Christina Sanoubane

Christina Sanoubane was stabbed to death days after leaving an abusive relationship and moving into a new home for a fresh start. Christina’s ex-boyfriend was the first person questioned, but when he presented a verifiable alibi, authorities turned to alternate suspects. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Christina Sanoubane. Police looked heavily into her ex, but they also focused on one of her neighbors and a man who ultimately discovered her body. One of these men started changing his story, which ultimately led the police to lock in on him. Once the evidence began to mount, it painted a very disturbing and grisly picture. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 490 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm good, man, and you?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  Doing great.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Great.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Great. Like Tony the Tiger great?

• 0:58Speaker 00

  I don't know if I'm that good because that's a, that's a really...

• 1:01Speaker 01

  That's a great, great.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  That's a great, great.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  But I'm doing really good.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Now you're just downgrading yourself from great to I'm doing good.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  Because then I think of that kind of great, I don't know if I'm that good.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  You don't need that type of pressure, eh?

• 1:13Speaker 00

  I don't need that kind of pressure. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Andrew Bonham.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Hey, Bonham, man, I'm wondering if he's good with the drums.

• 1:21Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  Jessica Kramer Gregory.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Well, hey, thanks, Craig Gregory.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Stacy Coral Leyva.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks, Stacy, love your mom.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Ashley.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Hey, Ashley.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  Tim Moran.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Hey, Tim.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Lori Quatro Cioci.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Quatro Cioci, I just want to say it one more time. It just sounds so much fun to say.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Eventually you'll get it right. I don't even know if I got it right, to be honest with you.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Probably neither one of us.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  No, and last but not least, L Miller.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  This is a tough name to get. I think you pronounce it as Miller.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Miller, and then if we go back into the vault.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  This week, we selected Brittany.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  What up, Brittany?

• 2:00Speaker 00

  So, we appreciate all the support we get.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  We have a new episode right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about Rico Harris. And he was a former Harlem Globetrotter. Left his mom's home in California in 2014. And he's never been heard or seen from since.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Remember that Harlem Globetrotter music every time they were getting ready to come out on the court?

• 2:26Speaker 00

  I don't know exactly how it goes, but yeah. I used to watch them because they, they used to be on television. You know, they play that one, that same team all the time.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Washington something.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Washington Generals or something like that. And they just get, you know, they get trounced.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Love, love going to, I used to go watch them play.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  At, uh, Har arena back in the day. Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Was that the whole story?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  That was pretty much it.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Okay. For some reason, I thought there was going to be more to it.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  No, that was a big story.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  We also have a, a new episode coming out Thursday. And it's on Michelle Hunley Smith. And this is a different type of TCAT episode. It's fascinating though. Michelle Hunley Smith went missing in 2001. And then she was found just a couple of months ago.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  2026. And her family had no idea. And it turns out she was living, you know, a couple of hours away.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  I'll be curious to see, um, the comments on this one, on our, uh, different social media pages.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is a different type of case. It's also kind of still unfolding.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  It is.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  So, you know, she's got some court dates coming up and things like that. But it's a fascinating episode.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Really is.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I am.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  We're talking about Christina Sanoubane. Christina Sanoubane was stabbed to death days after leaving an abusive relationship. And moving into a new home for a fresh start. Christina's ex-boyfriend was the first person questioned. But when he presented a verifiable alibi, authorities turned to alternate suspects.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Christina Sanoubane was born on November 21st, 1979 in Des Moines, Iowa. She grew up in Cedar Rapids. Growing up Christina told her mother that she didn't want to be a doctor or a lawyer. Like they had hoped, she wanted to be a journalist and work in the news industry. In high school Christina started hanging out with people who did drugs and she experimented with marijuana, meth and cocaine.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Hey, look, I mean, high school, some marijuana, maybe some speed, maybe, you know, some of that white powder might find your way back, back in my day, but.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Boy, you are really telling on yourself right now.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, you know, people that, you know, would have been around me at that time, not saying I did.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  But meth, you know, man, I think that's a whole nother level.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, we don't, I can only speak for myself. I don't have experience with meth, but from everything we've heard, learned, you know, a drug like meth, man, it can really grab you.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  It can't, I mean, we have a really good listener that got it, had a really big, big problem with meth and, you know, he found his way out of it and now he goes around, he helps people, you know, with, with addiction recovery.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  That's awesome because that's, that's the really the best people to do it because they've been there.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  They know how bad it is and they know what it's like.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  His stories that he tells is, oh, man.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  I can only imagine. So Christina's plans to become a journalist were put on hold when she got pregnant, her senior year of high school. She dropped out of school and moved in with her boyfriend, Jacob Cross, her baby's father. She gave birth to a son named Corbin. I did think it was, you know, just a little strange that, you know, growing up, she wanted to be a journalist. You know, a lot of kids, okay, doctor, lawyer, you hear that a lot.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, astronaut.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Astronaut, sure, fireman. Journalist, I don't know how many children think of that.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  No, I don't think a lot do. I mean, I mean, mine was a little more rare. I mean, to be, to want to be a proctologist.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  At such an early age.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And to practice as much as you did, I thought that was a little strange.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I walked into that one.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  After leaving school, Christina worked as a telemarketer for several years. Her relationship with Jacob was not a happy one. Jacob was physically abusive. Christina was often seen with bruises and was open about the fact that Jacob hit her. Christina's mother, Linda Sanoubane, recalled asking her daughter why she wouldn't leave Jacob for good. Christina told her she couldn't because she loved him.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we've heard this many, many times, you know, it's sad, but it's a fact that people stay in relationships that they probably shouldn't be in because they love the person that is hurting them.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, we've heard that. We've also heard that the very idea of leaving is so dangerous.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  That people are scared because of what they know their partner is capable. Christina was close with Sandy Smith, her supervisor at work. Sandy later testified that Christina came in with bruises or scratches and she confided that Jacob beat her. A couple of months before she died, Christina showed Sandy a four inch cut on her arm and said Jacob did it. Christina told Sandy she was trying to leave Jacob and make it on her own. So there's a couple of things here. Obviously, we're talking about violent domestic abuse, which we know is a major problem.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  But she was not secretive about what Jacob was doing to her. Her friends knew, her mother knew.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  I can put myself in that position of.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Finding out from my daughter that this was going on, I'm telling you right now, the shit is going to hit the fan.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  It's gonna be problematic, you know, I think what happens though, it, let's say you find out that that was going on. And you go over and you have words with your son-in-law.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Maybe even rough him up, right? Is she gonna be thankful? Or now she gonna be like?

• 9:09Speaker 00

  Or mad at me?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Mad at you and then decides to break contact with you because she doesn't want to lose him because now he's pissed at you.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a great point. Or does whatever I do come back to her in a negative way?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Well, that's a

• 9:27Speaker 00

  At his hands.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Pretty reasonable possibility.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  So I can sit here and say what I would do, but it might not be the right thing.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Wouldn't stop me from doing it, but

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  I'm sure there, like a lot of things I do, there are probably better ways to handle it.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Uh, I will agree.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  But i- it's such a major problem, right? We know it. Everybody knows it. Domestic violence.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  But it's also extremely nuanced and hard to stop.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  It's um, a tell that uh, has been told so many times, again and again.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  Jacob was arrested twice during their relationship. In 1999, he shot Christina in the face with a pellet gun. He was convicted of assault and spent just three days in jail.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  See, to me, something like that, it should be longer. Three days in jail, all that is doing is pissing him off. And he knows he's gonna be out in three days, but if you put him away for a year, that's gonna give her time to get herself together. And

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Move on.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, move on and maybe make him think about some of his decisions.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, now it would be different if the, if it was an accident. A verifiable accident, right? And he had no history of domestic abuse.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  But if they knew that and he only got three days, okay, I got a big problem with that.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he could have took her eye out.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  Now, she may not have wanted to testify against him.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Well, I'm sure she probably did.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  And that could have been, you know, part of the problem. I don't know, or part of the reason why he only got what he got. Christina kept a diary where she described her struggles and her desire to start a new life with her son. She wrote in one entry, he criticizes me. He puts me down and physically abuses me. After three years, I'm just starting to realize I was the only one in love.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, what a great point.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's heartbreaking.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  It is.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  And I think, you know, we talk about physical abuse, but oftentimes what comes with that is verbal, mental abuse as well. It, it, a lot of times goes hand in hand.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  I mean, she's being attacked on all fronts.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  On August 31st, 2000, Christine and her son moved into a duplex a few miles away from her old home in Cedar Rapids. The neighbor on the other side of the duplex was 29-year-old Carlos Robinson. Carlos lived with his partner, Tamika Sanders. Some sources described Tamika as his fiance, while others said she was his wife. They did have four children together. Carlos appeared to be a kind and helpful neighbor and even helped Christina's friend move heavy furniture into her apartment. Christina's father told the Cedar Rapids Gazette, he had misgivings about the duplex

• 12:31Speaker 00

  and invited Christina to move back in with them for a time, but she wanted her independence. And, and I could understand that. You know, a lot of people, once they've moved out, unless they absolutely have to, they really don't want to move back home.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  No, they, they like having that independence, right? They can do what they want. They don't have to worry about. Stepping on somebody else's toes, right?

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Especially when you're an adult, you're in your twenties, late twenties, maybe even early thirties. Who wants to have to go back home and, and live under at least some type of rules? Because as cool as your parents might be, there's still going to be maybe some questionings. You know, why are you doing that? Why are you buying this? And most people just don't want to put up with that. They don't have to.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And there's the problem like you have with your daughter that you're, she's going out buying Moose Track ice cream. And she comes home and you're sitting on the couch, eating it right in front of her. It's like her Moose Track ice cream and you're eating it. It's, it's a little upsetting.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Actually, the very opposite happens. I buy something for me and one of them eats it.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  And not just eats like a little bit of it. Once I go to get it, it is nowhere to be found. It's like we never ordered it because they've devoured it and they threw the carton in the trash.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  At least they're not leaving that, just that one bite left in it.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  I think that's even worse.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  It is worse.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Cause now you're just teasing me.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Four days after she moved on September 4th, 2000, Christina's friend Todd Hale stopped by the duplex. He was there to get the money she owed him for helping her move. Todd rang the doorbell, but Christina didn't answer. Todd returned several hours later. The door was locked, but when Todd looked through the window, he saw Christina's two-year-old son alone and crying. He thought he heard the child say, mommy's dead. Todd removed the screen from the window and climbed inside. He found Christina face down in a bathtub full of bloody water. Todd rushed outside and asked Christina's duplex neighbor, Carlos Robinson, to call 911.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  And you and I talk about in both TCAT and Unsolved, you know, instances where people find individuals deceased. And I don't know that there's going to be any situation like that, that is not going to be just absolutely completely shocking.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  What really got to me here, obviously you have a young mother who's killed and that's horrible. But you also have this two-year-old little boy, her son.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Who either witnessed what happened, or at the very least, saw his mother in that condition and then is relaying it to this guy that my mommy's dead.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  That's heartbreaking.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it is. It just hits me in the gut.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  Officers determined that Christina was stabbed to death. The attack started in the kitchen. Christina's sandals were in the middle of the floor. As if she was struck with so much force, she was knocked out of her shoes. There was a metal collar that might have gone on a frying pan handle on the floor. Three of Christina's teeth were also found on the floor.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Wow, she was hit hard.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is a very vicious attack. You're thinking about possibly being hit in the face with a frying pan.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  With enough force that it would lift you out of your shoes and also knock out a bunch of your teeth. It's a grisly thought.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  It is.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  No knife was found at the scene. It looked like the killer had tried to wash away some evidence. But there were still bloody bare footprints all over the bathroom floor into the kitchen and back. Something highly unusual was found in the bathroom. There were several hamburger buns on the bathroom floor. As if someone had opened a bag and dumped them out. The bag was not found in Christina's apartment. But the clip to the bag was found on the bathroom floor. It appeared the buns were opened in the bathroom and the killer possibly wrapped the knife in the bag so that it would not drip blood.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  So I gotta get this knife out of here. Let me grab this bag of hot dog or hamburger buns. I'll just dump them right here, put the knife in here and that's how I'm going to get this out of here without it dripping.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  But it's a strange thing to find at a murder scene.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Hamburger buns, you know, strewn all over the floor. Now, I think their hypothesis is a good one. That they were dumped out just so that the killer could use the bag. This combined with the bare footprints suggested the killer lived nearby. And wrapped up the knife so that there wouldn't be a blood trail leading to their house.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And that seems logical to me.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  There was no forced entry, nothing was stolen, which all suggested that robbery was not the motive. During the autopsy, the medical examiner found evidence that Christina was sexually assaulted. Her throat was cut so deeply that her trachea was severed. And it just gets worse and worse.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  It does.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  When the details, you know, are fully revealed, there was no toxicology screening. Because the medical examiner couldn't get enough blood for testing.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Wow, she bled out that much?

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Almost completely, I guess. The autopsy also noted the metal pellet still lodged in Christina's face. From the time Jacob shot her.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  They do only got, uh, three days for it.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  So she had not even gone to, to a medical facility to, to have that checked out, to have it removed. So, I mean, as you can imagine, right? Jacob was the prime suspect. He had a motive because Christina had recently left him. And we've talked many, many times. About this thought, and I think it's more than a thought, it's proven that, you know, one of the most dangerous times in these toxic relationships, in these abusive relationships is when, you know, the person being abused makes the decision that they're

• 19:28Speaker 00

  finally going to leave because that's when the abuser knows that they're going to lose the control they have and they become a even more dangerous person.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  That's typically when they start striking out.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  During questioning, Jacob claimed that on the night of the murder, he was 30 minutes from Christina's home, drinking with some friends. Two witnesses verified that he was with them.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes you have to say, well, how close are these friends to him?

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. But, you know, thinking that, okay, if it comes to it, they're going to get on the stand and testify to this. It's a fairly good alibi, right?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  I would say yes.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Compared to some people who say, well, I was at home alone that night. I don't really have anybody who can vouch for me. The medical examiner put Christina's time of death between 9:00 PM on September 3rd and 3:00 AM on the 4th. Investigators noted that not all of Jacob's night could be accounted for.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I mean, that is a healthy window of time.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  It is. I mean, it's what, six hours? And so, you know, if he's drinking with these friends and, you know, let's say he was there from, I'm just going to throw something out, eight to one. Well, there's still two hours in that scenario.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  So while the alibi is, is good, it's not airtight if you can't account for all of your time. The police also looked into Todd Hale, the friend who found Christina's body and her neighbor Carlos Robinson. The two men were familiar with each other because they had helped Christina move. And, you know,

• 21:21Speaker 00

  As we said, right, the ex-boyfriend, he's always going to be looked at. And I think especially so when there's a, a history of domestic violence.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  I think the person who finds the body also is always going to be looked at.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  At the very least, they have to be ruled out.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  It also makes sense that the neighbor in the duplex would be looked at.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, because he was in her place.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  Now, he was helping her move, but when you have no signs of forced entry, is he a person for whom Christina would have opened the door? And I think the answer is yes.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Right? Even though she hadn't lived there, this guy offered to help. She kind of knew him in a limited capacity. Investigators were suspicious of Todd's claim that he entered the apartment by climbing through a small window without disturbing the items on the entertainment center that was set up just below the window. They brought Todd to the duplex and asked him to demonstrate. He was able to climb through the window without disturbing items on the entertainment center, even in his heavy work boot.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  He said, I'll show you. Let me do it.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you know, what better way to kind of clear up this issue than to actually recreate it and prove that it can pretty easily be done exactly the way you said it happened?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like saying, if the glove don't fit.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  You must acquit.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you, when you tell the guy, hey, show us how you got through that window because we don't believe you. And he shows you, what, what are you going to chase now? You don't really have anything to go after.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, the attorneys really, they made a, a bad miscalculation in having him try the gloves on. No doubt about it.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Police brought Carlos Robinson in to give a statement. He was helpful and cooperative and said that he hadn't been back inside Christina's apartment since he helped her move on August 31st. And, and I know I've said it, Gibbs, but I'm fascinated by interviews, police interviews.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  And the tactics they use. Now, sometimes they go overboard. We've seen that in some cases, but you know, bringing these people in and even kind of asking them what you might think are benign questions. You're still locking them into things.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  You are.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  That if evidence later comes about that contradicts those statements, well, you've got them locked into some things. Once the interviews were complete, investigators focused on matching the footprints found at the crime scene. Jacob, Todd, and Carlos were asked to provide their footprints. Todd's were not a match. Jacob's were not a match either, but Carlos Robinson was brought back in on September 5, 2000. He wasn't treated as a suspect when his interview began. He was told the interview was just a follow-up to see if he remembered anything else. And he was asked to provide samples of hair, footprints, palm

• 24:40Speaker 00

  prints, fingerprints, and a cheek swab. He complied, but he seemed more reluctant than Jacob or Todd had been. After dipping his feet in ink, he was instructed to walk down one side of a large piece of paper, turn and walk down the other side. Instead of doing this, he walked over the footprints he had just made.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Like, you're not gonna be able to use these.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  When Carlos was left alone in the room to await the results, he got down on his knees and began praying, which investigators thought was unusual. And it might be, it might not be. To me, what's unusual is being given very clear instructions.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  And deliberately ignoring those instructions and walking back over the footprints you just made, essentially rendering them useless.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Or trying to render them useless.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, trying to. I mean, how else can you look at that other than you're trying to not give police a real sample of your footprint?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Two hours later, police learned that Carlos's footprints matched the ones at the crime scene and his palm print was also a perfect match to the bloody palm print found on Christina's bathroom sink. Additionally, his DNA matched the DNA from the sexual assault kit. And it goes back to me saying, you know, the police ask questions. Some of them might seem, you know, to not be that big a deal. But the one about him being in the apartment, and he said, no, I haven't been there since I helped her move in. Okay, you're really

• 26:33Speaker 00

  painting yourself into a corner when the footprints come back as matching yours.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  The bloody palm print comes back as matching yours. And obviously, we've got your DNA found inside the victim.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not good.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Is that your expert opinion? Not good? If you were an attorney, is that what you'd tell your client? It's not good. Not good.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  That's why you're paying me the big bucks, buddy. It's not good. We're in trouble.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  At that point, Carlos was given his Miranda warning. He made a shocking admission. He claimed that he and Christina had consensual sex on the night of September 3rd. He left the apartment, but at 9:00 PM, he heard bumping coming from her apartment and went to investigate. He knocked as he entered, then knocked on the fridge and coffee table as he made his way through the apartment. No one responded. He saw Christina's son near the bathroom crying and saying mommy. He saw Christina's body lying on the floor by the bathtub, but not in the tub. He stepped on something and slipped and perhaps grabbed on the sink

• 27:50Speaker 00

  to catch his balance. He ran home without calling the police. Carlos explained he was afraid that as a black man, he would be framed for murder. He insisted he wasn't the killer.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  And to me, this is the classic defendant tactic.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  I painted myself into this corner with previous statements. Now the evidence comes out that is refuting these statements. I gotta come up with something else. So now it is, yes, I was in the apartment. I had consensual sex. I walked through something slippery. I slipped, maybe, you know, grabbed on to something. You know, he's just, you're coming up with something or things to kind of explain every piece of evidence.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Trying to cover yourself.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just seems like it's classic. We hear it in, in case after case. As we mentioned, the medical examiner believed Christina died between 9:00 PM and 3:00 AM. Carlos was home alone that night with his children because his wife was away visiting her sister. She didn't get home until about 1:30 AM. But investigators still felt they needed more evidence to prove Carlos was a killer and not just a scared neighbor. After all, on paper, Carlos didn't seem like the prime suspect. He was practically a stranger to Christina, but she had a history of violent abuse with her ex-boyfriend. And you know, we said it, right?

• 29:34Speaker 00

  He's, he's going to be looked at hard and you have to believe police were really focused on him early on. And it would take a lot for them to veer away from him.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  An ex-boyfriend, the two had recently broken up. There's this history of domestic abuse, domestic violence. How could it not be him?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  But now they have a reason to shift away.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, Carlos does not look good, as you said, right? Things are not looking good for him.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  It is not.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  In your expert opinion. The fact that you charge $300 an hour for that as an attorney blows my mind.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  That's my friends and family discount, too.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  This is not good for you. This is not good for you. If you say it twice, that's $600.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  I got a double bill you now, buddy.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Investigators analyzing the crime scene evidence found something on the discarded hamburger buns. One of the buns was misshapen. Further analysis showed the indentation of a right toe, the second and third toe, and the ball of the foot. There were even ridges in the bread that resembled prints.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  That was some, uh...

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Soft bread?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  I don't, yeah. Um, so, you know, what are we? We're almost on episode 500.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Of TCAT. We've done almost that many on Unsolved. Every case, there's something we've never heard of.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. And this is one of them.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  Never heard of footprints being found in a hamburger bun.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  We got them because we have the prints on the hamburger bun. Book them.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Well, if these prints matched Carlos', it could prove he was the killer and had disposed of the buns to use the plastic bag to wrap up the murder weapon and transport it back to his house. The Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation Crime Lab analyzed the bread and confirmed it was a footprint, and that footprint matched Carlos Robinson. He was arrested and charged with murder on September 5th, 2000. And we've been talking a lot lately about circumstantial evidence. You know, even without this hamburger bun, could they have moved forward? Yeah, I think they probably could have, but does this help seal it?

• 32:04Speaker 00

  I think it, it does go a long way.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not going to hurt the case.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  No. I mean, he tried to give an explanation for some of the other things. But then now, how are you going to explain your footprint in the hamburger bun? Because he never said that he was in the bathroom.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  He said he was outside of the bathroom. He saw the sun. He saw her outside the tub. To see her inside the tub, he would have had to have been a lot closer.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  And maybe that's why he said that.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, thank goodness they were hamburger buns and not like Pita or Tostitos, because, you know, probably wouldn't have held a print like the bun did.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Tostitos as in tortilla chips?

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think those hold prints very well. I don't know about Pita, but I'm pretty sure hard tortilla chips don't do well with prints.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  I don't mean hard, I mean the.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Well, Tostitos are crunchy.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Well, okay, I meant.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Tortilla?

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Exactly what I was trying to say.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Okay, I got you.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Police searched Carlos's apartment and seized two t-shirts, two washcloths, one with a red stain, four knives, and a broken pan and handle.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  I mean, not the smartest guy, right?

• 33:31Speaker 00

  Not if these knives were involved, not if this is the pan used to hit Christina. And obviously, if the t-shirts or the washcloths, if the red stains turned out to be her blood, no, not smart. Investigators believed Christina, a trusting person, let Carlos into her home because she'd already met him. Once inside, he made a sexual advance that she rejected. He hit her with a frying pan, hard enough to knock out her teeth. He dragged her to the bathroom, assaulted her, and stabbed her to death. He filled the tub with water

• 34:15Speaker 00

  to try to wash away evidence, but he left behind his palm print and his footprints. After he fled the house, Christina's son was left alone for up to 24 hours.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  I mean, think about this guy, trying to be like the nice neighbor, you know, back in his house, his side of the duplex. He's got a wife and four kids, but he wants to come over here, assault her sexually as well, ends up killing her, and then he has the nerve on top of all that to walk past this young child, knowing that that child's going to be locked up inside that home for who knows how long. With his dead mom in the bathroom.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  And to me, it's not a coincidence that this happened while his wife was away.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  After the arrest was announced, Christina's uncle told the Gazette that she likely trusted Carlos because he was a married man. She had mentioned that the new neighbor had a wife and kids. Neighbors told the Gazette that Carlos Robinson was a family man who was often seen outside playing with his children. He and his wife were well-liked by their neighbors. And I can see how maybe that would make her a little bit more trusting, right? She's seen him outside. He's playing with his kids. His wife's there. He seems like a good guy.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Probably gentle with his kids. She's thinking, uh, he's a nice guy.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, he's not the lone stranger that you worry about or that most people worry about. They had been in Cedar Rapids for about a year. Carlos previously worked at a convenience store, but had recently started training for a telecommunications company. Neighbor Rich Roefler pointed out that Carlos never showed any anger, even when he and his family were subjected to racist remarks by former neighbors. The Gazette reported that Carlos and his partner Tamika Sanders were together for 11 years. Carlos pleaded guilty to assault in a May 1993 domestic abuse incident.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Court documents stated that his fiance told police he pushed her into a door, causing her to hit her head. He was put on self-probation for one year.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Always wonder how self-probation works. Hey, self, you're gonna be on probation?

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, self-probation is not a term that I don't think I've heard or seen a lot, but I get it. You're not tethered, right? You don't have a, an ankle monitor. And maybe you don't have to check in with a probation officer, but you're just on probation. So I guess if you do anything. You could receive charges for that in addition to whatever else you do.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Kind of like on the honor system.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Kind of.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Got to call yourself in.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Or basically just saying be good or else.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Now, you can argue what we argue a lot, which is, okay, what is this telling the person who has been abusive? And to me, it's that it's not that serious. If I do get caught, they're just going to give me a slap on the wrist.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  And so you're really not making it much of a deterrent.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Carlos's father, Timothy Robinson, senior, said it was a complete shock when Carlos was arrested. Carlos's mother, Pam Robinson, told the Gazette, "Our son is not the monster. He is still walking around out there somewhere." And I get that, right? It would be shocking if this person you brought into the world, you helped raise, committed such a violent crime. And I don't think it's that unusual for moms, dads to just not be able to believe that their son or daughter would ever be able to do something so heinous.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I think you're going to be in denial, right? Because that's not my son. My son doesn't do things like that.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  After several delays, jury selection for Robinson's murder trial started on November 26, 2001. In opening statements, prosecutors described the grisly scene Todd Hale found when he entered Christina's apartment on September 4, 2000. Christina had been struck with a blunt object, then taken into the bathroom. Her throat was cut and she bled to death. Her face down position suggested sexual assault. Carlos Robinson left a trail of evidence, including his footprints found in the house and on the hamburger bun he discarded in the bathroom. Prosecutors argued that Carlos was worried his wife would end their marriage.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  If she found out he made an advance towards Christina, so he killed her. The defense acknowledged that Carlos had sex with Christina, but it was consensual and happened after they smoked marijuana together. Carlos didn't tell police about the sexual encounter because he was quote, stepping out on Tamika Sanders, and he didn't want to admit it. They said that his footprints were in the apartment because he helped Christina move three days earlier. They were in blood because he returned to Christina's apartment to investigate suspicious noises.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  The defense argued that police did not fully explore other possible suspects, including Jacob Crowson. Three people, including Carlos's fiancee Tamika testified that they heard Christina's son crying. On Monday, September 4th, Tamika testified that Corbin was still crying when Todd Hale came to the house to collect a $25 debt from Christina. Todd climbed into the apartment through a window and found Corbin. The jury heard Carlos's 911 call where he told the operator, I'd like to report a debt. The guy said she was dead. She does drugs. And to me, it's that the third part of that statement.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  It seems strange. You have a woman found dead in her apartment and you feel the need to add on to the end of it. She does drugs.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Right. Like, hey, this is avenue you need to look down instead of looking at.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Me?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I just thought that was weird. Todd Hale testified that he helped Christina move on August 31st and returned on the 4th to collect the $25 she owed him. He made two trips to her apartment to collect his money.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I still think it's strange that people heard Corbin crying, but nobody really did anything. If he was crying that much, I don't know, wouldn't you go check on that if you were living next door?

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. Is it similar to the gunshot kind of theory that we talk about? You know, little kids cry. If you're in a duplex, you're probably hearing it a lot more than you would if you were in separate houses, right? An apartment, a duplex. You're sharing walls. Right. So maybe you're gonna hear it a little bit more. Tamika said she heard it on the day that Christina was found. So yeah, I don't know what you make of it. So Todd, you know, he's saying he made two trips. The first time at 11:30 a.m., he saw Corbin crying. The TV was playing loudly and he noticed crumpled blankets on the bed.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  He thought Christina might still be asleep and left. He returned at 6:00 p.m. because he was worried about Christina and her son. And he wanted his $25. There was no blankets on the bed and Corbin was screaming, so he climbed inside and found the body. Todd testified that Carlos helped him move four large pieces of furniture into the duplex, and he wasn't wearing any shoes at the time. He also testified that he didn't tell police that Carlos offered drugs to him and Christina, but he made that statement in a deposition months after the murder. Carlos Robinson got on the stand and apologized for not calling 911

• 43:00Speaker 00

  after finding Christina's body on the bathroom floor. But he maintained that he had nothing to do with her death. And her throat was not cut and she was not in the tub when he saw her. And to me, this is such a strange thing. You know, again, he has to try to explain away some of the evidence. But, you know, for you to believe this, Gibbs, you have to then believe that someone later comes in, Yeah. puts Christina's body in the tub and cuts her throat. Hard sell. It really is. Now Carlos admitted that he changed his story when confronted with the footprint evidence,

• 43:44Speaker 00

  and he didn't tell the whole story until confronted with DNA evidence.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Which, you know, I, you know, you say admitted, but to me, that's just changing your story to fit the evidence.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  He testified that he went to Christina's apartment shortly after 8:00 PM on the 3rd, while Tamika was out visiting her sister. They smoked marijuana, flirted, and had consensual sex twice on the kitchen floor.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  At once.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Twice.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Twice.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  I just want the jury to know what a manly man I am.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  I guess. During the second sexual encounter, he heard a male voice coming through the front door. He jumped up, grabbed his clothes, and in his words, "I just got the hell out of there." Carlos returned to his apartment shortly after 9:00 PM. His kids were watching TV. When they went downstairs to get water, he heard thumping and thought they were playing. But when he went down to check, he found that they weren't playing. He rode his bike to a convenience store to buy some beer for himself and candy for the kids. He was gone for about 15 minutes. He talked to his wife by phone around 10:00 PM. He told her about the noises coming from Christina's apartment, and she told him to check on her.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  He settled his kids and went over. He knocked on the door and called out hello as he entered. He knocked on furniture as he made his way through the apartment. The only light in the apartment came from the moon and a street light in the alley. He heard Christina's son, but he wasn't crying at the time. He walked into the bathroom and saw Christine on the floor, parallel to the bathtub. A dark substance was coming from her mouth. It wasn't gushing out, it looked more like drool, right? This is what he said on the stand. Christina twitched as if she was shivering. He knelt down to examine her.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  When he got up, he slipped in a dark substance on the floor and grabbed the sink to steady himself. He wiped his bare feet on a small rug in the kitchen on his way out. When he got back to his apartment between 10:30 and 11:00 PM, he checked on his kids, smoked more marijuana, drank a beer. He didn't want to call 911 because he didn't want Tamika to find out he had sex with Christina.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Well, why not go down to a payphone and maybe do a...

• 46:17Speaker 00

  An anonymous call?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 00

  I get that. I also thought it was interesting that Tamika was the one who told him to go check on Christina. And that is probably true, but most likely it's because of how much he's playing up these noises, right? That he's hearing from over in her place. So he's relaying this to Tamika. He's probably hyping it up. And then obviously, as anybody would be, she's concerned. And she says, Hey, you should go over there and check it out.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, check on them.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  But it's almost like he is, he's setting all that up.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  I also thought, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it's very strange to hear that, you know, he goes over to check on her, finds her in this state that obviously is not good. And he goes home, smokes some weed and drinks another beer.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, just chilling, knowing that there's a young child alone in the dark with his mother laying on the floor.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I'm very dubious that at that point, the child wouldn't be crying. You know, a child seeing their mother like that, and he's saying, well, you know, the child wasn't crying at that point. Seems so odd.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Carlos testified that he refused to sign a statement at his second interview because officers wanted him to say the body was in the tub, but he didn't find it that way. He testified that he didn't know whether Christina was dead or alive when he left her, saying, I had no idea what was going on in there. I didn't want to stick around and see. And I understand that if you're cheating on your fiance, or your wife, or your girlfriend, you don't want her to find out. But even if you had nothing to do with someone's death, how could you just leave them like that?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's just, there's a point where you have to put someone's life over.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  The consequences that might come about.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  For your actions. Let's face it, you did it.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  If that's the way it happened, we don't believe that. But according to his story. But again, that's why I find, you know, the, the stories that these people tell so compelling. First of all, they changed so much that it's hard to believe anything they say. But even it seems like every step of the way with every change, they don't make sense. They, they really don't. On December 12th, 2001, Carlos Robinson was found guilty of first degree murder. On April 12th, 2002, he was sentenced to life in prison. He said at sentencing is quoted by the Gazette, "I did not commit this crime. I know it, my family knows it.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Part of me knows that the San Uban family knows I didn't do it. Justice for me will be finding the real person who committed this ungodly crime." It's also to me, pretty presumptuous to speak for the family of the victim.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Oh, the family knows I didn't do it. Really? I'm sure the family would have an argument against that statement. Carlos has since appealed his conviction. In 2012, he filed an appeal seeking new DNA testing. According to Robinson versus State, Christina's vaginal swab showed the presence of DNA from a minor contributor who was not identified. Robinson argued that the evidence suggested Christina had sex with an unidentified person within a few days of the murder and that testing of items in storage could exclude him or identify the killer. So what's he saying, Gibbs?

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had sex with her that night multiple times. It was all consensual.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  But she most likely had sex with somebody else, let's say, a few days prior. That, that guy's probably the killer.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, that guy probably, probably did this.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Robinson filed a motion to order the Iowa Department of Public Safety to provide the DNA of individual A, a felon on probation, whose terms required him to give a DNA sample to the DOC. His 2017 appeal was rejected and in 2021, the Court of Appeals of Iowa affirmed the denial of his application. So as we wrap this one up, I mean, obviously. It is possible that he'll continue to try and appeal or to seek testing to somehow cast doubt on his conviction. I just don't know how it would though. I mean, yeah, you might

• 51:20Speaker 00

  eventually be able to identify this minor contributor.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  But I don't see how that alone is going to point away from Carlos being the killer.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  I mean, is there a possibility? Just saying. Carlos is being truthful. Hey, I went over there. We had sex together. I left. I heard this thump noise. And then you'd have to say, okay, well, what was that thump noise? Could it have been this person A?

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Who comes in and actually kills Christina?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Because they're upset because they seen that she just had sex with somebody else. And they beat her with the frying pan and then drag her into the bathroom and stab her and then leave. I mean, it could happen.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  But then how does he come back over and she's not in the bathroom? I mean, the bathtub. She's in the bathroom, but she's not in the bathtub. She's not stabbed. Her throat is not cut. His story just doesn't line up to me with with some of the other possibilities. I don't see any other possibility.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  The way that he's kind of painted himself initially into what he did and then later on tried to paint himself out of of some of those things with conflicting statements. But the conflicting statements paint him into other things.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Right? So you just keep locking yourself into stuff. It's different things because you're changing your story, but it doesn't answer all the questions and it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. So.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Is it, is it more likely that, yeah, she could have had a sexual encounter with somebody days before and that person had nothing to do with what happened? To me, that's way more likely.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  It would also explain why that, that person seem and is labeled as a minor contributor.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  And the major contributor is, is obviously Carlos Robbins.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  I mean, can you say that different things are possible? Yeah, you, you can say that, but are they likely or even close to being likely? And from my point of view, no, not really.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  And, and to me, they don't rise to that level that would cast reasonable doubt. If I was on the jury, now we may not have all the evidence, but based on what we do know and what we went through, I would have had a hard time not finding this guy guilty.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  And obviously the jury felt the same way.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. But that's it for our episode on Christina Sanoubane. We got a voicemail, Gibbs, you want to check that out?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Let's hear it.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Hey, my name is Steve Wunschel. I'm calling from Queensbury, New York. I'm a long time listener and a first time caller. I want to thank you guys because you did a phenomenal job for me during COVID. I was working in a small upstate New York hospital in a histology lab and I wound up working the place all by myself. So it was just me and you guys keeping me from losing my mind. So thank you very much for that. Now, what I enjoy about your podcast is the camaraderie and how you play off one another and your strengths and weaknesses and, and all that stuff. But that being said, I do identify with Gibby to some extent because correct me, I got me a bloody good Australian accent as well.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  I think Gibby and I could be drinking Nate someday. All right, I'm done embarrassing myself with that. Okay, I got a couple of cases for you might be interested in. One is a guy by the name of Kevin Jenks, who was murdered in Queensbury, New York. And the other case is Colin Gillis from Tupperlakes, New York. Now, we don't know if he's been murdered, but he's missing. So I don't know if that's if you're bailiwick or not, but I probably throw that out there. All right. So before I embarrass myself even more, all right, keep your hat on swivel, keep your own time ticking, watch your six and don't eat yellow snow, mate. Have a good day, guys.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  All right. Appreciate the voicemail. I, I can see why, you know, he, he does have a fondness for you. His Australian accent is about as bad as yours. Not, not, his was a little better, but uh.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  What'd you want to say, mate?

• 56:11Speaker 00

  It wasn't great.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, what do you mean? He said, don't eat yellow snow.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. I know. You eat it all the time.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  It's like frozen lemonade.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  It is.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  Oh, that's what I told you it was.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm confused.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  But it does seem like he's giving us, uh, possibly one for TCAT and one for unsolved.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that, man. I love that.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  We could have a, an all Queensberry week.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Queens, buddy.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  If we, uh, if we find enough information, but we'll definitely check them out.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  We will. Thank you.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 56:48Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.