Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Alvin and Judith Neelley About this episode Alvin and Judith Neelley were a young married couple who went on a violent crime spree in the fall of 1982 that resulted in the deaths of two victims, one of whom was just thirteen years old. A teenager herself, Judith Neelley would become the youngest woman sentenced to death in the United States.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Alvin and Judith Neelley. Their crimes were horrific, and after they were caught, they gave very different accounts of what happened and each other's involvement. Did Alvin have complete control over Judith to the point where she would kill for him? Or, was she a violent predator as the prosecution claimed?
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Transcript 10,236 words · 3 speakers
0:39 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 465 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:49 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
0:51 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
0:52 Speaker 01 Awesome.
0:52 Speaker 00 You know, we are getting close to the, the holiday season.
0:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:57 Speaker 00 And it's probably a good time to let everybody know, we're taking next weekend off, taking the whole week of Christmas off and then we'll be back on the 3rd of January.
1:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09 Speaker 00 So.
1:10 Speaker 01 Looking forward to it.
1:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's, it's always nice to have that week off around Christmas to spend with family. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Carol Hand.
1:19 Speaker 01 Hey Carol.
1:20 Speaker 00 Gammie.
1:21 Speaker 01 What's going on, Gammie?
1:22 Speaker 00 Poppy Gumpy.
1:23 Speaker 01 Oh, Poppy Gumpy.
1:25 Speaker 00 Audrey G.
1:26 Speaker 01 Hey Audrey.
1:27 Speaker 00 Jenna Gibson.
1:28 Speaker 01 What's going on Jenna Gibbs?
1:30 Speaker 00 Amy Bridges.
1:31 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Bridges.
1:33 Speaker 00 Shake and Bake 420.
1:35 Speaker 01 Ooh, got some 420 going on.
1:37 Speaker 00 JC.
1:38 Speaker 01 What's happening JC?
1:39 Speaker 00 Louise Duffy.
1:40 Speaker 01 Hey Duffy.
1:41 Speaker 00 Denise Jenkins.
1:43 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Denise.
1:44 Speaker 00 Micah KT.
1:45 Speaker 01 What's up KT?
1:46 Speaker 00 And last but not least, John McWaters.
1:49 Speaker 01 Thanks McWaters.
1:50 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Addison Batances.
1:57 Speaker 01 Thanks, Batances.
1:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, so you know, appreciate the new support, the continued support. We talked on Patreon, Gibbs, about my Powerball dreams.
2:07 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:08 Speaker 00 I've had some strange ones lately now that it's over a billion dollars. But we'll see.
2:13 Speaker 01 Might happen.
2:14 Speaker 00 You never know.
2:15 Speaker 01 I hope it happens.
2:16 Speaker 00 You buy a ticket, you got a chance. That's my, that's my theory.
2:20 Speaker 01 Gotta, gotta have the ticket to play.
2:21 Speaker 00 You do. So we have an episode out, a new one on true crime all the time unsolved. We're talking about the Decker girls. And you know, it starts off with Travis Decker, described as an active father with three daughters. Everything seemed pretty normal until, you know, he picked the girls up for a scheduled visitation and then didn't return. And then everything kind of, you know, starts from there and we get into all the details. But it's a good episode. Make sure you check that one out.
2:54 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
2:54 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?
2:58 Speaker 01 I am.
2:59 Speaker 00 We're talking about Alvin and Judith Neelley. Alvin and Judith Neelley were a young married couple who went on a violent crime spree in the fall of 1982. That resulted in the deaths of two victims, one of whom was just 13 years old. And I think one of the very interesting aspects of this case is Judith Neelley was a teenager herself. And so, you know, the dynamics of that, how it plays into everything, fascinating. And although investigators didn't realize it at the time, the first link in their case began in September, 1982.
3:42 Speaker 00 One night, a man named Ken Dooley answered a call from a woman claiming to know his wife and asking for directions to his home in Rome, Georgia. Ken gave her directions, but his wife claimed not to know the person on the other line. And two, didn't think much of it until the night of September 10th. A young woman called asking for Ken while he was away. She called again later that night. When Ken picked up the phone, he heard an angry male voice telling him he was going to pay. And then later that night, four shots were fired into his home. Two of them went inside his study. No one inside was hurt.
4:25 Speaker 00 Ken saw a car speeding off and called police. He didn't know if the shots were random or targeted, nor who would want to harm him. But I mean, you'd have to admit, it's a scary situation.
4:39 Speaker 01 Sure it is. It'd be so bizarre too, just to be sitting there doing whatever you're doing in your home, right? And next thing you know, you got bullets being shot at your house.
4:49 Speaker 00 Yeah. And add on top of that, these couple of really strange phone calls, one which was no doubt threatening. On the night of September 11th, a homemade Molotov cocktail was thrown at a home belonging to Linda Adair. A boy in the neighborhood saw a brown car with cream stripes speeding off with a man and a woman inside. He described the woman as having long reddish hair. Linda's husband reported that they had received several phone calls from a young woman prior to this. When Linda came to the phone to speak to the woman, the line went dead. Police suspected that Linda's husband, an arson investigator, was the target.
5:34 Speaker 00 And I can understand that, right? Police have to at least come up with something to work with.
5:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:40 Speaker 00 Theories, thoughts. Okay. A Molotov cocktail, somebody's angry about maybe an arson investigation conclusion made by this guy?
5:53 Speaker 01 Maybe.
5:53 Speaker 00 Possibility. The phone rang while the police were at the house. Linda answered and a woman told her she and Kenneth Dooley were both going to die that night. I don't know what happens Gibbs, when you get that type of phone call.
6:09 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think it would scare you, give you great concern.
6:15 Speaker 00 Well, it is also 1982, right? So the technology is a little limited in, I think, what can be discerned about the phone call.
6:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:27 Speaker 00 If it's not being traced right at the, you know, that exact moment. The female caller would not give her name, but she claimed she was sexually abused at the youth development center, a facility for troubled adolescent girls in Rome, Georgia. Both Ken and Linda worked there. The call was automatically recorded. When Linda listened to it again, she realized the voice was similar to the woman who called her earlier that night, but she couldn't identify her. Officers interviewed staff at the YDC, trying to determine if the abuse allegation was true. But eventually, the investigation was put on the back burner due to a lack of leads
7:12 Speaker 00 and the fact that no one was harmed. It's a scary situation, both of these.
7:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, if you're performing a responsibility as part of your job, and maybe someone takes it the wrong way or assumes you're doing this, or maybe they were actually doing something wrong.
7:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, or just didn't like the outcome of a decision.
7:37 Speaker 01 Yeah. Now they are hunting you down.
7:41 Speaker 00 You're gonna sleep with one eye open, for sure. On September 25th, 1982, two girls were approached on the western side of Rome by a young woman who wanted to know their names and where they lived. She tried to pressure the girls to get in her car and ride around with her. Both of the girls managed to avoid her. And I think the other thing that has to jump out at you is, you know, you have a... A number of scenarios here that seem odd, to say the very least, that involve a woman.
8:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, some red flags going off.
8:17 Speaker 00 That same day, 13-year-old Lisa Ann Milliken went to the Riverbend Mall in Rome with five other girls from the Ethel Harp's home for Neglected Girls in Cedar Town. Lisa and the other girls were instructed to meet at a specific spot within one hour, but Lisa never showed up. No one recalled seeing a struggle. Several days passed with no sign of Lisa. However, police received three anonymous calls from a woman directing them to Alabama's Little River Canyon, about 35 miles away from Rome. The Rome police took the first call. They looked into the tip, but didn't find anything. Officers in Alabama
9:01 Speaker 00 took the next two calls. A woman also called a Rome radio station, claiming the police were covering up a murder committed by a female juvenile officer. The caller named Lisa Ann Milliken as the victim.
9:17 Speaker 01 We've got some things going on here.
9:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, a lot of stuff. But again, at the heart of it all, right, is a woman, a female. There's no doubt about it. Everybody says that the caller was a female. After this call, police made a more concerted effort to search the area where the caller directed them. On September 30, 1982, police found the body of Lisa Ann Milliken on the floor of Little River Canyon in Fort Payne, Alabama. As investigators got closer, they could see a bullet hole in Lisa's back, which meant, you know, obviously, she didn't fall. She'd been thrown from about 80 feet above.
10:01 Speaker 01 That's a pretty healthy fall.
10:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think in a lot of cases, a fall from 80 feet is going to kill you. Now, she also had a bullet hole in her back, so that might have. Been the cause of her death. Her body had landed partially draped over a tree trunk. A pair of jeans hung from a branch. The autopsy showed that Lisa had been raped and injected with a substance that boiled the fat under her skin.
10:34 Speaker 01 Oh, well, that's something I haven't heard about before.
10:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know that I have either. Right, there are a lot of substances that someone could be injected with, many of which no one should ever be injected with. And, and I'm sure they can cause all kinds of different reactions up into, including death.
10:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, sounds painful.
11:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think anytime you're talking about something boiling under your skin, it had to have been painful. Three plastic syringes were found near the body and the lab determined they contain components of household cleaners, such as liquid Drano. Additionally, the jeans at the crime scene had blood on them, but it was determined that the jeans were not Lisa's. Investigators reviewed the anonymous phone calls from the tipster and some agreed that the same woman made all four calls. The thing she said indicated she was familiar with the juvenile justice system.
11:40 Speaker 00 And it was said that Lisa had no known enemies, so her connection with the caller was a mystery. Police interviewed other girls at the Ethel Harps home, Lisa's former neighbors, her father, who allegedly molested her, and her mother, whose boyfriend was recently out of prison. No one was a super strong suspect, but police would soon get a break in the case. All right, maybe not super strong suspects, but you've got some potential suspects here.
12:11 Speaker 01 I think so.
12:12 Speaker 00 You know, if you have a A father who's allegedly molesting his daughter, who then, you know, ends up dead. The mother's boyfriend just got out of prison. I mean, obviously those are people you're gonna have to look at. At the very least, you're gonna have to rule them out. On October 3rd, 1982, cemetery worker John Hancock and his fiancee, 23-year-old Janice K. Chapman, accepted an invitation to go riding around with a young woman they didn't know. She was driving a brown Dodge. She told them that she was lonely and wanted company. John later explained that as a Christian, he felt obligated to do what he could for her.
12:57 Speaker 00 While they were driving, the woman showed them her CB radio and spoke to someone on the other end called The Knight Rider.
13:06 Speaker 01 The Knight Rider?
13:07 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I think you and I have talked about CB radios before.
13:11 Speaker 01 Sure.
13:12 Speaker 00 You know, prior to cell phones in the late 80s, when I first started to drive. My friends and I all got CB radios in our cars because it was like the easiest way to keep in touch while you were in the car.
13:25 Speaker 01 Breaker 19, good buddy.
13:27 Speaker 00 Yep. Now, I don't know what my handle was. I can't remember.
13:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, you do.
13:34 Speaker 00 I know yours was, uh, King of the Singlets, but, uh, now John and Janice also had CB handles and were familiar with how the radios worked. When John saw the weakness of the frequency the woman was using to chat with Knight Rider, he realized that Knight Rider was closer than where he said he was. He was communicating with the woman, whose handle was Lady Sundown, in a way that John couldn't decode. But he tried to relax and just kind of go along with the ride. To John's surprise, the woman took them outside town. After she stopped the car, a man pulled up alongside them in a red Granada.
14:19 Speaker 00 He had two small children with him. And John got into the car with the man while the children went with the woman. John introduced himself and Janice.
14:31 Speaker 00 The man called Knight Rider said he wanted to find some alcohol. The two cars drove to a closed bar in Alabama, then to another spot miles away. I think you just have to take a minute and kind of put yourself in the position of these two people. All right, you don't know this woman, first of all. John even said it, he felt an obligation to kind of help her out because she said she was lonely. She wanted some company.
15:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:00 Speaker 00 You hear this kind of strange CB talk that you can't decode. The next thing you know, there's somebody pulling up and they're swapping drivers.
15:12 Speaker 01 They're like, hey, these little kids are going with us and you guys are coming with me. And that would just be bizarre.
15:19 Speaker 00 It would be, I have to imagine there's, there's a point there where you're thinking, this doesn't seem right, but what do you do?
15:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:30 Speaker 00 And there is a point sadly, in a lot of these cases where, you know, a decision could be made, but isn't. Now, we don't know what would have happened if they would have decided to get out of the car and make a run for it. We don't know. The man called Knight Rider acted like he was looking for a bootlegger to supply them with alcohol. John no longer knew where they were. He had lost his sense of direction, but investigators later placed them in Somerville, Georgia. John got out of the car to relieve himself and was surprised when Lady Sundown pointed a gun at him and ordered him into the woods.
16:12 Speaker 00 She walked him down a narrow path and he heard the man yell at her to get it over with. She told John not to worry about his girlfriend. The man yelled at her again and the woman shot John in the back. He felt the impact in his right shoulder and fell to the ground. The woman didn't pause to make sure she had killed him. John lay there for some time after he heard the cars drive off and he was certain he was alone. He ran to the road to get help. He managed to flag down a truck driver who took him to the hospital where a nurse called the police. All right, just an absolutely scary situation.
16:55 Speaker 01 For sure.
16:56 Speaker 00 I mean, I think anytime to be shot. That's not going to be a great night. Now, there are different places in your body where you can be shot that are better than others. Right in the shoulder. Can you survive that? Yeah, you can.
17:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:14 Speaker 00 As opposed to being shot in, you know, much more vital places of the body. But it's gonna hurt like you know what? So I can only imagine how tough it was for him. And he's kind of playing dead, it sounds like. And waiting to hear them leave so that they don't come back and, and finish him off.
17:38 Speaker 01 Think how nerve wracking that would be, right? You're, you're trying to like, hope that they don't come back. Am I laying still enough? Should I smear some of that blood coming out of me on, on my face or something to make it look like it's worse than it actually is?
17:54 Speaker 00 But at the same time, I think he has to be worried about Janice, right?
17:57 Speaker 01 Sure.
17:58 Speaker 00 Cause they've taken Janice. Now, police initially suspected John was involved in a drug deal gone bad. Because John was claiming a woman shot him and he seemed to put up no resistance. He also didn't seem very concerned about Janice or the fact that he had been shot. And you know, maybe some of that is due to being in shock. I have no idea. But it was an unusual story. And police were skeptical because John willingly got into the car with a stranger. However, there had been multiple reports over the past few days of people being accosted by a woman, driving around in a brown Dodge with white stripes,
18:41 Speaker 00 which matched John's description. John was treated at the hospital and taken to the police station for a polygraph. The bullet was also removed from his shoulder for future ballistics comparison. While at the station, John overheard Detective Sergeant Kenneth Kynz, who was assigned to the Lisa Ann Milliken investigation, playing a tape of the mysterious female caller. John identified the voice as the woman who shot him. And then after that, he helped create a composite sketch of the two suspects. He also agreed to submit to hypnosis to refresh his memory.
19:24 Speaker 00 But all he could recall during the session was a bumper sticker he had not previously described. John drove around with Detective Sergeant Kynes to see if anything jogged his memory. He pointed out a brown Dodge and a red Grenada.
19:41 Speaker 01 I think the police probably shifted pretty quickly. Once they realized that his story was sounding more and more credible.
19:52 Speaker 00 Kynes was also looking into the Linda Adair and Kenneth Dooley cases. He wanted to determine if something had happened to the female caller during her time at the youth development center that would cause her to hold a grudge. Dooley and Adair denied that any sexual abuse had occurred and said they didn't know each other outside of a professional relationship at the YDC. Determined to get to the bottom of things, Detective Kynes went over all the files of the girls who were sent to the YDC and narrowed down a list of five girls with prior records. One of them was Judith Ann Neelley, who matched the description of the woman in the brown
20:37 Speaker 00 car given by some witnesses. Judith was held at the Reform School for seven months in 1981 for robbing a grocery store and stealing over $3,000 from a gas station where she worked. It was an armed robbery charge, meaning she had some experience with a gun. YDC's security chief Booker Anderson told investigators Judith didn't cause any problems while she was there.
21:05 Speaker 01 So, person of interest?
21:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think so, right? She matches the descriptions. She was at this youth development center. Meanwhile, Linda Dare read the description of the Hancock Chapman incident in the paper and believed she knew who was responsible. She spoke to the police on October 12th. When the police described the two children who were with the man called Knight Rider, Linda remembered a girl from the YDC and even had photos. She identified her as Judith Neelley, who was married to Alvin Neelley. Judith was only 18 and she had lived a very troubled life. Judith was born in
21:51 Speaker 00 Murfreesboro, Tennessee in 1964. Her father died in an accident. When she was nine, she didn't have a stable or safe homeland. And Judith's mother was arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a teenage boy. Now, I don't have any details of what that exactly was, but doesn't sound good.
22:15 Speaker 01 Not at all. I can see the rough childhood there, though.
22:18 Speaker 00 Judith met her future husband, Alvin Neelley, when she was only 15. Alvin was 12 years her senior. Okay, I get it. It's, you know, Tennessee in the mid 1970s, but this is some Jerry Lee Lewis type stuff here.
22:38 Speaker 01 Oh, great balls of fire.
22:39 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, he's 27. She's only 15 years old.
22:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a pretty, pretty good span there.
22:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, and a little creepy if you ask me.
22:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:51 Speaker 00 I don't know if it was illegal in Tennessee at the time, because, you know, as we've talked about, the age of consent has been different throughout the years. Alvin and Judith fell in love, but he was already married and had three children with his wife. He sought a divorce, which his wife agreed to. And then Alvin and Judith eloped in Georgia in 1980. And it was said that Judith fell into a life of crime easily. She and Alvin were constantly on the move, robbing convenience stores and gas stations across state lines.
23:27 Speaker 01 What an exciting thing to do with your partner. Let's go rob some stores and gas stations and I love you, baby.
23:35 Speaker 00 Well, how much easier do you think it was to rob a gas station in 1980 than it is today?
23:43 Speaker 01 Oh, definitely easier for sure.
23:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, today, you know, we have so much video surveillance. A lot of the gas stations, you know, a clerk is behind some kind of thick Plexiglas that makes it hard to get to them.
24:00 Speaker 01 Like you're also going to be limited on your take because they do those, those constant drops.
24:05 Speaker 00 They do, they do. And at least, you know, when I was in the gas station business, the most you could take out was a pretty low amount from the safe. And then it was a, a matter of time before you could make another withdrawal. It was a time delay.
24:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:24 Speaker 00 As we mentioned in 1980, they robbed a woman at gunpoint at the Riverbend Mall parking lot. The same place Lisa Milliken was abducted from. They were then arrested for trying to cash stolen checks. Alvin had outstanding warrants in several states. He was sentenced to five years in prison and Judith was sent to the youth development center. She was pregnant at the time and gave birth to twins before she was transferred to another facility in Macon. Judith often wrote to Alvin about how much she hated the staff at the YDC. She claimed they sexually abused her.
25:05 Speaker 00 All of her allegations have been denied and police found no evidence to support them. However, Alvin believed her and wanted to get revenge. So this starts to make a lot of sense, right? When you go back to this woman who's placing calls and talking about abuse at the youth development center. I mean, she is really fitting in perfectly.
25:34 Speaker 01 She wants revenge.
25:35 Speaker 00 And Alvin does as well. Judith was released towards the end of 1981 and moved in with Alvin's parents in Cleveland, Tennessee to await his release. She was soon arrested for robbing a convenience store. Alvin's parents helped care for the twins while she was incarcerated. Alvin was granted early release. He and Judith picked up their kids and returned to their life of crime with the goal of getting revenge against the staff at the YDC. Okay, so I think we've established that part, right? This is the a big goal. She wants revenge. Alvin wants revenge
26:14 Speaker 00 for her. But the one thing that's really jumping out at me is we haven't really talked about a lot of gainful employment. It seems to me like two people trying to live their lives, funding it by just robbing convenience stores.
26:34 Speaker 01 Not the best way to go about it.
26:36 Speaker 00 No, I mean, can you get some money? Well, yeah, obviously you can, but it's illegal. You're putting your freedom in jeopardy. But I get it, Gibbs. There are some people, they don't want to have, you know, that 40 hour a week job. They don't want to go through that grunt. And they see what to them is an easier way to get money and they take it.
27:05 Speaker 01 But you're rolling the dice every time.
27:07 Speaker 00 Every time. And they were caught multiple times, it sounds like.
27:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:12 Speaker 00 Now, I don't think they did, you know, very long stretches. They were out somewhat quickly. But after Alvin got out, they needed money. So he taught Judith how to steal checks from post offices and use the signatures to forge money orders. To keep track of each other, they installed CB radios in their cars and used the handles Knight Rider and Lady Sundown.
27:38 Speaker 01 Good buddy.
27:39 Speaker 00 10-4.
27:40 Speaker 01 10-4.
27:41 Speaker 00 Sphincter Niner ringworm.
27:44 Speaker 00 After speaking to Linda Dare, Detective Sergeant Kenneth Kynes found the Neelys' criminal records and requested photos. He showed John Hancock a photo lineup and he hesitantly identified Judith and Alvin as Lady Sundown and Knight Rider, but he would need to see them in person to be certain. Detective Kynes learned that the two suspects had already been arrested in Tennessee for unrelated crimes. So they were committing a lot of crimes. They were also getting caught quite a bit.
28:19 Speaker 01 Just not staying in jail or prison very long.
28:22 Speaker 00 Well, which we know happened back then. Judith was arrested on October 10th, 1982 at the University Inn in Murfreesboro for using forged checks and money orders at a bank. Alvin was arrested on October 12th and the couple quickly turned on each other. Alvin's attorney urged him to tell the police what he knew. He claimed Judith had instigated the crimes and he had just gone along with her. She liked to have power over others. He was afraid she would kill him. Alvin claimed he and Judith were recruiters and enforcers for a prostitution ring.
29:03 Speaker 00 He implied that there could be up to eight more murder victims.
29:08 Speaker 01 He's giving it up pretty quick.
29:10 Speaker 00 But is he being truthful, right? That's the question. He's definitely pointing the finger at her as kind of the ringleader mastermind.
29:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:20 Speaker 00 You know, he even said it. He, he just went along with her, but he did indicate he was either present or had firsthand knowledge of the murders, but stopped short of claiming responsibility for the killings. And you and I talk about it quite a bit, right? You have these two people who are thick as thieves, right? They're in it together right up until the time that they get caught for something very serious.
29:49 Speaker 00 And then it's like, uh oh, how do I save my own ass?
29:53 Speaker 01 That's right. Oh, no, I'm not going to go to prison. It was her the whole time.
29:57 Speaker 00 The murders allegedly occurred in Macon, Columbus, Albany, and Gordon County, Georgia, as well as Opelika, Dothan, and DeKalb County, Alabama, over an 18-month period. He also claimed to have information about the shooting of a pregnant woman.
30:17 Speaker 01 He really is not holding back.
30:20 Speaker 00 No, he's laying a lot of stuff out there, but again, he's not really taking responsibility for the killings. He's laying all of that on Judith. Alvin shared information over two days of interrogation. According to Chattanooga County Sheriff Gary McConnell, is quoted by the Macon News. Neelley didn't say he pulled the trigger. He hasn't confessed to the murders, but he has information that leads us to believe that he and his wife may be involved. Neelley said they were trying to recruit females off the street to act as prostitutes in their prostitution ring. It was also reported that Alvin was extremely knowledgeable about the locations of the bodies
31:05 Speaker 00 and how they were killed. McConnell went on to say he knew where they were found, how the women were killed, and he knew what these other people looked like. He's familiar with these cases down to the last detail. So obviously, he's gaining some credibility in that respect. Judith initially accepted all the blame for the murders and described how she killed Lisa Milliken and Janice Chapman. She said Lisa begged for her life and explained that she disposed of the jeans found at the crime scene because Lisa's blood was on them.
31:45 Speaker 00 She also took responsibility for shooting at and throwing a bomb at the houses in Rome. She alleged that Kenneth Dooley raped her and Lisa Adair set it up. Okay, we have what seems like a lot of honesty here, or at least a lot of willingness to tell the details. Yeah. But Judith eventually changed her story and shifted some of the blame to her husband. I wonder, Gibbs, if that happened after she found out that he was pointing the finger at her. I'm gonna say I think so.
32:23 Speaker 00 Authorities believe Lisa was abducted from the mall and held captive in two hotel rooms in Georgia and Alabama over a three day period. Judith and Alvin raped Lisa in front of their children and kept her handcuffed to a bed, forcing her to sleep on the floor. I mean, what in the hell are we talking about here? Sexual assault, rape is absolutely horrible. It always is, right? It's hard to talk about, it's hard to think about. But then you add in this element that these two people are doing it in front of their children. Which is sick. It's all sick.
33:06 Speaker 00 It just makes it even worse somehow, if that's even possible. Judith claimed that at Alvin's direction, she took Lisa to the canyon and tried to inject her with drain cleaner to kill her. Judith injected her six times over a 30 minute period, but it didn't work. She then shot Lisa three times with a 38 caliber pistol. One bullet went through Lisa's back and exited from her chest, which killed her. When Judith was certain she was dead, she pushed her body over the edge of the cliff and watched her fall to the bottom of the canyon.
33:43 Speaker 01 Just sit there and watch her fall 80 feet, huh?
33:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, it sounds pretty sadistic, but also this drain cleaner thing. If you've got the 38 caliber with you, why are you bothering with the drain cleaner? And maybe she thought that the drain cleaner wouldn't be noticeable? And that the fall off the cliff would then look more like the cause of death, which could be viewed possibly as an accident. Obviously, shots from a 38 are not.
34:18 Speaker 01 No.
34:19 Speaker 00 Judith indicated she was alone. Alvin denied being there, but he also denied raping Lisa. Alvin initially denied ever being with Judith and Lisa, but witnesses saw him at both motels. He tried claiming that Judith performed a sexual act on him and put his semen in Lisa's body. But he was forced to admit that he raped Lisa when police refused to believe him.
34:48 Speaker 01 But he was trying to convince them.
34:50 Speaker 00 He was. It's just such an implausible explanation. Why, she was trying to frame me? So she committed a sex act on me and then put my semen in this woman's body? I just always wonder, Gibbs, did these people not realize how absolutely ridiculous they sound with some of these stories that they make up?
35:15 Speaker 01 It's, it's Preposterous.
35:18 Speaker 00 Yeah. I like the way you got that out, but I think you're, you're absolutely right. Either that, or they're just not smart enough to craft a believable story that could help explain away the evidence against it.
35:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, we know there's dumbasses out there.
35:36 Speaker 00 Well, there's a lot. Judith also confessed that five days after killing Lisa Milligan, she spotted a woman at a payphone who appeared to be alone, but the woman wouldn't go with her. I think that's the other thing I'm getting from this case is it's like Judith is out looking, stalking, hunting.
35:58 Speaker 01 She's a predator.
35:59 Speaker 00 Trying to find these women who are alone. Now she's able to get some to go with her, but my assumption is that there's a lot that she tried to get to go that didn't. And here's one she's talking about. Then Judith spotted Janice Chapman on October 3rd. Janice was with a man, but they decided they could get rid of him and take the girl. Judith invited them to go with her and they agreed. Judith called Alvin on the CB radio to let him know in coded language that she was on her way. They met on the outskirts of town. Janice and John got into Alvin's car and the children rode with Judith.
36:44 Speaker 00 And we talked about this a little bit, right? When they stopped, Judith forced John into the woods and shot him so that he was out of the way. She and Alvin took Janice to a motel and raped her repeatedly. Judith killed Janice and they dumped her body in a wooded area near a creek.
37:05 Speaker 01 Didn't she tell them why she had him in the woods at one point? You don't need to worry about your girlfriend.
37:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know how much you can believe from someone who is holding a gun on you and then ultimately shoot you. But the one thing that jumped out at me earlier, I waited, let's talk about it now, is the fact that all of this went down with the kids in Judith's car.
37:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:33 Speaker 00 So they are raping women in front of these children. They're taking these children along when people are abducted, people are shot. I mean, obviously they don't have a lot of regard for human life. We know that, but it's apparent that they had very little regard for their children as well.
37:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:57 Speaker 00 In his interview, Alvin gave the impression that he didn't want to commit the rapes and murders. And I think he's, he's trying his best, right? To say, you know what? Yeah, I was there, but I really didn't want to do all this. It was all her. She pressured me. I kind of went along with it. Now, normally that's not going to get you out of. No. It, but could it help soften things? The sentencing? Yeah, it could. If someone buys it, they decided they wanted to commit a third murder, but they would need some money first. They went to Murphysboro to pass some of their forged money orders,
38:38 Speaker 00 but someone recognized them from a police flyer and they were arrested. Alvin claimed the check cashing scheme was all Judith's idea, while Judith claimed they planned it together. Alvin drew a map to find Janice's body, which implicated himself in the crime. On October 15th, Janice Chapman's body was found about 15 miles southeast of Somerville in Chattanooga County on a creek bank about 400 yards from a road. She was shot twice in the chest and once in the back. Janice and Lisa Milliken were both shot with 38 caliber bullets. This type of ammunition was found in the Neelley's vehicles.
39:24 Speaker 00 Judith was charged with two counts of murder in Georgia and Alabama, as well as the shooting of John Hancock. Alvin was charged with one count of murder in Georgia. So we've talked about Alvin trying to kind of distance himself, wriggle out of this, or at least soften his involvement. And it sounds like he did a fairly good job of it. Yeah, I think it worked for him. Because he got charged with a little bit less than Judith did. On October 18th, Detective Kenneth Kynes revealed that Judith committed crimes to release the anger she felt towards the juvenile court system.
40:07 Speaker 00 Kynes noted that Albany authorities were tentatively investigating the Neelley's in connection with the shooting of 22-year-old Janice Hare on October 8th.
40:19 Speaker 00 Who was shot in the head and lost the baby she was carrying. Janice was on life support at the hospital. I mean, you want to talk about cold blooded. Pretty hard to believe that either Alvin or Judith or both didn't know that this woman was pregnant. But you know what, Gibbs? They didn't care.
40:43 Speaker 01 No, they didn't.
40:45 Speaker 00 They still shot her in the head, killing her baby.
40:49 Speaker 01 I mean, to do something like that, I guess it had to be terrible to what happened in Judith. If you believe Judith, that something happened at the youth center. But it had to be awful for her to do what she's been doing.
41:04 Speaker 00 But here's the thing, right? It's one thing to want to get back at an officer who you said raped you. And then there was one woman that she said helped set it up. But there's not a connection made to, to all these women, right? As having something to do with how she was treated in this youth development center. So I don't know how that plays.
41:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:34 Speaker 00 In every single case, I don't know how it can. Judith was indicted for capital murder in the Lisa Milliken case, meaning she faced the death penalty. Judith sought to be tried under the youthful offender act. If convicted as a youthful offender, she would serve just three years and pay a $1,000 fine. And I get it, she was younger, but to me, these are the acts of an adult. I mean, I think when you talk about trying juveniles as adults, I don't know how you could get a case that would warrant it that much more than what we've talked about.
42:18 Speaker 01 I'm just, you know, if you're the victim's family and you're hearing that she might only have to do three years and pay a thousand dollars.
42:26 Speaker 00 You're furious, right?
42:27 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
42:28 Speaker 00 Her petition was denied in December 1982. Judith's attorney then put forth an insanity defense based on battered woman syndrome. Judith was six months pregnant when she was arrested. Her son, Jason Alvin Neelley, was born in January 1983. Jury selection for Judith's capital murder trial started on May 7th, 1983. In opening statements, defense attorney Bob French said Judith shot Lisa because she was carrying out Alvin's orders. Alvin lured Judith away from her home in 1979, when she was 15.
43:11 Speaker 00 And according to French, robotized her into his slave through beatings and threats against her and their children. I've never heard that used as a verb, but essentially what he's saying is he turned her into robot.
43:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:29 Speaker 00 Right?
43:29 Speaker 01 Robotized.
43:31 Speaker 00 He was controlling her mind, all of that. He said Judith was beaten and brainwashed into procuring Lisa McCann as a sex partner for Alvin and followed his instructions in killing her. It was Alvin who spotted Lisa McCann in an arcade and told Judith, that's the one I want.
43:53 Speaker 01 When you hear it like that and you think about it, it just gives me.
43:59 Speaker 00 The willies?
43:59 Speaker 01 The willies, yeah.
44:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Now, we have a real conundrum here because, right? Alvin is saying some stuff that is completely different than this. Judith used her experiences from her time at the detention center to talk Lisa into running away with her while they were driving to a motel. Alvin was talking to Judith in code, instructing her to convince Lisa to have sex with him. She begged him not to, but he insisted. She watched while Lisa was raped at gunpoint.
44:38 Speaker 00 The defense called the murder of Lisa Milliken, the ultimate sex act for Alvin Neelley. They said, but that just whetted his appetite. And then it had to be Janice Chapman.
44:52 Speaker 01 Just wanted more.
44:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I think for the jury, you know, this is a tough one. You know, are they both equally culpable? Or if not, who's telling the truth here? Because they're saying completely different things.
45:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:09 Speaker 00 Bob French told the jury, as quoted by the Birmingham Post Herald, there are two Judy Neelys. The one you see here is very different from the one that was under the control of Alvin Neelley. Every move, every action, every thought for carrying out this heinous event was planned, calculated and instigated by Alvin Neelley. You know, I think a lot of defense attorneys, man, they can be really masterful.
45:38 Speaker 01 Oh, yes.
45:39 Speaker 00 With their words in trying to paint someone a certain way, whether it's trying to paint their client as less guilty than what they are or not guilty at all, or paint, you know, someone else, in this case, Alvin, as the person who was behind it all, did everything and just brainwashed their client.
46:06 Speaker 01 You gotta be good with being a wordsmith. You know, I taught that for a little while.
46:12 Speaker 00 To other defense attorneys?
46:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, that would make sense. Alvin instructed Judith to inject Lisa with drain cleaner. Judith told Lisa she would be giving her shots that would put her to sleep. And when she woke up, they would be gone and she could go home. When the injections failed to do anything, Alvin yelled at her to shoot Lisa and she did. Judith's earlier confession showed that she was trying to protect her abusive husband. And we talked about it, right? I don't think there's any doubt. Alvin came out of the gate pointing the finger at Judith. Judith didn't do the same thing from the very beginning.
46:55 Speaker 01 Right.
46:56 Speaker 00 You know, she admitted to some stuff, even said, oh, Alvin wasn't there, Alvin wasn't involved. I just wonder at what point her mindset changed and went from trying to protect him to trying to point the finger at him.
47:16 Speaker 01 Cover her own ass?
47:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, and, and maybe it was because she knew that she was safe from him. Or she had found out that, you know, he was throwing her under the bus. So she's like, hey, forget that. I'm, I'm coming back at you.
47:33 Speaker 01 All's fair play. Yeah.
47:36 Speaker 00 The prosecution argued that Judith was guilty and intended to terrorize and sexually violate this girl. The jury heard from John Hancock, who testified that a woman in a brown Dodge offered him and Janice a ride. They didn't need one, but the woman persisted. When they got into the car, the woman didn't drive them home. Instead, she met a man in a red Grenada. He turned two small children over to the woman and Hancock got in the car with the man. The cars went to a closed beer joint in Alabama, then to Somerville to look for a bootlegger. When they failed, they headed back to Rome and stopped on a dirt road.
48:20 Speaker 00 When Hancock had to relieve himself, he heard the man called Knight Rider tell the woman, if we're going to do it, let's get it over with. Okay. I think if you're out taking a leak and you hear that come across the CB,
48:38 Speaker 00 first of all, you, you need to hurry up or zip up or do something so you can be ready to defend yourself.
48:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. Don't want that dangling out there.
48:47 Speaker 00 You're, you're in a real precarious position right there.
48:51 Speaker 01 But you know, you hear that and you gotta think, okay, what's my options here? Run? Turn around?
48:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, you may not know exactly what they're talking about, but whatever it is, it can't be good. Right? If we're going to do it, let's get it over with. At the very least, you gotta be thinking robbery or something along those lines. The woman pulled a gun on him and forced him to walk down the road before he was shot. Hancock recalled the man yelling from a distance, hurry up, get it over with. We gotta go. Seconds before she pulled the trigger, the woman said, don't worry about your girlfriend. I'll take care of her too. Now Hancock didn't identify the abductors during his testimony, but it was clear he was talking about Judith and Alvin.
49:42 Speaker 00 And I do think, you know, the fact that this man survived the shooting, that had to have been big for prosecutors. Right. To have this guy be able to take the stand because he's still alive and recount what happened that night. The defense called on Alvin's ex-wife, Joanne Browning, who testified that Alvin beat her and continually abused her during their five-year marriage. Not surprised. He seems to have that personality. Where, you know, he could snap at any point. He obviously has no regard for women. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me either.
50:27 Speaker 00 Alvin experienced mad spells. Joanne explained by the Birmingham News, something about his eyes, when he got mad scared me. If I didn't do something, just the way he wanted me to do it, he'd just haul off and hit me. I've been bruised all over my body. He hit me in my head, in the breast area, on my legs and on my arms. He hit me all over, really. Joanne testified that she was Alvin's slave and said, yes, when asked if she would have killed someone if he asked her to. So again, you know, I think we're getting into the area of brainwashing somewhat.
51:11 Speaker 00 Or at the very least, getting to the point where you can exercise control over someone because you've molded them over the years. I think brainwashing goes hand to hand with that. Judith got on the stand and testified that she was terrified of her husband, saying, I do whatever he told me to do. I wanted to get away from him, but I couldn't. Her attorney asked her why she couldn't get away. Judith said, because he told me no matter where I went, he'd bring me back and I'd catch hell for leaving.
51:48 Speaker 01 I think that's what abuser is going to say.
51:51 Speaker 00 And, and so there could possibly be some truth to that, right? We've heard of that before. The jury's got a hard job here. Figure out who's telling the truth and who's not. Alvin was jealous and controlling, so much so that he followed her to the restroom and forbade her to look out windows of the motel or apartments they stayed in. Judith's attorney read letters she received from Alvin in 1981, while he was in jail and she was in juvenile detention. These letters exhibited the control. Alvin held over Judith. He wrote in one letter, you never really stood by me, except when there was fun and money.
52:36 Speaker 00 Every time I needed someone to talk to and stand by me, you were never there. In another letter, Alvin vowed to see that everyone who has made me unhappy, the rest of their lives will be unhappy and destroyed. I may smile, but on the inside, I want to destroy. And if I can, I will. In other letters, he wrote threats to Judith, such as, keep your nose clean. I don't want to hear the wrong things about you. There are two things I can do. Love you or destroy you.
53:11 Speaker 01 Wow.
53:12 Speaker 00 When you play, you pay. You're a real little girl, easy to push over. You fell for a little meathead punker with a line as old as you. After you see what I can do, you're going to wonder why you ever crossed me.
53:31 Speaker 01 He is definitely intimidating her.
53:34 Speaker 00 Well, and you know, having these letters, how far does that go in the minds of the jury? In possibly, you know, kind of corroborating her story? That he was the mastermind. She felt like there was nothing else she could do, but to go along with what he said. During her testimony, Judith told the jury how Alvin forced her to clean and stock the stores where he worked. He stole cash from registers. Forced her to steal cashier bank deposits and showed her how to forge money orders. In November 1980, less than two weeks before she had twins,
54:18 Speaker 00 he forced her to rob a woman at gunpoint in a mall. I mean, she's due in two weeks.
54:25 Speaker 01 Out there wielding a gun, robbing people.
54:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, not to say that she couldn't have done that of her own free will. It doesn't sound like something a lot of women, pregnant women, two weeks away from giving birth, want to be out doing. I know my wife just wanted to, you know, have her legs propped up and be on the couch and relaxing because it's a really hard time. Right? Most people aren't out waving guns and robbing people.
54:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it's probably pretty easy to give birth. Doesn't look that complicated to me.
55:06 Speaker 00 I'm glad you said that. I hope you get the most hate mail you've ever received.
55:11 Speaker 01 They know I'm joking, unless you edit that all out, but that one little piece I said, then I'm in trouble.
55:16 Speaker 00 I might, I might. Judith also testified that she tried several times to recruit sex partners for Alvin, but was unsuccessful before she picked up Lisa Milliken. She rode around the streets and shopping malls looking for girls. She said Alvin was supposed to have them as long as he wanted. Then I was supposed to get rid of them. I didn't question him. I went along with him and told him I would do it.
55:46 Speaker 01 So she was the one that was supposed to find them, bring them back. And then when he felt he had no more use for them, you need to go ahead and kill them for me.
55:57 Speaker 00 But can we go back to him having her do his work for him at his job? Now, I've heard of some lazy people, but.
56:07 Speaker 01 That takes the, takes the cake.
56:09 Speaker 00 It does. Judith testified that when they were reunited after Alvin got out of prison, Alvin suspected she had sex with employees at the juvenile detention center and beat her. She admitted it so that he wouldn't hit me anymore. Judith also testified that on October 9th, 1982, she asked her mother to call the Murphysboro Police and have her arrested, but she didn't have an explanation for why she did this. She testified that when she was arrested, she was with her husband and a woman named Casey, whom she picked up as a sex partner for him.
56:48 Speaker 00 After her arrest, she confessed to an FBI agent so Alvin wouldn't get in trouble.
56:55 Speaker 01 There's gotta be some type of brainwash for another woman to go out to find and bring back a sex partner for her husband.
57:03 Speaker 00 If she's telling the truth, right? I mean, I think you always have to throw that in there. Judith testified in depth about the murder of Lisa Milliken, saying, per the Birmingham News, "I told Lisa to turn around with her back to me. I was, I guess, about five or six feet away from her. I was holding the gun, but I couldn't pull the trigger. Al was hollering at me. He yelled, 'Do it, bitch.' I pulled the trigger. Lisa fell backwards and Al started cussing and said, 'I didn't do it right, or she would have fallen into the canyon,' like he said. He told me to put the gun up and push Lisa off into the canyon.
57:45 Speaker 00 Then Al came over to the edge of the canyon to make sure Lisa was dead. He looked over down, down at Lisa. He was smiling and I heard, I heard a sound, the sound that Al made whenever he sexually satisfied himself.
58:05 Speaker 01 Okay.
58:06 Speaker 00 Creepy.
58:07 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
58:09 Speaker 00 She said about Janice Chapman's murder, "I walked Janice out to where Alvin told me to, and I told her to turn her back to me. She had seen the gun. I had it down by my side. She didn't say anything. I was taking a little bit too long. Al hollered, 'Bitch, what are you doing this time?' I shot her once in the back. She started hollering. I was scared that someone was going to hear her. She had fallen backwards on her back. When she was hollering, I shot her two more times in the chest to shut her up. Alvin was laughing. He said he heard her holler. At trial, she maintained that Alvin directed
58:50 Speaker 00 every detail of the murders and had sex with both victims, and he vowed to get revenge for her nonexistent affairs at the youth development center. In closing statements, DA Richard Igaugh told the jury, "Contrary to what Mr. French has told you, Judith Anne Neelley is not the most important person in this case. Lisa Milliken was, even though she's not here. You can't forget that, and I don't think you have. Alvin didn't have the nerve to kill, but she did. She's got plenty of nerve. She meant to kill Lisa, and she did. On March 22, 1983,
59:34 Speaker 00 Judith Neelley was found guilty of murder and kidnapping. The jury voted for life in prison, but on April 18, 1983, Judge Randall Cole overrode the jury's recommendation and sentenced Judith to death. During the hearing, Judith got on the stand for 10 minutes of questioning by her attorney. She was asked how she felt about the possibility of getting the electric chair. She said, "I don't want to die. There's nothing I can do to change the past, but I can help stop something like this." From happening again, I can help battered wives and abused children. That's what I want to do.
1:00:16 Speaker 00 On December 13th, 1983, Judith pleaded guilty to kidnapping Janice Chapman and was sentenced to life in prison. She was to be the chief witness. At her husband's upcoming trial, prosecutors agreed to drop the murder charge in exchange for her testimony. But on December 28th, 1983, Alvin Neelley pleaded guilty to the kidnapping and murder of Janice Chapman a month before trial. He received two life terms. And you just wonder why he would decide to plead guilty. Is it because they took the death penalty off the table? I didn't read that, but that's a possibility.
1:00:58 Speaker 01 You can read into that, though.
1:01:00 Speaker 00 Or is it, you know, because he thought the evidence was just so overwhelming? He knew he was going to get convicted. Hey, I don't want to go through all this BS. She's going to testify against me. During her time in prison, Judith converted to Christianity and developed a relationship with another woman who shot herself in her home in May, 1994. The woman left a cassette recording of their plans to end their lives. Judith was found in her cell. She had slashed her wrists with a razor, but survived. Okay, so they had a, I guess what you would call a suicide pact, but Judith survived.
1:01:43 Speaker 00 On January 15th, 1999, Judy's death sentence was commuted by Governor Fob James in one of his final acts in office. James didn't give an explanation. State officials had planned to ask for an execution at the time of the commutation. So they were wanting to put her to death and instead her sentence was commuted.
1:02:09 Speaker 00 James acted without consulting Attorney General Bill Pryor, who expressed disappointment. The Governor's Act also shocked former DA Richard Igaugh, who said, "He did this without speaking to the DA's office or asking our opinion. It is clear he did not want us to be involved in his decision." Alvin Neelley died in prison on October 21st, 2005, while undergoing surgery. He was 52 years old and serving his sentence at the Bostick State Prison in Hardwick, Georgia. Because of the sentence commutation, Judith Neelley is now eligible for parole.
1:02:52 Speaker 00 She was first considered for release in 2014, but lost her bid for parole most recently on May 25th, 2023. The Alabama Board of Pardons and Paroles denied parole to Judith two days after the governor sent a letter strongly opposing her release.
1:03:13 Speaker 01 I bet.
1:03:14 Speaker 00 I mean, this is a woman who was on death row.
1:03:16 Speaker 01 Yeah. Maybe that previous governor thought, oh, well, she was a juvenile.
1:03:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, she was, and I didn't, I forgot to mention it, but at the time Judith Neelley was the youngest woman sentenced to death in the United States. But it's obvious to me, Gibbs, that there were a lot of people that thought what that governor did was BS. And then you have another governor later on, you know, writing a letter saying, hey, don't let this woman out.
1:03:52 Speaker 01 So she was the youngest woman in that state to be sentenced to the death penalty?
1:03:57 Speaker 00 It didn't say the state. It just said in the US.
1:04:00 Speaker 01 Oh, to get the death penalty. Wow.
1:04:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, because, you know, we said it. She was only 15 years old. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Judith McNeely remains incarcerated in Alabama. The former governor's decision to commute her sentence and the fact that Judith could possibly be released one day is upsetting to a lot of people due to the horrific crime she committed against vulnerable young women. While Judith claimed she was under the control of her abusive husband when she committed the two murders, investigators and prosecutors argued that she was a cold and calculated killer despite her young age.
1:04:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, she seemed to be pretty cold.
1:04:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, what she did undoubtedly was, I think the, the big question is who's telling the truth here? There's no doubt that both of them participated in some way, right? In finding these women, there was sexual components. And then obviously there was murder. The real question for me is, was she so scared of this man, Alvin, that she was willing to do whatever he said, including murder? Or was that just an excuse she used after she was caught? And I don't know the answer to that.
1:05:32 Speaker 01 I don't either. I think there's a little bit of truth in what they both said.
1:05:36 Speaker 00 There could be, there could be, but there's no doubt she did pull the trigger.
1:05:42 Speaker 01 Yes. It does help that there was a survivor.
1:05:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, it does. It does. And, you know, to be honest with you, it's hard for me to say that a 15 year old should get the death penalty. That's, that's a little tough.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:58 Speaker 00 Because I think the Supreme Court at some point did change that, or at least it couldn't be automatic or automatic life in prison. I can't remember what they, what decision they made, but I'm not saying some people don't deserve it because they do. But obviously she's not going to be put to death. I do think the fact that she could be released is. Is wrong.
1:06:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:27 Speaker 00 I do.
1:06:28 Speaker 01 Reason for her to be out.
1:06:30 Speaker 00 But that's it for our episode on Alvin and Judith Neelley. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:06:36 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:06:37 Speaker 02 Hello, my name is Anne from Littleton, Colorado. I'm a huge fan. I actually started listening to criminology to start with and then went back and listened to True Crime All Time Unforgiven. And now I'm working my way through True Crime All The Time. I had to stop and call and leave a voicemail. I'm on the Leonard Tversky episode. But I had to stop because Mike Ferguson talked about why he doesn't make his bed. It's a true waste of time and I 100% agree with that. I don't make my bed either for the same reason.
1:07:23 Speaker 02 Anyway, I just wanted to call and leave a voicemail. I was going to say that I am team Mike. All of you, more Ferg and Gibby. Love you all. But in this one particular case, I am team Fergie. So, thank you. Keep up the good work. I love all the shows you guys put out.
1:07:47 Speaker 02 Keep your head on a pillow and keep your own time ticking.
1:07:51 Speaker 01 Oh my gosh, that AI software that you used worked beautiful to get her to say team Fergie.
1:07:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I finally had to break down and use the, what is it? Chat GTP. I don't understand AI. I really don't. My wife's always talking about Chat GTP.
1:08:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:09 Speaker 00 And telling it to do things and it does it, but I don't really understand what it is.
1:08:13 Speaker 01 It's the husband she always wanted.
1:08:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is. Maybe she'll find that someday. But again, I do think making the bed is a waste of time. Now, I know a lot of people argued against me and they said, oh, it makes them feel better. They like to have it nice and neat. I just think it's wasted calories because. You're just gonna climb back in it. So if you're not washing the sheets, then there's no need to make the bed, in my opinion.
1:08:40 Speaker 01 You're not parading people through your bedroom at any point throughout the day?
1:08:43 Speaker 00 I don't care if I was.
1:08:45 Speaker 01 That's true.
1:08:46 Speaker 00 The whole town could come through. I don't give a rat's ass and you know it.
1:08:52 Speaker 00 Here's my bed.
1:08:53 Speaker 01 That's right. Move on.
1:08:55 Speaker 00 The only thing about it is it's not pulled up
1:08:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:59 Speaker 00 over the pillows.
1:09:00 Speaker 01 And you'd be like, and I know, so moving in this room right now, wish you would do the same.
1:09:04 Speaker 00 Exactly, but your wife won't let you.
1:09:08 Speaker 00 Oh, all right, buddy. We actually had some mailbag.
1:09:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:12 Speaker 00 Zach and Ariel Curran, who I know you met at CrimeCon. You said they were awesome.
1:09:17 Speaker 01 They were.
1:09:17 Speaker 00 They sent us a really nice holiday card.
1:09:20 Speaker 01 Oh, that's sweet.
1:09:21 Speaker 00 So I wanted to give them a shout out. It's very much appreciated.
1:09:23 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:24 Speaker 00 All right, that is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:09:29 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:09:30 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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