Pod Insights True Crime All The Time The Idaho College Murders Part 1 About this episode On November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death in their off-campus house at 1122 King Road in Moscow. The victims were 21-year-old Kaylee Goncalves, 21-year-old Madison Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Kernodle, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin. Two other roommates in the home survived that night.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders at the University of Idaho. Four fun-loving young people with their whole lives ahead of them lost their lives. In this part 1 episode, we'll discuss the details of the murders and the hunt for the killer. Police zeroed in on Bryan Kohberger, a grad student at nearby Washington State University, but they had to prove it was him. There is also a lingering question as to the motive for these murders.
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Transcript 0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 466 of the True Crime All The Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:44 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
0:45 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. You know, last week was, uh, was nice.
0:49 Speaker 01 It was.
0:49 Speaker 00 To take a week off and, you know, spend time with the family. And now we're back at it. A little refreshing.
0:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's always nice to have a week off.
1:01 Speaker 00 It is. You know, we don't get a lot of them, but especially around the holidays. Like to take at least a week off. So we hope everyone's having a great holiday season. We're recording right before, um, the first.
1:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16 Speaker 00 So by the time this comes out, it'll be 2026.
1:21 Speaker 01 Hope you all had a happy new year.
1:24 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. And I hope 2026 is a good one. Not gonna make any promises though, because, uh, that got me into trouble last time.
1:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, you kind of quit, uh, doing that, uh, for the last, uh, two years now.
1:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, no more, you know, prognostications from me.
1:43 Speaker 01 Definitely don't do anything that starts with pro.
1:48 Speaker 00 Don't even try that. Uh, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Catherine Carpio.
1:53 Speaker 01 Hey Catherine.
1:54 Speaker 00 Ricky jumped out of our highest level.
1:56 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Ricky.
1:56 Speaker 00 Sherry Billit.
1:57 Speaker 01 Well, hi Sherry.
1:58 Speaker 00 Spring Pierce jumped out of our highest level.
2:01 Speaker 01 Oh, thanks, Spring. Awesome.
2:03 Speaker 00 Angela Rogers.
2:04 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Angela.
2:04 Speaker 00 Ally Perry.
2:05 Speaker 01 There's Ally.
2:06 Speaker 00 Terry R.
2:07 Speaker 01 Oh, Terry R.
2:09 Speaker 00 Yoma Creative 16.
2:11 Speaker 01 Well, keep being creative.
2:12 Speaker 00 Nick Smith.
2:13 Speaker 01 Hey, Nick.
2:14 Speaker 00 Jasmine Houk.
2:16 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Houk.
2:17 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Emily MacRinos.
2:20 Speaker 01 MacRinos.
2:21 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault.
2:24 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Melissa Beebe.
2:27 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks, Melissa.
2:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, we appreciate the, the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had an amazing PayPal donation from our good friend, Melinda Worgacki.
2:37 Speaker 01 Hey, Worgacki, appreciate that.
2:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, we've met her and her husband at CrimeCon.
2:43 Speaker 01 They're awesome.
2:44 Speaker 00 They live pretty close to us. So Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Dorothy Kilgallen. She was a journalist and a TV personality, really known for covering high-profile murder cases. She was even on game shows and, you know, other shows. She died at the age of 52. But at the time of her death, she was investigating the assassination of John F. Kennedy, which has led to a number of, you know, conspiracy theories, if you want to call them that.
3:21 Speaker 01 I think it could always be kind of touchy when you do an investigation into like JFK.
3:28 Speaker 00 Well, you know, people have their theories. People are entrenched, some of them. And you also have the fact that if some of the theories are true, then there would be people who would not want certain things to come to light.
3:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true.
3:45 Speaker 00 So we'll get into all of it. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?
3:50 Speaker 01 I am.
3:51 Speaker 00 We are tackling the Idaho College Murders. On November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death in their off-campus house at 1122 King Row in Moscow. The victims were 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21-year-old Madison Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Kernodl, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin. Two other roommates in the home survived that night. And, you know, it's so hard for me to believe that this has been over three years.
4:32 Speaker 01 It really is shocking.
4:34 Speaker 00 Since these murders occurred, because I remember them on the news like it was yesterday.
4:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:41 Speaker 00 But this is also a case that scared the you-know-what out of me.
4:44 Speaker 01 Sure did.
4:44 Speaker 00 Because at the time, I had, you know, a couple of kids in college and... It's always scary. The victims were killed by Brian Koberger, a grad student at nearby Washington State University in Pullman. Koberger appeared to stalk them for months. But even today, you know, his motive is kind of unknown and prosecutors have no definitive link between Koberger and the victim. Now, in part one, we'll discuss the lives of the victims and how the early stages of the investigation unfolded. Ethan Chapin was born on October
5:25 Speaker 00 29th, 2002. He was a triplet, born minutes before his siblings, Maisy and Hunter. You ever known a triplet?
5:34 Speaker 01 You know, actually, I went to school with some triplets and they were a lot of fun, but.
5:43 Speaker 00 Okay, you might want to add some context to that before people take that the wrong way.
5:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, I mean, just that they, you know, they, they were just very energetic. And it was difficult to know who was who.
5:59 Speaker 00 Okay, so they were very.
6:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
6:02 Speaker 00 Identical.
6:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
6:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. Ethan was from Conway, Washington. All three siblings enrolled in the University of Idaho in August 2022. Ethan was a freshman sports management major and a member of the Sigma Chi fraternity. He had previously played basketball in high school. His obituary said, "Since attending the University of Idaho, Ethan lived his best life. He loved the social life, intramurals and tolerated the academics. He also continued to play sports." And that
6:39 Speaker 00 Kind of sums up my college experience right there.
6:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:44 Speaker 00 Obviously, I've talked about it. I loved the social life too much.
6:48 Speaker 01 You did.
6:49 Speaker 00 But I also did like playing intramural sports. We had our own, you know, team with the made up shirts and everything.
6:56 Speaker 01 I even continued doing that after you left university and I remember you at a place that we used to work together.
7:05 Speaker 00 Oh yeah, we had a team.
7:06 Speaker 01 You had a team there too.
7:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, we played basketball. Xana Kernodle was born on July 5th, 2002. She grew up in Post Falls, Idaho. She was a gymnast and played volleyball, track and soccer. Xana majored in marketing at the University of Idaho and was a member of the Pi Beta Phi sorority and the Vandal Solutions Sales Team. She also worked part-time at Mad Greek Restaurant in Moscow. Xana's sister Jasmine said about her, "You rarely get to meet someone like Xana. She was so positive, funny and was loved by everyone who met her."
7:48 Speaker 01 Sounds like she had an outgoing personality.
7:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, it also sounds like she was into a lot of different things, especially sports. Xana and Ethan were friends before they started dating and Xana spent time with Ethan's family over the summer. Xana was roommates with Madison Mogen and Kaylee Gonzalez. Madison Mogen was born on May 25th, 2001. She grew up in northern Idaho and was close friends with Kaylee Gonzalez, whom she met in middle school. Kaylee and Madison were so close, they were described as more like sisters than friends. Madison was a senior marketing major at the University of Idaho and a member of the Pi Beta Phi sorority.
8:35 Speaker 00 She also worked at the Mad Greek Restaurant with Xana. Madison had plans to move to Boise after graduation in the spring.
8:45 Speaker 01 Ever been to Boise?
8:46 Speaker 00 I have not. I don't, actually, I don't think I've ever even been to Idaho and, at all.
8:51 Speaker 01 Been to Idaho, driving through, but never like, you know, staying over or anything like that. Looks like it could be a nice place, but um.
9:02 Speaker 00 Why did you laugh when you said that?
9:04 Speaker 01 Because I didn't, I didn't really.
9:07 Speaker 00 It almost made it sound like you were being insincere.
9:10 Speaker 01 No, it has like the, the mountain ranges and the wilderness and it looks like it could be like a good place to vacation, you know, or
9:18 Speaker 00 Maybe even live.
9:19 Speaker 01 Or maybe live, you know, but I didn't stop to experience the Rockies in Idaho.
9:24 Speaker 00 Okay. I almost feel like you're digging yourself a hole here that
9:28 Speaker 01 I felt like I dug myself out though.
9:29 Speaker 00 Is gonna get you in trouble.
9:30 Speaker 01 I'm okay now.
9:32 Speaker 00 Kaylee Gonzalez was born on June 8th, 2001. Kaylee joined the Alpha Phi sorority and was studying to become an elementary school teacher. She was described as a social person who made friends wherever she went. On November 12th, 2002, all of the roommates at 1122 King Road went out in Moscow. Ethan Chapin attended a formal with his sister and then went to his Sigma Chi frat house with Xana. Kaylee Gonzalez posted an Instagram photo carousel around 9:00 PM showing herself and her roommates with the caption, "One lucky girl to be surrounded by these people every day."
10:18 Speaker 01 Seems like a very sweet post.
10:20 Speaker 00 It does. And you know, me, I'm not a, a big social media person, especially when it comes to posting things about myself and what I'm doing. That's just not something I'm into. But this is a case, Gibbs, that played out, you know, where social media was very prevalent. Right? These are younger people.
10:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:46 Speaker 00 They have a, a social media presence like most people their age do. And so you can tell a lot about someone or, you know, see how they live their lives in, in certain ways through their social media. Kaylee and Madison went out together that night. All of the roommates were home by 2 a.m. Madison and Kaylee were together on the third floor. Xana and Ethan were together on the second floor and two other roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, were also still
11:26 Speaker 00 up. Dylan's room was on the second floor with Xana and Ethan and Bethany lived on the first floor. At 4 a.m., Xana accepted a DoorDash order. Now, you know, Gibbs, here we DoorDash a lot. We always DoorDash when you come.
11:42 Speaker 01 You do.
11:43 Speaker 00 For recording night.
11:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:46 Speaker 00 But 4 a.m. to most of us is, uh, is not DoorDash hours.
11:53 Speaker 01 No, that's pretty, pretty late.
11:54 Speaker 00 Or pretty early, depending on how you look at it. But when you're in college on the weekends, you know, 4 a.m. is maybe, uh, not that big a deal.
12:05 Speaker 01 That'd be prime, uh, DoorDash time.
12:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure they, uh, there's some DoorDashers around some of these big colleges that make, uh, pretty good money.
12:13 Speaker 01 We're delivering those insomnia cookies and things like that.
12:16 Speaker 00 Those are good. Shortly after 4 a.m., Dylan was woken up by strange noises in the house. Police believe the murders occurred between 4 and 4:25 a.m. The killer went up to the third floor and fatally stabbed Madison and Kaylee. Dylan heard what sounded like Kaylee playing with her dog in one of the third floor bedrooms. A short time after that, she heard who she thought was Kaylee saying, "There's someone here." It's possible this was Xana on her phone because records showed she was on TikTok at about 4:12 a.m. At 4:17
12:56 Speaker 00 a.m., security cameras less than 50 feet from Xana's room picked up the sounds of Kaylee's dog barking and distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. Investigators believe Xana was still awake when Kaylee and Madison were killed.
13:18 Speaker 00 And as the killer was either coming down the stairs or leaving, he encountered Xana and he ended up killing her. He then killed Ethan, who was asleep in Xana's room. Just before 4:30 a.m., the surviving roommates were texting back and forth and appeared to grow frightened as their calls and texts to the victims went unanswered. At 4:20 a.m., Dylan started calling her roommates, Xana and Kaylee, and had a brief 41 second call with Bethany before calling Xana again. She called Madison, then texted Bethany. No one is answering.
14:01 Speaker 00 I mean, I just want to take a minute, Gibbs, and you know, kind of break this down. And there are a couple of things that jump out at me. Number one, these two roommates who end up surviving this, you know, unbelievably horrible attack and a series of murders. They're scared.
14:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:22 Speaker 00 They're hearing things, but like we always talk about, they don't know exactly what they're hearing. But then I think as they're trying to get in touch with their roommates, nobody's answering, okay, they start to get more and more worried. But the other thing that jumps out at me is the perpetrator and how bold this person is. I mean, how many people are in this house?
14:47 Speaker 01 Exactly.
14:48 Speaker 00 And are we talking one person? Multiple people? I mean, these are all questions, obviously, that the police are going to have to ask. But to go into a house with, let's say, six people in there, that really either takes some incredible planning or you just don't care about what could happen to you.
15:14 Speaker 01 And/or confidence too, right?
15:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, and maybe overconfidence, who knows?
15:19 Speaker 01 I'm just thinking how frantic that situation had to be for Dylan and Bethany, trying to figure out what is going on.
15:27 Speaker 00 And what noises are we really hearing? Bethany tried calling Madison, Zanna and Ethan. Dylan texted Kaylee, Kaylee, what's going on? Bethany replied, yeah, dude, WTF? Dylan described seeing someone in like a ski mask, almost. They continued texting back and forth. The following messages were published by CNN. Bethany to Dylan, STFU. Now, I don't use a lot of these abbreviations, but having younger people in the house, my kids, you know, about this same age, I've come to know what all this stuff stands for.
16:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:11 Speaker 00 Dylan texted back to Bethany like he had something over his head and mouth. I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out. And then Bethany texted back, so am I. Dylan indicated her phone was about to die. And Bethany texted, come to my room, which was on the first floor. She texted, run. Dylan texted to Bethany, I'm scared though. And then Bethany said, yeah, I know, but it's better than being alone. So Dylan ultimately went to Bethany's room. But you can put yourself in their shoes, Gibbs.
16:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:49 Speaker 00 Dylan is scared to death and unsure if she should try to make this move to Bethany's room or not. She ultimately does.
16:58 Speaker 01 It's like a scene from a horror flick.
17:01 Speaker 00 Yeah. You're in the house. Someone else is in the house. It seems like something bad might be going on, but you don't know what, and you don't know where they are. The girls made another round of calls at 4:27 a.m. Dylan texted Kaylee, please answer at 4:32. Bethany accessed Snapchat at 4:34 and Instagram at 4:37 before all phone communication stopped for about three hours. Prosecution filings previously asserted that Dylan and Bethany woke up around 10:23 a.m. to discover their messages were unanswered. But the transcript shared by the defense shows phone activity
17:46 Speaker 00 more than two hours before they started reaching out to their roommates and more than four hours before calling 911.
17:55 Speaker 01 Well, that's a long time to wait before you call 911.
17:58 Speaker 00 Well, I think what it's possibly doing, or what the defense, right, would want to show is that maybe they're not being 100% truthful in what they've said. Maybe they know more than what they're have told. Bethany's phone activity started with a call to her dad. At 7:30 a.m., Dylan accessed several social media apps. Bethany talked to her dad and took photos. Dylan was on Instagram for over two hours and spent time on Snapchat and Indeed. But my question is, you know, how unusual is this? Right? Have you ever lived with roommates before?
18:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:43 Speaker 00 I, I have too. And it wasn't unusual, let's say in a bigger environment, a bigger house, to not see that person for hours and hours at a time, especially in the morning. You're like, okay, they're still sleeping.
18:58 Speaker 01 Right.
18:59 Speaker 00 They were obviously up at four or whatever time. So, you know, college kids sleep in when they can.
19:06 Speaker 01 You're not going to go in their room and check and things like that?
19:08 Speaker 00 No, but you do have to look at it in contrast with the fear, right, from earlier. Not to mention the fact that, okay, there's a guy in a ski mask and you know what the defense is going to say. So what? You see a guy in a ski mask and then you just get up and you get on Instagram?
19:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:29 Speaker 00 And you don't go check on anybody?
19:32 Speaker 01 You don't make a phone call?
19:34 Speaker 00 Well, and that's where the 10:23 a.m. kind of mark comes in because that's when Dylan began reaching out to her roommate. She texted Kaylee, please answer, and wrote to Madison, are you up? She texted Kaylee again, are you up? They continued using their phones for the next hour, including messages and calls, until Bethany called 911 at 11:56 a.m. to report Xana unconscious. Now, pre-cell phones, pre-texting, right, you'd have no choice really but to get up and go check on somebody.
20:12 Speaker 01 Sure.
20:13 Speaker 00 But that's not how kids kind of operate today.
20:16 Speaker 01 No.
20:17 Speaker 00 You know that. You, you have kids that are in their twenties and The one thing that I have really noticed is even though we're in the same house a lot of the time, instead of just walking down one floor or into another room, I'll get a phone call or a text. And okay, it's just the way things are, I guess.
20:41 Speaker 01 It is. It used to bug me like, can't you just come here and talk to me real quick?
20:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, but now my wife's doing it and she's of my same age. So what are you gonna do? Two other friends could be heard with them on the call. Friends were called to the house because they thought one of the victims had passed out because she wasn't waking up. One of the roommates said, per ABC, um, one of our, one of our roommates who's passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. And, and let's be honest, you know, right out of the gate, again, some of this information is strange.
21:23 Speaker 01 It seems so.
21:25 Speaker 00 If you saw a man in what you described as a ski mask, do you get up, investigate it? Maybe not because you're scared, but then do you just fall asleep? All questions that are going to be asked. Responding officers found the four victims. Dylan Mortensen told authorities that in the middle of the night, she saw a man in black clothes and a mask walking past her in the house. She had opened her bedroom door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying, coming from Xana's room. She heard a male voice say something to the effect of, it's okay, I'm going to help you. She opened her door again and saw
22:08 Speaker 00 the masked figure. She described him as at least five foot 10 and not very muscular, but athletically built with bushy eyebrows.
22:19 Speaker 00 She said she stood there frozen and in shock. She didn't recognize the man who walked toward the back sliding glass door of the home. She locked herself in her room. Now Dylan acknowledged that her memory was a bit blurred since she had just woken up and may still have been drunk.
22:38 Speaker 01 That's a probably a strong possibility.
22:40 Speaker 00 Uh, yeah, if you were in college with me, it's a, it's almost a certainty.
22:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:46 Speaker 00 Police found a horrific crime scene. They found blood pooled on bed comforters. It was on the walls, the floors. Some of the victims had so much blood on them. Officers at first could not see additional injuries. Some of their faces were so badly damaged, they were unrecognizable. Kaylee and Madison were found in one of the beds on the third floor. They were covered by a pink blanket that was covered in blood. A knife sheath was found on the bed next to Madison. There was a large pool of blood near Kaylee's midsection and blood on the walls. The bodies appeared to have lost a significant amount of blood.
23:28 Speaker 00 And, and I would say so, I mean, we're describing what sounds like just a horrific scene where uh, blood is everywhere. Madison had wounds to her forearm and hands and a gash under her right eye. That went from the corner of her eye to her nose. Kaylee was struck in the face by an unknown object. According to a report, Kaylee was unrecognizable as her facial structure was extremely damaged.
23:58 Speaker 01 So brutal.
23:59 Speaker 00 It is, and it's, it's hard to talk about, but you know, you have to get into the weeds. Right? To paint the picture of what type of monster we're dealing with here. The murder of four young people would be bad, no matter how it happened.
24:19 Speaker 01 Yes.
24:20 Speaker 00 But these were very savage, horrific murders. They both suffered stab wounds to the liver and lung. Kaylee had two brain bleeds, a stab wound behind her clavicle that cut the vein and artery. And injuries connected with asphyxiation and blunt force trauma.
24:41 Speaker 00 So two girls who, you know, everybody described as wonderful and nothing but glowing things to say about them. They're in college. They're trying to prepare for, you know, the next chapter in their life. They have families at home who love them and they are just savagely murdered. And again, I, I think it's one of the things that scared me so bad when this information started to come out about the murders.
25:11 Speaker 01 Well, obviously whoever did this is a absolute monster.
25:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Kaylee also had unique injuries described as a horizontal pattern. It's not clear what caused those injuries. Zana's body was on the floor. Ethan was found on Zana's bed. Zana had over 50 stab wounds. Most of them were defensive. There was evidence of a struggle in her room. Her fatal injuries were stab wounds to her lung and heart. Investigators believe Zana was still awake. When Kaylee and Madison were attacked, she was most likely eating the food she had ordered. She possibly heard something and started going upstairs to check it out. Blood was found on the third floor stairwell.
26:00 Speaker 00 Ethan Chapin's fatal injury was a stab wound under his clavicle that severed his subclavian vein and artery. His jugular vein was also severed. Officials confirmed that Ethan's blood seeped out of the side of the house before his body was found. Out of the house.
26:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:23 Speaker 00 And I do remember this when the news broke that it was reported at some point, but it's hard to fathom. Now, the body does hold quite a bit of blood.
26:36 Speaker 01 It does.
26:37 Speaker 00 But to travel along the floor and reach a point where it can escape to the outside of the home. Man, if that doesn't paint a chilling picture, I don't know what does.
26:52 Speaker 01 It's scary. That's all I can keep thinking in my head, how scary this event had to be for those individuals.
26:59 Speaker 00 The murder weapon was a K-bar knife, which has never been found. However, DNA was recovered from a tan leather knife sheath left on Madison's bed. A shoe print believed to be from the intruder was found outside one of those fivers rooms. Now, you and I have talked about K-bars quite a bit.
27:21 Speaker 01 We have.
27:22 Speaker 00 That is your kind of favorite knife.
27:24 Speaker 01 It is.
27:25 Speaker 00 You bought me one for Christmas. I love it. It's something that, you know, the armed forces, especially the Marines, I think, have used for a very long time.
27:34 Speaker 01 Eighty years.
27:35 Speaker 00 But it's also a very dangerous knife.
27:37 Speaker 01 It is.
27:38 Speaker 00 It can do quite a bit of damage. It's got a longer blade. Authorities reviewed surveillance from the area and saw a white Hyundai Elantra pass by the victim's house three times before entering the area a fourth time at 4:04 a.m. The car came back into view at 4:20 a.m. speeding off. So, I mean, I think you'd have to say, Gibbs, that, you know, police, very early on, they have some things to work with.
28:08 Speaker 01 They do.
28:09 Speaker 00 They know what type of weapon was used. They don't have it, but the killer apparently left behind a sheath for the knife that had his DNA on it. They also have some shoe prints, and they have this white Hyundai Elantra. Moscow police asked authorities to look for white Elantras. On November 29th, a Washington State University police officer searched cars matching the description at the university and found one registered to Brian Coburger, a PhD criminology student.
28:48 Speaker 01 So the murders take place at the University of Idaho, but they find this vehicle and then the visual at Washington State University. But really, that's what, seven, eight miles apart?
29:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think it's just a little over seven miles apart. Maybe a 10 minute drive or so. It's not far at all.
29:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:09 Speaker 00 Which does explain why Washington State University police officers would be looking out for a white Elantra.
29:20 Speaker 01 Sure, I'm assuming they're thinking, if that happened there, it could happen here.
29:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, and we're, we're not very far apart. Brian Coburger was born on November 21st, 1994. He was raised in a working class town near the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania. His father was a maintenance worker and his mother worked in the school system. He has two older sisters. Brian was described as awkward and withdrawn. He did well in school, but faced personal challenges, such as allegedly using drugs in his late teens. He struggled in social situations and had limited success in relationships. Some classmates described him as creepy towards women, and others said his feelings of isolation and rejection by women
30:10 Speaker 00 were similar to those who associate with incel-like ideology. This is according to AETV. And, you know, this, the whole incel thing comes up in more and more cases, especially, you know, involving men killing women. For this very reason, you know, the rejection, the lifelong problem with the opposite sex.
30:41 Speaker 00 Leading to what a hatred of women and
30:46 Speaker 01 Revenge?
30:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of things around it. Koberger allegedly wrote on forums during his youth about experiencing depression. He posted on the forum Tapatalk, previously known as Yooku. According to the New York Times, 16 year old Koberger wrote in 2011. "I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth. As I hug my family, I look into their faces, I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game, but less." Okay, doesn't seem like the typical writing of a 16 year old boy.
31:31 Speaker 01 No.
31:31 Speaker 00 Organic sack of meat. He wrote about feeling disconnected from society and experiencing anxiety, depression, depersonalization, a lack of emotion, and the constant thought of suicide. Now, some of those things unfortunately are not all that uncommon. Right? A lot of people have anxiety. A lot of people experience depression.
31:57 Speaker 01 Sure do.
31:58 Speaker 00 But I don't know how many people feel that when they're looking at their family, it's like looking at a video game only less. So literally their family is less to them than a video game.
32:14 Speaker 01 Pretty distant.
32:15 Speaker 00 Koberger commiserated with others about suffering from a little understood neurological condition called visual snow, in which a person's vision is obscured by scattering dots. Okay, I have never heard of that before. It sounds like it would be awful to live with. Now, I've seen stars, you know, I've had weird things happen to my eyes, but they've gone away.
32:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:42 Speaker 00 If you had something like that, that was constant, that would be a
32:47 Speaker 01 Problem.
32:47 Speaker 00 That would be very problematic. Now, he didn't use his name on the website, but the post included a reference to his birthday. His username Exar matches an email address for Coburger that appeared in a 2009 leak of accounts from an online payment company. That account listed his location as Effort, Pennsylvania, and that's where he grew up. And some of the posts also contain details that friends said matched their recollections of his behavior and struggles at the time. In one post, Coburger wrote that when he looked in the mirror, he felt he did not deserve to live. "Nothing I do is enjoyable. I'm blank.
33:31 Speaker 00 I have no opinion. I have no emotion. I have nothing. Can you relate?" And it was said that these feelings started around the same time as his visual snow symptoms, and that was in September of 2009.
33:46 Speaker 01 Kind of like how we were talking earlier in the Patreon episode about the Manchurian candidate. I feel like these would be some of the symptoms a Manchurian candidate would have.
33:58 Speaker 00 Well, at the very least, you'd have to say that, you know, it doesn't seem as though life is going well for him. He's not doing well.
34:07 Speaker 01 No.
34:09 Speaker 00 His friend, Thomas Arns, recalled about this time, "I know it was something that really bugged him. He was basically to the point where he was neurotic about it." Coburger wrote that he tried anti-migraine medication, visited a neurologist, and went on a strict diet to resolve the problem. By 2012, it appeared he was learning to live with the condition. He wrote that he had accepted it and was coming to terms with it. Coburger graduated from high school in 2013, and he started using heroin around that time. Now, I don't know if he went straight to heroin, but most people do not.
34:50 Speaker 01 It's a pretty, uh, big jump.
34:53 Speaker 00 It's very powerful. Not that you couldn't, but I think a lot of people who use drugs maybe worked their way up to heroin. Two high school friends, Casey Aronson Bree, who asked to keep her last name private, told CBS that Coburger was overweight and bullied until his senior year, when he lost about 100 pounds.
35:16 Speaker 01 Well, 100 pounds is a lot of weight to lose.
35:18 Speaker 00 It is. It is a lot. Casey recalled he was rail thin. It was after that weight loss that a lot of people noticed a huge switch. Her brother, who was Coburger's friend, said he was bullied by him. When Brian would get kind of angry with him, he would gaslight him and get physically aggressive. Coburger would sometimes put her brother in chokeholds. Bree also claimed that Coburger started using heroin, saying, "You just saw him becoming more self-destructive. He really stayed secluded." Coburger wrote in May 2018 to his longtime
35:57 Speaker 00 friend, Jack Bayless, via Facebook, "I only used when I was in a deep suicidal state. I have since really learned a lot. Not a person alive could convince me to use it." So by that point, he claimed he had been off heroin for two years.
36:13 Speaker 01 It was like, to him, he had a purpose to use it when things were really, really bad. But he also learned from it and hasn't used it at that time for two years.
36:23 Speaker 00 According to him. Now, I don't know what heroin does to you. Now, I will freely admit and happily admit, I've never tried it. I just know it's not good. To me, it's one of those really scary ones that can kill you if things go wrong.
36:41 Speaker 01 Yeah. You get a bad batch, or take too much, and can be addictive.
36:48 Speaker 00 In an October 2018 message, Koberger wrote that he was interested in studying criminals and would like to be involved in capturing violent criminals, but it could be difficult to get a job like that. And we said it, right? He was studying criminology. I think that's the other very fascinating part of this story to many people. And here you have a person studying criminology in the hopes, as he put it, to someday help catch violent criminals.
37:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:21 Speaker 00 But who ultimately becomes a violent criminal.
37:26 Speaker 01 Exactly.
37:27 Speaker 00 And we'll talk about it, you know, but did he use his knowledge, what he learned studying criminology in the commission of the crimes? Brian's friend Casey last saw him in 2017 at a friend's wedding. She hugged him and told him he looked good and she was proud of him. His friend Bree recalled that he was focused on earning a criminology degree because he wanted to change the world and do something positive. She added, people were not his strong suit. And I think through his criminology studies, he was really trying
38:05 Speaker 00 to understand humans and trying to understand himself. In 2018, Koberger completed an associate's degree in psychology at Northampton Community College. He earned his bachelor's at De Sales University in 2020, and then he did further graduate studies at De Sales and completed those in 2022. In the summer of 2022, Koberger moved across the country to begin a PhD program at Washington State University in Pullman, which is, like we said, less than 10 miles from Moscow, Idaho.
38:45 Speaker 01 So like you said, he's developing the knowledge of all this criminology. And that's what gets him out to just across the border from Idaho.
38:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a pretty long move, right? He's moving all the way across the country. But the other thing that, that I want to talk about is, right? This is a guy who had some issues. You'd have to say that. We, you know, detailed out some of them. But doesn't it seem, Gibbs, like he's putting his life on track? According to him, he's not doing drugs. He gets his associate, then he gets his bachelor's. And he starts working on a PhD. That's, you know, it's some pretty heady stuff.
39:30 Speaker 01 It looks like you said, he's headed in the right direction.
39:33 Speaker 00 He took classes in forensic psychology and was interested in the antisocial behavior of famous killers. He watched videos and read articles about how killers think and act. You know, who else does that? You, me, a lot of people interested in true crime. Now, you can look at it on one hand as, you know, trying to figure out how these people can do what they do, which is, I think, the way that most of us consume true crime. Right? We're appalled by the killer's actions, but we're also fascinated because
40:17 Speaker 00 how can somebody do this? What led up to this? I just wonder if that's how Brian Koberger is looking at it, or if he's almost, in some ways, you know, revering some of these killers and studying them for different reasons.
40:36 Speaker 01 Well, what we know now, pretty sure he was probably doing the latter.
40:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, I would agree with you. I think most people would as well. His former de-sales professor, Dr. Katherine Ramsland, later noted to News Nation, he had a fascination with the criminal mind. She worried that what he learned may have informed or inspired his actions. So, and it does kind of go with what we were just talking about. Also, Dr. Ramsland is a A pretty well-respected person within her field.
41:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:12 Speaker 00 Morph and I actually had her on an episode of Criminology, but she also comes up in many of the cases that we do.
41:19 Speaker 01 Because of her knowledge.
41:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, so, I mean, to have her as a professor, that would be kind of amazing. Koberger posted what appeared to be a university-approved survey on Reddit, asking participants to provide information to understand how emotions and psychological traits influence decision-making when committing a crime. According to later-released documents, students and professors at WSU told investigators that Koberger seemed creepy and intense, with one predicting that he could become the type of professor that harassed and stalked students.
42:01 Speaker 01 That's a pretty profound observation of him.
42:04 Speaker 00 Well, obviously, you know, these students and professors who said that, they're, they're going to turn out to be right. Prosecutors would later say that Koberger spent hours scrolling through, through social media accounts of young women at WSU and the University of Idaho, and may have become fixated on the victims living in the off-campus house. Because that's a big part of this case, right? Why did Brian Koberger choose to attack the residents of this house in Moscow?
42:39 Speaker 01 Out of all the places that he could have chose, why this?
42:43 Speaker 00 Why this one? And why the people in this house? But it also sounds like he's stalking, right, through social media. One student who was in class with Koberger told police he acted aggressively and stared at classmates when he wasn't dominating group discussions. The class often sat through Koberger's lengthy verbal sparring with professors. He tried to come across as the strongest, smartest, most important person in the room. The student had a bad feeling about Koberger. From the moment she met him at orientation in the fall of 2022, Koberger would trail her after class, block her path when she tried to leave conversations,
43:28 Speaker 00 and stare at her with such intensity. She started keeping a tally of their encounters. She caught him aggressively staring at her up to nine times in one class. He also followed her after class.
43:42 Speaker 01 That's so creepy.
43:44 Speaker 00 It's, you know, it's bad when it gets to the point where you have to keep a tally of how many times this is occurring every class. Police documents stated Koberger always seems to want to be in the general area of her and others in the program that didn't want to have anything to do with him. You know why most likely they didn't want to have anything to do with him? Because he was creepy.
44:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:12 Speaker 00 They all said it, right? This guy is staring at women. And I think this is where, you know, some of the incel talk comes in.
44:21 Speaker 01 Right.
44:22 Speaker 00 You know, when he goes through high school and let's say he doesn't have girlfriends and things like that, he doesn't know how to, to talk to these women. He might like them. He might want to go out with them. But what does he do? He just sits there and stares at them.
44:39 Speaker 01 Making everybody very uncomfortable.
44:41 Speaker 00 Well, it's, it's not the way to get a date, that's for sure.
44:44 Speaker 01 And then if they did talk to him, he was, he would, it sounds like from which her accounts were, he blocked them from leaving. That you don't think that's going to creep them out? You're not going to let me leave this conversation?
44:58 Speaker 00 Other accounts shared similarities, mainly that Koberger's presence kept people on edge. You ever been around somebody like that? Who you just felt like something was off and they were on the verge. Like they could go either way.
45:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:16 Speaker 00 They could go off at any minute.
45:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. Been around somebody like that.
45:20 Speaker 00 He was known on campus for his unblinking stares, which his colleagues described as his attempt to assert dominance. Because everyone knows the most dominant person is the one who can hold a stare the longest.
45:36 Speaker 01 That's right. Let's do a blink contest.
45:39 Speaker 00 Or a staring contest, as it's most commonly referred to.
45:46 Speaker 00 One faculty member said he had a keen interest in her undergraduate assistant. Koberger would stand by the assistant's desk, looking over her shoulder as she worked. Another professor was asked to walk the assistant to her car after work just because of Koberger's behavior. One student said that whenever she looked up, Koberger, who was a TA in her class, was always staring. However, he rarely spoke to students. She also felt he would time his exit so he could leave when she did and follow her to her car. Professors and faculty received several complaints about him. Multiple WSU staff
46:30 Speaker 00 met before Christmas of 2022 to discuss their students, but discussions about Koberger dominated the meeting because he was said to be highly problematic.
46:43 Speaker 01 That is not good.
46:44 Speaker 00 No, and how can he not be if he's getting all these complaints, right, levied against him? Apparently, they swapped stories and debated pulling his funding and his TA position. One of the teachers said at the meeting, as quoted by CNN, "Mark my work. I work with predators. If we give him a PhD, that's the guy that in many years, when he is a professor, we will hear is harassing, stalking, and sexually abusing his students." And this is the one thing that just keeps jumping out at me. People in his life, or not even in his life, but people around him, they are seeing all kinds of signs.
47:29 Speaker 01 It's like the writing is on the wall.
47:31 Speaker 00 Right. Now, did they think he was going to be a killer? No, probably not, but they knew something was going to happen. It was just a matter of time. One professor claimed Koberger tried to prevent him from leaving his office. He described this as power tripping. Koberger stood close enough to students to trap them at their desks. He also physically blocked female students trying to leave a professor's office. Students and professors described instances where they had to step between Koberger and others. One faculty member wouldn't leave a female student alone in an office with him.
48:13 Speaker 01 Sounds like no female student should ever be left alone with him.
48:17 Speaker 00 No, and even he had problems with some of the males too, right? Or they had problems with him. In August 2022, a University of Idaho student said she met Coburger in an apartment lobby and directed him towards a pool party. She became uncomfortable with his staring and awkward conversation. And that goes back to my thought, right? I don't believe that this is a guy who ever was comfortable talking to him. And so what did he resort to? Like staring them down, walking after them, stalking them, basically?
49:00 Speaker 01 It's interesting about the abundance of information about him coming out.
49:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, now I don't know how much of this was known ahead of time by everyone. I'm sure certain people knew certain things, but obviously after the murders and after he's identified, then it's all gonna, you know, come pouring out.
49:22 Speaker 01 I mean, we've done cases and I've heard people come forward like, oh yeah, he was like this or she was like that, but not on the level of this.
49:31 Speaker 00 This is almost like everybody he encountered.
49:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:35 Speaker 00 Had something to say about him and none of it was good. In another instance, a male coworker at a bookstore on WSU described acting as a buffer between his female coworker and Coburger who frequented the store. Police also learned that Coburger applied for an internship with the Pullman Police in the fall of 2022. In an essay, he wrote that he wanted to help rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological data in public safety operations.
50:11 Speaker 00 Koberger's WSU classmate Benjamin Roberts told 48 Hours that Koberger seemed comfortable around other people. He was very quick to offer his opinion and thoughts. He would describe things in the most complicated, perhaps academic way possible. It was like he was trying to convince people that he knew what he was talking about. And I'll, I'll be honest, I've known a lot of people like this.
50:35 Speaker 01 Sure, yeah.
50:37 Speaker 00 They want you to believe that they're smart. And they're trying everything in their power to make you believe that. Whether they are or not, some of them aren't that smart, but they're talking in a way that might make you think they are.
50:54 Speaker 01 But it also comes off the exact opposite they're hoping for.
50:59 Speaker 00 A lot of the times it does. One of Koberger's neighbors in Pullman recalled speaking to him about the murders. He said, he brought it up in conversation. He asked if I had heard about the murders, which I did. And then he said, yeah, seems like they have no leads. Seems like it was a crime of passion. At the time of our conversation, it was only a few days after it happened. So there wasn't much details out. Police learned that Koberger registered his car in Washington state on November 18, five days after the murders, and received a new license plate. The car had previously been registered in Pennsylvania,
51:40 Speaker 00 and his Pennsylvania plate was set to expire on November 30. His phone was tracked heading to Moscow before the attack and returning to Pullman. Alright, so they already are looking at him, right? He owns a white Hyundai Elantra, but let's face it, there probably are quite a few of those.
52:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:04 Speaker 00 Around. But when you add in all of the strange things people have said about Brian Koberger, okay, that would make police want to look at him further. And then obviously, the phone tracking. I mean, once they learn that, he's got to be really high up there on their list. Meanwhile, on November 30th, 2022, families and classmates held a candlelight vigil at the University of Idaho. Ethan Chapin's mother, Stacy, said, per ABC, "We are eternally grateful that we spent so much time with him. That's the most important message that we have for you and your families, to make sure
52:48 Speaker 00 that you spend as much time as possible with those people, because time is precious and it's something you can't get back." And that is absolutely true. You can't buy time.
53:00 Speaker 01 You can't.
53:01 Speaker 00 And you can't get back moments that you miss.
53:05 Speaker 01 Wish we could.
53:06 Speaker 00 We all do.
53:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:08 Speaker 00 Kaylee's father, Steve Gonzalez, noted that Kaylee and Madison died together in the same room, in the same bed. On December 7th, police revealed to the public that they were looking for the driver of a white 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Elantra, seen near the victim's house on November 13th. Brian Koberger was stopped by the police in Indiana on December 15th for traffic violations. After his semester ended in December, Koberger and his father drove across the country together in the Hyundai Elantra to get to Pennsylvania for the holidays.
53:50 Speaker 00 The Hancock County Sheriff's Office and Indiana State Police said, "There was no information at the time on the suspect in the Idaho crimes, or specific information on the white Elantra." The state police added, "The trooper, having learned the two had been stopped minutes before by a deputy from the Hancock County Sheriff's Department, who he knew was working just down the interstate from him, used his discretion and released the two men with a verbal warning."
54:21 Speaker 01 So at this point, there's no reason to retain this guy?
54:24 Speaker 00 No, I mean, as far as the...
54:28 Speaker 00 The police in Indiana? I don't think they know anything. I mean, it would be different if there was a warrant out for his arrest, but that would come up, right? And any, uh, quick, easy look up. On December 27th, police recovered a discarded Q-tip from Koberger's parents' house in Pennsylvania. The Idaho State Lab determined the DNA from the trash belonged to the father of the person who left DNA on the knife sheet. Brian Koberger was arrested in Pennsylvania on December 30th, 2022. At the time, police declined to say when he became a suspect, or what brought him to their attention out
55:11 Speaker 00 of, you know, all the thousands of tips that they had received. After he was arrested, Koberger was taken to a state police barracks to be interviewed by Moscow officers, the Idaho State Police, and the FBI. They chatted about the WSU football team, his studies, and his TA position. He said he understood they were engaging in small talk, but he would appreciate it if they told him what they wanted. A detective told him it was because of what happened in Moscow. When asked if he knew what happened, Koberger said yes. When asked if he wanted to talk about it, he responded, "Well, I think I would need a lawyer."
55:53 Speaker 01 Well, at least he's smart about that. I'm sure he learned that in his studies.
55:58 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. I would think a criminology major, you know, he's got a few degrees, going for a PhD, would understand the, the value that an attorney would bring. But what do you think, and if you're the police? Do you know what happened in Moscow? Yes, he knows. People were murdered. Do you want to talk about it? Eh, I think I would need an attorney.
56:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, kind of would feel like, hey, we got our guy.
56:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, and that doesn't mean that person's guilty, but police tend to lean that way, I think. You're not getting off radar. Let's put it that way. He asked what questions they had for him, and if his parents and dog were okay. He finally said he wanted to speak to an attorney, and his interview ended. Public defender Jason LaBarre shared a statement on behalf of Koberger's parents on January 1st, 2023. It read, "First and foremost, we care deeply for the four families who have lost their precious children. There are no words that can adequately express the sadness we feel, and we pray each day for them. We will continue to let the legal process unfold.
57:10 Speaker 00 As a family, we will love and support our son and brother. We have fully cooperated with law enforcement agencies in an attempt to seek the truth and promote his presumption of innocence rather than judge unknown facts and make erroneous assumptions. We respect privacy in this matter as our family and the family suffering loss can move forward through the legal process." I thought that was a very well-written statement. I mean, I think if you're Brian Koberger's family, what else are you gonna say? Obviously, you feel for the victims, the victims' families,
57:51 Speaker 00 but you probably also do not believe that your son is capable of having committed these, you know, vicious horrible murders.
58:01 Speaker 01 You just really hope not, right?
58:03 Speaker 00 Well, don't you have to stand by him?
58:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:07 Speaker 00 Unless and until it's proven, and then even after it's proven, you know, parents will still stand behind. Doesn't mean they agree with what their kids have done, but they're not going to abandon them, some of them.
58:19 Speaker 01 I think that's another nightmare right there. When you know your kid did something unbelievable.
58:26 Speaker 00 And it's proven, yeah, beyond a doubt. Yeah, that would be extremely tough to live with, no doubt. Koberger was extradited to Idaho on January 4th and was charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. Police also searched his apartment and found a reddish-brown stained pillowcase, a black glove, and hair strands.
58:53 Speaker 00 Okay, so you know, they had some stuff to work with.
58:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:57 Speaker 00 They started to zero in on him to the point where they went to Pennsylvania, right, to get some DNA. It turned out to be his dad's, but they knew that somebody in that family left that DNA on that knife sheath.
59:12 Speaker 01 Yep.
59:12 Speaker 00 And then they find some, you know, compelling things in his apartment. But I think that's it for the first part of the Idaho College Murders. You know, like we said, Gibbs, this is a, it's a scary one to think about. You know, whether you have kids in college or not, maybe more so if you do, because it is something that does worry me. But take the college atmosphere out of it. The thought that a stranger could enter your home where you have, you know, let's say multiple people in the home sleeping, and then start viciously attacking and killing people. That is a very frightening thought.
59:55 Speaker 01 It is. And I'm thinking about the two young ladies that luckily survived. And how that is probably, not probably, how that has changed their life, their world.
1:00:10 Speaker 00 Oh, obscured them.
1:00:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:12 Speaker 00 No doubt about it, because you're always going to have the, you know, why did I live, the others didn't, there's going to be survivor's guilt, things like that. But in part two, we'll cover additional information about the crime that was released in the months after Coburger's arrest, his plea deal and speculation on a potential motive. Because like we said upfront, right, that's a big thing in this case. What was his motive? And why did he select the victims he did?
1:00:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:44 Speaker 00 So that's it for part one, but we got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:00:48 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:00:50 Speaker 02 Hey Mike and Gibby, this is Val from Delaware. I've been listening to you guys for a few months now. Started listening to the old stuff and the new stuff, so I've switched back and forth. But I just wanted to call. It's Christmas Day. It's the first year my two kids, who are 21 and 19, are doing their own thing for the rest of the day. So I'm going home, gonna listen to True Crime all the time, and reminisce about my fiance. You all have gotten me through some hard days with him and my dad being gone here at the holidays. So I just wanted to thank you guys and wish you a Merry Christmas, because you're really getting me through. And I also hope you all have a Happy New Year. Have a great one.
1:01:35 Speaker 02 Bye.
1:01:36 Speaker 00 Thanks so much for calling in. We appreciate you. We love you.
1:01:41 Speaker 01 We do.
1:01:42 Speaker 00 And I'm glad the podcast can help. I know that, you know, the holidays are a really tough time.
1:01:49 Speaker 01 They're emotional.
1:01:50 Speaker 00 They are.
1:01:51 Speaker 01 And if we can help out in any way, we're glad we can.
1:01:54 Speaker 00 Makes us feel good. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike...
1:02:01 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:02:02 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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