Shilie Turner

Shilie Turner was a talented 17-year-old high school track star and team captain with a scholarship offer from Clemson and dreams of competing in the Olympics. On January 17, 1993, she told her mother she was going to a dance but actually spent the evening with her new boyfriend, Shaun Williams. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Shilie Turner. Around 1:00 a.m., Shaun walked Shilie to a bus stop. A bus driver confirmed she boarded alone and later got off near 60th and Girard, about six blocks from home. Shilie never made it home. Her mother, Vivian King, waited nearly 48 hours before reporting her missing. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:48Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 521 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I'm doing OK. How about you?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Doing great, man. We've got a great lineup for everyone on Unsolved out right now. We're talking about Jody Bordeaux, who was murdered nearly three decades ago in November 1997. Jody was seven months pregnant, and she was shot in the head when a hail of gunfire pierced the walls of her home in Kansas. So there's a lot going on. They believe she was targeted. We'll get into all of it.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, jump over and give it a listen.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Yep. And then on Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about college student Kathy Spizito, who was murdered in Arizona in 1987. It took over three decades, but investigators were able to use modern DNA technology to solve her case, which previously had no known suspects.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I love that. I love that it got solved.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a very fascinating story. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Tamatha Schaffner.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Hey, Tamatha.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Savannah Ankrum.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  What's going on, Savannah?

• 3:02Speaker 00

  BGM.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Thanks, B.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Kendra Doyle.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Well, Kendra.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Jimmy Buckles.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  You know, I just imagine Jimmy has like all these buckles.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  Reyna Lizaraga.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Oh, Reyna, but Lizaraga sounds so fun to say.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  It is. And last but not least, just Bobby.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bobby.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  And if we go back into the vault.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  This week, we selected Latice C.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Well, Latice.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  We really appreciate that.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  And then we had a couple of really great PayPal donations from Kelly Knudsen.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Thanks, Kelly.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  And Alexis Husky.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Wow, thanks, Alexis.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, they were sizable. We really appreciate that.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, love that.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I am.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  We're talking about Shelley Turner. Shelley was a high school track star, went missing after seeing her new boyfriend one night in January 1993. Police initially suspected her date was involved in her disappearance. But after several weeks, investigators uncovered a surprising suspect. Shelley Lachey Turner was born on March 15, 1975. Seventeen-year-old Shelley lived with her mother Vivian King, her stepfather Clarence Jones, and her two sisters in the Overbrook neighborhood of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She was a high school track star and a team captain. Friends described her as a natural-born leader.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  She was also extremely talented. She had so many medals, it was hard for her family to display them all.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  It's always tough when you have that many medals to figure out what walls to put them on.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know your parents had to dedicate a whole bedroom. One of your brothers had to give up his bedroom just so they could display all your medals and trophies and all of that.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  We did have the circle of excellence.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  It was said that Shelley ran everywhere, even to the grocery store. She was nicknamed Burner because her teammates said she ran so fast, she burned up the track. In the summer of 1992, she finished fifth in the national championship track competition in California. Her prized possession was a pair of white sneakers autographed by Olympic gold medalist Florence Griffith Joyner, which were signed at the competition.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a nice little trophy to get.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  It is. I remember Florence Griffith Joyner. She was an amazing track star for, you know, the US Olympic team.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  At the time of her death, Shelley had won a scholarship to Clemson University in South Carolina, but she was still deciding between Clemson and Florida A&M.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  It's a tough decision.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I think it just kind of shows you what type of athlete she was. Obviously, finishing fifth in a national championship, that's pretty good.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Typically, in that type of sprint races, it doesn't, uh, there's not a big gap between first and fifth.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  No, it's not like you're lapping people or you're running away for, for most people.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  They're usually pretty close. But, you know, Clemson's a big university, so a lot of people, it seemed like, maybe were after her.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  To run track. But her biggest dream was competing in the Olympics. Shelley's track coach, Tim Hickey, said, "This was not a far-fetched dream." Shortly before her death, she broke a state indoor track record by running the 800-meter race in 2 minutes and 15.3 seconds.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Wow, impressive.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  Seems pretty quick to me.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Now, I'm not a runner. I don't claim to run. I don't like to run. Hickey told the Philadelphia Daily News, "She was a national-class runner. She ran so well at so many types of races, she had tremendous range."

• 7:11Speaker 01

  That's what makes a really good track star for a university because not only can she run her events, but she can also pop around in other places as needed.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, and maybe some of the, uh, the medley races.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the relays, yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Relays and things like that. Hickey also spoke about Shelley's humility, saying she never made a big deal out of running or winning. She had that star quality as an athlete and a person.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  It's hard for some people to come by.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  It is, because let's face it, you can get a really big ego when you are viewed as a star. And that ego can kind of turn you into a different person.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  For some people. It doesn't sound like it happened to her. People talked about, you know, the fact that she was humble, and she just never made a big deal about, you know, any of it.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  By the way, do you need me to refill your M&M Bowl there before we continue on? Because I know that's something that you require.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  Are you trying to say that I have a big ego?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I'm not saying.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  First of all, I don't like M&Ms.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  The peanut ones, come on.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  I do like the peanut M&M's. But you know darn well, it's in my clause that I only get the yellow ones.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Which is weird, because most people only want the green ones.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm into the yellow ones.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  For whatever reason. Shelley was a good friend and a positive influence on her teammates. When her close friend got pregnant in their junior year of high school, she encouraged her to stay in school and to rejoin the track team. There did seem to be tensions, though, in Shelley's home life. She was often quiet and wasn't the type of person who complained often. But she did mention some conflict with her mother Vivian and told others she couldn't wait to graduate and go to college. According to Shelley's friend Kwanda, as quoted by Oxygen, "Shelley had a normal relationship with her mom, but Vivian worked long hours as a nurse's aide,

• 9:15Speaker 00

  so Shelley did most of the housework and took care of her little sister."

• 9:20Speaker 01

  It's a lot of responsibility.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  It is. And, you know, you're going to school. You've got all of this track time and practice and meets and all that. It could take a toll. I could see that. Back in 1993, Shelley's friend Kwan told the Philadelphia Daily News that Shelley mentioned Vivian's mood swings. She said sometimes she'd act crazy. She'd fly off the handle and they said she had a drinking problem. I remember her saying she couldn't wait to graduate and go to college.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably just wanted to get out of that environment and, and kind of thrive in your own space for a while.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I could see that. On the night of January 17th, 1993, Shelley told her mother she was going to a dance with a friend. She was expected to be home around 1 a.m., but she never returned. Vivian did not report Shelley missing until January 19th, almost 48 hours later.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kind of rough. You know, that's that critical timing.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  And it seems strange. I'm sure we're going to dive into it. You know, a mother waiting 48 hours to report her daughter missing. Vivian noted that Shelley hadn't come home from seeing a friend and had missed a track meet, which was highly unlike her. To me, seems like even more of a reason to report her missing early.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  It's a big red flag.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  It is. I don't want to bad mouth Vivian here, but you know, you kind of have to talk about it.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Investigators soon discovered that Shelley had a secret boyfriend named Sean Williams. Sean and Shelley had only been dating for about two weeks, but they had grown close in that time. Shelley's friend Andrea admitted she was not going to a dance the night she disappeared. She was actually going to hang out with Sean. Shelley got ready for the date at Andrea's place and Andrea agreed to cover for her if Vivian called. Andrea even loaned Shelley a leather jacket before she left.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  I mean, what kid hasn't fabricated a story to go out with somebody and not tell their parents?

• 11:38Speaker 00

  No, you've been pretty honest about some of your fabrications, staying over at this person's house or that person's house when you weren't doing any of that.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Sean told the police they spent the evening at home with his family. They listened to music in his bedroom. And when they realized it was around 1 a.m., Sean walked Shelley to the bus stop so she could go home. He said he last saw her getting on the bus at 10th Street and Gerard Avenue. So not hard to imagine, but Sean was an early suspect, but he was cleared after investigators found the bus driver working that night. He saw the couple part ways. Shelley boarded the bus alone and got off alone at 60th and Gerard, about a six block walk from her home.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  I'm sure Sean was happy that bus driver remembered him.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, because without it, okay, he's probably things firmly cemented on the radar.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  People in the neighborhood said this wasn't a particularly safe area in the daytime and at night, it could be very dangerous because of drug activity. Shelley's friends and family felt certain she didn't run away. She was in good spirits and as we've talked about, she had a ton going for her. Speaking to the Philadelphia Daily News, Vivian speculated that since Shelley was a fast runner, she would have been able to escape an attacker. They would have had to take her by surprise or someone she knew offered her run.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'd have to either surprise her or confine her in a way that she couldn't escape.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, like you and I talk about often, you can be fast. You could be a black belt in some martial art. You could be armed, but if you're taken by surprise and maybe incapacitated from behind, all of that kind of goes out the window because you never get a chance to use it. Vivian noted that normally Shelley took a trolley that dropped her off just two blocks from home, but perhaps she didn't want to wait, so she took the first bus that came. A week after Shelley disappeared, Vivian told the Daily News that she hadn't given up hope. She said, like they say, you don't give up until the fat

• 14:10Speaker 00

  lady sings. They have to show something to me before I'll give up.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Who is this fat lady that's always singing?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  I, you know, I don't know. I'm sure that's an opera thing, but seems derogatory, maybe a little bit of body shaming.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  I'm not sure it's something that will fly today in today's environment.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Probably not.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  But I don't know if people have given up using it, but I'm with you. I don't know who this person is. Two weeks after Shelley went missing, Vivian reflected on how she was feeling, saying, sometimes I burst out in tears. Sometimes I just pray. I gotta keep up because if I break down, who is really going to look for her? I want her home so bad. And we talked about it, right? 48 hours seemed like a long time when you thought your daughter was going to be home at a certain time. You wait 48 hours after that, but obviously, at least according to her, she's, she's broken up. This is her daughter and she's missing.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  33 days after Shelley went missing, investigators got a break in the case. On February 20th, 1993, a man walking his dog through a wooded area of Fairmount Park, found a young woman's body under leaves and debris. She was lying face up, frozen and partially decomposed. The victim had been shot in the head, chest and hand. Her shoes and socks were missing and she did not have a jacket on. Because it was winter, the body needed to be defrosted before it could be identified, but investigators recognized the distinctive purple tracksuit Shelley Turner was last seen wearing. So February in

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Philadelphia can get extremely cold.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  It really can.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Everybody knows that. No shoes and socks, doesn't have a jacket on, no way that she went out like that, right? That had to have happened at some point during or after the attack.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  When detectives broke the devastating news to Vivian King, she immediately named Shelley's track coach, Tim Hickey as a suspect. She alleged that she thought it was inappropriate for Hickey to spend so much time with girls in the track team and that he had taken a strong liking to Shelley.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  That's a pretty bold claim right out the gate.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is. Now I get it. You know, you're grief stricken. Do you kind of blurt something out that maybe later on you wish you didn't say? It's possible.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  But Hickey had an alibi. He attended a party that night with friends, which was confirmed by witnesses. The church where Shelley's funeral was held was packed with people. Journalist Devon Laddi attended the service and thought it was strange that Shelley's sisters were crying, but her mother was waving at people and approached Devon to ask how she was doing.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  She thought it was strange that her sisters were having a breakdown, but her mom seemed pretty chill.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, could it be that a person is all cried out by the time the funeral occurs? Possibly, but it is going to look pretty strange.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Right? When the rest of the family is sobbing uncontrollably and you as the mother are almost acting like you're playing host at a house party.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  But some people just have a weird way of acting during this time.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  That's true. Yeah, you have to be careful, right? About putting too much emphasis on how someone is acting in a certain situation, but I do think we have to keep it all in mind, right? The 48 hour wait to report Shelley missing, the way she's acting at the funeral. Okay. Does it mean something? Does it mean nothing? After the funeral, Vivian went on a local radio show to discuss the case to the host's shop. Vivian described in detail what Shelley looked like as she was killed, mentioning details such as her teeth were glistening in the moonlight.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  What?

• 18:43Speaker 00

  That is so strange.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  After the interview, the radio host called the police who agreed that the details were something only the killer would know. Her teeth were glistening in the moonlight. So this was not, hey, this is what she looked like when she was found.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  This sounds like this is what she looked like when she was killed.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  And who wouldn't know that besides the person that killed her?

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Well, the police obviously thought it was strange. The radio host thought it was strange and investigators had been hearing stories that Vivian and Shelley had a rocky relationship sometime on the afternoon of March 6th, 1993. Vivian called the detectives and said she had been hearing rumors about herself.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Okay. So she wants to get some details from the police, why she, what these rumors are about.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, or maybe wants to get ahead of things or neighbors told the Philadelphia Daily News that detectives were in the neighborhood that day, asking if anyone knew about problems between Vivian and Shelley. When Vivian called detectives, she asked if they thought she needed a lawyer. They suggested she come in and they would talk to her about it. During her interview, Vivian continued trying to cast suspicion on Coach Tim Hickey. She was asked to take a polygraph and according to retired detective James Dougherty is quoted by Oxygen, Vivian put her head back and opened her mouth really wide. An ungodly

• 20:24Speaker 00

  laugh came from inside her. He said to this day, I still get chills in my bones.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  I got chills just thinking about it.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  You're taking a polygraph about the death of your daughter. At what point does that evoke the response of this maniacal laugh?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  It seems so strange. Vivian failed the polygraph. When she received the results, she began crying and said, you must think I'm a monster. Only a monster could have done this.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I do.

• 21:02Speaker 00

  And I think they, they might've thought she was a monster for a number of different reasons. Right? She had the, the waiting 48 hours. What's that all about? Acting strange at Shelley's funeral? And now this kind of strange interaction where you're being asked questions? And you open your mouth really wide and like cackle? I'm trying to picture it. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince, but what I continually go for is their activewear flow net line.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and merino wool. Their styles are amazing and they design their clothes to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweater started just $60 and they are incredibly soft. And we know temperatures are getting ready to drop. Those sweaters are perfect. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make. I love their bedding.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  They even have kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. Eventually Gibbs Vivian confessed to killing her own daughter.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Wow. How do you do that? I know we've done other cases where parents have killed their kids, but how do you do that?

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Well, most people listening cannot imagine any scenario, right? Where it would even get close to that point. Vivian recalled that she was drinking heavily while waiting for Shelley to come home. When Shelley walked in around 3am, they got into a physical altercation. She was angry with Shelley for staying out past her 1am curfew and accused her of hanging around the wrong people. She claimed Shelley armed herself with a knife. Vivian went upstairs to get her gun and ordered Shelley to get into the car.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  She told her she was going to take her to the police station, but instead she drove her to Fairmont Park. Vivian said, I told her to get out of the car if she wanted to fight me. They got into a physical altercation again at the park. Vivian claimed she hit Shelley with the butt of her gun. When Shelley went to pick up a bottle, Shelley lost consciousness and Vivian shot her in the chest, hand and head. Okay. Tell me on what planet this story makes an ounce of sense.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Only in Vivian's head.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I, I don't understand it at all. I get it. You're upset if your daughter comes home two hours past curfew. I understand that you're upset, but now you're saying that this girl, who by everyone's account is a great person. Her first reaction is to arm herself with a knife. Then your reaction is to get your gun to defend yourself. I'm assuming is what she's saying. But then you order her into the car. Tell her you're going to the police station, but you go to the park and you say, hey, get out of the car if you want to fight me.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  None of this makes sense.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  And every mom listening to this is this is total BS. Nobody would do this. And even if this was remotely true, then you have to believe that when they get into this physical altercation, Shelley goes to pick up a bottle. Vivian hits her with the butt of the gun. Okay. Could you see that happening? Possibly. But even Vivian said that her daughter lost consciousness. And that's when she shot her in the chest, hand and head.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, she decided to kill her right then.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  If she's unconscious, where is the threat at that point?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Nowhere, just walk away. But it didn't happen that way.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  No, I don't believe it did either. But how telling is it that even in her own story, which is pretty far fetched and unbelievable, she's still saying she's a murderer.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, her own words basically said she was unconscious, but I went ahead and killed her anyway.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  On March 7th, 1993, Vivian was charged with murder. Authorities revealed that she confessed to shooting her daughter in the park, but investigators actually suspected the shooting occurred inside the home. Police found two bullet holes in the wall and ceiling. Shelley's 10 year old sister also told police she heard gunshots. Police believe Vivian dragged Shelley's body out of the house and drove her to Fairmont Park, then returned home and cleaned the crime scene.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  That's a more believable story.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Much more believable, I think to both you and I, and probably everyone listening. Besides the bullet holes, police found no bloodstains or other evidence of a crime in the house or in Vivian's vehicle. Now, is that because the murder didn't happen at the home? Or she was really good at cleaning up? I don't know. Neighbors also didn't see or hear anything suspicious. Police didn't consider Vivian's husband, Clarence Jones, a suspect. He worked as a newspaper delivery man. So he was most likely at work at the time of the crime.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Two guns were seized from the family's home, but neither was identified as the murder weapon.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  That's bizarre, but there could have been a third gun and she could have disposed of it.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, she definitely could have. But then why kind of tell this story basically saying, yeah, my daughter was unconscious and I shot her. I don't know. The whole thing is, is weird at this point. After the arrest, Shelley's coach, Tim Hickey, said he found out that Vivian had tried to blame him and others. He also said that Shelley made it clear that she didn't like living at home, but never said why. He said, she couldn't wait to get out of her house. She made that crystal clear. She wanted to get out and go to college, but I don't recall any indications of abuse. It wasn't an everyday thing, but she didn't get along with her mother.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  I don't ever recall her talking of having any good times with her mother. Does not sound like a very good mother daughter relationship.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Does not.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Shelley's boyfriend, Sean Williams, told the Philadelphia Daily News. I just want to ask her why? Why did she do this? Every teenager makes mistakes, but I can't understand this. Williams recalled suggesting that Shelley call her mom and let her know she'd be late. She did try once, but the line was busy. She said it didn't matter that she would be all right and left his home. And I understand getting upset, you know, over the years. It hasn't happened often, but there've been times when my daughters have done something that, you know, made me less than happy. Right? Let's put it that way. Missing curfew. Okay. I get it. You're breaking a rule.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  But you know, there's taking away a phone, there's grounding, there's all kinds of different avenues that a parent can take.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Driving to a park and challenging a fistfight and then knocking your daughter unconscious and shooting her to death. How do we get to that point?

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that resolve.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Over being two hours late. Now, there might've been a whole other bunch of things going on, right? In the relationship, but it doesn't matter what they are. They, none of it should have risen to this level.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Your own flesh and blood. How could you do that?

• 30:02Speaker 00

  You gave birth to this girl.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I get it. I brought you in this world. I'll take you out of this world. But that was always just something.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  That was just a saying, right? People don't actually do that. On March 9th, Vivian met with Reverend Albert F. Campbell at the jail and told him she was recanting her confession, saying, as God is my witness, I did not kill my daughter.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  I killed somebody. Now you want to take it back.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Well, the taking back or the recanting of a confession very rarely goes well, right? Let's be honest about that. Campbell told the Daily News, I asked her why she had confessed, and she said, if I had been where she was under the threats and verbal assaults she had, she insisted whatever confessions she signed was coerced. She said it was not voluntary.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Well, we have seen some shows and heard some cases that that could happen.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, there have been coerced confessions, right? No doubt about it throughout the years. Campbell said that Vivian also raised questions such as, how could she carry Shelley out of the house? How come no one else heard the gunshot? Now, the carrying her out of the house, that's a question that has to be answered.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  But somebody did hear gunshots who was inside the house. Now, neighbors didn't. But again, we don't know how far away the houses, you know, were. We don't know what type of insulation these houses had. All of that plays a factor.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  It does.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  According to Campbell, she made some very strong arguments. I'm not saying I believe her whole story, but there are some things that are believable. And you know, that's the thing about people who lie to me. Normally, there are some parts of it that are believable.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  You have to throw some believability in there with the lie.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  And weave them together.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's kind of important when you're trying to get out from under something. Clarence Jones also came forward for his first public interview after the arrest because he wanted to address rumors and lies. He noted that Vivian was not his wife, but they had lived together and been in a relationship for 12 years. He also said, everyone is saying I had something going on with Shelley. They should take that lie right back. I never abused or used her. I treated her like a father. Nothing sexual was going on. The rumor that

• 32:45Speaker 00

  Shelley was impregnated by him and had an abortion five months earlier was also a lie. According to Jones, Shelley did have an abortion in 1992 because she got pregnant and did not want to have a child. He said, we wanted her to further her career. I was hoping she would get to the Olympics more than anyone. Having a baby would only hurt her career. So I paid for it. All right. Lot of rumors, right? In a case like this, if you're the stepdad and you didn't have anything to do with this, man, this guy was

• 33:23Speaker 00

  being raked through the mud. Now, if some of this was true, rightfully so. But if none of it was true, you feel bad for the guy.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  And you also have to wonder, who's putting out all those rumors?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Well.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Is it Vivian's camp trying to muddy the waters?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Not a bad thing for them to do.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  No, no, probably not. Another lie, according to him, was that Shelley was forced to cook, clean, take care of her younger sister, and was beaten by both him and Vivian. He said that when Shelley was missing, people would call the house and say they knew where she was. After the body was found, they received nasty phone calls that caused Vivian to fall into depression.

• 34:13Speaker 02

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• 34:44Speaker 00

  Jones also said that the police asked them to come in for questioning on March 6th, not the other way around. They were separated for about 12 hours, and he was asked if he killed Shelley. And about the rumors, Jones said he passed a polygraph. He also said his daughter Clara told him she was afraid to tell him about what she heard that night, fearing what Vivian might do to her.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  So people were afraid of Vivian?

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Well, Clara was, for sure. He said when he left for work at 3:30 a.m. on January 18th, Shelley wasn't home. He got home at 7:30 a.m. and Vivian was awake but lying in bed. She said Shelley was probably at a friend's house. He saw no blood or other evidence of violence in the house. He didn't know what to believe. And he said, I'm confused. This has got me messed up in the head. I don't know how they made her say that. Sometimes it doesn't have to be voluntary. They just keep putting stuff in your head. He also said that Vivian was not an alcoholic and that their family was stable. It wasn't a

• 35:53Speaker 00

  troubled household, no more than anywhere else. She hit Shelley, but when I was there, I stepped between them. So again, if you didn't have anything to do with this, I could see how you would be very confused.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Lot of moving pieces.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  And, you know, nasty phone calls, a lot of rumors swirling, some that involved him. But he is, Gibbs, I think, deep down, kind of defending Vivian more than anything else. You know, saying she wasn't an alcoholic, her confession wasn't voluntary. Now, he did say it wasn't a troubled household, but she did hit Shelley, and he had to step in between them.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  It's one-off. Maybe it's not a troubled household, but.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Well, it also, I guess, depends on what he means by the word hit.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  We talking spankings? Are we talking slaps across the face? Because there's a big difference in some of those forms of punishment.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Who's doing the spanking?

• 37:02Speaker 00

  Well, we're not trying to dip into your sordid personal life here, if that's where you're going. But, you know, again, words matter, right? And when you don't have all of the context, then there's a little bit of gray area there.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  To me, I would use the word spank if it was a spanking. Hit, in my mind, is a much different word.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  But I don't know what he meant. Jury selection for Vivian's murder trial started on October 13th, 1993. In opening statements, ADA Judith Rabinow told the jury that Shelley was a track star who could possibly qualify for the 1996 Olympics. Instead of being proud of her daughter, Vivian, who also ran track in high school, didn't go to her track meets and cause trouble in the household. She said she was a drinker. She had a terrible temper, cursed at people, and was known to always carry a gun.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Maybe I don't want to see my daughter be successful because I didn't get my chance to do that and just hold that anger over.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think there's, it can go a couple of different ways, right? People can be extremely proud of their kids' achievements, especially when they're, you know, let's say, in sports at a very high level. Some people can live vicariously through their kids. And then some people can be resentful because their kids are accomplishing things that they wish they could have, but they never did. And that might be what we're talking about here.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Vivian signed a statement admitting she was drunk when she shot Shelley.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Back during her original interrogation?

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. The prosecution also noted that a week after Shelley was reported missing, Vivian packed up a box of her trophies and sent them to Shelley's father, Alvin Turner, who did not know he had a daughter with Vivian.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  So two things with that statement, right? I mean, one, he didn't even know. What the heck? And more importantly, what are you doing? Sending him trophies and stuff right after she's been reported missing?

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Well, if you don't know that she's not coming back, right? That seems like such a strange thing to do.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Why would you get rid of anything? But maybe it's because she already knew what had happened and knew she wasn't coming back.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, just cleaning house.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Defense attorney Jack McMahon argued that the police didn't have evidence that Vivian killed Shelley. The police accused, threatened her, yelled, cursed, and then they would leave and come back over and over again, and they kept at her. Vivian confessed to end the emotional abuse. He noted that Vivian did not have a registered 38 caliber gun, which had been identified as the murder weapon. The murder weapon was never recovered. The prosecution countered that guns are easy to get, and Vivian could have disposed of it. And I think you said that earlier. I mean, it would be pretty dumb to use a gun

• 40:36Speaker 00

  registered to you and then return that gun to a safe in your home.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be really stupid, but.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  There's a lot of stupid people out there.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  McMahon noted that Vivian's 10-year-old daughter and Clarence Jones were home in the early hours of January 18th, but no one heard an argument because Shelley Turner never came home that night. The defense argued that she was killed by a robber as she was walking home. The medical examiner testified that a bullet went into Shelley's brain and another went into her left cheek. She was shot in the back of the head, back of the neck, and in the chest and hand. She had two distinct blows to the forehead, but the medical examiner couldn't say if she was knocked unconscious by these blows. But to

• 41:30Speaker 00

  me, the medical examiner's testimony is kind of lining up with what Vivian told investigators.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  That's the way I'm looking at it.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Right. Hit her in the head with the butt of the gun. She was unconscious. And then I shot her a number of times. The jury heard from Mary Mason, the talk show host for WHAT Radio, who interviewed Vivian before her arrest. Mason testified that Vivian described how Shelley reacted as she was being shot. She said Shelley threw up her hands in the air to defend herself. Her pearly white teeth were glistening. I mean, if that's not, I was at the scene, I don't know what to make of it. Mason testified, I asked her if she

• 42:21Speaker 00

  knew what she just did. She described the killing of her daughter. And I asked her woman to woman, mother to mother, if she shot Shelley. She said she was not a killer, and I just assumed the detectives told her that. But obviously, we know the detectives didn't because they were shocked because they don't know how anyone could have known that but the killer.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  The ADA noted that only photos of victims' heads were shown to relatives for identification, and that the defensive wounds on Shelley's arms would not have been described to Vivian. Mason interviewed Vivian before Shelley's body was found and after the funeral. Vivian wanted to go on the show because of rumors. Mason recalled, every day we were getting phone calls that the mother did the killing. It was so horrible, I just ignored it. Mason testified that Vivian never cried and showed no emotion during her interviews. After the body was found, she called Vivian and offered to raise a $25,000 reward for information,

• 43:32Speaker 00

  and even offered to put up $10,000 of her own money. But Vivian wasn't interested.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  That's so weird. I mean, if you didn't do it, why wouldn't you want this? Right? You'd want to do everything you can to bring justice to your daughter. Now, if you did it, then you wouldn't want this.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  No, I'm saying if you did it, you would want it too. You're trying to

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  You're trying to make it look like you didn't do it.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you want to throw them off.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  So by saying, nah, I don't want to put up a reward, you're just throwing yet another red flag against you.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you really are.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Shelley's track coach, Tim Hickey, testified that Vivian didn't pay attention to what Shelley was doing in track or in school, only to what she wasn't doing around the house. He called Vivian's treatment of Shelley, mental abuse. When he spoke to Vivian, she often called Shelley a bitch.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  That's nice. Your daughter, and that's how you're going to describe your daughter?

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Horrible, right?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  He spoke to Vivian about three tournaments Shelley needed to attend because college recruiters would be there, but Vivian didn't seem interested. She said she had her own life to live, and who was going to take care of Clara, her other daughter, if Shelley went to the meets? She seemed interested in Shelley just getting a job.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  I mean, how selfish is that? Right? She's like, hey, I'm working. I don't want to have to take care of my other daughter. That's why I have Shelley.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think selfish is a really good word for it. And maybe, you know, jealous, envious, there's some other words that maybe come to mind because if she doesn't attend these meets, does she maybe not get into some of these big profile schools that she might get a scholarship to, and therefore go away and leave the home, and not be able to do everything around the home that Vivian wants? According to Hickey, Vivian attended only two or three meets out of more than 100 that Shelley participated in.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I get it. You're working, but you can't find time to go to a little bit more meets than just the two or three?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I understand. You can't make everything, right? Work schedules and all of that, but two or three out of 100, when you were into track yourself,

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  it does seem like you didn't go out of your way. Let's, let's put it that way. Police Officer Britannia Logan testified that Vivian was unusually calm when she reported Shelley missing. Logan asked her why she was so calm and why she waited to report her daughter missing. Vivian replied, you don't know teenagers.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Okay, thinking what? Teenagers can disappear and come back, so just really wasn't that worried?

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, but when you put it all together, right? She waited so long to report her daughter missing. She goes on these interviews and doesn't shed a tear, shows no emotion. None of this looks good.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  In opening arguments, ADA Judith Rubino said that Vivian reported Shelley missing on trash day and may have waited to get rid of evidence.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Maybe that's where the gun went.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Could be, or bloody rags, or sheets, or whatever. Officer Angela Parker handled the missing persons investigation. Vivian told her Shelley was no damn runaway, and that she wanted her daughter's photo on the news. Okay, that's what you expect a mom to say.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  My daughter didn't run away. We need to get her photo in the newspaper, on the news, everywhere. Officer Parker noticed that Shelley's trophies and medals were on display, but that her bedroom was unusual. She only had a thin sheet and a bedspread on the bed, but her younger sister had blankets and pillows. Her closet door was also off its hinges. When Parker asked for Shelley's bedding, Vivian got angry. Parker said, she threw profanities at me and said, I'm sick of all this. Take what you want, and don't come back. Okay, you're saying this to the person who is trying to find your daughter?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, trying to help you.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Now, why does Shelley not have a lot of stuff on her bed? Why does she not have bedding? Could it be that it had to be thrown away?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Possible.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  And that's why Vivian's getting upset because she thinks this lady's getting too close to the truth. Alvin Turner testified that he had a week-long affair with a woman in 1974, but he couldn't be 100% certain that the Vivian King on trial was that woman. Alvin was married and had a teenage daughter at the time of trial. He testified that he met Vivian in a Miami airport bar. She walked over and sat next to him. They exchanged numbers, but he had a flight. He returned to Miami a month later with his two sons. He called Vivian, and they took a trip to Key West. He didn't know if she was married

• 49:11Speaker 00

  at the time. After the trip, Vivian left her six-year-old daughter, Trina, behind and came to Philadelphia with Alvin. A week later, after a heated argument, he bought her a ticket back to Miami. And then two years later, he saw her at a bar in Philadelphia. And again, a year later on the street, they spoke briefly, and she said the baby was fine. Alvin said he didn't give it a thought. Five years later, Vivian came to his house. They spoke briefly, and she said her daughter was fine. Again, he said he didn't give it a thought. When Shelley was nine, she went to his home with a greeting card addressed

• 49:54Speaker 00

  to dad, but he wasn't home. His wife came to the door and took the card. He did not attempt to find her. So, I mean, you make of that testimony what you want.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  The baby is fine. Okay. My baby? I, I might have some questions.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  To, to that, uh, statement.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  What are you trying to say to me?

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Maybe he just didn't want to know the truth. I mean, he was married. He had other kids. I don't know. In December, 1992, someone left press clippings and photos of Shelley's track successes in his doorway with a note. He believed was written by Vivian. The note said Shelley was going to college and was doing well. It was then that he finally realized she was his daughter and he was happy. He wanted to go to one of her track meets, but he never got the chance before she went missing. He received a box of her trophies and medals the day before her body was found.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  The box contained three notes. One was addressed to his daughter and appeared to be from Shelley. The other note was addressed to him and was also signed by Shelley. The third note informed the Turners when the next Shelley Turner rally was going to be held and was signed by Vivian.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  The whole thing is weird. Although two of the notes seemed like they were from Shelley. It turned out that all of them were in Vivian's handwriting. Vivian's defense explained that she sent the trophies because she heard that Alvin's daughter had pictures of Shelley on the wall. And she wanted to reach out. She also sent a small amount of trophies out of thousands that Shelley had won. Okay. That still doesn't clear it up for me.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Why are you faking notes as though they came from your daughter? Right? One to Alvin, one to Alvin's daughter. What's the purpose?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  I think it's to make it appear that she's still alive.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  But then why send the trophies?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  I think Vivian didn't want to have anything left behind that was going to remind her of Shelley.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's possible, but you know, according to her, she only sent a few out of the hundreds and hundreds that Shelley had won. Now we don't know if that's truthful or not.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Detective James Doertie read Vivian's original statement to the jury. In her statement, Vivian said Shelley came home around 3:00 AM. Vivian was drunk and was in the kitchen getting food. I asked her where in the hell she was coming from at that time of night. She told me she was tired of me getting on her case. They began fighting. Shelley grabbed Vivian by the chest and hit her. Vivian grabbed Shelley and spun her around. Shelley grabbed a knife and said she could never please her mother. Vivian said, I asked her what she was going to do with the knife, but I don't remember what she said. And then I ran upstairs and she followed me up there and I went under my mattress and got the gun.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  My gun. And she came toward me and I hit her on the side of the face with the gun. She told Shelley she wasn't going to live there anymore. And she was going to take her to the police station. She got her gun and told Shelley to get in the car. As they drove, according to Vivian, we were arguing and she was crying. And she was telling me how she hated me and it made me madder because of all that I had done for her. I asked her if she wanted to fight me, but I don't remember what she said. She drove to the park and stopped in the grass. She told Shelley to get out and asked her if she wanted to fight. Shelley said she did, and they walked into the woods.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  That's when she picked up a bottle and Vivian said she hit her on the side of the head on something on the ground. She was just laying there and not saying anything. She was just laying there with one hand kind of up by her face. Then I just shot her. And I know Vivian has said that this statement was coerced. And maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, right? There's really no way for us to know.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  If it wasn't, this is about as damning as it gets.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  She told the police that she and Shelley were having problems before the shooting because she had been hanging around to bag crap. Vivian's youngest daughter Clara Jones testified that she never heard Shelley come home. On the morning of January 18th, she had a way of telling who was arriving home based on their footsteps. Shelley always ran inside.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Well, you do that here.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's kind of funny because you and I know who in the family is walking around based on the sound of their footsteps.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And once they're identified, there is heck to pay.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  They get a phone call.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  They do by you right here, right then.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Clara's statement about hearing the gunshots was not allowed into evidence because both the prosecution and the defense believed it was false. And that's interesting.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Clarence Jones testified that he got up at 2:30 AM for work and Shelley was still not home. He made coffee and left at 3:30 AM and she was still not home. Vivian was asleep in her room when he left. And this is interesting because according to Vivian, Shelley got home around 3:00 AM.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  And Clarence is saying, no, I left at 3:30 AM and she still wasn't home. In cross-examination, the prosecutor noted that Jones told police he left home at 2:30 AM, which he denied. He did admit he and Vivian were sleeping in separate rooms and had separate lives. Vivian got on the stand towards the end of her trial. The prosecutor read her confession line by line and asked why she said certain things. Vivian repeated, I don't remember. I don't recall what I said. I had to tell them something and I did. And it's interesting. She remembers some things during the confession, but then she says, well, I don't remember what

• 56:26Speaker 00

  Shelley said, right? In response to what I told her. And you know, portions of her confession were true. She had been drinking. She had been having trouble with Shelley ever since her abortion. She did call the mother of Shelley's best friend the day after she disappeared. Vivian explained she had to make up a story so they would stop questioning her. She confessed to hitting Shelley with the butt of her gun because she saw a photo that showed bruises over her eyes in the medical examiner's office. She said she killed Shelley in the park, but the detectives who interviewed her were saying she did it in the home. Vivian initially claimed she was never read her rights,

• 57:11Speaker 00

  but then admitted to reading and signing a statement that explained her rights. She said, I thought it was a formality, a procedure. I didn't know they were going to accuse me of killing Shelley. I thought I was doing the right thing. I mean, she is caught in a ton of lies.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  She is.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Now she testified that during her 10 hour interrogation, detectives cursed and yelled at her until she caved and falsely confessed. She said, those are lies. I told them I loved my daughter. She testified that she wasn't given any food and was not allowed to go to the bathroom or see her daughter who was in another room. When they told her she felt the polygraph, she said, they told me I was a liar, a no good mother. Now, under cross-examination, Vivian acknowledged that she didn't ask for food, was offered coffee and water and was escorted to the bathroom at least twice during the interrogation.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  So just more of her lies.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, she, it's at least by my way of thinking continually lies and then basically tells everyone that she has lied. On November 4th, 1993, the jury found Vivian King guilty of third degree murder. The verdict indicated that jurors believed Vivian did not intend to kill Shelley, only to hurt her. One juror told the Philadelphia Daily News that they felt that if Vivian hadn't testified, they would have found her not guilty.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  She contradicted herself and they thought she was faking her emotions. It seemed like she knew things only the killer would know. And that's why defense attorneys don't want their clients to take the stand.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  They know better than you. Stay off the stand.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  But that's a, that's a big statement.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  It is.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  That if she hadn't taken the stand, she might have, or most likely would have been found not guilty.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  I mean, to hear that and you're sitting in prison, you're probably like, ah, why did I insist on having to go up there and do my thing?

• 59:28Speaker 00

  But I'm kind of shocked at third degree murder.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  I was too.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  I, I, I get it. Maybe not first degree because the premeditation wasn't there. But how did we jump from first to third?

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  We skipped second. On June 2nd, 1994, Vivian was sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison. She said at the hearing is quoted by the Philadelphia Daily News, I did not kill my daughter. I know the jury found me guilty of the crime. I know you have to do what you must, sir, but I must ask you to be lenient with me, sir. Just give me a chance to prove myself that I am not the person people say I am. I'm sure the judge really took that to heart.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  In the fall of 1994, paternity testing determined that Alvin Turner was not Shelley's father.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Wow, she didn't have it right. She thought he was.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Well, I might say a little bit more about what she was doing around that time.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  That she doesn't even know who the father is. Or maybe she did know who the father is, but she wanted to pin it on this guy. I don't really know. In early 1994, Vivian sent a letter to the welfare department notifying them that Shelley had been killed. She provided them with Turner's address and asked them to recover over $8,000 in child support. The welfare department's child support enforcement unit thought that this was strange for her to make the request after her child died. So they set out to determine if Turner was the father. The crime lab still had samples of Shelley's blood on file. Turner was summoned

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  to give his own blood sample, and Vivian also gave a sample from prison. And that's how they found out that he wasn't the father. And according to the Philadelphia Daily News, only Vivian knows who Shelley's biological father really is. And I mean, I mean, you gotta have a set of balls on you.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  To, from prison, try to recoup $8,000 in child support from a man who's not even your daughter's father.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Sounds like extortion.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  What is she trying to do? Get $8,000? And she thinks that's going to be applied to her, uh, her cantina or whatever it's called?

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  $8,000, that's a lot of, uh, walking tacos and cigarettes and...

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Ramen noodles?

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  $8,000 would go a long way if you had that on your books.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  But the audacity of that, right, to even try that from jail is, I mean, I think it speaks volumes about, you know, who this woman is.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  According to a 2020 article by Oxygen, Vivian has served her sentence and currently lives in Philadelphia. And I get it, right? I mean, it's been quite a while.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has.

• 1:02:35Speaker 00

  She only got 10 to 20, and we don't know exactly how much she even did. I don't think she got enough, personally. But I get it. You know, if you come back with third degree, well, there's a sentencing guideline.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  There is.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  That the judge has to work with. I'm still not exactly sure how they arrived at third degree, but they did say, without her testimony, they probably would have found her not guilty. So maybe that was a, it was good that they even got that.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Well, maybe just the jury was comfortable coming back with third degree.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And sometimes, you know, maybe compromises are made within the jury room. You never know. If there really were some people that thought she wasn't guilty, maybe they had to compromise, and that's what they came up with. I don't, I'm not sure. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I don't think there's any doubt, right? Shelley and Vivian had a turbulent relationship. A lot of people believe that Vivian was jealous of her daughter's success. And the one thing you'd have to say is that this girl had a bright future ahead of her.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Sure she did.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  She was gonna run track at some college.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  And most likely a high level college. She even had a chance at competing in the Olympics, but her life was tragically cut short by her own mother.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  And it's hard to swallow.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  It really is. And for what reason? Because she was jealous of her and her achievements? Because she was two hours late from her curfew? I, I don't know, but whatever the reason is, it wouldn't help anyone understand how a mother could kill their own daughter.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  And now she has to live with that the rest of her life.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  She does. You know, I, I wonder with some of these people, how hard that actually is to do. For most of us, it would be near impossible.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  But for some people, maybe not that hard.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. They just move on.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  Depends on what type of person you are. And I'm not sure she was the best person in the world. Let's just put it that way.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Didn't sound like it.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  But that's it for our episode on Shelley Turner. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Let's hear it.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Hi, Mike and Gibby. Um, my name's Amber, and I'm calling from New Hampshire. And I didn't know who you guys were at all, but I'm here with my friend, um, Christina Wentworth, who's also from Colbrook, New Hampshire. And, um, she's a huge fan, like to the point where she heard your voicemail, and she's like dancing around and like doesn't know what to say. But anyway, Christina, say hi. Hi, Mike and Gibby. I love you so much. What have you changed my life? You've changed my life. And I have to listen to her. Yeah, I listen to your guys' podcast all the time. I've heard every episode. Would

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  love to meet you. Um, anyway, so besides her being a fan, we wanted to tell you that, um, the, we love your podcast, but you guys need to cover the Bear Brook murders in New Hampshire. Um, Christina didn't know about them. She's lived in New Hampshire her whole life. But anyway, I'm sure you've heard about them. Fascinating case. What's it called? What's the guy's name? Russ Newson? Yes. Terry. Russ Newson? He went by a lot of names, but he's also the chameleon, uh, known as the chameleon because he was in California. Anyway, I think part of it's still unsolved. We just listened to New Hampshire. I listened to New Hampshire Public Radio about it. And so I think part of it's still a little unsolved. We think there's something

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  still fishy about it. So we'd love to hear you guys cover it. And, um, shout out from Colbrook, New Hampshire. Love you.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  All right. We love you too.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  We do.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  So excited.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that was awesome.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, we definitely love you. And very familiar with the Bear Brook murders. I think that probably the reason we haven't done it so far is because there have been whole podcasts, right? Dedicated to just that case. But I'm sure it's something that we will cover at some point.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  I'm glad to hear it from New Hampshire.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was a great accent. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So from Mike.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

• 1:07:43Speaker 04

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