Glenna Duram

Marty and Glenna Duram were married for 11 years, and they shared a home in Sand Lake, Michigan. Glenna's favorite pastime was gambling, and it eventually spiraled out of control. She purchased $50 to $100 worth of tickets three to four times a week at one gas station. She also went to casinos once or twice a week, usually with Marty. In 2010, Glenna lost $75,000 at local casinos. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Glenna Duram. When Marty was murdered, the police naturally looked at Glenna. They ultimately discovered that she was concealing massive debts and an impending foreclosure she had been hiding from him. Months after the murder, family members came forward with evidence from her husband’s talking parrot, who appeared to have witnessed the shooting. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 489 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. You paused there. I didn't know if you were gonna ask me or not. I'm trying to be given that dramatic effect. Dramatic pause, they call it. All right, man. We're jumping right in these Thursday episodes. You know, they're, they're kind of different. The YouTube videos and the Thursday episodes just kind of, you know, get to it. There's no shout outs. There's no nothing. We don't mess around. We just get down. Yep, we're talking about Glenna Durham.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  Glenna Durham murdered her husband to conceal debts and an impending foreclosure that she'd been hiding from him. Months after the murders, or the murder, I should say, family members came forward with evidence from her husband's talking parrot who appeared to have witnessed the shooting. Probably one of crackers. So I, you know, this is one that kind of jumped out at me is, all right, you know, we try to do some strange ones every now and then. Now, a woman murdering her husband is not the strangest thing. That is not. We've covered that many times. Often it has to do with money. Yeah. Which this one does.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  But I don't believe we've ever talked about a talking parrot helping to solve the case. Not that I remember. And that's, I think what we're getting into here. So Marty and Glenna Durham were married for 11 years. They shared a home in Sand Lake, Michigan. Marty had three adult children from an earlier marriage and Glenna had two. And, you know, I think that's quite common, right? When you're talking about second or third marriages later in life. Yeah. Okay, people are often, you know, going into those marriages with children, sometimes grown children from previous relationships. Call that the Brady Bunch effect. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Marty was described as a family man who loved the outdoors. He was also a proud grandfather and he was in a car accident in 1995 that jarred his brain and shattered the left side of his body. He was in a coma for a month after the accident. According to Glenna, he couldn't remember his first marriage or the births of his children.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  It can be rough.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  That's a very serious accident. And, you know, let's face it, you and I on this podcast have talked a lot about, you know, traumatic brain injuries.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Because a lot of the serial killers that we've profiled have had a history of those.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  They have.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  And it, in a lot of cases, has played a factor maybe in what they've gone on to do. But, um, yeah, I don't know. You know, that concussion thing, and this is obviously probably way worse than two football players running into each other.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  This is a, you know, really bad car accident, but it's still that the brain moving around inside the skull, it can cause quite a bit of damage and long lasting effects.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  It certainly can.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  His condition worsened in 2010. Glenna began earning almost $3,200, a little bit less a month for taking care of her husband. Marty received $1,100 a month in disability. They split the money evenly.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Well, that's interesting. She got paid to take care of her husband.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, now the splitting of the money, that doesn't surprise me. I think a lot of married people, you know, pool their finances.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  I do know some people who complete, uh, have completely separate finances.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Who do I?

• 3:59Speaker 00

  My best friend in the world. Um, he and his wife have been married almost 30 years now.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  And ever since I've known them, they have kept separate checking accounts.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  But yet you're on his checking account with him, which I'm sure the wife thinks is strange, but hey, whatever.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  And, you know, it's, I ask him all the time, how do you divvy it up? And he's like, well, I pay for these bills and she pays for these bills. And I'm like, I don't know. My wife and I just throw everything into the pot and.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  She takes it all.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  She does. And then I meet the Amazon guy at the door.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  That's right. What did my wife order this time?

• 4:39Speaker 00

  The delivery driver. But even with all this going on, right? Marty was still able to spend time outdoors. His favorite pastime was hunting, which a lot of people are hunters. I'm not. I've never been a hunter. But, you know, I think it does kind of give you at least some idea of what his limitations were. He had them, there's no doubt, but to he could still go hunting. So that has to tell you something.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  You know, you're operating a gun, you're, you're doing stuff like that. It was said that Glenna's favorite pastime was gambling.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a dangerous pastime.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  It can be for, for a lot of people. Now, I'm not a gambler either. I'm a lot of things, but a hunter and a gambler is, is not in my repertoire. I've been gambling. I've been to casinos. It's just not something that I really have ever found a lot of enjoyment in.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Well, and be honest, last time we went to Vegas for Crime Con a few years ago, I'm gonna be curious what happens this year. They did ask you to leave the casino because you are good at counting cards.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  I am.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  So, and they picked up on it pretty quick.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  So we'll see if they let you back in.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  No, but really what happened was my daughter had just turned 21. And I gave her a hundred dollars.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  To gamble with. And I turned around and she's like, Dad, my money's gone.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Like, I didn't even get to, she was, she was at like one of the slot machines or something. She's just like pressing buttons.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Slow down, honey, slow down. Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Uh, so yeah, maybe that's part of why I don't. But clerks at several gas stations near the couple's home would report that Glenna bought lottery tickets often.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  She purchased fifty to a hundred dollars worth of tickets, three to four times a week at one of the gas stations.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Wow, that's, that's a problem.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, a lot of people like scratch offs.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  They do.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  And I've bought some scratch offs before. They can be fun. But, you know, we just said how much money they were bringing in. And to me, gambling is kind of one of those disposable income type deals, right? The best thing is to set aside X amount of money and just assume you're gonna lose that. And you gotta be okay with that.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  You know how you can kind of, I want to say fix the scratch off problem, but slow it down? Instead of having them be in scratch off, have them be lick off.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  This is your gambling solution?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That's how, you know, it would definitely slow the process down.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Maybe. I guess it depends. Are they flavored? I mean, maybe it's just another reason to get them.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Just make them all black licorice flavor?

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  But it wasn't just scratch offs, right? She also went to casinos once or twice a week, usually with Marty. In 2010, Glenna gambled seventy-five thousand dollars at local casinos, according to the Detroit News.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Well, that's more money than her three thousand and some dollars that she was getting.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  And Marty's eleven hundred. Even if you totaled them, it wouldn't total up seventy-five thousand dollars a year. During a 2012 trip to visit Marty's brother, Dan, in Montana, the couple couldn't travel anywhere without Glenna wanting to stop at a casino.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  It's an addiction.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's what, you know, all of this is painting. Because Dan said that he saw Glenna put hundred dollar bills into slot machines, and she asked him not to tell Marty. Now, I just said, I gave my daughter a hundred dollars. She put it in and before you know it was gone. Not that hard, depending on what type of slots you're playing, to lose hundreds and hundreds of dollars pretty quickly.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Doesn't, doesn't take much time at all.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  And so, you know, these gambling adventures, I'll call them, eventually started causing financial problems. And how could they not? We just mentioned it, right? If you're spending way more than you're bringing in on gambling, well, you've still got to pay for food and, you know, housing, utilities, all of that. How could you not have financial problems?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  It was said the company, the couple owed money to the IRS and a collections agency tried to repossess one of their cars, but it was Glenna, right? Who managed the finances and she kept all of these debts hidden from Marty. And why would she do that?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, look, it's not a good thing, right? I mean, because she knows if he finds out, there's major issues coming down the road.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, he's probably going to want to try to put a stop to that.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  He'll have to.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Right?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Because it's not sustainable. She told Marty she was making car payments, but she wasn't.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Marty was said to have been a pretty frugal person. He was known for turning lights off and keeping the heat low to save money.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  And that's just kind of counter, I mean, you're, you're trying to save everything you can over here, but yet on this side, you know, your spouse is just, you know, willy nilly spending everything at the casinos.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  But you don't know.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  But you don't know it. You're just like, why aren't we making any headway? Why are we going the opposite direction?

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Well, I don't even know if he knows that part, right? Because he's not managing the finances. He probably only knows exactly what Glenna is telling him. And I'm assuming that it's, hey, fine, everything's fine.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  We're good.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Don't worry.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  But, you know, being a frugal person, or the things that were said about Marty, really made me think of you.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  I mean, you are, in, in some instances, pretty frugal.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Can be.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  In others, very generous.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  It's kind of strange the way you operate, but, you know.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  To each his own.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I my wallet's right here or.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  It's somewhere.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Somewhere, probably locked up in the vehicle.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  It just doesn't get used.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  But Glenna was also dealing with health problems around the time of the shooting. She had bronchitis and was going back and forth with her insurance for refusing to pay for x-rays of her back. Debt collectors were calling about her medical bills. She had also stopped taking medication for depression. So I feel like we have like a perfect storm, right? Of of things that are going on. I will say this about debt collectors for medical bills. I feel like they are relentless.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  They are.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  I mean, if I get a medical bill in the mail today, tomorrow, I'm probably going to get a call.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  I'm wondering if, when I'm going to pay it. And I tell them, I literally just got it yesterday.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Maybe they expected me to pay it yesterday, I guess, but.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  My rule is allow it to cycle through a few times. Make sure the insurance company.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  I know that's your rule.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  They should have done before I have to.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  And my, my oldest is kind of the same way. She said to me one time, um, she threw away a bill or something. I said, honey, you can't throw away those type of bills. She's like, if it's important, they'll send it again. I was like, all right, I don't think that's the way you should operate, but you're an adult.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  She's like, gimme does.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  I can't tell you what to do. In April, 2015, Marty received a call from his mother, Lillian, who informed him that a legal notice in the local paper said his home was being foreclosed. And that is part of the foreclosure process, right? There's a legal notice that goes in the paper. Just so happened that his mother saw it and was like, hey, uh, wanted to let you know that, uh, the paper's saying your, your home's about ready to be foreclosed.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I mean, think about. What you used to do for work?

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  What I kind of still do for work. How many times did we get those calls from people saying, I didn't even know this happened?

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  You know, my, my spouse didn't tell me.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  And, and some of, we always thought that was BS, but some of those are probably true.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Wasn't going to change anything, but what are you going to do? But I think as you can expect, right? His first thought was, well, I got to ask Glenna about this. She said it was a mistake and would call the bank. And I have a feeling that this was probably a, a cycle, right? He would get hints that maybe some things financially were not going great.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  But every time he would bring it up to her, she probably had an answer. Many people do in these type of scenarios. Ah, it's a bank error or, you know, I'll take care of it. I'll fix it. And then that part kind of goes away. On April 28th, foreclosure papers were placed on the Durham's front door. And I think, all right, when you get to that point, I don't know how you're explaining that. I don't know how you're spinning that if you're Glenna.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, at that point, I think you're out of excuses. I mean, obviously you could try to make some, but it's going to be really difficult.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  And I, I think in a lot of these types of cases, you know, people are doing something that they know is not sustainable.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  They're getting away with it for a while, but they have to know in their hearts that at some point they're going to be exposed.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Right? It's all going to catch up to them. And when it does, that, that seems oftentimes to be when something bad happens. And I think we're, you know, we're going to see it here too. After Marty's death, the executor of his estate would tell police the $700 monthly mortgage payments hadn't been paid for a year.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, not surprised if they're that far into foreclosure.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause it does take a, quite a while.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  It does.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  From missing first payment to ultimately getting to the point where, you know, you're, you're foreclosed on.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  The couple's checking account had just $182 in it. They had $118 in a savings account and a safe in their home with $200 in change.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Barely $500 in their name.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly 500 if I'm doing the math right.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I don't want to brag and call it out to be exactly on 500. I was just trying to play it down a little bit.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Really?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Mensa.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know you don't like to show off.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  I don't. I try. I try. I try not to. Did you see my cup?

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, everybody has seen it.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Have you?

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. Actually, one of the M is starting to wear off already.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 15:57Speaker 00

  Have to order a new one.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  The couple's home was scheduled to be auctioned off by the sheriff's office on May 12, 2015, which turned out to be the day of the shooting. At 7:30 a.m. on May 12th, neighbor Connie Ream was heading to work and she heard two gunshots. Now, she wasn't alarmed because she knew Marty hunted in the area. Connie and her husband Keith were good friends with the Durham. Connie normally talked to or texted Glenna daily. And, and you know, we talk about this quite a bit, people hearing gunshot.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  And, you know, it really does depend on where you live, what your situation is, how close your neighbors are. You know, if you live in New York City, hearing a gunshot is, you know, alarming.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  I would think.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  If you live in the Midwest and you're more rural, it may not be as alarming.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I could walk out my back door and fire my gun and.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Nobody would ever say anything.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Probably not call the police and, um, now it may be legal, it may not be depending on whether you live. I know for me here, whether you live in the city or the township.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  If you live in the township, apparently you can fire your gun where, whenever you want. Not, not at someone, but you know what I'm saying? But if you live in the city, you can't.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  But strangely, when I walk around town with my K-bar, I get stopped.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  It's a big knife.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  It's a scary knife.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  But so I'm getting the the kind of idea that, you know, maybe they were a little more rural. Their neighbors were used to him hunting on that land, or they had a little bit of land, or whatever it was. So gunshots weren't out of the ordinary.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Just not surprised.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Later that day, Connie received a call from her husband, who reported that Marty was not responding to his texts. So after work, Connie went over to the Durham's house. She knocked on the doors and windows. No one appeared to be home, except for the dog, who was barking. Later that evening, she sent Glenna a text, asking if she and Marty were home. She received no response. Connie's husband Keith jokingly texted Glenna, what have you done with Marty?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Well, it's going to turn out to be pretty prophetic, right? But it really sounds to me like these are some neighbors who were very close.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  I mean, texting, calling daily. I don't even know some of my neighbors' names. I'm certainly not calling or texting them on a daily basis.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Guarantee you, you do not even know any of their names.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  I know one of them. I know the guy across the street, because he's very nice. He throws up.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  He throws up his hand. We sometimes meet halfway and talk for a little bit.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  One of, one of those neighbors.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, but for some reason, you know, I've lived here, I don't know, 23, 24 years.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  And I have not had a great track record of neighbors.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  That might be your opening line to them, you know?

• 19:17Speaker 00

  Which is what? Hi, with a wave?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  If you want to call it that.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  The old people that, no, they weren't old, but the people who used to live next door to me.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  I literally, to the guy one time said, hey, threw up my hand, he gave me the finger and walked inside. I'm like, okay, what did I do?

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Like, I guess we're not going to be buddies.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  And from then on, just.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  You know, that kind of tells you everything you need to know about what the relationship's gonna be.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  So we've got nobody answering. We've got a dog barking. At 3:30 PM, Connie decided to go back and, and check the house again. This time, she noticed that the front door was unlocked. She entered the home and saw the living room in disarray, which she has said was not normal. A broken lamp and several items were strewn across the living room and bedroom. There was a bowl of spaghetti and garlic bread on the kitchen table, as if someone's meal was interrupted. And I think if you're that close, you've been in the house a lot.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  You know what kind of housekeepers they are. So you know whether the house looks like, you know, it normally does, or, or it doesn't.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  In this case, it didn't look normal.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Well, who in their right mind leaves a full bowl of spaghetti with some garlic bread uneaten?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Especially if it's mom's spaghetti.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  They are in, near Detroit. So that was actually a pretty good reference. Cause Eminem was, you know, on 8 Mile. You didn't know I would get that though, did you?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  I wasn't too sure.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  The dog appeared to have been left alone for hours, but possibly even days. There was feces near the back door. Connie entered the bedroom and stepped over some blankets on the floor, then found Marty on the floor in a pool of blood. Glenna was lying under the blankets. She was pale and her hair was matted in blood. I mean, I, I don't even know how you can imagine walking into this scene.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  These are your neighbors, apparently friends they were close to, and.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  I mean, it appears to be a pretty horrific crime scene.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Be very difficult to process.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. So Connie believed that both of them were dead and she ran to a nearby house for help. She returned with three firemen who were responding to an incident nearby. When she re-entered the room, Connie thought Glenna's head was in a slightly different position. But she didn't say anything because she wasn't sure. She thought it could just be her imagination.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  So I, I think, you know, if you just kind of break it down, right? She knew without a doubt that, you know, Marty's dead. He's lying in a pool of blood, but the description she gave of Glenna, you know, pale, matted blood in her hair, you would look at that. She's not moving. You would think, oh my gosh, they're both dead.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  But now she comes back and she's like, oh, her head seems to have moved, but I could be imagining that. I'm not going to, to point it out.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I mean, she probably is going through some shock at that moment, too.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, some trauma. It's gotta be a traumatic event for sure.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  So, you know, she has to think about, what did I really see when I first came in?

• 22:53Speaker 00

  And what do I want to say?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Right? The firefighters were in the home for a short time before they made the decision to back out of the residence. Because it appeared to be a crime scene, according to police reports. The victims also appeared to be dead. And I, I can definitely see how they would make that assumption.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  And it doesn't appear to be accidental that you have two people dead, right?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not going to be accidental.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  When police arrived, Connie assisted by dealing with the couple's dog, who had curled up next to Marty and was growling. And, and, and you hear that, right? You hear about that dogs trying to protect their, their owners or not wanting to leave their owner's side after they die.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  And it's sad, it is that number one, the person has died, but then number two, it's sad that the dog is like, thinks that, you know, they have to try to protect them, or I don't know if they know that the person is dead. I don't really know what dogs are thinking in that situation, but it's very sad.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  It is sad.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  When Connie heard an officer speak to Glenna, she turned in that direction and was shocked to see her sit upright.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  So we just mentioned, right? Shock, a little bit of, of trauma, or a lot of trauma, traumatic situation. Okay. Now all of a sudden, this person who you thought was dead is sitting upright and that's gotta be a different kind of shock.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think it shocked her and probably the firefighters and everybody else.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Cause they thought she was dead as well.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Marty was confirmed dead at the scene from multiple gunshot wounds, but Glenna had survived a gunshot wound behind the right ear. It took an hour for an officer to check her pulse to confirm if she was alive or dead. So that tells me they thought that she was dead too.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Upon, you know, arriving at the scene, if it took an hour for them to even confirm.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Like, I don't know. She's dead. No, she's not. Yes, she is. No, she's not.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Well, obviously, once they did confirm, then that's when she must've sat up and because they're talking to her at that point. Michigan State Police Trooper Sergeant Gary Wilson was trying to coax the couple's growling dog outside when he thought he saw Glenna breathing. He went to check her pulse. As soon as he touched her, her eyes flew open and her body jerked.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  I'm getting freaked out just thinking about, I mean, this is like something that you might see in some type of scary movie.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Well, you gotta wonder, is it just a? You know, like a muscle memory reaction or something, you know, when people die, sometimes their bodies move, right?

• 25:55Speaker 00

  I don't, I'm not sure that muscle memory is the correct term for that.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  There's probably not.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  I know what you're saying. There is movement in certain muscles even after death.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Some type of reaction.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  But I, I don't know if, you know, eyes opening is one of those muscle movements. Apparently she asked the officer, what are you doing?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right now I'm about ready to go clean out my jockey shorts because you just scared the you know what out of me.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Cause I kinda thought you were dead.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  And, and it was said that she was confused. She was combative. Sergeant Wilson couldn't tell how severely injured she was because she wouldn't stop moving. And it was said that she continued to be combative during the ambulance ride to the hospital. She asked multiple times as she was being restrained, why are you doing this Marty?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Okay. So she definitely was confused.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Or she was putting on a show.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Or putting on a show.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  There's really only, you know, one, uh, one or two, or a couple of options there. She also complained that someone was stepping on her hair as she was being carried out of her home. A neurosurgeon found two bullet wounds on the right side of her skull that were non-lethal and could possibly result in no loss of consciousness, allowing her to be ambulatory.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  So, I mean, this is such a strange scenario.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  It is.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  You know, she's acting as though, well, she's acting, let's be honest, like she wasn't even alive, right? At the time people were in there. And then when she does kind of wake up, for the lack of a better term, it's like she doesn't know who's going, what's going on. She thinks it's Marty.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  She thinks somebody's stepping on her hair.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Either she's going through this, or she's really putting on a pretty good show.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Now let's talk about these two bullet wounds, right? Non-lethal and the neurosurgeon is saying most likely wouldn't even result in the loss of consciousness. So these really had to be like grazers.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Right, pretty minimal.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. When police first tried to talk to Glenn at the hospital, she yelled out Marty's name. Later she only gave brief responses and claimed she didn't know what happened. An autopsy determined that Marty was shot three times at close range. Two more shots were fired into his back and forearm. He had some hairs that were found in his right hand. So I, I think first off, I think police have to believe that this was some type of what? Home invasion? An intruder came in, shot Marty, shot Glenna, maybe she passed out.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think at first look, that's the direction you would go.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Investigators searched the house and found blood stains on the couch and bullets in the living room. There were several fired cartridge casings on the bed and one unfired cartridge. On the bedroom floor was a key to Marty's gun safe. A 22 caliber Ruger revolver, which was determined to be the murder weapon, was found under a love seat in the living room. But investigators also found a pillow with holes in it and Glenna and Marty's cell phones. So, I mean, all right, now what do you think? You know, for me, it's, does somebody come in, somehow get Marty's keys to the safe?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Get out a 22 caliber gun and shoot them both? And is somebody using a pillow possibly to, to muffle the sounds?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Or not to look at the person's face?

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, possibly, but would an intruder do that?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  No, I think the intruder would do what you said. They would use it to muffle the sound.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then what do you make? They don't take cell phones. It doesn't sound like, at least from what we know, there was anything really taken from the house. So you gotta wonder why somebody would do this.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Well, and I think if um you were an intruder and you used the gun you found there as the murder weapon, why would you leave it behind?

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's good thing. I mean, it's good thinking, I guess, but I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they're wearing gloves.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  I mean, right now, there's a, there's a number of different theories I think that you can take a look at, but those closest to the couple said that they thought it was unlikely that a random intruder attacked the couple. Marty was said to have been very wary of strangers, and he always kept the doors locked and deadbolt. Marty and Glenna were private people. They didn't have a ton of friends. They loved each other, but they did have some rough patches.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Everybody goes through some rough patches now and then.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  They do. I, I would say some people have rougher patches than others.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  True.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  If that, if that makes sense. Um, and some people, you know, they have great years for a while, and then things get rough. Some people, you know, it can be rough, and then things smoothed out as the marriage goes on. Every marriage is, is a little different. But one of the jokes that Glenna frequently made was that she was waiting for Marty to die, or she was going to kill him so she could collect his money and possessions. When she said this in front of Marty, he would laugh. It didn't seem to bother him.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  You know, it probably was funny to them.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  To them, to them being who?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  To them being, you know, her, you know, her and Marty, thinking that they're just joking about it. So as the friends hearing it, thinking, oh, they're just joking.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, to outsiders.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, until it actually happens.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  And then you're like, hmm.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Well, even to Marty, I can understand, right? Because he's probably not thinking that my wife would ever actually hurt me.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just wouldn't. I mean, if your wife joked around like and said something like that to you, if I was around, I would laugh like.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, right. Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Been married 30 years. I mean, if she wanted to, she could have killed me at any time.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Just with her food.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  I'm, yeah, sorry. She's come close a few times.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I'll pay for that one.

• 32:45Speaker 00

  And not on purpose. I'm gonna make sure she listens to that during the editing. Relatives told investigators that the couple's main source of income were payments Glenna received from the state and her husband's supplemental security income. So, I mean, they didn't work, right? Marty wasn't able to work. Glenna didn't work because I think she had to take care of Marty.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  So they were, you know, being supported by state funds or federal funds, one of the two. According to a police report of an interview with a relative, Glenna indicated that Marty was a pain to take care of, and one of these days she was gonna kill him. So she's joking about it to neighbors and even in front of Marty. And then she's also saying that very same thing to relatives. Is a lot, right?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  It is.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  I'm gonna kill him.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  I mean, the problem is, hey, I understand, you know, when somebody goes through that type of an event and now you have to take care of them. Because, you know, when you get married, you sign up for better or for worse.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Or till death do us part.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Or till death do you part. So, there you go.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Do they even say that stuff anymore?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know. It's been a long time since I've.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, for me, 30 years. I have no idea what they say.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  My, my oldest daughter is getting married in a couple of months, so we'll see what they say.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Find out, yeah. Some, a lot of times today, they come up with their own, their own vows. You know, like.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  That might not be great in every scenario.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Probably not.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  According to Marty's daughter, he wore a leg brace and, and could walk, but he needed Glenna to drive him to appointments. His disability hindered him more as he aged, but he still enjoyed hunting. And let's face it, we're all hindered more as we age.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Regardless of what type of disability you might have, I feel very hindered sometimes when I wake up in the morning.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Takes you a little bit of time to get going.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Marty kept about 20 long guns and several handguns in a large safe in the home. Some of those he was holding for his father. So, you know, what that tells me is 20 long guns and then just a few handguns, that kind of screams out, you're a hunter.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Because you got a, you got a ton of long guns. Family and neighbors also noted that the home was in foreclosure and that the couple frequented casinos. Marty's mother, Lillian, said he was unaware he was in foreclosure until she notified him about the newspaper listing. So, you know, we talked about some of this stuff already, but now it's like being found out by the authorities as they're doing the investigation. And you have to think with every kind of little nugget, right, that they're uncovering, it has to start leading them to believe that, you know, maybe Glenn had something to do with this.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when you think about the foreclosure action, look at the finances, I mean, you have to kind of lean into that direction somewhat.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, you gotta think it's at least a possibility, or it's gotta be ruled out, right, at the very least. The day after Marty was found, his three children used a credit card to pick the lock and search the home. On the living room floor, they found an envelope labeled "personal" and Jane Waringa, who is Glenn's mother. They opened the sealed envelope and found three more envelopes addressed to Glenn's two children and her ex-husband, Bob Norman. Norman was asked to take care of their kids. In the letters addressed to her children, Glenn asked for forgiveness. She wrote, per the Detroit News, "I'm sorry,

• 36:48Speaker 00

  but I love you. And so sorry I've been a disappointment to you these last 12 years or so. Please forgive me. You're one of the best things I ever did. Love, Mom." All right, what do you think if you're the kids reading this?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, sounds like she met to take her life.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  That sounds to me like a suicide letter.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  It really does. Marty's children found ripped up foreclosure papers among Glenna's belongings. They speculated that the issue may have led to a fight that escalated. Marty's children called the police to report what they found. Now, I found this very strange, right? Because you have this, what appears to be, to me, a murder scene. At the very least, a crime scene, but to me, it's a murder scene. And, okay, did they not search the house? How did they not find this, this envelope? Also, did they not seal up the crime scene? I mean, what's going on here?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Because they're just able to use a credit card, get back in there and find something that police didn't know about?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems a little strange.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  It does.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  That they were able to find these things. I mean, I mean, we've all used credit cards to break into places. So that's, you know, not that strange to hear, but.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Okay, it is to me. I've never done it.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  First of all, I don't want to break my credit cards.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Membership card, credit card.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  I'm just assuming you have specialized tools.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Oh, have those. Sometimes it's just easy to use that plastic card, you know? You don't have to break out those special tools.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  So, you know, the kids called the police, say, hey, we found these envelopes. Here's what they said. But they didn't mention that they found cash in the couple's safe. They found $225 in an envelope labeled Mount and $1,200 in an envelope labeled Wave Runner.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Okay. Mount, maybe because he was going to mount one of his hunting trophies?

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, possible. I would think more maybe a mount for a new scope or.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that's true.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Something like that.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  But to me, these are saving envelopes.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Because my wife used to do this very same thing.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Keep those envelopes and fill them full.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  She would have multiple envelopes and she'd write on them.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  For what she wanted to save up for, what we needed to save up for. This is before, you know, a lot of banks started allowing you to have like sub accounts.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Because now she has a bunch of different accounts and she labels them, whatever.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a. Mike's not supposed to know about.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  The other one Mike's not supposed to know about. Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  And one's for the, the kids' tuition.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  But, um, you know, any time I see something like this though, when you go back to like an intruder theory, well, we know someone was in the safe.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Whoever killed Marty was in the safe.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  We know they didn't take cell phones, but here's like $1,400 just sitting in a couple of envelopes. Is an intruder not going to see those or at least look in those envelopes and take that money?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  You would think they would.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't they?

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't, I can't imagine why they wouldn't. Detective Sergeant Scott Rios learned about the missing money from Glenna's side of the family. Marty's children admitted to taking it. When asked why they hadn't told the police earlier, they said the police hadn't asked.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Which I understand they're saying, if the police would ask, we would have told them. Maybe, but why wouldn't you just say it right out from the very beginning? Cause it could make a difference in how the case is looked at.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  It could, but I also get it, right? You want that money. But, and I go back to my other point, which is the police have already been in there.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  How did they not find it? How did they not find these other envelopes? Right? Now, maybe they were set to come back and do a, a more thorough search. But if that was the case, then you would think that the crime scene would have been more sealed. I get it. The door was locked, but.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe more secured or had an officer on duty. Yep.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  Somehow. Now, if they did do a complete search, it, it obviously wasn't a very thorough. While the police were investigating the deaths, they were contacted by Fran Phelan, the wife of one of Marty's cousins. In a meeting with police the week after the shooting, Fran said she did psychic readings. She began reading from a notebook and told Trooper Barry Wolf, it was important to look under the couch or love seat of the Durham home. She also said Marty and Glenna were right-handed and their hands were important to the investigation. And I've talked about psychics. You know how I feel about psychics.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  But, okay.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  I don't know how she's coming up with this, you know, why it's important to look under the couch. Now, them being right-handed, you don't have to be a psychic to know that, right? She's a cousin. I mean, she's not a person who doesn't know them, is not related to them. Yeah. You could also make an argument that the, the hand, whether a person is right-handed or left-handed, is important to an investigation where shooting is involved. True. Cause you're trying to figure out if the, the suspect is right-handed or left-handed. And we mentioned it, right? The murder weapon was found under the love seat and Marty was

• 42:40Speaker 00

  clutching a clump of hair in his hand. Fran was then asked where she was at the time of the shootings. She provided an alibi that she was with her daughter. She also expressed her belief in Glenn's innocence. And I, I understand why they would want an alibi from her. You are basically giving information that possibly you shouldn't have known. Now, maybe she really is psychic. I, I don't know, but you could also be the killer. Very true. And that's how you know that, that information. During probate hearings where Glenn and Marty's children fought over his possessions, Fran testified on Glenn's behalf. And these hearings,

• 43:24Speaker 00

  it was said, really caused a lot of friction between the two families. They can. And they, they often can, right? You have someone who dies. There are people who want possessions, whether it's out of greed, or I think oftentimes it's just out of, they've lost their loved ones and they want certain things that remind them or have sentimental value. Kind of like self-preservation? I don't understand that at all. How is that? How is wanting something that's sentimental, self-preservation? Well, I mean, uh,

• 44:02Speaker 00

  preservation. Let me backtrack. Of that, those things for yourself. That's what you mean by self-preserving them for yourself? Did I mention? Self-preservation, okay. I mean, I understand what you're saying now. You want what you want.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Self prevent.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  That'd been the quicker way to say it.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  I guess. I don't know. After a probate hearing in July 2015, Marty's brother Dan Durham wrote to Fran's husband Scott, "You should keep a loaded gun at your side because who knows what can happen? Look what happened to Marty."

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Uh, okay. I mean, that's, um, to me, it's a, it's a threat. Now you could say, I think the person making it could make an argument, "No, it's not a threat. I was just saying, hey, you know, you, you should be safe. Look what happened to Marty." But to me, I'm taking that as a threat.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  After a probate hearing in October 2015, an arrow was left at Fran's home with the message, "You're next," written on it.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Now, if that's not a threat, I don't know what is.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  But definitely seems like a threat.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  Pretty hard to make any other reasonable conclusion, right? Out of that one. Police did not provide updates on Glenna's condition, but it was later reported that her injuries required months of rehabilitation.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  So, you know, we kind of talked about maybe they were grazing type wounds, but now you find out that, okay, she had to go through months of rehabilitation. They might've been quite a bit more serious than, than first thought.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Although she wasn't available for questioning, they were looking at her as a suspect. Her phone data showed that from 3:32 to 4:48 a.m. on May 12, 2015, her phone was used five times to look up information about Ruger guns. And we've already said, right, the gun in his safe, the gun that was used was a 22 Ruger. The searches included Ruger safety announcements, Ruger inside and out, Ruger safety blue book, Ruger safety announcements, again, apparently. At 3:28 a.m. on May 12,

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Glenna received a text from her mother responding to the earlier message. At 4:48, Glenna's phone sent a text to her mother that said, "Love you. Sorry."

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Hmm. Those are going to get. People's attention.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  They are, but normally not at four forty eight in the morning, unless you're an early riser.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Most people don't stay up that late.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  I mean, if my phone goes off, I'm gonna hear it.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  You don't put your phone like on silent at night?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  No, because what if like, one of my kids needs me? I want to be able to pick the phone up and be like, what do you need?

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have a, I, I think I have something where I'm on silent, but people, contacts that I have, if they call, it'll ring through.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  I think there is something like that.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't want to, like, every email and message.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't hear, that does somehow.

• 47:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  During sleeping hours.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Because I would never sleep. It would just be a constant.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  You know, barrage, but you know, it, these texts, right? Love you, sorry. Okay, well, you could take that a couple of different ways. What are you sorry about that you didn't get back to me maybe?

• 47:49Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  As quickly as, as you wanted to, or knowing what we know was in the letters, is it a little more than that?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but would you think that right away if you saw this? I don't know.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Not if you didn't have the context.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  No, not if you didn't have the context. Nine seconds later, the phone accessed a webpage titled Ruger New Model Single Six, Single Action Revolver. And then there was no further web activity or outgoing texts after four fifty five AM on May twelfth. So, I mean, I think if you're the police and, and you get this information, what, what are you making of it? And, and for me, it's that, okay, maybe she didn't know a lot about this Ruger twenty two, and she was looking some information up, but she obviously was involved in this shooting.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you'd have to come away with that piece.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  It's not like she was shot and then somehow used the phone to look up information on the gun she was shot with.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  I mean, this had to have happened before she was shot, and you would think before Marty was shot as well. In June two thousand fifteen, Glenna's mother told the police that her last memory was three days before she was found. And that can happen.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  It can.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  I don't know how common it is, but things like that do happen where people lose periods of time.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  You just hope that it was a good memory.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  What?

• 49:28Speaker 01

  The last time, the last memory you have, you hope it's a good memory.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Oh, the one that was three days prior?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  I don't know why. It's not like 50 first dates. It's not like every day is gonna be that memory or Groundhog Day.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I got you.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  You're gonna have new memories moving forward.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Okay, I don't know. You, you get me sometimes, or you, you lose, I'm lost.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's understandable.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Cause I'm not operating at this mental level. I can't stay with you.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get it though, you know?

• 50:04Speaker 00

  We'll see. They'll let me know if they do or not.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  At least somebody out there gets it.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  They probably will say they do because they're, you know, Team Gibby. I understand exactly what Gibby's saying. Glenna's mother also said that that apology text that Glenna sent was apologizing for failing to, you know, follow through on some earlier plans and losing money at the casino. So, we talked about it being almost like a, maybe linked to the letters.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Which all kind of appeared to be, I guess, suicide letters. I don't know how else to say it, but Glenna's mother said, no, that's, you know, it was this. It wasn't, you know, anything to do with that. Glenna was interviewed by state police in October 2015 with her mother present. She claimed she didn't recall writing the letters found in her home, but they sounded like things she had written in the past for her children's birthdays. She also said that if she had written anything to her ex-husband, it would have been to kiss my ass. This is according to the Detroit News. Now they left out the ass part. I'm filling that in, but, okay.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Kiss my ass.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  Why would you tell the police that?

• 51:25Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Now, she did maintain that she would never kill Marty because, quote, "He was all I had, and I'd be better off divorcing him and leaving him." Now, you could make that argument depending on life insurance, right? Which we haven't talked about yet, but if there's a lot of life insurance, then maybe you're not better off divorcing.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Maybe not.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  Because let's not forget, right? The only money she was bringing in was for taking care of him.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that $3,000 and some dollars to take care of him every month.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  So what happens in a divorce settlement? He doesn't have a lot of money coming in. It's not like she's going to get some huge alimony or anything like that.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  And she's probably not going to be taking care of him at that point anymore.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Yes, so she's not going to get that money. So I, you know, you gotta kind of take that with a grain of salt. She said they also had plans for the future, like a Memorial Day vacation. Glenna expressed her wish that she had died so that they could be together. She was also questioned about her cell phone search history. She responded that she didn't look up any information on the gun. And if she was on her phone, she would have been playing games online.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  So who did it? The killer?

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Somebody had to do it.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  The killer grabbed her phone and looked up information about this gun. Possible? Yeah, maybe possible. The detective told her police couldn't identify any other possibilities for what could have happened. Glenna responded with, "I'm thinking you already got me guilty, and I wouldn't have hurt him." In January 2016, New Wego County Prosecutor Robert Springsteen announced his office was nearing the final review of the case. In an interview with the Grand Rapids Press, Marty's daughter Jessica revealed that she formed an opinion about what happened soon after her body, or her father's body was found. And she found three suicide letters signed by Glenna. And I get that.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Because that's the same kind of thinking that I had.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  When we were talking about the details of what was found.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  You know, it did seem to me to be that either Glenna shot Marty and tried to end her life, which is why she wrote the letters, or she shot Marty and then made it seem as though an intruder had shot her too. It was really, to me, only two variations.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Either she did, did it this way, or she did it this way to throw people off.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Yes. The problem with the second one is then why write the letters? There would, to me, there would be no reason to write the letters.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  So I'm leaning, based on the evidence, more towards the, she tried to end her life, but was unsuccessful. By May 2016, no arrests had been made. Marty's side of the family was frustrated and they wanted Glenna arrested. I don't think there's any doubt, right, that they thought she was responsible. During the investigation, several people asked the police whether they had interviewed Marty's parrot. And I know we're talking about death, we're talking about, you know, possible murder here, but there's no way that that's not humorous, the parrot part.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I chuckled right when you said it, you know?

• 55:13Speaker 00

  And I, I get it, you know? If you're a police officer, if you're a detective and a family member calls up or they stop in and they say, have you interviewed Marty's parent, parrot? I almost said parent because that sounds more logical.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  It'd be hard to keep a straight face, I would think.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I wonder if you hypnotized, if you hypnotized the parrot.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  So Marty had an African gray parrot named Bud, who was said to be intelligent with a good memory. And some of them are just extremely intelligent. I've seen a lot of videos on YouTube. Some may be real, some may be AI. I can't tell half the time.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  You have that problem right now.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  I do. I do not like AI because some of the things that I think are really cool, I show my daughter and she's like, no, that's not real.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  It's not real.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  And then I'm disappointed because I thought it was really cool. Marty's ex-wife Christina Keller took ownership of Bud after his death because she had him during their marriage. She reported that Bud was repeated, repeating things like, "Don't effing shoot" in Marty's voice.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  So, you know, some parents can mimic.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  They can.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  Christina took a video of the parrot saying things like, "Shut up, get your blank over here, and don't blanking shoot."

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Effin'.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, okay. You know, where is the parrot getting this from? Either the parrot watches a lot of movies, or the parrot was a witness to what happened to Marty.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, if you're the defense team, you're gonna really lean heavy on, "They let the TV on all the time."

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. But if he really is kind of mimicking Marty's voice, then you would have to say, right, the prosecution's gonna lean into that.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, they should.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  The parrot's voice changed back and forth. It was said as if he, as if he was imitating an argument between Marty and someone else. Gibbs, you and I have done a lot of cases.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  We have.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  I've never heard of this, ever. Now, I've never had a parrot. I know they're amazing birds. They can do a lot of things. Christina was alarmed, but she didn't tell anyone outside the family for months. And I kind of understand that because how do you even bring that up?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  It'd be a tough conversation to start, but I kind of think you should.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get that you should, but how do you? Because, I mean, you could be laughed at, you could be wrong, and then you could be pointing the finger at somebody who's potentially innocent.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  True.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  The family sent the video to W O O D TV in the spring of 2016, which garnered international attention. And it was just three weeks later, on June 24, 2016, authorities announced that Glennon Durham had been charged with murder. Prosecutor Robert Springstead said police suspected Glennon early on, but there were things that needed to be cleared up before pursuing charges.

• 58:35Speaker 00

  Prosecutors argued that Glenna killed Marty in a botched murder-suicide because of financial problems exacerbated by her gambling. And again, that's what I initially kind of thought based on the evidence. You know, to me, having seen nothing in the reporting about life insurance, it didn't seem like this was for like the gain of money. She wasn't going to gain money from Marty's death. It was more like she had painted herself into a corner.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  And things had gotten so bad that she was about ready to be exposed and Marty was going to find out and she just didn't know what to do or she couldn't live with that. Is the way that it seemed to me. On July 19, 2017, Glenna Durham was found guilty of first degree murder and a felony firearm charge. She was sentenced to life in prison on August 28, 2017. So, I mean, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, this is a case where you have a talking parrot.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Who appears to have been a witness to a murder.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  And ultimately, I think it goes a long way in her being charged because she's not charged until after Christina comes forward with this video, right, of the parrot.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Really hoping the parrot's name was Polly, but it wasn't.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  No, it was Bud, which to me is a better name.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  I kind of liked the Bud name too. Yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't know why. While the video of the parrot was not directly used to secure conviction, it was evident that the animal witnessed and remembered the death of his owner. And I think it definitely further cemented the family's kind of thoughts that Glenna was involved. So I, you know, it's, it's such a strange case. Not that a wife would kill her husband. I mean, we have done plenty of those. Not that it would be done for some financial reason. Now, normally it's financial gain.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  That we're talking about. In this case, it's more of financial ruin that she doesn't want to be exposed. But there's no way around it.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  And so she's going to kill Marty. She's going to shoot her and kill herself. And then she's not going to have to deal with it. I guess is it was her thinking.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  But it seems like.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  That's what it seems like. But you know, to have this kind of talking parrot be a part of the case, any part, any type of part of this case. Um, it's just fascinating to me. That, you know, it's, it's quite a while after the murder. And this parrot is having a conversation between two people. One of them apparently sounds like Marty.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  And I'm just blown away by that.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  I wonder, you know, if the parrot has any.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  PTSD?

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, probably.

• 1:01:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Probably. That coupled with like the loss of his owner.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm sure they go hand in hand, but such, just a strange, fascinating case. But that's it for our episode on Glenn Durham. You got anything else?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  All right. And that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.