07 Lies in Lismore | The black top

A fresh inquest holds surprises and examines the alleged confessions. A new investigation begins, with the police work in different hands — but will it find justice for Simone? The coroner points to a piece of clothing she was wearing on the night as a potential source of DNA evidence to help solve the crime. STATEMENT FROM GABI AND GUSTAV STROBEL Mr Baker's letter sets out Tobias Moran and Katrin Suckfuell's versions of certain important matters. We deny these accounts are truthful. Tobias Moran has admitted that he and his sister lied about matters relating to Simone's disappearance and murder because the police were not taking her disappearance seriously enough. We have never found that explanation logical or convincing as he told these lies on his first encounter with police, before anyone could have known a crime had occurred. The Coroner and Counsel Assisting described Tobias' lies as "persistent", "numerous" and "reprehensible". If Tobias Moran lied because police were not taking him seriously, what possible explanation do Tobias and Katrin have for their false statements being put to us now by Mr Baker, more than twenty years after Simone's murder? The accounts given by Tobias and Katrin to us about what happened the night Simone was murdered, or about the days preceding, were untrue. They claimed there had been no arguments and all was good within the travelling group. When we asked on several occasions if there had been any fights, Tobias said there were none. We learned almost two and a half years later they were lying to us about this. Later, when I asked why, Tobias said he had been forced to lie because the police were not taking him seriously. He did not explain why he lied to us. After Simone's murder he and his family nurtured a close relationship between our families which had not previously existed while all the time maintaining their lies. On reflection, we feel we were being manipulated. Our relationship with Tobias and the entire Suckfuell family ended at the Suckfuell home in 2009 when my husband and my brother asked Katrin to tell us what happened the night Simone died. She said: 'You can torture me but I will never talk about that night'. She then ran from the room and drove off in her car. Her attempt to re-write the words she used that day is untruthful. Katrin Suckfuell has not only refused to answer our questions, but to our knowledge she has never corrected the false and misleading statements she gave to police concerning events surrounding Simone's murder. To this day we do not know from Tobias, his sister and Jens Martin what happened the night our daughter was murdered. We can only rely on accounts they gave to the police which are so full of lies and inconsistencies we can place no trust in them. We are, and have always been, entirely at the mercy of what they choose to tell us, but there has been a consistent pattern of avoidance spanning more than twenty years, evident even before the three were made suspects. For example, the three attended Simone's funeral, but refused to attend her wake — as a courtesy the siblings were walked back to their car by a member of our family as they did not want to be part of the reception, and Martin also disappeared without ever introducing himself to us. This is why we would like them to come to our door and apologise and offer us a full account. Nothing would give us greater peace than receiving a truthful and consistent account of our daughter's final days and the night of her death. NOTE ON RESPONSES TO THIS STATEMENT FROM TOBIAS MORAN, KATRIN SUCKFUELL, AND JENS MARTIN Tobias and Katrin deny that they are still telling lies, and dispute various other aspects of this statement from Gabi and Gustav Strobel. The podcast episode contains further responses to this statement from Tobias Moran and Katrin Suckfuell. Jens Martin didn't respond to questions about this statement.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Sam Hawley, host of ABC News Daily. It's a podcast explaining one big news story affecting your world in just 15 minutes. From ABC Investigations, to politics, the cost of living, to major global events, expert guests and journalists join me to explain why the world works the way it does. Follow the ABC News Daily podcast on ABC Listen.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Lots of courthouses in Australia are relics of the past. But the State Coroner's Court in New South Wales is a gleaming, modern building. A shiny new mix of glass and sharp lines in Sydney's western suburbs. In November 2024, this building is the location of the second inquest into the death of Simone Strobel. Simone's brother Alexander and sister Christina have come from Germany to be here.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  On the first day, they stand in the shadow of the courthouse and address the media about the sister they lost in 2005.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Simone was my big sister and Alexander's little sister.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  My sister basically raised me up. We had a very close bond. And she was violently taken from me. She was a lovely person who enjoyed life. She was looking forward to adventure to Australia.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  She is dearly missed by her family and her friends.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Almost 20 years have passed since Simone was killed. And still, her family has no answers. No justice. Alexander is clear about exactly what he wants to know from the inquest.

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Tobias Moran lied consistently to the police and our family about the circumstances of my sister's murder.

• 2:14Speaker 04

  We are very hopeful that during the course of this inquest, we will find out why so many lies were told and what is the truth about my sister's death.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Toby and Sam Moran have flown to Sydney to be at the inquest as well. But Toby isn't obliged to give evidence, and he doesn't. Instead, he watches. As the hearings get underway, the two families will sit just metres apart over five days. This new inquest will be in front of a new coroner, the State Coroner of New South Wales, Theresa O'Sullivan.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  It'll be up to her to come to a conclusion about what happened to Simone.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  She'll be presented with far more information and hear from far more people than the other coroner back in 2007.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  This inquest was actually supposed to happen two years earlier. But then Toby got arrested and it was all put on hold. Now, the time has finally come for a second chance to find answers. But as both families file into the courtroom on that spring morning, what they don't know is, this inquest will turn the whole case on its head. I'm Richard Baker, and from Unravel, this is Lies in Lismore.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Simone's second inquest begins when a serious-looking man with silver grey hair rises to his feet. Philip Strickland, S.C., is a senior lawyer, a barrister. Over the years, he's prosecuted and defended accused murderers. Strickland's in the role of counsel assisting, which means he's here to help present all the evidence to the coroner so she can find the truth.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Also in the courtroom are lawyers representing some of the people present, Toby included.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  As the proceedings get underway, counsel assisting Strickland runs through some of the most important evidence he'll be presenting over the next five days. He makes clear that he'll be presenting information on some different theories about how Simone died and who could have been responsible. Then, Strickland starts calling witnesses. One of them is a man who says he heard a confession.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was very nervous, but also had this sense of determination that I was going to do my best.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Heath Tunstall used to live at the Lismore Caravan Park. You heard from him in a previous episode when he told the story of how he heard another man at the park confess to killing Simone soon after her body was found. Heath claimed this man said shocking things about Simone, saying he killed her and calling her a Nazi bitch.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  The man Heath is talking about is named Jamie Vidler.

• 5:48Speaker 05

  I never chose to hear what Jamie had to say. And I was burdened with what I had been told because I believed it.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Heath claims he and Jamie were sitting down for a drink together at the caravan park when he says Jamie made those comments about killing Simone.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Back in 2005, when Heath says he heard the confession, he made a statement to police. But then the first inquest came and went two years later. He says, without him even knowing it was on.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  And then when I found out that I hadn't even been called to the inquest, it just gave me even less faith in the system. What the hell is wrong with this world? When someone has been told, has had a confession made to them, and it's bloody well ignored. I was angry and very, very disappointed.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  As the years passed, Heath says he was never contacted by anyone about the Simone Strobel case. And then, almost two decades later, he got a summons for a second inquest.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  I was like, all right, no more death fears. I'm going to be heard now. It was a sense of relief.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Finally, Heath had the chance to put his story on the record publicly and perhaps relieve himself of the burden he felt he'd been carrying. He'd never been to anything like an inquest before. He wasn't even sure he had the right clothes.

• 7:16Speaker 05

  So we went and bought shoes the day before, pants and a long-sleeved shirt, no tie.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  When Heath arrived and walked in to testify, he says he could feel the tension in the room right away.

• 7:28Speaker 05

  First thing I noticed was there was a discomfort between Simone's family and Tobias's group. There was a lot of staring across at each other. And I remember feeling uncomfortable with that.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Putting his story on the public record was something Heath had wanted to do for a very long time.

• 7:46Speaker 05

  So basically, what they asked me and what I told them was how Jamie had told me that he killed her, the Nazi bitch,

• 7:57Speaker 05

  that he was very misogynistic and anti-women, that he cried, which was what really confirmed for me that there was some substance to what he was saying.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Heath faced a lot of questions from the counsel assisting, Strickland. He was asked how much he'd had to drink. He said he imagined three or four cans of Bundaberg rum. He was asked whether he believed what Jamie was saying. He said yes. Then, before his evidence finished, Heath felt a compulsion to do something that witnesses don't usually do.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  I turned to Simone's family and said, I'm really sorry that you had to go through this. Saved me 20 years to address you and say something to you. And I just want to express how sorry I am that this has happened to you and your family.

• 8:51Speaker 05

  And I don't think anyone else had done that.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Beef farmer Phil Lenton was just as nervous about walking into the coroner's court that week in 2024.

• 9:12Speaker 06

  Well, a bloke from the country, it's just so scary, mate. It's frightening, you know what I mean? You're stressed about getting on the plane, getting off the plane, getting to your room, you know? That was a stressful thing.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  He'd also heard what he believed was a confession back in 2005, but hadn't even been asked to make a statement by the police when the first inquest was held.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  You heard from Phil in an earlier episode, talking about his former friend, Gus Parker, who rocked up at his place dragging a palm frond between his legs. This was in the days after Simone's body was found. Phil says Gus had called the palm frond his dragon's tail. He says he asked Gus if he'd killed Simone, and Gus replied, "Yeah."

• 10:06Speaker 06

  I said, "Well, you didn't hurt that girl then, Lismore, you did you? You had anything to do with that?" And he's like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Gus?" And he's like, "Yeah."

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Phil says he called Crime Stoppers back in 2005 to leave an anonymous tip.

• 10:22Speaker 06

  I thought, "I'll give it a week and surely they'll be on to him."

• 10:26Speaker 02

  But he says he didn't hear back, so he rang Crime Stoppers again. And this time, he says he gave his name to the police.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Remember, another guy known as Tomo told police he'd heard Gus say, "Police would find what they're looking for behind a piece of public art he called the devil's stones." Then Simone was found, right where Gus said she would be. Phil Lenton says police never asked him for a statement at the time, even though other people had been calling the police about Gus.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Actually, it wasn't until 14 years later, when Phil was talking to another friend who also knew Gus, they decided to contact police again.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  That was in 2019, and this time, police took his statement. This was why Phil had been called to testify at the inquest in 2024. But he wishes he'd been asked for a statement back in 2005. Even now, he regrets not pushing the police harder to take his information or going down to the station himself.

• 11:38Speaker 06

  If I'd have gone down there earlier, this might all be over and done with, you know? People would have answers. If I can help to work a bit towards the truth and give the family some peace of mind,

• 11:52Speaker 06

  it's really, that's all, you know? All said and done about it.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Coroner Theresa O'Sullivan heard Phil Lenton's story about Gus Parker and Heath Tunstall's story about Jamie Vidler. There wasn't anyone at the inquest who'd heard the alleged confession from Alan and Thomas Green. They were the brothers who'd been drinking at nearby flats, then turned up on CCTV cameras in the Lismore city centre about half past 12 on the night Simone disappeared. A witness claimed Alan and Thomas told him they came across a German girl and killed her. I tried to track down that witness, but I couldn't. And he didn't appear at the inquest either. I haven't been able to find out why.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Unlike at the first inquest, these alleged confessions seemed to be taken seriously, at least seriously enough that the people who said they'd witnessed them were asked to testify. But what about the people who'd allegedly confessed themselves? Would we get to hear from them? Would Gus Parker, Jamie Vidler, Alan or Thomas Green face questioning in a courtroom? The coroner's court could only ask them to testify at the inquest. They weren't obligated to speak. And none did, except for one: Jamie Vidler.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Two people said they'd heard Jamie confess: Heath, who you heard from, and another man who didn't testify at the inquest. If they were telling the truth, Jamie said some shocking things back in 2005.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Now, two decades later, Jamie was about to face questioning about Simone in a courtroom for the first time. The counsel assisting, Philip Strickland, S.C., was the one asking him questions on behalf of the coroner.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  He asked Jamie about his life in Lismore at the time Simone disappeared, about his relationships with women, his drinking and his living situation at the caravan park. Jamie said he was living in a six-person tent at the time. He said he was confident he'd never met or spoken to Simone, or even seen her. It wasn't until after Simone went missing, he said that he'd noticed anything about the German group. Jamie remembered two men coming to his tent to look for Simone the morning after she disappeared. He said he only found out later it was Tobias and his friend Jens.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Jamie told the court they came up to his tent and tried to open the zipper before he knew they were there.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Strickland also asked Jamie about why he'd moved his tent after Simone went missing. Two witnesses at the time thought it was suspicious that Jamie had moved his tent to a spot with a closer view of the police search for Simone.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  But Jamie said he was asked to move the tent by the manager of the caravan park because it had been there too long and it was killing the grass. He said that was the main reason he moved it, but also because the German group scared him, and he wanted to move away from them.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Jamie admitted that the morning after Simone disappeared, he'd approached Katrin Sukful and propositioned her for sex using a lewd hand gesture. She was waiting with the camper van while the others were at the police station. Jamie explained that he was probably drunk at the time.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Katrin has previously told police about this interaction. When Strickland asked Jamie if he thought it was normal to approach a woman he didn't know for sex, Jamie said it could possibly be considered normal in what he described as a man's world.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Jamie said he had a problem with alcohol, and he was severely depressed at the time. He was questioned about his movements the night Simone disappeared and being seen on CCTV in the Lismore town centre after telling police he didn't leave his tent.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Jamie said he might have lied to police because he didn't want them to know he was breaching his bail conditions by drinking.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  When he went to the CBD, he said he was probably wandering around and letting off steam, and he wasn't sure what time he got back to the caravan park.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  The court also heard that three weeks before Simone Strobel was killed, Jamie's then-girlfriend reported him to police, saying he'd repeatedly punched her in the head and chest, as well as choking her by pressing his thumb in her jugular.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Jamie was convicted of assault occasioning bodily harm. He denied it at the time, but was found guilty and sentenced to 16 months in jail.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  At the inquest, Jamie admitted to the coroner that he did in fact assault his former girlfriend, but disputed some of the details. He denied having anything to do with Simone Strobel's death. He said Heath Tunstall's recollections about him confessing and calling her a Nazi bitch weren't true. Jamie suggested that maybe Heath was confused because Jamie had been talking about playing a World War II video game, which involved killing Germans.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  It's baffling to me why this evidence from Jamie wasn't considered relevant the first time around. Regardless, after all these years, Jamie had now finally been questioned on the public record in a coroner's court. This coroner would have the chance to consider how important it was, but what she made of it would be a matter of wait and see.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Perhaps one of the most important witnesses at Simone's second inquest wasn't a person of interest in her murder, but the person who'd been trying to solve it all along.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Dave Mackey was the detective who'd been on the case the entire time, the one who'd charged Toby and arrested him at his home in Perth.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  He took over as officer in charge of the investigation in 2012. He'd actually been the one who'd initiated this inquest by applying for it through the courts. Now, he was in the witness box, and he would be there for hours because that long-held police theory that Toby killed Simone was about to have its strengths and weaknesses tested.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  The counsel assisting, Philip Strickland, S.C., had already reminded those listening that by this point, Toby had been arrested, charged and released, and the charges were found to have been laid without reasonable grounds. Now that the criminal case against Toby had collapsed, had Detective Mackey changed his view? The answer was no. The former boyfriend of the German backpacker Simone Strobel has again been accused... Of her murder, the lead investigator made the allegation at a coronial inquest in Sydney. Detective Mackey told the court he still believed it was probable that Toby killed Simone.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  And not only that, he maintained the same theory that his police colleagues had presented at the first inquest in 2007. The theory that Toby had killed Simone inside the caravan park. And that Toby's sister Katrin could have helped dispose of her body. In fact, he went a step further, adding that he believed their friend Jens Martin had also helped dispose of Simone's body.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Back at the first inquest, Jens had been deemed a credible and genuine witness. But Detective Mackey disagreed. He believed Jens and Katrin were both lying. His view was they didn't leave the park to search for Simone that night. Instead, he said they were looking for a place to hide her body.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  It wasn't just Philip Strickland, S C, asking the questions during the inquest. Toby also had a lawyer representing him. That lawyer was allowed to ask the witnesses questions. And when Detective Mackey was on the stand, an interesting side plot began to emerge. It was the fascinating story of all the tactics Mackey had tried over the years to gather evidence against Toby. Under questioning, he revealed how he'd once set up listening devices to spy on conversations between Toby and Katrin. And he described an elaborate undercover operation he tried in 2020. An operation Toby remembered well.

• 21:52Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, Sophie.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Toby told me about this remarkable operation when we spoke.

• 21:57Speaker 06

  It was a morning, Tuesday, I think it was. And then, yeah, someone knocks on the door and I go open the front door. And there's this lady in front of me, she introduced herself and says her name is Sophie. She's from Over East, Sydney, works for the Department of Justice or something. She knows about the Simone Strobel case. There will be a million dollar reward. There have been, there have been new developments in the case. She can't talk about it, but she knows all about it and her brother is terminally ill.

• 22:37Speaker 06

  Only has a couple of weeks or months to live and that could do is the money.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Then Sophie makes a proposition.

• 22:46Speaker 06

  If I let her know what happened that night, then she could talk to her brother and he will take the fall because she has young kids.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  If Toby would tell her the details of how he killed Simone. Her brother would then use those details that only the killer could know to convince police that he was the murderer. She said then she could take the million dollars in reward money. And confessing to a murder wouldn't matter for her brother because he'd be gone.

• 23:17Speaker 06

  And I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, how does that help me? She said, oh, I'm here to help you and all this. And I said straight away to her, this, this wouldn't help me. It wouldn't help Simone's family. The real, the real perpetrator would be still running around Over East. She left her number. And then I remember her being super nervous and then she left.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Toby called Sam and they reported the strange interaction to the police. This was in October 2020. At this point, Toby knew there was going to be a second inquest. Later on the day Sophie had visited, Toby says he found a note at his door.

• 23:59Speaker 06

  And on those notes, as she was saying, do you know the new DNA analysis? Do you know what Jens is gonna say? Have you thought about my offer? And then she just signed Sophie.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Sophie was an undercover police officer. Police had sent her to see if Toby would confess. They'd bugged Toby's home in case he said something incriminating about Sophie's visit. But Toby hadn't confessed. The whole thing had left police with no more evidence than they started with.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  This all happened in 2020. Not long after, police asked Toby for a fresh DNA sample, which he provided. They sent that in for testing against the samples from the Palm Fronds. When the results came back, there was no match to Toby on the Palm Fronds. But as you know, Detective Mackey went ahead and charged him with murder anyway. Back at the inquest, Toby's lawyer wanted to know why. He pushed Detective Mackey on this. Was it true that nothing had changed in terms of evidence before Toby was charged? Detective Mackey agreed that it hadn't.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Both the counsel assisting, Strickland, and Toby's barrister scrutinized the whole police case through their questions to Detective Mackey. Dave Mackey stuck to his theory and pointed to Toby's lies and the witnesses at the caravan park who saw him yelling as evidence to support his theory that Toby killed Simone.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  But under questioning, he agreed there was no forensic evidence to place Toby at the crime scene. No DNA evidence to implicate him. Or any known history of violence between him and Simone.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Detective Mackey was also asked about the other persons of interest. Jamie Vidler, Alan and Thomas Green all told police the wrong information about where they were or who they were with that night, proven wrong by CCTV. But Detective Mackey said there could be an innocent explanation for that, that they could have been trying to tell the truth. They could have just made mistakes.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  To explain, he said Alan and Thomas Green were heavy drug users. It may not have been the types to take notes of times or dates. He said one of them, which was Thomas, was confused about being in Byron Bay that night when he was actually in Lismore.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  As for the alleged confession from Gus Parker. Detective Mackey said it could be suspicious that he appeared to know where Simone was found. But it could be a coincidence put down to mental health issues.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  When it came to Jamie Vidler, Detective Mackey said outright that he didn't think Jamie was deliberately lying when he gave false information about that night, but agreed it was a possibility.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  The counsel assisting, Strickland, also questioned Detective Mackey about his interpretation of lies. This time about Toby.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  And Detective Mackey had a different view about his lies. He'd considered Toby's lies a very strong piece of evidence. In fact, Dave Mackey agreed, almost all of the police case against Toby came down to the lies.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Through the course of the inquest, Strickland raised several pieces of key evidence that seemed to run counter to the police theory of what happened to Simone. There were two separate witnesses who reported seeing a woman matching Simone's description outside of the caravan park between 11:50 PM and midnight. One of those witnesses specifically described seeing a woman wearing black and red hippie style clothes near the roundabout between the caravan park and the botchy courts. A description that matches what Simone was wearing.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  There was a third sighting too, from a witness who said she saw a woman matching Simone's description in the same area. But she said this was earlier at about 11:20 PM. Then Strickland raised the matter of screams coming from outside the caravan park on the night Simone was killed.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Incredibly, there were accounts from at least six people who reported hearing a woman's screams that night. Almost all of them said the screams seemed to be coming from the direction of the sporting precinct and botchy court where Simone's body was found. The screams were described as forceful and terrifying.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  One person said it sounded as if someone was being killed.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Several people said one scream lasted only a few seconds before suddenly being cut off.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Three witnesses reported hearing a woman say, leave me alone. Another said he heard a man saying, what have you done?

• 29:46Speaker 02

  There had been witness accounts of a group of men drinking near the botchy courts around the same time Simone was seen walking in that direction.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Strickland asked Detective Mackey if it was reasonable to accept the screams that people heard were coming from that general area around the botchy courts. Detective Mackey said yes.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  This inquest was hearing a very different account to what emerged at the first inquest all those years ago.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  This time, the inquest was hearing about witnesses who saw Simone walking away from the caravan park before midnight. It was hearing that in the direction Simone was heading, toward the Bocchi Court, a group of men were seen drinking, and disturbing screams were heard by multiple people coming from that area around the same time.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  On top of that, the inquest heard a lot more about those alleged confessions, and some of them came from people who were known to drink in that same area.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  It made me wonder, why wasn't most of this evidence given airtime at the first inquest in 2007? Most of it existed then. It was there.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  But police made a call that those screams couldn't be attributed to Simone with any certainty, and they also couldn't be sure the woman seen at the roundabout was Simone.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Police had decided that Simone was still in the park later than this, or went back to the park after this. Why? Well Detective Mackey talked about some witnesses at the park who saw things after midnight. The first witness was a woman who lived at the caravan park, who said she saw Simone with Toby and the others between 12:30 and 1:00 AM. So this is well after the roundabout sightings. The woman who said that had been drinking all day, but Detective Mackey believed her statement was credible.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Then there were two other witnesses, a married couple, who said they saw Toby leaning into the camper van and speaking aggressively in German around 12:30 AM. They described him as being irate, agitated, and abusive, but they didn't actually see Simone at all. Toby has denied he was aggressive, and says he was yelling because he was searching for Simone.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Before the 2024 inquest wrapped up, Simone's family had an opportunity to address the coroner's court.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Speaking through tears, Christina Strobel told of the impact the loss of her sister had had on the family.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  She said her parents had become “mere shadows of themselves”. She said personally, she had experienced “the unthinkable”, that the worst possible thing can become reality overnight.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  After five days of hearings, the inquest ended. There was nothing to do now, except wait. The coroner wasn't likely to release her findings for months. There were others in Germany waiting to find out what happened. One of them was Toby's sister, Katrin Sukful.

• 33:40Speaker 07

  Okay, my name is Katie, and I live in Germany, and I stay at home now.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  The coroner's inquest didn't hear from Katrin Sukful. She didn't have to appear, and she didn't. She's actually never corrected the lies she told, the same lies as Tobias, to the police in Australia or Germany. The last time she spoke on the record to the police was just three months after Simone was killed.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  I wanted to find out more from her about the key police claims against her.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  She was very reluctant, but eventually agreed to an interview over a video call.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Her English isn't great, and my German is non-existent, so I did my best in the moment and got her answers translated after.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  I asked her what happened that night.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  She told me she did go and search for Simone with Jens, and they were worried. She said they searched two or three times, but at some point they stopped looking, and they just hoped she'd come back.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  I asked her why she agreed to lie to police.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  She told me she wished she could answer that question, but she'd been told by lawyers that could expose her to legal risks. She thought people would understand that she couldn't say anymore.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Did you have anything to do with Simone's death?

• 35:28Speaker 02

  She said no, she had nothing to do with Simone's death. She did not kill Simone. But the coroner at the first inquest had said Katrin may have been involved. Like everyone else, she'd have to wait for the findings of the second inquest to see if this coroner would see things differently.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Almost a year had passed when I pulled out my laptop one morning and logged in to a live video of a courtroom in Sydney. The time had finally come for the coroner to deliver her findings. With my notebook ready to take everything down, I watched as the state coroner Theresa O'Sullivan started to speak. And I could tell as I listened that what she said was going to be hugely consequential for everyone involved. Because her findings were in stark contrast to the findings of the 2007 inquest.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Coroner O'Sullivan found Simone was not killed inside the caravan park.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Rather, the coroner found she was killed in the area of the Oval and Bocchi Court, sometime between midnight and 5:30 AM. Remember, the 2007 inquest had determined Simone had most likely been killed by suffocation in the vicinity of the caravan park.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Continuing with her findings, the new coroner referred to something Strickland had said, that the area Simone was found in was frequented by “unsavory locals”,

• 37:16Speaker 02

  and that there was no doubt on the night of Simone's disappearance, some men, including some with serious criminal backgrounds, were lurking nearby.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  The coroner accepted the evidence of the witnesses who placed Simone at the roundabout outside the park, and said there was no direct evidence she returned to the campsite that night.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Coroner O'Sullivan also overturned the previous finding, that Simone wasn't the victim of a sexual assault. She pointed out that the forensic tests had been inconclusive. She found that on the balance of probabilities, there was a sexual motive to her murder, partly because her body was found naked. And she said she was unable to find, as the coroner had in 2007, that Simone's cause of death was most likely suffocation or asphyxia. She felt there wasn't the evidence to support that conclusion. Coroner O'Sullivan said instead that a cause of death couldn't be determined.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  The finding completely undermined the whole police theory of what happened to Simone, that she was killed in the van in the caravan park by Toby, who was then helped by either Katrin or Jens, or both, to move her body through a fence into the Bocchi Court across the road.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  The coroner went further with these findings. In stark contrast to the police theory of what happened, she found the involvement of Katrin Sukful and Jens Martin to be “unlikely”.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  She added that it would be exceedingly difficult for a person to find the hole in the Bocchi Court fence in the dark if they weren't aware of it beforehand.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  And what about Toby?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Toby's legal team wanted the coroner to find it very unlikely he was involved. But coroner O'Sullivan said the evidence didn't allow this. Instead, she found it was unlikely that Toby could have acted alone in killing Simone and disposing of her body. Given the coroner's findings on Katrin and Jens as unlikely participants, that suggests either Toby had help from a local, or it's also unlikely that Toby was involved. It all amounted to a remarkable rejection of the central police theory on how Simone died.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  As for Toby's lies, the coroner stated it remained controversial what to make of them. The counsel assisting, Strickland, had described them as reprehensible, persistent and numerous.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  In the end, Coroner O'Sullivan dedicated part of her findings to a discussion about the topic of lies and how they should be interpreted.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  She said lies should be interpreted with “considerable care”. She said that’s because people don’t always act rationally and they may have a reason for lying other than trying to conceal their guilt, such as panic or escaping blame for something they didn’t do.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Ultimately, she wasn’t satisfied on the balance of probabilities that Toby’s lies could be taken as consciousness of guilt.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  The coroner recommended Simone’s case be moved to a different police department. She said it should now be handed over to the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit. Most people know it as the Cold Case Unit.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  After all those years trying to find answers for Simone’s family, Detective Dave Mackey would no longer be working on the case.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  The coroner didn’t comment on the adequacy of the police investigation, saying it wasn’t a matter for her inquest.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  She noted a comment from Strickland that arguably, police could have focused more on other persons of interest.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  The coroner said that although Heath and Phil both seemed earnest and genuine in their stories about the alleged confessions, it was implausible that both Jamie Vidler and Gus Parker could have both been involved because there was no evidence they knew each other.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  The coroner also said the reports about the Green brothers seemed to be largely based on second-hand reports and rumours. Like Toby, none had been linked forensically to the crime scene and all had been excluded from the palm frond samples, aside from Gus Parker, who hadn’t been tested against that sample.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Overall, she made an open finding that Simone was killed by a person or persons unknown.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  For Toby Moran, the new coroner’s findings were a massive relief.

• 42:47Speaker 06

  The evidence was always there. There was always sightings of Simone outside of the caravan park. All the screams have been heard on the other side. I had to live with this. Simone’s family is still living with—everyone is still living with this nightmare and you wonder why, back in 2007, why was that inquest not held with the same thoroughness? This inquest was held. The only way I kept my sanity through all these years was knowing that I’m innocent. This is just a web of— it’s like this never-ending trauma who just keeps, I don’t know, like spinning like a hamster in a wheel.

• 43:32Speaker 06

  And, you know, looking at all this evidence, it’s—I just can’t believe why we’re actually still sitting here after 20 years. This could have been solved way earlier and I hope it still can be solved.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  The new findings might have helped move some of the suspicion away from Toby, but the inquest brought no relief for the Strobel family.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  The family of a German backpacker who was killed in Lismore in northern New South Wales in 2005 say they’re disappointed by the findings of a second coronial inquest into her death. The family said they felt no closer to knowing how Ms Strobel died 20 years after her death.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  After the findings came out, the Strobel family released a statement saying they’d been let down by the findings of the second coronial inquest. They’d wanted the second inquest to happen, but after the hearings, they decided the new coroner should stick with some of the key findings from 2007. They felt the original finding on Toby was correct, that there was a very strong suspicion that Toby Moran was involved in Simone’s death. The Strobels also said the police in Australia and Germany had done a very thorough and competent job, and they continued to hope that one day they would learn the truth about what happened to Simone.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It’s important to stress that Simone Strobel’s parents, Gabby and Gustav, still do not accept that Toby is telling the truth.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Until recently, all I knew about the Strobel family’s views was what I’d found in public statements they’d made over the years.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  I’d contacted them a few times when I first started working on this story, and they’d decided not to participate. Then, not long before we were due to publish this podcast, I sent them one last email to let them know when the podcast was coming out and what the story was going to cover.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  I also needed to send them a couple of comments made by Toby and Katrin. As a journalist, it’s part of my process to let people know if someone else has made a claim about them or told a different version of the same story. In this case, I needed to let Gabby and Gustav know about two things. Contrary to what the Strobels had said publicly, Toby claimed he’d already told the family the truth about what happened that night, so I wanted to put that to them. Also, there seemed to be differing versions of that conversation between Toby’s sister Katrin and the Strobel family. Remember, Simone’s dad said Katrin told him she wouldn’t talk about that night,

• 46:36Speaker 02

  even if she was being tortured. But Katrin remembered that conversation differently, so I needed to put that to them as well. I wrote them a letter.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Simone’s parents replied with a statement, which they asked that I only include in full. I said I would respect that request, and I’ll read that statement to you in full now.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Mr Baker’s letter sets out Tobias Moran and Katrin Sukful’s versions of certain important matters. “We deny these accounts are truthful. Tobias Moran has admitted that he and his sister lied about matters relating to Simone’s disappearance and murder because the police were not taking her disappearance seriously enough. We have never found that explanation logical or convincing, as he told these lies on his first encounter with police, before anyone could have known a crime had occurred.”

• 47:37Speaker 02

  The coroner and counsel assisting described Tobias’s lies as persistent, numerous and reprehensible.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  If Tobias Moran lied because police were not taking him seriously, what possible explanation do Tobias and Katrin have for their false statements being put to us now by Mr Baker, more than 20 years after Simone’s murder?

• 48:01Speaker 02

  The accounts given by Tobias and Katrin to us about what happened the night Simone was murdered, or about the days preceding, were untrue. They claimed there had been no arguments and all was good within the travelling group. When we asked on several occasions if there had been any fights, Tobias said there were none. We learned almost two and a half years later, they were lying to us about this.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Later, when I asked why, Tobias said he’d been forced to lie because the police were not taking him seriously. He did not explain why he lied to us.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  After Simone’s murder, he and his family nurtured a close relationship between our families, which had not previously existed, while all the time maintaining their lies.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  On reflection, we feel we were being manipulated.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Our relationship with Tobias and the entire Sukful family ended at the Sukful Home in 2009, when my husband and my brother asked Katrin to tell us what happened the night Simone died. She said, “You can torture me, but I will never talk about that night.” She then ran from the room and drove off in her car.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Her attempt to rewrite the words she used that day is untruthful.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Katrin Sukful has not only refused to answer our questions, but to our knowledge, she has never corrected the false and misleading statement she gave to police concerning events surrounding Simone’s murder.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  To this day, we do not know from Tobias, his sister and Jens Martin what happened the night our daughter was murdered. We can only rely on accounts they gave to the police, which are so full of lies and inconsistencies, we can place no trust in them. We are, and have always been, entirely at the mercy of what they choose to tell us. But there has been a consistent pattern of avoidance spanning more than 20 years, evident even before the three were made suspects. For example, the three attended Simone’s funeral, but refused to attend her wake.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  As a courtesy, the siblings were walked back to their car by a member of our family as they did not want to be part of the reception. And Martin also disappeared without ever introducing himself to us. This is why we would like them to come to our door and apologise and offer us a full account.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Nothing would give us greater peace than receiving a truthful and consistent account of our daughter’s final days and the night of her death.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  The letter from Simone's parents gave me more insight into how they see the case, and their feelings about the lies told by Toby, Katrin and Jens. I needed to ask the three of them about some of the things Simone's parents raised in their letter, and tell them about Gabi and Gustav's request they visit, apologise, and provide a full account of that night in 2005. I put their concerns to Jens through his lawyer in Germany, but he didn't respond before my deadline. When I asked Toby and Katrin, they each sent through written responses. I'll tell you what Toby said first.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  When it came to Simone's funeral, he said he didn't attend the wake because he went home and collapsed. He said he was in a "ball of despair" because he'd lost the love of his life, and he said there was nothing anyone could say to change that. And then, he sent me another follow-up response, but this time, there was something different about it. This letter wasn't addressed to me, it was sent to me to read on this podcast, but it's a letter to Simone's parents. It says:

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Gabi and Gustav, I am sorry. I've been sorry for 21 years. Nothing I write will give Simone back to you, and I will not pretend it can. I did not kill her. I loved her. Those two things have always been true, even when I handled the days after her disappearance badly. I know you want a final conversation about that night, I understand why. I cannot give you a confession that is not true. I will not do that in order to give you peace.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  I handled that first day badly. Katrin and I had a fight, and Simone got caught up in it. When I first reported her missing, I told police about the argument. Later, in my first recorded interview, I denied the argument, and understated the drinking. The police were already treating it as a walk-off after drinking and a fight, and I was afraid they would not search for her. Lying was wrong. When they put the lies to me, I flew back straight away from South Africa and admitted them. "In December 2008, I wrote to you Gabi, and said I had been afraid you would blame me

• 54:05Speaker 02

  for her leaving, or for her death. I am sorry those lies hurt you and damaged your trust." Admitting I lied is not the same as admitting I killed her. I did the first, I cannot do the second. If an account of what I remember would ever help, a 91-page document already exists, and has been with police for years, together with the police notes taken on the day she was first reported missing. Our families were not strangers. In his 2005 statement, Alexander said that "I was at your house almost every weekend

• 54:48Speaker 02

  for three years, that you liked me, and that you were friendly with my parents. After Simone died, my parents reached out because they were broken too." That was not a plan to hide a crime. I am sad the relationship later fell apart. I sold our house to pay for independent lawyers and experts for the fresh inquest. My family came to Sydney. The fresh inquest examined witness accounts that had not previously been considered, and applied advances in DNA technology that were not available in 2007.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Unmatched forensic material remains. A review by the Unresolved Homicide Unit, including further testing of that material, is the path to answers about what happened to Simone. I support that, I hope you will too. I cannot come to your door with a confession I cannot truthfully make. I do not know what happened to Simone after she walked away. I am sorry for your loss. I always will be. That's Toby's response to Gabi and Gustav's concerns. Now, I'll read you Katrin's response, which is shorter. She wrote:

• 56:16Speaker 02

  "I am sorry too. Simone was my dear friend. I did not kill her, I did not help hide her. I have not kept giving interviews because my lawyer advised me not to. I cannot tell you more about that night than I have already told you. I cannot give you a confession that is not true. I do not know what happened to Simone after she left us. I am sorry she is gone. I think of her every day." It feels strange to be reading these statements that feel like messages between two families.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  As a journalist, I've had to put certain things to the Strobel and Moran families, based on what they've said about each other. They have to have an opportunity to respond where their stories differ. It's part of my job to do that. But I've ended up feeling almost like a messenger between the two families. All I can hope, is that there's some breakthrough in the investigation that can find the truth once and for all. And I do believe there's still hope. It's been 21 years since Simone's death, but even so many years later, the coroner

• 57:40Speaker 02

  suggested some ways forward in the investigation. She brought up something that seems to have the potential to hold a real forensic clue. Remember when Simone's body was found, she was naked? None of her clothes were ever found, except for one thing: Simone's black top. The black top was found by a member of the public at about 5.30 in the morning after Simone disappeared. It was near that roundabout where witnesses said they saw Simone, between the caravan park and the bocce courts.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  It was the top she'd been wearing that night before she walked away. In 2019, German police found a piece of evidence on the top that stands out to me as the biggest potential breakthrough of all the evidence reviewed by the coroner. A DNA profile from an unknown male. It's not Toby, Jens, or any of the alleged confessors who were in the area that night. They even tested the person who found the top, and it's not theirs either. The unknown DNA profile is one of the things that the coroner has asked the cold case unit to focus on when it reviews the case.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Could that DNA belong to Simone's killer? These days, police can use some forensic genealogy databases to test DNA profiles, and try to link them to family groups. Maybe that could help find out whose DNA is on the black top.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  I set out on this story, hoping to find out why police have failed to bring anyone to justice after 20 years. What you've heard is, I believe, a troubling case study into how a police investigation, despite all the hard work and best intentions, can fail to find answers. I'm disappointed that New South Wales Police decided not to answer any of my questions. They said in a statement, "The matter is currently being assessed by the Unresolved Homicide Unit, and a forensic review is being conducted in line with the coroner's recommendations. No further information is available at this time."

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  I feel for the police officers who put so much time into trying to solve Simone's murder. Finding the truth when so many persons of interest lie to you can't be easy. But I believe the public deserves an explanation about why such different information was presented at two coronial inquests, 17 years apart, and how they came to such vastly different conclusions. I believe the public deserves an explanation about the decision to charge Toby with murder without a reasonable cause. Why was the public told all of that had been approved by the New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions, when it seems it wasn't even run past them before the charges

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  were laid? In a case stocked with so many lies and lingering uncertainty, one thing is for sure. Whoever killed Simone is most likely still out there. And I'm betting so too are others who know more about the killer, or killers, and what happened on that night. Simone's life should not have ended in Lismore. People in that community felt her loss deeply. You heard from Jenny Dow at the start of this series. She's the former mayor who stayed in touch with Simone's family over the years.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  She passed away not long after I spoke to her. I want to end the story with a few words from Jenny, who said Simone's memory in Lismore will never fade. We won't forget her. It happens that during my time as mayor, we introduced the heart symbol, as Lismore come to the heart and the heart of the region, and red hearts were an important part. She loved red hearts. Whatever happens, we need the truth. And so, you know, police need to do as thorough and good a job as they can. 20 and a half years is too long for a family to wait.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Shouldn't have to wait forever. So do it right, do it thoroughly, get answers for the family and get answers for our community. And if by some chance the murderer is one of ours, we will go through great shame and great guilt, but we will know the truth. I go back to the fact that we want answers for the family. So that's the primary concern. And for Simone herself, you know, for her to rest in peace and remember her for the beautiful things in her life, rather than the mystery of her death.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  For now, this is the last full episode of Lies in Lismore. If you saw something the night Simone died, or you've heard something firsthand that could help, give Crime Stoppers a call on 1-800-333-00. You can get in touch with us at [email protected].

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  If you're looking for your next true crime podcast, there are plenty of award-winning previous seasons of Unravel ready for you to listen to right now. Make sure you follow Unravel to be the first to hear about our next season. And you can dip into the popular podcast made by our colleagues at the ABC called The Case Of. It takes you step by step through some of the biggest trials in Australia as they happen.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Lies in Lismore is hosted and reported by me, Richard Baker. Our producer and fact checker is Romi Shir. Supervising producer is Alicia Bridges. A huge thank you to the ABC staff in Lismore, especially Joanne Shubridge and Cath Adams. Cath has followed this case since the start. For this project, she's done additional reporting, taken photographs and helped in so many other ways. Also, thanks to Kiara Holshoiser for assisting with translation. Theme composition and additional music by Martin Peralta and Ashley Cadell. Sound design by Tim Simons.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  Our executive producers are Tim Roxburgh and Eric George. And the head of audio on demand is Jessica Radburn.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  You've been listening to an ABC Podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.