Nicole Lovell

In January 2016, 13-year-old Nicole Lovell vanished from her home in Christiansburg, Virginia, after apparently climbing out of her bedroom window for a secret late-night meeting. Nicole had endured serious health problems from infancy and struggled with bullying and loneliness, often turning to social media to connect with others. When investigators examined her online activity, they discovered she had been communicating for months with an older Virginia Tech student through the messaging app Kik. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Nicole Lovell. What began as a missing-person investigation quickly took a horrifying turn when Nicole’s body was discovered 90 miles from home in North Carolina. Digital records, GPS data, surveillance footage, and forensic evidence would ultimately reveal an elaborate plot involving two Virginia Tech students and raise disturbing questions about online predators, manipulation, and the dangers vulnerable children can face on the internet. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:05Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 544 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm doing good, man. How about you?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Having a great week.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  You know, fall weather, I love the fall. The only problem with fall is it quickly turns to winter. Not as big a fan of winter.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  And they keep predicting we're gonna have a bad one.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  That's what I hear.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  And I don't like the sound of that.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  I might have to get a snow blower.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would seriously be thinking about it.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Well, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout-outs. We had Vance.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Hey, Vince.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Did you think I should correct mine before you say, "Hey, Vince"? I said Vance for some... We had Vince.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Hey, Vince.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Lisa.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  What's going on, Lisa?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Chris Derry.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Well, hey, Chris. Oh, Derry, like in the balloon guy.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  The balloon guy?

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, in the sewer, the red balloons.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  You mean the clown?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  The clown, yeah.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Okay, why are you calling him the balloon guy? That's the most important thing about him?

• 2:13Speaker 02

  What's the...

• 2:14Speaker 01

  The balloons?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  What's his name?

• 2:16Speaker 01

  I don't know. I forget what his name is, but the show is it.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I forget what his exact name is.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's in Derry, right?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Derry, Maine? Yeah, I think so.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Chris is like, "My name says Chris Derry, dudes."

• 2:30Speaker 01

  It has nothing to do with that.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  We had Lisa Marie.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  What's going on, Lisa?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Luis Calvillo.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Ah, Calvillo.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Sarah Hyde jumped out of her highest level.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Thanks, Sarah.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  And last but not least, Jessica Blair.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  The Jessica Blair, by the way.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Angela Perpingan.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Perpingan.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  So we appreciate all the support, new support, continued support. You just like to say that last name.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  I did, Perpingan.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Weird emphasis, but hey, let's go with it. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Trish Haynes. She disappeared under mysterious circumstances after traveling from Florida to New Hampshire in 2018 to appear in court. And this is one of those cases, Gibbs, where it is unsolved, but there is a lot of speculation, both in the community and online, about who might have been involved in her death.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there's definitely some interesting twist.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so make sure you check that out. And then on next Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about James Robertson, a Florida inmate who was executed just earlier this month, right, in October, nearly two decades after killing his cellmate because he wanted to get the death penalty.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  And I'm actually surprised this doesn't happen more often.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I am too, but it is a kind of a very intriguing case.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  It is.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  I am.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  We're talking about Nicole Lovell, 13-year-old Nicole Lovell, when missing from her home in Virginia on January 30th, 2016. Investigators analyzing her phone activity discovered that for months, she had been messaging with an 18-year-old freshman at Virginia Tech, who immediately became the prime suspect. And how could this person, right, not become the prime suspect? Number one, you're an 18-year-old messaging with a 13-year-old.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, what the heck are you doing?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  And then, you know, what are the messages about, right? We'll get into some of that. But then this person goes missing, "Yeah, police are gonna wanna talk to you, they're going to be looking into you." Nicole Madison Lovell was born on May 3rd, 2002. She lived in Christiansburg, Virginia, and was a middle school student at the time of her death.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  13.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  13 years old. According to 48 Hours, Nicole was born with a damaged liver and needed a transplant before her first birthday. She had to take anti-rejection medication every day to prevent organ failure.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  That would be rough.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  It would be, especially, you know, you have a child, that baby's not even a year old and needs a transplant, a liver transplant. Man, as a parent, you would be worried sick. And then even after that, right, if she's gotta take this medication every day just to prevent organ failure, that's gotta be on your mind as well.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  She also underwent a tracheotomy. Her illness and treatment left her with scars on her stomach and neck. And sadly, Nicole was bullied in school because of her scars.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Kids are assholes.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Well, you and I have talked about it. I don't know if it's as bad today, and I hope it's not. I don't think it is because of all the anti-bullying campaigns that have been started that are out there. But when you and I were in, you know, elementary school, middle school, even high school, there was a lot of bullying.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  There was.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, I was on the receiving end of some of it, not a lot of it. I was a fairly quote-unquote "normal" kid. I hate to say that.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  But I know there were a lot of kids who were looked at as different. They got picked on a lot.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Hate seeing that, you know?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, you know, when you're young, when you're that age, I would love to have thought that I would have stood up for them. Sadly, I didn't. I didn't participate in it. I was just keeping my head low.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't wanna be the target, so I wasn't gonna stick my neck out. Now, if I could make myself go back and do it, I'd do it differently.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, hindsight, sure.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think there's a lot of kids that go along with it just because they don't wanna be a target. So they're, "Go ahead and laugh," or...

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Join in, maybe.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Because it's better to do that than not do that and be the next, you know, target.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Or they're trying to fit in.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Trying to fit in.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  I think that that could be a big part of it as well.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  According to 48 Hours, Nicole's social media posts revealed that she was lonely, experienced suicidal thoughts, and thought no one cared about her. And that's, unfortunately, you know, some of the things that bullying can do.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  It really can. It makes me sad thinking about that, right, that anybody has to feel like that.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Nicole's mother, Tammy Weeks, also said that Nicole had a difficult relationship with her father, David, who spent time in prison for a drug charge. David left Tammy weeks before Nicole was born, and they were never married. According to Tammy, she wanted his attention. She wanted his love. David Lovell told 48 Hours, "I have regrets that I wasn't there. You know, what did I do wrong? Why wasn't I there for her more often?" Nicole went missing on January 27th, 2016. Investigators believe she snuck out of her bedroom window. Her mother, Tammy, discovered she was missing when she went to the bedroom and found a

• 8:39Speaker 01

  nightstand pushed up against the door and the window open. She called Nicole's friends and drove to the police station. Okay, that would be frightening. It's one thing to open up the door and not see your daughter when you think she's asleep. It's the other thing to try to open the door and realize that there's a nightstand pushed up against it and the window is left open.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're being kept out. They're trying to keep you out.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Who, though?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Right?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is it your daughter because she left out the window? Or was it someone else who took your daughter and left out the window? Either way, you're scared.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to be. And I think initially, you would probably think, "Somebody had to take her, because why would my daughter ever wanna leave me?"

• 9:30Speaker 01

  After Tammy reported Nicole missing, a neighborhood mother called Tammy and said that Nicole had been playing with her daughters and mentioned she was going on a date. Tammy feared Nicole left to see someone she met online. Tammy also knew that Nicole would not leave home for an extended time without her daily medication. And it was important, right? We talked about it. She needed this medication to prevent organ failure after her transplant. Investigators found usernames and passwords to Nicole's accounts on her bedroom wall. FBI computer forensic experts traced Nicole's account information and established that

• 10:13Speaker 01

  she used Kik, a messaging app. Tammy told 48 Hours that when she saw Nicole had the Kik app, she made her delete it. But she believed Nicole reinstalled it.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  What? A kid doesn't listen to you and goes against your wishes?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, let's face it, that's what kids do, right? It's a, it's a constant battle over certain things, especially with the proliferation of social media. You know, that constant battle of how much time should kids be allowed to spend on their phones? But let's face it, keeping them off of him, it's very tough.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Uh, almost difficult, I mean, almost impossible.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Almost impossible. Right? I mean, nobody talks on the phone anymore. Everything's messages or comments on social media. The FBI put in an emergency disclosure request to Kik and discovered that in the last two days before she disappeared, Nicole was messaging a person with the username Dr. Tombstone. The IP address was traced to 18-year-old David Eisenhower. A freshman engineering student at Virginia Tech, David was described as an ambitious and focused student. He was a high school track star who were in straight A's. In high school, he was named Boys Indoor Track Performer of the Year, and he chose

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Virginia Tech to pursue engineering while still competing in track.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  So based on that, I mean, he sounds like a overachiever.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, straight A student, high school track star, you know, he's going into engineering, which is not the easiest thing in the world, right? That's a, a tough field.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  The workload is, is gonna be tough.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Virginia Tech's a really good school.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  On January 30th, 2016, David was picked up for questioning. David's roommate, Jeremy Bastio, told 48 Hours that David's behavior the night Nicole went missing was strange. According to Jeremy, David put on boots. Even though it wasn't raining hard, he returned at 2:00 AM. David normally kept a knife on his desk, but that knife was gone when the police showed up to their dorm room on January 30th.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Okay, some suspicious activity.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Well, you know, think of dorm life. You're living with at least one person, if not more, sometimes in the same room, right? You're sleeping, this guy's got a knife on his desk. I assume you would have had multiple knives all around the dorm room. It'd be like a Dwight in the office situation. You're just hiding, throwing stars and knives and things all, all over the place.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  It's preparation.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  But how suspicious is this that the roommate notices, okay, this knife is always there, and suddenly it's gone when the police show up? During his interview with the police, David admitted that he recently encountered Nicole on an anonymous chat app, and then they moved over to Kik. He said, as quoted by 48 Hours, she's like, hey, do you want to message me on an app called Kik? And I'm like, sure, whatever. He claimed he met Nicole in person just once on the night she went missing. He went to meet her, saw how young she was, and left. David said, I see, like, she's like 11.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And I go, oh no, I gotta get out of here, gotta get out of here, gotta get out of here.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Well, if that's how it went down, good for him, right? I mean, maybe she portrayed herself as being older during their conversations.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  I think that's what he's trying to relay, right? I didn't know how old she was. When I finally did see her in person, I was like, oh my gosh, she is very young, and I just left. But Nicole's Kik account records discredited David's statements. It showed that they had been chatting on Kik for months, had met in person at least once before, and most likely had sex.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Oh, see, so not a great guy after all.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Well, but is it surprising to you that this guy, when questioned by police, is going to try to spin a story, right? Is going to downplay his involvement? He's a smart kid.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  He knows how much trouble he could get into for meeting this 13-year-old girl, and especially for having any sexual contact with this 13-year-old girl. David volunteered that he purchased a new snow shovel and said, would it help to mention, I had someone with me when I bought the shovel for snow purposes? Her name is Natalie Keepers. Okay, uh, I don't know what you make of that. Would it help to mention, I had someone with me when I bought this snow shovel? Is he trying to set up his alibi?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Sounds like it.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Also, why does a freshman in college need a snow shovel?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Maybe he's out there trying to make some money.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Well, I guess that could be a possibility. I mean, you don't have to shovel the snow at the dorm, right? They have somebody who does that. Now, if we're talking something to maybe get it off your car, that would be one thing, but 19-year-old Natalie Keepers was also a freshman engineering student at Virginia Tech. She wanted to follow in her father's footsteps and work for NASA. She had interned at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, led science experiments at her church's Bible school, and hoped to have a career in aerospace or ocean engineering.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Wouldn't those be some tough shoes to, to fill, to follow?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, your dad worked at NASA, but no doubt she was setting her sights high, right? Her goals high. In her interview, Natalie detailed a shocking plot to kill Nicole. She claimed that David feared Nicole was about to expose their inappropriate relationship, and he asked for help brainstorming ways to kill her. On the day of her disappearance, they bought the shovel, went out to get food, and then David dropped her off at her dorm. He had pre-arranged a date with Nicole. So right away, my first thought is, it seemed to me that David thought bringing up Natalie was going to be good for him, right?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Like, she was going to be his alibi, or she was going to help clear him in some way. Obviously, that's the exact opposite of what happened. She throws him under the bus immediately.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, she says, here, here's some things you need to know.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  But here again, if you're planning on killing someone, why are you brainstorming with other people? And how do you not believe that that's going to come back and bite you at some point in time?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it seems like it always does.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Well, it does, because the more people who know about it, the more people, you know, who can rat you out. According to Natalie, David picked Nicole up, drove her to the woods, and stabbed her to death. The next day, they went to Walmart for cleaning supplies and disposed of the body. Natalie claimed her body was on the road by David's grandparents' house. And on January 30th, Nicole's body was found 90 miles from home, just over the state line in North Carolina. She was found naked and her body was concealed off a rope. She suffered 14 stab wounds, including a lethal wound to her neck. And this is a horrible situation.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  It is.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  We are talking about a young 13-year-old girl. So first off, shame on this guy for, you know, having inappropriate conversations with a 13-year-old, instigating any type of sexual contact with her.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Grooming her, really.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Grooming her, yeah, you're right about that. And then ultimately making the decision that he has to kill her because he's afraid she's gonna reveal what they have been up to. And I don't blame her at all. She's 13 years old. Does she know right from wrong? It's tough with a 13-year-old.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Now, she's, she's gonna be very influenced.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's gonna be naive, and she probably thinks, oh, you know, this is an older guy. But he's 18 years old. 100% gives, he knows this is wrong.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  A straight A student, there's no doubt in my mind.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he knows what he was doing was not okay.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  David Eisenhower was charged with first-degree murder, abduction, and concealing a body. Natalie was charged with improper disposal of a dead body and accessory after the fact. The Blacksburg Police said in a statement, based on the evidence collected to date, investigators have determined that Eisenhower and Nicole were acquainted prior to her disappearance. Eisenhower used his relationship to his advantage to abduct the 13-year-old and then kill her. Keepers helped dispose of Nicole's body. And this whole thing is shocking, right?

• 20:14Speaker 01

  The murder of a 13-year-old girl by an 18-year-old, you know, freshman college student, but add in this female freshman college student making the decision to participate in the disposal of the body and the cover-up of the murder. Why?

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know why she's doing it, unless maybe there's some type of attraction that she has towards him.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  And maybe she thinks by helping him out, one day they can get together. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

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• 21:54Speaker 01

  Investigators looked deeper into David's online activity and were led to Bryce Dustin, David's online gaming friend of six years. David went to Bryce frequently about girl problems. He spoke about a problem with one particular girl, whom Bryce later came to believe was Nicole. David told Bryce that he found out the girl was underage and she wanted to be with him and she was going to expose him if he wouldn't be with her. David was worried about being outed. Bryce offered David some advice, which he shared with 48 Hours. He said, "If she wants to be your girlfriend, you know, let her, but don't be the greatest boyfriend. Just like, don't text her, just ignore her, she'll go away."

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Oh, the old, "Just go along with it. Be a jerk, a piece of shit." And she'd be like, "Yeah, I don't want to be with this guy. I'll break up with him."

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not sure it's the greatest advice. I'm not sure it's the worst ever, but certainly, maybe not the greatest. But let's step back and dissect this a little bit, right? Why was David so worried about being outed? And my thought, Gibbs, is that he would only be worried if he had gone to a place that he knew was illegal, right? That he shouldn't have gone. Because if it was simply a case of him talking to a girl online that he thought was 18 or older and then later found out that she was younger, what trouble would he get into?

• 23:30Speaker 02

  None.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  I mean, certainly not to the point where you would feel like you needed to kill someone.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  No, maybe you feel embarrassed a little bit.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  But outside of that, unless you took it to one of those other levels you were just talking about.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Or you knew she was underage.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Or you knew she was underage and you were trying to groom her.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yes, and that's my thinking completely. He's making it seem like they had been talking and then he all of a sudden, right? Found out that she was underage. On July 26, 2016, David was indicted for kidnapping, first degree murder, and concealing a body. Natalie was indicted for accessory before the fact and concealment. An accessory before the fact is interesting. You often hear of it as accessory after the fact. But there's no doubt she was involved in the discussions prior to the murder happening.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Testimony in David's murder trial began on February 6, 2018. Prosecutor Mary Pettit told the jury that David killed Nicole because he feared his inappropriate relationship with her would be exposed. They had communicated online for months and met in person before. Natalie Keepers, David's accomplice, told the police that David was worried Nicole could be pregnant. David told Natalie he may have had sex with Nicole at a party, but couldn't remember because he blacked out and later woke up in a ditch. You believe in that one?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  I'm not believing that one.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Me neither. But maybe it's because I just don't believe what this guy, you know, is saying to a bunch of different people.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  But when you meet her at this party, are you not going, "Huh, she doesn't look old enough"?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm probably, very, very hard to mistake a 13-year-old for an 18, 19, 20-year-old. I get it, some people look older than what they are.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, with makeup and all that, yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  But the difference between 13 years old and 18, 19 is pretty stark.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  And now we add in this idea that David thought that Nicole was pregnant. And that takes it up to a completely different level for why he might have been worried that she was going to out him. You cannot get past the fact that you had some sexual contact if this girl is pregnant with your baby.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, because at that point, it's sexual assault.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's going to be sexual assault, but you can't explain it away. You can't say, "No, we didn't have any type of contact." There can be no he said, she said. There's only proof, right? At that point in time. David and Natalie plotted to kill Nicole for nearly a month. They brainstormed ideas about the best way to commit murder. David and Natalie planned to kill Nicole somewhere out of the way. They scouted locations and settled on a remote stretch of road 15 miles from campus. Craig Creek Road cuts into the thick woods that form the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in a remote area of rural Virginia

• 27:10Speaker 01

  that feels a world apart from the teeming university. Virginia Tech students are known to camp and party in the area. And man, Gibbs, I gotta go back because we know that Natalie was an accessory before the fact. But now we find out that they had been plotting this murder together for nearly a month.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  I mean, Natalie's really involved.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Very involved. And I still want an answer to the question, "What? Were these lifelong friends? Were these people who just met in engineering school as freshmen? And somehow got to the point where she was willing to help this guy plan a murder? Or like you said, was she in love with him?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And she was doing it for, you know, reasons along that line? After midnight on January 27, 2016, Nicole climbed out of her window to meet David for a secret date. David lured Nicole out of her home and took her to the remote spot where she was killed. He stabbed Nicole 14 times and cut her throat. Natalie helped load the body into the car and dispose of the body in North Carolina.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  I mean, to me, Natalie is just as guilty.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, she is involved in every step of this, right? From the planning to she's there helping load the body into the car.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Which means that she might have been able to stop it and chose not to.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think she could have stopped it, right? Anywhere along the path, she could have stopped it by just going to police.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  And saying, "Hey, this guy I know came to me and said that he wants to murder this 13-year-old girl."

• 29:00Speaker 02

  And how brutal, 14 stab wounds, sliced, you know, cut her neck. She's just 13.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's hard to think about. It really is. Prosecutors noted that David's DNA was found under Nicole's fingernails and her blood was found in the trunk of his car. David's defense tried to shift blame to Natalie Keepers. Defense attorney John Lichtenstein said Natalie was fascinated with knives and deeply motivated to kill Nicole. They argued that the evidence would show someone else was at the scene, although Nicole insisted she wasn't present for the murder. I don't know, if she wasn't present for the murder, what did she do? Drive out there afterward and help load the body?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, doesn't make sense, does it?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, she could have done that. Obviously, she had to have known the exact location or he had to have called her. The defense said the evidence would show someone else was at the scene. The defense argued that Natalie killed Nicole and a bloody handprint on the shovel proved it. According to the defense, David wanted to wipe his cell history clean. But Natalie wanted to talk about killing Nicole. She was exhilarated and excited when she discussed killing Nicole with David. According to attorney John Lichtenstein, it was Natalie Keepers who said she wanted a more permanent solution. Nicole's mother, Tammy Weeks, was the first witness at trial.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  She testified about how she discovered her daughter was missing on January 27, 2016. Law enforcement testified about the forensic evidence in the case, including a bloodstained shovel and a large bloodstain inside the trunk of David's car. Police also found a piece of paper with Nicole's address on it in David's dorm. Detective Deana Jones from the Blacksburg PD analyzed spreadsheets of data from David's GPS. The prosecution also had a Walmart receipt matching the time from GPS records. David purchased a shovel and aerosol from Walmart. The GPS showed movement to a cookout restaurant in Blacksburg,

• 31:19Speaker 01

  then cut off at Craig Creek Road. It showed movement again on Fairfax Road where Natalie lived. The GPS moved through Blacksburg, again to Christiansburg, and around to the Virginia Tech campus. On January 27, the GPS marked points on Craig Creek Road, then back to Weithville, then to the Walmart. The prosecution presented photos of Natalie and David walking through the Walmart in Christiansburg on January 26 and purchasing and leaving with a shovel. So I think, you know, the prosecution has some, you know, fairly good evidence.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  I think so, too.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  They have proof that the two of them together bought this shovel, a shovel which later has Natalie's blood on it, right? There's this big bloodstain from her in David's trunk. Her address is written on a piece of paper in his dorm room. And obviously they have the, the logs, right? The text logs, the chat logs. They have his GPS movements. It's not looking good.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I feel like he's pretty much screwed.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  But what is the defense trying to do? They're not saying that David didn't do some of these things. What they're trying to do first and foremost is say that it wasn't David who killed Nicole.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  It was Natalie.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  David wasn't out there alone and he didn't do the worst of the deed.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  An officer from the Virginia Tech Police Department testified that he searched an overflow parking lot on campus in connection to the missing persons search. He looked in a dumpster and saw a blue plastic glove with yellow residue on it. He also looked through a blue dumpster with a plastic Walmart bag and a bleach bottle inside. And I don't know what you would make of those things, right? Without any context to go with it. Now, obviously down the road later on, those things might mean something different.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you can remember that.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  But at the time, okay, a blue plastic glove, a, a plastic Walmart bag with a, a bottle of bleach in it. I mean, that could be anything from anyone, could have nothing to do with anything.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  That could be my trash can right there.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. A Blacksburg officer testified that he collected evidence that officers had previously pulled from a dumpster on the Virginia Tech campus. Those items included a wad of napkins, a cleaning wipe with a red stain, two rubber kitchen dish washing gloves and a blue latex glove. The jury also heard that a green handled knife was found in a hole on the property at the Virginia Tech Vet School pump. A forensic science supervisor testified that David's DNA could not be ruled out from clippings of Nicole's nails. DNA collected from the tire, trunk and backseat of David's car,

• 34:26Speaker 01

  as well as a container of cleaning wipes and a shovel belonged to Nicole. There was blood on all of these items. The blood on the cleaning gloves, including the ones collected at Virginia Tech, also turned out to belong to Nicole.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Well, this is not going to be good for David or Natalie.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  No, they're in it together, but to what degree, right? What role did each of them play? And I think the defense is wise enough to know they can't get out from under all of this. The best they can do is shift the majority of the blame onto Natalie. A forensic scientist testified that he found seven latent prints on a container of cleaning wipes. Five out of the seven belonged to David. Two prints were of poor quality. There were three prints on a shovel, two belonging to Natalie. The third print was not identifiable. Four of Natalie's prints were also found on a bleach bottle, on the Walmart bag found in the Virginia Tech dumpster.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Three prints were found and they all belonged to Natalie. On the fourth day of the trial, David pleaded no contest to first degree murder, abduction and concealing a body. On June 26, 2018, David Eisenhower was sentenced to 50 years in prison and 25 years probation.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  It's a healthy amount.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  It is. Now, we don't know at what point he would be up for parole, but you think about it, you know, an 18 year old or however old he is at the time of sentencing, to think you could possibly spend the next 50 years of your life in prison.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  He was 18 when the crime was committed. Say by the time he goes off, yeah, he'd be almost 70 years old, right?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, if he spent the whole time.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  But by entering a no contest plea, David waived his right to an appeal. And that can sometimes be a big thing, right? Not only to the prosecution, but to the victim's family as well. We've heard for years how tough those appeals can be on the family. Not to mention all the different, you know, hearings and, and all of that that they have to show up to. So with this, you, you get rid of all that.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Well, and you're going to tie him up in prison for a long time.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 37:01Speaker 00

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• 37:32Speaker 01

  At the sentencing hearing, Nicole's parents described the effect their daughter's murder had on them. David Lovell said he was diagnosed with severe depression and PTSD. Tammy Weeks Dougie said she sees a grief counselor and has trouble sleeping. She celebrated what would have been Nicole's 16th birthday at her graveside. Man, you feel horrible for them. It can't be easy for anyone.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  To lose a child, but to lose one in this way, right? This is not an illness that suddenly springs up and, and claims a life. That would be tough enough. This is another human being making the decision to kill your 13 year old child. Not just one, two human beings, right? The defense called two teachers and a former classmate from Yakima, Washington, where David lived before his family moved to Columbia, Maryland. Both teachers said David was a smart and kind student, but appeared to have trouble following social cues. His 10th grade English teacher said David needed clear rules to be successful

• 38:44Speaker 01

  and would follow someone off a cliff if they convinced him it was the right thing to do. Two mental health professionals testified that Natalie orchestrated the crimes and David wouldn't have wanted to kill Nicole without her influence. Psychiatrist David Scheider, who didn't speak in person with either defendant, said David showed no signs of psychopathy, but he believed Natalie is a psychopath. He said in court, is quoted by news outlet W S L S, "I think Keepers was the mastermind. I think she's the driver of the process. I think she found someone that she can manipulate."

• 39:28Speaker 01

  So this is kind of interesting from an individual who didn't speak to either one of these people.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Right. Just an observation?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Just observation, I guess, from maybe the trial. Clinical neuropsychologist Joette James, who had three sessions with David, testified that David has autism spectrum disorder. She believed Natalie had an ability to influence him. Although David has an IQ of 123, he scored low on tests for emotional intelligence.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  That can happen.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  It definitely can. But what's interesting here, Gibbs, to me is that you have a number of people who are saying, number one, David is easily influenced. And number two, that Natalie had the ability, and for some people saying did, influence him to kill Nicole. On cross-examination, prosecutor Patrick Jensen noted that David wasn't influenced by law enforcement, who interviewed him immediately after his arrest. And he lied to them multiple times. David also spoke at sentencing, saying,

• 40:42Speaker 01

  "I'm sorry for the pain my actions have caused Nicole Lovell and her family. It is my deepest regret and I'm aware my actions have consequences. Nothing can ever undo what has been done. And for that, I'm deeply, sincerely and forever sorry."

• 41:00Speaker 02

  I always find it strange when they say my actions, instead of just saying what it was. I'm sorry that I killed your daughter or I'm sorry that I... Was part of the murder of your daughter. I mean, I just feel like when you say, I'm sorry for my actions. Are you trying to limit what you actually did?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Or are you trying to just encompass everything? Because it would hard, it would be hard to list everything out.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  So by saying my actions, you're taking everything into account. I, I don't know. I don't know. I think what's most important here for me is that you're the prosecutor saying, all right, everybody is saying David was easily influenced. But he obviously wasn't influenced by law enforcement. He didn't go along with what they said. In fact, he argued with them, he lied to them multiple times. And then at sentencing, he's basically coming out and saying, yeah, I did this and I'm sorry for it. He's not saying, I'm sorry for what Natalie did.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  He's not saying, I'm sorry for what Natalie made me do. On August 14th, 2018, Natalie Keepers pleaded guilty to concealing Nicole's body. Natalie's trial for accessory before the fact began on September 18th, 2018. Prosecutors argued that Natalie was closely involved in the planning of the murder. She helped him buy a shovel, helped him pick out a spot to commit the murder, and texted him about their plan. The defense argued that Natalie believed the talk about murder was just a fantasy. A combination of mental disorders made her prone to being easily coerced and manipulated to please other people. The jury watched several videos of Natalie's interviews.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  In one video, Natalie gave a detailed account of how David stabbed Nicole to death. She said, as quoted by WHSV3, "He wanted me there to help. He wanted me to help kill her." However, David drove her to Virginia Tech before the killing and she went to her dorm. She was not present for the stab. This is all according to her, obviously.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  She also told police that she and David talked about different ways to kill Nicole. She said, "He was bouncing so many ideas off my head, I couldn't keep track of them all." He was the one who officially developed the plan. Natalie also described David's messages to her on the Kik app. According to Natalie, yeah, he would say, "Off her. Kill the bitch, kill her." Natalie said about David, "There was no emotion. He became a sociopath. He thought of me as his sociopath in training, I guess."

• 43:48Speaker 02

  So she's holding to her guns. I wasn't there. I didn't kill her. I didn't plan this.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  And all the stuff we did talk about, I thought that was all just kind of fantasy talk, right? I didn't think he was really gonna do it. Now, let's keep in mind, she's fighting for her freedom as well. Not as serious of charges as what David faced, but you know, still serious charges. The defense called forensic neuropsychologist Dr. Jonathan Mack as their first witness. Mack was allowed to present his diagnosis of Natalie. But the effects of the diagnosis had to be presented to the jury in a way that pertained individuals with those disorders. Mack examined Natalie a couple of months after her arrest,

• 44:37Speaker 01

  interviewed her for several hours, and performed multiple tests. According to Mack, Natalie has six types of mental disorders. Depersonalization, derealization disorder, which are classified as dissociative disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder, borderline personality disorder, dependent and schizotypal disorder, panic disorder, and persistent depressive disorder.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Well, that's a lot.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  That's a lot going on. Some of those I've heard of, some of those I haven't. According to Mack, a person with borderline personality disorder would have extreme impairment in their sense of self and would be emotionally numb. This diagnosis may cause an individual to fight to feel anything, including self-mutilation. These individuals often make threats to kill themselves, but do not follow through with the act. Dependent personality disorder may cause individuals to be overly dependent on other people, and they could be easily manipulated. People with borderline personality and schizotypal disorder shift between fantasy and reality.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  A person with all of these diagnoses together could be easily coerced and manipulated to please other people or to earn others' love while having difficulty discerning what is real.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  And this is what the defense really wants to get in front of the jury?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a professional who is helping to bolster and at the same time, right, mitigate. The final defense witness was 18-year-old Bailey Brown. She testified that she met David Eisenhower in an online chatroom. From December 2015 to January 2016, they communicated through the Kik app. David told her about his plans to kill a girl. Now, he never mentioned Natalie Keepers. However, he told her he was discussing his plans with a friend who had, quote, "military knowledge." He never shared the friend's name or gender.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Again, I guess, you know, a lot of people chat with other people online. But why are you telling someone you meet online that you're planning to kill someone?

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if you actually plan on doing this, why would you ever want to put it out there like that?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  In closing arguments, Commonwealth attorney Patrick Jensen said that Natalie helped David plan the murder. Her statements to police were reliable because they were corroborated by the physical evidence. Surveillance photos of David and Natalie buying a shovel and the GPS coordinates showing her helping David pick out a spot to commit murder. The texts between Natalie and David prove she aided in the plot to kill. The defense urged the jury to focus on reasonable doubt. Defense attorney Chris Olin read statements from Natalie's initial interrogation. Natalie said she didn't think David would actually kill that girl, and she was just playing along with his fantasy.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Because Natalie didn't know Nicole, she had no motive to kill her. Natalie loved being part of the plan, not because it was a plan to murder, but because it was a plan to be close to David. Olin argued that playing along was not the same as shared intent. And it's a fascinating argument, and it does kind of go back to a theory that you had, that possibly she was either in love with David or wanted to be with him, wanted to be closer to him, and that's maybe why she did what she did.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  But here's the one problem I have with it, Gibbs. He said, you know, playing along is not the same as shared intent. And I get that, but at a certain point, doesn't this have to go to an extent that is much more than just, quote, "playing along"? You're buying the shovel. You're picking out a spot. This is not role play.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  At a certain point. And she had to have known that.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, she had to know it's real, it's gonna happen, and I better do something about it, or otherwise I'm going to be a part of it.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  On September 20th, 2018, Natalie Keeper was found guilty of being accessory before the fact of first degree murder. The following day, the jury recommended 40 years in prison. And on November 27th, 2018, Natalie Keepers was sentenced to 45 years in prison. She received 40 years for accessory before the fact and five years for concealing a body. The five years were suspended, and she'll spend 10 years on probation after being released.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  I mean, she only got 10 years less than David.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  That's what I thought. Now, I'm not saying what she did was right in any way, but it did seem like there was more than 10 years worth of difference in what they were charged with and convicted of. He was convicted of first degree murder and only got 10 years more than she did. But there's no doubt she played a big role in it.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Cause he, he got 55 or he get 50?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I think he got 50 with 25 years of parole.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Okay, and she got 45 with 10 years of parole.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And five years suspended.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Five years suspended.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  So really, she got 40.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  I don't know, I just thought there would have been a bigger chasm.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  I would have thought so too.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Between the two. And I'd argue that he easily could have got life. Maybe life with parole or maybe life without parole. It was first degree murder.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  And maybe that's why he did the deal.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, you know, something that I'm glad you brought up. The plea in that instance probably helped him quite a bit. Natalie said at her sentencing is quoted by 48 hours. "I wish I could have stopped him. I never intended for this to happen." But could she not have stopped him, right? During that month of planning, could she not have called the police? Could she not have alerted someone?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  When you say, "I didn't plan this to happen," what did you think was gonna happen?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Well, fantasy role playing, according to her.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  If you buy that, but I don't. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Nicole Lovell didn't have an easy childhood. We talked about it, not because of a bad family life per se. She had, you know, medical issues. She went through a lot and her life was tragically cut short at just 13 years old. David Eisenhower engaged in an inappropriate online and in-person relationship with Nicole. He lured her from her home and murdered her, then disposed of her body with the help of his accomplice Natalie Keepers to avoid exposing the relationship. Nicole's

• 51:57Speaker 01

  case highlights the dangers of the internet and messaging apps for children and young teens. And I definitely think it does that. It shines a spotlight on just exactly how bad things can go.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Well, this is about as bad as it can get.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you really know who you're talking to online? And especially if you're deciding to meet up with people and in Natalie's case, you know, she was only 13, she's meeting up with an 18-year-old. Again, I don't want to blame her in any way. I blame David because he was the one who should have known better and should have known this was something that should not happen.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  But then, what? He got scared because he knew all those things he had done were wrong and he made the decision that he was going to kill Nicole to make sure that she never was able to out him.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Yes, because that would have not been good for him.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  No, it wouldn't have been.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Now, you could argue that if he didn't do all this and she did out him, maybe he would have received, what, 10 years?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I have no idea what the sentence would have been.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  But it would have been a fraction of what he got.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wouldn't have been anywhere close to 50 years. But then also, what fascinated me about this case was that this Natalie Keepers kind of just goes along with all this.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And is an integral part in the planning and caring of out of everything.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  I think it was said at one point, she might've been excited about it.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's a shocker. No doubt about it. But that's it for our episode on Nicole Lovell. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Let's hear it.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Hello, my name is Laura. I'm calling from the grooming cottage in Washington, New Jersey. I just have to say that I grew up in Cranford, New Jersey, and my mom is all from the area her whole life. I had her listen to the John List story and because growing up in the area, knowing the story from when it happened, she was blown away by the amount of details and facts that she never heard of or knew. And she was very impressed. And we're from Cranford, which is next town over from Westfield. And I was very impressed. Thank you so much. Bye.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Well, thank you very much for the voicemail. And that means a lot to us. You know, we do strive hard to get as many details in as we can and be right as much as we can.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  It's not always easy. No, you can't always accomplish it, but you can do your best. But those types of voicemails obviously make us feel good. Appreciate it very much. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  And Gibby.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.