Sherry Black

In November 2010, 64-year-old Sherry Black was brutally murdered inside the rare-book store she operated next to her home in South Salt Lake City, Utah. Sherry was a beloved wife, mother, grandmother, and lifelong book collector, and investigators struggled to understand why anyone would want to hurt her. Despite finding the killer’s blood, fingerprints, and other evidence at the scene, there were no matches in law-enforcement databases, and the case eventually went cold. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Sherry Black, the years her family spent searching for answers, and the remarkable advances in DNA technology that finally gave investigators the breakthrough they desperately needed. Nearly a decade later, investigators turned to the emerging field of forensic genetic genealogy, launching a painstaking search through family trees and potential relatives. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 2:21Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 542 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you?

• 2:34Speaker 00

  I'm doing great, you know? Happy to be in the studio with you. It's always a fun time of the week.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  To get together.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Sounds so believable.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  It is. No, it really is the fun part of what we do.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Tara.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Hey, thanks, Tara.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Erin Doherty.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  What's going on, Doherty?

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Tracy Thompson.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Hey, Thompson.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  Anna.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Well, good old Anna.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Amber Brethauer.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Ah, like some Bret Hala.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  It's so creepy when you say it that way. Bruce Preston.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Hey, Preston.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  And last but not least, Abby Stevenson.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Well, thanks, Stevenson.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  And then if we go into the vaults.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  This week, we selected John Sanderson.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Awesome. Thanks, Sanderson.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, we appreciate the new support, the continued support. Gibbs, we have a new episode out right now on Unsolved. We're talking about Police Captain Michael O'Meara. In 1988, he left his home to run an errand. And then just a few hours later, his body was found in a field. He had died from a gunshot wound to the head. And this is an interesting episode because the police thought from the beginning, this might be a suicide. But his family, and let's face it, a lot of people believe that he was murdered, possibly by someone who held a grudge

• 3:57Speaker 00

  against him for, you know, what he did in law enforcement over the years.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely some controversy going on.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  And then on next Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about Dernell Stenson. This is a man who got called up to Major League Baseball in August of 2003. And then not long after making his debut, he was murdered in what appeared to be a carjack. There's some twists and turns. Make sure you check that episode out.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Good, good episode.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  I am.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  We're talking about Sherri Black. Sherri Black, a beloved mother and grandmother, was attacked and stabbed to death inside her bookstore in South Salt Lake City, Utah. In November 2010, authorities collected DNA and fingerprint evidence from the crime scene, but with no database match, her case went cold for years until investigators utilized genetic genealogy to identify her killer. And you know how much I love the genetic genealogy aspect of some of these cases? You know, it being used to solve some of these cold cases, some which have been cold for a very long time.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's proven to do some really good things here over the years.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  And it's just a fascinating type of sign.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Sherri Black was born in Provo, Utah. In October 14, 1946, she grew up in Orem. Sherri loved reading from a young age. She often stopped at the library to check out books on her way home from school.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  And like a good book, man.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know you went to the library a lot on your way home from school. You were a voracious reader, still are.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  That's where you developed your extensive vocabulary.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  I really enjoyed almost every picture book the library had.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  And I know you were very fond of Mad Magazine. That was one of your favorites. So you would obviously not spend money on it, but if you could get it from the library.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  I actually, at one point, tried to put that space between my front teeth to look like that guy.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Alfred E. Newman?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Is that?

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Sherri's parents owned a bowling alley, and she fell in love with the sport. Sherri bowled in competitive leagues across the country, according to her obituary. And I feel like if your family owned a bowling alley, you would probably get pretty good at it.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  I would think, right? Because you're going to be playing a lot.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  For free.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  For free. Unless something, I don't know. Some families would probably still make you pay.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  They might charge. Now, you would if you owned a bowling alley.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  You wouldn't let your kids do that for free, probably.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  I'd charge them double.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  I feel like if it's something you even had an interest in, you'd become very good at it because you just get so much lane time.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  That's it, right there.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  I've never been a big bowler. For me, bowling was always just a social thing, right? It was a place for everybody to get together, drink a few cold ones, and you know.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  It's more of a bull shitter.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, I think that's a great way to look at it.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Sherri met her future husband, Earl Black, in a junior high bowling league. Earl recalled that he thought Sherri was cute, and he had no chance with her. Later on, during a ski trip with friends, their relationship clicked.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  And we were, when I say we, my school people.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Your school people.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  My school people.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Your peeps?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  My peeps. We were in a junior high bowling league, too. You had to belong to the league, and they would bus you over to the bowling alley every Monday, and we would bowl.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  In our junior high league.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  How about that?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  We did not have anything like that, but we weren't fancy.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  That's what we had to do. Like it or not, you're going bowling.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  I just wonder how many people, you know, kind of got together in a similar fashion, right? You think someone's cute, or you think they're good looking, but you're thinking to yourself, oh, I got no chance with this person. And ultimately, you find out that, okay, they might like me, too. I think it's, it's natural.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  It is.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  For people to maybe think that someone's out of their league, but that's not always the case. A lot of us outkick our coverage, as I like to say.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  I've done that all my life.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Myself included. Earl and Sherri attended senior prom together in 1965 and got married on April 16 of that year. Earl was just 17, and Sherri was 18 when they married. Earl said about Sherri, she was the love of my life. She gave so much of herself through her time and talents, but the best gift she shared was her love, and she gave so freely.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  And he was really in love, wasn't he?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, it sure sounds like it. Their daughter Heidi was born in 1965, followed by their son Jason in 1971. Tragically, Jason died of an accidental gunshot wound in June 1989. Sherri spent a decade as a docent for the Hoagland Zoo. She took animals to local schools and taught lessons to young students. Earl and Sherri also had beloved dogs and cats at home.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Were you ever a docent?

• 9:40Speaker 00

  I, no, no. But, you know, I'm always amazed by people such as Sherri who give up their precious time to help others. I mean, that's heartwarming.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  It is.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  You know, she's not getting paid, right, to, I don't think, take animals to local schools. This seems more like a volunteer thing. To me, that's just amazing.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  We need more people like that.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  But most people don't want to do that. Gibbs, you think about time. It's limited. There's so much stuff going on nowadays. We're fast paced.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  So to take hours out of your day, however many times a week to do that, it takes a certain kind of person. It takes a special person, right? To be able to be that selfless.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you're taking it from somewhere, right? Either taking it from time with, from your relationship, or from your kids, or from just yourself, like your own time.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Sure, you could be doing whatever you want to do.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  But instead, you're helping other people. Sherri became a grandmother in the late 1980s and eventually had six grandchildren.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  That's your goal right there.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  To have six grandchildren?

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  To have some grandchildren, yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Three on each, three from each other. Not trying to put any pressure on them, but.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  No, no. And they, every time I talk about it, they're like, no. They just.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  They just blow me off completely. Sherry was extremely proud to be a grandmother. Her granddaughter, Alyssa Wardle, said, is quoted by the Sherry Black Foundation. She told me and showed me that I was enough. She cared about her relationships with all six of us on an individual level and knew us each well. Sherry's granddaughter, Sabrina Humphrey, recalled fond memories with her. She said, I vividly remember her being so present at every sleepover. She would welcome us in the kitchen as we would walk into her home. She would order Italian village pizza, make popcorn in the whirlipop, play Jenga,

• 11:54Speaker 00

  take a bubble bath with her plastic orange measuring cups and egg beaters, and watch a movie on the silky blanket. I would wear one of her oversized T-shirts to bed most of the time, and I would fall asleep between her and my grandpa to the sounds of cars rushing by on 700 East. The next day, I would wake up to the smell of fresh coffee and walk to the kitchen to see her and my grandpa sitting side by side on the patio, reading the newspaper. I would then do something along the lines of this routine. Crack open a Shasta from the workshop, lay in the hammock in the backyard, raid the raspberry bushes and grapes in her garden, and go play bookstore in her shop.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  That's the way to remember a grandma.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  Oh, those are fond memories.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  You think back to the whirlipop, right? Making, sliding that popcorn in the tinfoil over the heat and watching the kernels pop up into this dome. I mean, you can't buy those memories.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  No, you can't.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Right? You have to make them, but you have to have a loving grandparent or someone like that in your life to help you make those memories, and they obviously had them.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there are some grandparents that are active, do things with their grandkids when they have them.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Want to.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  They want to, and there's other grandparents that they'll watch the grandkids, but they're not really doing anything with the grandkids.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  They're just there just in case.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  Absolutely, and I think you know which one I'm gonna be.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Sherry and Earl owned B and W Collector Books and Billiards Supply, which was attached to their residence in South Salt Lake City. So when her granddaughter talked about playing bookstore in the shop, well, that's where she was playing.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  In a real bookstore.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  In an actual bookstore. Sherry was a book collector. Her collection was massive, and she always said she wanted to have her own library. She specialized in rare and valuable LDS books, but she also sold novels and children's books. Earl sold billiard tables at the shop. So, you know, I think, Gibbs, they had an amazing relationship, right? We talked about how Earl talks so glowingly about Sherry, and you said it, right? You could tell he was in love with her.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  From, I think, high school or junior high, right? From when they met. But how awesome that they, they got to work together every day, pretty much in the same shop. Now, she was doing the book side, he was doing the billiards side, but it sounds like they spent most of their time together.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Did you ever play a lot of billiards?

• 14:57Speaker 00

  I never played much billiards. I did, I played pool.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Did you play some pool?

• 15:02Speaker 00

  And still do from time to time. I wouldn't say I'm a great pool player. I'm decent.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  You're no Cincinnati Slim, huh?

• 15:09Speaker 00

  No, no. I can't do all the fancy trick shots and all of that.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  So you're saying you're no Dayton Husky?

• 15:17Speaker 00

  No. Is that your nickname that they give you at the pool hall?

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Growing up, hey, there's Dayton Husky.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Well, you know what really helps you get a nickname? Is when there's a tag on the back of your jeans.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  With the word on it. On the afternoon of November 30th, 2010, Earl came home from work and found Sherry's body inside the store. When he first arrived, he saw Sherry's car parked in her usual spot. He figured she was home, so he walked into the store and called out her name, but she didn't respond. Earl walked towards the back room. The door was shut, and he noticed blood on the door. When he opened the door, he found Sherry dead with a pair of scissors sticking out of her stomach. Earl was in complete shock. He recalled that it was all he could do to call 911.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  This was the love of his life.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about that. You know, everything that we read in the research talked about how in love he was with Sherry. Officers saw that Sherry had been beaten and stabbed to death. There was also evidence of a great struggle. One of her boots had come off, and there was blood on the books and bookshelves surrounding her body. Investigators also found a broken bottle in shards of glass.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  I mean, this is the vision that he has to have of his wife.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  For the rest of his life, right? You're not, you're probably not ever getting out of or getting out from under that. Now, you may not think of it every day as time goes on, but then again, you might. It might be just a vision that haunts you forever.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Pretty traumatizing.

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• 19:07Speaker 00

  Since it was clear there had been a fight, investigators suspected they might find the killer's blood at the crime scene. The killer's blood was found on Sherry's sock, on the doorway to the back room, on the exit door, and on an Armani exchange belt left at the scene. Police also found a partial fingerprint and palm print. So you would think, Gibbs, in 2010, this is pretty good evidence.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you have to feel fairly good about what you were able to collect.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Because obviously, DNA is well-known at this point. It's come a long way, not to the point that it has today, but in 2010, they could do a lot with DNA. But the motive was unclear. There was no money missing from the register. Sherry also had on a diamond necklace, diamond earrings, and rings on her finger. Nothing from the shop appeared to be missing. So, I mean, what does that tell you?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I don't think it's a robbery gone wrong.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  Well, it certainly doesn't appear to be, because if it was, you would expect money to be taken from the till. Not that hard, right? After you've killed someone to grab earrings, necklaces, rings, things like that, stuff you know you'll be able to get money for.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  If that was the intent. So if that wasn't, then what was it? Right? That's a question that investigators would have to try to figure out. Sherry's autopsy showed she was struck 15 times around the face, head, and neck. She suffered injuries to her fingers, believed to be defensive wounds. Her cause of death was a slash to the left side of the neck, presumably from the scissors. And we, and there's no doubt, this was a very gruesome murder. We mentioned it, right? Earl found his wife, Sherry, with a pair of scissors sticking out of her stomach.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  And now it's thought that the scissors were probably used to slash her neck, which was the killing blow.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  I would just never would have thought scissors were that sharp to do something like that.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I guess you don't think of them being sharp like a, like a sharp knife, but the amount of force, right? The quickness of the slash coupled with the force. A metal blade is gonna do some damage.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  And obviously, scissors, the points are usually pretty sharp.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  But it also sounds like whoever did this, maybe didn't bring the scissors. Maybe the scissors were there in the store. So I'm just wondering if maybe the intention wasn't initially to kill somebody, but some argument happened and it went south.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I 100% agree with what you're saying. I mean, let's think about it logically, right? Most people who set about trying to kill somebody, they're probably not going to bring scissors with them. It's not going to be the first thing that someone thinks about as a murder weapon.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  But most businesses, most houses for that matter, have a pair of scissors probably lying around somewhere. Investigators did question Earl, which he expected. Earl had a strong alibi. He said he left at 9:00 AM and came back around 1:00 PM. When he found his wife's body, police found a camera in the area that proved he left and returned when he said he did. And I think, you know, if you're the husband, you come home and find your wife dead, murdered, you do have to expect that you are going to be questioned by police. They have to rule you out.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Sure they do.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  But that does seem like a pretty strong alibi.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  At least he was expecting it. I think most people would, like you said, would assume that they're going to have to answer some questions around what happened to their spouse or partner.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Word quickly spread about the murder and Sherri's connection to the Miller family. Elevated interest in the story. Sherri's daughter Heidi is married to former Utah Jazz executive Greg Miller. Greg Miller is the son of the late Larry Miller, who built a car dealership empire in the eighties. He was instrumental in keeping the Utah Jazz team in state. Greg inherited the Utah Jazz and took over his father's business empire. So yeah, right? That type of connection is going to generate a lot of interest in a story like this.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah. I mean, this is a popular family in Utah, a wealthy family.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  And the Utah Jazz are very popular in Utah, have been for a long time. I remember when I was younger, you know, the Jazz, when they had John Stockton, Karl Malone, they had some really good teams. They had a rabid fan base.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  In Utah. They haven't been as good lately, so I don't know what the fan base is like. But I still think they're pretty much diehards. I think they stick with the, the team. Most people do through good times and bad.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Did you say John Stockton played there?

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Is that the Stockton that played in Dayton? Am I thinking of a different guy?

• 24:57Speaker 00

  I don't know who you're thinking of, but he didn't play in Dayton.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  I never, you know, I don't always know who you're thinking of. You don't always know who you're thinking of. No, he played at Gonzaga and then he ended up playing for the Utah Jazz. He's one of the best point guards of all time.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Really?

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  You probably have one of your players named after him. That NBA 2K or whatever it's called game you play.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  No.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  No?

• 25:21Speaker 00

  No, my players are always named after me.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Oh, because you're the best.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  I'm the player. Soon authorities identified a potential suspect. Investigators learned that a regular customer of Sherri's was the last person to be in the bookstore, presumably after Sherri was murdered. Okay, I think if you're the authorities, yeah, you are really going to want to talk to this person.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  First of all, it's a regular customer. But if it's true that the customer was there after Sherri was murdered, then they likely could be the killer. If not, they would have a lot of explaining to do.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You went into the store, left the store and you didn't think you wanted to call anybody?

• 26:09Speaker 00

  The customer agreed to meet with investigators. For an interview, they collected his DNA, cell phone logs, a written statement, and took photos of his hands and torso. The customer explained that he scheduled an appointment with Sherri. He was going to be late because of traffic and called her to let her know at 10:15 AM. He didn't see her when he entered the bookstore. He tried to call again and decided he'd wait in the store. He sat there for about 45 minutes before he left. There was nothing to indicate he heard or witnessed anything or had any idea. Sherri was presumably dead in the back room. And as we always do, right?

• 26:53Speaker 00

  We like to measure things on the plausibility meter. Is it plausible that this guy could have gone into the store? Nobody's in there. He waits around for a while and he leaves.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's possible.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  I mean, this is not Walmart.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  It's probably Sherri in there by herself most of the time. It's a small store, I'm assuming.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  I'm just thinking though, if it was me and I had an appointment and I went in there and the front door was unlocked and after so much time has passed and I'm yelling out the person's name, I probably would go ahead and walk throughout the whole store, even the back. Like maybe they don't hear me.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  So you would go into an area which you're not supposed to go as a customer?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  See, I wouldn't.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Really?

• 27:47Speaker 00

  No, because I'm not supposed to do that. So I would wait for a while. I don't even think I'd wait 45 minutes. I would wait for a while, but I would assume maybe something came up and, you know, maybe she went to go get lunch or I don't know. But I don't think I would walk into the back room into an area that was, let's say, off limits to customers.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  I think I would, I'd be like.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I don't doubt that you would.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Are you back here? Hey, you're back here.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  So, I mean, I do think it's, it's plausible, but I think if you're law enforcement, you got to be skeptical about this.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Right? Because although it could happen, you got to be wondering, did it really happen that way? On December 7th, 2010, the results from the blood and fingerprint testing came back. The blood contained a male DNA profile. The DNA was run through CODIS, but there was no match. The prints also came back with no match. And we talked about Gibbs, that they had pretty good evidence, right? A number of, uh, blood spots they were able to collect, partial fingerprints, palm prints. But this is the problem that we see with DNA and even fingerprints for that matter.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  It's great that you have them. But if somebody's DNA or fingerprints are not in some database, it just really doesn't do you that much good.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  No. All you can do is sit back and hope one day they get into that database.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  The South Salt Lake Police invited homicide investigators from outside agencies to talk about the case, to hear suggestions. Investigators continued interviewing family and friends and following up with witnesses, but there was still no suspect. On December 19th, 2010, Detective Dwayne Ruth received a call from the Salt Lake Police Department, which had a similar homicide that occurred 18 days after Sherri Black's murder. An older female had been viciously attacked in a bathroom in Fairmont Park. Salt Lake PD identified a man named Paul Vera. Detective Ruth was convinced Vera was the killer,

• 30:09Speaker 00

  but he was not a match to the DNA from the Sherri Black crime scene.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Oh, man, you got a little excited, thought maybe we got the guy. Similar MO, but then no match in the DNA.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I get it, right? There's a murder just 18 days after this one. Pretty logical to think this could also be our killer. The same person could have, you know, committed both murders. On December 30th, 2010, the police released photos of the unique Armani exchange belt, believed to have been left behind by the killer. In March 2011, family and friends offered a $50,000 reward for information, which investigators hoped would generate new leads. That's a healthy reward.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's a really good amount. I mean, I think, you know, maybe they had some help from the son-in-law?

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Well, they, they've, they've got some wealthy people.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Connected to this case. Lieutenant Dwayne Ruth revealed publicly for the first time that the killer's blood was found at the crime scene and that DNA testing confirmed the killer was male. On November 28th, 2011, Heidi and Earl Black held a press conference at the bookstore to try to keep Sherri's case in the media. And we talk about it quite a bit, but it's always important. It comes up in a lot of unsolved cases, but you want to keep your loved one's case in front of people.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Keep it relevant.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  And it can sometimes be hard because there are new cases sadly occurring all the time.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  And we know how the media is, right? They, they cover something for a while, but then there's something else that they, you know, gravitate towards.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Move on to the next big story.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  So sadly Sherri's case went cold and didn't receive much news coverage in the years that passed. According to Heidi, she initially received weekly updates from investigators. Those eventually became monthly meetings.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  And they became fewer and fewer until finally she wasn't receiving any calls at all. She felt frustrated by the lack of progress.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  We've heard this before too, right? Where families say, man, they were giving us updates all the time and then it just stopped.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Well, just like the media, right? The police have other cases to work on as well. So I think part of that is, you know, just comes naturally. But the thing that you always see is frustration, right? On the part of the family, they want their case solved. So until it is, they are going to be frustrated.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  And rightfully so. I get why.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  And I think from the police side, it is probably disappointing every time you call them to say, no new leads.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, what if they have nothing?

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  What do they, what can they really tell you? On November 30th, 2017, authorities released the first image of the suspect, which was created by Parabon Nano Labs through a process called phenotyping.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Oh, phenotyping. You love this stuff.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  I do. I do. Using DNA from blood found at the scene, Parabon created an image of the suspect at age 25, 38, and 52 years old. And it's amazing that using DNA alone, they can create these images. And they've been doing it for a while now. Heidi and Greg Miller also announced a $250,000 reward for information leading to an arrest to mark seven years since Sherry was murdered.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Good for them because that could make the difference, you know, with this, with these images out there, plus this money that might just open some doors.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Earl Black was also present when the image was unveiled and said, everybody that knew her loved her. She didn't hurt people. She didn't do anything to deserve it. We've got to get this guy before he does it again. In March 2018, the case was transferred to the Unified Police Department of Greater Salt Lake. Detective Ben Pender was assigned as lead investigator. Detective Pender came across revolutionary technology known as forensic genetic genealogy. A private company provided him a list of 400 to 600 names of potential relatives of the suspect. And he basically spent the next two years traveling

• 34:56Speaker 00

  around the country, collecting DNA swabs from potential relatives. A genealogist put together a list of individuals to contact to see if they would be willing to give information about their family history and submit their DNA. Detective Pender would then knock on their door and tell them what he was doing. He was surprised that about 98% of people were willing to help.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  I'm surprised by that, too. That's a much higher number than I would have thought.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Well, it's a high number just from the fact that it's hard to get 98% of people to go along with anything, right? So just by that, 98% seems high. Also, I would think there's quite a few people, even though they don't think they have anybody in their family involved, they don't want to take the chance to find out that somebody in their family's a killer.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  That's a good point, right?

• 35:54Speaker 00

  And, and might decline just on that basis alone.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  In 2020, the genealogist found a match for someone believed to be closely related to the perpetrator. The family was located in Sacramento, California. So Gibbs, we're 10 years on, right? They put a lot of work into it. It was fairly cold there for a while. But obviously at this point in time, it's heating up, you know, with the Parabon Nano Labs image. And the work they were doing with the forensic genetic genealogy, they're really getting somewhere now.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Making some headway.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  On September 20th, 2010, Detective Pender interviewed the family in Sacramento. As they were talking, he asked the adult son if he had an intimate relationship in high school. The man said he did, and that he had a child from that relationship. He received paperwork to sign off custody. That paperwork was from Utah. He had a photo of his child with the name Antonio written on the back. And I just wonder what this detective was thinking, right? When he got this information that was leading him back to Utah, I mean, this has to be kind of a, you know, hair standing up on the back of your neck moment.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Got to be kind of excited. Like, we might have our person.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  The next day, Pender called the genealogist and they began trying to identify the child named Antonio. Pender learned his name was actually Adam Antonio Spencer Derboro. Adam had an extensive juvenile record involving violence. As an adult, he had only been charged with shoplifting. Adam would have been 19 when Sherry was killed. But in 2020, he was 29 years old and living in Orem.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Well, he's living where Sherry grew up at.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Investigators traveled to Orem and surveilled Adam's residence for several days to learn his routine. On October 7th, 2020, an investigator spotted a fast food bag in Adam's vehicle and then saw Adam dispose of it in his outdoor trash can. Investigator seized the trash to test for DNA.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know you love this stuff, too.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  I do, because I can imagine myself, it's, it's me and you, right?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  We're in a windowless van and we're, we're watching people and we're seeing them discard trash. And then we hop out like in a movie at night and we get it out of the trash.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Wait, you just said we're in a, we're in a windowless van?

• 38:45Speaker 00

  We are. We don't want people to see us.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  How are we seeing them? Windowless.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. There's special technology for that. Think about that. It's two-way glass. Okay, there's a window, but it's two-way.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  It's two-way. No, you caught me there. But it is fascinating, right? That now, I get it. The perception of a glamorous stakeout, like in a movie versus what a stakeout is really like, I'm sure, are way different.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Because you got, let's say, a couple of people sitting in a car for hours, days, they stink. You're eating fast food, the whole van or car stinks of BO and grease. I don't know.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  This is not going to be a whole lot of fun.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  No, it's not going to be fun. But in the movies, they make it seem so glam.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know glamorous, but they, exciting?

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Exciting is maybe, yeah, glamorous is probably not the right adjective. The very next day, Adam's DNA came back as a match to the crime scene DNA.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Oh, man. You got to feel good at that point.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Well, you feel good that all the hard work, right, that you put into it has finally paid off. And you're going to be able to give the family some answers that they've been wanting for 10 years.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing. You're also, I'm thinking as a police officer, you're, you're like, I can't wait to hear the reason why he did what he did.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say there's a part of that, that, okay, now we're going to get to question this guy.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  And we got to break him first, but we got to get him to tell us, why did you do what you did? On October 10th, 2020, authorities arrested Adam Derboro. As he was being driven to the station, Adam told Detective Ben Pender, I know what you want to talk about. And if it's what I think you want to talk to me about, then I would want an attorney present. I think if you're law enforcement, right? And you hear this guy say that I know what you want to talk to me about. And if it's what I think, then I definitely want an attorney. It's not an admission of guilt, but you have to think that, yeah, this guy knows

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  what he did. And he knows what I want to ask him about, and he wants an attorney there.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  I'd be like, what do you think we want to ask you about?

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Investigators already had a warrant for Adam's prints, DNA, and photograph. Although Adam had requested an attorney, Detective Pender took a chance and put Adam in an interview room. He told him he wasn't there to ask questions because he had asked for an attorney, but he wanted to tell him about Sherri Black. He said that Sherri was a mother and grandmother. Adam said, when you guys stopped me today, I knew. I mean, I haven't done anything else in my life. This family's been, I've seen them, they asked for answers. And then they

• 41:56Speaker 00

  sat in silence for a couple of minutes before Adam continued talking. He said, I probably shouldn't say this without a lawyer, but honestly, they do need to know. It's been a long 10 years. I went into that store and I had no intention at all to do anything. There's no one else in the store and it had been a rough week. I remember that. My mom was super stressed out. She was afraid that I was just going to be another number in the system. It just happened. She was there and I just, I was so angry, I just lashed out. So I entered the store, asked if she had a particular book series in stock. She

• 42:39Speaker 00

  didn't, but I decided to look around anyway. I was just silently fuming. She walked over and asked if everything was fine. I told her it was fine. She smiled and turned away. There was just a pair of scissors nearby and I picked them up and I hit her. I just hit her in the back of the head. At one point, I do remember it was by her in front of the cashier station. There was this bottle and I picked it up and hit her over the back of the head with it. I ran out of that store. I'm surprised nobody saw me. I didn't realize what I had done until I was in the bathroom, just scrubbing.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  I think the detective at this point has to be like, this is awesome. He is telling us everything we need to know.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Well, and it's also, you know, brilliant on the detective's part, right? Adam has asked for an attorney. So the detective can't really ask him any questions about the murder, but he doesn't. He just puts him in the interrogation room and he starts talking about Sherri.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  He's not asking any questions. He's just telling this guy who Sherri was, right? She was a mother. She was a grandmother. This guy offers up the information. And so, you know, he doesn't violate his rights in any way.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  I feel like this guy just wanted to get this off his chest.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it seems that way, right? He said, oh, this family's been waiting for 10 years. They deserve to know.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  But how sad is it? The way that he talks about it, it's like, she was trying to befriend him, be nice to him.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Because she was nice to everybody.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  We talked about it. Nobody disliked this woman. She donated her time. She was an amazing parent, grandparent. She was friendly to everybody. She was friendly to him in the store. And he admits it, right? He was just fuming mad, but not at her. She just happened to be there.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  While he was in this rage and he took it out on her. Detective Pender asked Adam if something set him off. Adam replied, I think it was her being kind. Honestly, I saw myself as a terrible, terrible person.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  You were a terrible, terrible person for what you did.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I think he was thinking that he was a terrible person even before he did this.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Like, he, in his mind, he's saying, I'm a terrible person. This woman is amazing. She's kind. And I'm going to take out my rage on her. He said he didn't know why exactly he chose to kill Sherri. He said, I thought that I was this horrible person growing up. I was young, stupid, and I didn't control myself. It wasn't personal. It wasn't planned. It was spontaneous. I wish I could take it back. And I don't believe a lot of killers when they talk, but I'll be honest with you, Gibbs, I kind of believe this guy.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I think he would like to take it back.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  I don't think it was planned. I think it was spontaneous. And yeah, I do think he wished that he could take it back. But that's the problem, right? You can't take this kind of stuff back.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  No, once it's done, it's done.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  After the arrest, KUTV reported that Adam DeBurro looks nothing like the 2017 image generated by Parabon Nano Labs. The description on the sketch stated that the suspect's ancestry is African American. According to DeBurro's booking information, he is Asian.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Well, that surprises me that they got that wrong.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, because we talked about it, right? They, they are, or have been, right? Quite a bit, or at least close. In this case, I don't, they weren't even close, right? They don't even have the correct ancestry, ethnicity. They're, they're way off. Forensic scientist Danny Helwig explained that phenotyping isn't meant to paint a full detailed picture of a person. It's used to determine eye color, hair, and ancestry. He said that if a company tries to fill in gaps, it's basically just a good guess. He also said that phenotyping can be a good investigative tool, but it has to be used with other techniques and

• 47:17Speaker 00

  methods. It's one piece of the puzzle and it's a legitimate piece, but you can't focus on that piece. There has to be more.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Well, it's just another tool in your toolbox, right?

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yes. And I don't even know how much they use phenotyping anymore. We used to hear about it a lot, but don't hear about it as much. I think the genetic genealogy route has proven to be much more effective. On October 26, prosecutors filed aggravated murder charges against Adam DeBurro for the first time. Salt Lake County DA Sim Gill revealed that Sherri had injuries of a sexual nature.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Okay, that changes this up a little bit, right?

• 48:00Speaker 00

  Yes. Because he didn't say anything about that in his talk with the detective. And up to this point, that had not been released. So nobody knew about it. Gill said the suspect stabbed Sherri to death, then disfigured her body, which led to stronger charges. And if you go back, Adam also didn't tell the detective about that, right? The disfigure of the body. He just said he kind of stabbed her in the back of the head with the scissors, but we know her neck was slashed. The scissors were sticking out of her stomach.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. This is a guy that said he had a bad day. I had a bad day. I took it out on someone that was being overly nice, but he did more than that.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, he left some things out for sure. Law enforcement discussed how the arrest was finally made after a breakthrough in how investigators use DNA evidence. And those procedures could solve other cold cases. And we know that they have, right? Since then. As mentioned, investigators had the suspect's fingerprints, palm prints, and DNA, but there was no match in the system. And why is that? I think, Gibbs, it's because this guy had a juvenile record, but he didn't really have much of a record as an adult. So I don't think he had done anything that would force his DNA or fingerprints or anything into a, a law enforcement database.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was kind of, he was clear on that end.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. He had one small charge, I think, as an adult, but I don't remember.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Stop that thing or something like that.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was something that I don't think would, you know, maybe require all of that. Jack Carruth, chief of the South Salt Lake PD, said, how else can we use that DNA to attach it to our suspect? That became the focus of the investigation. According to DA Sim Gill, detectives went through the family tree, eliminating people and narrowed in on one suspect, but they still had to obtain the suspect's DNA to confirm the match. Chief Carruth said, all the methods that we use in this investigation are now being deployed or utilized in other cold case investigations, not only with our department,

• 50:24Speaker 00

  but with several other departments. And I would add on that it's being used all over right now.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  Several months later, on February 23, 2022, Adam DeBurro was sentenced to life without parole. And I think that's a very fair sentence.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's very appropriate. Brutal murder. What he did to that lady, Sherri, he should definitely spend the rest of his life in prison.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think he, he forfeited the rest of his life. You know, he's going to live, right? They're not going to take his life, but he doesn't deserve to be free.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  No, he, he was lucky to get the 10 years he did have.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Yes. Detective Ben Pender theorized that it was Sherri's kindness to Adam that caused him to snap. But he said, without a full explanation from Adam, we may never fully understand what caused him to brutally attack and murder a woman who was known for her loving nature. And I'm kind of surprised, Gibbs, that the plea

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Didn't include him having to really give more details. Cause let's face it, there was quite a bit that he left out.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Sure was.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  In his initial talk with Detective Pender. But apparently it didn't, because we don't know why he did everything he did. The Sherri Black Foundation was created in 2017 by Heidi and Greg Miller. As a way to share the knowledge that they gained after losing Sherri. According to the foundation's website, Heidi and Greg found themselves using all available resources to help solve the crime, along with law enforcement. This took them on a journey of identifying existing skilled professionals, investigative tools, and finding gaps in our justice system that would lead them on a journey of advocacy.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Starting the foundation was also a way for them to find light in the darkest of moments. By serving others, it continues to help them process their overwhelming grief and give hope to not only themselves, but to other families facing similar circumstances. In their search for answers, they met several experts and realized that their advanced skills, along with those of others like them, could benefit the law enforcement community. This resulted in the development of the training courses that the foundation continues to host across the country. The Millers felt the need to bridge the gap between the investigative skills of specialists

• 53:05Speaker 00

  and those of local law enforcement agencies that may not have the staff or budget to gain the knowledge needed to solve some violent crime. If you'd like to learn more about the Sherri Black Foundation's mission and work, you can visit their website at sherriblackfoundation.org. As we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, I think we often see people in processing their grief, figure out a way to do something to help others. Right? I think that's what Heidi and Greg did here with starting this Sherri Black Foundation. I also, I think there is a need, right?

• 53:47Speaker 00

  To bridge this gap, especially with smaller agencies, right? Who don't have like the specialists of their own.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, the resources.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  They don't have the resources that a big city agency would have.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  So being able to find these specialists or put them together to help solve their crimes, I mean, that's a win-win.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I wish there was more foundations like that, because that makes sense, right? There's obviously the Millers had the resources because they had the money.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  Well, that helps.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Right?

• 54:24Speaker 00

  There's no doubt about that.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  But there's like, we know there's families that just won't have those resources, the money, but if they have a foundation that can assist, it makes a big difference, I would think.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  But this is a tough case. You know, you have a woman in Sherri who by all accounts was just universally loved.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 00

  She was nice to everybody. She was an amazing person. We talked about how she gave up her free time to volunteer, to help others. It's the way she was killed and the reason why she was killed that really sticks out to me in this case, right? This wasn't a person who had a personal grudge against her. This wasn't a person who had been stalking her. He just happened to come into the store. He was in a terrible mood, right? He said in his own words, he was fuming.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  This woman was nice to him and I think it set him off.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  I mean, to be murdered because you were too nice.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  It's hard to imagine, right?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  It is.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  But then also, we don't have all the details, but there was an element of sexual assault.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  They hinted at it. They haven't really come out and given the full details. But also, you know, he didn't just kill her.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  He used these scissors on her in a way that he didn't need to in order to kill her.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  Right? There's, there's mention of disfigurement. We know the scissors were found sticking out of her stomach. There were elements of rage here, right? He was mad to start off with, technically not mad at her, I don't think.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  No, I think he went into the store already mad.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  And he just took whatever was going on in his life.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  What, the way he was feeling about himself, he took it out on her. But it's a sad case, no doubt about it. That's it for our episode on Sherri Black. We got a voicemail, you want to check that out?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Let's hear it.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Brett from Adelaide, South Australia. I'm just calling because I did send you an email late July this year, wondering when you're going to be covering the sole case of Crystal Perry, which took place in the state of Maine in 1994. I understand that you've got a long list of cases waiting to be covered on TCAP, but I think this one is more than worthy of being covered on your podcast. I did see a forensic files episode on this case and I've seen interviews, various interviews with the victim's daughter, Sarah, and I admire her tenacity and her resilience. So I think this is might be a case worth considering. Anyway, I love what you guys do on the podcast. Been a long time fan.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  I hope you guys keep up the good work, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  All right. Thank you very much for the voicemail. Yeah, he's correct, Gibbs. I mean, there's a, we have a long list.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  We do.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Right? Of cases to do. And sometimes it's very hard to pick.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  It is. And then sometimes when we do pick, sometimes there's just not a lot of information out there.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  That's true. We start down the path sometimes and it turns out that what we thought was an interesting case, while it might be, still be interesting, it's just not enough to make a full episode out of it, but we'll definitely check this one out.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Certainly will.

• 57:52Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  And Gibby.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.