Dernell Stenson

After years of grinding through the minor leagues, 25-year-old Dernell Stenson finally achieved his dream of playing Major League Baseball when he was called up by the Cincinnati Reds in August 2003. Just months later, while playing in the Arizona Fall League, Dernell was found brutally murdered in Chandler, Arizona—bound, shot multiple times, and run over by his own vehicle. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Dernell Stenson. Investigators initially believed he was the victim of a random carjacking, but the discovery of disturbing death threats sent shortly before his murder raised questions about whether there could be more to the story. As police followed a trail involving Dernell’s stolen SUV, multiple suspects, thousands of dollars in seized cash, and a complicated relationship from his past, they worked to determine how a promising young baseball player ended up the victim of such horrific violence. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 543 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm doing, as you would say, awesome. Awesome.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  It's good to hear.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  Because I usually, almost always, am doing very, very well.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Life is so fabulous, man.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Okay. Now you're laying it on a little thick, but hey. I like to hear it. All right, you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  So, we're talking about Dernell Stenson. After spending years playing in the minor leagues, outfielder Dernell Stenson was called up to the major leagues in August 2003. But just weeks after finally making his debut, he was murdered in what appeared to be a carjacking. And we'll talk about it, right, as we go through the story. But there are a lot of people who dream of playing Major League Baseball.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Or Major League anything, right? But baseball has a very rich history of this minor league system.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  And it's tiered. You know, they've got Single A, Double A, Triple A. And there are a lot of people who spend their entire careers in the minor leagues, and they just never make it to the majors.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  They get close, you know?

• 2:47Speaker 00

  They can get close. So they can come up for a little bit, and they just never do anything, and then they get sent back down.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  But you think about this guy, or anybody like him, you're working essentially your, your whole life.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  You know?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  You start playing baseball probably when you're six, five, six.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  T-ball. And at some point, you start to get that dream of playing in the, the major leagues.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  The closest thing to like the MLB that I can think of is like the MLC that I was part of, you know, the Major League Chess. They also have the minor leagues. And, you know, you work so hard in those chess games to eventually go from the, you know, the Single A to the Double A, the Triple A, and then hoping, hoping one day.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  For the major leagues.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  You get pulled up, you know?

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Well, I, I remember that time you played that lady from the, whatever, the Queen's Gambit.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  I mean, she stomped a mud hole in you, but.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  She did, but.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  You put up a somewhat of a good fight.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  I mean, it lasted more than a few minutes, so, you know?

• 3:58Speaker 00

  So, Dernell Stenson was born on June 17, 1978 in La Grange, Georgia to parents James and Corstenson. Dernell was the youngest of eight children. He was a standout baseball player at La Grange High School and attracted the attention of MLB scouts. I think that's the other difference, right, about baseball?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Is, you know, unlike football, basketball, you used to be able to do it in basketball. You can't anymore. You can go from high school straight to the pros.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Just boom.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  You, you can be drafted right out of high school. You can sign a contract. Now, most people don't play right away, but you can go right to the minors and, you know, earn money, get a big contract, and eventually be called up.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  I feel like, I feel like this is like a scene from the Moneyball.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe a little bit. I mean, when I played high school baseball, I had a couple of guys that I played with. Nobody was there looking at me, but there was a couple of guys on my team who were really good. One who ultimately did pitch in the majors. And it was not unusual to have Major League scouts at our high school baseball games.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Wow. Talking about pressure.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, not for me. I knew I wasn't going to play in the Major League.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  You're like, I'm still going to throw my shitty pitches and all that stuff. Don't matter.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I might throw 80 or whatever it was. I don't even know if I reached 80. I certainly wasn't throwing 95, 96. The Boston Red Sox selected him in the third round of the 1996 MLB draft, which was 91st overall. So, nothing to sneeze at.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Dernell moved quickly through the lower levels of the minor leagues, but it was a long path to the, the majors. And it is for a lot of people. Like I said, he made it to Triple A. And that's the highest level, right? Before you get to the majors. He spent parts of four seasons with Pawtucket, the Red Sox top minor league affiliate.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Guess that's kind of like the Dayton Dragons here? Aren't they?

• 6:07Speaker 00

  No, they're Double A. Or, I mean, they're Single A.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 6:10Speaker 00

  They're the lowest.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Oh, so there's, they got a couple notches to go before they get.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, the, the Reds Triple A is, I forget. There's one in Chattanooga that might be Double A.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Their trip, there's also one in Louisville. I get them confused.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Okay. But there's definitely some hurdles you have to jump.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. But you, you know, you think about the Dayton Dragons where we live. A lot of the guys who, you know, ultimately make it to the Reds, we, they come through here.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you really got to work hard.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Yep. It's just part of the process. He left the organization as a six-year minor league free agent. In August 2003, Dernell was called up by the Cincinnati Reds.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Whoa, how about that?

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Big Red Machine.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Big Red Machine, but, you know, they had kind of lost their luster by that point. You know, the Reds haven't been super good since, what? I was in high school? I think the year I graduated high school was the last year they won the World Series. But in the 70s, the Reds were.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Oh, dominated, didn't they?

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, they were pretty dominant.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Pete Rose.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Is that the, the one person you know?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Pete Rose, Johnny Bench.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, there was, you know, Joe Morgan. They, they had some good teams.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they did.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  The Big Red Machine. So, Dernell made his Major League debut on August 13, 2003, against the Arizona Diamondbacks. Three days later, he collected three hits in his first Major League start against Houston.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Pretty impressive.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  It is. You know, three hits in, in a game, that's a good feat, especially if it's your first start.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Pretty amazing. Later that season, he helped ensure the Reds' victory over Montreal with three catches in left field. A lot of people don't even remember that Montreal had a Major League Baseball team at one point.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I kind of forgot that myself.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  The Montreal Expos. I used to love them.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  They had, like, some really big stars. Andre Dawson.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, Andre Dawson.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Pedro Martinez was there before he, you know, went on to be really, really good with the, with the Red Sox. And then ultimately, I mean, I think now they're the, the team in Washington. I think they moved from Montreal to Washington.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  To Washington.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  If, if I'm thinking correctly. I, I could be wrong. I, I very often, yeah. But during his brief time in the MLB, Dernell would play 37 games for the Reds. His batting average was 247. He hit three home runs and recorded 13 RBIs. Now, a 247 batting average isn't great, but it's not the worst, right? 200 is kind of the demarcation line. If you're below that, they actually call it the Mendoza line.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Really?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  And it's named after some guy named Mendoza, for whatever reason, I don't know why.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Wouldn't you hate to be him?

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, yeah, for, forever, he'll be kind of immortalized as this guy that hit 200 or something, I think.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Well, you're the, you're the terrible baseball hitter guy.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Although I don't know that he was terrible. He, maybe he just hit it one year. I don't know why they named it after him. I, I really don't know. Dernell hit his final homerun on the last day of the 2003 regular season, September 28th, giving Cincinnati its final run of the year. And then he moved to Arizona to continue playing in the Arizona Fall League, which is an off-season league designed to showcase and develop young talent.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  That's smart. Keep them playing.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, guys that are still trying to really, really make it.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  They, you know, they play in that. He wasn't supposed to go there originally. He went only after another teammate was granted his, his wish to play in the Dominican Republic, per the Arizona Republic. Dernell planned on spending the off-season in Indiana with his pregnant girlfriend.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Well, Dominican Republic, they have a lot of good ballplayers there.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, the Dominican Republic actually turns out an amazing number of baseball players.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  They take baseball very seriously in the Dominican Republic. It's like some of the, the teams overseas that are, you know, so into soccer.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  It turned out.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  A ton of soccer players. For whatever reason, the Dominican Republic is very into baseball. Former MLB pitcher Mike Gallo said about the Fall League, every organization after every season, they have a chance to send three to four representatives there. You're playing against the best of the best. You get asked to go, you go. That's how pretty much everyone looks at the Fall League. If you put up your numbers there, you got your badge to play at the big league level.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay. So it's a definitely a thing you don't want to turn down.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  No, but you know, if you're a superstar, you're not going to the Fall League.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  This is for people that the organization is high on. You know, they want to give them a chance to get more experience, more bats, whatever it is.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Like a development thing.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Dernell joined the Scottsdale Scorpions alongside Mike Gallo. During the Fall League, he had a 394 batting average over 18 games.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Well, that's pretty good.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  That's amazing. You know, I, I think only once or twice has somebody, over the course of a, a year batted over 400. That's like nearly impossible.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  To do that. On November 5th, 2003, just 84 days after his major league debut, Dernell was found dead in the 2200 block of West Butler Street in Chandler, Arizona. Police found his body around 1:45 a.m. after responding to a call of shots fired in the area. Dernell's hands and feet were bound. He was shot in the head, chest and abdomen at close range, and run over by his own vehicle, which was missing.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  According to one criminologist, there was a 1,000 yard blood trail, showing that the killer or killers had to stop the vehicle and forcibly dislodge Dernell's body before driving off. That is horrific.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  I mean, we already have a murder where the, the victim is bound, shot multiple times, right at close range. But then to think that they ran over his body and dragged it for a thousand yards.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Like 10 football fields.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  It is. It's, that's a very long distance.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  And then had to get out and kind of remove his body so that they could drive on. Investigators found 380 shell casings at the scene as well as fiber and biological debris.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hate to see some of the things that they found after dragging the body for a thousand.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  A thousand yards. Yeah. There's going to be quite a bit of biological debris and it's, it's not going to be pretty, right? This is not going to be a pretty scene in any way. Now, you and I talk about shell casings a lot in the different episodes that we do. We talk about calibers of guns a lot. 380 is a relatively small caliber. You know, it's bigger than a 22, smaller than a, a nine millimeter. It's still lethal.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Obviously, a 22 can be absolutely lethal, but it is a smaller caliber.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Typically used for what? Like just self-protection?

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, today, the ballistics on these bullets, the way they're made, a 380 is, is better than it used to be.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  So some people carry 380s, but I think by and large, most people use nine for self-defense, but some people use 380. They're easier to shoot. They have less recoil.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  So maybe that's why people use them.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, that could be. A witness was able to provide a detailed description of the vehicle that fled the scene. Dernell's SUV was located at 3:45 a.m. in Mesa, Arizona, which is 10 miles from the crime scene. So, you know, let's just talk about it a little bit. Somebody didn't just shoot this guy, right? He was bound. So this wasn't, uh, obviously wasn't a drive-by.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  It wasn't, they were looking for him or just happened to find him and jumped out of a vehicle and shot him. Somebody subdued him and let's keep in mind, this is a major league baseball player.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Those guys are in great shape.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, they should be able to fight back.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  They're, they're strong. They work out. They're, you know, obviously in good shape. So they were able to subdue him, able to bind, you know, him, and then shot him multiple times and then drove away in his vehicle.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  So with him attached to it for a little bit.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yes, which is a, whoo, pretty rough detail. Authorities found 43-year-old Kevin Riddle behind the wheel and held him for questioning. Okay, not good.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  To be found behind the wheel of a murder victim's car, who we know was dragged by this car after being shot.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Certainly not going to be good for you, right? I mean, the police pull you over, what kind of story are you going to come up with?

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, this guy claimed the vehicle had been abandoned in an apartment complex parking lot. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now, I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince, but what I continually go for is their activewear flow net line. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and merino wool.

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• 17:42Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. He described himself as a transient from Indiana, where authorities learned he had an arrest warrant and said he was looking for a place to sleep. When he walked into the parking lot, he was huddled behind an AC unit when he heard tires screeching. He witnessed two occupants of a truck taking things from the SUV. After they drove off in the truck, he took the SUV and drove away from the lot. He was stopped by the police because Mesa recognized the vehicle

• 18:27Speaker 00

  from a description of an alert that was put out by the Chandler police.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  But you know, why would you get into a, one, it's not your vehicle.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Why are you getting into it? But if you are going to get into it, don't you feel like maybe this one I might want to stay away from because something might, might be up with it?

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it, it's a, it's a strange story. Could it be true? Yeah, you'd have to say it could be.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  You know, if this guy is really, uh, you know, a transient, he doesn't have any place to sleep. He sees this vehicle, he's like, okay, that's a place for me to sleep.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  It's a story, but is it a good one? Is it a truthful one? That we don't know. Late on November 6th, police arrested Reginald Riddle of Harvey, Illinois, the half-brother of Kevin Riddle on suspicion of murder, kidnapping and armed robbery. And right off the bat, you think, okay, they find this guy Kevin Riddle. He says he's a transient. He was just taking this car to sleep. But then when, you know, you find out that they arrested his, uh, his half-brother, you have to believe, right, that this story wasn't truthful, didn't pan out.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you remember that, uh, Dernell wanted to be in Indiana, right? Cause that's where his, uh.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Girlfriend was. She was pregnant. Yeah, we talked about that.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  This guy was also from, had ties to Indiana, so maybe.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Possible connection.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Possible connection.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  According to police, the Riddles arrived in the valley two weeks before the killing. They drove from Chicago. Police also announced they were looking for 20-year-old David Griffith, a resident of the Salt River Reservation in Maricopa County. David had been released from prison in March 20, 2003, after serving 21 months for attempted car theft. What authorities still didn't know though was why Dernell was in Chandler so late at night? He was living in an apartment just two miles away from the stadium where he played, uh, in this Fall League.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Remember, he wasn't from Arizona. He was just out there to play in this Fall League. Teammates reported seeing him at a bar in Scottsdale called Sugar Daddy's. About 11:30 p.m. on November 4th.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Interesting name for a sports bar, huh?

• 21:00Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Sugar daddy.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  I do.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Who's your sugar daddy?

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, not something you should ever say. I actually, I don't think anybody should ever say, but specifically something you should never say. Dernell's friend, Mike Gallup, said that after a day game on November 4th, Dernell went out with teammates to have a few drinks. Dernell called Mike and asked him to come, but Mike didn't answer the phone. He also said it was a mystery how Dernell ended up in Chandler, which is several miles from the clubs the players frequented in Scottsdale.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I mean, something obviously made him want to go that direction. Or someone.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Or someone forced him.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Out there. Well, Mike Gallup said, there's nothing out there. He had to be forced into doing it. So he's basically saying, right? There's a lot of bars in Scottsdale. That's where everybody hung out. There's nothing out in Chandler, so there would have been no reason for Dernell to go out there on his own. The baseball world was shocked and saddened by the murder. The Arizona Fall League suspended play for two days. And on November 7th, Dernell's teammates held a moment of silence in his honor before they took the field. And I'm sure that would be tough.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  It would be tough.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  You know, to have any type of teammate be murdered, you know, in a, a sport, your teammates become your family. You're with them all the time.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Right. Cause your family can't really travel with you and, and things like that.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Especially at, at that level where that's your job. You are with these people more than your family in, in some instances. Scorpions bench coach Gary Ingram, who played with Dernell for two years and was one of his closest friends on the team, said he knew something was wrong when Dernell wouldn't return his calls. Dernell was always someone he could count on. Later that day, Ingram was the one who identified Dernell from the graphic police photo.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  How rough, man.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, somebody's got to do it, but it's a terrible thing to have to do.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Especially after the scene that we described. You can only imagine what these photos were like.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I don't even know how you get that out of your head later.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  No, it'd be tough, especially about someone you cared about, someone you, you know, shared a locker room with, had a camaraderie with. Ingram told the Arizona Republic, Dernell is a quiet kid, always kept to himself. I guarantee you could go back in the past 10, 15 years and find out he did nothing troublesome. That's why it's so shocking for a kid like that of his stature to be killed in this manner.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, you're thinking, okay, listen, what kind of trouble could he got himself into? I mean, he's a good kid. So why did someone pick him to do this to?

• 24:07Speaker 00

  That's probably part of, you know, the shock, right? That everybody was going through. Not that they wouldn't be shocked about anyone, but I'm sure there are some people who, you know, maybe are known to get themselves involved in riskier behavior. Maybe it wouldn't be as shocking.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Because, you know, they're out buying drugs or they're out, um, doing other things every night, late at night. You know, I'm not saying they would deserve it, but obviously you're putting yourself at risk if you're doing some of those things.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  If you bring that type of past with you.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  There was fear that Dernell was targeted because he was a pro athlete. The MLB dispatched counselors and security officials to talk with fall league participants about self-preservation.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a good thing to do.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Well, you know, you think about being a professional athlete. We all know how much these guys make.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Big money.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Now, Dernell wasn't making, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  He wasn't a star or anything like that, but you think about, you know, not just regular players are making millions and millions of dollars. They're signing contracts for, you know, five, $10 million a year. And these are guys that are just, maybe don't even play every day.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  You know, there's a lot of money in Major League Baseball.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  But not the superstars.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're signing 10-year contracts for $700 million or some out, you know, outrageous contracts. But you think about being, you know, famous or even semi-famous and walking around. Okay. People know you have money. Does that make it a little more likely that if they recognize you, they, they know who you are? They might wanna, you know, try to get something out of you. Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Definitely. Yeah. You're a target, right? You know? He's got some money in the bank. How much can we get out?

• 26:15Speaker 00

  You gotta be careful. Gotta be even more careful. However, the Arizona Republic noted that Dernell lived in what they called a modest complex. And he drove in a Zuzu rodeo, which according to the paper, were not the trappings of great wealth.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  No, that's true.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. A Zuzu rodeo is, is not a Mercedes or some Lamborghini that, uh, you know, some of these guys might drive.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It was a fine SUV.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know if it was or not. I didn't have one. On November 9th, 2003, police arrested 32-year-old Robert Lee May, a cousin of the Riddle brothers and charged him with hindering the investigation. Reginald Riddle was charged with homicide, armed robbery, kidnapping and burglary. Kevin Riddle was charged with possession of stolen property. David Griffith was held on suspicion of auto theft.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  They got a handful of guys now.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, we knew that the Riddles were kind of in this, right? Police identified them pretty early. Heck, you know, Kevin was found behind the wheel of, uh, Dernell's SUV.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Didn't make him look good at all. And then it seems as though police started putting all the pieces of the puzzle together and, and, you know, got the names of some of the other people who were involved. It was reported that the Riddles and Griffith were facing additional charges, including first degree murder.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Well, that's probably the most important charge here.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's the biggest one for sure. The Chandler police classified the murder as a carjacking and a random killing.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Random. Man. With all the luck, right? I mean.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Well, and we just mentioned it. The guy drove in, drove in a Zuzu trooper rodeo or whatever it was. I mean, nothing against anybody that has an Zuzu. Do they even still make those?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  I don't think they do either, but that doesn't scream carjacking material. Now, I get it. You can be carjacked for any car.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  But like I said, it's not a, a Porsche, a Lamborghini, uh, some expensive Land Rover or, you know.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Something you're gonna make some big money on in the market.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you're not gonna make a ton of money off of that. Investigators believed Dernell was shot as he attempted to escape the car. Although his hands were bound, he struggled against his captors inside the vehicle. Police didn't say at the time, how many of the suspects were involved in the robbery and subsequent struggle. A few days later, it was reported that Robert Lee May posted bail on November 13th after being charged with hindering the investigation. He had since disappeared.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  I, I don't know. Does that shock anybody?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Right? He's in some way wrapped up in this really horrific murder. Now, he, at that point, was only charged with hindering the investigation. It's not murder, but you know, maybe he had a little bit more to do with it than police were able to charge him with. And he thought, I'm not waiting around to find out if they charged me with some other stuff.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I'm out of here.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  He took off. May, though it turned out, was starting a new life under the federal witness protection plan.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  So now, obviously they're not going to report that, right? They're going to report that he disappeared.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  He's taken off. Maybe he's on the run. Two top-level investigators, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told the Arizona Republic that May came to the valley five months earlier after testifying for the prosecution in a case against key members of the gangster disciples in Chicago.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Big gang.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  I've heard of that gang.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  But this is interesting, right? So he comes out to Arizona, already part of the, um, witness protection program. And then what? He gets involved in this while in witness protection? And then he disappears and they're reporting that he's either still in it or now has, uh, got a new identity as part of something else, maybe?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  I'm thinking maybe he called and said, hey. It's not working out.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Can we do this again?

• 31:04Speaker 01

  We gotta, you gotta move me, you know?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  It, it could have been. May was accused of trying to rent a motel room for Reginald Riddle shortly after the killing. So he wasn't considered a suspect in Dernell's death, but federal authorities wanted to question him about possible probation violations. He was eventually rearrested on November 20th on a federal warrant for probation violations. So maybe I had that wrong, right? Maybe when they said that he was in witness protection, it was just the reason for him being in Arizona.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  I see what you're saying.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Maybe not so much that, um, that he was in witness protection after he was, he disappeared on bail, which I made it sound like.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I got you.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  It could be. In late November, it was reported that authorities were trying to piece together whether Dernell's ex-girlfriend and $11,182 in cash seized by federal drug agents in Missouri had any connection with his murder. So now we have another kind of angle.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  That police are working on and it involves, uh, his ex-girlfriend, possible drugs and quite a bit of money in cash.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Maybe these guys were thinking, we'll just go after her, her ex-boyfriend because he's a big time ballplayer. Maybe we can get some money out of him.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Maybe, maybe money they lost or, yeah, possibly.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  Friends and family confirmed Dernell's ex had harassed him across several states for at least 18 months.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  That's a long time to be harassed.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  It is. She allegedly claimed she was pregnant with his child, miscarried, was pregnant again, and miscarried again. At one point, per Dernell's agent, she faked her death to try to force him to call her, which seems like a very strange way to get somebody to call you. Why would you try to call someone you believe is dead?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that doesn't really make much sense.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  But that's how it was reported. On October 21st, 2003, just two weeks before he was killed, she sent Dernell a death threat via text. The message said, you better pray I never see you again. I swear, Dernell, you are worth a murder charge for, and that is all you're worth.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Well, obviously.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  I, I don't know why I'm laughing. Uh, part of it is because I don't understand how people think you can just send texts.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Like that?

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Like that, and it's not going to come back on you.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  And then she sent another one, uh, like a minute after this death threat that read, if you ever want to do something for me, then please choke slow and painful and die.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  It's, it's not funny, but it's like, why are you sending these text messages? And, and obviously she was very upset with him.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  Oh, she hated this guy.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  I mean, you don't send texts like that to somebody that you're just miffed about. I mean, you really hate this person.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And it's not like, not like he's going to be like, hey, baby, I didn't mean to get you so upset. We're good, right? Let's get back together.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Well, especially if she's been harassing him for the last 18 months. He's obviously trying to get away from this woman and that's why she's harassing him. And she's sending him these awful texts.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Clearly she's not getting the hint.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  No. It was said that he was so upset by the messages that he filed a complaint with the Scottsdale Police Department. A police report identified his ex-girlfriend as Jennifer Gaddis of Indianapolis.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  It's on the record now.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think that's a smart move.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so too, right? I mean, you, you can't take that risk when things like that are being said. You kind of have to assume maybe she might try to follow up on it.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, but a lot of people might blow that off. They might be worried about it, but they might not take the step of actually reaching out to the police because they don't really think the person is going to follow through. So that's why I say, I mean, to me, it's a good thing because of what happened, right? To have that on the record.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Also wonder why people don't just get a new phone number, you know?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Well, that's a good point too.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  People are so married to their phone numbers today.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you realize how many people have your phone number? And how much of a pain in the ass it would be to.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Contact all these people and say, here I have a new phone number.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  But if I had someone crazy calling me all the time?

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  I'd be like, ah.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  I never experienced that, so I, you know, I would never.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Have thought about it. Dernell told officers he dated Gaddis for about a year and they broke up a year earlier. After that, he started dating another woman in Syracuse, New York, whom he had a, a child with. According to an article by the East Valley Tribune, during a phone interview, Gaddis admitted to Scottsdale investigators that she sent a message saying she'd be happy if Dernell died, but denied writing any of the three text messages that he showed police.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  So somebody somehow has your phone and they're writing these awful threatening text messages, but it wasn't you, somebody else.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Somebody else got to hold your phone. Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  But you did send one that say, said you'd be okay, or you'd be happy if he died.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a weird thing, you know? It's like, hey, how you doing? By the way, if you die, I'm going to be okay. Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Uh, again, it, yeah, you're right. Just really strange. Gaddis told investigators that she started legal proceedings to get child support from Dernell. She claimed he was the father of her eight-month-old child and that she was 11 weeks pregnant with their second. In a previous interview, Gaddis said they'd been dating on and off for several years. In his October 21st interview, Dernell said he hadn't spoken with Gaddis since they broke up. In a follow-up interview later in the day, he admitted he had recently seen Anne called Gaddis and declined to press charges against her.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Okay, well.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  So, you know, first of all, you'd think, well, he can't be the father of this second child because he hasn't seen her in over a year, but then he admitted that he had.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  So that brings that possibility back into focus.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  So then you think, okay, was this woman justified in some way of sending some of the text messages? Not saying that she wanted him dead, but like.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know how you could say she would be justified.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Maybe she was just fed up with the games that she felt like maybe he was playing with her.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Well, I get that, but that still doesn't mean you should say you're worth a murder charge.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no, you're never worth, no, no.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Something like that.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  But just the frustration. Sometimes when people are frustrated, they say things they really don't mean.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I mean, she could have, uh, felt as though she was being strung along or something like that. But like you said, right? Still no reason to send those type of messages. The day after Dernell alerted police, October 22nd, Kevin and Reginald Riddle were stopped by authorities near St. Louis, Missouri on suspicion of unrelated drug activities. And I mentioned it earlier. Investigators believe the Riddles had been driving to Arizona from Illinois weeks before the killing. They were released after being forced to surrender this $11,182 in cash they were carrying.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  I think a lot of money in cash to be carrying around.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  So too.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  While you're driving.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Maybe buy money or something like that.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you know, most people are going to think you're doing something illegal. According to the Arizona Republic, the bizarre swirl of menacing messages, cash-carrying drug suspects and a disappearing federal witness was an unlikely postscript to Stenson's mostly quiet life and personality. By all accounts, he was a clean-living, dedicated athlete. Dernell's former agent Stanley King told the Republic, I've never heard him raise his voice, not once. When he was with Boston, one of the faults the team shared with me was that they wanted him to show more emotion. He was very quiet, almost to a fault.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I mean, it just sounds like one of those quiet, I'm just here to do my thing, play baseball, be the best I can.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  I don't want a lot of off-field drama.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  But being quiet sometimes in team sports can be a bad thing, right? Uh, especially in basketball, uh, certain positions, you need to talk a lot. You need to communicate while you're on the, the field. And in most sports, you need to communicate. So if you're one of those people who doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to speak up, okay, I could see how the ball club would say, you know, we need you to show a little more emotion, be more communicative, stuff like that.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Even off the field, probably, you know, just in the dugout and, you know, maybe practices, you know, communicate, you know? We're, we're a big team family here.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  King also said Dernell's ex-girlfriend haunted him repeatedly during the 2002 season when he had a batting average of 250 and nearly ended his career.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  That can be a lot, you know, when you have an ex haunting you and stalking you and doing things like that.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Well, neither one of us have played professional sports, but.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  I can imagine that some really tough off-the-field issues, it has to bleed over into your job.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  It does for everybody. But if you're a professional athlete, okay, people are going to notice it even more because you're on a, you're on this huge public state.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah. You got something going on in your head. It's not going to play well out in that field.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  It sure doesn't help you.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Right? According to King, she called and left an emergency message at the stadium, stadium, saying she killed herself or died.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  I guess she

• 42:07Speaker 00

  I know, we're laughing about stuff that's not funny, but it is funny in this context.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Because I, what I said earlier, she's saying it because she wants him to call her back because he's not picking up the phone.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  That seems like the weirdest way to try to get someone to call you back.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  And when they don't, I mean, shouldn't that tell you everything you need to know?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Well, then she turned around and called and said she was pregnant. So you go from what? I've died.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  To I'm gonna hurt myself. And then all the way to, oh, well, now none of that happened, but I'm pregnant. And this was just one week after she had called to say she had miscarriage. And these are conversations she had with this guy, right? This is King, he's saying, so I'm not relating anything from a third person.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  It's bizarre.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Her actions are bizarre.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  It's harassment, for sure.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Dernell's mother, Cora, said over the phone that she didn't know what kind of relationship her son had with Gaddis. She also said she didn't know whether her son and Gaddis had a child or not. An obituary published in the Indianapolis Star on May 29th, 2002, identified Jaden Dernell Gaddis Stenson as the infant son of Dernell Stenson and Jennifer Gaddis. The obituary said that the child died on May 18th of that year. Officials in Indiana failed to return the Republic's phone calls, asking whether a birth or death certificate had ever been filed under that name. Stanley King said, I'm not a mystery writer, but this is just bizarre.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  One thing I can tell you, this is not a robbery gone bad. There has to be more to it. I hate to say it, but I don't think there's a coincidence that he filed a complaint saying his life was being threatened and then he turns up dead. And that's why I kind of said, I, I thought it was a, a smart move, right? To contact police. And some people might not, they might not think it's that big a deal. The person's never going to carry through with it. They don't want to bother the police. But because he later ends up dead, it's that much more important.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, if it was me back then, I don't know what I would have done.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  I don't think anybody does, right? Until you're really put into that situation and nobody wants to be in that situation. I don't think you know exactly how you're going to handle it.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  But anymore, I think you can't take the risk. You've got to go ahead and report it.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Oh, you mean now, like you're saying now versus your younger self?

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think you're right with that, right about that. I, I think I would do things differently now than what I would do when I was 20, 21, 22 years old. In my early twenties. On November 21st, Arizona detective surged, served a search warrant and spent most of the day questioning Jennifer Gaddis. They considered an investigative lead in the case. Authorities in Arizona and Indiana avoided calling her a suspect and emphasized she was not under arrest.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Just looking into her.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  Well, and, and how can you not want to talk to this woman? Just look at the text messages that we talked about. Those are threats of the highest degree.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  They are.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  I'm going to kill you, you're worth a murder charge. And the next thing you know, this guy ends up dead. You're going to get a visit from detective.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you're getting a knock on your door.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no way around that. Jennifer Gaddis, who previously worked in the HR department at the Indianapolis Star, refused to speak to the media and issued a statement through the paper that she had nothing to say. In an article published that day, the Arizona Republic also provided more information about the baby named Jaden Dernell Gaddis Stenson. Officials at the Marion County Health Department confirmed that they received forms allowing the transit of a body identified as Jaden Stenson in May 2002. Those forms said the baby died in Ohio. Ohio officials contacted by the Republic confirmed

• 46:27Speaker 00

  a fetal death certificate was issued for Jaden Stenson on May 18th, 2002. The cause of death was listed as complications from labor and noted the fetus was premature. So it does sound like, at the very least, she did have a miscarriage.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  At the request of Chandler Police, detectives in Indiana executed a search warrant on November 26th at the Indianapolis Star office. And they confiscated Jennifer's work computer. The Republic reported that she was no longer employed by the Star at that time. So kind of interesting that she worked at a paper.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  It is.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  In February 2004, a Chandler Police spokesman said that the investigators found no conspiracy between the men accused of killing Dernell and Jennifer Gaddis.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  So no connection.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Which is kind of shocking, to be honest with you. Spokesman Mark Franzen said, it seems like this was a random act. Because the more that we talked about her, the more it seemed as though, all right, she might have had a, a role in this.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  So for them to come out and say that they don't believe she did. And this was more of a, a random act, not connected to her. Is, is very interesting.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I mean, she said some things that made you think maybe she was involved, but.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Oh, they were brutal, they were hateful.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Franzen noted that Gaddis continued to cooperate with investigators. He also said, the motive was to take his vehicle. And you've kind of touched on that early on, right? Carjacking, right? Isuzu rodeo, not a bad vehicle, but not the most stolen vehicle, not the most desirable vehicle. But any vehicle can be carjacked.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah. Even Ford Fiesta's.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  I knew you were going to come back to Fiesta's somehow, some way. On October 22nd, 2004, Kevin Riddle waived his right to a jury trial and pleaded guilty to vehicle theft and impeding prosecution. On December 3rd of that year, Kevin was sentenced to eight years and nine months in prison. Prosecutor Catherine Hughes said that Riddle wasn't offered a plea agreement. So she could still charge him with Dernell's death if there was sufficient evidence. And that's pretty, you know, interesting, right? They know they got him on this.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  But they don't know at this point in time, whether he was actually involved, or, or at least they can't prove it maybe in Dernell's death. But it's still open, right? The possibility is open that if they got that evidence later on, they could charge him. On the day of sentencing, the Arizona Republic published some details about authorities' theory of the crime. They believed Dernell was kidnapped from a bar by Reginald Riddle and David Griffith, shot and thrown from his car. The pair called Kevin for help and he was apprehended before he could dispose of the vehicle.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  So that's why he was in the vehicle, he was planning on taking somewhere to get rid of it.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  And makes a lot more sense than a, a, a person without a home or a place to sleep, just happening to see this vehicle being abandoned.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Right, and deciding, well, um, you know, I'll get in it, the keys are in it and this will be a, a place to sleep. And that just didn't make a lot of sense at the time. On January 26th, 2006, Reginald Riddle dodged a possible death sentence by accepting a plea agreement for first degree murder. And I think a lot of people do that, right? That comes up in a lot of the, the cases that we look into. It's a big carrot that the prosecution has.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  If they have a ton of evidence against you, that possibility of the death sentence can get some people to plead guilty.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  By removing it.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  It's either, we can keep going down this path, guys, but once you're found guilty, you're going to get this. Or just go ahead and plead it and we're just make sure that you just get life.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, and a lot of people do. In December 2007, David Griffith was sentenced to life without parole after pleading guilty to murder, armed robbery and kidnapping. Robert Lee May was cleared of all charges. On January 25th, 2008, Reginald was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. According to information from the Arizona DOC inmate data search page, both Reginald and David remain incarcerated in Arizona, which they should be.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, as we wrap this one up, there's a lot of mystery in this case. I think most of it kind of centered around Dernell's ex-girlfriend, right? It was said that she was stalking him for like a year and a half. She obviously left some very disturbing text messages.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  They were.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  But in the end, authorities just didn't think she was involved in this thing in any way, that all of that was just kind of random when it came to his murder.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, just unfortunate things that she said and the timing.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  And the timing, right, was bad, but it turns out that these guys were just looking for, you know, someone to carjack and I don't even think it had anything to do with him being a, a pro baseball player. They were just maybe looking for some easy money.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  They wanted that Isuzu.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they were willing to kill this guy.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Not only kill him, but then also drag him.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  In a horrific way. And I know we keep talking about the Isuzu rodeo.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  It's just how senseless, you know, not that it would be better if they got a Lamborghini out of this thing.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  No, but I mean, you're, you're killing somebody over a vehicle.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. You're taking away someone's life. You're devastating the lives of all of his family, friends, coworkers. Over what? A vehicle that's worth, I don't know what that would have been worth in 2008, 20 grand, let's say, if it was new. I don't know. It's just, it shocks me, it really does. In 2004, the MLB established the Dernell Stenson Sportsmanship Award, honoring the player who demonstrates perseverance and humility. Cause that's what a lot of people said about him.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Right? That he was a, he was a really good guy. Dernell was only 25 years old when he was murdered. After spending years in the minor leagues, his dream of playing in MLB finally came to fruition. After a successful first season, he was looking forward to his future. But his life was tragically cut short by what turned out to be, you know, kind of this random deadly act of horrific violence.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. 25 years old, man.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  That's so young.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  So young, yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  And actually, you know, you can play longer in baseball than some other sport.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 54:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's guys that play into their 40s.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Ty Cobb.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Well, there's guys like even today, still playing their late 30s. Now, there are some quarterbacks like Tom Brady still played at a very high level and he was in his early 40s.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  He really did.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  He was still amazing, but that's the exception, right? It's not the norm, but you know, this guy had just made it. And we, we talked a lot about, you know, he was only 25, but how many years, he'd probably worked 20 years, right? Towards his goal. He'd probably been playing since he was five or six or something like that. And he just attained this thing he'd been wanting for so long. And then presumably through no fault of his own, right? He just happened to be targeted by these guys and killed. So just, just a shocking story.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Really is. Just never know.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  You never know. But that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 55:29Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.