Roxanne Houston

In 2014, 33-year-old Roxanne Houston was trying to build a new life in the rugged outskirts of Taos, New Mexico. Known for her compassion and intelligence, Roxanne had become part of the local community while hoping to eventually return to Colorado and reunite with her children. On June 13th, she was spotted walking down a dirt road with her backpack and told a neighbor she would be back. She was never seen alive again. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Roxanne Houston. Months later, hikers discovered human remains in a remote area west of Taos, and investigators confirmed they belonged to Roxanne. She had been shot in the head. As detectives examined the people closest to her, they uncovered complicated relationships, conflicting accounts, unusual behavior, and disturbing evidence that would lead the investigation in an unexpected direction. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 539 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  That's pretty good.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  It is really good.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Can you be better than that? That might be the tippy top. I don't know.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  It's kind of the tippy top.

• 1:36Speaker 00

  All right, man, let's dive right in. You know, on these Thursday episodes, we don't mess around.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  We just get down.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, we are. We're talking about Roxanne Houston. Months after relocating from Colorado to New Mexico, Roxanne disappeared while walking away from home on foot. Her body was later found in a shallow grave in a remote area. So we've got a lot to get into. Roxanne Marie Glazer Houston was born on March 17, 1981. She was only 33 years old at the time of her death. Roxanne had four children, but none of them lived with her. Her two oldest children lived with their fathers. Her youngest two children were twins and lived with her parents in Colorado Springs.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  In 2013, Roxanne and her boyfriend left Colorado and arrived in Carson, New Mexico. They camped for, you know, some time and eventually moved into a residence in the Taos area. You familiar with Taos, New Mexico?

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I am not.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  I'm not. I've been to Albuquerque.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Same here.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  That's the only place I've been to in New Mexico.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  When I was there, and this was when I was young, it seemed really nice. You could stand in the city, which was blazing hot. Look up in the mountains and see the snow.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  You know, I know Albuquerque has been hit pretty hard, as a lot of places here have in the United States with drugs. But I don't know. It's a gorgeous area.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  It used to be a really colorful city, too. I remember all the homes and stuff were painted very bright colors when I was there. So.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  I did not remember that, but again, I was young.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  But also, we have talked about our love of Colorado and how gorgeous that place is.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Colorado as well.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  You're moving from Colorado to New Mexico. According to the Taos News, they lived in a half-buried school bus with a small earth-shaped, earth-ship-type living room addition in the Two Peaks area west of the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  I mean, a half-buried bus.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  So what are we talking about? Like, you excavate to a certain depth?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  And then you got to bring in a crane and drop this bus in?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Or? I'm guessing that's what they had to do, you know? I mean, I get it. It helped keep that lower, you know, being that into the ground like that, it's going to keep you cooler in that heat out there. But I'm just trying to picture this. It'd be like, you know, getting one of those storage containers that a lot of people like now, right?

• 4:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  And burying, putting those into the ground and stacking them and configure them however you want. Similar to that.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  But obviously, a school bus is not that big. So they needed this, what they referred to as a earth-ship. I don't even know what that is.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  It'd be like some round saucer looking like

• 4:57Speaker 01

  connection to the bus.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, some kind of living room addition. That's what they called it. Roxanne lived with her boyfriend Johnny Hanson, her ex-boyfriend Vern McCune, who was the father of two of her children, and a few other housemates. So that's a lot of people in a bus. And.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  It is.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  A living room addition.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  But you also have your ex-boyfriend and your current boyfriend living there with you.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Very strange situation, I think, to most people.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me of back in the day, you know, those old compounds, you know, where everybody just coexisted together.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Almost like a commune-type place?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Peace and love and harmony and all that?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe some people can make it work. I can, I could see where, there's quite a few challenges that would arise from a situation like that.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  According to the Taos News, Vernon McCune raised Roxanne as a child, and they had a sexual relationship when she became an adult.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  So weird.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Very strange.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Right? Like, I'm raising you, and now that you're six, 18, seven, I don't know, 18.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Whatever.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Whatever the legal age there was. You know, now you're going to be my girlfriend slash soon-to-be-wife.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  Very, very strange.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Right? Now, I do feel like it might be some type of commune or whatever.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Well, but I mean, to me, that's like, that seems like a grooming situation.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Sure does.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Right? Roxanne's estranged ex-husband George Houston, the father of one of her children, said that she had bipolar disorder and had been off her medication for some time. She frequently moved between relationships. And we've talked about bipolar disorder, you know, a lot.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Over the years. And I know I've told this story before, but you know, I did work with a guy who had bipolar disorder. He was very open about it.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  And he was also open as to when he was taking or not taking his medication.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  And you could tell. You could definitely tell because he acted very differently when he wasn't on his medication.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worked with a guy also that was bipolar, and you, exactly how you describe it, you definitely knew when and when, when and when they were not taking it. And it ended badly for him. He's the one that committed murder.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Of his girlfriend. So he blamed, he blamed, blamed it on, that he did not take his medication, or his attorneys blamed it on the fact he didn't take his medication.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get that. But he was convicted?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  He was. Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  But whose fault is it whether you take your medication or not?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  It's up to him to take his medication.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  I guess that, yeah. That's a tough argument to make.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  The Taos News reported that after Roxanne and George separated, she filed for a restraining order against him due to alleged violence. Roxanne was embraced by the Taos community during her short time there. She was known for being a compassionate person. She was a caretaker for her neighbor and participated in distributing food to residents.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Pretty hands-on, it sounds like.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, those are great things.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  It is.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  To help people out in the community, to help the less fortunate. Roxanne's children weighed heavily on her, and friends said she spoke often about being a mother again. And, you know, we talked about it, right? Her kids didn't live with her. That's tough. It's got to be tough for any mother.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I would think it'd be really, really hard not to have your kids around.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, especially for, you know, a mother who really loves her kids. And Roxanne was also described as highly educated with an organized, regimented demeanor.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Really?

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Something that no one would ever say about me.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  I've never claimed I was organized. I'm certainly not regimented.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  It's why I've always said, I think I would really struggle or would have struggled when I was younger in, in any type of military, because I just don't do well in very structured regimented situations.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I think the first two weeks of basics would have been pretty rough on you.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, physically and mentally.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  Probably. You know, I'm more of a, you know, fly by the seat of my pants type of person.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  With my scheduling for sure. Neighbor Sunshine Harper told the Taos News that Roxanne also had an innocence about her. She said, I wouldn't say naive because she was highly intelligent. She was a smart woman, but she had no inkling what evil is out there.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  I mean, there's some people that can be extremely intelligent, but not really had the street smarts or the street savvy of what's really going on.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Well, that plus, we've talked about it in the past where, you know, I do think there are a lot of people who want to see the good in everyone, which is an admirable, you know, trait.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  But there is evil, right? There are evil people. There are people out there who are looking to do others harm. And if you don't at least have that in the back of your mind, shouldn't dominate your thinking, but just the fact that, that it could happen and be on the lookout for certain things, certain signs.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  And that's why, you know, we talk about me and Mensa, but that's why I started that new Mensa program, you know, Mensa, street smart.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  I thought you were gonna call, call it Mensa scared straight.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  We thought about it.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Changed it then.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, we thought we better just keep it more level set like that.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  I like that.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Numbers are shooting through the roofs right now.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  All roofs or just one roof?

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Through the roofs, plural?

• 11:28Speaker 00

  That cracked you up, didn't it?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. You're really doing good if you got multiple roofs.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Being shot through.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Shooting through.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Roxanne went missing on June 13th, 2014. Sunshine Harper was the last person to see her. She spotted Roxanne while driving down a dirt road. Roxanne was walking towards town and told Sunshine she'd be back. You know, Sunshine Harper would be an amazing name for a meteorologist.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  It really would be, wouldn't it?

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Sunshine, how's the weather looking this weekend?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  Terrible, rainy.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Rainy.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Roxanne was reported missing on July 24th by her boyfriend Johnny Hanson. So, I mean, right off the bat, that's well over a month after she was last seen.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  That's a red flag.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  It's a huge red flag.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  It's kind of jumping out. Now, he told police that Roxanne left without notice, which seemed unusual because she was employed as a caretaker and left behind her beloved dog. She also didn't have a vehicle. So it was presumed she left on foot. Johnny thought she would return, but it had been weeks since he'd heard from her. And I think if you're police, right, you're going to take this report, start working on it. Obviously Johnny, you know, has to be a person to be eliminated. He's the, the current boyfriend.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  So that's going to exist regardless, but then, you know, he doesn't report her missing for such a long time. You know, seems to me that that's going to be in their minds as well.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I mean, it's suspicious. I mean, unless you can have, have a good answer for it, like, you know, uh, she would take off now and then like this and just do her own thing, but.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  She said she was going here for a month.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And can you back that up somehow?

• 13:30Speaker 00

  State police contacted Roxanne's friends, but no one knew her whereabouts. On Christmas Day, 2014, hikers found a femur in the Two Peaks area west of Taos. Investigators then exhumed nearly an entire human body. Again, you know, hiking, right? Anytime you are somewhere off the beaten path.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Hiking, fishing, hunting. These are the, the individuals oftentimes who stumble upon dead bodies.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Because let's face it, most people, most killers, they don't dump a body on the corner of Fifth and Main. Right? It just, that doesn't happen very often. Now, maybe the mob did. They were trying to send a message or, or whatever. But most killers, they want to hide the body. So they put it somewhere, you know, remote. And these are the types of individuals who are more likely to stumble upon.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Which would be freaky.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Oh, I can't even imagine. You and I have been researching true crime for a very long time.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  But I still can't realistically imagine what it would be like and what it would do to you mentally to discover a dead body when you're just out on, let's say, a nature walk or, you know, something like that. On January 19th, 2015, those remains were identified as Roxanne Houston. She was publicly identified on January 29th. Her cause of death was still being investigated, but a substantial head injury was deemed the likely cause. It was later confirmed that she was shot in the head.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  So, you know, early on, they see this head injury. I don't know if they were thinking blunt force trauma. Eventually they figured out it was definitely a gunshot. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now, I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince, but what I continually go for is their activewear Flow Net line. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere,

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• 16:45Speaker 00

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. In early February, investigators announced that they had located and interviewed two persons of interest and that they also seized a vehicle. Investigators were still searching for a third person of interest who was the former owner of that vehicle. It had been sold since Roxanne's disappearance.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  They're really focused in on getting all this, you know, put together, you know, getting, find out who owned this vehicle, where is that person at? Uh, I'm assuming so they can talk to that person to figure out if they were connected or not.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Well, but, you know, let's also look at the timeline. It's pretty quick.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  It is.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Right? To develop not one, not two, three persons of interest. I think, you know, where my mind goes is this vehicle, right? So they, for whatever reason, they believe this vehicle is involved in, in something. And then you find out that the vehicle was sold right after whatever happened.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  The crime that you believe happened. When you talk about red flags, you know, that's the, the type of stuff you look for.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you're wondering, okay, why did they sell that vehicle so quickly? After what happened? Maybe it's because whatever happened, she was inside that vehicle.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Or that vehicle was used to transport.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  Or if a car, you know, is taken and gets crushed.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Like in the movie.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Obviously, uh, that would be a, a big red flag as well.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  On February 12th, 2015, authorities charged 50 year old Ivan Vennings Cales with first degree murder and issued a warrant for his arrest. Ivan Cales was described as a homeless drifter. Authorities believed he fled the area long before Roxanne's remains were found. And, and you know, let's face it, did a lot of killers probably do that? Not serial killers who have a base, right? That they're operating from, but you know, if it's a, a thrill kill, or if it's a one-off and I could see somebody, you know, blowing town and wanting to get out.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause what's, why hang out? I mean, why take that risk of still being around if and when they, uh, find the body?

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. Ivan briefly resided at the home Roxanne shared with her boyfriend and others. So there, you know, now we start to get some of the tie-ins.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  And probably why they were, you know, able to develop these persons of interest so quickly. Right? They're looking at the boyfriend. They're probably looking at the ex and then they're going to look at everybody who either lived at this residence currently, or had in, in the, in the past. That's just always going to happen.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  So then you think, okay, did this Ivan guy have something with her? Did he get jealous because he couldn't have someone with her? I mean, what's the backstory?

• 20:15Speaker 00

  Well, and that's what investigators have to, to find out, but they, they got to talk to him first. Right? To even get to that point. So he was interviewed early on in the investigation. Records showed that he was originally from West Virginia. Ivan was active in online forums and wrote that he moved to Taos in the summer of 2014 to start a new life. He described himself as a survivalist, but not the nut job hoarding food and ammo type.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Just a survivalist that.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Doesn't need food or ammo.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Which doesn't sound like you're a good survivalist.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know, maybe he was just a woods, a woodsman.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  Liked to see if he could, or maybe he lived, I mean, we, we called him or we didn't call him. He was described as a homeless drifter.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  So maybe he did spend a lot of time out in the woods, foraging for food. He could build a shelter. I could see that.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  It happens.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Calling yourself a, a survivalist based on that. Law enforcement records and a series of posts on message boards described a, a child custody dispute, which suggested that he left West Virginia due to trouble. And, you know, let's face it, why would most people, you know, up and leave and to start a new life somewhere else? They're not happy. Or they've got some trouble that maybe they want to try to escape. And maybe that's what we're seeing here.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  It could be.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Law enforcement in West Virginia confirmed Ivan was jailed for several months in 2009 for violating the terms of a restraining order. On February 23rd, 2015, authorities arrested Ivan at a homeless shelter in Santa Fe. He was living under an assumed name and had changed his appearance drastically. He barely resembled the photo authorities issued when they first announced the, uh, arrest.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Clearly he knew that somebody might be coming for him. So let's change everything I can physically.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Then, you know, it's not something that a jury would look at and say, well, obviously he's guilty.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  But you know, you add all of these things up, it, it doesn't look good.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not going to come across very well.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  No, not at all. In announcing the decision to charge him with first degree murder, the judge noted that Ivan was linked to the murder weapon and the vehicle, believed to have been used to transport Roxanne's body. He attempted to distance himself from both pieces of evidence by transferring ownership. He then fled and attempted to conceal his identity. The judge did question why investigators ruled out other potential suspects, but still said there was probable cause to charge Ivan. Investigators were still waiting on forensic tests because blood found in the back of Ivan's car could not be linked to Roxanne with certainty.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Additionally, the bullet found in her head could not be confirmed as having come from Ivan's gun.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Okay. Well.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  First of all, okay, why do you have blood in the back of your car?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  You know, that, that's a question I would probably ask. They're kind of thinking this is most likely Roxanne's, but they can't say it is for certain. And you know, a lot of times with ballistics, you kind of think, well, as long as you have the gun, you can match it, but maybe not, you know? Sometimes, uh, you don't have the casing, the bullet's deformed. I, I don't know what all the different factors are. Witnesses did testify that Ivan attempted to sell the handgun and he eventually traded it for a rifle. So it's two things, right? He got rid of the car.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  And he got rid of a handgun.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Why would you do that? Because you don't want, you, you're thinking you can get rid of or hide the evidence.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's what it looks like.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Sure does.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Right? It's not, it's not slam dunking him into being guilty, but it certainly doesn't look good. The court heard that during questioning, Ivan blamed inconsistencies and lapses in his memory on schizophrenia. He claimed he didn't own or possess a gun. And he said, he didn't know when asked if he killed Roxanne, which is a strange answer.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  It is a strange answer.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Most people would say, I did or I didn't.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  But I don't know if I did. That's, that's a different type of answer. A deputy testified at the hearing that only someone familiar with the area would know about the spot where Roxanne was found and Ivan Cales was familiar with the area. Roxanne's boyfriend, Johnny Hanson testified that Ivan moved on to the property in June, 2014. Just before Roxanne went missing, she and Ivan seemed to get along. And you asked a question earlier, Gibbs, right? Like, what was their relationship? What was going on? You know, I'm sure investigators were trying to get to the, the bottom of that, but it is strange, right?

• 25:41Speaker 00

  That she goes missing not long at all after he moves in to, to this, uh, property. Johnny spent several evenings camping by himself in the Two Peaks area to quote, cool off after an argument with Roxanne. He returned on June 14th to find her gone in the house in disarray. Ivan and another acquaintance returned and said Roxanne left with her backpack. Johnny suspected she would return, but she never did. So, I mean, I think, you know, if you're authorities, right? You're getting all this information. Obviously they, they would have looked at Johnny.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  I think you'd have to.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Had, had to look at him. And so they found out at one point that the two had a fight. He said he left, went camping by himself for a couple of evenings, uh, to cool off after an argument.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  So it had to be pretty bad if he wanted to get away for a day or two to cool off.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  You would think so.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  And then he returns home, the house is in disarray. And Ivan and another person said that Roxanne left. Ivan Cale's murder trial started on March 14th, 2016. Prosecutors argued that Ivan killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch who cast a spell on him.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Okay. There's a different twist.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  It is. So I have a couple of questions for you. Number one, have you ever thought somebody was a witch?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  And number two, do you believe anyone has ever cast a spell on you?

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Oh, multiple.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Multiple times.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I don't know who you're hanging out with, so things could go a, a multitude of ways with that.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  It didn't help that I drank that one liquid that one time either, at that one event.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Very vague, but also confusing.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, purposely.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  The state also noted that Ivan lied to police in the initial interview about not having a, a gun. He shaved his head, he grew out his beard, and then he never showed up to a second scheduled interview with police.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Cause he knew that it wouldn't go well.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, a couple, you know, there's two things here, right? Number one, when police know that you're lying to them, or they find out that you're lying to them, doesn't make you look good.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  And when you don't show up to a scheduled interview with police, that doesn't make you look good either.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  No. And on top of that, if you're going to shave your head and grow out a full beard, why are you doing that?

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Just to look cool.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  No, but if you, if you then factor in selling the car.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Selling or trading in the handgun, changing your appearance, right? It all kind of

• 28:42Speaker 00

  plays in together.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it all adds up.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  In that first interview, Ivan admitted to scrubbing the interior of his vehicle. He also voluntarily admitted that he found a bone.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Okay. Why I meant that you were scrubbing your interior? I mean, why do that? Unless there's a reason why you had to scrub your interior.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Well, and obviously he didn't do a great job.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  No, he didn't.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  Right? Cause there was blood found back there. So he said he found this bone. He also said that he found a burnt bra before it was made public that both of those items were found in the Two Peaks area with Roxanne's remains.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not looking good.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  No, because you are giving information that in the minds of investigators, only the perpetrator could know. And that goes back to what we reference in a lot of the unsolved cases that we do, right? Why do they not put out certain things? And this is the reason why, right? If, if they, if they put that out to the news right away and then somebody comes in and says it, it doesn't mean as much.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Cause they could have read it in the paper. They could have seen it on television. But if it's not been disclosed and somebody comes in and says it, oh, there's a lot more weight to it.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Definitely narrows down, you know, suspects.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  I, you know, if not put it in the pinpoint right on them.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Spotlight's gotta be right on him.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Defense attorney, Thomas Clark, told the Taos News that the allegations of witchcraft were nonsense.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Tell that to the witches.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  I, I don't want to get on the bad side of any witches.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Or wizards, or I don't know, whatever's out there.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Anything, uh, mythical?

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't really want to get on the bad side of anyone who can cast a spell on me.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Well, that's why you were a little weird when we were in New Orleans.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  You stayed away from some places.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  I did, but I did find that place where they had the perfect, uh, Gibby doll.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I feel it all the time.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Sometimes, uh, when you're at work, I just sit around and.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Got that little pinprick in my back.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  His defense attorney filed a, a motion seeking to exclude some testimony pointing to a witch hunt by Ivan, but the motion was denied. In court, Thomas Clark argued that there were a lot of people with the motive to commit the crime. But Ivan had no motive.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  No, I mean, besides the fact that if you believe what was said, that he thought she was a witch and didn't want to have a spell put on him.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, is it that he doesn't have a motive or they haven't uncovered it yet?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  That's probably more likely.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Right? I mean, some motives are obvious.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  You know, if you're the husband, okay, there's a million different motives that you can talk about, whether it's life insurance money or wanting to be with someone else, not wanting to have to pay alimony, child support, those come up in a lot of cases. But they don't have that relationship. They're not even boyfriend, girlfriend. So what is it? Doesn't mean there wasn't one. Maybe they just haven't found it yet. Clark described the relationship between Roxanne, her current boyfriend and her ex-boyfriend as a love triangle with one link dead and two of the male links alive.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Strange.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  It's really strange.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  He argued that then Taos County Sheriff's Detective, Robert Salazar, who was a, a deputy at the time of the trial, failed to confirm the alibi of Roxanne's boyfriend, Johnny Hanson, who was reportedly jealous of Roxanne's ex-boyfriend slash roommate Vernon McCune.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, no doubt that was a weird scenario.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  It was.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Them all hanging out, living with each other.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. When we talked about it in the, towards the beginning of the episode, we both thought that was a, a very strange living situation.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Not one that I would ever want to find myself in.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  And so when you're looking at motives, obviously you can look at those two guys and, and develop some motives.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Sure you can.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Possibly for them, but this also goes back to, you know, people claiming that they maybe had a little tunnel vision, right? They didn't look into some of these other suspects. And you'd have to say that's true if they didn't even confirm the alibi of her boyfriend. Okay. That, that's just kind of police work 101.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Kind of problematic, you know?

• 33:41Speaker 00

  It is. Uh, and the defense attorney is going to jump on that. This guy did, rightfully so. The defense suggested detectives made mistakes when they didn't search Hanson's truck or gather DNA evidence from the burnt bra found near Roxanne's remains. Johnny Hanson testified that he spent time with Ivan in the area where Roxanne's remains were found. So these guys knew each other, but what does that mean? That also means he was familiar with the area.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  It means Ivan was, but it also means by extension that her boyfriend Johnny was as well. Hanson testified that he left his residence on foot for a couple of days after a squabble with Roxanne, which occurred when Ivan was still living there. When he returned, Ivan's belongings were strewn across the property. Ivan told him Roxanne is a liar and I voted her out of the council.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Or like that commune, like I was, I was.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Or a strange episode of Survivor.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  You know, something like that. But we just keep learning more facts and, and getting more pieces of the puzzle, right? Johnny comes back from this walkabout that he was apparently on after the fight. And not only does Ivan tell him that Roxanne left, but also his stuff is all over the, the yard. And she's, he's calling her a liar and saying that he voted her out and this and that.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Ivan moved about a half a mile away for a house sitting gig, but he kept his belongings at the other residence. So he came around often. Brandon Heathcox, who also lived on the property, testified that before Roxanne disappeared, he heard Johnny Hanson yelling at her. Hanson said, I will not put up with any more lies from you, woman.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  But what, how that went over?

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Uh, I know how it would go over in my house.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Not well.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  No. Well, obviously there's a lot of tension there.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  In this house?

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, uh, most relationships have some tension.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  But this one has a boyfriend, an ex-boyfriend. There, there's a lot. You know, this Ivan guy is in and out, apparently. There's other people living at the house. Not to mention the fact that you're in a submerged, uh, half submerged bus, school bus.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm some nighttime, whatever, right? You're, you're in this constrained area. And that's not going to be, even if you like everybody around you, it's not going to be fun.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. We don't know if had air conditioning. There's, there's a lot of things that, that don't scream out the ideal living situation, at, at least for me.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  And you know, you have to be a big share. You have to be okay with sharing a lot of things in a small space like that.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Which you know, I am not.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  No, neither am I.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  A, a good share. Heathcox also testified that he didn't attend Roxanne's service because he said it was a new age mystic pagan service that went against his religious beliefs.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  So I, I think you're closer than ever to being right on this kind of commune type aspect.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  There's just a, there was a lot of stuff going on.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Seems like it.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  At this place. Two witnesses testified that Ivan spoke about killing witches. Ivan previously lived on Michael Tebow's property. This guy testified that Ivan told him if a Wiccan ever cast a spell on him, he would have to kill the witch to get rid of the spell.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's one way to do it, right? If you got a spell put on you, gotta take the person that put the spell on you out, I guess.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Is it? I do not know all the rules about spells, witchcraft. Um, I also, I always thought Wiccan was something different, that more, you know, nature,

• 38:07Speaker 00

  kind of inspired.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  But if you're a wizard, you can reverse some things or, you know, just call your buddy at the Dungeon and Dragons next door. I think they got something like.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Get a spell from that person.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or, you know, skip two spots, advance forward, something like that.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that's Candyland. I don't, I don't believe that's Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know though. But it, but it is strange, right?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  It is.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  And you, you have to wonder, how much of this, you know, did he truly believe in? You know, also did his bipolar disorder and being on and off his meds?

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Contribute to some of the, some of this thinking.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I think he probably played into it for sure.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Thinking people were witches and, you know, casting a spell on him. Tebow also testified that Ivan had a 30 caliber pistol. And we mentioned it, right? The ballistics were inconclusive.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  But it did show that the bullet found in Roxanne's head was from the same class of gun owned by Ivan. And there were individual markings on the bullet linking it to Ivan's gun.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. To say it's the same class of gun, that's pretty.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know what they mean by class. I don't know if they mean 30 caliber. I don't know if they, I don't know.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  I think the more important thing was that they were able to link the bullet to Ivan's gun.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but not conclusively.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  So that's going to be up to the jury, right? Individual markings did link it, but the ballistics report was not conclusive. So, you know, that's going to be up to a jury.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  As a prosecutor, you would want to lay that out in front of them and hope that they just see for, for face value, not dive into too deep, right? But a defense attorney be like, well, let me break it down to you and tell you why this doesn't really mean anything.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the prosecution would have their own experts saying why it does mean something. But, you know, I think the, the science behind the ballistics, it can get pretty in depth. So, you know, as a prosecutor, you gotta be careful.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Want to get the information out there, but you don't want to overload the jury and make it feel like a, a, a senior level university class.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Where everybody's struggling to understand what the heck is going on.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Could be a problem.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Michael Tebow also gave authorities a calendar and topical graph map of the two peaks area that belonged to Ivan. The calendar had a note written in the space for June 13th, 2014. It said, the day Roxanne left Johnny's. It's such a strange entry to put on a calendar.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  It is unless you need to have that to reference back at some point.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  For what though? Why would you?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  I, I don't know. I find it strange. I do keep like a little calendar. You know, I write in all of this podcast stuff that we do, when I need to do certain things.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Again, maybe it's, maybe it depends on when he put it in there.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  As to how strange it is.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  If you did it the day of, that would be very strange to me. If you did it later on, just so you could, you know, keep a reference of it, maybe it doesn't mean as much.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  That's why I do all my calendaring mentally.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  I just.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  How's that going for you?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Right. Yep. There it is. Just put something in there right now.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  On the November page of the calendar, Ivan had written D R E skeletal left arm. And apparently D R E indicated that he had a dream.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Weird. On the map, an X marked a well near the spot where Roxanne's remains were found. The defense argued that the drawing on the map was a note about a dream Ivan had. Inmate Raymond Martinez, who shared a cell with Ivan testified that Ivan talked about witches, drew pictures of a witch hunt and told Martinez his victim was a witch.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  His victim.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Lot of witch talk.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Lot of witchery going on. Yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Very witchy. Ivan also told him that he believed if a witch cast a spell, they needed to kill the witch to break the spell. Something that you have since confirmed.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. Got to take care of that witchy woman.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  Don't know how you know that, but the prosecution presented the pencil sketches that appeared to depict a witch hunt, which were signed by Ivan. So he's an artist. In a court document, the deputy DA noted that Martinez reported to officials that Ivan talked about burning the body of a witch and cutting her hands off. The document also said that a deputy who intended an autopsy testified during a preliminary hearing that Roxanne's hands were missing.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just all tying in.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  It is, I, you know, assuming that this guy couldn't have gleaned that information from anywhere else.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  That's pretty damning evidence.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  That on top of everything else that we.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it has to be added with that stuff. Otherwise it's not going to have the power that it does.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Defense attorney, Thomas Clark argued, like a lot of people on the mesa, Ivan Kales believed in the supernatural and all those things. That doesn't make him a murderer. And that's a true statement. It doesn't.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  There's a lot of people believe in Wiccan and witchery and.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Supernatural.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Supernatural stuff. Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  I don't know what it all is, but he also said in a phone call after trial is quoted by the Taos News. The police should be more concerned about a serial killer out here than Ivan Kales. And I get that, right? The defense attorney is trying to soften his client up, but how can police not be worried about this guy with all of the evidence that they've uncovered?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Good point.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  He looks good for it.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Strong.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. The defense noted that a search of Ivan's vehicle found no traces of blood. Clothing believed to have blood on it tested negative for DNA. The defense said Roxanne's neighbor, Sunshine Harper, was the most important witness. Harper said that she talked to Roxanne on the road for about 30 minutes on June 13th, 2014. Roxanne had her backpack and said she was planning to hitchhike into town to meet Vern to go to Colorado. She didn't know when she would return. That was the last time Roxanne was seen alive.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  I mean, that's an important piece of the puzzle, right? To know last time she was seen. You know, helps you back into some other possible dates and things like that.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, if sunshine's telling the truth, this conversation would be kind of important. Right? If Roxanne really did say that she was going to meet Vern and the two of them were planning to leave for Colorado. In an interview after trial, Harper told the Taos News that he did not state that Roxy was going to Colorado to be with Vern. As the defense argued, but that she described, Roxy was going to Colorado to drop Vern off and come back to be with Johnny. So I think the defense is either twisting her words and she's clarifying it,

• 46:16Speaker 00

  or she really did say that and now she's saying something different. Again, tough job for the jury with some of this stuff.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. You got to really weed through a lot of things.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Because it's always the prosecution saying this.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  The defense arguing something different and vice versa. According to the Taos News, the recorded testimony did not replay her statement on this subject because the defense objected, calling it hearsay. And to me, you know, I don't know, if I'm a juror, I'm thinking they don't want it replayed because they know they're wrong.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's the problem with things like this.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Once it's out there.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  But now you're, you're only supposed to, right? As a, as a juror, make your decision based on the facts.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  But how could you not weigh something like that in? Just common sense.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's going to be hard to do.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Tells you that if the defense is objecting to it, it's because they don't want it played.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Why is that?

• 47:20Speaker 00

  And why is that? Right? You got to figure that out. On March 18th, 2016, Ivan Kales was found guilty of first degree murder and evidence tampering. On May 12th, he was sentenced to life in prison plus three years for the evidence tampering charge. At the sentencing hearing, defense attorney, Thomas Clark said, it was shocking. The jury found Ivan guilty after Detective Robert Salazar testified that the incident could have been a snatch and grab. Well, if you ask the question, could this have been a snatch and grab? And a detective says, yeah, I guess, you know, it could have been.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Is that some kind of bombshell revelation?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  I don't think so either. You know, a lot of times attorneys ask questions like that because they want it said, but what does it really mean?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  I mean, you got somebody basically hiking, right? Of course, anybody could come along and snatch and grab.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  But where is the evidence pointing?

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Clark argued for retrial. He also noted, since the trial, one woman has disappeared. One one, one woman has been found dead and a man was arrested with another man. Referencing the recent disappearance of Taos resident Holly White in the confessions by two men of murdering a missing woman named Naomi Chaney. He said, my argument that Roxanne Houston was alive and walking down the road with her backpack on and could have just been snatched and grabbed and killed has become more pertinent and more potent.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  And the possibility that there is a serial killer in Taos County is now even more powerful than it ever was before. Even more powerful than before trial.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  But can't you argue? Yeah, that can be true, but let's talk about the fact that he's on trial. Because he has, he knows where the body was. He cut his hair and grew a beard, changed his appearance. He, he sold his car, sold his gun or traded his gun.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot of things point to him more than just a random.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Serial killer?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Now, I get the argument that the defense attorney is making, but that's not where the evidence is pointing.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  No, nowhere near it.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  These seem to be completely separate murders. He then asked the court to find him defective as an attorney, claiming he made fundamental errors during trial and should have asked for a mistrial.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Maybe setting, setting something up down the road.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Well, let's face it, most of these convicted murderers later, later claim ineffective assistance of counsel. Anyway.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  It's almost like he's getting a, a head start on it. Roxanne's father gave a victim impact statement. He said, he was now raising all four children. And that prior to Roxanne's disappearance, she was calling weekly and had intentions to return to Colorado to renew her life with her kids. Roxanne's boyfriend, Johnny Hanson, also told Ivan Kips, I forgive you, but the truth will set you free.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  That old saying, huh?

• 51:03Speaker 00

  It is, yeah. Some people can. We've always talked about how we thought it would be really hard.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Man, you know, here's a guy in Roxanne's father who lost Roxanne, has to take care of four children.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. How rough would that be? You know?

• 51:24Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm sure he loves them, but it's still a lot, right? Especially as you get older, that stuff becomes a little tougher.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  But they are your grandkids, so you would do what you have to do.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, what other choice do you have? And I'm sure he probably cherishes it and the time. Ivan lost his appeal to the state Supreme Court in August, 2018. In 2020, he filed a handwritten petition arguing he didn't get a fair trial. He noted the sketches that were found in his cell while awaiting trial. Prosecutors believe the drawing showed he killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch. Ivan claimed those drawings were based on a movie he saw at the time. Taos County Sheriff Jerry Hoagrave told K R Q E, he believed it was Ivan's interrogation

• 52:17Speaker 00

  that led to the conviction. And we mentioned it, right? During the interrogation, he claimed that he found a burned bra, he found a bone, and this information was never made public.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  And it was something, at least to law enforcement, that only the killer or someone involved could have known. And I would think that would be very powerful to the jury. It's something that, you know, the prosecution is really going to play up. They're going to put a lot of weight on that. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, as of today, Ivan Kales remains incarcerated in New Mexico. The one thing that I did think was a little strange about the trial. And maybe it happened and we just didn't see it in the reporting or it wasn't reported on.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  You know, this mention of Kales that he had bipolar disorder, that he was not taking his medication all the time. He was kind of on and off of it. I, I just wonder how much of that was brought up in the trial because it didn't seem to make it into the reporting, if it was.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Didn't see a lot about it. And you would think that would be something that the defense would bring up. Now, at least, at the very least, at sentencing, now maybe in trial, they're not going to bring it up because they're still fighting for an acquittal.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  So that has no bearing, but you would think at sentencing, that would be, you know, something that they would bring up.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it could help lessen what he gets.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Try to mitigate the sins in some way. But that's it for our episode on Roxanne Houston. What do you got, man? Anything?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I was just thinking how fascinating that actually was.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  The case?

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  There was a lot of strange things. And when I say strange, it's strange for me and you, right? It may not be strange for other people. There are other people who, you know, might have lived through situations where they lived with a boyfriend and an ex at the same time. I, I've never done that. To me, that's, you know, different. And the fact that there was all these people kind of living in the same residence and you have somebody go missing. Okay. Well, you have a lot of people to look at.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  That would be, that would be a different scenario, I think, that, you know, to live in a compound like that. I don't know if I could ever do that.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it would, it would definitely be different. But here's the thing, right? The prosecution put forward that Ivan killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  If that wasn't the case, what was the motive?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Good point.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  Why'd he do it? There was a lot of evidence indicating that he did it.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  But as to the why, all we really have is, you know, what the prosecution put out there. And he kind of dismissed that.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  So I don't know. Maybe there was more that, that was going on that's just never come out.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Only he can tell us.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, but he probably won't.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  I doubt it.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  But that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.