeless. So I just wanted to bring your mind around what you've just said.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  But.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Now you do. Yes, perfect. But I just meant kind of reframing your thoughts around how you've described the homelessness and that mission, you know, that feeling unauthentic. I don't think you were unauthentic. I think it was the ultimate authenticity.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you. And yeah, it was, it was definitely a very humbling experience to go through that. And I think most of us, just in some relation, in some parallel, we have that opportunity to face, how are we going to go through this experience? Learn from it. And I don't think I, you know, it would have been an eternal punishment to shift gears and find a new path. But only, only you know that for yourself with your vision and with your plans. And do you pivot? Is your pivot permanent? I mean, it was a temporary. Are you homeless in the sense too of, of I'm Lewis Howes and I'm sleeping on my sister's couch? Which to me is not quite homeless. You know, that, that's a different level of nature.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Or are you rock bottom and like, no, you got nowhere to go. And you gotta find somebody who can, who can help you in the process. Those challenges exist. And, you know, if you, if you watch enough stories like Martin Luther King's documentary, or Nelson Mandela, I mean, he wasn't just homeless. Nelson Mandela spent years in prison. That is, that is some rough stuff, but you know, I, I, I can't speak for him. But I can tell you, in my most difficult and darkest of experiences of life, I have often learned some of the greatest pieces of wisdom and the greatest moments of like, dang, this is going to help me forever now, whether it's through empathy, through compassion, through the sacrifice, realizing the resilience that's available to us. There's so much that's there. So,

• 30:05Speaker 00

  again, be careful, my friends, as you consider, how are you going to dive into your personal brand experience authentically? And just know that it can pay off huge dividends for, for doing just that. And Angela is a shining example of how to go about that. Before we move into seven avatars of business, anything else that you would like to propose we bring up related to branding growth or prioritizing as business owners? Let's go fast.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  The other thing that I actually, yeah, the other thing I would actually like to bring up is, as a, as a small business owner is, Don't be put off by the big brands. Don't be put off by having to have an actual brand to start off because I never had a brand, literally up until about five months ago when I've been in business for five years. I didn't have a brand. I had a logo that my friend created for me. And I had that I had a colour palette and on reflection, I had this colour palette. It was blue and yellow. And I always thought, I wonder where I got that from. And then I looked at my son's school uniform and it's blue and yellow. And because I see it every day and they were literally this exact same tone as my son's school uniform. So up until literally a few months ago, I never had a brand.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So don't be put off about starting a business because you think, oh gosh, I've got to get a brand. I need to, you know, I need to have all of this stuff and I need brand guidelines and I need, you know, you don't. You need a presence. You need authenticity. You need something that is something people want to buy. You know, you don't need a brand behind it. So I created, I renamed the business. As I say, I think it was August this year that I did it. And it used to be called Elite Business Improvement, which was just a name that I just kind of plucked out of a hat really. And this Ignite Improvement was more about me. And by that stage, I really learnt about who I wanted to be and what I wanted to deliver to my clients. And my husband and I own the business together and I want to deliver all this momentum and all of this energy.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  So then this blue and yellow school uniformy brand didn't really really sit for that. Then I've got an amazing graphic designer who I work with. So shout out to Louisa. And she's created this brand that I really, really, truly now believe in. So that's two things really. One is don't be put off and scared to start a business because you don't have a brand. And two, when you do invest in it, invest properly, get a proper graphic designer to do it.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  I'll spar back.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Okay. Big time, big time. We do branding guides for free at First Class Business, for free, one hundred percent. It is not about the monetary investment and please don't wait on that process. But I will spar back in a way that if you did, and if you do, it's not the end of the world. But let's not turn our blind eyes at either side of that. So if you feel the need to move forward without a brand, move forward without a brand by all means. Just know that ninety six percent of businesses lose within ten years and four percent survive. And you're putting yourself in a position to where you may. You may sacrifice opportunity. I would say the better opportunity on that, and we're both, I think we both back this, is work with mentors that you trust. I know a lot of people who've been there and done it and made it happen, but I can tell you right now,

• 32:59Speaker 00

  my first couple of brands had horrific branding. We suffered the hell out of those situations. I'm not going to lie to you. Don't follow that five-year path that I was on. Don't do that. If you've got somebody in front of you who can help you on that process, then have an open mind, have an open idea like, okay, maybe, maybe they can help me learn from their mistakes in the process. And as, uh, as Angelo was getting at, don't, don't overdo it. Don't, don't just go and invest in something and don't force the issue. But I would say that have an open mind to find the providers who can help you build things the right way. That would be the, the, the caveat in that is you survived it without the brand. Other people may not. Um, and other companies.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  I'll add one more final thing on that and I'll pass the mic back to you. And that would be the Twice the Ice Company. Um, you know, I, I helped a franchise owner of Twice the Ice, uh, machine that produces ice with their brand and they wanted a website. I said, you don't need a website. I said, what, what, how, how many gas station websites have you ever been to? Um, and they're like, none. Again, nobody goes to a website for a gas station. You have an ice machine. Nobody cares about your, but you do need a Facebook page. And we can run Facebook ads through that and drive a ton of traffic and we crushed it. I mean, they, they, no, no pun intended. Um, you know, they, they had an amazing campaign, amazing opportunity. We did some local things, the local restaurants and local entities that could also come in and buy bulk. Um, but there was no need for a website. So there's, are there places and entities that don't need it?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Of course there are, but again, this is where it's like, okay, consult with somebody like Angelo has 25 years of experience or Jackson has 19 years of experience. Don't make that decision by yourself. That would be my next piece of advice for all you entrepreneurs is stop deciding by yourself what to do. Get a team of brains and hearts that you trust around you to help you build. Angelo, your turn.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's a really good point that you've just kind of sparred back with and I'm glad that you did because I want to provide a bit more clarity. My points were around inertia of thinking, oh, I've got this idea for this business and I want to do something. And then the inertia that comes with, I don't understand branding, don't understand marketing, I can't do it. So then it becomes that they just don't do it because it becomes a blocker. Mine was more about just get yourself out there and do something. The other side of that, on my side, as I said, I didn't have the branding for five years is because I'm very well connected at this stage in my career. I've got really good networks of people who I've worked with in the past, who didn't need to have a shiny brand and a logo to work with me, they wanted me. So it works because I already was known like, liked and trusted by a lot of different people.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Whereas now, the new side of my business is a new industry that I'm entering into and it's a new set of clients and it's a new, it's all about kind of online and it's all about semi passive income and passive income. They don't know, like, and trust me because I've never been in that industry before. So now I do need the branding. So everything you said, I 100% agree with. And it's interesting because my business is kind of established on one side. And then on the other side, it's brand new. So I've got two bits going on at the same time. And I'm kind of struggling both camps, both require different sets of principles and leadership and thought process. One's very mature, one's very new. And so in terms of that branding piece, I think sometimes you can get a bit overwhelmed with what you're trying to do.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  And sometimes that stops you doing something. So my thing is just do something, even if it doesn't look pretty at this particular stage. The main thing is about trying to get the revenue, trying to build your clients. If you need the branding to get the foot in the door, then it might be, it might be a, what you call it, connected piece or it might not, you don't know.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Yep. And I'll play, I'll continue to play annuals advocate on that. And in relation to these blockers, a lot of times, my friends, the blockers are necessary. They're, they're healthy boundaries. There are things that it's that, it's that feeling like I'm in a dark and a mountain and I don't know which way to go. And you got a blocker that's telling you not to move forward. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're able to get your flashlight on or whatever, you find out you're on a cliff edge. All right. That is entrepreneurship 99% of the time.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Edge and if you don't realize that and you turn a blind eye to that, you're gonna fall off and it's gonna hurt badly. And the bigger you grow, the harder you can fall, the further you can fall in the experience. So I don't mean to scare all of you as much as just validate the reality that you got an internal instinct to trust. And the opportunity is to figure out, okay, well, what do I do? When I feel that sense of like blocking there, what is it that I need to learn from this experience or move on? And odds are, if you've got one coach by your side, you you you find yourself saying, I have a coach. And just realize you have poor mentality. Because the greatest people in the world, the ones who are really crushing it, they have lots of coaches. They have entire teams around them to help them and support them. And so one of the greatest things you can have by your side is people who are willing and able to guide you.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Without stealing your vision, without manipulating you, without coercing you, without pressuring you to follow what it is that they do. You know, think people like Grant Cardone, who have a bunch of sheeple that follow them. If they're telling you what you should do, what you have to do, what you need to do. Odds are that's not the type of leader that you want by your side. It's more of the people who are willing to hear you out with where you are, ask better questions and figure out what could be possible. What are your opportunities? What feels right? That will expose the cliff's edge without pressuring you forward or pressuring you away. So you can then make a more more collectively sound decision. So we're gonna dive in to this other side of the seven avatars of business. This is something that I've talked to about a hundred people now.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  And I teach it from a humble standpoint of like, please, if you guys have heard this in the market somewhere, let me know the resource, because that guy's a genius or that gal's a genius. And it is so logical that it makes you go like, why the heck are we not talking about this more often? And I'm gonna put you in the guinea guinea pig seat on this Angela. And if Angela surprised me, she's like, oh, these are the seven avatars. Great. If not, what we're exposing is not somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. What we're exposing is a reality that somehow we continue to tolerate a ninety six percent failure rate in the market and a four percent survival rate. And we aren't putting together these super simple pieces that are a little bit complex to build out, but they're necessary for us to understand as businesses. So today, Angela, you and I opened a brand new restaurant in three.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  And our restaurant, let's call it Angela's Pizzeria. And there's seven different avatars. There's seven different types of people who are going to walk into our doors. And We gotta figure out how to serve them. And so I'm not gonna lead the witness on this. Um, this makes me a bad teacher right now. So that you guys know normally you get people context. No, we need to see because if I were to say there's um, uh, si- six different levels for marketing and marketing influence. Oh, uh, unaware, aware, considerably. That stuff's already known in the market. So it's possibly a, I don't think that these seven avatars are out there right now.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I've never had them.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Uh, we're gonna, we're gonna see. Maybe there's some other definition or name for it, but somebody opens our door to Angela's Pizzeria. What's the avatar Angela? Don't, uh, make mistakes on this. You could say it's like a Lego man or so. I don't, I don't, we'll, we'll play with it, but what, who might walk into that door? What type of avatar?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  A family man with his family who's coming, it comes every week to have a pizza with his family. It's like a little treat and a ritual.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Very good. So that would be a demographic and a psychographic, um, combined for the family man. But you said something key. You said this guy comes in every week like a ritual. What do you call that avatar? The person who's purchasing and coming over and over again? What are, what are they called?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I don't know. Loyal customer.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Very good customer. You nailed it. So that is one of the avatars that walks in the door is you've got a customer, somebody who purchases in and somebody who purchases um, uh, on a repeat. And so sometimes in other markets, that's called a patient.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Or it's called a client.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  It's called a consumer. There's a number of different, a patron, um, a resident. Those are all fall, fall into that exact same category. Number one of avatar. So customer. Business owners are really good at paying attention to the reality that they want customers. Um, they need to prepare for their customers. The door opens again, in walks another person. What avatar is person number two?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Somebody who's an office lady and she just wants to grab a quick, a quick snack because she's working late on that night.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  So the customer as well. Very good, though. Um, different type of customer. She's coming in as a customer. So door opens again. Third person walks in. What might they be? What might their intention be? Or what might their

• 41:24Speaker 01

  To sell me something. So they're gonna sell me some equipment, or they're gonna sell me some boxes or some ingredients.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  I love how many people dive into this. This person's gonna take my money. This person's, you know, probably gonna be some type of, uh, of, um, doggy dog world. And we also call these people vendors. We call them providers. We call them distributors. Um, we call them, I call them strategic partners. I'm not looking at these individuals as people who are trying to sell me. I'm looking at these people. Again, I'm gonna use the word vendors more commonly here. Um, small businesses have a bad tendency to when that door opens and John comes in, Johnson's, hey, my name's John. Um, I have a POS company. Uh, do you guys already have a merchant service provider? And what happens in the small business?

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Small business goes, oh, you guys are always coming in here trying to sell me a bunch of bull crap. I already have a POS provider. Why don't you go away? And they don't realize that John's a family man who lives three blocks away. Hmm. John doesn't have a family of six that would have been coming in regularly. He also goes to the local church. And he goes to the, his kids go to local school. And every time somebody asks him about Angela's Pizzeria. His response is, you know, I maybe it's good, but they, she was, they were so, they just. It felt like I was just coming in as some snail salesman, and I didn't really get a good vibe from this culture. And so what are we getting at with that? Vendors, they have a different need than customers have. And we need to have team members trained up with the right procedures.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  With the right resources, the right templates and the right assets in order to honor the vendors. Hmm. Because if we don't, we're just like everybody else in the world, fighting over stuff that we don't even understand what we're fighting about. And all these LinkedIn messages we get from people saying they want to sell us stuff. If we see that as a threat, we're never gonna get to Tony Robbins level. We're never gonna get to the Taylor Swift level, because how many times do vendors go to Tony Robbins and Taylor Swift and try to sell them? A ton, because they're pre-qualified for everything. And so if we as an As we recognize the opportunity to service these individuals, they truly become strategic allies in the market. So we've got customers and vendors, the door opens again and in walks avatar number three. What could that avatar possibly be?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Somebody wants to learn about the business. He wants to learn, they're interested in setting up a pizzeria themselves in another town or further down the road.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Interesting, um, and so I might box them into the strategic partnership opportunities as well because they might be able to franchise with us. Let's say that person who wants to learn about the business though, starts to ask about, hey, do you guys have multiple locations? A performer or you guys plan on expanding nationwide? What's that avatar called?

• 44:02Speaker 01

  An investor.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Very good. There's an investor avatar. And again, small businesses often never even think through the reality of what it's like to talk to investors, what it might be like to potentially expand or sell. Or have somebody come in. And so that's the one that people are terrified of so much that we're just going to skip that for now. But ultimately they need some resources too. The door opens again, we tell that investor, hey, feel free to send us more information on or let us know what information you need, you know, bam, we move on. So who's the next person that might walk in the next avatar?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Somebody wants to work for me.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Very good. And we call those candidates, right? So in walks Timmy and Timmy goes, hey, um, are you guys hiring? Um, you know, and the host team member at the, at the front goes, yeah, go apply online, just like the rest of us did.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  How's Timmy gonna feel?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  He'll probably never come in again and he probably won't have the confidence to go and apply elsewhere.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  And that's so sad because Timmy, we only apply as candidates at places that we actually like. We were already probably an ambassador of this establishment. But now you've just kind of crushed little Timmy's hearts and dreams. And while he may not be great on the, at representing the company front facing, he might be the best dishwasher there is. Or maybe he's low enough to stay for 10 years and maybe he's the best delivery driver. Um, that you'd possibly have, we don't know, but if we don't train our team members. How to support those candidates that come in? And again, what's the asset they need? What imagine your team members like, uh? Hey, uh, yeah, if you eat some pizza first, then maybe we'll, we'll give you a chance like.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  They, what are we training our team members to do in these scenarios? We're often not training them at all.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  And so the teams of the world, the, the great ones don't end up coming in. Who do you end up with in that case? You end up with the most desperate candidates. The ones who are going to be the worst to work with because they're the ones that are willing to put up with that bull crap. Um, and most of us aren't willing to do it. So candidates is none of the door opens again and in walks John. Hey, sorry I'm late, guys. Um, you know, what, what avatar is that?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  He already works there?

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 00

  Yep. So already worked there. What do we call that avatar?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Employee, staff, colleague?

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Most of the time, you know, and so if I were, if I really want to create a bad culture, I'll call them staff. I'll call them employee. I'll treat them like they don't, they're not important, but. I tru- I prefer to use the word team member. Um, and so when we, when we have these team members and we treat these individuals more like equals. And we start to realize, wait a second, for them to do well, we need procedures. We need resources. We need templates. We need handbooks. We need to help them understand the value of the different pizzas that we have and. The ingredients and all that. We've got a whole culture to build internally that completely gets overlooked. While we're desperately planning for one of the avatars that you haven't mentioned yet, Angela, which you've gotten close to. Um, let's pretend we just opened.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  I would, the only other one that's in my head is, and the, the innovators are the one who come up with the original pizza recipe or the original pizza topping. Kind of unique thing for that, that pizzeria. That's the only other one that's in my head.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  I would add them to team because we want to create a team hierarchy where everybody's equal. Um, and so even if I'm the genius behind the pizza, I'm still the idiot who doesn't know how to run the place. Um, right?

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Process. And if I make myself too important, then we're going to end up in a situation where absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I'm not going to create a great team environment and culture, but I do love that you mentioned this, the founder's aspect of it.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Well, um, but before somebody becomes a customer, what do they call?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  A prospect?

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Very good. So another avatar, because we can't, we can't, I can treat my prospects just like my customers. But that would mean that every time you come into my restaurant, instead of addressing I'm just going to treat you like you're some other random guest. Um, and I'm not going to ever create a personalized relationship with you. So we call it a prospect or we call it a lead. And most businesses get trapped in this mindset of we need leads, we need leads, we're desperate for leads, we have to and they never even develop what's going on for the customer, but they certainly never learn about all these other avatars. Um, and so because they're so desperately high strung on impressing the leads that they want to take money from.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Rather than serving those individuals and helping them have a great experience, sushi restaurants are notorious for this, as are most. Uh, you know, Indian style restaurants, most of them don't know how to relate with the market that doesn't understand how to behave in their restaurants. And the greatest of those restaurants, they train you, they help you understand their culture and the food and the dynamics. But if I don't know how to eat sushi and I'm worried about, do I have to use the chopsticks? And I don't really want fish that's not cooked. Um, like if I'm worried about that experience, I'm not going to have a great experience with that brand. So preparing for prospects and leads is extremely important for getting people to feel safe and like they belong.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  And there's one final person. So I walk into the restaurant and I say, hey, uh, my name's Bill. I'm with the San Antonio Express News. Um, you guys have a, a new restaurant, you know, who, who can I talk to about this place and interview them? I want to feature you guys. What is that prospect or that avatar?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Media and PR.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  Very good. So we got PR, media, press. And if that host team member or team doesn't know what to do, they start calling the owner, oh, hey, hold on, just wait out. I got the owner on the phone or, or the owner doesn't have, you know, nobody knows where the media kit is, that you need to have a media kit and how that asset works. They don't know how to do the interviews. You're going to end up lucky to be a footnote. In the San Antonio Express news, they're definitely not going to feature your brand or your business because you didn't know how to pull together the assets necessary and you didn't train your team members on it. So we have these several different avatars that the world is ultimately ignoring, not preparing for, when in reality, Michael Gerber of the E-Myth, or Gina Wickman with Traction,

• 49:58Speaker 00

  or Patrick Lencioni with Five Dysfunctions of a Team, and all these phenomenal business leaders that have helped us. Dr. Peter Drucker with the Effective Executive have tried to open our eyes to help us see there's so much more to this business stuff than the get rich quick world wants you to believe. And the get rich quick world is constantly telling you how easy it is, how simple, and how their one little solution. They are selling all of you vision pros. They are trying to help you make quick gambles so that you will invest in them so they can get an MRR, monthly recurring revenue, from a thousand different people and they never have to think to truly serve your needs. But if we're going to be responsible business owners and we're going to scale, then it's so important to realize that every single one of these seven avatars needs different procedures, needs different resources, needs different templates, needs different training, needs different workflows, needs different pipelines, and different email sequences.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  By sequences, by the way, you can't just write one email for prospect. You have to have a series of it. Same thing for onboarding of a client, same thing for an onboarding of a team member. You've also got automations baked into that as well. Then you've got pipelines to build out, pipelines from awareness all the way through loyalty. There are six different levels in relation to that. And then there's the actual marketing influence of going from awareness to wanting to purchase. If you were to multiply all those, I've got a, I've got a, a breakdown of these, all those elements times each other, you're talking over eleven thousand variables. And if you in your, if you in your own mind as a solopreneur, as the successful world calls, a wantrepreneur, believes you're going to figure out how to pull that off all by yourself,

• 51:27Speaker 00

  one, I congratulate you. That's a level of self-assuredness I cannot possibly attain.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  If you do it, like hats off to you, amazing, you're the one unicorn in the market who's able to pull it off. But three, if you have the realization that I had, oh crap. I should probably have a team of people help me um build stuff out um. Maybe I don't know as much as I think I know. And maybe I'd be able to to help me. My hope is that you will use this as a gift. I hope you've mapped it out and thought through, what do we do as a team? You can use this on your own. You do not have to work with me in order to unpack that. You can ask chat G P T as well. To take what I just said and try to build out something for it. But my hope is to inspire more entrepreneurs, more visionaries to realize that. You have seven relationships, types of relationships that if if you plan for and you start preparing for and you start automating around, you will save yourself time.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  You will create income for yourself. You will create a stability for yourself that nobody else has. Angela, have you ever heard these seven avatars talked about? Do you have any additions to it or any thought process on? Is this just crazy and overwhelming and confusing and and wrong? Or does that make a lot of sense?

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Um, I'm obviously in my world, they're called stakeholders as opposed to avatar. And and they are the kind of fundamental types of people that you interact with within a business environment. So, yes, I'm aware of them from a stakeholder perspective, but not in the context of marketing as you've applied it. For me, when I use the words a client avatar, the version that kind of I am more familiar with is a singular one where you really. Go into the detail of the preferences, the needs, the wants, the desires, the pain points, the, you know, the the twenty eight years, eight years, years old and they're called Jimmy and they live in San Francisco and they.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  That type of avatar, so you're really building out the understanding of the type of person that you're trying to attract so that then you niche down and then you focus all of your marketing efforts and messing around that.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  A thousand Jimmies, but then you end up with a thousand of that one tiny avatar come your way. But you've only got the ability to provide for four, even though you thought you could provide for four hundred of them. And now you don't have to attract more Jimmies. You have to figure out, well, what am I supposed to do? And nobody's talking about these other avatars. So stakeholder wise. You said you you lit, did you have all seven of these labeled out as stakeholders? Or are there any of these levels that didn't fall in your stakeholder process?

• 53:49Speaker 01

  No, I think they're all in there. There's other stakeholders as well from a business perspective, like um. In fact, when we've talked about investors in your business, but other stakeholders would be like the government or legislators or things like that. So they are also people who have an influence on your business. But stakeholders are different to um avatars in this sense because, you know, the, well, maybe the government will buy from your business, but.

• 54:10Speaker 00

  On the government side, I'll add that as an eighth avatar. That that makes sense. What else did you have as stakeholders?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  What was the other one? Oh legislators, I think I said like regulators, because in your industry, if you know, you could be, you talked about monthly recurring revenue, you talks about revenue in your business, sustainable revenue, you could have all of these great, great, bright ideas or something that you want to build out. But if there's a new regulation coming in or a new legislation coming in, it might prevent you from doing it. So understanding the needs of those individuals is actually quite important.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  One of my favorite things about what you just did is you didn't just validate the seven, you added another layer. This is even harder than Jackson is trying to simplify it down to.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Good. You were able to add one layer and I'm going to use that. So there are eight avatar layers. Is there another layer of stakeholders that that is being overlooked?

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  I don't see one. I see.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  No, the only, I mean, just like franchises and franchisees and stuff like that. We talked about investors. But franchisees will be people who you're trying to replicate all of those standards and protocols and licensing and and templates and tools that you reference, the playbooks.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Depending on on their level, right of of where they're at with things, they're either, that would either fall under vendors and distributors or or team. And we're potentially investors, right? It depends on the asset. Um, but I I can see that as somebody that that you might consult where they're built with. Um, and so that's awesome. Um, well, good. Then those of you listening, the nice thing is we have a 25 year veteran in business who was able to add a layer to our avatars. Um, and for the other seven layers, um. Have you seen, I mean, what what percentage of businesses that you've worked with have done a phenomenal job of building procedures, resources, templates, workflows, pipelines, emails for?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Not many.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  And it's not even, it's not even avatar based in terms of the volume, how many can I do that? A lot of entrepreneurs and business owners that I work with, they they don't like processes and standards and structure. They they like flying by the seat of the pants and, you know, navigating the course of change.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  No, they like it and they. Embrace that and that's the world that they love operating in. And then I come in and I always talk about simplifying the complex. Because I tried to simplify all those ideas that you have, instead of having fifteen things that you do at the same time, let's simplify that. So you're actually making tangible impact. You're getting the right resources and team behind you to deliver on the things.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  It really intrigues me. The ones who are flying by the seat of their pants because they like that.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  How many of those ones have made it to the ten year mark and are thriving, not just surviving? What percentage would you say?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  A high percentage, and I think it's because a lot of them have got ADHD, so.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  For our audience to say, you get to provide the resource of proof. I'm serious, because if there's not public proof for that reality, then I can't trust it. I can't take that. What I will provide is on my side. I said I don't know any, but that's not true. Laserway, Spytech Inc., Dr. Eric Byrd, Lewis Howes, Michael Hyatt, T. Harvick. These are, these are all entities that somehow geniously were able to uncover the reality of the needs. For these, these opportunities, because there's no way they would have been able to scale. If they had to constantly reinvent the wheel or the team had to constantly reinvent the wheel for all the messaging they get from all these types of people.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  They may have weaknesses in relation to some categories. Like I know, Dr. Byrd, as far as I know up till now, he's not scaling a big team. Right? So I have a feeling his resources for team development are probably less than his resources for his existing customers who absolutely love him. Um, but the, I, I can't think of too many of those individuals. That are thriving past the ten year mark. That are like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to fly by the seat of my pants today and not know what I'm doing. Um, I, I don't know.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Well, to spar back, the, the context around that is because of two things. One is that they get the dopamine hit from operating like that, but they've normally found an amazing partner who they work with, who does all of the behind the scenes. And standards in there. It's actual clients, so I don't really want to say people's names. Um, but they are, they are. People who.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  They like to operate in that crazy world. They like to operate as the seat of the flying by the seat of the pants because they are so visionary. But the reason why they can operate like that and bring all of this knowledge and bring all this energy actually into the business is because they work with someone hand in hand. Who then does all of the processes, procedures, compliance, systems and all of that type of stuff. So then you find you your effective partner who enables you to still continue to be like that. That's the type of conditions when they've got that backup behind them. But the other side that I see is the business is thriving, but they're burnt out. So the business is still here 10 years down the line to answer your question before. But they are burnt out and it's that at that point when they normally kind of come to me and then I can help them to not be burnt out, but still have a great business.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  So there are can be apps to what I just said. And you either have the partner or you need to have something that's going to support you from not burning out from operating at that high dopamine, high C T.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  C T. That's that's been the challenge that I've seen too, which you know, we're in Syria in U S and the integrator is that out of all the relationships I've seen that do that. Yes, that person can thrive on that dopamine and that energy, but there's almost always somebody they're abusing in the process. To take care of all the integrated details, very rarely do those people actually have a sense of like gratitude. And a sense of full appreciation of the the team members that they're they're moving forward with. Um, and I I just, I don't want to be that type of visionary. Um, and I don't want. There's another great movie on that. Now that you mentioned it too, called The Aviator with Leonardo DiCaprio. Um, and that movie exposes this exact reality we're talking about where.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  He was literally sacrificing people's lives trying to get the aviation industry um to move forward. There are people dying and he did not care about other people's opinions and he just kind of moved. He's like the poster child of the extreme side. Um, and so I don't mean to say that everybody who operates that way is a direct. Is a direct reflection of the the gentleman who ran that. Uh, but I I think it's very wise for us as visionaries to think through. What type of leader do I want to be known for? Um, what all my legacy to be? Do I want to go down as the next aviator? Um, you know, who kind of punishes and is cruel to individuals in the process? Or do I want to have a stronger balance? Um, you know, and and one where my team members.

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  10, 15 years when we're talking about growth. Are able to honor the type of environment I was able to create for those that I worked with. Um. So that's where I lean towards. That's my bias. Uh. My bias is I I want a team that loves me. Um. And I want to know that I've done everything I can for my team as well as for the market and the process.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  And what transpires typically with that is the reason why the movie The Aviator is so cool and so dramatic and so like attractive is because he's like the one exception who made it successfully to that area where it's gonna be wanted to make a movie about it. Whereas most people who attempt life that way never make the history books and they're never worth talking about. They end up burning their own legacy to the ground um in the process. And so uh branding, growth, priorities. At the end of the day, my friends, your priorities will come through your own prayer, your own meditation. Um. And what it is that that you want to look at and how you may want to move things forward. Angela, I love that you sparked me on this.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  I'm super grateful for your thoughts on personal branding and what we're able to uncover for people. Uh. Your feedback in terms of the uh the eight avatars as well and the new gift of the the eighth level that you added to that. Uh. Would you like to share any final thoughts of wisdom for those who are listening today?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  My final thoughts of wisdom are around just coming back on what you've just saying actually around the um flying by the sea to the pants and the kind of visionary lead. That's me as well. Like I'm I am, you know, quite visionary. I like the imagination creativity. I like all of that, you know, coming up with new opportunities, building new relationships. But it's like me and my husband, if you think of the book that we've just talked about with traction and the visionary and the integrator and you talk about Disney in the book. It's also in your personal life as well that you need that spark, you need that partner who is the stability. So if you are the visionary person like I am, my husband would be the integrator using that book as the method because I can go off and do all of these things to build our life and build all these new

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  opportunities in our life, but I wouldn't be able to do that if he wasn't the one sorting out everything else, you know, he does everything to keep our family stable. So I might be the one booking the holidays or looking at the next thing that we're gonna be doing, but he's the one who's making sure we've got bread and milk and, you know, the kids are fed and they've got the school lunchbox packed for school and all that type of stuff. I don't do any of that stuff. Because I do this and he does this. And it's the same in business. You have to have that partner who you implicitly trust. And also he value the the contribution that you're making. Because if he didn't value me doing that and I didn't value him doing that, A, the marriage would break down. But businesses break down because of the same reasons, because they just don't see the valuable contribution. So that was my closing thoughts.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Whoa, okay, that's, that's, that's just huge wisdom all around on it. Um. The, I want to be able to honor all of it because these are the things that took me too many years, my friends, to figure out. Um, you know, and to fully pull together and realize how it, how it all comes together. So while I love that you condition the reality that the people who fly by the seat of their pants benefit from having a team that they appreciate and vice versa. The team has to appreciate the reality of the strengths that you bring to the table.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  We fly by and, and to be fair for all of us, all of us in some form or fashion fly by the seats of our pants in life. We're all spontaneous creatures. Um, you know, nobody just comes out routinely brushing their teeth. Um, you know, like there, there's, there's processes that exist. And so I do want to caution on both sides. I know you well enough already, Angela, to know that while you fly by the seat of your pants in some areas, you're extremely pragmatic.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  About a lot of.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Balance, yeah.

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  You, you have, exactly. You have built that incredible balance. And so whether it's waiting to get your logo and branding in place for five years, deciding having the discipline nature of, no, I'm going to do this and I don't need that. Right? That is not fine by the seat of your pants. That's preparing method, methodically. What I prioritize on. And so again, I, I don't mean to challenge your identity as much as recognizing that the actions um, that you take, while you, you probably do a lot of great things by the seat of your pants. Your house are really, really responsible and how you build too. And then I've got the vice versa going on with.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  But mine's, there's a reason for that for me and that's because I massively burnt out by continuing to be the fly of the seat, seat of the pants. So now I have to have discipline on myself, otherwise I know I will end up burnt out again. So it's from going through trauma, basically, that's made me completely change my style. So now I really value structure and I really value discipline and process, but I still also really enjoy this world. At the visionary and the, and the thing, but I think I've become actually quite a balanced person over these last five years post that burnout. Because I've recognized I can't operate only in that world. So I've become my own kind of balancing act. But my husband makes it even more balanced because he is the ultimate. Stability and all of that stuff and that's never really going to be me.

• 1:05:49Speaker 00

  Huge. And that's hopefully what we've just gifted to the future visionaries. We're listening to this is the ability to realize dang, okay, maybe I can learn from their experiences on this and start to achieve that from the get go or from the point that you're at. So Vision Pros, if you've got anything else to add, if you've got any comments, any questions that you have, feel free to drop those in the chat. Of course, I highly recommend catching up with Angela and Angela Hodgson and seeing what she's up to with Ignite Improvement and seeing how she might be able to help your brand. I know I will be doing the same. As long as she's able to tolerate my, my contrarian nature of, well, wait, I want to look at this too.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  See her being a phenomenal ally by her side as we continue to build back to that avatar of strategic partners, vendors. I'm always looking for and hoping to, who else can I find? How can we include? How can we create a win-win? How can we produce more results together than apart? And Vision Pros, that includes you. Be happy to get to know you. And at the top right corner of the screen, you'll see a button. This is be our guest. If you'd like to come share your, your, your vision with us, please do. We'd love to see how you're impacting the world. We'll see you guys on the next episode of Vision Pros Live.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Thank you for being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward. This is going to get more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement as well. We'll invite people to participate in the show. And thank you for giving us your time and attention. Have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.