Anastasia Was Left Unable To Sit. Her Attacker Didn’t Spend A Single Night In A Cell.

In July 2026, Anastasia Treharne sat in a Sydney courtroom waiting to hear her rapist’s sentence. She had been through a gruelling trial and cross-examined at length, and a jury had found him guilty. The maximum penalty was 14 years in prison. Instead, he was given a three-year community corrections order and 100 hours of community service. He won’t spend a single night behind bars. It wasn’t the first time Anastasia had faced the court system. She was also sexually assaulted at 16, and the two cases played out in very different ways. In this episode, Anastasia tells Gemma about both experiences, from her first assault as a teenager to the sentence she believes is grossly inadequate. She also explains why she refuses to go quietly, and how she is fighting to make sure no one else is let down the way she was. Visit The Echo Campaign's website here. https://www.theechocampaign.org/ GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 MAMAMIA OFFERS: Get access to Very Peri, Mamamia's exclusive perimenopause series, for just $59. 25 world-leading experts, over 20 on-demand sessions, available now. We’ve sorted through the noise so you don't have to. Go toveryperi.com.au http://veryperi.com.au/ today. You hot? Same. Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Host & Executive Producer: Gemma Bath Guests: Anastasia Treharne Produced by Ella Maitland Video Editor: Lisa Chen Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Gemma Bath?

  Anastasia Trahan sits quietly on a cold wooden pew in Sydney's Downing Court. It's July 2026 and her rapist is finally being sentenced today. She sat through a gruelling trial where she was cross-examined at length about the assault that left her unable to walk or sit. A jury found him guilty of one count of rape. The maximum jail sentence he can face is 14 years. But as Judge Justin Smith SC starts to deliver his punishment, Anastasia can't hold back the tears. A three-year community corrections order and 100 hours of community service, aka not a single night in prison.

• 0:47Gemma Bath?

  Anastasia is in shock. How can that be it? The disappointment, the betrayal, the anger, it all feels too much. She lets herself feel all the feels and then she composes herself. This court, this system, this rapist, don't know who they're dealing with. She will not go quietly.

• 1:17Gemma Bath?

  I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. The judge pointed out that Justin Downs' housemate, who was home at the time, didn't hear any screaming or crying. He pointed out that the offence wasn't planned. He pointed out that the perpetrator had lost his business and that his mental health had been impacted. The only factor that weighs against him, Judge Smith continued, is his lack of remorse. The criminal justice system is a bizarre world for Anastasia. The night she was raped by this man has left her devastated.

• 2:01Gemma Bath?

  But to a judge, what happened to her was on the lower end of the scale in terms of seriousness. It's the cruel, brutal reality of court. But Anastasia doesn't accept the sentence that was given to her rapist. She thinks it was grossly inadequate and she wants the world to know what she thinks. She's been let down by our justice system. She's determined to make sure other people don't experience what she did. This is her story.

• 2:35Gemma Bath?

  Just a note, Anastasia has unfortunately been through the court system twice. Once for a sexual assault when she was 16, once when she was raped as a young woman. Her experience going to trial was vastly different in both cases. We open this chat with her first assault. Anastasia, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. I want to start with your childhood. How did you grow up? Did you grow up in a safe, loving home?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was honestly the absolute best. We lived with my grandparents and my mum, my dad, my brother, and had just everything that you can imagine as a normal childhood. I was dancing, playing netball, going to school, every after-school activity possible. Yeah, it was just a very supportive environment.

• 3:24Gemma Bath?

  Take me to 16-year-old Anastasia. Who was your best friend and what did that relationship look like? Obviously 16, you know, you're often going over to each other's houses. Were you going on sleepovers a lot? Paint the picture for us.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think throughout my whole childhood, I was going to a lot of sleepovers. I absolutely loved it. I mean, there's the whole joke of let's do a dance for our parents and see if they'll allow us.

• 3:47Gemma Bath?

  The performance, yes.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  And I think with my cousins, with, I had a couple of core best friends from very young, from preschool, that I constantly slept over at. My best friend at the time, I met her in year seven and I was there like every second weekend.

• 4:05Gemma Bath?

  Oh, really?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  At her house. And she'd stay at mine a bit, but we were there a lot. She lived near Macquarie Centre, so we'd like go get our nails done and then go back to hers, go back to the food court, then go back to hers. So yeah, I was there a lot when I was younger.

• 4:17Gemma Bath?

  Were her parents together? Were you at her mum's house, her dad's house? How did it work?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Her parents weren't together. I'd see her mum a bit, but we stayed at her dad's house.

• 4:25Gemma Bath?

  Okay. So when did something change? Was it after you'd been going to sleep over there for a while?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'd been sleeping over there for years.

• 4:34Gemma Bath?

  Wow, okay.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  It was the first time I'd slept over since I'd turned 16.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  And yeah, I'd just turned 16. It was, oh, maybe about three weeks earlier, but it was the first time. My birthday's on Christmas Day and it was the 19th of January. So that was the first time I'd been over since. And that's when things completely changed.

• 4:55Gemma Bath?

  What was, because it was her father.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:58Gemma Bath?

  What was her father like with you prior to this?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  I mean, he, completely normal. He was friends with my mum. He adopted a cat from us. We used to foster cats. Yeah, I think my mum was actually really, really, her trust was so incredibly broken because she saw him as essentially a friend.

• 5:15Gemma Bath?

  As much as you feel comfortable, what can you tell us about that first time when he did assault you?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  My best friend was actually in the room. I, we were sleeping in the lounge room and he leant over the couch and assaulted me and then was trying to convince me to go to his bedroom. And Grace, my friend, was yelling, "Stop, get off her." And I just remember crawling up into a little wall because he'd already tried to do that earlier in the night. He tried to come over the back of the couch because the couch was kind of facing outwards to the dining room.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  And he tried to come over and smack my butt a few times. And so I was like crawled up into a little wall, hoping that like no part of me could be touched and like the most protected. And then I woke up to him coming over again and then that's when the assault happened.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  And then I just remember saying to Grace, "I've just got to go outside and clear my head." And I called the police and I texted her and I said, "I'm so sorry, I called the police." And she said, "That's so fine, I'm coming out now."

• 6:19Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:21Gemma Bath?

  So she was asleep?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think she was asleep. I've never read her statement, I've never heard her evidence, but from what I assume she was asleep.

• 6:32Gemma Bath?

  But for you to, so immediately you walked outside, you called the police?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:37Gemma Bath?

  Do you think that that's, because like that's a big thing for a 16-year-old to do in the home of her best friend, something's just happened.

• 6:46Gemma Bath?

  Was there no question in your brain, like, "I am calling the police"?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, that's how I was raised. I think I've always had, to my detriment, a justice complex.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  When I was younger, my mum used to just be so irritated by it because everything had to be correct and everything had to be just.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  But I think at that point, I wanted to be a cop already. I wanted to be detective before it happened. So I had a very strong sense of where I fit in the world and what that looked like. And even before that, I wanted to be a human rights lawyer. So I think for me, that was just what you do and that's what happens.

• 7:23Gemma Bath?

  You had a strong sense of right and wrong.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm annoyed that I didn't do something sooner, but I also think unfortunately, nothing would have really come from him just smacking my butt. So I think I knew that wasn't right and I felt very uncomfortable and I felt paralysed. But something clicked in me as soon as it happened. I just knew I had to get outside. And then as soon as I was outside, I made the phone call to, I believe it was Hornsby Police, because that was my local police. And the guy that answered said, "You need to hang up right now and call 000." 00 felt like a huge commitment. That felt like something reserved for someone that was actively unsafe, which obviously I was.

• 8:05Gemma Bath?

  You were.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  But in my head, I wasn't dying on the side of the road in a car accident. So therefore, you know, I'd just ring the local police. They'd come to my school before. I'd spoken to them before. So it was a relatable body of people that I could sort of come to. And unfortunately, local police station calls aren't recorded. So that's what is really important about calling 00. So fast forward later, my 00 call doesn't really embody the entire situation because I'd kind of already burst into tears, already come clean about a lot of things on that other phone call and I just wanted the police there at that point. But that cop actually did, he was about to retire.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  He did end up testifying for me, saying what I did say. So yeah, I think I knew that I needed to call the police, I knew that I needed help. I don't know why I necessarily knew that. I don't think anyone ever outright told me that. I think that was just, I was very fortunate to grow up with such trust in the police. And I know that that's also not everyone's case.

• 9:11Gemma Bath?

  After you called 00, did you wait at the property or did you leave?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  I was outside. So it was a big apartment complex that I knew very well. And so I was kind of like on the other side of the pool wall. So if he'd walked out, he probably wouldn't have seen me where I was. My friend had come out and was waiting with me and we were sitting on this little concrete block, waiting for them. And they came quite quickly and it was a lot of police cars that rocked up.

• 9:34Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  It's a cul-de-sac and it was just, I reckon it was like five cars and cops were just everywhere and they were asking like, "Is he still in there? You know, what's going on?" We all whisked away into a normal police car rather than, you know, obviously. I remember thinking like, "Are they going to put me in one with Cage?" Are they the only police cars that they have? In my head, that's what the case was. And they drove us to a street around the corner and we just waited until they had gone inside to get him.

• 10:04Gemma Bath?

  So they arrested him?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, right then and there.

• 10:06Gemma Bath?

  Right then and there?

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:07Gemma Bath?

  What happened next? Did you have to go and give statements straight away?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we ended up waiting a while actually because it must have taken them a long time to go and get him.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  I think I just told the police like briefly, essentially to their body cams, what had happened when they arrived in the cul-de-sac. And then when we got into the other car, we stopped speaking about it. It was a lovely police officer and he started talking to us about our cats and, you know, I think it was distracting us. And purposefully, there was no discussion about what had happened because it wasn't a formal situation.

• 10:38Gemma Bath?

  Yep.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And then we went back to Eastwood Police Station and the perpetrator was taken to ride. Um, and then they called my parents and I started um speaking to them pretty much straight away. There was a probationary constable and she was the only female on, so she was fresh out of the academy. Um, and I actually really want to somehow get in contact with her because the poor thing, I think she was younger than what I am now. Um, and she literally would have just graduated, probably no uni degree and having to deal with with this. And she was her first one, she'd never dealt with it before. I didn't want any males in the room.

• 11:15Gemma Bath?

  So she interviewed you?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, she did from beginning to end. And then the detectives came in after, but she did it all. And she did such an incredible job. And I, I, they, they just said she just finished dancing to go to the academy. So in my head, as a dancer, that's she's, she was probably nineteen.

• 11:31Gemma Bath?

  But it sounds like you trusted her because she was similar to you.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. I think there were some very good cops there. And as much as they would have done an incredible job, I think they were very clever in just making the call for her to do that. Um, and ended up giving the statement. And then the detective um came down. Um, I think he was at Ride, like I think they're at Ride, they're based there. Um, so he drove down. I think my parents were there at that point. An ambulance had been called because I felt so sick. Um, and then the ambulance went. I wasn't taken to do um a sake.

• 12:14Gemma Bath?

  That's a sexual assault test?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Invested in give kit, I think.

• 12:17Gemma Bath?

  So they didn't do one of those?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  No. Um, and I remember my mum sitting next to me and saying, does she need to go to the hospital? Like, because obviously at that point, she didn't know, like the extent, she had no idea. And she was like, does she need to go to the hospital? And I remember being like, that's awfully dramatic, like calm down. But obviously she meant in the sense of of a kit. But they did take um my undies and my clothes straight away.

• 12:39Gemma Bath?

  Do you think that was because of your age, they didn't do one of those kits?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I think.

• 12:43Gemma Bath?

  Why didn't they?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Um, there was no penal penetration.

• 12:48Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  So I think it was not at all deemed necessary for my age. I think from the get go, they also saw what a competent witness I was.

• 12:59Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Um, and that I, I think that's why action was taken so quickly from the beginning.

• 13:05Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  I think if a sixteen year old's calling triple zero because of something, they know that this is going to go to court and that the DPP will take it. Um, so there was no concern of, you know, let's take you away from this situation, let's investigate it, then we'll arrest him. There was just, we're going in to arrest him.

• 13:19Gemma Bath?

  Because I've unfortunately interviewed quite a few sexual assault survivors now, but all of them have gone to the police days, weeks, months after the fact. And it does seem that things move a bit slower, it's a bit harder. Because you were so immediate, it feels like the police were able to mobilize a bit quicker?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, in contrast, my, my second assault, um, I went to the police immediately and they didn't move as quickly. It was within context. Um, but I think really I got some very good cops and I think they took me very seriously from the get go. Um, I also, my mum has always taught me to be so articulate and no language is off, off limits. Um, you know, we don't call um a vagina or a flower, you know, anything like, it's very particular, it's very, um, this happened and this is exactly what happened.

• 14:14Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Um, and I think from the get go, they saw that and were like, there's, there's no doubt in our mind. But yeah, I remember taking all of my clothes off and having to put them in evidence bags. Um, and his DNA was found on my underwear from what I remember, but they were Grace's underwear. So um, there's the potential that's like he's the one washing them, you know? So I think that kind of all got a bit skewiffed. Um, I remember three years later, I think it was, getting the call that they're going to throw my clothes out. So if I wanted to come collect them, I needed to come get them now. It was so random, it was just a day. So I just got the bus to Gladesville. I don't know why they were being held at Gladesville and just got handed three evidence bags with the nuclear symbol on them.

• 14:59Gemma Bath?

  That's random.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  So random. And then I remember calling my mum crying, being like, can you come pick me up? Like, I don't want to get the bus home. Like, you know, and I still have those bags. I just, I actually remember thinking at the time, you know, if I ever do want them to just say, hey, this is what I was wearing, um, for whatever reason, whether or not that's like a um, a protest, a piece of art, something, maybe even a dance, something like that, that I did want to have them, but they're still just sitting in.

• 15:24Gemma Bath?

  They're still sitting in the bags.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  In the, in the evidence bags.

• 15:28Gemma Bath?

  Can you take me back to that night and how you felt? Because obviously you went from an assault straight into this completely foreign environment with police and sirens and evidence bags and your parents being called. What was that like as a sixteen year old girl?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Um, I feel like I had already been through a lot to that point of my life. So it wasn't necessarily too shocking, but I'd never experienced the police in that sense. Um, I think it really wasn't that overwhelming purely because every single person at that station was, had my back. Every, every single person, all they cared about was my wellbeing. Um, and I think that's a strong contrast to anyone else's experience. Um, so I think

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I was absolutely a strong sixteen year old, but I think I had every factor in my corner. Um, and I won't, I can't fully take credit for that because it's, it was just incredible. Everyone who was around me, um, the detective came in and, and said, this is, this is not just um sexual touching without consent, this is sexual assault because um he touched a certain part. And I said that in my statement, that he touched a certain part. And he said, I just need to clarify that that's the case because that changes this entirely.

• 16:49Gemma Bath?

  Right, it changes the charge.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  It does, yeah. And, and I clarified it. And he was like, yep, no problem. I just needed to know that. Um, and he was the same detective from the beginning until even in my second assault, um, after my second assault, I reached out to him and he still spoke to me. Um, so, you know, having the consistency of the one detective uh was incredible. When it went to the DPP after that, he, they said, do you want to take the plea deal, which was sexual touching without consent? And in order to take the plea deal, I had to change my statement.

• 17:19Gemma Bath?

  From assault to touching.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  I had to physically alter this, but I had to physically alter the statement and say that did not occur. And I said, I'm not doing that. I don't care.

• 17:29Gemma Bath?

  Complex coming back in for the win.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  And my mum said, well, I, I think you should take the plea deal. And the, yeah, and the um DPP were like, I think you should take the plea deal. And I said, absolutely not. Under no circumstances will I be doing that. If I have to change my statement, that's not the truth.

• 17:42Gemma Bath?

  What was the plea deal on offer? Was he going to go to prison for it?

• 17:46Speaker 01

  They don't necessarily bring in sentencing in plea deals, um, in your South Wales, to my understanding. It was um sexual touching without consent. And one of the biggest issues I had with it was he wouldn't go on the child sex offenders register. So for me, that was already, no, that's, that's a lesser charge. Let's fight this. I'm ready to fight this. I think they were very taken aback by that. They were like, are you sure? Like, I think you don't understand. That was kind of the vibe that I was getting, that they just assumed I didn't understand. Um, and they were like, you can think about it, go home and think about it. And so then I was like, okay, cool. Went home, didn't think about it because I, I, well, I mean, it did, but I knew what my decision was and it wasn't going to change, particularly if I had to actually alter my statement.

• 18:29Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I, I'm not going to alter my statement. And that was the interesting thing of that it wasn't even, we're going to take your decision into account. It was, I got to make that call purely because I'm the one that has to alter my statement. And I refused to alter my statement. So I had to go in.

• 18:44Gemma Bath?

  So you went to trial. Was, how long did you wait to go to trial?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  We pre-recorded a year later, just over a year later, I believe. Um, it was COVID. So the fact that it was such a short period of time within the justice system and during COVID. I think we pre-recorded October of twenty nineteen and then the trial started March of twenty twenty.

• 19:08Gemma Bath?

  So tell me about pre-recording. Does that mean you didn't physically have to go to court?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Oh, no, you do go to court. I chose to testify in the room.

• 19:15Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  So I wasn't in a separate room. I didn't like the idea that.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  He could see me and I couldn't see him. I didn't like that power dynamic. Um, and regardless, I knew I would be fine in the room. Um, but that again was something I really had to fight. Like, I really had to say, no, I'm gonna be fine. Um, and even in, in the second trial, I, I had to, with my second assault, I, I had to convince them. And halfway through my evidence, they're calling me saying, you know, are you, it's your evidence, you know, X, Y, Z, because you're in the room. Is it throwing you off? And I was like, I did it when I was 16. Why would I have an issue doing it now? I'm fine. I wanna be in the room. Yeah, so I pre-record, there's no jury. So I'm just cross-examined evidence in chief and re-examined without a jury. Um, and this happened, my friend as well got to do the same thing.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Um, she was in a separate room.

• 20:07Gemma Bath?

  This is the best friend?

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:08Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  She was in a separate room. She was advised legally because obviously testifying against your own family is, is a intense thing to do.

• 20:15Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Um, and she, she did it from the other room, but we, we still had to wait in the same outside area. Um, like until she went, she was still in the outside corridor coming in contact with her dad. Um, and he was in custody the whole time.

• 20:31Gemma Bath?

  Was he?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  So that made it a lot easier. At the end of the day, you know, he went through separate entrances and exits. To get in and out, it was more just, you know, she'd see him as, as we passed, but we were never entering the actual courthouse at the same time. Um, his lawyers were the same lawyers that did the divorce settlement between his parents. So my friend knew the lawyers well and, and essentially grew up around them.

• 20:56Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, that's really strange.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Very odd. And it also odd because they're completely different types of lawyers.

• 21:02Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Very random.

• 21:03Gemma Bath?

  This is a criminal case?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, very random. Um, and I do have to say, they did treat me very well. The, the solicitor, um, oh, the barrister, sorry, was very, very well spoken to me. And it wasn't in a manipulative way. It was in a genuine.

• 21:19Gemma Bath?

  Is this in the cross-examination?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, constantly just asking if I needed a break was, was very lovely to me. I think purported my expectation of what.

• 21:28Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And how a victim was treated.

• 21:29Gemma Bath?

  Cause usually victims are not treated well in a cross-examination.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually had, um, someone that interviewed me before I went into court and asked me what words, like asked me a bunch of questions. I, I assume they were psychologists. And they worked for the DPP and then made an assessment based on that, which at this point I was 17. Like, I guess I was a child, but I, I wasn't young. Um, and then she sat next to me in the courtroom, like right next to me in the box, and interrupted any question that was asked in any way that was perceived to be not the best way that I answer questions. So, I mean, it was pretty standard what she ended up saying that I didn't respond well to was open questions. And, um, uh, there's a word for it, like when you flip a question and you're trying to get something out of it.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Um, she said that I don't respond to those. Well, I don't know who would. Uh, maybe a defence lawyer. I don't know who would respond to them, particularly at that age. And anything, I would look at her and make sure it was all good for me to answer it because she was constantly interrupting, even evidence in chief, even the judge, you know, she filtered every word that was spoken to me and spoken back. And I did not have to answer anything. They would have to completely reword the question. So they couldn't trick me essentially.

• 22:45Gemma Bath?

  So who was she? Was she a lawyer? Was she a?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  I assume she was a psychologist. Um, I don't even remember her name. I remember what she looks like. But she, she just showed up on the day, did an assessment with me and then was next to me the whole time I testified.

• 22:58Gemma Bath?

  She sounds incredible.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, it's also to this day not something I've ever seen. I mean, I was the support person in my cousin's trial and I remember saying, hey, sorry, where's that woman? You know, where's that lady?

• 23:10Gemma Bath?

  Can we have her back, please?

• 23:11Speaker 01

  That I had her and, and my cousin was 12. And I just remember being like, whoa, whoa, I was 17 and I had imaginary lady. At, at this point, I'm thinking I imagined her because I've never heard of anyone else.

• 23:27Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Having this person. I don't know what they are. I don't, I, I don't know. Um, it was a fever dream. Like, I, I don't know. And, and when my cousin didn't have this person, I was jumping up and down going, what, what? And they're like, oh, you know, it was a regional trial. Uh, even though it was technically a district offence, it was done in a local regional court. So they were like, well, we just don't have like the funding for that. It's different here. There was a, a WAZO, a Witness Assistance Officer there, but she was, they'd never met her before, which is so random because a WAZO is supposed to know from the beginning to the end. There's supposed to be the communication between you and the DPP.

• 24:01Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Um, they work for the DPP. Yeah, she'd just rocked up. She was from Newcastle. Um, so not from the area. Yeah, it was very random. And I just said, what about this? And she's like, oh, that's kind of just like a luxury that happens in, in Sydney trials in very specific circumstances.

• 24:17Gemma Bath?

  So it must have been part of the pilot trial that was happened, that's been happening for the last few years in Newcastle and Sydney.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:25Gemma Bath?

  To have a support person there for juvenile trials. He was found guilty.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:29Gemma Bath?

  And sentenced to five years.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:33Gemma Bath?

  You were 17 at the time?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  I was 16 when the assault happened.

• 24:36Gemma Bath?

  And 17 when he was sentenced?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:38Gemma Bath?

  Did that feel like justice for you at the time?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Not really, no. Um, I'll never forget my mum straight away just saying, well, that's just not enough to the detective. And the detective was like, no, that's actually pretty good.

• 24:52Gemma Bath?

  For a sexual assault case?

• 24:53Speaker 01

  No, no, that's not good enough. Um, and yeah, kind of just moved on, but it, it came around so quickly. Um, when he was released and I wasn't told. I think that was the, the most devastating part of that entire ordeal was that I was not told that he was going to get parole.

• 25:16Gemma Bath?

  Right.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Um, and I can't even remember how I found out.

• 25:20Gemma Bath?

  Because he would have had time served.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  He did, yeah.

• 25:24Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, so he, what, was released maybe last year?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  No, no, so he only ended up serving two and a half years. So, um, that's why it went just so quick. I think he was released, yeah, 2021.

• 25:37Gemma Bath?

  How did you find out? You don't remember?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  I just can't remember if my friend found out before and had already given me the heads up or not. But I'm supposed to find out beforehand so I can speak at the hearing if I want to.

• 25:50Gemma Bath?

  The parole hearing?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I remember being devastated that I never got that chance. And then even more devastated that there were no repercussions for the fact that I didn't get that chance.

• 26:02Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I was like, well, who do I, who do I contact? Like, you can't just say sorry. It doesn't work like that. You know, why, why wasn't I told?

• 26:11Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Um, and apparently you have to like register as a victim with, with the Department of Justice.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Um, which I actually tried to do for my second assault and they told me I couldn't because he's not serving a custodial sentence.

• 26:24Gemma Bath?

  Right.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I, no one told me that.

• 26:29Gemma Bath?

  Did your friendship, well, it sounds like it did. Did your friendship survive with?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, yeah, they're her children or my godchildren.

• 26:35Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, so we're best friends still.

• 26:39Gemma Bath?

  Cause I can imagine, you know, she's had a completely different, parallel horrible experience finding out this about her dad. Has she spoken to you about it?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  We don't really speak about it.

• 26:53Gemma Bath?

  Don't you?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's kind of in a little Pandora's box in the corner and we, and we don't, we joke about it. Um, like we have our own little inside jokes of, of how we cope with it. Um, I mean, she'd given birth, I think a week earlier and, and she came to the sentencing of my second case. Um, and she'd, I think it was literally, she was like five days postpartum. Um, and she turned up and, you know, she was there with her newborn, um, and her toddler. And, uh, my dad said to her, I never said thank you for, for taking care of Stager. Um, and then she came up to me after, she's like, we, we don't talk about, no. Wayne, that's in a box. We don't speak about that. Like, it's, it's an unspoken thing.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Um, and at the time, we were, we were told not to speak about it because we couldn't. Um, and I think it just kind of stayed that way. We just, I mean, we, we know, we speak about it in the sense that, you know, he still contacts her and she doesn't cope with it sometimes, does cope with it sometimes. Um, but yeah, we don't speak about any of the details. Um, I don't think it's done anything negative towards our friendship at all. I mean, I think there was a huge part of me for a long time that felt a lot of guilt that I took her life away from her. She had to stop full-time dancing. She, um, had dropped out of school and gone to work full-time.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Um, because she had to support her younger brother. Um, because her dad going away meant that it was on her now. Um, so I think there was a lot of, um, a lot of guilt towards that. I mean, my, that whole case, I think I, I felt

• 28:43Speaker 01

  my, most of my trauma came from protecting everyone around me and that's no one's fault but my own. No one put that on me. Um, I mean, even two of my year 12 projects, my, um, CAFS research project was on, um, the impacts of sexual assault on secondary victims. And so was my science extension project. It was like the impact of, um, adrenaline, which can cause type 2 diabetes in secondary victims of sexual assault and domestic abuse. And so I think for me, there was that huge factor of, of everyone around me also being okay. Um, my boyfriend at the time, my mum, um, and my best friend. Uh, and I think when he was released, that all came crashing down. And it was like, wait, I never healed me. I just worried about everyone else.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  And again, that was nobody's fault but my own. I put that on me. Nobody put that on me. Um, I don't know if that was my way of coping and not dealing with it, uh, but it, it all came crashing down. I mean, my relationship ended, we'd been together for four years. Um, my mum and I, we, we were fine, but we, we had some talks about it. You know, things really, um, did come crashing down when I all of a sudden had to deal with it.

• 29:53Gemma Bath?

  When you say crashing down, do you mean like psychologically, like you were just struggling to deal?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was like, half an hour drive meant stopping four times, having a panic attack.

• 30:06Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, absolutely breaking down. I, I just wasn't.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Coping at all with it. And I felt like I had trained everyone around me to not worry about me and worry about themselves. And I think I all of a sudden was like, hey, guys, no, I need help. Look at me. Why aren't you helping me? Um, and I, there was a lot of resentment because of that. And because I felt like I'd taken care of everyone else before myself. Um, and I feel like that caused strain on a lot of relationships around me while I was already processing something that I hadn't properly processed previously.

• 30:46Gemma Bath?

  Did you have the time and space to process it before the next assault happened?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

• 30:54Gemma Bath?

  What did that look like for you? Was it therapy? Was it talking it through with your mum? Was it dance?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  I think I haven't actually had much, um, counselling. I don't know. I, I, my brain is very zippy. It's, I've got a million and one thoughts happening at once. And I think I just processed that internally. I think as much as I did process it over the next year, it was the breakdown of my relationship from fifteen to nineteen, um, that had seen me through the entire case. Um, that I, I didn't know who to be after that and who I was and, and where I fit into things. And I think, um, I did put myself in more risky situations with partying

• 31:42Speaker 01

  and, and with things like that, that I would not have normally done and aren't me because of that. So I think as much as I did deal with it, I also wasn't necessarily as a whole dealing with my mental health during that time. Um, and I was using outlets that I probably shouldn't have been. Um, I also was dancing full time by that point. So, um, I was training thirty five hours a week and working till like three AM at a bar to try and pay for full time. So I think at that point, you know, you've only got so many thoughts you can think in that period of time. Um, but I, I do truly think I, I did process it. I think that breakdown allowed me to actually process it. I think I would have just held on until I didn't anymore with that.

• 32:25Gemma Bath?

  So take us to twenty twenty two. Who were you by then?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  I think I hadn't really figured out who I was. I was in my first year of full time. I, um, was just trying to navigate not being in a relationship. I hadn't done that since I was like fresh fifteen. So it was very odd to me. Um, and none of my friends were dancers. So it was about like, you know, finding friends within full time dance and, and the full time dance is a lot. Um, and yeah, it was kind of just navigating that, um, navigating who I wanted to be within the industry, if I even wanted to take that leap, um, and keep pushing because it, it's so huge. So I think that took a lot of my capacity. I think in twenty

• 33:10Speaker 01

  twenty one, I was able to kind of have periods of time of, of nothing because, I mean, it was COVID, it was a huge lockdown. Um, I did one lockdown as my year twelve year and then the second lockdown was very different. And it was very, you know, zooms with my friends on their birthdays, getting drunk. And you'd get so drunk, you'd pass out in the bed and the zoom would still be on.

• 33:30Gemma Bath?

  Coming up after the break, Anastasia tells us about the second time she was sexually assaulted. This time, she was a young woman on a date with a man and his attack left her unable to sit or walk. Her experience with the court this time around was very, very different.

• 33:51Gemma Bath?

  You know, the drill. You pick the couch, pay the deposit, then wait twelve weeks praying it matches the living room. Let's skip that. Mamma Mia is giving one lucky subscriber a five thousand dollar voucher for B two C furniture to spend on pieces that are in stock and ready to ship right now. High end style, zero weight. To enter, head to mamma mia dot com dot A U forward slash subscribe. You'll unlock all our subscriber only podcasts, articles and our fitness app, Move. Already subscribed? You're already in the running. Offer ends October thirty first. Ts and Cs apply.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  It was a very different time. So I think twenty twenty two was like just moving so fast and so intensely that there was, I was purposely not giving myself time to think in that, in that period. Um, and I definitely don't think I was my best self when it happened. I think I was already in a pretty bad spot mentally.

• 34:51Gemma Bath?

  So you met him on online dating?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, on Bumble.

• 34:54Gemma Bath?

  Do you remember those first conversations or?

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Um, I've seen them quite recently. I like, I have the screenshots. So very brief, nothing really too, I think they, they were just normal conversations, but they weren't deep at all. They weren't, um, we also didn't, you know, at all allude to anything sexual in those messages. And I think it wouldn't matter if we did, but I think it's just so important to note of that, like I just, I, I don't know where it was ever looked at as okay by him. To have, even if from his view, if it was just really rough sex, if that's

• 35:43Speaker 01

  genuinely what he believes, there was nothing in those previous conversations to even allude to that. We were literally just speaking about our days.

• 35:51Gemma Bath?

  The assault, did it happen on the first time you met him?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:54Gemma Bath?

  Yeah. What do you remember about the start of that date? Did you get any weird vibes to begin with?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Not at all. No. Um, we were talking, I mean, I remember being a bit turned off isn't the right word, but, and not worried, but just a bit, oh, at that he'd broken his leg in a, in a motorcycle accident. And he just seemed like he was a very reckless person.

• 36:21Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  A very, um, like a adrenaline junkie, that sort of thing. And I am very much, you know, don't see myself ever being with a partner that could potentially die from something like that. So I think that was just like ding ding ding in my head, completely unrelated to what did end up happening. Well, not necessarily, but in the sense of the red flags for me were coming from the point of view that I didn't see myself with someone like that. So I was going like, oh, okay.

• 36:52Gemma Bath?

  More like, oh, this isn't my person. Not, I need to get out.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. More, yeah, more so from the fact of just like, okay, not seeing myself being in a relationship with this person. Because for me, even if I was going into something, you know, with the guy conversation of it being casual, I probably wasn't, I wasn't, I don't do that well. Um, so I think I was always kind of thinking, well, do I see myself with this person? Um, and for me, it was straight away of like, oh, probably not. Um,

• 37:22Speaker 01

  but not in a red flag in terms of violence or anything like that.

• 37:26Gemma Bath?

  You did end up having sex with him consensually. And then you no longer wanted to have sex and you told him so.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was screaming, stop and no. Um, and one of the defining points during the assault for me was that he had his hand underneath my hair. Um, and every time I said stop or no or ow, he released pressure on his hand. So I knew that he could hear me. And I knew that he was not only hearing me and say ignoring me, he was hearing me and absorbing it and reacting. So I think, I mean, I told the police that even very early on, like to me, I, I, he could, he could hear me. There's, there's no, um, room to think that he couldn't

• 38:14Speaker 01

  because of that release on my hair. Um, and he went and got lube, um, as well because of that, I assume. Um, so yeah, he absolutely could hear me. He absolutely processed that too. Um, and afterwards actually said, were you saying stop and no because of the hair pulling or something else? And I said, because of the hair pulling, because I wanted to walk out of that building alive.

• 38:44Gemma Bath?

  Right.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  But to even say that, it, it just, just shows that you're absolutely aware that I was saying stop and no during that. I mean, it, it's, it's my understanding and I, I have a decent amount of guy friends that if a girl even looks uncomfortable, they're stopping. Um, we have affirmative consent laws that mean that if you haven't absolutely said yes, then you've said no, let alone screaming stop and no.

• 39:08Gemma Bath?

  You said you wanted to leave that building alive. Were you scared for your life that night?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  I, I'll never forget, um, during it, just calming myself down and saying, you're gonna get out of here alive and you, you're gonna either call your friend and if they don't answer, you're gonna call an ambulance and you, you, you're gonna live. You're gonna be fine. Cause I, I, I felt like I, I could die. I felt like that if I didn't play my cards right, that, that I may be in a very, very, very unsafe situation.

• 39:39Gemma Bath?

  How did you get out?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Um, he went to the bathroom. I, um, sort of just gathered myself, went to the bathroom after him, burst into tears, had my moment, and then thought about how I was gonna get out. I mean, my mum and I always had, um, a secret word or, or a phrase, like if I was asleep over and I wanted to go home, um, that I could call her and just say that. Um, or she said, always lie, you know, in that, in that context, always, you know, you're never gonna get in trouble if you say grandma's died, I've got to go. Um, and so I texted, I think three of my friends to see if they're awake. Maybe it was two. Um, one responded straight away and I just said, I'm in trouble. I need you to call me and pretend to be my

• 40:23Speaker 01

  mum and say that my grandma's having a stroke. Um, and so I walked out of the bathroom. I texted my other friend to say that I wasn't, I think I just said, I'm not good. And they were like, okay, I'm on the way. Um, my other friend, who was the one that ended up calling me, said, I am drunk right now or I would come get you. Um, bless her. She's like full, um, you know, at that point, I, all, we'd been friends for a long time, but you know, she was into drama at school and things like that. So I feel like this was her calling. She was like, yeah, nah, say less. And she did this full performance on the phone. Um, and it just helped me relax, knowing that I could walk out of there and I didn't have

• 41:06Speaker 01

  to come up with my own excuse. I didn't kind of have to, you know, do anything. Um, I'm not very good at that. You know, I can't look someone dead in the eyes and, and. And be like, yeah, no, I won't be convincing. I just won't be. Um. So I think that just really helped me. Feel like I could walk out of there, shut the door and run. Um. And I don't know if he really believed it. Um. But I also had the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he just thought I was getting out of, you know, what to him was like bad sex and I wanted to go, something like that. I was supposed to stay the night. I'd arranged that because I was on my P's and we were drinking, so I wouldn't have been able to drive home. Um.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  So I said to him, no, I'm just gonna drive. No, I'll just Uber or someone's coming to pick me up. I knew I just needed to get out of there. I dumped my stuff in my car, um, and then ran down the street and around the corner so that I was completely out of sight. Um. And then got on the phone with the friend that was on their way. Um. And my phone was about to die, actually. So I was just on the phone with them until, I think it died just before they arrived. Um. Someone actually walked past when I was waiting, um, because I was just like on Coogie Bay Road. Um, creeped up in a little ball. Wouldn't have even been that late, maybe like, it was before twelve, I reckon.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it really wasn't that late. This, I don't know, I think they were just out for a run or something. Um. They didn't look like they were walking back from the club or anything. Um. And he said, are you okay? Um. No, like, I'm not leaving you until I know you, like, what's happening. And then my friend on the phone was like, no, no, no, I'm about to come get her. I'm like around the corner. And then that's when he went, okay, okay, as long as you, you're okay. And I feel like he just went around the block and just watched because he, he could clearly tell that I was not okay. I mean, I had like snot, tears,

• 42:57Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  makeup all over my face. My hair was matted. Yeah. So I think, um, I got in the car. Well, I met my friend at a petrol station, um, which ended up being, I guess, good because there was footage of me meeting them and it

• 43:13Gemma Bath?

  CCTV.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it, um, aligned with my story. Um. And got in the car. I wasn't gonna, I wasn't speaking. Like, I was, I was like, no, no, I'm not, not speaking. And, um, they said, well, they pulled over and said, well, we're not moving then until we speak. Um. And then I said, what happened? And then they said, police or hospital?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  And I said, I don't want to do it again. I can't do it again. Um. Let's go to the hospital because then I can make my, my decision later. You know, I, I can't, I can't go through that again. I'm not doing it again. Um. Went to the hospital. We went to Prince of Wales and then they redirected us to RPA. Um. Went down to their rape clinic, which was literally in the basement. It was so weird. It was a fever dream. I, it was very odd. There were no windows. It was fluorescent lighting, like the rest of the hospital was dimly lit. And then you'd go down these like rickety stairs. We'd already been waiting by that point for so long. And it's just one doctor in there and it's like really bright room.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  And then like a psychologist is sitting there and it was just so odd. And they also didn't call the police, which I thought was a bit weird.

• 44:28Gemma Bath?

  Yeah. Also doesn't feel very comforting for someone that's just survived.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  It literally, and then I'm sitting on this like dentist's chair.

• 44:35Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  And I was like, what is going on? Um. And, yeah, that happened. Then we drove back to my friend's house, slept, um, and then we drove back to get my car the next day and then went straight to the police station.

• 44:53Gemma Bath?

  When you had that initial feeling of, I can't do this again, what was it? You can't do a trial again? You can't go to the police again?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  I, I just can't re-traumatize myself again from beginning to end. I, it's, I just knew in that moment that I was letting go of the next few years of my life.

• 45:09Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Um. And I also knew how lucky I was in those original, in the original case. And I, I just didn't want to be exposed to anything, like someone not believing me or being disappointed by the DPP not taking it or as much as I did have trust in the system, I feel like I was told again and again and again, like this is so rare. You're not, you're an anomaly. You're, this is not normal.

• 45:37Gemma Bath?

  Well, it's unique that you had such an, a knowledge of it.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:41Gemma Bath?

  You knew what was gonna come.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone was very careful as well during the second trial to not come across as patronizing because they knew that I knew everything that was going on. But I think the system is so predictable at the same time as being so unpredictable. So, you know, it felt like I was being explained the same things again. It felt like deja vu in certain senses, but in other senses, it was so different and so new to navigate. And, and there were certain legal issues that it just never even witnessed before. I mean, half of my degree was law and, um, I was really confused as to what was going on. And I felt like I was translating everything to my mom every day.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I mean, my two, two of my best friends, um, both did the same degree as me. Um. And they were my support person interchangeably. And so it was just, you know, the three of us trying to kind of explain it to my boyfriend and my mom and then just, it was very, it was a very complex legal trial, the second one. Um.

• 46:44Gemma Bath?

  What comes to mind as the biggest things that were different, surprisingly different?

• 46:49Speaker 01

  The wait period.

• 46:50Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Um.

• 46:52Gemma Bath?

  Between charges and trial?

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Even between it happening and charges. I mean, we had to wait for the warrant for the pretext phone call, um, before they could arrest him because I couldn't tip him off that anything had happened because I needed to have that phone call with him.

• 47:08Gemma Bath?

  So they wanted you to kind of call, like do a pretend call with him?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, they can't, the, the police cannot say anything to you about what they want from the phone call. They can't even necessarily want anything from the phone call. They just have to say, do whatever you want.

• 47:20Gemma Bath?

  Are they trying to get a confession, basically?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  They can't admit that.

• 47:23Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:24Gemma Bath?

  So how do they, what, can you call him and just have a conversation? Is that what they say?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. They just say, just, just do what you want to do and what you need to do.

• 47:34Gemma Bath?

  What happened in the phone call?

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Oh, on the pretext phone call, he said,

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I'm so sorry if that did happen, you know, I don't remember the night, but it sounds like something I would do.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very odd, that phone call. I remember hanging up and just running my house. It's very long. It's like room after room after room, but just long ways. And I was in the lounge room, which is the furthest room to the left. And my parents' room is the furthest room to the right. So I remember just running through the house, straight to my mom's bedroom and just bursting into tears. And my dad didn't know at that point. Um. And this would have been like six weeks, I want to say, after the assault. Um. By the time they'd actually gotten that.

• 48:12Gemma Bath?

  Wow.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Uh, the wa- warrant for that. So then I believe they arrested him after that. I feel like that bit's a bit of a blur, but it was also around Christmas. So.

• 48:25Gemma Bath?

  Because this is twenty twenty-two for context. How old were you? Early twenties?

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I think I was, I was twenty.

• 48:33Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um. Yeah, I was twenty. I turned twenty-one the, the Christmas of that year.

• 48:41Gemma Bath?

  Okay.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Um. And, yeah, I remember it all just kind of being up in the air during Christmas. Um. I don't really even remember being explicitly told that he was arrested and that they had him in custody. I remember her saying, we've interviewed him. We've interviewed, you know, we've met his lawyers and, and these, they're gonna fight till the death. They are going to fight. We are not getting a plea deal. We're not getting anything. They are going to fight this until the end. And then I said, well, okay.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  It's fine.

• 49:14Gemma Bath?

  Really? Because at this point, once you decided, no, I'm pressing charges, were you in? You were like, I, I'm readying myself.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I think I just needed to get over myself, you know, I think that was

• 49:29Gemma Bath?

  You don't. You just went through a really serious assault.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I just needed to get over that hump. And once I did, there was no other option. There was no other way forward. That was the only way forward. Um. And I think I knew that by going to the hospital as well. I knew that I was just gathering evidence to ensure when, when my brain clicked in twenty-four hours and, and I had a second to, I don't want to say get over it, but, um, to process it, that I was going to be going to the police. Um.

• 50:00Gemma Bath?

  Well, it took four years, if I'm right, for, to actually go to trial.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yes, he kept getting hit by cars.

• 50:06Gemma Bath?

  What?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So every time we

• 50:08Gemma Bath?

  That is not what I was expecting you to say.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So every time, not every time, there was like two times that it was, we were either a week out. One time, it was the Friday and it was like four P M. And the trial was supposed to start on the Monday morning. They got the call saying it's been adjourned.

• 50:26Gemma Bath?

  He's in hospital.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Got hit by a car.

• 50:29Gemma Bath?

  What? Like you said before, you know, you do have to kind of put your life on hold while waiting for this to happen. What was that wait for you like?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, for me, it wasn't even necessarily the wait within itself. Um. You definitely put your trauma at processing on hold.

• 50:48Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Not your trauma on hold, but, but the processing of it. I was determined to not let it affect my life. Um. But that being said, having the trials adjourned so close to them meant, you know, myself and there was like four or five witnesses in the trial, which is very unusual for a sexual assault. Um. All took three weeks off work.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  And then, you know, Friday, the day before, I can't get my work back.

• 51:20Gemma Bath?

  Oh, my God.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Um. The friend that picked me up had taken three weeks of annual leave. Can't get that back. Um. And that had happened twice. So by that point, it was, I, I was asking questions of, well, you know, do I get reimbursed?

• 51:36Gemma Bath?

  My work?

• 51:37Speaker 01

  My, and they said, well, no, you're not testifying. So no, and I said, well, but you, I had to take this time off or I could be arrested is what the, you know, what the subpoena says. So what does that look like in terms of myself and my four or five friends? Not all of them I was still speaking to, but what does that look like for all of us that are testifying? And you've just messed over for the second time. Um. Luckily, my main job, I, I, it just meant that I just was working, but I'd still taken off like my teaching work. Um. And also just like the mental preparation for it.

• 52:13Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Um. And we're not talking, it's adjourned by, by a few weeks, a month. We're talking six months.

• 52:19Gemma Bath?

  Oh, my God. And that mental preparation shouldn't be underestimated.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:24Gemma Bath?

  To have to gear yourself up, to remember the night over and over in your head. That's a long time between to remember the intricacies of a night.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And you have to remember the intricacies. Like I was caught up on one tiny detail that I genuinely didn't remember because it was three years ago. Of whether or not at one very specific point during the alleged assault that it, I was, if he was on his knees or if he was standing next to the bed. But like either he was just on the edge of the bed on his knees or he was standing next to the bed.

• 52:54Gemma Bath?

  That's so specific.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  And she said, well, you've just said something different to what was in your state.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  But my statement was like 10 pages long and I had four of them. And then I had the pretext phone call as well. So it was just one tiny part. There were four charges of sexual assault.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it, it was one small. I think that was the only thing that was kind of torn apart in that sense. And she just, she tore to shreds.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And I just remember being like, does it matter?

• 53:29Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  If this is all the defence you have, then I guess that speaks to itself.

• 53:36Gemma Bath?

  Was that the worst part of your cross-examination?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I was on the stand for four or five days. I was recalled to the stand after I was dismissed. And I remember coming off the stand saying, I'm not done. And the detective admitted that behind my back, she was like, what is she on about? Obviously she's done. And I was like, no, I'm not. Not everything's been covered. I'm not done. There's no way I'm going to be recalled. We're going to be recalled. And then I was halfway through auditions at the studio and they got the call, you need to be here in 10.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  You're getting recalled to the stand. And then the detective said to me, I have to apologise. I'm so sorry. I, that doesn't happen, you know, I just assumed and you, but you knew, you knew you were getting recalled. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I wasn't done.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  I, my medical records were pulled apart. I mean, I was questioned about a UTI that I had when I was in year five.

• 54:28Gemma Bath?

  Year five?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was trying to compare my vaginal pain post-assault to the UTI that I had when I was in year five.

• 54:36Gemma Bath?

  Let's talk about the pain post-assault because it was really serious, wasn't it? You had quite a lot of injuries.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had anal tearing. I'll never forget the first time I went to the bathroom after. Nobody warned me. I mean, I think it seems pretty obvious, but I just didn't think about it. And, I mean, I've never given birth, but I feel like I could.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  It did felt like what I think it would feel like. As much as I can kind of make that comparison, it was just nothing I'd ever felt before.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  So immediate, so agonising to use the bathroom after that. It was just, it was horrific. I had some vaginal bruising, but it wasn't allowed to be used in the trial.

• 55:23Gemma Bath?

  Why?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I'm not a hundred percent sure. There's a few different aspects that come into it. I had hurt my shoulder quite badly. I have Ellis Danlos syndrome, so I'm very hypermobile.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And I'd had a few shoulder dislocations, so it had put my shoulder in a really horrific spot when I was in prone position. And the pressure that was on my shoulder from me trying to push my own body up. So my shoulder was in agonising pain, my neck.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  I, I felt very, very sick afterwards. And we weren't sure if it was from choking, because I'd been given like a pamphlet that said if you get any of these symptoms, and it was sort of all of those symptoms, like the dizziness. I felt so nauseous.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  My vision was a bit blurry. And so I went back to the hospital with my other friend after the fact. And they did like a head CT and I was, they said I was okay. But I think it was the PEP, the anti-Aide medication that I had to take afterwards that made me so ill.

• 56:31Gemma Bath?

  Right.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  So I remember at the police station and just, obviously I also was under a lot of stress, but I was just so sick. Like I'm not a nauseous person. I don't, I don't vomit. I don't, yeah, so I'm so scared of it. I won't. So I, I remember being so nauseous. And yeah, the only thing I can kind of pin that on is, is the anti-Aides medication that I had to take.

• 56:56Gemma Bath?

  When you compare that cross-examination you had in your second trial to the first, was it chalk and cheese?

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, not comparable. It was, it was horrific. She was trying to pin me as a liar because I had been speaking to two guys that I was talking to and telling them lies about where I was that day. Because why would I tell two guys that I'm going to see or seeing?

• 57:25Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  That I'm going to a guy's house? So I had told one of them that I was going to the studio and one of them that I was going to dinner with my friend in Coogee. And that friend ended up basically being the same one that picked me up. So then I did tell a handful of lies sort of before we got to the hospital of, oh, we met at Coogee pub. And then we went back together, like that's how we got here. And then the minute that I was alone with the police, I said, I lied. Here's what I lied about.

• 57:56Gemma Bath?

  They're also really white lies. You were dating.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, but that was, I mean, it was tricky because so much was off limits in the trial. But they were clearly trying to get me to admit that. So that then it could open the can of worms up of my sexual history.

• 58:11Gemma Bath?

  They also tried to use his hair pull, the hair pulling in the defence, didn't they?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  No, my, well, not my lawyer, but the state, the DPP, the Crown, asked me to show where he had pulled my hair. And I must have just looked absolutely gobsmacked because I, I was shaking and I was like, looking at the judge and looking, like, are you going to make me do? And then the judge stepped in and said, absolutely not. You are not, do not make her do that.

• 58:43Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  That is absurd.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And, I mean, I would say my evidence in chief was probably my weakest point. I think I was just, it was a lot harder to relive this one than it was to relive the first one. I think the extent of it, the, how much pain I was enduring, the length of it. It was really hard to relive it. I think by the time I got to cross-examination, I knew I was telling the truth. And I knew that that's all that mattered and that she was not going to break me. And I think it really, really bothered her that she could not break me.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  And I, I remember looking over to, you know, like after a couple of remarks. I mean, I wasn't being snarky. I wasn't. I was just coming back to things that were stupid and things that you can't play me. You know, she, she said, well, do you know what teams were playing in the grand final that night? No, I don't. It was three years ago because your client keeps getting hit by a car. But anyway, she said, well, I do. And I was like, okay, tell us then. Again, I'm in the room, you know, this is a very unique, the jury's sitting right there. This is a very unique setting. She goes, I know, this is Penrith versus the Panthers. The whole, the whole room is dead stuff. They're the same team. Like it's the Penrith Panthers.

• 1:00:07Gemma Bath?

  I, it took me a while there. I'm not a sports fan, but.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  No, but I was just like, what? No, I'm just looking, I felt like I was on the office. I was just looking at the judge and like, I'm looking at some of the jury members and we're all just, and my friend's in the back like, what? And then the judge is just like, um, they're the same team.

• 1:00:24Gemma Bath?

  Oh my god.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And she was like, oh, oh, okay, right. And then even another point, she said, well, when you were, you know, lying about saying that you were going to dinner with your friend Katie. And then I let her go on this whole spiel about Katie. It was like, I reckon she was speaking for five minutes. And then at the end I said, I'm so sorry, I don't know a Katie.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Because it was Grace that I'd said, but I just let her, I just let her speak. I just let, I said, I'm so sorry, I don't know a Katie. And she said, oh, Grace, what did I mean? And then the judge was like, you said Katie. And then one of the jurors went, mm-hmm.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  It was just comedic at some points because I just don't understand. I think she was just getting really flustered that she thought she was going to break me on the lying. And the DPP said to me, you, you just owned it. You, you came in from the get-go and said I lied.

• 1:01:19Gemma Bath?

  But you also have a confidence about you.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I lied.

• 1:01:23Gemma Bath?

  That is unbreakable.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I lied, I. Yeah.

• 1:01:26Gemma Bath?

  At this point, had you been studying criminology as well? Do you think that helped you?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Not in the case of the room, not really, no. I think if you were studying psychology, you'd probably have a better idea. Um, even if you were studying law, you wouldn't necessarily have that idea. Um, because it, it comes from interactions with people, I think. And yeah, I'm just not gonna, like, you know, you can't manipulate me. I think that she, she was just getting really flustered by that and she was like stammering her words at different points. And, and I just was not breaking. Every question was clearly just trying to break me down to the point where I came out. I genuinely think that his lawyers, both female, did not believe me.

• 1:02:09Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  And I think it was evident that they didn't. And that they were defending their client from the perspective that they didn't, they were not just doing a job, from my perspective. I think it's very different in contrast to the first assault where everyone knew something happened. And that something regardless was disgusting. And that was already accepted. Um, whether it was legally accepted or not at that point, technically it wasn't, it was kind of a mutual understanding that this guy is not good. It's just to what extent are we trying to prove that legally? Um, and it was very evident in this case to, in from my perspective and, and my opinion of being in the room.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  I think also being in the room, you can pick up on a lot of things that you can't necessarily pick up from being in, um, the video chat link. But even my friends, it was great to have them in there with such incredible knowledge and experience to then be able to bounce off them later. Cause there's no one else that's allowed in the room, it's closed court. So then to be able to say, well, did you pick up on this? Did you pick up on this? What was that? To have them was great because I could immediately go outside and be like, that was weird, wasn't it? That was, and they understand that.

• 1:03:19Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, you have someone to debrief with.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And someone to also help take the load of passing that on to other people outside.

• 1:03:26Gemma Bath?

  True.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Um, the only time I, I broke down was when I heard the pretext phone call. Cause I just, it's one of those moments in my life that I can pinpoint exactly how I felt internally. And I just have such a distinct memory of how that felt. And hearing my voice just crackle and break on that call, I just, I broke, like, that was the only time I ever think I properly called a break. I went outside and I broke down. Um, and I mean, in the, the first trial, actually, my triple zero call was the one that broke me too. I think it's, it's hearing you back then and hearing.

• 1:04:03Gemma Bath?

  In that moment.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And hearing who I, I mean, I thought I was king of the world at 19, but I, I did not know anything. Um, didn't know shit. So, sorry.

• 1:04:13Gemma Bath?

  You're allowed to swear on this podcast.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't know anything. Um, I was a little baby. And so I think just going back and hearing the innocence in my voice and hearing the pain. And I just wanna go back and squeeze her and give her a big hug. So I think that's what's really heartbreaking. Um, you know, you're not in the, the position where you're seeing photos of you at that age. Uh, so I think, you know, the, the voice is the only thing you kind of have to go, whoa.

• 1:04:38Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  I, I'm not who I was then and I can protect myself now, but I couldn't protect myself then. And I think that's what was so heartbreaking about hearing that phone call.

• 1:04:47Gemma Bath?

  How long was the trial in the end? If you were on the stand, three weeks.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is quite a long sexual assault trial.

• 1:04:52Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, that is enormous.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was Monday to like the three week Wednesday. And then we had a one day off and then we came back for the custodial hearing or something like that. Um, and that was whether or not he was gonna be held in custody until sentencing.

• 1:05:09Gemma Bath?

  And was he?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:11Gemma Bath?

  By the end of the trial, did you have an inkling what the sentence might be?

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  By the custodial hearing, we did, or whatever it's called. By that point, we did because it, it was said, I'm not confident. The judge said, I'm not confident that he will be given a term of full term imprisonment. So I'm not gonna put him in prison now.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  So that, it was my understanding that the guilty verdict, verdict occurred and he was to be taken away in cuffs. That, that was my understanding. And I was very confused when that was not the case. I mean, the, the defence attorney said, well, I'm just not, I wasn't prepared, as you can understand. Um, Your Honour, I, I wasn't prepared for a guilty verdict. So I'm, I haven't prepared anything for the, um, the, like, you know, the, the custody, custody hearing. I, I haven't prepared anything for that. Cause I, I wasn't expecting that. And I'm just sitting there going, what? What do you mean? Why are we giving you lenience for a lack of preparation? Is that not your job? Is that not what he's paying you hundreds of thousands of dollars to do?

• 1:06:10Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  To be prepared?

• 1:06:12Gemma Bath?

  Because there were four charges.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Gemma Bath?

  He was found guilty of one.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Of the third count, yeah.

• 1:06:16Gemma Bath?

  And then it ended up that he didn't get a custodial sentence. It was confirmed.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, look, we had three sentencing hearings.

• 1:06:27Gemma Bath?

  Wow.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Which is a lot.

• 1:06:28Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Um, and they were all very spread out. I mean, my victim impact statement was read almost a year earlier than what he, when he was sentenced.

• 1:06:37Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Gemma Bath?

  Hang on.

• 1:06:42Gemma Bath?

  Between the trial and sentencing, there was a year?

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Well, this, the trial was August of last year. I read my victim impact statement end of last year. And then the sentencing was, yeah, so it was like eight months. Sentencing was July.

• 1:06:58Gemma Bath?

  Recently.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Gemma Bath?

  That is enormous.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was pushed back to March originally. And that was just another hearing in March. And then in March, it got delayed again. And it's not like it's being delayed, like we're going into court. I read my victim impact statement and then it was delayed again, like from then on. Even between the last two sentencing hearings, it was two weeks again. And I was just grateful that it was only two weeks. And that was just because the judge said he needed to go over the materials. So then we had to reconvene in two weeks.

• 1:07:28Gemma Bath?

  Up next, Anastasia tells us why she's trying to change the conversation and hopefully one day the sentences for other victim survivors.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  In my first case, it was done in one day sentencing from beginning to end. I read my victim impact statement. We went away for three hours while the judge went through the case and then came back.

• 1:07:45Gemma Bath?

  Do you think that was because it was a juvenile trial? Or just a different time?

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Just a different judge.

• 1:07:52Gemma Bath?

  Different case, different judge. He ended up getting no jail time, a three year community corrections order. And a hundred hours of community service. What was your reaction to that?

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Um, I was being well prepared for that.

• 1:08:09Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  I think that's something that wasn't necessarily covered in the media of that, unfortunately, that's what the DPP was expecting. Um, we, from the minute that we had that just post-trial hearing, it was like, I don't see him getting custodial sentence. Um, it hadn't quite been explained to me the difference between a CCO, um, a community corrections order and an ICO. Um, and that ICOs were not, no longer available for sexual assault cases because it's not deemed, um, an appropriate sentence.

• 1:08:42Gemma Bath?

  What's an ICO for our listeners?

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Intensive Corrections Order. It's essentially home detention. Um, and a CCO is just a community corrections order. And the Liberal Government put in that the, that an ICO is not available for serious sexual offences. Um, because it is not a serious enough punishment. Uh, now there, there's the loophole of a CCO and it's only really become evident in my case and Kramer. Um, that this loophole is being abused. I was explained by the DPP and the Attorney General, um, also was like, yeah, that's the example that I know. Of that the only reason that loophole exists is for very unique circumstances where, say, a 15 and a 16 year old are in a relationship.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  The parents report it and the 16 year old, uh, both of them go, hang on, no, no, this was actually consensual. Obviously it's technically not, but we're three months apart in age, you know what I mean? And, and we just happened to be over tho- those ages and the police go, well, it's a child sex offence, we have to proceed. And the parents go, no, no, no, don't do that anymore. And then they would have had, they would have to send him to jail. If that was the case, if there was no loophole, whereas the, the CCO exists for circumstances like that. Where he will then be given a nine month community corrections order.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Because no one actually was necessarily hurt and things were withdrawn, but the police had to proceed legally.

• 1:10:15Gemma Bath?

  And instead it's being used in cases like this.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'll be Kramer as well, yeah.

• 1:10:20Gemma Bath?

  I know that you say you were expecting the sentence, but what about, you know, when a sentence is given, the judge gives his reasons?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:28Gemma Bath?

  Listening to the reasons for him saying things like it's on the low end of offending. And that perhaps he thought when pulling your hair, that you were saying no to the hair pulling, things like that. What was that like?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I really saw for a second there that it was gonna be fine. I think when the media presence was quite obvious, his words changed and his language changed. And I thought, no, we, we might, we might be okay. We maybe will get like nine months. Like we, it might, might be. And the DPP were like, no, don't get ahead of yourself, but.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  I really did think, he even asked, he said, well, where do your arguments sit with, where do your arguments sit with deterrence? You know, the judge said that to the defence and she had nothing. She had nothing to give and I'm, I'm looking at my, you know, support people. I mean, I, I always have like 20 people behind me. It was just, it was the bus. We were joking when the judge said the next sentencing hearing might be out in Penrith, that we would have to hire a bus to get everyone there. Um, but yeah, it, it, the fact that the judge said that and she had nothing. And I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe, you know? Um, it, even within that sentencing hearing, that was the second last one. Well, it was really the last sentencing hearing and then the, the final one was just a sentencing.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Um, and the judge was doing majority of, of the defence's work for them, in my opinion. They, they barely spoke, you know? He was kind of finishing her sentences for her when she was stumbling and, and things like that. Anyway, fast forward to the last one and, and everything changed. I, I don't cry and I, I'm such a big cry, that's such a lie. I don't cry in front of people. I don't, um, break down. I mean, the only time I cried during the trial was when I heard that pretext phone call within the, the whole three weeks. Obviously I cry when I went home, but in front of people. Um, and I was sobbing and I remember my boyfriend being like, we're leaving. I'm, I need to get you out of here. I can't, you can't be in here right now. And I was like, I have to listen to every second of this.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  I can't, I'll regret it if I don't. But it was just so dehumanising to hear him speak about the assault. Use cherry pick parts of my statement that worked for him and he thought he believed. It felt like a game of what he believed, the judge, out of my testimony and not what the jury unanimously decided. He essentially accused me of lying up there and said, well, you know, the, the victim has said it was 30 minutes and I just don't believe that was the case. But the thing is that I'd said that the whole assault went for 30 minutes and the whole alleged assault went for 30 minutes and he was only convicted of one of those four counts.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  So at no point did I stand up there and say this one count was 30 minutes. I didn't. So that was taken completely out of context and in fact was a lie on his behalf because that is not correct. Whether or not he lied on purpose or he didn't know, I don't know, but it's his job to know. He's a judge. He's one of the most, uh, you know, the highest professions that we see in our society. So there are very limited excuses for missing things like that. And to say in his opinion, this is of the lowest level of sexual assault because it started consensually.

• 1:14:01Gemma Bath?

  Is that why?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Well, that, that was one of his reasonings, which it's my understanding is not a law.

• 1:14:07Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  That is not the case. I, I could be incorrect, but even if it was, it doesn't matter. I think it felt like because I was not raped at gunpoint behind a dumpster by someone I didn't know, that my experience was being validated.

• 1:14:24Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  And he was just constantly using this low level. Now, I, I've done enough study to know what judicial discretion is and the importance of discretion within policing and within everything. We, we cannot remove discretion. It, it would be the breakdown of our society. But who are we giving the power to within our society to use said discretion? We have to trust that that discretion will be used correctly and it's not being. I mean, I know I had my petition out to end community service for sexual assault. But that's not the point of the law. The point of the law is not to remove options like that. Because then it becomes, well, what does, what are we defined serious as?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  He said mine wasn't. So then where, where do we go from there? And it, it's reviewing who has the power and the use of discretion? And do we wholeheartedly trust the people that we have given such discretion to? And is their discretion correct? And therefore is their discretion being reviewed by the right people post that? That it's not.

• 1:15:35Gemma Bath?

  I know you said you cried in that moment, but now I just see a fire in your eyes. I think they messed with the wrong person.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  They absolutely did. Yeah, they fucked with the wrong bitch, that's for sure. Um, my mum always says that. I think I don't ever want to come across as, as anybody is lesser than somebody else because they've dealt with something differently. I think, I don't necessarily think it's healthy, the way I deal with things. I, I, I'll be the first to admit that. I don't necessarily think that channeling, you know, the three hours that I get at home after work into building the Echo campaign, instead of probably what I should be going to is psychology sessions. I don't necessarily think that's the most healthy thing that I could be doing.

• 1:16:16Gemma Bath?

  This is your version of psychology sessions. And for listeners, the Echo campaign is what you've built to kind of elevate people's stories. Am I right?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's my, I've, I've ended up registering it as a charity. Um, and yeah, it's, it's sort of a platform that I wanted to officially create something that I could build my advocacy on, rather than kind of not knowing what I was doing. I went, you know, and I'm going to do this properly. Um, and having absolutely no idea what I'm doing, um, struggled to even file my own taxes. Um, to, you know, writing a constitution to register a charity. It was just like this whirlwind. Um, and I remember getting in a room with my team after and then being like, okay, so we've got to, we've got to register and we've got to, I was like, oh, I did that like six months ago.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  I didn't, yeah, I registered like as an incorporated, like association. And everyone was like, what? That's like not normal. Usually you wait a bit for that, you know, but I just got the ball rolling. Um, and yeah, I just think there's no right way to process this. And I think if you're sitting at home and you're just trying to survive every day, you are just as strong as the person next to you. I think I'm in a very unique situation where not only can I speak out because my job allows me to, it's not jeopardising that. Um, my, I, I am safe. I am, um, confident in doing that. That's within itself very unique.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Um, but I also have the mental capacity to take it on. So therefore I see it as, I, I am doing that. There is no other option because I can take it on. I am taking it on because I know that there's so many people that can't. And I also know that I was that person that couldn't.

• 1:18:06Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  So I, I'm, I'm doing it for myself and for them because there, there's just no way that it can keep going forward the way it is.

• 1:18:16Gemma Bath?

  What is your hope for the Echo campaign in the future? What do you want it to be?

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, ideally, I would be able to dedicate like the rest of my life and my career to that. And that would be my, yeah, eventual job. Um, I think there's just so much that needs to be changed. I think there are a lot of advocates right now doing incredible work and I love that we're all focusing on different things and then coming together and supporting each other for everything, but coming together on certain issues. I think you do really have to focus on really small things, or not small things, I shouldn't say, narrow things.

• 1:18:55Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, it feels like that. In order to change the system, it's like tweaking it one thing at a time.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yeah.

• 1:19:02Gemma Bath?

  And, and right now, would you say your focus are these community service orders for sexual assault?

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  So I originally kind of saw it as that and then pivoted to where did this actually go wrong? Because again, removing discretion is not necessarily the solution. Um, and the DPP did not appeal my case. And at the time, I did understand it, the reason that was given. I mean, they don't even need to give me a reason. They, they are just incredible. And my Crown prosecutor and the solicitor and both of my wasos, um, absolutely incredible. Um, they obviously are not the people that make that decision.

• 1:19:41Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Um, I know that they even used some of the public outcry and, and, you know, unrest to petition for it within the DPP. You know, they had screenshots of comments and of, of the, the petition and of other things were, were genuinely used to convince people above them. And the reasoning that I was given was that it would set a precedent. If the appeal was.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Not successful, he, it could potentially set a precedent. Um, but then on the other hand, R B Kramer with Marty Lane, um, they quoted that of that. He had completed his 300 hours of community service before it made it to the appellate board. And therefore they said, yes, it was not a correct sentence, but we will not overturn the conviction because he has already served his time.

• 1:20:32Gemma Bath?

  So it's like, you need to appeal now, or you, you know?

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Well, even if you do appeal now, you only have two weeks to appeal. Even if you do appeal now, it will still take too long to get there. And he only has a hundred hours. So the chances of him completing, completing those hours before it gets to the appeals board is obviously quite high. So they said, that could also set its own precedent. So those two reasonings at the time really did make sense to me. And then I sat down with a few different people and then we looked at it and we went, where did this actually go wrong? The DPP should have appealed it. And if they were worried about setting a precedent, that's where the legislative change comes in. That's where the attorney general stands

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  up and says, wait, that's actually not right. We, we do need to, our entire system from beginning to end did fail you because there is supposed to be an appeals board to challenge judicial discretion. So without the challenge of that judicial discretion, you have set a precedent.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  And it has now been set, and my case can be used as case law, to give serious sexual offences, community service.

• 1:21:42Gemma Bath?

  Because it's happened before.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Because it has literally just set a precedent. Exactly what they didn't want to do. And really where that goes wrong is, you know, I'm jumping up and down saying that we need a judge oversight board, someone that, you know, that the judicial commission is very specific to if the judge was outright racist to someone, or, you know, it was very explicit sexism was used in certain quotes. That's what the judicial commission is for, for to report to. It is not to report decisions or things that can be deemed offensive but aren't necessarily outright. You know, I can't make a report to the judicial commission. That's what the appeals board is for. And when that doesn't function correctly, if

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  the DPP go to then the appeals board and then it doesn't function correctly, that's when politicians can step in and I go, hang on a second, that's, our system has failed beginning to end. But technically, who failed me? Unfortunately, the DPP. And who oversees the DPP? Nobody. They're an independent board who report to no one. And in the United Kingdom, they have an oversight board of the DPP. We do not. We have an oversight board. We have a New South Wales ombudsman. We have an oversight board of the judges, the judicial commission. Um, we do not have a DPP ombudsman. We do not have anyone that they report to

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  um, in any circumstance. In Bronwyn Winfield's case, it was a murder. Um, she, oh, I don't think it was hers. I think it was the one before, the um, podcast before that.

• 1:23:20Gemma Bath?

  Lynn Dawson?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. The DPP didn't have to say why they didn't take that case to court. Um, and it came out later that they were basing it off evidence that the mum had seen Lynn, and that's why they weren't going to talk about it. And that's why they weren't going to bring it forward because they were like, well, the mum cited her. That never happened. But the DPP didn't have to tell anyone that because they do not have to use transparency. And nobody is checking the facts of that case. They don't, they don't hand it back to the police with the reasoning. And then the police go, wait a minute, that actually didn't happen. So then it got to the point where it was like, well, 20 years later, we're finding out that the DPP did not take this because of a citing that never

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  occurred, because nobody was overseeing that. So there's so many circumstances where this is so problematic in that nobody is overseeing the DPP. And, and where do we create an oversight board that is both, you know, enabling them to stay independent and stay as this incredible association that they are, but also holding them accountable? And not only holding them accountable, but giving trust to people. I have no one to go to. The DPP say no. The only person I can go to is the media. There is no other structure, anything in place to support that. I mean, in the UK, not only do they have

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  an oversight board, they also have a victims' rights register that is specific to that and takes into account what victims have to be disclosed and the transparency within that. That is its own thing that is constantly being adapted and rebuilt. And we don't have anything like that. And so I think for me, in, in speaking that things need to be super narrow, that's kind of where at the moment I've, I've gone. I'm a huge advocate for things like independent legal support. But I think Sarah from With You We Can, she's got that covered.

• 1:25:13Gemma Bath?

  Sarah Rosenberg.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's, she's got that covered. I think I will support her every second of the way through that. Um, Harry James with his good character laws, there's, there's so many different things that everyone's doing. And I think we have to act really narrow and be very specific, or it's not going to enact change.

• 1:25:31Gemma Bath?

  But I think as devastating as all of these things that you talk about are, the fact that we've got you, we've got Harry, we've got Sarah, like they really have messed with the wrong people because how articulate you are, how passionate you are, like surely we're gonna fill some cracks here.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  I think even just the way that the advocacy world has just welcomed me with open arms. Um, I, I think even Brittany Higgins has sent me the most lovely messages. And I, it's just, she's someone that I looked up to when I was younger. Like that was someone to me that I was just like.

• 1:26:06Gemma Bath?

  It's like the community that you don't want to be a part of, but once you're in there.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not a club you, you wish to be in. Yeah. Everyone along the way, even the way that they just want to help. Um, they want to assist and put their hand up. Like all of my friends are like, what can I do? What can I do?

• 1:26:23Gemma Bath?

  Because we're all sick of it.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Everyone just wants to help. But I think if anyone thinks that they can prevent it from happening entirely, you are wasting resources. You are the, we need to absolutely prevent it as much as we can, but there also needs to be an equal distribution of resources to both survivors and victims' families. Because unfortunately, people are going to be murdered. That is just the reality. People are going to be raped. And if we think we can stop sexual assault, we are incredibly incorrect. That is just not the case. But if a victim can be stopped from being re-traumatized post-assault, then we're moving forward as a, as a society. But right now, I, I just, I think there is

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  so much focus on prevention. And I think it's very easy for politicians to jump on the prevention train. And I think it helps them tick boxes and say that they, they've done it. They've, they can put their hand on their heart, go home to their kids and family and say, I'm making a change. I'm making a difference. And there are still victims being raped. Someone was raped yesterday and they are about to go through what I have been through, what everyone's been through, and potentially get a very different result, potentially get a similar result. What are we doing for them? What are we doing for the person that's going to be raped tomorrow? Because they're still going to be raped. Doesn't matter if we try our best to prevent it. There's someone that's going to be raped tomorrow.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  And what are we doing to have something in place for them the next day until unfortunately, they're probably five year journey?

• 1:28:02Gemma Bath?

  Obviously, all of these changes that you're trying to get, that you're hoping for, aren't going to be in tomorrow. So what is your message to that person that is raped tomorrow? How, how do they handle this? How do they get through it?

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  I think you have to do whatever is right for you. There's no black and white answer.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Going to the police may not be the right decision, and that's okay. Um, surround yourself with the best support that you possibly can. And unfortunately, get your own lawyer. Because right now, I can't put my hand on my heart and say the system is going to protect you. So you need to protect yourself first. And I think that's what I would change if I was to do it again. Not that that's something that I can afford, and I think many people can't. And personally, not something that I could. I mean, even before I went to the press, I tried to, to get a lawyer just to check through everything, just to make sure I was good to go. And um, I was quoted at like $1,400 for one session.

• 1:29:02Gemma Bath?

  They're stupidly expensive.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  I mean, there's not even a, a point where the lawyer can step in really. But I think unfortunately, this change is not going to happen quickly. So you have to protect yourself.

• 1:29:12Gemma Bath?

  Anastasia, thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing your story. And thank you for being so kick ass. I'm glad we've got you.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 1:29:19Gemma Bath?

  To keep fighting.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  I think it's so important, but I also, I think it's healing within itself to do that and to, to make sure it never happens to someone again.

• 1:29:30Gemma Bath?

  Thank you to Anastasia for sharing her story with us. You can find a link to the Echo campaign in our show notes. The Sarah Rosenberg you heard us mention is a young Sydney woman who took her alleged rapist to court, only for him to be found not guilty. She now uses her advocacy to argue for legal representation for victim survivors. We'll link her episode with True Crime Conversations in our show notes. If you or anyone you know needs to speak with an expert, please contact 1-800-RESPECT, the National Sexual Assault, Domestic and Family Violence Counseling Service. If you are in immediate danger, call triple zero. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.