Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Stephen Marshall About this episode In March and April 2009, a man’s dismembered remains were scattered across two counties in England. The “jigsaw man,” as the media called the victim, was identified as 49-year-old Jeffrey Howe. The main suspect was his roommate and “best friend,” Stephen Marshall.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Stephen Marshall. Jeffrey Howe thought he was helping out Stephen Marshall and his girlfriend, Sarah Bush, by allowing them both to stay in his home. But Jeffrey soon realized he had made a mistake because the pair ate up his food and contributed little. Jeffrey Howe would never get the chance to kick them out.
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 440 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:59 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
2:00 Speaker 01 Good.
2:01 Speaker 00 You and I talked on our Patreon thing about my wife helping me clean up the studio slash basement.
2:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:10 Speaker 00 And I'm telling you right now, when my wife gets in that mode, you better watch out. It's like a whirlwind.
2:17 Speaker 01 I'm just glad I wasn't here because I think she would have thrown me out.
2:19 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, she's been threatening to throw you out for years, but she, she really got into that. Holding things up, you know, keep throw away, keep throw.
2:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:30 Speaker 00 It was just like two hours of that.
2:32 Speaker 01 Oh, you're like, just do whatever you want with it.
2:35 Speaker 00 Just throw it all away.
2:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:37 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Andrew Robichaud.
2:41 Speaker 01 Hey, Robin Shad.
2:42 Speaker 00 Did you put an N in there?
2:43 Speaker 01 Probably.
2:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. Ginger Lauderdale jumped out of her highest level.
2:47 Speaker 01 Ah, Lauderdale.
2:48 Speaker 00 Laura Harkness.
2:49 Speaker 01 Hey, Laura.
2:50 Speaker 00 Miss Mary S L P.
2:52 Speaker 01 What up, Mary S L P?
2:53 Speaker 00 Chase.
2:54 Speaker 01 Hey, Chase.
2:54 Speaker 00 Kristen.
2:55 Speaker 01 Well, thanks, Kristen.
2:56 Speaker 00 Melissa Blanco.
2:57 Speaker 01 Hey, Blanco.
2:58 Speaker 00 Marissa Map jumped out of her highest level.
3:01 Speaker 01 What's up, Marissa?
3:01 Speaker 00 Steve Violet.
3:03 Speaker 01 Hey, Violet.
3:04 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Laurel H.
3:07 Speaker 01 Thanks, Laurel.
3:08 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault.
3:11 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Caitlin Quill.
3:13 Speaker 01 Hey, there's Caitlin.
3:14 Speaker 00 Yeah. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of it. We have a new episode out right now on True Crime All The Time Unsolved, where we're talking about 31 year old Billy Smolinski. He went missing in August 2004. One of the last calls that he made was to a man who was romantically involved with his girlfriend. And he hasn't been seen or heard from since, so we have to dive into all of that.
3:41 Speaker 01 Check it out.
3:42 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:46 Speaker 01 I am.
3:47 Speaker 00 In March and April 2009, a man's dismembered remains were found scattered across two counties in England. The Jigsaw Man, as the media called the victim, was identified as 49 year old Jeffrey How. The main suspect turned out to be his roommate and best friend, Stephen Marshall.
4:08 Speaker 01 What a terrible name to be known as, though.
4:11 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, first of all, you, you were murdered, you died. And then the media is calling you the Jigsaw Man.
4:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:20 Speaker 00 Which I get it, you know, you have to sell papers. Now killers always get names, monikers. But nobody really cares about the feelings of these heinous killers.
4:34 Speaker 01 Of course not.
4:34 Speaker 00 But when you're talking about the victim, it seems a little bit callous.
4:41 Speaker 01 A little bit.
4:43 Speaker 00 Jeffrey Howell was a kitchen salesman from Southgate, North London. He had previously worked as a cook in Italy and had lived in different parts of England. Jeffrey was unmarried and had no children. He lived in a block of apartments. His neighbor Francis Lozout described him as aggressive and unfriendly. She argued with him over his attitude towards children playing outside his apartment. Okay, sounds like one of those guys who maybe didn't like kids, wasn't happy with them playing, you know, there's always that that person in the neighborhood who gets teed off when the kids run through their yard.
5:25 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
5:26 Speaker 00 Sometimes an old man, get off of my yard. I remember that when I was a kid.
5:30 Speaker 01 Just a grumpy neighbor.
5:31 Speaker 00 And run by him, F you, man.
5:34 Speaker 01 Probably the one that always peed in his bushes, too.
5:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you know, why not? In 2008, Jeffrey met Stephen Marshall, who had also started working as a kitchen salesman. The two became drinking buddies and Stephen described Jeffrey as his best friend. And maybe this is a guy who didn't have a ton of friends. You know, if you are described as aggressive and unfriendly, maybe hard to make friends, hard to keep friends.
6:04 Speaker 01 I would think it would be.
6:05 Speaker 00 Sources report that Stephen once owned a gym and previously was a bodybuilder and personal trainer. He'd been married twice and had four children. This guy sounds a lot like you.
6:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, you mean, reminds you of me because of the bodybuilding and the training?
6:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, you, you know, you own that gym back in the day, you were a personal trainer. You still claim to be a personal trainer, which is a little harder to pull off now.
6:34 Speaker 01 You know, the gym was pretty cool. Gibby's Gym.
6:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:37 Speaker 01 You know, and the training, was it?
6:41 Speaker 00 Mainstream? No, no. It was like Dwight on The Office when he tried to open that gym after he bought the building. It's like ripping phone books and, you know, carrying pitchers of water.
6:57 Speaker 01 And I just thought it was a good way to, you know, get people to do everyday movements.
7:02 Speaker 00 Without spending anything on equipment or weights or accoutrements, things like that.
7:09 Speaker 01 Exactly. Yeah. Move that mop a little faster, guys. That's what I would tell them.
7:13 Speaker 00 Steven's friend said he lived a Playboy lifestyle. He often hired sex workers, used drugs and had a violent temper that led to fights with friends and strangers. Okay, this guy is exactly like you.
7:27 Speaker 01 The what? The violent temper?
7:29 Speaker 00 No, the Playboy lifestyle, the hiring of sex workers. The drug use.
7:36 Speaker 01 Massive amount of drug use, you know?
7:39 Speaker 00 No, that's actually the, all of that is the complete opposite of you. No one would ever describe you as having led a Playboy lifestyle.
7:50 Speaker 01 I don't think so.
7:51 Speaker 00 Or me, me either, but for that matter.
7:54 Speaker 01 Well, I'm not surprised these two guys get along based off of this description, though.
7:59 Speaker 00 Well, maybe based on the violent tempers?
8:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:02 Speaker 00 They both had tempers, I guess.
8:03 Speaker 01 Sometimes, you know, personalities attract that way, you know?
8:07 Speaker 00 They can, I guess. In 2008, Steven was in a relationship with 20-year-old Sarah Bush, the sex worker. They started dating after Steven paid her for sex. According to the BBC, they had what was termed a stormy relationship. Steven was very controlling of Sarah. For example, he made her drop the H at the end of her name. He disliked your friends and he was allegedly violent towards the father of Sarah's children, who sought an injunction against him. Sarah had to sneak out to visit her kids because Stephen made it difficult for her to do so.
8:46 Speaker 01 Kind of reminds me of the time you had me drop my Y after Gibby. Just wanted to be Gibb.
8:52 Speaker 00 How controlling is that though? I mean, we talk about a lot of controlling guys.
8:57 Speaker 01 Sure.
8:58 Speaker 00 But you can't let someone spell their name the way that it was given to them.
9:05 Speaker 01 Like her legal name?
9:06 Speaker 00 Her legal name?
9:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:08 Speaker 00 You want it S A R A without the H.
9:11 Speaker 01 Don't let me see you spell it the other way anymore. I mean, it's crazy.
9:15 Speaker 00 In November 2008, Jeffrey allowed Stephen and Sarah to move into his apartment because he wanted to help them out. But he soon regretted extending the offer. Stephen and Sarah didn't pay rent and they stole Jeffrey's food. Around Christmas time, Jeffrey complained to his boss that his roommates were eating him out of house and home. He mentioned that they refused to leave after promising to do so.
9:41 Speaker 01 Nothing worse than somebody coming to your house and eating all your food.
9:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, that's terrible. Happens to me once a week.
9:50 Speaker 00 The only good thing is I know at the end of the night, you're, you're leaving, you're going home.
9:55 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
9:56 Speaker 00 If you failed to do so, we'd have a big problem. My wife and I don't have enough money to feed you every day. It just, it just couldn't happen.
10:07 Speaker 01 And it's so weird when it's time for me to go. It's like you take me to like along a direct path up the stairs.
10:16 Speaker 00 Straight to the door?
10:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, like not past the fridge, not gonna let me open up the freezer to grab it like a ice cream sandwich.
10:22 Speaker 00 There's no lingering. It's just get, you know, hey, we did what we had to do and be gone.
10:28 Speaker 01 Time to go.
10:29 Speaker 00 But let, you know, let's talk about this situation. You know, you're trying to help some people out. This guy who, you know, he thinks of as his best friend and this guy's girlfriend, they're right. They need a place to stay. He's going to let them stay with them. But it sounds like they just, you know, essentially took advantage of me.
10:50 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're staying with somebody, they're letting you stay there. At least what you could do is maybe buy the groceries. But don't eat all their groceries.
11:02 Speaker 00 And it also sounds like they made him think this was going to be a very short term thing. And then they just kind of settled in and they like, hey, it's pretty good here.
11:11 Speaker 01 Why move?
11:11 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, we'll just stay.
11:13 Speaker 01 Yeah. Plus all this free food.
11:15 Speaker 00 Sarah fraudulently applied for housing benefits, stating on her application that she lived alone. And Jeffrey was leasing the flat. Steven forged Jeffrey's signature on the documents.
11:27 Speaker 01 So a little bit of fraud going on now. Not good.
11:30 Speaker 00 No, no, not at all. Prosecutors later said the couple saw Jeffrey's inability to evict them as a weakness and an opportunity for them to steal from him.
11:42 Speaker 01 See, you try to be nice and it backfires.
11:46 Speaker 00 And people take advantage of you. And it can be, in some jurisdictions, extremely hard to evict someone, whether they're paying rent or not.
11:57 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, we know that very well.
11:59 Speaker 00 The, the fact that you allowed them to live there. I think most people think you can just say, hey, get out.
12:06 Speaker 01 Doesn't work that way.
12:07 Speaker 00 It, it doesn't always work that way. Authorities believe Jeffrey Howe was stabbed to death on March 8th or 9th, 2009. A friend came to visit Jeffrey back in late January 2009 and found Sarah and Steven living in the apartment. She later tried to call Jeffrey and learned he had not been seen or heard from in a while. She reported him missing on March 15th, 2009.
12:34 Speaker 01 It makes you wonder if she didn't try to call Jeffrey to get ahold of him? Would anyone have reported him missing?
12:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I don't know because, you know, we just talked about it, right? I don't think this is a guy who had like a wide circle of friends. Two officers went to the apartment on March 16th and forced their way inside when no one answered the door. They found Jeffrey's passport on a coffee table. There was no visible blood or signs of a struggle inside the apartment. When investigators were able to speak to Sarah and Steven, they were told that as far as they knew, Jeffrey was still alive. They claimed he had packed up his things and moved out and they hadn't talked to him since. Okay. I think for police, you've got a real strange situation here. You know,
13:24 Speaker 00 you have someone who is reported as missing. You go to that individual's residence, you're inside, there's nothing that's standing out, right? As, oh, obviously something bad happened here.
13:41 Speaker 01 Right.
13:42 Speaker 00 And you have some people who are living there who say, you know, the guy just packed up his stuff and left.
13:48 Speaker 01 The only thing he left was his passport.
13:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know as an investigator what you really have to go on. But then on March 22nd, 2009, a man's left leg severed at the thigh was found wrapped in blue plastic near the roadside in Cotter, Hertfordshire.
14:08 Speaker 01 Would be a strange thing to come across.
14:10 Speaker 00 I always think so. You know, now, would it be rougher to find a dead body whole or pieces of a body? And I don't know the answer to that because I've never found either one.
14:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it would be difficult either way, but I think I'd be wondering, where's the other pieces at? Like, why is it just this piece here right now?
14:35 Speaker 00 Jeffrey typically spoke to his mother on the phone several times a week. She was worried when she didn't hear from him and reported him missing as well. On March 28th, Jeffrey's brother visited his apartment and was told by Sarah Bush that Jeffrey had not collected rent for a while and left with his belongings. So maybe they were paying rent at one time. Kind of makes it seem like that when she says, oh, he hadn't collected rent for a while. But again, you know, just like with the police, your family are showing up and all they have to go by is what they're being told by the occupants living there.
15:16 Speaker 01 Well, that's true. And it's pretty tough when the only information you can get is from the occupants.
15:21 Speaker 00 But they're super worried, right? This is a guy who, like we said, spoke to his mom on the phone several times a week. Now he's not calling anyone. And what is a family to think?
15:34 Speaker 01 I mean, red flags, right?
15:36 Speaker 00 Right. I mean, you have to start to get worried when no one has seen this person. They're not calling you. On March 29th, a man's left forearm severed above the wrist and below the elbow was found by the side of the road in Wheat Hampstead, about 40 minutes from Cotter. All right. So here's a second body part.
16:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:00 Speaker 00 Found. Obviously severed. I mean, there's just, there would be no doubt about it if you saw this. Cut off at the wrist, cut off just below the elbow. It would be very obvious.
16:16 Speaker 01 And do you go, huh, I wonder if that goes with that thigh we found earlier?
16:20 Speaker 00 But you're assuming that these were found by the same people and I do not believe they were. On March 31st, the remains of a severed head were found in a field in Leicestershire, about 100 miles from Wheat Hampstead. The flesh of the scalp and face had been removed. The ears, tongue, and parts of the neck had been cut away.
16:45 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm going to get sick.
16:47 Speaker 00 Well, we did, we did just eat pizza, which makes this even more difficult. Now, we've done a number of stories that have involved dismembered bodies.
16:59 Speaker 00 And some of them, you know, become very gruesome. Just the idea of a dismembered body is gruesome. But then when you talk about, you know, the scalp being removed, the, the, the face actually being removed. All I can think about is, is Silence of the Lambs.
17:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:19 Speaker 00 Where he cut that guard's face off and, and put it on his own.
17:24 Speaker 01 Just trying to imagine what it's like walking up on that in the field, seeing it going, what the hell is that?
17:32 Speaker 00 Well, like we talked about, right? The, the thigh.
17:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:35 Speaker 00 The forearm, that's, that's going to be a rough day when you find those.
17:40 Speaker 01 Sure.
17:41 Speaker 00 But when you find a severed head, missing ears, scalp, the face. Yeah, that's going to be haunting. A man severed right leg was found just off the A10 near Puckridge, Hertfordshire on April 7th. The leg was wrapped in rubber bags and sealed with tape. Okay. The other thing Gibbs, I think we have to talk about is if you live around these areas. And again, they're not super close. We're talking about 40 miles, a hundred miles. But if, if you live anywhere around these areas, you gotta start seeing on the news, right? That body parts are being found.
18:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:24 Speaker 00 You're wondering what is going on?
18:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. You're asking yourself, what the hell is going on here? And why are they rolling out every now and then, right? It's not like they're popping up same day or then, you know, just a day or two. It's spread out.
18:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is. It's spread out a little bit. I mean, I think they're just being found, right? On April 11th, a man's torso was found in a green suitcase in a drainage ditch at Colliers Inn, Hertfordshire. With this discovery, authorities were able to figure out the man's cause of death. He was stabbed twice in the back with a four inch blade. One of the wounds punctured his lung. And I think the other thing we have to talk about, it's not like they're finding multiple right feet, multiple, you know, similar body, but these are all different body parts. At some point. Do you not have to begin to think that these all go together?
19:21 Speaker 01 Right, yeah. Could I also say that I will never open up a suitcase found on anywhere besides inside of a home or an airport based on this and some previous cases we did with suitcases, knowing that people are using them to put bodies in?
19:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to just, you know, find a suitcase in the woods and be like, oh, I wonder what's in there.
19:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:49 Speaker 00 But what if there's half a million dollars in there and you don't open it?
19:54 Speaker 01 See, you got me because now I'm gonna have to open it just to make sure that it's not money.
20:01 Speaker 00 Also, why are you opening people's suitcases in their homes and at the airport?
20:06 Speaker 01 Well, that's another story.
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22:44 Speaker 00 The police released a description of the victim, his cause of death, and a photo of the green suitcase. Despite a search, the hands were never found. And that's interesting, right? You would think the hands would be kind of key, or maybe the easiest way to identify this person based on this description. A member of the public called the police on April 21st to identify the victim as the missing Jeffrey Howe. He was publicly identified on April 23rd.
23:18 Speaker 00 So I mentioned, right, the hands were never found, that, you know, was that done to try to keep this victim from being identified? And then I go back to the face. Was that done to try to keep the victim from being identified?
23:36 Speaker 01 It seems like it would have been.
23:38 Speaker 00 I don't know what other reason someone would have.
23:41 Speaker 01 Right.
23:41 Speaker 00 Other than trying to make it harder to identify this person. Neighbors said they believed Jeffrey had moved away six months earlier. They hadn't seen Jeffrey or his two vehicles and believed he had rented out his apartment.
23:56 Speaker 01 So you, do you find it strange that neighbors are saying they haven't seen him for six months?
24:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, because we're talking about April, right? And, and we already said that they estimated that he died like around the first week of March, right? The eighth or the ninth, somewhere around there. So people saying that they hadn't seen him in six months seems very strange to me. Jeffrey's brother issued a statement with the announcement. Jeffrey was an extremely caring son. He was a jovial, charming character who had a heart of gold and would get on with anyone. He could be a little selfish sometimes, but did what he thought was best. As you can imagine, our family has been left extremely traumatized by what has happened. We're finding it extremely hard to come to terms with what has happened
24:47 Speaker 00 and we ask to be left alone at this time. And what else are you gonna say? Right? If you're this guy's brother, okay, could he, he could be a little selfish. Well, who can't?
24:58 Speaker 01 That's true.
24:59 Speaker 00 We already said, people said he had, you know, somewhat of a temper. He yelled at some of the kids in the neighborhood, but that doesn't make the guy a, a bad guy. But even if he's not the best guy in the world, you're talking about a loved one who's died, you gotta come up with some flattering things to say.
25:18 Speaker 01 Not only did he die, his body parts have been found across several areas.
25:24 Speaker 00 Yeah. So, I mean, you're assuming at that point, he was murdered.
25:27 Speaker 01 Right.
25:28 Speaker 00 That day, authorities announced they had arrested a 37 year old man and a 20 year old woman on suspicion of murder two days earlier. They were being held for questioning. They were described as Jeffrey's flatmates and were of course later identified as Steven Marshall and Sarah Bush.
25:47 Speaker 01 Well, I think those would be the logical first people you would go talk to. Well, he was living here. You said he moved out. Nobody really knows where he went, but yet then we find his body.
26:00 Speaker 00 And you're conveniently still living here, paying no rent.
26:03 Speaker 01 Right.
26:04 Speaker 00 The police also discovered that Steven previously lived close to the area where Jeffrey's torso was found. The arresting officer recalled that during questioning, Marshall was very, very nervous, jittery. His leg was shaking. Sarah Bush was described as very uncomfortable in her interview. So I ask you, Gibbs, as a person who's been questioned by the police many times, I mean, it, it has to be a little unnerving, right?
26:34 Speaker 01 It can be, you know, especially if you've never been through it before.
26:38 Speaker 00 Hmm. Yeah. But after what? The eighth or 10th time, you're, you probably have it down pretty good.
26:43 Speaker 01 You kind of get accustomed to it.
26:45 Speaker 00 Sarah told the police that Steven experienced mood swings and she was planning on leaving him. She said, per the BBC, he has his ups and downs. Sometimes he's a nice person, but sometimes he's really evil. Okay. You might say that about a lot of people you know, right? They, well, they have their ups and downs. Sometimes they're nice, sometimes they're not so nice. But how many times do you use the term really evil in describing someone?
27:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, that'd be a rarity, I would think.
27:16 Speaker 00 You might as well just come out and say, well, yeah.
27:20 Speaker 01 He's a killer.
27:21 Speaker 00 Steven gave no comment during questioning. While performing a detailed forensic search of Jeffrey's apartment, investigators found blood in the bedroom, bathroom, under the carpet, and in Jeffrey's recovered car. Green fibers from a shirt in Steven's room. Matched fibers on duct tape used to wrap the dismembered remains.
27:44 Speaker 01 So it sounds like the investigation is going very well.
27:47 Speaker 00 Well, it also sounds like a lot of this happened inside the apartment. I mean, I'm imagine there was quite a bit of blood. They found it in a number of different rooms underneath the carpet.
28:03 Speaker 01 Well, I'm not surprised, right? If you're going to dismember a body, it's going to get a little messy.
28:10 Speaker 00 I can imagine very messy. Steven Marshall and Sarah Bush's Trump started on January 12th, 2010 at St. Albans Crown Court. The court heard that Jeffrey let Steven and Sarah live at his apartment when they needed somewhere to stay. When he later wanted them to move out, they refused to leave and began plotting to kill him. The plan was to kill Jeffrey, conceal his disappearance while stealing his money and property. Because, you know, let's face it, Gibbs, what's easier? Go out and get jobs, work and, you know, pay rent? Or kill the person and just take over their house and live there rent free?
28:54 Speaker 01 If you can stomach that and live with that, I guess that's the route to go. That's what they chose.
29:00 Speaker 00 Well, I was being facetious.
29:01 Speaker 01 I know.
29:02 Speaker 00 Okay. I just don't, don't want anybody to think I was being serious there. On March 8th or 9th, 2009, Steven stabbed Jeffrey in the back while Sarah placed a pillow over his face. They both participated in the dismemberment and disposal of the body.
29:20 Speaker 01 I'm just trying to picture how that all goes, you know? All right, babe. Get the knives.
29:27 Speaker 00 Or knives.
29:28 Speaker 01 Or knives, yeah. Um, grab some wrapping paper, plastic, whatever. Uh, maybe if you.
29:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't think a lot of killers use like Christmas wrapping paper. Is that what you're talking about?
29:39 Speaker 01 I'm thinking like cling wrap.
29:41 Speaker 00 Cling wrap.
29:42 Speaker 01 Whatever you call that.
29:43 Speaker 00 The clear?
29:44 Speaker 01 The clear wrap, yeah, yeah.
29:46 Speaker 00 Uh, but first you have to have the conversation before it even starts, right?
29:51 Speaker 01 Sure.
29:51 Speaker 00 Hey, this is what I think we should do. We should kill this man and just kind of take over his apartment. Take his identity and get as much as we can off of it. And then obviously you have to put it in motion and carry it out. After killing Jeffrey, Steven and Sarah continued living in his apartment. They sold his phone the day after the murder and soon sold his car on eBay. They used his bank account to buy clothes, shoes, food and other items. They forged checks and emptied his account. Okay, here's the other thing that I'm really picking up on is, you know, I don't think we're talking about criminal masterminds here.
30:37 Speaker 00 Uh, I don't know how these two thought they were going to get away with this.
30:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think they were the smartest people whatsoever. Think they were just reacting like, hey, there's this checkbook or bank card. Let's go get some money. Let's do this.
30:54 Speaker 00 Which I think a lot of people do, right? They, they sometimes don't think about the consequences or, you know, what they would have to do afterwards to keep from getting caught. Like immediate gratification is the, the primary goal. And then, okay, whatever comes after comes after. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, that's going to be you getting caught, being convicted and going to prison for a long time.
31:25 Speaker 01 And I was surprised that after Jeffrey's brother came by looking for him, that they were still living there after that. Why not move?
31:33 Speaker 00 It's almost like they didn't fear the consequences or didn't think they would get caught. Sarah also used a computer in a public library to make purchases using Jeffrey's identity. The court heard that Sarah and Stephen were linked to the murder through phone records, fibers, blood, and incriminating remarks. Their journey to Leistich, where Jeffrey's head was found, was tracked by CCTV and automatic number plate recognition. Sarah also talked about the murder while drinking with friends. And Stephen previously told a witness about dismembering and disposing of bodies.
32:15 Speaker 00 Additionally, Stephen had connections to Weed Hampstead, where Jeffrey's arm was found, and Sarah had connections to East Hertfordshire, where other remains were found.
32:27 Speaker 01 Who tells people, you know, hey, I'll have another beer over here. By the way, you know, Judy, you know, the other night.
32:38 Speaker 00 We killed this guy.
32:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:39 Speaker 00 It's so strange.
32:41 Speaker 01 It just doesn't make any sense why you would do something like that. And then you have, you know, Stephen telling people how he dismembered a body.
32:50 Speaker 00 Almost as if they must have been bragging about it.
32:53 Speaker 01 Hey, if you guys ever want to know how to take a body apart, me and Sarah actually did one the other night, and here's how you got to do it.
33:02 Speaker 00 The prosecution pointed out that Stephen had a record of violence and associated himself with criminals. He was convicted of criminal damage, assault, battery against an ex-wife, and possession of cocaine and a firearm. In 1996, Stephen was arrested on suspicion of murdering 23-year-old Manesh Negresha, whose body was found disfigured and burnt. He was never charged and later appeared as a witness. Okay, it's pretty interesting, though.
33:34 Speaker 01 It is.
33:35 Speaker 00 That you got, you have a guy who's arrested on suspicion of murder, who later does go on to commit a murder. Makes you wonder about that one.
33:44 Speaker 01 Makes you wanna maybe do a look back.
33:47 Speaker 00 Sarah was not convicted of any crimes, but was cautioned for assault and possession of cannabis. But remember, she was only 20 years old at the time.
33:58 Speaker 01 That's true.
33:58 Speaker 00 He was older.
33:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:00 Speaker 00 At the start of trial, Stephen pleaded guilty to two counts of perverting the course of justice by giving false information during the missing person investigation and dismembering the body and disposing of the remains. To impede the investigation, he admitted to intending to prevent a coroner from holding an inquest by disposing of the body in different locations. But here's the catch, Gibbs. He still denied committing the murder. He claimed Sarah did it, and he only helped dismember and dispose of the remains.
34:38 Speaker 01 Wasn't me, it was her.
34:40 Speaker 00 So I'm gonna plead guilty to, you know, impeding the course of justice. I'm gonna plead guilty to dismemberment and disposing of the remains. But I did not commit this murder. That was all Sarah.
34:55 Speaker 01 Right.
34:56 Speaker 00 Now Sarah continued to deny all charges against her.
35:01 Speaker 01 She's probably thinking, you son of a bitch.
35:03 Speaker 00 I'm sure. But isn't that what we see time and time again?
35:07 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
35:08 Speaker 00 You, you have these two people who seem to be working in concert until the shit hits the fan.
35:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:14 Speaker 00 And then it's like, self-preservation takes over, the finger pointing starts, and it's like, how can everybody cover their own asses?
35:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, love is not thicker than, uh,
35:26 Speaker 00 Water?
35:29 Speaker 00 I just was wondering where you were going with that.
35:31 Speaker 01 I was gonna say, uh, when it comes down to prosecution, you know?
35:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:34 Speaker 01 They turn on each other really quick.
35:36 Speaker 00 I get that, but you know, the love is not thicker than what?
35:40 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. I see where you're going.
35:42 Speaker 00 I didn't know where you were gonna end up, and I don't think you did either. The prosecution pointed out that Jeffrey's body was skillfully and cleanly dismembered. A pathologist concluded that the person responsible had prior experience with dismemberment. According to the pathologist's estimate, the dismemberment of Jeffrey Howe's remains would have taken at least 12 hours. After being stabbed, Jeffrey may have been alive for up to an hour, suffering significant blood loss.
36:14 Speaker 01 How tragic is that?
36:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, it's heartbreaking, right? We already know that this man, Jeffrey Howe, lost his life. And then his body was later dismembered, but now we find out that, you know, he could have lived for up to an hour in agonizing pain.
36:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, they could at one point said, you know what? We made a really bad mistake here. We didn't mean to stab you. Uh, we're gonna call and get your help, and maybe you can still live.
36:44 Speaker 00 No, no. No, they're, they're too far down the road.
36:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:47 Speaker 00 And, and I don't think, you know, these were people who were interested in any way in doing the right thing. But I want to go back to this pathologist talking about that this had to be a person with some experience with dismemberment.
37:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:05 Speaker 00 I mean, you know, if you think about it, the common person, the layperson, trying to dismember a body, I'm assuming it's going to be all over the place, a mess.
37:19 Speaker 00 Who would know exactly the, the best point on, on the body to cut?
37:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. If you don't have that knowledge, you're probably just going to start cutting at random spots of the body.
37:32 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, obviously if you have medical education, you know, that's one thing. But if you have dismembered a body before, or maybe multiple bodies, well, you would have learned something from doing that. The court heard from Sarah's former partner, Lee Bunyan, who testified that he and Steven had an argument about Sarah seeing their children. Steven told him per the independent, if you don't let Sarah see the kids, I'm going to take you to Epic and get rid of you. Okay. Well, that's obviously a threat. I mean, most people might say, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna have words. We're gonna have a problem.
38:13 Speaker 01 Right.
38:13 Speaker 00 But when you say get rid of someone, that's like, uh, that's the end.
38:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. Definitely has a, uh, final meaning.
38:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. There's some finality to it. A witness testified that Steven bragged about dismembering bodies for the Addams Family. A crime family based in Clerkenwell, North London. Also a popular, uh, show back in the day.
38:37 Speaker 01 With Wednesday?
38:39 Speaker 00 Sure.
38:40 Speaker 01 Yeah. So now we have a idea why maybe somebody had experience at taking bodies apart. He's telling them that he used to do it all the time.
38:50 Speaker 00 For the mafia.
38:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:52 Speaker 00 You know who dismembers a lot of bodies? The mafia.
38:55 Speaker 01 Mafia.
38:56 Speaker 00 I mean, this guy, you know, he could have been something like, uh, a Kuklinski. You know, kind of a, a hitman fixer, you know, Kuklinski dismembered people, put them in barrels and did all kinds of stuff.
39:10 Speaker 01 Did what he had to do.
39:12 Speaker 00 The anonymous witness testified that Steven claimed to be a cousin of the family and that his uncle was Terry Adams, who at the time was serving a seven-year sentence for money laundering. Steven worked as a bouncer for a London nightclub run by the family in the 1990s. The witness told the court as quoted by The Independent, Steven claimed that Terry was big in the underworld in London. He said that he began working the doors and then because he was part of the family, got asked to do additional jobs after hours, taking care of situations, as he put it, which many times he said that bodies would appear and he was asked to take care of them.
39:53 Speaker 01 Hey, uh, before you go home, uh, there's a couple of bodies out the back. I just need you to take care of those.
40:00 Speaker 00 It seems strange, but I could see it happening.
40:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:05 Speaker 00 I mean, if he really was kind of, you know, part of the family, right, of this mafia-type organization, maybe at the time he wasn't killing people, but could they have asked him to do this? And if he had done a number of these, obviously you would gain a world of experience as you were doing them.
40:27 Speaker 01 Sure. If you just want to get home, you're probably like, what do I got to do to make this go a little quicker? And you learn and you say, okay.
40:34 Speaker 00 What's the easiest way? What's the cleanest way then? Make the cuts the easiest they can be. Take care of meant dismembering and burying bodies. The witness said he would cut up the bodies, decapitate them, severing them at their limbs. He said he would put them into black bags and bury them, sometimes in Epping Forest, sometimes in different places. Steven told her he used a meat cleaver, large meat knives, or a chainsaw or hacksaw to dismember the bodies. He described how it would take a long time and be extremely laborious, take hours and hours to do. He would put them in plastic bags and bury them separately
41:19 Speaker 00 in different places.
41:20 Speaker 01 I mean, that's some pretty detailed descriptions.
41:24 Speaker 00 Yeah. And if true. I think it says a lot about this guy, Stephen. Now, to this point, nobody is saying, okay, he's killing a lot of people, but he is doing the work to get rid of bodies after people have been killed. It was said that the first time Stephen did this, he was nauseated and used cocaine to cope, which led to addiction.
41:54 Speaker 01 I'm sure he was nauseated. How could he not have been?
41:57 Speaker 00 According to the BBC, the witness added, he described burning them and the distinct smell of burning human flesh and said it was something you could never forget. He compared it to the smell of burning pig flesh.
42:14 Speaker 01 That makes me a little sick.
42:15 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Yeah. The, the idea of being around burning human flesh is quite sickening. Stephen also suggested to the witness that Jeffrey Howell was an ideal candidate to kill and steal his identity. And I'm sure Gibbs, they came to that conclusion based on the fact that, you know, maybe he didn't have a lot of friends. Yeah, he had some family. Maybe they didn't come around a lot. He didn't see them a lot. On one occasion, Steve had pointed out a site where a head was found and said the police would not find the rest of the body.
42:57 Speaker 00 He also threatened to dismember the witness and scatter her remains around the country. Okay. Tough to come forward, but obviously this woman did. But, you know, was that after he was arrested? Because I think prior to the arrest, that is a, a pretty scary threat. Knowing this guy is saying that he's already done this a bunch of times.
43:23 Speaker 01 Well, he's certainly going to think about it before coming forward.
43:30 Speaker 00 Two friends of Sarah Bush testified that she told them while drunk that she helped Stephen kill Jeffrey by placing a pillow over his face to stop the noise after he was stabbed. Sarah's friend Danielle Matthews testified that Sarah came to her house on March 30th, 2009. After getting drunk, Sarah said, "Steve killed Jeff." Danielle continued by saying, "Per the BBC, she said it started in the bathroom." She was saying lots of blood, a foot, dismembered, constriction of breath. She said Steve was goading Jeff about moving out of his home. He turned around to Jeff and said, "Get out of your home.
44:13 Speaker 00 I'll kill you and your family." Jeffrey laughed and did not take this threat seriously. Danielle said, "I understood he died either by being strangled or by smothering, but she did say lots of blood. She never said why he done it." And I go back to your point, Gibbs, you know, you're going out on a night on the town or to somebody's house to have some drinks. How does the discussion of murder come up? Was it because she was drunk and, you know, uninhibited at that point?
44:48 Speaker 01 Just wanting to tell somebody.
44:50 Speaker 00 Well, could it weigh on you heavily? Like you're about ready to explode. I've got to tell somebody.
44:57 Speaker 01 Right, yeah.
44:58 Speaker 00 And maybe she thought her good friends would keep her secret. I don't know.
45:02 Speaker 01 As her friend, are you... Can you imagine a friend saying this? I mean, you're leaving there going, or when she leaves there, you're going, "What the hell, man? What was that about?"
45:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, and you know, the strength of the friendship can only be tested so much. You know, at a certain point, most people are going to want to do the right thing.
45:26 Speaker 01 Sure.
45:27 Speaker 00 Even if that means, you know, turning in their friend. Sarah told Danielle that she deposited a check to her account from Jeffrey's account and that Steven was buying cocaine with Jeffrey's money. Danielle also testified that she was afraid of Steven because he threatened to kill her. And I don't doubt that, you know, it sounds like Steven had threatened to kill a lot of different people.
45:50 Speaker 01 And why would you not take him seriously after what happened?
45:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you gotta put a lot of weight into it, right? At that point, Sophie Franklin, a hairdresser testified that Sarah told her on a separate occasion that Steven killed Jeff by stabbing him in the back. Jeff was screaming and Steve was screaming at Sarah to put a pillow over Jeff's mouth. She said there was blood everywhere, even on the ceiling.
46:18 Speaker 01 What a horrific scene.
46:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, but here again, you know, you have Sarah who's, I don't know what it was, Gibbs. It was almost like she had all this inside and just couldn't keep it to herself.
46:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:32 Speaker 00 She had to unload on, you know, some people in her life. She had to get it out. Sophie overheard Sarah refer to hands in effing force, which authorities believe to be Jeffrey's missing hands. Jeffrey's former boss, John Moody testified that Jeffrey was trying to help Steven and Sarah by giving them a place to live, but he was unhappy with this living arrangement. Then we've talked about that, right? I think he was trying to help them out at first, but quickly realized they were trying to take advantage of it.
47:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, they weren't paying him and they were eating all his food.
47:12 Speaker 00 What was his quote? They're eating me out of house and home.
47:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:15 Speaker 00 Jeffrey was uncomfortable going home because they were always there. He didn't want to put food in the cabinets because they would eat it all.
47:24 Speaker 01 I'm sure he was probably thinking, if I don't put food here, maybe eventually they will leave to go get food.
47:30 Speaker 00 Maybe. Now, most people listening probably had a roommate or have a roommate now or had one at some point in their life. You know, it's not easy living with roommates sometimes. You're, it's a communal situation. You know, are you in the camp where you're labeling all your food? Or is everybody sharing?
47:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:56 Speaker 00 It can be tough.
47:57 Speaker 01 Sure.
47:58 Speaker 00 When one or more people don't kind of hold up their end of the bargain.
48:03 Speaker 01 You come home from a long day at work and open your fridge. You get your leftovers that you've been thinking about all day and they're not there and you turn around and look on the couch and see, oh, what's his name? Eating your leftovers.
48:15 Speaker 00 Eating your half, uh, second half of your burrito?
48:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:19 Speaker 00 PC Stuart Tilletson testified that he and a colleague went to the flat on March 16th in response to a missing person report. No one answered, so they forced their way inside. They checked every room and found no traces of blood. They found Jeffrey's passport on the table and other documents belonging to Stephen and Sarah. So we have described that this was a very bloody scene. I can only think, Gibbs, that they must have done a pretty good job of, you know, getting rid of the visible blood.
48:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:54 Speaker 00 Now, we know they found blood under the carpet, in the bathroom, but this is probably a cursory walkthrough.
49:03 Speaker 01 Exactly.
49:03 Speaker 00 It's not a forensic, you know, examination. A statement from Jeffrey's brother, John, was read in court describing how he went to Jeffrey's apartment on March 28th and a woman answered the door. He had never seen her before and he got the impression that she didn't want to speak to him. She said Jeffrey hadn't collected rent in a while and he took all his property with him. She insisted she didn't know where he was. And I can imagine that, you know, if Sarah opens the door and Jeffrey's brother is standing there, that's not a conversation that she's going to want to have.
49:41 Speaker 01 No, not at all.
49:42 Speaker 00 She's going to want to try to get rid of him as quickly as possible. After three weeks of trial, Stephen Marshall surprised the court by pleading guilty to murder on January 29th, 2010.
49:55 Speaker 01 Well, that is a surprise.
49:56 Speaker 00 It is because, you know, we said it, right? He denied committing the murder. Now, he admitted to dismembering, disposing all of that, but he was adamant, right? Sarah did this, but it just doesn't seem like with all of the things we've talked about, that the testimony backed that up. Just the stuff that Sarah told her friends alone.
50:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:26 Speaker 00 On February 1st, 2010, Stephen Marshall was jailed for life with a minimum term of 36 years. His attorney, Peter Doyle, also submitted Stephen's confession to dismembering the bodies of four men while working as a bouncer for the Addams Family from 1995 to 1998. In each incident, the men were killed earlier in the day and brought to the club at night. According to Doyle, Stephen thought it was sensible not to ask questions. After the dismemberment, the bodies were taken by others and brought to Epping Forest in northeast London where they were buried.
51:06 Speaker 00 So, I mean, just based on that, it does make it seem as though this is a guy who had some experience, right? With dismembering bodies.
51:18 Speaker 01 Was this his, um, I'll do the prison time, but I want everything on record so I can't be charged down the road with anything else.
51:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why he confessed to that. On this day, Sarah Bush also pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice. She was acquitted of murder. She admitted that she was with Stephen when he disposed of Jeffrey's head and admitted to misleading the police and Jeffrey's friends by saying he had opted left, all while stealing his money. Her attorney said she acted under pressure because she was afraid of becoming the next victim. She was sentenced to three years and nine months. She received- Delenient sentence because she'd had a hard life. According to the Guardian, Sarah spent most of her childhood in foster care.
52:12 Speaker 00 Before she started doing sex work, she gave birth to her first baby. A few days after she turned 15. Her baby died when she was just 10 years old. During the hearing, the judge said that Stephen committed the murder. In a muddled and no doubt drug befuddled state. As Jeffrey was sleeping in the house. The judge told Sarah, you were well aware of what Stephen Marshall had done. You took advantage of Mr. How in life. And then after his death, you used his money.
52:44 Speaker 01 I think she got off light.
52:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, I think she got off a little light too. Now, I do believe that Stephen committed the murder. But you know, even from Sarah's own mouth. She held something over Stephen's face. Alright, after he was stabbed. I think she even said she participated in some of the dismemberment. But did she do so because she was scared for her life? And that's a question that frankly, I can't answer. I think that's what she put forward.
53:21 Speaker 01 And I can see how you could be afraid for your life with somebody like that. I'm actually surprised that he didn't try to take her out.
53:30 Speaker 00 Well, let's not forget, this is a guy who would not let her use the H in her name.
53:35 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
53:36 Speaker 00 So I don't think we can discount, you know, his controlling nature. And maybe give the benefit of the doubt that she was fearful. If he was able to do this, what, what could he do to her?
53:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:52 Speaker 00 Now that could be the truth. Or that could be a way for her to, to get a more lenient sentence. I don't know. After sentencing, it was announced that the police would question Stephen about the four additional victims. Investigators plan to review cold cases involving missing people and body parts found over the past 15 years. In March 2010, police announced that Stephen had refused to cooperate and was not answering their questions about additional bodies. So far, it doesn't seem like these cases have been resolved.
54:26 Speaker 01 Well, maybe he didn't want to go against the Adams family.
54:31 Speaker 00 Or maybe he had killed a lot more people earlier on.
54:36 Speaker 01 That's true, too.
54:37 Speaker 00 And he was using this whole, well, I was just, you know, in charge of the dismemberment part, when in fact, he could be a serial killer, for all we know. Stephen Marshall and Sarah Bush saw Jeffrey Howe as an easy victim. They likely assumed it would take a while for someone to notice. He was missing because he wasn't married, he didn't have any children, and they likely thought his remains would go unidentified. However, Jeffrey had friends and family who checked in on him regularly, and Sarah and Stephen left behind a trail of evidence that clearly pointed to their involvement in the murder and their theft
55:19 Speaker 00 afterwards. And I do think all of that is true, right? I think they saw him as an easy mark. And I think they went to great lengths, right, with the dismemberment, making sure his hands weren't found, taking off the guy's face.
55:35 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, that's a whole nother level.
55:39 Speaker 00 For what? A free place to stay and using some of his money? This guy wasn't a multimillionaire, but using his checking account to buy cocaine and some things on the internet?
55:51 Speaker 01 What were you gonna get? Maybe a few months before you had to pick up and go anyway?
55:55 Speaker 00 But again, how clearly are you thinking? Especially, you know, in the case of Stephen, if he was really just kind of coked up or doing drugs all the time, he probably wasn't thinking all that clearly.
56:09 Speaker 01 No.
56:10 Speaker 00 As we wrap this one up, Gibbs, it is pretty sad, you know, when you think about...
56:16 Speaker 00 Jeffrey, trying to help this guy out who he thought of as a friend, this guy and his girlfriend, and then just taking advantage of him in the worst way imaginable, ultimately killing him so that they could live rent free in his house and kind of use his money to buy things.
56:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, shameful. I mean, she's out, right?
56:42 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
56:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, she's definitely out.
56:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:46 Speaker 00 And given the fact that how we know things work over there compared to here, he got life minimum of 36 years, but even some of their minimums aren't really minimum.
57:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, so he could be out as well.
57:03 Speaker 00 So I don't know. I didn't see where he was out. Most likely, he's not yet, but he's gonna have a life, right, outside of prison.
57:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, as long as he doesn't do anything to put him back in.
57:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, at some point. But I want to go back to the fact that this guy, he could have a lot more murders under his belt.
57:24 Speaker 01 Could have.
57:26 Speaker 00 But the one thing we know is there's no incentive for him to disclose that.
57:32 Speaker 01 No, but wouldn't it? And couldn't you say if you can dismember a body, it's probably not that much more difficult for that individual to kill the person?
57:43 Speaker 00 You mean going back to the bodies before Jeffrey Howe?
57:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, I would say so. And maybe more will come out on that. I don't know. But that's it for our episode on Stephen Marshall. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out?
57:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, let's hear them.
58:00 Speaker 02 Hey, Mike and Mike. It's Carrie calling from Grand Junction, Colorado. I'm listening to the Dale Brunner case. Not so fun fact, if you look at Colorado crime statistics in the 2000s, well after the 2000s, you see an abrupt jump in the number of violent felonies in 2016. And that is because 2016 is the year that we finally made manual strangulation. A felony. Now, it only happens typically to women who are being abused by a domestic partner. So we still don't care that much. It's a class four felony. Attempted murder is a class two felony. I don't know when the last time is that either of you put your hands around someone's neck and choked them until they
58:42 Speaker 02 stopped breathing a little bit, but to me that seems pretty much like attempted murder. But anywho, I think this is actually one of the cases that um prompted the the legislature to make that change. Hopefully we'll actually get a little bit more reasonable change in the future and that if you choke a person to unconsciousness, it is in fact attempted murder. Um but you know, it only happens to women at the hands of their domestic partners. So probably not. But anyway, thanks for doing what you do. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
59:11 Speaker 00 Okay, that that is a little shocking. I gotta be honest with you that uh you know, we're not talking nineteen forty-two.
59:19 Speaker 01 No.
59:20 Speaker 00 This is not that long ago that they just changed that. But hey, you know, I love this country.
59:29 Speaker 01 I know you do.
59:30 Speaker 00 But we haven't always made the best decisions. I'll just leave it at that, right? Uh, the the country as a whole, state by state, you can look at all kinds of different decisions. Uh, you know, do we learn? Yeah, sometimes. Do we do better? Yeah, sometimes. Can we always do better? Yeah, definitely.
59:52 Speaker 01 Always.
59:54 Speaker 03 Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Anna calling from Gloucester, Massachusetts. Um, I have been listening to your podcast now for probably about six months. Um, I am up to the very beginning of twenty twenty-three. It was interesting to relive COVID through you. Um, I'm calling specifically about something that you often say, and that is that the jury knows more than you do. Um, and I actually served on a jury for an attempted murder case last summer and was struck by how much uh the jury doesn't hear because of all of the rules of evidence, um hearsay, things like that that go into
1:00:36 Speaker 03 putting a case on trial, um so much so that after the trial was over and we found the person not guilty, um.
1:00:46 Speaker 03 I followed up with a police detective and was able to learn about all of the things that we didn't learn. And obviously, you need to protect the defendant's rights, but I just thought it would be an interesting thing to let you know that the jury doesn't always know more than the public knows. So, thank you so much for all that you do. You really keep me company. Keep your own time ticking.
1:01:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a great point. I served on a jury years ago where we found a guy guilty, but even then, later on, the prosecutor came in to talk to the jury and was able to tell us like all kinds of really bad things that we weren't allowed to hear during the trial.
1:01:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:28 Speaker 00 I guess when I say that, I mean it about the things that are presented in court.
1:01:34 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:01:35 Speaker 00 You know what I'm saying? Whatever's presented in court, the jury is seeing it firsthand, hearing it firsthand. We don't have, we don't get to hear and see everything.
1:01:45 Speaker 01 That's true.
1:01:46 Speaker 00 That they do.
1:01:47 Speaker 01 I've never had to serve on a jury. I've been in front of a jury.
1:01:50 Speaker 00 Hmm. Yeah.
1:01:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:52 Speaker 00 It's much different.
1:01:53 Speaker 01 It is.
1:01:54 Speaker 00 But it's a great point that she's making, and we appreciate the voicemails as always. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:02:04 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:02:05 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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