Michelle Kinney

In July 2018, 53-year-old Michelle Kinney was living alone in Dubuque, Iowa. Known for her kindness and willingness to help people struggling, Michelle often opened her home to strangers who needed a place to stay. When concerned neighbors found her brutally murdered inside her apartment, investigators faced a large pool of potential suspects. A break came when detectives reviewed city traffic cameras and spotted Michelle walking home with a stranger carrying her groceries. The man entered her apartment with her and was later seen leaving alone. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Michelle Kinney. Her killer was already in jail on unrelated charges when detectives questioned him, and after initially denying involvement, he confessed to attacking Michelle in a rage, stabbing her repeatedly with a knife and fork before stealing money and leaving in her clothing because his own was covered in blood. Investigators soon learned the killer had a disturbing history of violence against women and had failed to report to probation just months before Michelle’s murder. The case left Michelle’s family devastated, but they continue to honor the generous, outgoing woman who spent her life helping others. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 537 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm doing good. You?

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Always great. I am always great, man.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  You're just good. I'm great. That's just life. That's just how.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Nobody likes somebody that's always great.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  I, I love my life.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  They're like, screw you, man. No, that's good.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. You ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? We're talking about Michelle Kenny. 53-year-old Michelle Kenny was a kind woman who was known to take people in when they were down on their luck. When concerned neighbors found her stabbed to death inside her apartment, investigators utilized city traffic camera footage in the surrounding area to identify the suspect, who was another stranger. Michelle was trying to help. You know what they say? No good deed goes unpunished. I've never quite understood that saying or where that comes from.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  But here's this woman who was known to help people who were struggling. And one of the people that she was trying to help, you know, ends up killing her. But these cases fascinate me when you talk about camera footage, right? We've got a lot of camera footage nowadays, and some of it's very controversial, the flock cameras and some of those. But camera footage does help solve a lot of crimes. Michelle Kenny was born on August 25, 1964, in DeWitt, Iowa. She grew up with four siblings on a farm in the Midwest. She remained close with her sisters throughout her life. Michelle worked as a waitress for many years. She had two sons and four grandchildren.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Well, she's got a lot of kiddos.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Running around.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  I'm still waiting for my first.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Grandchild. I am also 53 years old. And I, I think I'm going to be waiting.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if they're really in a big hurry.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Nope. I don't think they're ready. They've said as much.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  They're probably just still in practice mode.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't want to think about that, but I appreciate you throwing that in my head. Michelle's obituary states that she was a comedian who made everyone laugh and always put everyone's needs before her own. She was a, a social butterfly and was very devoted to her faith. And I'll tell you, part of that sounds like my mom.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  My mom has always been that person who puts everyone else's needs before her own. She did it when I was a kid. She would buy me new clothes for school and stuff. And she wouldn't have enough money for her, so she'd just wear the same stuff she always had. And she does it now. She just, she looks out for everybody else and herself lasts.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's a sweetheart, man. She is. A lot of times she'll come over here and bring you soup.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  You know? And then she'll text me and say, I put the, the bigger part of the soup, the bigger pot.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  In your.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  In my, yeah. So, you know, just wanted you to know. I'm like, oh, man, you're the best.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  She does like you. Michelle's sister Robbie Haas described Michelle as kind, sweet, and an old soul with a childlike spirit. Michelle's favorite time of year was Halloween because she loved to dress up. She also loved doing crafts, and her favorite tool was a glue gun. She was known for wearing blinged-out clothing to match her personality.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Now, that sounds like you back in the day when you went to the office, coming in all blinged out with this clothing.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, with the fake, with the rhinestones.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that little gadget thing you use.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  What was that thing called?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  What was it?

• 4:57Speaker 00

  The Dazzler.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, your bedazzler that you had.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  I like to bedazzle my jean jacket.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Sometimes he calls in the office. While we were sitting there doing our review, you were sitting there bedazzling us, you know?

• 5:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I did not care about you at all. At the time of her death, Michelle was living alone in an apartment on Iowa Street in Dubuque. At 1:45 AM on July 23, 2018, the Dubuque Police Department responded to a report of a deceased individual in an apartment. Michelle was found by three friends slash neighbors who stopped to visit her in the early hours of July 23. One of her neighbors noticed that her door was open. So she went inside and found Michelle dead on the kitchen floor. She said in the 911 call, she believed her neighbor had been killed.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Would you go in?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  I would, you know, carefully today. Now, 20 years ago, I probably would have went in, but I wouldn't have thought about, you know, preserving the site.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. We've obviously been doing as much research as we've done over the years. You would probably think more about that now.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it would be up to the individual. Now, it might have made a difference that they had numbers, right? If there was three of them, okay, maybe they felt a little better about it.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  If you're by yourself, I don't know, maybe just call 911 or.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  You gotta be careful, right? Because maybe whoever killed her is still in there.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, but you don't even know at that point, right? Until you go in, you have no idea.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  But a, but an open door doesn't scream safety.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  It's also almost 2:00 in the morning.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Which is even more reasons maybe why you.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Wait outside.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  If this was 11:00 in the morning with the sun out and, you know, all of that, maybe, maybe it's a little different. Dispatch didn't have much information from the neighbors who found Michelle. Officer Brandon Gudinkoff was on patrol, and he responded to the 911 call. He encountered a group of people standing outside the residence, including the 911 caller. They told the officer they were concerned about their neighbor, but they only knew her by the name Auntie.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Didn't even know her real name.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  It's our auntie or auntie.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  Auntie, however you want to say it. Officers went in and they found Michelle nude on her kitchen floor. She was covered in blood from dozens of puncture wounds. They also found evidence of blunt force trauma. Michelle's face was unrecognizable, according to Officer Gudinkoff. And you actually hear that quite a bit, you know, in the stories that we cover. And it paints a, an extremely gruesome scene.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  It does.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  When you think of a person's face being unrecognizable, that means a tremendous amount of damage.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I mean, what would be the reason to do something to somebody's face? You hate them that much? Or you hate the look they give you? Or do you hate just like that face?

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think if you're in law enforcement, you have to try to make something out of all the facts.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  Right? Normally, when we talk about somebody being stabbed 60, 70 times, right? People say, well, that denotes rape.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Well, what does this mean? That you're mad at this person? You want to, to hurt them? You want to disfigure them? Don't know. It was clear that there had been a great struggle as three cabinet doors were pulled off, and there was blood on the cabinets, fridge, and stove. Officers found a knife on the kitchen counter and a bent fork on the floor with blood on it.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  So, I mean, the fork could have been used on the face.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Well, there were marks on Michelle's body that looked like they were made by the tines of a fork.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  You know how much pressure you have to use to make that happen?

• 9:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so much so that you're probably going to end up bending the fork.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Which I think is what happened here. A bloodstained bra was found in the kitchen, and a bloody pair of men's shorts were found in the adjoining room. And I think, you know, as an investigator, you're going to make a lot out of that as well.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  I mean, she's found nude. So, right off the bat, you have to go to some sort of sexual assault, rape. You find the bloody bra, but then you find men's shorts. And you have to believe that there's a good chance those belong to her killer.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, potentially. Unless she liked to wear men's shorts just because they were comfortable.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Which, yeah, which some women might.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  They might like them baggy or buy them bigger or whatever. But by and large, I think if you're an investigator, you're probably thinking, maybe a good chance that these belong to the killer. We mentioned it, right? None of her neighbors knew Michelle's name, but investigators found her ID card. The woman who called 911 identified herself as a neighborhood friend. She explained that she came over to check on Michelle because she always stopped by after work on Monday through Friday. She usually hung out around the stoop and talked to Michelle. She noticed the decorations Michelle normally used to cover her window were missing. She sensed something wasn't right, so she decided to check inside Michelle's apartment and found her body.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  And that, you know what seemed strange to me? That you stopped by this woman's house every night, Monday through Friday, and you don't know her real name?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I find that very strange, too. At one point, you didn't say, hey.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  What's your real name?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  What's your real name? Or, hey, hi, I'm, I'm Gibby. You are?

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get it. People go by nicknames or, or things like that. But you would think spending that much time with a person, at some point, their real name is going to come up.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  So I found that strange.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Police canvassed the neighborhood. Most of the residents had no information to give investigators, but the woman next door provided a useful tip. She said Michelle had people in and out of her apartment fairly often. She usually had multiple people over at a time.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  This is neighbors pretty observant.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, which you you have neighbors like that.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Sure you do.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  You know, I've told the story before about my grandpa. He was that kind of guy. He loved to know what was going on.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  In his like little condo complex or, and so he would be looking out the window all the time, seeing what the neighbors were doing. He could tell you who was over, or maybe not who they were, but you know, which neighbors had visitors and things like that. He would be great for the police.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I bet.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  If anything ever happened. Michelle's sister, Charlene Kilburg, was the one who got the call that Michelle had been murdered. She was shocked and she had a ton of questions. Her siblings wondered who would ever want to harm Michelle? And I think that's a natural question, a reaction. And we talked about it, right? She was pretty beloved. She was active in her church. She helped these people out, took in people when they were down on their luck. She seemed like a very nice, great, all around person.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, just super kind, man.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  So what did she do to someone? Or what happened that made someone want to kill her? Unless this was just a random encounter stranger like attack.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  But not just kill her. I mean.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. There's much more to it.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's definitely brutal.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  You know, we're talking possible sexual assault, but but the murder itself was brutal.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  You know, there are a lot of different ways to kill someone and we've probably covered pretty much all of them. The blunt force trauma, the up close, multiple stab wounds.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  There is something to that. You know, you are, you're right up in somebody's face. It's very personal, right? When it's an extension of your hand and you know, you're right there plunging something into somebody. It's gruesome, but you gotta think about that.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  But there's gotta be a driving factor.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. According to her sister, Joelle Stotter, Michelle went to church a couple of times a week. She met people who were down on their luck and would let them stay with her to help them out. She often kept her door unlocked. And people in the neighborhood were aware of this. I mean, it's, it's great, right? To help people, but it is risky.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  It's extremely risky.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  To to do it like this, right? To just leave your door unlocked and people in the neighborhood just know it's unlocked, that people can come and go. It's a little risky.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Putting a lot of trust and faith in the community.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And people.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  But what it did was it created a very large pool of suspects for investigators.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  Detectives continued digging into Michelle's background, looking for suspects. The next day, Michelle's autopsy results were ready. Gibbs, she had been stabbed 41 times throughout the head, torso and neck, and suffered blunt force trauma to the head and face. It turned out there was no evidence of sexual assault.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  How angry can you, how angry would you have to be?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  At someone to stab them 41 times?

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does denote anger. I mean, there, there's no doubt about it. But it would take a couple of days, right? For DNA results to come back from the state lab. Investigators returned to the neighborhood to talk to witnesses who didn't answer the door in the early morning hours. Some neighbors reiterated that Michelle had a lot of people in and out of her apartment. Detectives spoke to the woman who lived next door a second time, who said Michelle moved in the summer before. The neighbor mentioned that her walls were attached to Michelle. She heard Michelle fighting with someone a couple of days prior. Michelle sounded upset. She was shouting. The neighbor said she wasn't sure what exactly the second person was saying,

• 15:36Speaker 00

  but she felt sure she heard Michelle's voice because she was familiar with her voice.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  She noted that the argument sounded like it came from outside in front of their apartment doors. Another neighbor mentioned that Michelle had trouble with a roommate named Drew. Michelle took Drew in because he didn't have anywhere to go, but she kicked him out a week prior because they were having issues. So naturally Drew quickly became a suspect.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Later that day, detectives talked to a neighbor who provided a second name. He said, Michelle never had a problem with anybody. He knew she had a boyfriend named Tom, who had stayed with her for a while. Now, he didn't know Tom's full name, but he knew he worked at the hot dog stand on Main Street.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  I'll be honest with you. I love a good hot dog stand.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  You just love hot dogs.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  I do. I actually love to go to Chicago.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Just to get a Chicago dog from a hot dog vendor.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Which is crazy because you never like to leave this place, but you're getting your car, your truck, drive there.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Chicago.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Get a couple of hot dogs.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Just drive back.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Eat them all the way back and get back here and just like.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  10 hours round trip for a couple of hot dogs. Totally normal.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you always forget to bring the Chicago popcorn.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Chicago style popcorn.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I forget the name of that.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Chicago mix.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  The big company that makes it. But you know, family members, they jumped in and helped investigate Tom's identity.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Helped confirm it for investigators. Charlene Kilburg said the first person that came to mind was Michelle's ex, Tom Legrand. She knew Tom had beaten Michelle up before. He struggled with alcoholism and things got out of hand, according to her, when he drank too much.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Well, this is something that looked like it got out of hand.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. According to Charlene, there were instances where Tom would choke Michelle and even lift her up into the air.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's some rage right there.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  He's got to be in the mix, right? As a serious person of interest. Michelle had also talked to her sister, Joelle, about her relationship with Tom. Michelle said she didn't like the way things were going. She tried to get Tom to leave several times. Eventually he did leave, but it got volatile and the police were called. So, you know, obviously Tom is is in the mix as a suspect, but for a couple of different reasons, you know, X, okay, that's going to put you on the radar.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Then when you start hearing these stories coming out from her sisters about the violence that occurred in the relationship, well, that's going to ratchet you up.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Big time, big time.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Right? They're gonna want to look at you even more. After they broke up, Michelle told Charlene that Tom tried to come back into her life, but she wouldn't have it. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince, but what I continually go for is their activewear flow net line. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and merino wool. Their styles are amazing and they design their clothes

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• 19:53Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. Investigators found Tom and brought him in for an interview. Tom said he and Michelle met through a mutual friend several years earlier. He confirmed that they did live together, but it had been almost a year since they broke up. Michelle didn't like how much he drank.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Because he was an asshole, it sounded like.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Well, because he got mean and violent when he drank. Yeah. He noted that they did remain in contact after the breakup, but he insisted that he had nothing to do with Michelle's murder. But he did confirm another possible suspect by naming Michelle's old roommate, the elusive Drew.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  He noted that Michelle finally kicked him out and Drew bounced from couch to couch. So, you know, Drew comes up, yeah, okay, you're gonna want to talk to him. But then I think when Tom's name comes up, you really want to talk to Tom.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Because of the situation, right? X, volatile, violence, you know, all of that. But he's saying, no, I didn't have anything to do with it, but you should definitely look at Drew.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  He's deflecting the Drew. That doesn't mean that Drew had anything to do with it. Maybe Tom actually did, but Tom's actually like, nope, not me. Go see this Drew guy.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, they're not going to dismiss Tom as a person of interest, right? Just because he says he didn't have anything to do with it. What they did was they started focusing on city traffic camera footage. They found one camera that pointed towards Michelle's apartment door.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  They got lucky.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I imagine Gibbs, depending on where you live, like if you live more in the city, you probably don't even realize all the different cameras that may be pointed at your apartment door.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a strange thing because like on my street, all the Ring cameras and those other brands,

• 22:06Speaker 01

  on people's doorbells and on their eaves, none of them work.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all, it's very strange.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  They keep going. Everybody says that they get new ones and then they just stop working and they don't know why.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  And the last image is of a burly 60 something year old man walking towards the camera.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Somebody with a hoodie on.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  I'm surprised there's, there's even that many Ring doorbell cameras out where you live. You live in the middle of nowhere.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  It's one of those places that people probably actually do leave their doors.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  Like the damn Unabomber out there.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  They're so remote.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Officers scrolled through hours of footage from the day Michelle was killed and they found footage of an unidentified man walking alongside Michelle, carrying groceries to her apartment. Okay, so I mean, they're working the case. Obviously, they're, they're trying to come up with a number of suspects, but then you hit on this video and you see a person, you know, walking with her on the day she's killed. Well, obviously, you're definitely going to want to talk to him.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to know, uh, who is this guy and what's the relationship here?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  So the cameras captured, um, them walking into her apartment together at 7:44 PM on July 21st, 2018. And then the man exited the house alone around 8:32 PM between the time she was killed and the time she was found. No one else entered her apartment.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  So that kind of locks it up.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  Uh, it kind of seems like it, right? She's alive when she walks in with this guy. He leaves the apartment, what roughly 45 minutes later, and then she never comes out and then she's later found dead.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  So unless the suspect was already in the place somehow.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, or got through somehow that wasn't captured by this camera.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Which is not as easy in an apartment, usually.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  True.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Houses have many more entrances normally than apartments do. Now, we don't know what type of apartment this was, but investigators followed the man's movements on other city traffic cameras. They walked downtown to the next phase bar on Central Avenue. And I said right early on that I'm fascinated by some of these camera type cases because it's not always, or not even normally, I don't think, just one camera, you know, it's almost like in some of the shows that you and I love.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  They are tracking or able to track a person's movement, let's say throughout a city, just by different, you know, acquiring different camera footages.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, uh, I know London's famous for all the cameras.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, they got a ton of cameras. And you and I watch a lot of British, uh, crime shows and CIA type shows or MI5 type shows.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  British?

• 25:08Speaker 00

  British. Did you have more to say?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  That's British. British.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  You know, the more British shows I watch.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Uh, the more I think that's not, I mean, that is the one thing that you actually do as far as accents, it's pretty decent.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Pretty good.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  No, that's terrible.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Pretty good.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  No, that's terrible. I don't even know what that is. That's not even an accent. That's just, you're not even getting the words out right.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  So they're following this guy, right? Through town. The owner of this bar, the next phase bar, reported that he arrived drunk and was harassing women, so they refused to serve him. And you know, it's bad when you arrive at the bar drunk, so drunk that they won't even give you a drink.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, we don't need you in here, buddy.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  No, you know, you're bad at that point. He was arrested at 10:39 PM on July 21st and charged with public intoxication, harassment, interference with official acts, and unlawful possession of prescription medication. His arrest was captured on debut police body cam footage. The suspect was identified as 53-year-old Gary Cornell James. So, you know, just, it's fascinating. Again, this guy was arrested on the night of the murder, but for things that had nothing to do with the murder.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  You know, he's drunk in public, he's harassing women, he's just generally causing a scene wherever he goes.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  That's middle illegal prescription drugs on him.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  He, he has that as well. Investigators found another incident involving James on police body cam footage that occurred the day before Michelle's murder. Police responded to the home of a woman named Pam, who feared Gary James returned to her apartment after she kicked him out. She explained that she had taken him in, but he was doing things that were concerning. So she kicked him out and he just began showing up uninvited. Responding officers entered Pam's residence, but they didn't find James. So it does sound to me like, you know, this is an individual who, you know, doesn't have a fixed residence, right?

• 27:32Speaker 00

  He's staying with people, kind of moving from maybe couch to couch.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Bouncing around.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Much in the same way that people said that this guy Drew did.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  And we talked about it, right? Michelle was one who was very willing to help people who were in need.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  That was out there in the, uh, public, right?

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  She wasn't shy about having it out there.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  No, that's how her neighbors knew her to be, to the point where they knew her door was unlocked. Detectives working the Michelle Kenny murder discovered that James was still in jail, which was surprising, is they expected him to be released the day after his public intoxication arrest, which would be very normal, right? A lot of people get arrested for public intoxication or something else. Normally, they just keep you till you, they sober up.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, sleep it off.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Sober up, you sleep it off. Now you're going to have to come back and go to court or whatever it is, depending on what you're charged with, but they don't hold you for a long period of time.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  No reason to.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Normally. Before interviewing James, detectives circled back to Pam to understand James's state of mind, leading up to Michelle's murder. According to Pam, James said he needed somewhere to stay until he got a new place. He stayed with her for a few weeks that summer. During that time, he was up all night pacing and talking to himself. He told Pam he was talking to Jesus. He also took her butcher knives out of the house, but she didn't know they were missing until the day prior.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Now, she had told police already, right? He was acting strangely. She got concerned and made him leave. Well, now we're starting to get into more of the detail of what she found strange. Now, is talking to Jesus strange? No, not for most people.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  A lot of people talk to Jesus.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  I think in the way that he was doing it or saying it, you know, he's up all night, he's pacing around.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  He's taking all her big knives out of the house. Uh, yeah, you might be a little more concerned about that statement and in light of all that.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I absolutely would be concerned, you know, is he unstable? Why? Is he taking my knives? And where are my knives?

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Like, you know.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Can I get those back, please?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Or do I want them back? Why did you take them in the first place?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, what is he doing with them or what will he do with them? What has he done?

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  But, you know, I, I know I, I've talked about this before and it's the idea of how vulnerable you are when you're in a house with other people sleeping, right? I go back to my college days. I didn't think about it back then, but looking back on it, you know, three guys living in a very small room. Okay, you're pretty vulnerable when you're asleep. When you have your family in your house, as most people do, are you vulnerable? Yeah. But do you think something's going to happen? No, most people don't. Your family loves you, you love them.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  You take care of each other. But when you have people you don't really know all that well, and who may or not be mentally stable at that point in time, to me, that's a very scary situation.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I would have a hard time falling asleep in a place like that. I'd have to have like my own room where I can lock the door.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Big time locks or?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, put a little system on there so I can hear someone coming in.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  But, but again, you know, for me, it's amazing when these people help others the way they do. I mean, I find it extraordinary.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  It's honorable.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  But at the same time, you are putting yourself in a somewhat risky position.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Sure are.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  By doing that. Investigators brought Gary James in for his first interview later on July 23rd. James said the detectives were trying to accuse him of something when he didn't do anything. Detectives then confronted him with a screenshot of the traffic camera footage that showed him with Michelle. He looked at the picture and said, he didn't know the woman by name, but he admitted it was him in the picture. He claimed he just saw her walking. When asked what prompted him to walk with her, he said, she asked him to help her with some bags and that was it. She said she would give him a few dollars for his help. He also claimed he didn't go in the house and left the area. But we've

• 32:17Speaker 00

  already talked about it, right? Investigators knew this was a lie based on the traffic camera footage, but even when confronted with that, James refused to admit that he went inside or changed his clothes. So they let him go.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  They let him kind of, you know, sit with some of these things with his thoughts overnight. The next day, they interviewed him again and they decided to switch up their tactics. They knew that James cared about religion. So the detectives told him, there would be a time when he would have to face a higher power about the sins he committed. And he then admitted, I did it. I'm ready to do my time.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  And it, it's fascinating when you look at it from the standpoint of interrogation.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Right? It's just like dealing with your kids. The way you might talk to one of your kids may be different than the way you would talk to one of your other kids in the exact same situation because they have different motivations, they respond differently, right? Some people respond to sternness, others don't at all. They respond to more of a kinder approach. And, you know, this is fascinating to me because they must have sit, sat around thinking about it, you know, how are we going to get him to crack or open up?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And they must have settled on this religion angle.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Guilt him in that direction.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  And it worked.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  And it did.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  Whereas, you know, they're basically confronting him with video evidence that, you know, he was in this house and he's like, no, I didn't go inside the house.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  But the minute they mentioned religion, a higher power, that got him.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  He's like, oh, man, I can't, I can't be caught lying. I'm gonna have to come clean.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. One detective recalled, it was like the floodgates opened. He said, I was in a rage because this girl put me out, referring to the incident with Pam.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Right. He had been staying with Pam. She kicked him out. When describing how he attacked Michelle, he said, she asked me to help her with her bags. I just went berserk. I went crazy. I jumped on her. I was fighting her. Then I started stabbing her. During the attack, the woman pleaded, stop, stop. But he continued attacking her. He admitted he used both a knife and a fork to stab Michelle.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  I mean, he did go berserk.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. This was a frenzy.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Right? Knife, fork, he's just stabbing, stabbing, stabbing, stabbing.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  I can't remember the stab count again, but it was.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  It was in the 40s.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like 41 or something.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was high.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  It was very high. But, you know, was this a situation, Gibbs, where he was upset with Pam? But he found someone else to take his anger and frustration out of. Because I do think that happens very often.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  You know, a lot of times, these individuals, they don't want to hurt the person they're actually mad at. Because they may actually, you know, they might like them, they might love them.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  But they are so upset that they're gonna find somebody else, right? To, to take that anger out on. That might be the situation here.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  That's what they did.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  James denied that sexual assault was a motive. In fact, he said there was no motive and no intent. He insisted Michelle's clothes were ripped off in the struggle. He admitted Michelle scratched him, which lined up with the scratches seen on his back.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  So he just, again, I mean, he said he went berserk, so he just went out of his mind at that moment.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. But do you buy this? First of all, he's saying, there's no motive, there's no intent. Well, I don't buy that. There's something there.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  There has to be.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Whether, whether it's the fact that he was angry at Pam, but there's a reason why he attacked this woman.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  And to me, someone who is fully clothed, right? Now, we don't know what kind of clothes she was wearing. I doubt every stitch of clothing a person has on.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  Is going to come off in a fight, no matter how violent the fight is.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was pretty violent.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  It was.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  But for her shorts or pants to come off.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Her underwear, her top, bra, yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  She was found completely nude.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  It's very hard for me to believe that every bit of that clothing.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Flew off.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Just came off in the struggle.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  I don't buy it.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, same here.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  He said that he took about $50 from Michelle's home. He walked out of the house in Michelle's jeans because his shorts were too bloody to wear. He bought drinks at the bar with the money he stole from Michelle.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Well, we knew that there was a pair of men's shorts left behind at the scene. Now that, now we kind of know why. I don't know what kind of shorts of hers he was wearing that he walked into this, jean shorts, like.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Well, it said jeans. It didn't even say shorts.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Oh, just a pair of jeans.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  He was wearing shorts when he went in.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  It said, he left wearing her jeans. So he might, you know, he removed her jeans. There's, there's no doubt about it.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Like I said, right? Her, all of her clothing didn't fly off during the struggle and then he just saw these jeans and put them on.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Wonder if they're like mom jeans or?

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  That'd be kind of weird seeing a guy walk in with low rider jeans.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Women's jeans.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Jeans on at a bar. I don't know.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Evidence from James's clothing corroborated his story. And we mentioned it, right? Investigators, they found a pair of men's shorts. They also found some white socks covered in blood in the apartment. James was wearing these tan shorts and he was also wearing white socks on the video when he was seen entering the apartment.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  So Gary James was charged with first degree murder. He was held on a $1 million cash only bond because the judge considered him a flight risk with no ties to the community.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  I would think he would be a huge flight risk.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, this is a person who, at this point in time, has no fixed address.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  It's not like he's got a home and a wife and kids and things that would be a little bit harder to run away from.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Would be, but he looks like, it looks like, sounds like the type of guy that would pounce at any given moment. Bounce, not pounce.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  What does he pound? He's already pounced.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  When he went berserk and attacked this woman. So I was a little confused.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  But yeah.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  He'll bounce.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Using some lingo there, like bounced as in get out of town.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  You got it.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  It, it sometimes takes a while, but we get there.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Well, see, what happens is, I think I'm gonna use some of the bigger words I know, but I don't want to do that because maybe, you know, you.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  I might not understand them.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  So then I have.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  The audience might not understand.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  The audience will get it because they're, they're awesome.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm the one that's inferior. I get you.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  I want to, you know, dial it down a notch or two or five.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. But the words just don't come out quite the way that you.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  I don't use them every day.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Plan them. Because they're, they're too generic.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Well, that's it, you know, I mean, bounce.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  You only use very big words and you only apparently use words that rhyme.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  So there was, there was one problem the police had. They, they weren't sure how Michelle and, and Gary James knew each other. But they ultimately determined that they were just complete strangers who had this brief encounter on the street.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  She needed help getting some bags in the house.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  And I think, Gibbs, that how kind this woman was, right? We talked about it quite a bit. I think she took a look at this guy, Gary James, and she probably recognized that, you know, here's a guy who might be down on his luck a little bit.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  I got all these bags. I could use a little bit of help. He might be able to use a few dollars.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  To help me take them over to my apartment. I really do think that Michelle was an unbelievably compassionate person. I think she just wanted to help anyone that she could, who she felt was in need.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I believe that.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  And it's sad that in doing so, this guy took advantage of her generosity, her compassion, and ultimately took her life.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he saw a moment of opportunity.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  I think he did. News sources reported that Gary James had a criminal history in Howard County, Iowa. His previous charges included criminal confinement, strangulation, battery and disorderly conduct.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Criminal confinement.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Well, you know, battery, disorderly conduct. I'm sure a lot of people might have something along those lines, right? You get in a bar fight.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  You could get battery, disorderly conduct. But when you get in the area of criminal confinement, strangulation, okay. Most people do not have something like that.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  On their rap sheet. Gary James was from Kokomo, Iowa.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  I did not know there was a Kokomo, Iowa.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  I did not either.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  I knew there's a Kokomo, Indiana.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  But.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  And Kokomo, the beach.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Okay. Why did you stress the mo?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Kokomo.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Kokomo.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  According to the Kokomo Tribune.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  James left Kokomo after he was arrested.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  That cracked you up, didn't it? While on probation in Howard County, after two cases of violence against women. The first case from October 16, 2017, was initially reported as an attempted rape. Officers arrived at the scene and talked to the victim. She said she was looking for a place to stay and thought she could stay at James's apartment. He told her she couldn't stay for free, implying she should provide sexual services.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  She refused and put her belongings outside intending to leave. He grabbed her, threw her down, and tore off some of her clothing. She had scratches on her left hand and foot, and abrasion on her knee, and scratches on her neck.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  So this is something that he's done before?

• 43:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Well, and, and does it lend any credence to him saying, oh, you know, there, there was no type of sexual intent?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  To me, it doesn't.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  If you've done it before, I'm gonna have a hard time buying you saying, well, that, that didn't, that wasn't part of my thinking.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  When the victim is found nude with all of her, you know, obviously all of her clothing off. Now, I get it, they, they didn't determine that she was sexually assaulted. But that doesn't mean he, he wasn't thinking about it, or

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Tempting.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Tempting it, and maybe he got scared off, or, or something like that. James was charged with strangulation and criminal confinement, both felonies. But the state later dropped the charges, in addition to a charge of interference with the reporting of a crime. In exchange, he pleaded guilty to battery, causing bodily harm.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a major reduction.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  It is, and it, and this is what ticks a lot of people off, you know, this make a deal thing. I understand prosecutors in some instances have to make a deal to get, you know, what they ultimately want.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  But I think people get upset when these deals are made, and, and pretty much anything of significance in the way of charges is wiped out, and the person gets what, you know, would ultimately be a misdemeanor. When they're looking at two felonies, because battery is not gonna follow you the same way that these two felonies would, right?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  It's not gonna be the, the same type of record.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a joke.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I think you're right.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Now, we don't know all the particulars. Maybe they thought they didn't have enough to get him, but I, I just think people get ticked off, because it's, it's like people are not held accountable for what they do, and then when they go do it again, it's like, well, what do you expect?

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's the problem, right? If you don't correct the action, if he thinks, well, I, all I'm gonna do is get a slap on the wrist, so I'll do it again.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  And I'll figure out how to, you know, plea it down, or make a deal, or, or whatever. Yeah, it makes us mad. I think it makes a lot of people mad, listening, watching. James was sentenced to a year in prison, which was suspended.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  So not only does he get the two felonies dropped, he doesn't, you know, they suspend his sentence. He was granted probation and required to undergo mental health treatment and attend a batterer's intervention program. And I'm not against programs, don't get me wrong, but I, I think to, like you alluded to, this is a joke. This is not even a slap on the wrist. It's really nothing.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  And how do you feel good about going back to the victim and saying, hey, you know, we thought we were best to plead this down to this, or reduce the charges to this, and we got him, but the one-year sentence was suspended, and he, um, he's out.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, again, we don't have all the facts, right, around this one incident. Maybe the victim decided they didn't want to cooperate, which does happen sometimes, and that, that can hurt the prosecution, but I don't know. It, it is a problem. On March 17, 2018, officers responded to a reported rape. They interviewed a woman who identified James as her attacker. She reported she had a knife and stabbed him. So officers met James at his apartment. He was found shirtless with two bleeding wounds in his upper torso. Seeming to corroborate the woman's story, he initially followed law enforcement directions.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  But as officers attempted to have him leave the building for treatment, he refused, and he began to argue with the police. He said he needed to recover some personal items before leaving, and officers told him, this is no time to be concerned about such issues. He continued to argue, and per the arresting officer's report, at this point, due to his disorderly demeanor and nature of injuries, I believed it was time to take control of him and see to his medical needs, since he was apparently not of a right mind to make that decision for himself. He was cuffed, treated, and then charged with resisting arrest and disorderly conduct.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  But what that charge did was it triggered a petition to revoke his probation on the older battery charge. After his initial appearance on April 5, James was released on his own recognizance in order to report to the probation department by 4:00 PM that day. He never showed up.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Shocking.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Shocking.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  And then just three months later, Michelle was murdered.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  And again, right, you're looking at the system and how the system works. And yeah, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback it here, but it didn't work.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  And I think that's obvious, and most people would say, it just didn't work here, the way that it, it should have.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I mean, good for the woman that stabbed him, you know, made him, uh, leave her alone.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, she probably saved herself from a, a horrible ordeal.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  For sure, yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Possible rape, and, and maybe even, you know, some other harm.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  You know, I'm, I'm a, I'm all about defending yourself. In August 2018, James was ordered to stand trial. On October 10, 2018, Gary James was sentenced to 50 years in prison. After pleading guilty to second-degree murder, prosecutors agreed to reduce the first-degree murder charge. And to be honest with you, that one I don't have as much problem with.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  You know, depending on what revolves around first degree there, okay. I'm, I'm sure a defense team can make a really good argument, that there was no premeditation, right? He's helping her, things got out of hand inside, whatever, whatever, however you want to argue it.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  So I don't, I don't really have a problem with a 50-year sentence for second degree.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  Michelle's sister Robbie Haas referenced James' prior charges in Howard County during the sentencing. She said, per the Kokomo Tribune, "It sickens me that it took the death of my sister, someone so dear, so precious and loved, to likely save other women from getting hurt by you. This is what gives me a sliver of peace in all of this. Her death has to be part of something better." And I feel for the sisters and the family, because no doubt, they're going to learn, and did learn about all of his earlier misdeeds.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  And the fact that he was not held accountable. If he had been, you could make a real argument that he's not out on the street to kill Michelle.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, Michelle would still be alive.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  If he had been, uh, held accountable.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Thomas Goodwin, James's public defender, said, "There's cameras everywhere in this city, and the evidence was overwhelming." And he wanted to plead guilty. I, I don't know why he would, and there's no way he was gonna be found not guilty.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  James is required to serve at least 35 years of his 50-year sentence, according to the Kokomo Tribune. In a 2024 article on the impacts of homicides on families, The Telegraph Herald reported that studies have shown the average homicide leaves in its wake six to 10 co-victims, that's what they termed it, close friends or family who are deeply impacted by the law.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  And we talk about that a lot.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  It's not only the immediate family, well, it is the immediate family, but then there's also the community around it, and coworkers and all that, too.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Sometimes we term it like the spider web, but it's interesting, uh, I don't know if I've ever heard somebody put a number on it, right? The average is six to 10.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  To me, actually, it seems kind of low.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  As I say, I did too.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  I would have thought it, it would be a little bit higher.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like double that.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Michelle's sister Charlene Kilburg told The Telegraph Herald that in the years since her death, they've had to learn how to cope and live with the loss. She said, "It's like a big hole in our heart. There's been some healing, but it's still very hard."

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  And I just, I just think it's, it's something you, you never get over. For months after Michelle's death, Charlene couldn't drive in downtown Dubuque without feeling sick.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Be hard to do.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  Michelle's older sister Joelle Stoddard said, "Her death left her with a heightened sense of awareness in public settings." She said, "I'm much more observant of my surroundings now. We all grew up on a farm, and I think we were kind of innocent to some of the things around urban life."

• 53:21Speaker 01

  You know, we, we say it all the time, right? Keep your head on a swivel, keep your own time ticking, all that stuff, right?

• 53:27Speaker 00

  And, and there's no doubt, since we've been doing this podcast, I, I'm, I'm much more observant, right? When I get out of my car at a shopping mall, or something like that, you know, I, I refuse to have my head buried in my phone.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  I want to look and see what's going on around me, and I don't want to be paranoid about it, but I just want to be aware.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  You could say I'm almost too aggressive now, you know, some of the people I've

• 53:51Speaker 00

  I think a lot of people would say that about you.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  That man is too aggressive. He is in my face. Please back up, sir.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  I think the lawsuits would back that up.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  But yeah, I mean, again, I don't think it calls for paranoia, but awareness is a good word.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  Charlene and Joel said they have nothing left to tell Gary James that they didn't say in their victim impact statements. Instead, they choose to focus on honoring Michelle. They also make sure to tip well at restaurants to honor their sister, who was a waitress her entire life. Charlene and Joel have visited Des Moines several times to speak at training for victim advocates. They also took a trip to Ireland to spread Michelle's ashes.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Oh, that's cool.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. In an interview for the show, The Murder Tapes, Michelle's sister Robbie Haas reflected on her sister's life and impact, saying, I think one of the things that Michelle really would want us to know is never stop being kind. Don't be fearful. Stop and say hello to those people that really need it the most.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  I mean, there's, she's right. You know, there's plenty of people out there that need help. Sometimes it's just as simple as you not ignoring them. Like when you walk by, say hi.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  You know, don't, you know, a lot of people are walking past them because they're afraid to talk to them because they, maybe they look a little strange for whatever reason.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  And I'll be honest, as we wrap this case up, I love the way that she lived her life.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Now, I was honest. I said, as much as I love it, I still have to say that by doing it that way, you, you do open yourself up maybe a little bit more.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  But I, I love it. It's just so selfless, right? To live your life like that. And I'm sure she got a lot out of it.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure it did a lot of good things for her.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, made her feel good about helping people. I think it's, again, it's sad when people take advantage of the kindness of others.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Or take advantage of people anyway. But this woman really was a class act and this guy just took advantage of her kindness.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  And killed her.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  For what? Cause he was mad at, I think, some woman who kicked him out of her house.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he ended up walking away with $50.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and bought drinks.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  And bought drinks anyway, you know, it's, come on, man.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, just, just a terrible, terrible way all around.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Tragedy.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  But that's it for our episode on Michelle Kenny. And that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

• 56:48Speaker 02

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