Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Steve Pankey About this episode Steve Pankey was a husband, father, car salesman, and Idaho gubernatorial candidate. He was recently convicted of murdering 12-year-old Jonelle Matthews, bringing closure to a case that had been cold for decades.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Steve Pankey and the murder of Jonelle Matthews. Jonelle went missing in December of 1984 after arriving at her Colorado home. When her parents got home, they became frantic, and a massive search ensued, but the case went cold. Jonelle's remains weren't found until 2019. Steve Pankey had been a person of interest for years and made several incriminating statements. But would the evidence against him be enough for a conviction?
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Transcript 10,637 words · 4 speakers
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 418 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 I'm doing good. How about yourself?
1:59 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. You and I just talked on Patreon about the cold, the snow, what we're watching, the possibility that we'd like to move south to get away from the cold. But
2:13 Speaker 01 Those things pop in your head when you're, uh, you know, minus one.
2:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't see it happening, but it's, you know, we can all dream. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Jim Nickel.
2:24 Speaker 01 Hey, Nickel.
2:25 Speaker 00 Pure Pont Limkin.
2:26 Speaker 01 Ah, Limkin, what's up?
2:28 Speaker 00 Tabitha Bryant.
2:29 Speaker 01 Hey, Brian.
2:30 Speaker 00 Jelissa Crasco.
2:31 Speaker 01 Ah, Crasco.
2:33 Speaker 00 Mary Kay Cordova.
2:34 Speaker 01 Hey, Cordova.
2:35 Speaker 00 Deena Devaney.
2:36 Speaker 01 Devaney, that sounds cool.
2:38 Speaker 00 Bill Gerton.
2:39 Speaker 01 Hey, Gerton.
2:40 Speaker 00 Barbara Fox.
2:41 Speaker 01 What's up, Fox?
2:42 Speaker 00 Scott.
2:42 Speaker 01 Hey, Scott.
2:43 Speaker 00 Kylie.
2:44 Speaker 01 Well, thanks, Kylie.
2:45 Speaker 00 Japonica Ferguson.
2:47 Speaker 01 The Ferguson of the Fergus clan.
2:49 Speaker 00 A, a son of Fergus.
2:51 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:52 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Michelle Aspden.
2:56 Speaker 01 What'd you say?
2:57 Speaker 00 Aspden.
2:58 Speaker 01 I just want to make sure I heard it right.
2:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, I have to like really enunciate that one.
3:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, thank you.
3:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, appreciate the, the new support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Victoria Stebbings.
3:11 Speaker 01 Thanks, Stebbins.
3:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, appreciate all the Patreon support that we get. So Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on Unsolved where we're talking about Christina Kettlewell. And we've called this episode, The Eight Day Bride, because she'd only been married for eight days.
3:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:30 Speaker 00 When her body was found, uh, near her honeymoon cottage in Ontario.
3:35 Speaker 01 It's a really good case.
3:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on. I really don't even want to give anything away, to be honest with you. I think people will enjoy it and they should definitely check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:50 Speaker 01 I am ready.
3:51 Speaker 00 We're talking about Steve Panky. Panky was a husband, father, car salesman. He ran for governor of Idaho at one point. But he was recently convicted of murdering a 12-year-old girl. Bringing closure to a case that's been cold for decades. Gloria and Jim Matthews, met and married in California. They had their first daughter, Jennifer, within a year and a half of their marriage. And they adopted a little girl named Janelle. Three years later, when she was six weeks old. The family moved fairly often. At one point, they lived in Beirut, Lebanon before returning to California.
4:36 Speaker 00 Okay.
4:37 Speaker 01 That's really relocating.
4:40 Speaker 00 But change, right? Big difference between California and Beirut. In 1978, they settled in Greeley, Colorado. So Jim could work as an administrator at a local school. And you and I talk about Colorado a lot. We spent quite a bit of time there for work.
5:00 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
5:01 Speaker 00 I really love Colorado.
5:04 Speaker 01 I do, too.
5:05 Speaker 00 But you talk about, you know, a change. Okay, you're in Beirut, you're in California. Now you're in Colorado. Depending on what parts you live in, you know, those places can be very, very different.
5:19 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. And we'll be back out in Colorado in September.
5:22 Speaker 00 For Crime Con.
5:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. Janelle's childhood friend, Deanna Ross, said Greeley was considered a safe town. And she and Janelle often went out bike riding together. Janelle Matthews was in the seventh grade when she disappeared. She was an outgoing girl who enjoyed performing, whether that was doing skits in church or singing with the honor choir at school.
5:50 Speaker 01 Probably liked doing little skits, too, didn't you?
5:52 Speaker 00 I did sing in the choir.
5:53 Speaker 01 Did you?
5:54 Speaker 00 When I was younger, like in elementary school. And I was always doing like talent shows or with my friends. Yeah, putting on skits.
6:04 Speaker 01 I seen that eight millimeter film of you back in the day.
6:09 Speaker 01 Sitting at a table with a fake microphone, you know, talking true crime.
6:15 Speaker 00 Doing the podcast.
6:16 Speaker 01 Who would have thought?
6:17 Speaker 00 That's funny, because.
6:18 Speaker 01 Your dream came true.
6:19 Speaker 00 That's funny, because I still have that eight track tape of your failed record.
6:26 Speaker 00 Singing attempt.
6:28 Speaker 01 I'm surprised it didn't make it.
6:30 Speaker 00 Gloria Matthews told the Fort Collins, Coloradoan that Janelle was strong in everything. She was strong physically. She was strong willed all throughout her life. Even when she was a little girl, she knew what she wanted and she let you know. Her friend Deanna recalled that she was really theatrical and dramatic and just the center of the room. And I think a lot of people listening will probably either have or know of someone just like this.
7:02 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
7:03 Speaker 00 In their life, you know, if you have a couple of kids, you might have one who's like this, another one who's a little more shy and reserved. Now, do you want two or three of these? Maybe not.
7:16 Speaker 01 Be a bit much.
7:17 Speaker 00 Might make it hard, but you know, if you have a more than one, chances are you're going to have a child that's like this, a little more strong willed than most and is not shy to let you know exactly what they want.
7:34 Speaker 01 And they kind of like to garner some attention.
7:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, they like to be the center of attention. On December 20th, 1984, Janelle participated in her school choir's Christmas concert. The performance was broadcast on the city's local network. And I don't know if places still have these, but I remember like in the eighties, that was kind of a a big deal. Like, you know, every place had their own little public access channel.
8:07 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:08 Speaker 00 And sometimes you would see like a, a city council meeting on it. And I always thought, who in the heck wants to watch this stuff?
8:18 Speaker 01 I remember seeing some of those.
8:19 Speaker 00 But I was a kid too.
8:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. And then you'd have somebody doing some cooking thing.
8:24 Speaker 00 Yes. But I mean, it wasn't like Bob Ross doing his painting.
8:28 Speaker 01 Oh, no, no.
8:28 Speaker 00 These were very low. This was low production. This was amateur type stuff. Janelle's parents did not attend the concert that evening. Her mother was traveling to Los Angeles to visit her sick father for Christmas. And Jim Matthews was at his older daughter's basketball game. All right, a little rough that, you know, this little girl's got a, a Christmas concert and neither of her parents could, can attend, but you got a sick dad. You got another child who's got another event.
9:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:04 Speaker 00 That can often happen in a family where you have multiple children.
9:07 Speaker 01 I mean, we've all been there, right? I mean, you're up on stage and you're looking out, trying to find somebody you know, and there's just, there's nobody there.
9:13 Speaker 00 Just nobody there for you.
9:15 Speaker 01 And you're like, oh, where's, where's my, where's my family? Where's my?
9:19 Speaker 00 And then sometimes you have it where you're up on stage and there's literally no one in the audience and that has to be even tougher.
9:26 Speaker 01 That is, especially today, you know, in today's world, I'm up on stage and I can't even get the, uh, people that should be there, there. Kind of hard to do that YMCA song all to myself when I'm performing my routine.
9:42 Speaker 00 Family friend Russell Ross and his daughter Deanna dropped Janelle off at home after the concert. Everything seemed normal at the time. Janelle was excited to go to school the next day, which was the last day before break started so she could give her friends homemade Christmas presents she'd been working on. She was also eager to perform in her church's Christmas play the following week.
10:06 Speaker 01 Man, I love Christmas break back in, back when I was young.
10:09 Speaker 00 I love every break from school back in the day. Christmas break, uh, especially summer break. That was a, a time to celebrate. Russell Ross noticed that the garage door was half open, but this was not unusual. Janelle got out of the vehicle, walked to the door and flipped on a light to let Ross know that she was safely inside. Jim Matthews got home at 9:30 PM and headed downstairs. The TV was on and a space heater was running next to an easy chair. Janelle's shoes had been put away. He called out her name and got no response. Jim didn't think anything of it and he wrapped a Christmas present before he went upstairs to look in Janelle's bedroom.
10:54 Speaker 00 But he became worried when he saw that she wasn't there. Jim walked into the kitchen and saw that Janelle had written down a message for him on a blackboard near the phone. Around 8:30 PM, about 15 to 20 minutes after she was dropped off, Janelle answered a call from one of the teachers at the school where Jim worked who needed a substitute. Jennifer Matthews arrived home from her basketball game around 10:00 PM and had no idea where Janelle was. So obviously Gibbs, at this point, Jim was extremely worried, right? The girls always kept him informed of their whereabouts. So he started calling friends to try to get some answers.
11:39 Speaker 00 But no one knew where Janelle was. So Jim called the police to report her missing. Now, I think, you know, people can put themselves in his shoes. Now, that's a frightening situation that you would just never wish upon anyone.
12:00 Speaker 01 Yeah. It'd be so tough too, right? I mean, it's not like today where almost every kid has a cellphone. It's one of those things you have to call around and try to get a hold of their friends and say, hey, is she over there?
12:11 Speaker 00 Well, let's face it, 1984 was a very different time, especially as it pertains to trying to get a hold of someone or determining someone's whereabouts, right? I can open up my iPhone right now and tell you exactly where each one of my girls are, or at least where their phones are.
12:34 Speaker 01 Right.
12:35 Speaker 00 Normally, they always have their phones. I can text them. I can call them. But to your point, in 1984... You know, we had nothing but landlines. So you are calling friends' houses, talking to their parents. I mean, what else could you do? You're getting in your car, maybe, and driving around.
12:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, not everybody was as cool as you that had five pagers strapped to you.
13:01 Speaker 00 Okay, I don't think they had pagers in 1984 yet, but.
13:04 Speaker 01 If they did, you'd have five strapped to you. This is my work one. This is.
13:10 Speaker 00 This is my one just for Gibby.
13:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:13 Speaker 00 So, you know, he reported Janelle missing. Officers searched the neighborhood and the home, even dusting for prints to collect potential evidence of foul play, which I don't think, you know, is a bad idea. It is a little different from what we've heard in many cases stemming from, you know, back in the 1980s. A lot of times, parents were told, well, you know, she'll turn back up or whatever.
13:40 Speaker 01 Right.
13:41 Speaker 00 But they obviously took this much more seriously than some police did, you know, back in the day. They dusted for fingerprints. One piece of evidence was hidden from the public for many years. And it was a rake that had been used to destroy shoe prints in the snow. The rake came from the Matthews garage.
14:06 Speaker 01 Well, someone had at least the awareness to get rid of their shoe prints.
14:12 Speaker 00 Yeah. So there was some thought.
14:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:14 Speaker 00 Put into that. Jennifer told the Fort Collins, Colorado, that the whole family spoke to the police, but Jim was asked the most questions and also did a polygraph. And that doesn't surprise me at all. You know, is the dad going to be probably the focus of the investigation when a daughter goes missing? And I would say, yeah, I mean, everybody's going to be looked at. But if you had to pick who's going to be the focus, a lot of times, it's the husband or the dad.
14:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's just the logical person to look at.
14:52 Speaker 00 Well, because why? Oftentimes, that's who it turns out to be.
14:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think stats prove that.
14:58 Speaker 00 They do. Months passed with no new leads. Janelle's case received national attention. And former President Ronald Reagan mentioned her name in a March 1985 speech highlighting missing children. Two months later, Janelle's missing poster was printed on the side of milk cartons distributed around the country. I know you and I have talked about that before. You know, that was a big thing growing up. It's something I really remember. Sitting at the table, eating my cereal, looking at, you know, these milk cartons with these pictures of missing kids on them.
15:38 Speaker 01 Your Fruit Loops?
15:39 Speaker 00 I was more of a Cap'n Crunch.
15:41 Speaker 01 Okay.
15:42 Speaker 00 You know, type of guy, but understand why they did it. It's a great way to get that information out. But as a kid who's sitting there just trying to enjoy their cereal, was it a little jarring, a little scarring? Maybe.
15:59 Speaker 01 Could have been for some.
16:00 Speaker 00 I think for some, it probably was. Janelle's case went cold and eventually became the oldest unsolved missing person case in Weld County. Steve Panky, a local man, was on police radar from the very beginning. Panky lived about two miles from the Matthews family with his wife and young son. He worked as a used car salesman. He'd been living in Greeley since 1973, but he also had a history of trouble with law enforcement. In 1977, a woman he was seeing accused him of date rape. Now, Panky maintains they had consensual sex. His charge was later dismissed.
16:42 Speaker 00 And that could be for a number of reasons. It could be that, you know, was a he said, she said thing. They just didn't have enough evidence. It could also be what we've seen time and time again, which is that, you know, sexual crimes in the seventies and the eighties, they just were not taken very seriously.
17:03 Speaker 01 They really weren't, unfortunately.
17:05 Speaker 00 At this time, Panky was a youth minister at Sunny View Church of the Nazarene. He was asked to leave, but returned sporadically. He officially left in the spring of 1978. The Matthews family joined the church that summer. They didn't know Steve Panky. Okay. What does that mean when you're asked to leave the church?
17:31 Speaker 01 Not good, right?
17:31 Speaker 00 No, there's obviously some reason for that. Now, how he was able to return sporadically, and I'm not sure how that all worked. On December 19th, 1984, Panky was arrested for making a scene at a local bank. His future defense attorney, Anthony Vors, told 48 Hours that he argued with a teller and the police were called. He said, that's the kind of thing that happened to Mr. Panky over the years. He's had periodic sort of spats with people because he's an irascible, prickly guy. Irascible and prickly.
18:11 Speaker 01 You don't hear that often.
18:12 Speaker 00 No, you actually don't. But, you know, if you're in a bank and, you know, you're arguing with the teller, how long is it going to take before the police are called? Probably not very long.
18:25 Speaker 01 No, no, I mean, they're not going to put up with that kind of abuse.
18:30 Speaker 00 Well, my thought is a bank would be probably more quick to call the police than most places. And let's face it, they got a lot of money. They're, you know, they're always on guard for robbery. So somebody raising their voice or causing a ruckus is going to get their attention very quickly. After Janelle Matthews went missing, Steve Panky inserted himself into the investigation and made suspicious statements to law enforcement and his wife, which we'll talk about in depth later in the episode. But you hear about that a lot, right? In certain cases where someone inserts themselves
19:14 Speaker 00 into the investigation. They start asking a lot of questions or, you know, they want to know what the investigators know, or they just start showing up at different scenes. And oftentimes, it's because they have some level of involvement.
19:31 Speaker 01 I mean, those were red flags if you couldn't recognize them.
19:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. I don't know that the police always do. In 1987, Panky and his family moved to Idaho. He tried to get involved in politics by running for sheriff three times, his local municipal council, and even lieutenant governor, but he was never elected. Panky ran for governor in 2014 and 2018, but failed both times. So you can't say that this guy was a quitter, but at a certain point, if you've run for, you know, all types of different levels of public office and never once won, maybe you think about giving up. What most
20:18 Speaker 00 people probably wouldn't think is, you know what? I'll just keep going to a higher level.
20:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, they didn't want me to be the local guy, but I think I got a chance to be the state guy.
20:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure they're going to want me to run the entire state. According to Oxygen, his campaign poster from 2018 described him as a Republican candidate with traditional core values with a biblical and constitutional perspective. Panky promised to protect Second Amendment rights and to not take donations from lobbyists. He was quoted on his campaign poster as saying, "I intend to keep simple issues simple and bring together competent people to resolve Idaho's complex issues." All right, some of that stuff sounds okay, but he earned just 1.4% of votes in the Republican
21:15 Speaker 00 primary in 2018, which meant he was eliminated before the general election even took place.
21:24 Speaker 01 Man, that has to suck. To want to be something and you find out that canceled at the beginning of it.
21:32 Speaker 00 Before it even really starts. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, you put a lot of time and money into all these different campaigns and, you know, to just get beaten down at every turn. I'm surprised that he just kept going.
21:49 Speaker 01 Very determined.
21:51 Speaker 00 But maybe also a little misguided. Like we said, right? If you can't get elected to your local council, then how do you shoot for lieutenant governor and then governor? It just, it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
22:07 Speaker 01 It doesn't.
22:09 Speaker 00 My other thought was, you know, what does being a car salesman have to do with qualifying you to be sheriff? And maybe that's why he was not elected three times.
22:22 Speaker 01 Strong possibility.
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24:55 Speaker 00 Over 30 years after she went missing, on July 23rd, 2019, Janelle Matthews' remains were found in rural Weld County, Colorado, by oil and gas workers digging for a pipeline. 30 years is a long time for your family to wonder, you know, what happened to you? Are you alive? Are you not alive? If you're dead, where are, you know, your remains? It really is a long time. The workers found a set of human bones, including a skull with intact teeth and braces. Scraps of blue and red fabric were also found. Janelle was last
25:35 Speaker 00 seen, wearing a red blouse, gray skirt, and navy blue sweater vest. Her remains were found 20 miles southeast of her home in Greeley. An autopsy determined she died of a single gunshot wound to the head. Authorities were unable to recover usable DNA samples from her body. And that doesn't really surprise me. 30 years is a long time.
25:58 Speaker 01 It is a long time.
25:59 Speaker 00 Greeley Police confirmed the remains were Janelle's on July 25th and said the case was now an active homicide investigation.
26:10 Speaker 01 Ramping it up.
26:11 Speaker 00 Well, you have to, right? At that point, the body's been found. There's a gunshot wound to the head. You have to treat it as a homicide. Gloria and Jim Matthews had moved to Costa Rica by this point and were shocked the remains were found. Jim told Nine News, "We had been resigned to the fact that we would probably never know what happened to her, and this is just an absolute miracle about how she was found."
26:40 Speaker 01 Amazing.
26:41 Speaker 00 Well, and a lot of times it is, right? It's just a kind of a freak occurrence. Someone digging, in this case, up a pipeline. He said, "This crew, if they had dug up 15 to 20 feet on one side or the other, they never would have found her. So we really believe that God has provided a miracle for this to happen." In September 2019, Steve Pankey spoke to several news outlets about the fact that he was considered a person of interest. So it wasn't, you know, like he didn't know, but you think about that kind of hanging over your head.
27:24 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
27:24 Speaker 00 For so many years.
27:26 Speaker 01 It's a long, long time.
27:27 Speaker 00 Also, do you think that had something to do with the fact that he never got elected to anything?
27:32 Speaker 01 Could have had a part to play in it.
27:34 Speaker 00 That he was a person of interest in a disappearance.
27:38 Speaker 01 Of a 12-year-old girl.
27:40 Speaker 00 Of a 12-year-old girl. He told local outlet KTV that he provided the DNA sample in case his home was searched. He claimed he offered to take a polygraph, but investigators didn't want to do it. And you and I talk about polygraphs a lot. I talked about it on Patreon that I've been watching a lot of Joe Kenda.
28:02 Speaker 01 Right.
28:03 Speaker 00 On homicide hunter. And one of the things that he always says is that he doesn't really care for polygraphs, but he did say a couple of times in different episodes that he doesn't care what the results are. He cares about the statements that are made or the answers given to some of the questions, which I never actually thought about it that way.
28:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:28 Speaker 00 He, you know, he kind of acts like he doesn't believe in the science all that much, but you're still getting answers to certain questions that you can then run with.
28:40 Speaker 01 And that's what he focuses.
28:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's what he focused on. Pinky told the Idaho Stateman that he had never met Janelle Matthews or her family. He claimed he was home with his wife on the night Janelle went missing and their vehicle was packed up for a road trip to California the next day. They planned to leave at 5am on December 21st, 1984. They returned to Colorado on December 26th and heard news of Janelle, but according to him, this was the first time he'd ever heard about her. He claimed he met with an FBI agent at the Greeley Police Station soon after he
29:20 Speaker 00 returned because his father-in-law told him someone asked him about getting rid of a body. His father-in-law worked at a cemetery. Pinky was suspicious because of Janelle's disappearance. So he reported it to the FBI rather than the police. I don't know what I would think if my father-in-law said, hey, you know, somebody asked me about getting rid of a body. That would be a strange conversation.
29:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, for most people, for you, maybe not.
29:53 Speaker 00 For me, maybe not. Pinky said he had never been formally interviewed by the police about Janelle's disappearance beyond his interview with the FBI. He noted that he left Greeley in 1987 and had not been back. So I don't know, Gibbs, you know, when we talk about him running for, you know, all this stuff in Idaho, I don't know how many people would have actually known that he was on the radar for the, you know, the disappearance of Janelle Matthews. That might not have been a common thing that was known. And if not, it just means just people didn't like you for you.
30:31 Speaker 01 That might be even worse.
30:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, cuz it's like they didn't have anything to hold against you possibly. They just didn't believe in you.
30:37 Speaker 01 Nothing worse than when people don't believe in you.
30:40 Speaker 00 Two detectives came to his home on August 15th for an interview, but he told them he would only talk if his attorney was present. On August 19th, law enforcement asked for a DNA sample and he gave it. He thought the police would stop investigating him after this, but they didn't. Pinky claimed he was shocked when investigators searched his Idaho home on September 4th, 2019. He spoke about his past troubles and said he had a bad relationship with the Greeley police because of the stigma of being accused of rape. He said he was charged with up to 20 arbitrary misdemeanors such as battery and harassment by phone.
31:25 Speaker 00 He had multiple trials and won all of them. Now, the statesman couldn't verify his statement at the time because Colorado courts didn't have an online record system, but they did request copies of his criminal record in Weld County via mail. Pinky said he decided to go public because he wanted to show he had nothing to hide.
31:49 Speaker 01 Well, that's one way to do it though, right? If you really didn't have anything to do with it, yeah, get the public involved.
31:55 Speaker 00 Well, I think you could look at it one of two ways. If you really didn't have anything to do with it, okay, you're gonna lay everything out in the open and hope that the truth comes to light. If you really did have something to do with it, then you're gonna go big and bold in public to try to prove to people that you didn't have something to do with it.
32:17 Speaker 01 Right, yeah. Sell the public on it.
32:20 Speaker 00 And maybe even the police.
32:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:22 Speaker 00 Cause could it be possible that people would start to think, hey, there's no way this guy would be, you know, doing all this press or talking if he actually did this. Panky told the Idaho Statesman, you hear these people all the time. Their place has been searched. The police say, well, they're a person of interest. The person of interest says, no comment, no nothing, won't talk to you. They look guilty. I would like to have my name clear. I'd be willing to take a lie detector test. I'd be willing to take a voice stress test.
32:57 Speaker 01 Voice stress test.
32:58 Speaker 00 Well, if you just take that comment at face value, you would think, right? This is a person who has nothing to hide. And they're willing to let police give them whatever examination they want to. That's how confident they are. Greeley Police Commander Rory Smith told Nine News that Panky previously made repeated efforts to speak to detectives about the case. But when detectives tried to talk to him on August 15th, he refused to answer questions, but did submit his DNA. He remained a person of interest because of inconsistencies in his statements. And that's something that you've talked about a lot.
33:42 Speaker 00 Now, we're also talking about a lot of years here.
33:46 Speaker 01 We are.
33:47 Speaker 00 So making statements over a long period of time. Do you remember what you said?
33:53 Speaker 01 It's gonna be tough.
33:54 Speaker 00 It's gonna be tough if you're lying to keep it all straight. In August 2020, it was announced that a Weld County grand jury would investigate the death of Janelle Matthews. On October 9th, 2020, Steve Panky was indicted for first degree murder, second degree kidnapping with a weapon, and two sentence enhancing crimes. Investigators believe he abducted Janelle Matthews from her home between 8:30 and 9:30 PM on December 20th, 1984, and shot her in the head. At some point afterwards, Pankey was arrested in Meridian, Idaho. On October 12th, 2020, DA Michael Wark said after the arrest,
34:39 Speaker 00 there was no definitive DNA link between Pankey and Janelle Matthews. Pankey became a suspect because of his unusual behavior and the way he inserted himself into the investigation. So, I mean, a grand jury indicted him.
34:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:58 Speaker 00 For murder. But so far, we haven't talked about a lot of strong evidence. And I think the DA even said it, right? Unusual behavior. He inserted himself into the investigation. I get it. That's how you become a suspect. But there has to be more to put someone away for murder. Authorities said Pankey made direct and veiled statements about Janelle in civil and criminal court documents. In a 1999 filing with the Idaho Supreme Court, Pankey wrote that his conviction for causing a disturbance in a bank
35:38 Speaker 00 was an attempt to force him to become an informant in Janelle's disappearance. He feared he might get the death penalty for revealing the location of her body. He also wrote in this filing, per oxygen, without a deal, this case will never be solved. Okay. You know, you're saying some things now that really make you look guilty.
36:07 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure. I mean, you don't want them to find the body? Why? Because you had something to do with it.
36:13 Speaker 00 And you're afraid you'll get the death penalty? According to the Fort Collins, Coloradoan, in an April 2003 pro se court pleading, Pankey wrote that the Matthews family should be informed that Janelle died before crossing 10th Street and not to give the family hope. All right, this is not something that, you know, a person in a bar said they overheard or that this guy told them. This happened in court. It's very well documented. Now, how does he know that stuff unless he was involved?
36:52 Speaker 01 I mean, that's the big question, right?
36:54 Speaker 00 One affidavit mentioned that Pinky briefly attended the same church as the Matthews family. He also had a habit of watching kids walk home from the middle school that Janelle attended. And that's a very scary thought to me because who else besides some type of sick predator wants to sit and watch a bunch of middle schoolers walk home? Unless one of those is your kid.
37:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:22 Speaker 00 And you're just worried about them. But if you don't have any kids and your pastime is watching middle schoolers walk home.
37:30 Speaker 01 There's a problem.
37:31 Speaker 00 There's a problem. Pinky also knew about and discussed the fact that a rake was used to obliterate shoe impressions in the snow outside the Matthews home on the night of the abduction. And we said it early on, right? This information was never given out to the public.
37:50 Speaker 01 No. So you, for you to know, you had to have some type of involvement, right?
37:56 Speaker 00 Or you heard it from law enforcement. There's really no other way around it. But it also goes back to you and I talking about why police hold certain things back. And here's a great example of that. Maybe you catch somebody saying something that they couldn't possibly know.
38:16 Speaker 01 Man, I like the concept of holding something back in hopes that you will catch somebody that knows that information that shouldn't know it unless they're involved.
38:26 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, I think it's why police do it. And then the other reason is to, you know, kind of weed out people who confess to a crime, but then get the information wrong. That would be another reason as well.
38:40 Speaker 01 I still can't wrap my head around that kind of stuff.
38:43 Speaker 00 No, it's shocking how many people confess to crimes that they did not commit. Finally, Pinky owned a gun at the time of the kidnapping. Steve Pinky went to trial on October 13th, 2021. DA Michael Rourke acknowledged during opening statements that there was no forensic evidence linking Pinky to the case, but he made incriminating statements. So again, you know, he's coming right out. And I think he almost has to, right? And telling the jury, hey, we're not going to have this bombshell. DNA slash forensic evidence that is going to conclusively prove that Panky
39:27 Speaker 00 killed Janelle Matthews. But we're going to give you a whole bunch of other stuff that hopefully is going to, you know, convince you that he did. On January 16th, 1985, Panky walked into the Greeley Police Department falsely claiming to be a Baptist minister, who heard a pastoral confession about Janelle's disappearance. Wow. And, you know, we said he inserted himself into the investigation. I mean, this is a little bit more than that. This was just his first attempt at seeing whether or not he was on, you know, in the
40:08 Speaker 00 investigation's radar. But that's a first for me. I've never heard of someone doing that. You know, my thought has always been, if you were a murderer, wouldn't you just want to lay low? Wouldn't you just want to try to stay off the radar?
40:27 Speaker 01 I would think so.
40:28 Speaker 00 It doesn't seem like you'd want to walk into the police station at any point in time for anything.
40:34 Speaker 01 No.
40:35 Speaker 00 And especially to claim that you were a Baptist minister and you heard a confession about this young girl's disappearance.
40:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, now you just opened up the window of opportunity for the police.
40:48 Speaker 00 Starting in the mid 90s, Panky consistently wrote letters and legal filings that included references to Janelle and mentioned him being the subject of a capital murder investigation. The prosecution argued that Panky would have seen kidnapping and killing Janelle as a way to get back at the police and Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene, the church he was asked to leave in 1977. Panky also had a personal vendetta against Russell Ross, the man who dropped Janelle off after the concert. Panky was reportedly angry with Ross over changes made at the local 7-Up soda plant while the two of them worked there. Okay,
41:33 Speaker 00 these are Arguments made by the prosecution, I have to admit that they seem pretty thin as motives go. No, he's trying to get back at the police. He's trying to get back at the church. He's upset with this Russell Ross guy over something that happened at work. And so he's going to kill a 12-year-old girl who had nothing to do with any of these things. I'm just saying, Gibbs, as a juror, those might be tough motives for me to latch on to.
42:09 Speaker 01 Oh, I think they'd be that for almost anybody.
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43:30 Speaker 00 Panky's ex-wife Angela Hicks was a key witness at trial. She testified that he was extremely controlling during their marriage and didn't allow her to drive, listen to the radio, or watch TV.
43:44 Speaker 01 Okay, talking about limitations.
43:46 Speaker 00 Now, we've talked about controlling behavior many, many times. When has it ever been good? And I'd say never in our case, because we're always talking about a killer, right? Exhibiting controlling behavior. But you think about living with someone, being married to someone who is so controlling that you can't drive, you can't listen to the radio, you can't even watch TV. What can I do? Cooking clean for you? Is that it?
44:17 Speaker 01 It sounds like it. That's it. Don't you dare listen to that radio.
44:21 Speaker 00 Well, it's shocking that she was his ex-wife, right? How long is that marriage going to last?
44:28 Speaker 01 Not very long. Probably as long as it did.
44:31 Speaker 00 He exhibited unusual behavior around the time of Janelle's disappearance. Panky's grandparents wanted him to visit them in Big Bear, California for Christmas 1984. Panky asked his dad for money for the trip, but he made it clear they weren't going. Angela testified per Nine News, "To me, it was like he was wanting his dad to send him the money, but there was no plan to go." They later called Steve's mom to tell them they weren't going to California. But on December 21st, Steve told her they were going after all. Angela asked him who would take care of their two dogs. She testified, "Steve said, 'Don't worry about the dogs. The dogs are gone.'"
45:15 Speaker 00 Angela said, "The dogs are gone." He said, "Don't worry about the dogs. I dumped the dogs. Get us ready to go." And she never saw the dogs again. Now, if you can't drive, you can't listen to the radio, and you can't watch TV, that's one thing.
45:31 Speaker 01 Right.
45:32 Speaker 00 But if you find out that your husband did away with your dogs, if the first three weren't deal breakers, that one has to be.
45:42 Speaker 01 You would hope so.
45:43 Speaker 00 Angela testified they left early on December 22nd. Panky abruptly ended the trip on December 25th after getting into an argument with his father. While they were driving home, Panky asked Angela to turn on the radio, even though he normally didn't allow her to listen to it. She testified, as quoted by Oxygen, "In my flipping around, I came to a portion of a news report. They indicated that a girl had gone missing from Greeley, Colorado, and he wanted to hear that. And then he wanted me to keep flipping the channels to see if he could hear anything more about it."
46:22 Speaker 01 Kind of hungry for that information, wasn't he?
46:24 Speaker 00 Once they were back in Greeley on December 26th, Panky stopped at a store and bought multiple newspapers. He then asked Angela to read him articles about Janelle's disappearance. He asked her to read each one at least three times.
46:40 Speaker 01 It's really sick if you think about how he's acting. It's like he's excited.
46:45 Speaker 00 I think he is. It's what we hear about killers all the time. You know, is this a way to kind of relive what they did? They want to hear about, you know, what investigators are saying about the case, what the news is saying about the case. A month after Janelle's disappearance, their church was putting together a search group. And the pastor said he heard a message from God that Janelle would be found alive. Panky shouted "false prophet" and had to be escorted out of the church.
47:20 Speaker 01 Okay, wow. I mean, little things like that start to add up.
47:25 Speaker 00 Well, and I think that's probably what we're seeing in this trial, right? There's not one big, huge piece of evidence that proves that he did it, but jurors are probably putting all of this together and saying, yeah, he did. Panky made other strange comments about the case over the years. In 1999, he brought up the case again when Angela learned he hadn't paid rent. He said he used the money for legal fees because the police were persecuting him because he wouldn't tell them what they wanted to know about Janelle Matthews. It had been years since she'd heard about the case. So she asked for clarification.
48:08 Speaker 00 Janelle Matthews? He responded, "Do you really think I would hurt her when she looked so much like you?"
48:16 Speaker 01 Whoa.
48:17 Speaker 00 Yes. And I think that testimony right there would make a lot of people stop and really think about what that could mean. As reported by Nine News, Angela testified that his response made her blood run cold. She thought to herself, "Oh God, please don't let anything have happened to her because she looked like me." And it wouldn't be the first time, right, that a killer has sought out their victims because they looked like someone in their life.
48:50 Speaker 01 Oh, I think that's kind of common.
48:52 Speaker 00 Especially someone with whom they're not happy, or they have an issue with, you know, they're, they don't like their mom, they don't like their, their wife, whoever it might be. Their son Carl was murdered in 2008. The day before his memorial service, Pinky walked up to their son's urn and mentioned Janelle again. Angela testified, "It's the only time I ever saw that much emotion from him." Very choked up, he bent and kissed the urn, and he said, "I hope God didn't allow this to happen because of Janelle Matthews." So either this guy is saying some of the most incriminating, off-the-wall
49:36 Speaker 00 stuff ever, or his wife is making all of this up to get back at him. There's only two options.
49:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, it could be a little bit of mix, or no?
49:45 Speaker 00 No, I think it's probably all or nothing.
49:47 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, you know what they say about a scorned woman?
49:50 Speaker 00 What do they say?
49:51 Speaker 01 Don't make them scorn.
49:53 Speaker 00 Pinky's defense attorney argued that Pinky wasn't a killer. He was a busybody who was interested in true crime and liked to insert himself into things. He also inserted himself into two other murder investigations in 1997 and 2003.
50:11 Speaker 00 You know, you got a lot of people who are interested in true crime. They follow certain cases. I think that his defense attorney is trying to do something that's very smart. He's got to combat all of these strange things that his client has said over the years. And so, you know, he's trying to weave it into, wow, he's just a true crime enthusiast, and he's also done this in other cases. It doesn't mean anything. His defense attorney introduced an alternate suspect, Norris Drake, the adult son of a former neighbor who lived across the street from the Matthews. Drake passed away in 2007. Another tactic, right?
50:56 Speaker 00 Sometimes used by defense attorneys to raise reasonable doubt.
51:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's what you're trying to do.
51:02 Speaker 00 Here's an alternative suspect. Oh, and this person just happened to have passed away, so they can't defend themselves.
51:11 Speaker 01 Which is awesome for a defense attorney.
51:13 Speaker 00 That might have gone into the factoring of who to choose. I don't know. Drake's sister testified that he was home watching a comedy special on the night Janelle disappeared. However, CBS reported that Drake was missing for several hours that night. Law enforcement did question Drake, but didn't pursue him because his family had an alibi for him.
51:37 Speaker 01 It's always good when families stick together.
51:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, and they can be truthful and they can also lie.
51:43 Speaker 01 They can.
51:44 Speaker 00 We've seen that happen. The defense noted that Drake showed an interest in young girls, per his ex-girlfriend's testimony, and he knew the detail about the footprints that were destroyed at the crime scene. Steve Panky got on the stand and admitted he lied about having information in Janelle's case. He insisted he wasn't involved in her disappearance or murder and never knew the Matthews family. He said he made up most of his claims out of bitterness. According to the Fort Collins, Colorado, and he testified that he wanted to protect himself in case he was ever called to testify against anyone in the case, especially
52:25 Speaker 00 Jim Matthews. In the 1990s, Panky made comments to Lieutenant Mark Lockwood, claiming Jim Matthews was involved in his daughter's disappearance. However, he again denied personally knowing the Matthews family.
52:40 Speaker 01 Well, that's such a strange comment to make then.
52:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, if you don't know these people, why are you claiming that this guy had a role in his daughter's disappearance? He testified that he no longer believed the family had anything to do with Janelle's disappearance and death. Panky explained that during his conversation with Lockwood, the lieutenant told him about the shoe prints being raked over, which is how he knew about this piece of evidence. During cross-examination, Panky was reminded that Lockwood testified. He never had this conversation with Panky. Panky responded that Lockwood was lying. So, I mean, this guy took the stand, which you don't see all that often, right? It's fairly uncommon.
53:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not normally recommended.
53:29 Speaker 00 But did he have to do so to tell the jury why he had made all of these strange comments over the years? Because they, they make him look guilty.
53:42 Speaker 01 They do.
53:43 Speaker 00 And so he's going to say, hey, I lied about this. This is why I lied about it. Panky admitted that he started lying on December 27th, 1984, when he falsely reported the conversation with his father-in-law about hiding a body. He testified, "I began a series of lies and it got bigger and bigger over the years." Okay, so my father-in-law didn't really say that someone came to him about burying a body. I'm sure his father-in-law was very happy with him.
54:18 Speaker 00 And, you know, Gibbs, one thing I will say about some of these people is they lie so much that it becomes really kind of hard to figure out what's going on.
54:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, they, they lie so much that they don't even know when they're lying sometimes.
54:34 Speaker 00 He said he made this conversation up to keep the story going. He claimed the false report was in connection to some conversations he had at Sunny View Church of the Nazarene in the late seventies, but he didn't elaborate further. Pinky testified that he heard earlier reports that Janelle's disappearance was connected to the church. So now he's, he's saying the church was involved somehow.
54:59 Speaker 01 Just spreading the blame everywhere.
55:01 Speaker 00 Pinky also testified about his whereabouts on December 20th. He said he filled up his family vehicle in preparation for a planned trip to California and they left around four or five AM on December 21st. He denied having access to any other vehicles after his automotive business went under in 1984. He maintained that he didn't hear about Janelle Matthews disappearance until they returned to Colorado and he disputed his ex-wife's testimony about the trip being last minute. He also disputed her claims that he started digging in the front yard when they returned in that he banned radio, TV and the news from their house.
55:44 Speaker 01 All lies.
55:46 Speaker 00 Pinky was asked why his wife would lie and said she may be scorned or want money.
55:52 Speaker 01 Well, I did mention being scorned.
55:56 Speaker 00 Or it could be possible that she just knew you were a piece of shit and that you really did say all these things. The jury heard that when investigators contacted Pinky before his arrest, he demanded immunity before he would offer information.
56:14 Speaker 01 Give me immunity or I'm not doing anything.
56:17 Speaker 00 Well, who doesn't want immunity?
56:19 Speaker 01 I want immunity right now.
56:20 Speaker 00 And I don't, as far as I know, you're not even guilty of anything.
56:23 Speaker 01 As far as you know.
56:24 Speaker 00 But immunity would be great. It's like the get out of jail free card.
56:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:29 Speaker 00 From Monopoly.
56:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
56:31 Speaker 00 Just like immunity beforehand, just in case something were to go down.
56:36 Speaker 01 Like diplomatic immunity?
56:38 Speaker 00 Yes, like in Lethal Weapon.
56:40 Speaker 01 Yes, that's what I want to, I want that too. I want to be able to go somewhere and just say diplomatic immunity.
56:47 Speaker 00 First of all, you've said it twice and neither one of them's been correct.
56:50 Speaker 01 It's close.
56:51 Speaker 00 It's close, but it's not correct. Panky testified that he asked for a deal because he was worried he would be charged for lying about his supposed knowledge of the case, saying, "I wanted immunity to privately say I made it up, so I didn't have to publicly say I made it up." This guy, he's all over the map, dude.
57:13 Speaker 01 He's a character.
57:16 Speaker 00 During closing arguments, Panky's attorney said, "Per the Fort Collins, Colorado," and, "Steve Panky's kind of a jerk. It's a fact. We can't hide from it. A jerk is not the same as a murderer." And again, I understand why the defense attorney is doing what he's doing. You can't paint this guy out to be a good guy, because the jury already knows he's not.
57:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
57:43 Speaker 00 So you have to admit that he's an a-hole, but say, "That doesn't mean he's a murderer."
57:52 Speaker 01 Right. You have to sell him on that.
57:54 Speaker 00 Because a lot of people are a-holes. I'm an a-hole.
57:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, you are.
57:58 Speaker 00 I'm not a murderer.
57:59 Speaker 01 Not yet.
57:59 Speaker 00 Allegedly. But if you keep pushing me, that might change.
58:04 Speaker 01 I wonder when that day will come.
58:06 Speaker 00 Never, never. His defense attorney said he thought Panky suffered from a mental disorder and told the jury, "Mr. Panky lives in a world of conspiracy, paranoia, and self-esteem issues. Having an interest in her disappearance is not the same thing as being involved in the disappearance of Janelle Matthews." And that statement is absolutely true. That doesn't mean he didn't do it, but that statement is true, right? Having an interest in something is not the same as being involved in something.
58:40 Speaker 01 Well, that's true, very true.
58:42 Speaker 00 But he's really trying to sell the jury, and he has to, because things right now, they don't look great for his client.
58:49 Speaker 01 No.
58:50 Speaker 00 Even without, you know, some conclusive DNA or anything like that. On November 4th, 2021, the judge declared a mistrial after two days of deliberation. However, Panky was convicted of one charge, false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor with a maximum of six months in jail. Prosecutors filed this charge on November 1st, after Panky admitted to lying to the police. So you go through this whole trial and what comes out of it, right? A mistrial and a conviction on this one kind of misdemeanor charge.
59:29 Speaker 01 For authorities, though, you feel good about it in the sense that you know where he's going to be for the next six months.
59:34 Speaker 00 Well, and you know, you, you can have another shot at it. So it's not great. You didn't get a conviction.
59:40 Speaker 01 No.
59:41 Speaker 00 But he wasn't acquitted.
59:42 Speaker 01 Right.
59:42 Speaker 00 If he'd have been acquitted, then you're done, but you got another shot at it. His retrial started on October 7th, 2022, and the evidence was mostly the same as the first trial. Because they had no DNA evidence, the prosecution's case was built on Panky's incriminating statements. And we went through all of those. There were a lot of them. On October 31st, 2022, Steve Panky was found guilty of second degree kidnapping with the use of a deadly weapon, felony murder and false reporting to authorities.
1:00:19 Speaker 00 He was found not guilty of first degree murder, but he was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 20 years.
1:00:29 Speaker 01 Well, as a prosecutor, you're probably not feeling great, but you're glad that you were able to put him away for at least 20 years, maybe longer.
1:00:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not probably the slam dunk win that, that they were looking for, which would have been first degree murder. But you got a conviction and he is going to go away for quite a long time. But it doesn't surprise me, Gibbs, to be honest with you, that a jury would have a hard time. Maybe with first degree murder, but go with another lesser offense. Or you have all these incriminating statements. You have a ton of stuff that makes this guy look guilty. But in your head, are you going to be able to say that I am sure beyond a reasonable doubt
1:01:23 Speaker 00 that this guy is guilty of first degree murder? And I think people might struggle with that. And I could understand, but I could also understand that they don't want to let him off the hook. Because deep down, they know that he did something. It's a real tough place, I think, for the jury. When you're dealing with this type of evidence. Jim Matthews said at sentencing per oxygen, you've claimed to be a Christian on many occasions. There's still hope for you. It's not too late to confess your sins, which is the first step to your forgiveness. The second step is to repent or turn away from your evil ways. It's up to you and it's not too late.
1:02:04 Speaker 00 Steve Panki, Panki said in court, I am a Christian. I will be in heaven. I am innocent and this is not justice for Janelle. Okay, so Jim didn't get what he wanted, right? He was trying to appeal to Panki.
1:02:21 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:02:22 Speaker 00 Be honest. Confess your sins.
1:02:25 Speaker 01 But Panki is going to double down and say, I didn't do it.
1:02:28 Speaker 00 Which, if he ever were to come up for parole, would probably be a strike against him.
1:02:34 Speaker 01 I think so.
1:02:35 Speaker 00 We've seen that many times. Now, Steve Panki is currently 73 years old. And, you know, he'll be eligible for parole in 2040. So.
1:02:47 Speaker 01 Eighty-eight years old?
1:02:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, he's gonna be like 88 years old. So did he take that into account? I mean, it's much different than if he was 20.
1:02:55 Speaker 01 Right.
1:02:56 Speaker 00 Then maybe he makes the calculations in his head and says, I could get out of here when I'm 40, but I'm gonna have to admit to what I did. He probably figures he's never getting out because he may not live that long.
1:03:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:12 Speaker 00 So why? Admit it. I'll just go with what I've been going with.
1:03:17 Speaker 01 I'll just ride it out.
1:03:18 Speaker 00 As we wrap this one up, Gibbs, the disappearance of Janelle Matthews was a cold case for more than three decades. After her remains were finally found, then it became a murder investigation. And although there was no forensic evidence really against him, Steve Panky's statements and his incriminating knowledge about the case was enough to convince a jury that he was guilty of the murder. And so there are a lot of things that really fascinated me about this case. Number one, it was a cold case for a very long time and you and I also do an unsolved podcast and we talk about it quite a bit.
1:03:58 Speaker 01 Right.
1:03:59 Speaker 00 Now, what's the likelihood that this case will be solved? Cause some of the cases we talk about are 30, 40, even 50 years old.
1:04:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
1:04:07 Speaker 00 And I just don't think you can give up hope.
1:04:11 Speaker 01 No, here's a prime example why you can't.
1:04:12 Speaker 00 Right. Prime example. And then the second thing that really fascinated me is really the evidence against this guy. Again, no real hard proof. What you have is a series of incriminating statements, circumstantial evidence. And then it's up to the jury.
1:04:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:35 Speaker 00 What do they make of that? Much different than if they had, you know, found this guy's DNA on Janelle Matthews remains. All right, then you're, you're talking hard evidence.
1:04:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:51 Speaker 00 More of a slam dunk.
1:04:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, you got something to work with.
1:04:54 Speaker 00 But when this guy's just making strange statements, incriminating statements, I think that's a much tougher ask for a jury.
1:05:03 Speaker 01 Do you know who his roommate, uh, do you know who his cellmate is?
1:05:06 Speaker 00 No.
1:05:07 Speaker 01 Hank.
1:05:08 Speaker 00 Hanky Panky?
1:05:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:11 Speaker 00 How'd I know you were gonna go there?
1:05:15 Speaker 01 I'm so juvenile.
1:05:17 Speaker 00 But I think it shows in the fact that, you know, the first jury couldn't make a decision. And then the second jury wasn't willing to convict him of first degree murder. I just, I think that shows you how, I don't want to use the word weak, but how little, you know, they had in the way of concrete evidence.
1:05:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:40 Speaker 00 It really was just, you know, his own strangeness and things that he said and knowledge that he had that he shouldn't have had.
1:05:50 Speaker 01 Somewhat arrogant.
1:05:50 Speaker 00 That, that I think, you know, put him away. But that's it for our episode on Steve Panky and the murder of Janelle Matthews. We got some voicemails, Gibbs, you want to check those out?
1:06:01 Speaker 01 Let's hear them.
1:06:02 Speaker 02 Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Heather. I am calling from Houston, Texas. I just wanted to say I love y'all. I love your podcast. I've been listening since about 2020. I go back and forth between True Crime All the Time and True Crime All the Time Unsolved. I'm a little bit behind on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. I just got done listening to the Brandon Lawson podcast. I was just calling in to give a little update. I always like to go and kind of Google the cases that y'all do on Unsolved. Um, Brandon Lawson, I did look it up. Um, the Facebook page did an update in December of last year.
1:06:43 Speaker 02 Um, I know on the podcast y'all were talking about the remains they saw, they found and they were still trying to determine if it was his. Um, in December, they did put a post out that it was finally determined those were his remains. So hopefully maybe they can find out what actually happened to him. If there's anything they can do, but at least they got the closure that those are his remains. Just wanted to give y'all that update. I love y'all. I love your podcast. I listen to y'all on my commute to work, which is over an hour. So keep up the good work. I am Team Gibby and keep your own time ticking. Thanks, guys.
1:07:20 Speaker 01 Heather from Houston.
1:07:21 Speaker 00 All right. Love it. Yeah. Thanks for the update. We always appreciate those.
1:07:25 Speaker 01 We do.
1:07:25 Speaker 00 And our commute is no joke.
1:07:29 Speaker 01 She's got me in the car with her.
1:07:30 Speaker 00 Yeah. And luckily you're not driving.
1:07:35 Speaker 03 Hi Mike and Gibby, this is Nesta from Texas. I love both of you, so I am Team Gibby and Team Fergie. Um, my, it's not a question really, it's just a comment. A lot of people leave their voicemail and they always say, uh, keep your own time ticking, which absolutely, but one of the things I always hear you say is stay safe and keep your own time ticking. So I'm just wondering, does that bother you when people leave that off? If you want them to say the whole, stay safe and keep your own time ticking? Or is it fine for you if they say, all right, bye, keep your own time ticking? It would kind of get something like that. Hope you have a great day and keep doing what you do. Thanks.
1:08:11 Speaker 01 Man, another call from Texas.
1:08:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, how about that? No, it's, it's fine with me either way. Um, but it's interesting what people pick up on.
1:08:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true.
1:08:20 Speaker 00 People pick up on things that we say that we don't realize we're saying. She's picking up on what people are leaving in, in voicemails. And then, you know, she's wondering, I wonder if that bugs Fergie and Gibby.
1:08:35 Speaker 01 Pisses us off.
1:08:37 Speaker 00 No, it doesn't at all, but it's just, it's so interesting to me to hear from people and, you know, kind of, when they dive into what sticks out at them.
1:08:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:51 Speaker 00 About a case, things we say, things other people say. Um, I don't know. I just have, uh, an interest in that. So I appreciate you calling and letting us know, but the answer is for me at least now, I, it doesn't bother me at all. I don't, I don't care.
1:09:07 Speaker 01 For me, it pisses me off.
1:09:08 Speaker 00 I think you should, I think you should do both. Stay safe.
1:09:11 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:09:12 Speaker 00 And keep your own time ticking. And they kind of go hand in hand, right? You have to stay safe to keep your own time ticking.
1:09:18 Speaker 01 Or you could just keep your time ticking, but stay safe.
1:09:23 Speaker 00 But stay classy, San Diego.
1:09:25 Speaker 01 Yes, right.
1:09:28 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:09:34 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:09:35 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking and stay classy San Diego.
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