Paula Chin

In February 2019, wealthy 65-year-old businesswoman Paula Chin disappeared from her Tribeca home and was later found murdered, her body hidden in a trash can at her New Jersey property. Investigators uncovered blood evidence, suspicious late-night trips, surveillance footage showing people moving something heavy into Paula’s car, and a trail of disturbing text messages. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Paula Chin. As detectives dug deeper, they discovered tensions involving money, inheritance, and people within Paula’s inner circle. The evidence ultimately exposed a shocking plot involving someone very close to Paula, along with others who helped clean the crime scene and dispose of her body. The case eventually resulted in a guilty plea to second-degree murder and a sentence of 22 years to life in prison. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:48Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 534 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I'm doing good, man, and you?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  I'm doing great.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  You always doing great.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Most weeks I really am.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  I like my life.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I like my life, too.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  I'm pretty happy.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  That's good. You should be.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Most of the time.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Elizabeth Neal.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  What's going on, Elizabeth?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Leah Stebbins.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Hey, Leah.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Goose DeWitt.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Well, thanks, Goose.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Alexandra.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Hey, Alexandra.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Joe Revins.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  What's going on, Joe?

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Wendy.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Ah, just Wendy.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  Nicole Williamson.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Hey, Nicole.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  And last but not least, Whitney Goff jumped out to her highest level.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Whitney Go.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  So, yeah, thanks for the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  This week, we selected Brandon Leon.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Mr. Leon.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  So appreciate the continued support as well.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  We do.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Michelle Parker. She went missing in 2011 after dropping off her twins at her ex-fiance's home. Now, over 10 years later, there has been no sign of her, and no charges have ever been filed in connection with her disappearance.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Could be a good one to dive into.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, we get into all of it. And then on next Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about the 1991 abduction of Cindy Winner. She was abducted from her home outside Sacramento, and then later found strangled to death. It's a fascinating case because it took 30 some years.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  To figure it out. But authorities used facial recognition to help solve her murder.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Again, that was challenging, but they came through.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I am.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  We're talking about Paula Chin. Paula Chin was a wealthy Tribeca woman who was reported missing in February 2019 and was later found dead in a trash can at her second home in New Jersey. Authorities quickly found a surprising killer with a personal motive. And I mentioned it when we did our Patreon this week, but, you know, I don't know a lot about New York City. You know, I've heard of Tribeca. I always thought of it as like a kind of a posh, trendy place.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  But I've never actually been to New York City. So most of my knowledge is gleaned from TV shows and movies.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  New York City.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  And you and your old El Paso commercials.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  They got some good salsa there.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  But my wife has been on me for years to go to New York, and I think we're gonna have to go.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  But you know, I don't like crowds, so.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  That's the wrong place to go, man.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  It's probably what's kept me from going all these years.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  You know, let's go for a weekend.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  It's enough. You can see what you need to see and.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I gotta do it. I'm 53 years old. At some point, you gotta tick some of this stuff off your.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  Bucket list. 65-year-old Paula Chin was a retired businesswoman who lived in a town home in the Tribeca neighborhood of Lower Manhattan. She grew up in Queens. Those who knew her described her as a fun person, who was willing to try new things, and she always had a smile on her face.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Happy-go-lucky.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is a good way to be, right? People prefer to be around those types of individuals. Nobody wants to be around a sourpuss all the time. You know, it's just not fun.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  What if somebody does? Like, I wanna surround myself with a bunch of miserable sourpusses all day.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  And maybe there are some individuals like that. I'm not one. You know, I like to be around positive people who, you know, are having a good time, enjoying themselves, going through life in a good manner. I don't wanna be around Debbie Downer from Saturday Night Live all the time.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  They'd be okay to do once in a while, just to piss them off. Like, just be like, man, things are great today, guys, isn't it? Isn't it? Come on, guys. You know, aren't you having a great time today?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  No, they're not having a good time. Paula was married to Philip Eng. They had two sons together, Brandon and Jared. Paula was a successful businesswoman. She and her husband amassed significant wealth in real estate with a paper products business. In 1987, they purchased their town home in Tribeca and another home in Morris Township, New Jersey. Paula lived in one of the most coveted areas of Tribeca. And I think you would need to be pretty successful. You would need to have some money, right? To live in this area. We know real estate is very, very expensive.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the paper product business is a good one to be in. I mean, Michael Scott did pretty good there.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  He did.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Even started his own company at one point.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  He did.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Now, I would say he was not nearly as successful as I believe Paula was. Sadly, Philip died of lung cancer in 2008, when he was just in his 50s. His sons at that time were just six and eight years old. But all of the money was left to Paula. She devoted her life to her sons. She emphasized the importance of education. Brandon and Jared attended exclusive high schools in New York City. It was said that she was close with both of them. Paula decided to retire in her mid-60s. She was looking forward to traveling and enjoying the money she worked so hard to earn.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  That's what you're supposed to do.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  It's kind of the dream, right? You know, we work hard.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  And we work a long time.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  If you think about it.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Still am.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying. From late teens, for some people, early 20s, to what? 65-ish is probably the average retirement age.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I've been going at it since eight, though. They started putting me in front of certain people doing equations and stuff.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Solve this now, please.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  We were also in the Little Rascals there for a while.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  That's true, you know.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Froggy.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Froggy, and then I also did some stand-in for Alfalfa, you know? Stunt work.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  But this is what people aspire to do, right? You work hard, you save your money, and then when you retire, you have enough so that you can do what you wanna do. Late on February 4, 2019, Paula was reported missing by her sons. Jared, who by that time was 22 years old, and Brandon, who was 24. Paula was last seen at the end of January. Jared and Brandon had been trying to reach her for three to four days, but their calls went straight to voicemail. And I'm sure that was very concerning for them. We talked about it, right? How close the three of them were. The mom and the sons.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  You know, their dad died when they were very young. So growing up, that's really the only person they had was their mom, it sounds like.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  That's probably why they got even closer.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say that had a lot to do with it. Jared mentioned that Paula was suffering from dementia. Right away, Jared provided the name and number of a man Paula was seeing, but investigators couldn't get in contact with him right away over the phone. And obviously, as we've talked about in many cases, you're gonna wanna talk to the current partner, right? First and foremost.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  And then you branch out. You're gonna wanna talk to exes. You wanna talk to family members. Because I just got done talking about how much money Paula had amassed. So if you're an investigator working this case, do you also have to think about the sons?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Well, I think so. I mean, money could be the potential motive, right?

• 10:19Speaker 00

  And they would be said to inherit, you would think, all of her money. Police checked local hospitals and processed Paula's license plate through the NYPD's License Plate Reader System. This tool showed that Paula's car made several late-night trips from Tribeca to New Jersey in the three to four days before she was reported missing. This was unusual, as she had never made this trip in the middle of the night before. Paula also had no history of running away.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  There would be no reason. Somebody at her age, with her type of money, would need to run away.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  And by my way of thinking, there would also be no reason why she would need to make this trip in the middle of the night.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  I think her schedule was probably fairly open. Most people don't like driving at night. It's harder to see, especially as you get older. So that seems like, you know, that would be very out of the ordinary. And from the beginning, things just weren't adding up to investigators.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Detectives arrived at Paula's home at 2:00 AM on February 5th. Her car was parked right in front of her townhouse. Inside her car was a bag that contained the clothes Jared said his mother was last seen wearing. And those clothes Gibbs were stained with blood. Investigators also found a blanket and duct tape and blood on the carpet.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Well, as these officers show up, their suspicion level has to be through the roof.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Oh, once you find this stuff, oh my gosh, yeah. Someone's reported missing their cars there, but there's bloody items. There's blood on the carpet. Okay, things aren't looking too good. And when you find duct tape, that is nine times out of 10, a red flag.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  I hope it say yes.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Duct tape can be used for a lot of things.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Can't be.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  But it is also often used by nefarious people. That's why you keep seven, eight, nine rolls in your vehicle at all times.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  I do have some duct tape in my vehicle and zip ties. So many uses for those zip ties.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all going to come out when they do the Netflix documentary down the road at some point. While they still didn't know for sure if they were dealing with a homicide. The detectives at the house had a bad feeling that something terrible happened to Paula. And we just talked about it, right? How could they not based on what they found in the car? The car was processed for fingerprints and DNA. The search then moved inside Paula's house. Investigators used a special light to illuminate blood spatter in the kitchen, which indicated someone had attempted to clean up the blood. And that's always fascinating, right?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  To see a room light up and for them to be able to see right away where blood was. And oftentimes you can see like the swirl marks where somebody was cleaning and cleaning, but they just, they can't remove every trace of it.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  They think they can.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Sure. Because to the naked eye, it might look clean. Carpeting, pillows and kitchenware were collected from the scene. Investigators then rushed to Paula's second home in New Jersey. In the basement was a child sized winter sled and they found blood under the sled. More blood was found in the garage as well as duct tape and bloody rubber gloves in the garbage.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Well, someone didn't do a great job of getting rid of evidence.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I wonder why that was. You know, was the killer rushed in some way? Did they feel rushed or were they just sloppy? Had little knowledge of forensics or we just don't know.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Did they think they had more time that they could come back later and?

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Possibly.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Outside investigators found a trash can and Paula's feet were sticking out of it. The trash was due to be picked up that morning, meaning they narrowly missed the possibility of Paula's body being collected and taken to a different facility.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Maybe, I mean, I don't know what kind of trash system they have there. But I'm thinking if it's the type, the type where the guys are in the back of the truck and they get it rolled up and hook it up. I would hope someone would see the feet and be like, hey, hey.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Wait, let's wait a minute.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Let's roll off here.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Now, I'm thinking a lot of these new, you know, a lot of times they have the ones where the truck has the little arm and it comes up and picks it and dumps it. And they're probably not even looking at.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Right. You don't even know what was just dumped.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, in some scenarios, but yeah, if somebody's getting out and they're actually have to pick it up like and throw it in, you would think they would have noticed it.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  But then again, they might be like, hey, it's like 11:30, dude. We got lunch. If we call the police now, we're probably not going to get lunch and then we're going to be late and then the boss is going to be mad because we didn't get the route done. Let's just go ahead and dump this thing.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  But the other thing is, you know, that's not an easy job, right? You're picking up these trash cans all day long, but this would be a very heavy trash can.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  I would, I would think.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  If it had a human body.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  I would think.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Paula had been brutally attacked. She died from multiple blunt impacts to her head and a stab wound to her neck. So this missing persons case quickly turned to a murder investigation. Detective Sergeant Nicole Monica recalled that she was at the precinct when Brandon Eng received the news that his mother was dead. She told the show New York homicide that Brandon seemed to be in a fall and that Jared also seemed shocked. That's what you would expect.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I would think so.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Right? If a son or two sons found out that their mother was dead, murdered. I mean, that would be unbelievably shocking.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  It's like they were just in disbelief.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  According to Detective Monaco, she said, it's very difficult to describe. When he looked at you, he was looking through you. You know, you'd have a conversation with him and the way he stared at you wasn't like a normal stare. And it was, it was, I don't know if she was talking specifically about Brandon or Jared, or maybe both of them, but she did say he. Around this time, police finally got in contact with Paula's boyfriend. He spoke to Detective Sergeant Monaco and said he hadn't seen or spoken to Paula in a number of days. He was ultimately ruled out as a suspect.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  So now it seems like it doesn't look great for the boys or one of the boys, maybe.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Well, I would think attention definitely has to turn to them for sure. Now, my first thought was, you know, could a boyfriend kill? Yeah, absolutely. It happens, but there's a lot less motive.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  For him to kill, what's in it for him?

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Unless he's labeled on a insurance policy or on the bank accounts or something.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Or something like that. I mean, they're not married, so he's not getting anything through, you know, that avenue. Police interviewed Paula's son separately. Jared and Brandon were asked if there was anything else about Paula's life that investigators needed to know. Brandon revealed some critical information in his interview. He took issue with Jared's assertion that Paula had dementia. He explained that Paula had always been somewhat forgetful, but he hadn't seen any progression or any other signs of dementia. Brandon also mentioned that Jared and Paula had some disputes about money.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Jared failed out of the state university of New York, which disappointed Paula. He moved back in with her in Tribeca and started attending community college. Jared was also constantly trying to borrow money from his mom and he wasn't asking for small amounts. He would ask for, you know, 2,500, $5,000 at a time.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay. That's some big number.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Brandon told Jared he needed to stop asking their mom for money. So it's interesting, right? The siblings are being questioned and you know, Brandon is revealing some information that doesn't really make his brother Jared look all that good.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  You know, initially, you know, you kind of thought these brothers were close.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Which they could have been.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you don't see this coming.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  No, even if there's some friction in the family, right? Which there's frictions in a lot of families, let's be honest. Would you really think that one of your brothers was capable of murdering your mother? And I think for most people, that's, that would just be inconceivable.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  To use a phrase from Princess Bride, inconceivable.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  That's pretty good.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  I just don't think most people would kind of let their mind go there.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  I don't think they would want their mind to go there.

• 19:59Speaker 00

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• 20:44Speaker 00

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• 21:28Speaker 00

  When asked if he thought Jared could be involved in the murder, Brandon said yes. The detective who interviewed him recalled that Brandon actually winced when he asked the question. It's almost like, yeah, I hate to say it, but I do think that he could be involved. Investigators also learned that Jared was involved with two women. 22 year old Caitlin O'Rourke, who he met at SUNY and 18 year old Jennifer Lopez, whom he met when he returned to New York City. Unfortunately for him, not the famous Jennifer Lopez, I'm assuming.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think so. But that's a lot to juggle there. I mean, your early days before you got married, you would date multiple women. I don't know how you could.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Dating is a strong word, but.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I don't know how you pull it off.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  No, I was, I was not a lethario by any means, but you're right. You know, I think anytime you're juggling multiple partners, depending on the seriousness of the relationships, that's, it's a lot to pull off.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I would think so.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  You know, you're juggling calls, you're juggling dates. You don't want one person to be at your place when the, another one shows up.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Conversations, you know?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  You gotta remember what you said to one person and not mix it up with what you said with, to the other one. Now, we don't know, cause we've never been in this position, we're just assuming.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  According to the show, New York homicide, both girls were so in love with Jared, they were willing to share him.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  I don't know if I really believe that. I can't imagine a woman being like, that's okay, babe. You go be with her, I'm with you too, you know?

• 23:21Speaker 00

  I think there are maybe some people like that. I think it's probably a, not normal in our generation. It's not what we're used to.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  I don't know about the younger generation and what they've got going on, but I'm assuming that the show probably talked to the girls and they, they probably confirmed it. But it would make it a lot easier, right? All that stuff I talked about with the juggling and everything. Okay, probably not quite as hard then.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if you can just be upfront and say, hey, I'm dating you and I'm going to date her, you guys get along, if not, I'll find someone else to replace one of you. Let's go have a good time. I just don't see it working out.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  It wouldn't work out for most people. Jared explained that he was dating both of them and described himself as polyamorous and gender fluid.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Gender fluid.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Those are, those are terms that I hear floated around a lot these days.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, investigators were searching for security cameras in the area that might have important evidence. There were few cameras in Paula's neighborhood because historic buildings in New York City are limited in how many cameras they can have.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Did not know that.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  I didn't either, but it does kind of make some sense, right? You have these old historic buildings. Do you really want to be drilling into them to mount security cameras all over the place? Probably not. Also makes it a little less safe though.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  It does.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  But if you're in that posh area of Tribeca, is safety your biggest concern? It probably isn't.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  I think there's some privacy concerns too, with cameras.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  That's true. However, there was a commercial business that captured Paula's residence. The surveillance footage showed a vehicle backing up to her home. At one point Jared was there with one female and then at another point, he was there with two females. The two individuals appeared to be struggling to lift something heavy into Paula's car. And these two women were soon identified as Jennifer Lopez and Kaitlyn O'Rourke. Jared was still at the precinct when investigators found the footage. He was detained as a person of interest and it was said that he seemed unfazed, which is kind of a strange way to feel or act at that point.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  If I'm caught up in any type of murder investigation and at any point I seem unfazed, something is really wrong with me.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Because I'm going to be shitting bricks. I'm definitely not going to be unfazed at that point.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Jared admitted to using his mom's car twice. Between January 31st and February 1st, he made the first trip to New Jersey to get his coin collection to sell for a rent down payment. Later that afternoon, he returned to start apartment hunting in the area. But at some point during this discussion, Jared stopped talking and he requested a lawyer.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  I think that's smart.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, you and I talk about it a lot, right? Is it a good idea? Yeah. But what are investigators left to think? Most of the time, even though they know it's a right, it's not going to make you look less guilty, that's for sure.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Jennifer Lopez was also arrested, but refused to answer questions. Kaitlyn O'Rourke initially denied any knowledge of the murder, but detectives continued pressing her. She then said that Jared controlled them. And you know what? There's always someone who cracks.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  There is.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  I would say most of the time, not always, but most of the time when you have multiple people, the authorities are going to get one person to crack. There's always going to be a weak link.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Well, if you can scare them enough, I mean, this is murder charges.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. This is as bad as it gets. Kaitlyn revealed that Jared hated his mother. He told Kaitlyn something to the effect of, according to one detective, she's cheap. She doesn't want to give me money. I want my inheritance now, I'm going to kill her.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  I guess he felt that he was entitled, huh?

• 27:44Speaker 00

  I think entitled is a pretty good word. He also seems a little spoiled.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Lazy.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Lazy, impetuous. There's probably a whole bunch of adjectives you could throw in there.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Jared promised that with the money he would get, he would take care of Kaitlyn and Jennifer for the rest of their lives. Do you know how much money it costs to take care of two people for the rest of their lives?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Much more than I think he realized when he made that statement.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Probably, I get it. His mom was probably pretty wealthy, but it's very expensive to take care of anybody for the rest of their lives if they're never going to work. I mean, anybody who has kids can attest to that.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  That's just a, that's a really big promise.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  It is. Because what happens if you don't fulfill that promise? Well, you're opening yourself up to them potentially.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Spilling the beans.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Spilling the beans and you being a murderer. Jared's plan to kill Paula was enacted at Paula's home on January 31st, 2019. Jared snapped during an argument over his inheritance. He beat Paula, stabbed her in the throat and then threw her down the stairs. Three hours later, he texted, it's done. I'm free. And that he got rid of his problem. And we ask this question quite a bit, right? How could this person do what they did? But Gibbs, how can a son beat his mother, stab her in the throat and then throw her down the stairs?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  And call her a problem.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. This is the woman who brought you into the world.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Raised you, by all accounts, loved you more than, you know, anything else. Tried to set him up, right? Send him to the best schools that he apparently couldn't make it through.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And we know eventually he'll dispose of her body in a trash can. Your mom put inside of a trash can to be eventually, if not found, taken to a dump.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  And just to be with trash forever?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Sit there and rot away.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  In a landfill or whatever it is. That is horrible. Jennifer came over and helped clean up the crime scene. Kaitlyn said that Jared called her after he and Jennifer moved the body. Jared admitted he killed his mom and he said it took her a while to die. And to me, that statement says a lot. This wasn't, you know, self-defense where you plunged a knife into somebody during an altercation, right? When it takes a long time for somebody to die, that automatically means that you could have gotten them help.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  And most likely saved their life. But he absolutely chose not to. Why? Because he wanted her to die.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  So that he could get his hands on her money.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  It's all mattered to him.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Plain and simple.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Money.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Jennifer also texted Kaitlyn saying it's all clean. The hardest part was backing up the car. Kaitlyn said that on February 1st, the three of them went to Morris Township, New Jersey and moved the body to an outside garbage container. She attempted to wash clothes from the crime scene at the New Jersey home. And it was Jennifer who actually drove because she was the only one with a license. I get it. A lot of people in New York probably don't get their license.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Because it's easier to.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  It's too expensive to own a car there.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Walk or use public transportation. But also it seems to me that younger people nowadays are waiting longer and longer to get their license, just in general.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  But can we go back to these two women for a minute? You are given a proposition. Will you participate? Will you help me kill my mother in exchange for me basically taking care of you for the rest of your life? Meaning, you don't have to work or whatever, we'll just all live together, I'll pay for everything.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  And you take that in, you mull it over and what pops out is, yeah, sure, I'm in.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  So shallow they had to be. They were okay living with the fact that he killed his mom. They were aware of it. They might have been able to stop it and they helped clean it up, cover it up.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  And they participated. Yeah. And, and in a large way. Jared tried to reassure Jennifer and Caitlin by telling them that rich people can get a good lawyer. And they don't have to go to jail for these crimes. Jennifer and Caitlin expressed their worry because they weren't rich, but Jared said he would take care of it for them.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I'll take care of it for you. Well, wait a minute. Let's see. If I get in trouble, I probably don't get that money. Maybe I can't take care of, uh, legal stuff for you.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  But that thought, right? That rich people don't go to jail for these types of crimes.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Because they have the money to get a good lawyer.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  And connections in some cases.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  But to me, that just really shows you this guy's mindset.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's his mentality. Like, hey, I'm untouchable because I have all this money.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Or I will have.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  I will have all this money that I'm, you know, I deserve.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  But investigators needed more than just Caitlin's statement. So they subpoenaed Paula's personal records and Jared's personal records. Jared's texts indicated that he was considering killing his mother days before the homicide. He texted one of the girls before the murder, going to do this thing tonight. Phone data also showed that Jared was searching for estate lawyers and looking into how quickly he could collect death benefits.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Oh, I believe that. He was money hungry.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. But he's also showing his level of premeditation.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Sure he is.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Or at least his records are, are showing that. The Manhattan DA's office noted that Jared began the process of changing the passwords on Paula's bank accounts and researching ways to dispose of bodies. He made a disturbing search about DIY bone meal.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's disgusting.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Do it yourself bone meal.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  So that means he was thinking about dismembering her body, but also trying to crush it up in some way.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  What it sounds like. I mean, he's, he's doing all this stuff on his computer or his mom's computer. Right? Changing the bank account and I mean, researching this stuff. It doesn't sound like he's the smartest kid, but I guess he doesn't have to be because he feels like, dude, all I need to do is get one of these attorneys for rich people and I don't have anything to worry about anyway.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I'm with you. I don't know if he was as smart as his brother was. He couldn't hack it at the college he was at. Now that, that may have not had anything to do with intelligence. It could have just been he had a bad work ethic.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  But when you kind of look at the way he carried this thing out, it doesn't scream genius criminal mastermind.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  I mean, who in the world leaves a body in the trash cans with the feet sticking out?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. It leaves the car with stuff still sitting in it.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Bloody clothes, uh, blood on the carpet, duct tape.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  It just seems like this, this kid was lazy. He's just lazy. That's what I believe. I think he wanted the, uh, easy way to live his life.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  Oh, I definitely think he wanted that.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  To the point that he was willing to, and did sacrifice his mom. And somehow let's had the, uh, the wordsmith to enhance or not enhance, but entice these two girls to go along with them.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. He talked them into it. But you used the word entitled earlier, and I think that's probably the best word.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Because he really felt, I believe, that he was entitled to this money. That his mom and dad had worked all their lives to build. And him at what 27 years old should have it.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  And that's the problem, I think, with anybody that feels like they are entitled to get the money that their mom and dad have currently. Like, why should I do anything? Eventually I'm going to get, inherit this house or eventually I'll get this money that mom and dad said that they have, you know, a couple of million bucks in their 401k or whatever. This is, that's going to be mine. So I'm not going to worry about anything.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Well, that part is true, right? For most people, eventually you are going to get it.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  But at what point? You don't know when you're, how long your parents are going to live. It doesn't mean you, you just can bum around until they die. And it certainly doesn't mean that they should be killed so that you can start living life the way you want to with their money.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. You can't expedite this process.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  As he was led out of a police precinct on February 6th, after questioning, reporters asked Jared if he killed his mother. He replied, I did not. I loved her. She gave me everything.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  This makes me crawl. My skin crawl.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  Well, I think the she gave me everything part was true, right? I think she did give him everything. But they, but that wasn't enough.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  No, he wanted more.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  He wanted more than everything. He wanted more than his fair share. That's, that's for sure.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  But also, you know, these reporters are asking him if he killed his mother. What's he supposed to say?

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did it. No.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  He's got an attorney now, so he's not going to say something stupid.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  No, he's going to lie. On February 7th, 2019, Jared Ing was formally charged with evidence tampering and concealment of a corpse. He was later charged with murder. And you do see that quite a bit in cases. The murder charge doesn't always come right away.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  There's some other charges that are easily proved at that point in time. And they kind of wait on the murder until they are able to put more things together sometimes. Caitlin and Jennifer were also charged with evidence tampering and concealment.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  As they should have been.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, you can say they didn't commit the murder, but they played a role in it. And in some states, I, I think you can make an argument that they could have gotten charged with murder.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I think so. They knew that he wanted to do this and he, they had the text messages too, right?

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. And they were there, uh, at certain parts. On February 8th, Jared did an hour long interview with the New York Post where he denied killing Paula for her money. He admitted they had a fight over her declining health in the hours before her murder. He said, it was never about the money, but also said, there was a lot of money in there. Like 10 million, maybe 11 million. Right? Don't get me wrong. 10, 11 million dollars is a lot of money.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  But is it enough for three people in their twenties to live the rest of their life on? Probably not the way they're going to spend it.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  No, and you gotta remember it's going to be split down the middle, I'm assuming because his brother's going to probably get half.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  You're right. So he might only get five.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So out of the five million, there's no way for the rest of your life, you're going to live off that and take care of these two, uh, girls.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not, not going to have.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Not the lifestyle that he's used to.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  The other thing is whenever somebody says it wasn't about the money, it was about the money.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  It's always about the money.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it almost always turns out that way.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you look at some of the things that he said to the girls, you know, it's about the money.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. You could tell that from his text messages and other things. It's just funny when people say that it wasn't about the money. It almost always turns out to be solely about the money.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  According to Philip Ing's will obtained by the Post, Jared and Brandon wouldn't receive their inheritance from their father until they turned 35. The will showed that Philip left everything to his wife. But the will dictated that if Paula died, the sons would split the estate.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  And that makes sense.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  It does, but it's also not only expediting money that they would be getting from Paula. It's expediting Philip's money.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  As well, because they're not slated to get that until they're 35.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  But now with the mom dead.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  They would split it.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  They would split it.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Oh. But here's a thought that, you know, I had. I get it. He wants all this money and it's greed. It's, it's nasty. But he was probably set to inherit quite a bit of money at the age of 35.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  But he couldn't even wait that long.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  No, he couldn't. Cause he was spoiled.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  He was. I, I truly believe that. And spoiled is not the worst thing in the world. Some people are spoiled and they handle it just fine. They still become very productive, caring members of society. Some people do not. And unfortunately, that's what we're dealing with here in, in Jared. He was spoiled, but then went on to believe he was entitled. The, the rules didn't apply to him. And as long as he wanted it, then he could take it.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  He also had a lifestyle he had to keep up, right? He had two women that he was involved with, that he needed to, you know, pay the tab.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  And it's probably why he went to, you know, as his brother Brandon said, he would go to his mom wanting 2,500, $5,000, uh, very frequently.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Jared declined to discuss the particulars of his case, but said, I want to clear my name. I didn't kill her. He later wondered if he really did, saying, I was feeling suicidal. I was having these thoughts. What if I did do it? Maybe I did do it. Then I don't deserve to live.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  So you want people to feel sorry for you, huh?

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think he's full of it.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  I absolutely do. I think he knows or knew back then, and still does, exactly what he did.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Maybe his attorney says, we gotta create some type of reasonable doubt. Maybe you need to start saying some things.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Jared portrayed himself as a devoted son, concerned for his mother's wellbeing after their dad died. He said he wanted his mom to get out more. He also claimed that the argument he had with Paula on January 30th was because he was urging her to see a doctor for arthritis and possible early Alzheimer's. He said, one can observe it themselves. They need people around them.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Oh, look at him. He's a caring son.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  But it flies in the face of what his brother said.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely does.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Right? He said he never saw any signs of dementia or, you know, possible early Alzheimer's, anything like that. Jared said Paula was generous with her money and estimated she kept her money across several accounts. He wasn't allowed to touch. He said, she gave me everything. If I needed anything, she gave it to me. Money, she gave it to me. She didn't have to work if she didn't want to. I think at one point that was true. I have a feeling though, Gibbs, that she stopped because he was just asking for large, wild sums of money more and more frequently.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think she said, you know what? Enough.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think at one point she had to put her foot down and that's when he probably thought, or started to think, or maybe made the decision that he was gonna kill her.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  When you feel entitled and all of a sudden that entitlement goes away, you have to think, okay, I either need to find a way to get it back, or my lifestyle is gonna change drastically and I can't have that.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Jared refused to speculate on who may have killed Paula. He claimed that he and his brother reported her missing on a Friday, when other sources said she was reported missing on Monday. He also said, I was worried for my brother because he's next of kin. I'm worried someone is going to go after him. You know, the only person who would go after him?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jared.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Is Jared. On February 27th, 2019, Jared entered a not guilty plea at his arraignment after he was indicted for second degree murder. Both Jared and Jennifer Lopez were also indicted for concealing a corpse, three counts each of hindering prosecution. Kaitlyn and Jennifer ultimately cooperated with prosecutors and were sentenced to probation. And that was probably really smart on their part.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  It's one of the best things they probably could have done for themselves.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, because they, they were gonna, they were looking at time, right? They were gonna do some time. But, you know, who does the DA really want? They want Jared.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  And to get him, they need Kaitlyn and Jennifer to cooperate. And so they make a deal with them and, you know, it's just something that sometimes has to be done.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  And like I said a few minutes ago, that's the best thing they could hope for.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, probation? You, you ain't getting a better deal than that.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a story, I guess. I mean, it's, I don't know if I'd even want to tell the story, but if I, I guess if I wanted to, I'd be like, man, I did something really bad, but because I cooperated with the police, I'm here today. I didn't have to do any time for it. And people will be like, dang girl, you should have did some time for that.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, probably. I think a lot of people would think that, but I get the, you know, having to, you know, make a deal to ensure that you get the conviction. Because Kaitlyn and Jennifer did some stuff they shouldn't have done.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  But what they did was wrong, but they didn't kill, right?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Jared killed his mother.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  They helped cover it. They helped clean up.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Which is bad, but it's not murder.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like because the police really needed them, they were lucky that they didn't get in more trouble because at least one of them knew ahead of time that he was gonna do this.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Well, you have to have the police to need you, right? To get the deal. So that, that is definitely part of the equation. On September 16th, 2022, Jared pleaded guilty to one count of second degree murder. On October 26th, he was sentenced to 22 years to life in prison.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  So second degree murder. I, I think this is where a, a good attorney comes into play.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, because we're all thinking, why didn't he get first degree murder?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  There was obvious premeditation.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  And because of that, I mean, 22 years to life in prison? Good behavior?

• 48:19Speaker 00

  He could be out well before our age.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Easily.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Oh, very easily.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  At sentencing, Jared said he had flashbacks and nightmares over what he did. He told the court that Paula was a great person who deserved a better son.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  No shit.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Exactly. If, if you were the judge, that, that's what you would have said.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Uh, thanks Captain Obvious for that, uh, for enlightening all of us with those words of wisdom. Towards the end of the case, the show New York homicide talks about Brandon, who's often not mentioned in sources. He's also a victim. While he received the inheritance, he lost both his mother and his brother because of Jared's selfish desire to access his inheritance early.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, his whole world changed. I mean, great, he's got his half of the 11 million, or maybe he ended up getting it all. I don't know.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know how it works. He probably got it all because I don't think you can get inheritance if you're the killer.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't think, I think you're right. But even with all that money, I mean, look, he doesn't have his mom anymore. Doesn't have his brother, which at one point I'm sure he felt like that was his, one of his best friends.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  And I, I bet you any amount of money that if asked, he would say, take the money back.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Give me my mom, give me my old life.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  At some point, I'll probably get some of that money years down the road and I can wait for it.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  That's how most people think, but not Jared. Right? He was, as you said, and I still think it's the best word, feeling entitled. This is what I deserve. This is what I should have. I don't have it, but here's a way how I can get it. But the way to get it isn't working hard. It's not going out and starting your own business. It's not starting your own thing. It's killing the person who probably loves you the most in the world and destroying your brother's life in the process. And you gotta think, how am I gonna get away with it? How am I even gonna be able to spend the money?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing, you know, the way that they orchestrated this was so shoddy, so, I mean, I think probably criminals at the, uh, in prison with him or embarrassed for him. They're like, what?

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Are you the guy that left the body with the legs sticking out of the trash can?

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you the one that left the car out with all, all the blood on the seats and the duct tape and, you know, what were you thinking?

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, it, it's a, it's a tough one. Because I think for most people listening, they just can't imagine, right? How somebody can come to that conclusion, make that decision. Yeah, this is the best course of action. I get it. It's a ton of money.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  $5 million, let's say, is a ton of money. There's, there's no way around it. But to get it, you have to kill your mother, destroy your brother, and risk spending most of your life in prison. And how is that worth it at all?

• 51:43Speaker 01

  I mean, here's, here's a thought. Your mom and dad were smart, hardworking. They found a way to go from basically zero to 11 million or whatever the final total was. Maybe try that out for a little bit. See what you're capable of before you just want to take the handout.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  And you know, there are a lot of people who do that. They work hard. They start their own stuff or, you know, they get with a great company and they work their way up.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Right? That's, that's what a lot of people do. But there are some people unwilling to do it. And they're always looking for that easy way.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  How do they get what they want without having to do the work?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  I want that lifestyle my mom and dad have.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  How do I get that right now?

• 52:29Speaker 00

  And I think that's where Jared was. But that's it for our episode on Paula Chin. We got a couple of voicemails. You want to check those out?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Let's hear them.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Hi, my name is Tim and I have just recently started.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  And I found you that episode about Robert Verdella. He was from my hometown of Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. And despite what other people say, he is actually buried in Oakwood Cemetery in his father's grave as well. I also grew up near the area where Jeffrey Dahmer was in Bath, Ohio. So something about Northeast Ohio, gentlemen, really brings out the weird. Oh, and also James Huberty from Canton, Ohio, who murdered a bunch of people at the San Ysidro McDonald's. I love your podcast. I just enjoy it and your facts are always straight on.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  And thank you so much for your time.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Thought he was gonna say, my name is, my name is Slim Shady.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I kinda had that running through my head as well. But yeah, we appreciate the voicemail. There is something about like Northeast Ohio.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Well, that's why we live in Southwest.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  It is. No, not that we don't have our share down here. We're actually probably getting ready to do a southwestern serial killer, Southwest Ohio serial killer here pretty soon. But we appreciate the nice comments very much.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  We do.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  Hey guys, this is Heather up in Vermont. I've called in a couple of times and, but I wanted to share a funny from when I first started listening to you. I didn't start at the beginning. I just jumped in on a random one that caught my attention when I was working. And I have to admit this now, because every time you make a joke about Gibby being in Mensa or this or that, I actually spent like two hours trying to Google him when we first started because I thought he actually was all of the things. And I know that is painfully dumb now, but I thought you might get a kick out of that. Anyway, have a great day. Bye.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  Well, I actually do get a kick out of it, but don't feel bad because a lot of people have thought that over the years. I've gotten a lot of emails.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  What are you saying?

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Wanting to know, you know, is Gibby really in Mensa?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Is Gibby really a Jason Bourne type individual?

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Is he, was he a Doogie Howser at the age of 10 or 11?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yes, it's all yes.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  It's all true, all true.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  By the way, where's our cheese from Vermont? Send us cheese. I want cheese.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  First of all, Vermont is not known for their cheese.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  What are they known for?

• 55:15Speaker 00

  That's Wisconsin.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  No, Vermont's got good cheese too.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  Do they?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  I thought Vermont is like maple syrup territory.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  They have that too. They have cheese. I'm Mensa. I know things.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Okay. I always think Wisconsin when I think cheese.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Wisconsin's got a lot of cheese.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  I mean, there are a lot of places that make cheese. Don't get me wrong, but you know, the Packers fans are known as cheese heads.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a little weird. I mean, that's great, guys.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  That's because they're from Wisconsin.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  All right, we appreciate the voicemail.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  We do.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  All right, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.