#880: Relationship Tools That Work — Esther Perel, Brené Brown, Dr. Sue Johnson, Terry Real, and More on Conflict, Repair, and Lasting Love

This episode is devoted to one deceptively simple question: How do you stay close to your partner over time through the inevitable exhaustion, misunderstanding, conflict, disappointment, and change? This episode is brought to you by: Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5 https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ with dual-zone temperature control, so each partner sleeps at their perfect temperatureIn this episode: Esther Perel begins with the basics: appreciation, affection, and replacing chronic complaints with clear requests. Brené Brown explains why marriage is never 50/50 and how she and her husband create what Brené calls a “plan of kindness.” Brad Feld describes the monthly “life dinners” that have helped him and his wife review the previous 30 days, talk honestly about the future, and prevent resentments from building upJim Dethmer offers a practical way to distinguish observable facts from the stories we make up about our partners. Sheila Heen explains how humor and genuine curiosity can serve as an interrupt on an argument that is heating up The late Dr. Sue Johnson then walks us through a “Hold Me Tight” conversation—a way of moving beneath anger and defensiveness to the fear, vulnerability, and need for connection underneath. Terry Real then offers a strikingly simple model for repair and introduces the term “normal marital hatred” - as he put it, nobody ever goes up to him and says “What do you mean by that?!”Finally, Diana Chapman describes what it means to let an outdated version of a marriage end so that two people can consciously choose what comes next for their relationship. Timestamps: Intro from Tim: 00:00:00 Esther Perel: 00:01:58 Brené Brown: 00:08:21 Brad Feld: 00:12:02 Jim Dethmer: 00:16:51 Shelia Heen: 00:23:04 Dr. Sue Johnson: 00:29:26 Terry Real: 00:40:14 Diana Chapman: 00:46:19 Short bios: Esther Perel https://www.estherperel.com/about is an internationally renowned psychotherapist, the New York Times bestselling author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, and the host of the award-winning podcast Where Should We Begin? Brené Brown https://brenebrown.com/about/ is the author of six number-one New York Times bestsellers exploring courage, vulnerability, shame, and resilience; a research professor at the University of Houston; and a professor of practice at the University of Texas at Austin. Brad Feld https://feld.com/about/ is an early-stage investor and entrepreneur and a co-founder of Foundry Group, Mobius Venture Capital, and Techstars. He writes on entrepreneurship, leadership, mental health, and sustaining a life beyond work. Jim Dethmer https://conscious.is/about/jim-dethmer/ is a co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group and co-author of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, an influential framework for building candid, responsible, high-trust relationships. Sheila Heen https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/sheila-heen/ is the deputy director of the Harvard Negotiation Project, founder of Triad Consulting Group, and co-author of the New York Times bestsellers Difficult Conversations and Thanks for the Feedback. Dr. Sue Johnson https://www.drsuejohnson.com/about/ was the pioneering clinical psychologist who created Emotionally Focused Therapy. She was named Psychologist of the Year by the American Psychological Association and appointed to the Order of Canada for her global impact on psychotherapy. Terry Real https://terryreal.com/about/ is an internationally recognized family therapist, a bestselling author, and the creator of Relational Life Therapy. He has spent more than four decades helping couples restore intimacy and connection. Diana Chapman https://www.dianachapman.com/ is co-author of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, a cofounder of the Conscious Leadership Group, and founder of the Signal Institute, working with leaders on radical honesty, somatic intelligence, and transformation.* For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is devoted to one simple question, but simple isn't always easy. Here's the question. How do you stay close to those closest to you over time? That could be your husband, your wife, your co-founder, could be just about anyone you are close to through the inevitable conflict, the misunderstandings, exhaustion, disappointment, change, and so on. In this compilation, we get a greatest hits from some of the minds I lean on for answering this type of question. Esther Perel begins with the basics. Then we move to Brene Brown, who explains why marriage or partnership of any type, frankly, is never 50/50 and how to navigate that.

• 0:45Tim Ferriss?

  Brad Feld describes the monthly life dinners that have helped him and his wife. Jim Dethmer offers a practical way to distinguish observable facts from the stories we all make up. Sheila Heen explains how humor and genuine curiosity can serve as tools. The late Dr. Sue Johnson, man, she was a legend, then walks us through the hold me tight conversation, which I've used myself. Terry Real then offers a very, very simple, strikingly simple model for repair and introduces the term normal marital hatred. I have yet to meet anyone married who is like, what is that? I have no idea what that is. And then finally, Diana Chapman describes what it means to let an outdated version of a marriage or any relationship end so that two people can consciously choose what

• 1:30Tim Ferriss?

  comes next for their relationship. And without further ado, please enjoy this very wide-ranging but very tactical conversation about relationships.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  First up, Esther Perel. Esther Perel is an internationally renowned psychotherapist, the New York Times bestselling author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, and the host of the award-winning podcast, Where Should We Begin?

• 1:58Esther Perel?

  So this is a question from Grégoire Fri-Fri via Facebook. Would love to ask her how to foster marriage longevity. Any exercises, routines, or habit would be great, especially around fostering deeper emotional relationships. There is the first basics, appreciation, just simply saying a lot of nice things, not taking things for granted, not forgetting to say thank you and please just because it's the person that you live with, making compliments, holding hands, kissing, stroking, sending sweet notes, buying flowers, preparing breakfast, bringing the coffee to bed, all those sweet things that people do that basically let you know that they live inside of you,

• 2:42Esther Perel?

  that you're thinking of them even when they're not there. These daily appreciations, they go a long way, and it sometimes is a real diligent effort to keep doing them. And then I am a strong fan of letter writing. I think that when you fly away, when you're away, when you're sitting in a cafe, when you just have a moment, to drop a note that is not just on the birthdays and on the anniversaries, just kind of your own musings about your lives together, your dreams, where you're going, how you met, what you remember, what you fancy. That is actually very much the kind of the telling of the story, you know, the story of the couple. There's a lot of intimacy in there. Touch is a major experience of intimacy.

• 3:26Esther Perel?

  I think when you do that, humor, and things that kind of really encourage the other person in which you recognize them at their most authentic, go do this thing, this is really something you really like, take a few more days, you know, you wanted to always take this class, go take this class, kind of ways in which you encourage the other person to be the best version of themselves and vice versa, be the best version of yourself with them. It's really basic, what makes a relationship sustain itself and be more nurturing. Next, Alicia Tenea Eichelberger via Facebook asks how to lessen arguments in your marriage.

• 4:08Esther Perel?

  Look, I think it's all about the art of speaking and listening. You know, there was a sculpture a few years back by Bruce Neumann, and it was a World Peace Project, and he had 23-inch monitors with faces of the most diverse group of people, diverse races, ethnicities, gender, ages, all of it. And every single person, every face was saying, I'll talk and you'll listen, you'll talk and I'll listen, they'll talk and we listen, you'll talk and we listen. And it just showed you the robustness of this most difficult art, which often I would say listening is harder than speaking. But then for some people, maybe speaking actually becomes the hardest thing.

• 4:50Esther Perel?

  In a relationship, you can often get the daily hassles in which you are grinding at each other, in which there's a friction going on. Don't sweat the small things is probably really important in terms of how people deal with arguments in a relationship. I would say, don't complain, ask. Behind every criticism, there's often a wish, because if you believe that your partner has done something wrong, that they didn't pay a bill on time or anything, and you wish that they had done it right, but instead of asking them to correct it, you basically tell them that you can never do it well, that they're doing this on purpose, that, you know, just ask them to do it better next time, rather than would it kill you?

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  Something simply, do you think that next time, you know, you could set a monthly alert so that you don't forget? It's a very different tone. It's a very different way of relating to the person. There's no contempt in that one, which we know from the research of John Gutman is one of the four horses of apocalypse. Actually, I'm going to give you the four horses, get really important. One is criticism, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. Those four are pretty much the killers in the land of arguments and relationship decline. You know, try not to talk with categoricals of always and never, all or nothing. That probably is one of the most important changes in vocabulary. Banish them.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  I always have to ask you, you never do this? No, the moment you say you never, the other person is going to come up with the one time that they knew and that they've done it so that they can defeat your argument, rather than really understand that you're asking them to do it more often, which is exactly why I say ask, don't complain. Add some humor, add some humor. There's nothing that's going to diffuse your arguments more than just putting some perspective into it and not take yourself so seriously. Show empathy. At the end of the day, you know, assume that your partner has the same interests as you to solve the stresses in your relationship. And for that to happen, it's important that both of you understand and appreciate the other person's point of view. Do you really think that the other person wants you to purposefully be annoyed or hurt

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  you or let you down? Probably not. It's all of that shift that takes you out of relationships that are mired in bickering, chronic, low-intensity warfare, or high conflict, because there's a range there. Okay? Imagine I ask you, has your arguing turned toxic? As in, does your partner keep telling you that you can never do it right? Or that they can never do it right by you? That every little convo about who should set the table will end up in a blowout about how dysfunctional your relationship is? Or that two minutes into a fight, one of you is saying, we should get a divorce or we should break up? That's what I'm calling a high-conflict couple.

• 7:44Esther Perel?

  The opposite of the arguments is you come in and you say, I want to listen to what you have to say, I want to apologize, what can I do to make this better? And not what can you do to make this better? Shift it around and you'll have magic happening.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Next up, Brene Brown. Brene Brown is the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers, Exploring Courage, Vulnerability, Shame, and Resilience, a research professor at the University of Houston, and a professor of practice at the University of Texas at Austin.

• 8:21Brené Brown?

  The other two hacks that I think have saved our marriage, besides just showing up and kind of using some of these things, like what's working, what was hard, is the 80/20. So everyone says marriage should be 50/50. It's the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever heard. It's never 50/50.

• 8:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 8:40Brené Brown?

  Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like, I got 20.

• 8:47Tim Ferriss?

  Just in terms of energy?

• 8:48Brené Brown?

  Just energy, investment, kindness, patience, I'm at a 20. And I'll be like, I'll cover you. I got you, brother. I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot, my mom has been sick, and I'll say, I've got 10. And Steve, like two days ago, said, I'm riding a solid 25. So we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than 100 combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other.

• 9:17Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I love that.

• 9:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah, because the thing is, marriage is not something that's 50/50. A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don't hurt each other.

• 9:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's the, you're threadbare.

• 9:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah. And so, so what we'll say is, I'm like, I've got 10. And he'll be like, I got maybe 25. We're like, Put all the groceries that are supposed to be great and healthy in the freezer. We're ordering out. Get the housekeeper here an extra day and we're canceling anything with people that we really actually don't like.

• 9:53Tim Ferriss?

  So how can we create some buffer in the system?

• 9:55Brené Brown?

  No, we do that. So like, and then, you know, then we'll like a day or two later, I'm like, he'll be like, I'm riding a 60. I'm like, oh my God, work is kicking my ass. I'm still at a 20. He's like, I got you, but we're a spare 20. So, you know, let's ask Charlie if he wants to skip water polo practice today and let's all turn in at eight o'clock. Like huge. The other thing I would say too, that now I'm thinking about that is we made a determination very early. There's kid focused families, parent focused families and family focused families. We're a family focused family. So that means that if you want to do water polo, Eagle Scouts, tennis and skeet shooting, and then that comes to the family and the family agrees what will keep the family healthy.

• 10:40Brené Brown?

  Like we can, we, you know, I've got a book launch. I've got this. Steve's got patients. He's taking on others, you know, he's a pediatrician. He's doing this. So what works for our family right now is you can do two extracurriculars and I'm going to have a two week tour, not a four week tour, but we put the family as the system that we serve.

• 11:00Brené Brown?

  It's not the kids at the parents' cost or the parents at the kids' cost. It's the family and it is remarkable.

• 11:07Tim Ferriss?

  How do you weigh? If you do it all, the voting system, so to speak, right? So if you all come to the table, does everyone have equal vote in the decision-making process?

• 11:20Brené Brown?

  No. No, this is a dictatorship. Yeah, like, yeah. No, fix my mind. Oh no, yeah, no, like we don't even bullshit around that. It's like when my kids, like, if I say like, oh shit, my kids are like, ooh, you can't say that. I'm like, I say anything I want. You can't say that. And when you're old enough, you can do whatever you want.

• 11:36Tim Ferriss?

  You get your cursing license.

• 11:37Brené Brown?

  Yeah, but right now I can totally do that. Watch me.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Next up, Brad Feld. Brad Feld is an early-stage investor and entrepreneur and a co-founder of Foundry Group, Mobius Venture Capital and Techstars. He writes on entrepreneurship, leadership, mental health and sustaining a life beyond work.

• 12:02Tim Ferriss?

  So if we're talking about links and breaking these artificial causal links, let's talk about another, what seems like a pattern interrupt, and that is your life dinners. Can you describe what these are?

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, this was another thing that came out of me and Amy's weekend in Rhode Island. So she said to me, as we're walking, I want to have dinner with you once a month, not a date night, but let's do dinner once a month. Let's do it on the first night of every month. I just want a commitment for that. And you know, him and how, gee, you know, I don't know whether I'll be in Boulder or Boston or New York or the Bay Area or whatever. And she looked at me and she said, do you have a calendar, an online calendar? Knowing full well, I did, of course. And I said, yeah, I have an online calendar. She says, does it have the ability for you to make a recurring calendar appointment? I said, yeah, I had the online calendar lets me do that.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Just how about if you make an online recurring calendar appointment from 6:00 PM Colorado time to 10:00 PM Colorado time on the first day of a month and have it repeat forever? I said, okay, I guess I can do that. So we did that. And so every month on the first day of the month, we have what we call life dinner. Now, 20 years of life dinners later, so what is that? A thousand something life dinners, which is awesome, by the way. We have a little flexibility. There are definitely nights where we, we will have it on the second or the third because something's going on, but we really commit to it. We used to go out to dinner. Now, a lot of times we just do it at home. Time of COVID, we for sure do it at home. We often, not always, but often start with a gift exchange.

• 13:43Speaker 04

  And the gifts could be trivial little things. Once she gave me a remote control fart machine. She's picked up a lot of jewelry and art from, from it over the years and books. One dinner, she gave me a Range Rover. So it's a full spectrum.

• 13:56Tim Ferriss?

  I really hope it was the same dinner that you gave her the, the, no, no, you didn't give her the fart machine. That would have been less popular.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  I think the Range Rover was to make up for the fart machine, but the fart machine was years earlier. And we sit down and if you're a fan of software development and you know what Agile is, we essentially do, the first half is a retrospective of the previous month and the second half is sprint planning for the next month. So again, very deliberately not a date night. We have plenty of those. This is, let's talk, each of us, you go first or I go first, doesn't matter, about the last month and what happened and what was good and what was bad and what we were unhappy about and what we wish we'd done differently and what we regret and what we're really satisfied with and anything, just retrospective.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  This is powerfully interesting because we started to learn that if Amy did something that really annoyed me on the 21st of the month, in the moment, I didn't have to react and cause us to have a three-hour personal meltdown on the 21st of the month. I could wait nine more days or 10 more days and it could be part, 11 more days, it could be part of our life dinner. And it gave us a marker for being able to resolve the conflicts that we would have with each other or express things positive and negative that we hadn't said in the moment. The forward sprint planning part of it is not go through the calendar for the next month,

• 15:28Speaker 04

  but talk about goals, aspirations, what we might want to do differently, what we're feeling in the moment that's making us uncomfortable about the future, what we're not, you know, afraid of, what we're worried about happening in the future, what's causing us in the moment real anxiety about the future. And, you know, anybody out there has had any therapy or done meditation, literally just naming the thing oftentimes gets rid of a lot of the anxiety. Just labeling it, just calling it out and saying it out loud. And so these dinners, sometimes the conversation, the life dinner part of the conversation might go five or 10 minutes and sometimes it might go three hours.

• 16:11Speaker 04

  And sometimes there was a laughter and sometimes there were tears and sometimes there were both. And it's just such now, 20 some odd years later, a comfortable way to re-ground ourself as a couple roughly every 30 days in what is a very, very challenging and complicated world.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Next up, Jim Dethmer. Jim Dethmer is a co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group and co-author of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, an influential framework for building candid, responsible, high-trust relationships.

• 16:51Speaker 05

  As you look at your close relationships, whether it be with your parents or with your siblings or children, this idea of, are we willing to be candid? I want to say something here, Tim, because people misunderstand this. They think that if I'm below the line, if we keep using that language, then people will say, I don't have a problem being candid. God, you ask anybody in my world, they'll tell you I'm candid. I tell it like it is. But what they're really saying is they're kind of living a scorched earth policy where they tell the truth all the time, but they're rigid and righteous about being attached to their truth. So we don't call that candor.

• 17:36Speaker 05

  What we call candor begins with the ability to differentiate facts from stories. Facts are data. Facts are what is totally unarguable. Facts are that which all reasonable people would agree to. Facts, the facts of life. Stories are judgments, opinions, beliefs, interpretations that we make up about the facts. So for example, a typical thing would be I walk in the house, Debbie's standing there. Fact, a video camera would record that the corners of her mouth are turned down slightly in what one could call a frown. That's a fact. Video camera would record it.

• 18:21Speaker 05

  Now my mind starts making up stories. Debbie's upset with me. I did something wrong. She's going to criticize me. And now I start reacting to the stories, defending, justifying, explaining, reacting to the stories, even though the stories are all made up in my mind. So candor, practicing conscious candor, first you differentiate fact from story. And then you reveal your stories, holding them lightly. So from below the line, I want to be right about my stories and prove that I'm right

• 19:05Speaker 05

  because my ego identification believes it can only survive if it's right. So what that would look like is, you know, from below the line, I'd say, what are you upset about? I'm only 10 minutes late and I know I forgot the milk, but God, I was very busy. So now I'm revealing my story that she's upset in a reactive modality while holding tightly to my story that A, she is upset at me and B, she shouldn't be. That's truth telling. That's not what we're talking about at all. Candor, I differentiate fact from story. And here's what this might look like. I walk in the house and let's say I'm above the line in present, which I might not be. I might say something like this, hey, when I look over, it looks like you're upset.

• 19:49Speaker 05

  I'm making up the story that you're upset. And rather than get all scared and reactive to that, first thing I do is just want to tell you I'm making up that story and I want to check it out with you. Are you upset? And by the way, when I make up the story that you're upset, I notice I get defensive. Furthermore, probably what I really get is scared because I don't want you to be pissed off at me, but I'm going to reveal myself to you, Debbie. Not from being right. This act of candor is an act of incredible vulnerability. I'm going to let you know me. I say it all the time. I'm going to let you know what's going on on planet Jim. My thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, wants, desires, so you can know me, not so that I can prove I'm right.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  And by the way, this kind of candor goes hand in hand with conscious listening. People always want to say, I want a more candid relationship with my partner. I say, great. Before you start revealing, start listening. Start becoming a person to whom others will reveal themselves candidly because you see them and you hear them and you get them. Then as they feel safe to reveal themselves, you'll find that the relationship becomes more safe for you to reveal yourself. So candor and conscious listening go hand and

• 21:15Speaker 05

  glove. But again, it's a co-commitment, right? Debbie and I said, we want to remove all barriers to closeness. One of the barriers to closeness is not revealing ourselves to each other. It's so easy to hide out for fear of being rejected, for fear of being criticized. The risk, and Deb and I have been practicing candor for decades, Tim, and there's almost always some edge of candor where I could reveal a thought, or I could reveal a judgment. In our case, specifically about our children, because it's our second relationship. Debbie has four boys, I have two girls. Well, sometimes I have judgments

• 21:55Speaker 05

  about her boys. It's always risky to say to her, hey, I just want to tell you, I had a judgment coming up in me about so and so. She cares about her boys and she's irrationally involved in them, just like I am with my girls. Every time I practice vulnerability in candor in my intimate relationship, there's a modicum of fear that comes up. Because who knows how she's going to react? We do have decades now of practicing, so pretty good chance that we'll work it through. So that's what candor is. Differentiate fact from story, hold your story lightly, reveal to the other for the sake of being known, not for proving you're right, and practice deeply listening so the other person trusts

• 22:40Speaker 05

  you enough to reveal themselves. That's a short primer on candor.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Next up, Sheila Heen. Sheila Heen is the Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project, founder of Triad Consulting Group, and co-author of the New York Times bestsellers, Difficult Conversations, and Thanks for the Feedback.

• 23:04Speaker 06

  My guess is that you're familiar with the research by John Gottman up in Seattle.

• 23:09Tim Ferriss?

  I have some familiarity, but please provide an overview.

• 23:14Speaker 06

  Well, an overview, just a connection to the question that you just asked. So he invites married couples into his lab and he invites them to talk about an issue that's stressful between them, to have a difficult conversation, essentially. Hooks them up to heart monitors and videotapes and all of that. And then, you know, he says that he can watch for five minutes and predict with, there are different numbers based on his different studies, but 90-ish, 90, 92% accuracy whether they'll divorce within three or five years. Part of the reason I name this is that, for me, it really says, it's not just that we have difficult conversations in our most important relationships. Those conversations are the

• 23:54Speaker 06

  relationship. That if we find a way to have them productively or constructively, then the relationship will thrive, whether it's a personal or a professional relationship and/or it's where we start to disengage because you just don't get it and you won't listen. And the relationship starts to fray. So what Gottman is listening for are what are the indicators, right, that he's listening for that tell him which direction it's going to go. And one of them is that as a conversation gets heated and starts to escalate, one of the spouses will often make a joke. But the purpose of the joke is that it's an invitation

• 24:36Speaker 06

  to step outside this argument and to see it for what it is, to see what's happening, which is that this is the conversation we usually have and how it usually goes. And so often, it's a little bit of an inside joke. But humor, by the way, I listened to your conversation with Anne Lamott, who I absolutely adore.

• 24:54Tim Ferriss?

  She's a treasure.

• 24:55Speaker 06

  She is a treasure. And what does she call it? Laughter is carbonated.

• 25:00Tim Ferriss?

  Holiness.

• 25:01Speaker 06

  Holiness, yeah. So laughter also in the brain just gives us a little bit of instant perspective, that we suddenly see the absurdity of our own behavior in many cases. And so it's an invitation to just name what's happening. It's like a meta move. So for instance, with my husband, who also teaches negotiation, by the way, so.

• 25:23Tim Ferriss?

  Love to be a fly on the wall for some of those.

• 25:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, you can imagine. But we fight about how we fight. That's the fight we usually have.

• 25:30Tim Ferriss?

  It's like my friends' kids, my friends who are therapists, and their kids are like, stop therapizing me.

• 25:36Speaker 06

  Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we're like, yeah, you're not listening. Oh, a little less difficult conversations. Yeah. So that's the fight we have.

• 25:45Tim Ferriss?

  Stop putting your baton in my face.

• 25:47Speaker 06

  That's right.

• 25:49Tim Ferriss?

  That's the best alternative to negotiated agreement, folks. Inside joke, yes.

• 25:53Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah, exactly. That was very nice inside baseball joke. Yeah, waving your baton around in a romantic relationship is not usually a successful strategy. You know, there are a lot of people who would find me very appealing. But one of the jokes that he and I make when we have the wherewithal to do it is like, why will you not just admit, I am good and you are bad? That is what this is about, right? It's about who needs to apologize, whose fault this is, et cetera. So as things escalate, your ability to just name that underlying dynamic sometimes makes the other person laugh and you can step out of it for a moment. And then that gives you the opportunity to say, look, obviously

• 26:33Speaker 06

  we've had this conversation several times. I'm not understanding why, fill in the blank. I'm not understanding why what I'm suggesting doesn't make sense. Help me under, like genuinely, help me understand that. Or I'm not understanding what you're most worried about here. That often helps. And it needs to be a genuine ask. You can't say like, what are you worried about? Because that's really a hot question. It's like, you shouldn't be worried about anything. So why are you being so stupid as to be worrying about something? As long as you can step outside, see, oh, I'm not being serious right now. And I don't have

• 27:15Speaker 06

  to pretend that I agree to do it. I think that's really the key. And I don't have to say, there's no truth. But from where I sit, I can only see some of the pieces of the puzzle. You have the other pieces of the puzzle. Putting those pieces on the table for discussion is how we figure out what we have to work with. And then, at the end of the day, we still might not agree about this, but it might open up new options for how we handle it.

• 27:44Tim Ferriss?

  You guys know I love wearables. I'm sure you do as well. And they're great. But they give you data. Typically, they do not give you solutions. That's why I absolutely love the Pod by this episode's sponsor, Eight Sleep. I've been using their stuff for many, many years now. It fits over your existing mattress, tracks your heart rate with 99% accuracy, plus respiratory rate, HRV, and sleep stages. It is wild how much it correlates accurately to the stuff that you wear on you. Then the Pod's autopilot analyzes your biometrics and automatically adjusts your bed temperature while you sleep, with independent temperature control for couples, also important for domestic peace. Users report falling

• 28:26Tim Ferriss?

  asleep up to 44% faster. This matches with my experience. I've experimented with all sorts of stuff, countless sleep aids, and I've yet to come across a better solution than both measures and fixes my sleep within the same system. Summers don't need to mean terrible sleep. So go to eightsleep.com, that's spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, eightsleep.com/tim and use code TIM for $350 off of the Pod 5. With their 30-day trial and free returns, you can try it out risk-free. So check it out, eightsleep.com/tim.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Next up, Dr. Sue Johnson. Dr. Sue Johnson was the pioneering clinical psychologist who created emotionally focused therapy. She was named Psychologist of the Year by the American Psychological Association and appointed to the Order of Canada for her global impact on psychotherapy.

• 29:26Tim Ferriss?

  Could you walk us through what a hold me tight conversation is?

• 29:30Sue Johnson?

  A hold me tight conversation, very briefly, is a bonding conversation. The tricky part is that, as adults, some of us have never seen this conversation. So it's a dance that is foreign to us. We've never had it with our own parents. We've never had it with siblings. We've never had it with previous lovers. And we get married or we get committed to a partner. And it's reasonable that we don't know how to go there. Because many of us, it's just not a drama that we've ever seen enacted. A hold me tight conversation is where one person is able to open up and reach for the other person and share vulnerabilities,

• 30:14Sue Johnson?

  talk about their needs and fears in a way that pulls the other person close. It helps the other person reach back and respond.

• 30:24Tim Ferriss?

  Could you give any examples of phrasing or questions?

• 30:27Sue Johnson?

  Sure.

• 30:29Tim Ferriss?

  Or guidelines you provide? That would be, I know I would love to know, and I suspect others would too.

• 30:33Sue Johnson?

  Well, when you don't trust, you don't feel safe, and you've never seen a hold me tight conversation, the way it usually goes, just naturally as human beings, I catch myself doing this with my husband. If I'm upset about something, like he's been going to bed very early, and that means that we don't have our snuggle time, we don't have our little chat time, okay? And it doesn't seem to bother him at all. It doesn't bother him this isn't happening. So this will go on for a couple of weeks. And even though I'm doing this work, there's a certain point where I start to get self-protective, and I start to blame him in my head. And I say, he's always too busy. He's got his lists. He's got lists. That's what he, and he's a man, and he's got lists. And all he cares about is his list of tasks. And he's just into problem solving.

• 31:18Sue Johnson?

  And he doesn't think about me at all. And this dialogue will go in my head. So I turn to him and I say, you're going to bed very early? These days? Listen to my voice. It's the emotional music. He says, no, I'm not.

• 31:34Sue Johnson?

  Because he hears the threat in my tone. I say, yes, you are. And you've been going to bed for weeks? And I guess it doesn't matter to you that we're not having those close moments? Now, listen to me. I mean, I'm on the attack. And we are acutely sensitive as human beings to signs of rejection or abandonment by the people we love. Acutely sensitive. That's how we're wired. So he hears that he's blown it. He hears it that I'm rejecting him, I'm telling him he's done something wrong. So he says, I don't want to talk about this right now. I say, oh, let me guess, you have to go to bed because you're so tired.

• 32:14Sue Johnson?

  Right, so we're off, right? Okay, that is the typical demand-withdraw, demand-defend dialogue that you'll see in a distressed couple. And it's totally predictable. You can also have it with your kids. I can remember a glorious argument I had in Starbucks with my adolescent son that was just a perfect example of the way distressed couples talk to each other. So I'm blaming and pointing fingers, and he's rolling his eyeballs and basically telling me what a dreadful mother I am. So you can have it with anyone, but with partners, it's very predictable. And it has everyone feeling completely threatened and unsafe, and unable to dance together. If you shift that into a hold me tight conversation, the way it would go

• 33:00Sue Johnson?

  is that I would be more able to tune into my own needs, more aware of my own needs, accepting of my own needs. And I would realize, oh, I'm really missing those conversations with John. We've been married for 32 years. We're both very strong people, so it's been quite an adventure. So I think, oh, I'm missing those relationships with John. And maybe he doesn't miss them. And oh, that makes me feel really somehow anxious and uncomfortable if he doesn't miss them. Because the big question in love relationships is, are you there for me? Do I matter to you? Can I count on you?

• 33:42Sue Johnson?

  Maybe those conversations don't matter to him, but they really matter to me. So I am aware on a different level of me, and I'm specifying, that scares me a bit, that maybe these conversations don't matter to him. I can tune into my own emotions. Then I take the risk and reach for him and say to him, I'm open. I say to him, you know what? We haven't been having our usual talks late at night. And somehow it doesn't look like you miss them. And somehow that makes me feel kind of really sort of uncomfortable. You know, it almost feels like I'm not sure that that closeness matters to you.

• 34:27Sue Johnson?

  And so I could get angry about it. But actually, what's happening is, it sort of scares me a bit because I need those conversations. Now, I've talked about my fears and my needs. I can only do that if I have some sort of model that it's okay to do that, that that doesn't mean I'm a wimp, or mentally ill, or weak, or pathetic. From my point of view, it's strength to do that. And that's what we teach, and it's strength to do that. And that's what securely attached people can do. They can reach from a position of vulnerability. So I say that to him. And that pulls him, he says, oh, you're right. Yeah, I do want those conversations.

• 35:12Sue Johnson?

  I've just been so exhausted. And I've been doing this, and I haven't wanted to tell you how stressed out I am. So then it becomes reciprocal. I say, oh, I didn't know that you were so stressed out about this decision we've made, and that it's taking up all your energy and you're worried about it. So then we start to have an open, responsive, engaged conversation where we can share vulnerabilities, comfort each other, and you're literally better at tuning in to each other. And I think that's because when I feel safe, I can tune into you. When I think about the people I can dance with in tango really well, it's the people I feel emotionally safe with.

• 35:57Sue Johnson?

  And I know that there's no mistakes, because mistakes don't matter, we're just playing. Then I relax, I'm in my body, I tune into their cues, and we move together naturally. So that's kind of what happens. And it's a hold me tight conversation. And it's sort of cascades. Each time you have this conversation, it's, your nervous system goes, ah, this is comfort, this is home, this is safety, this is, this is what I need. And you see your partner as a resource. You see your partner as somebody who can provide this safety, comfort, caring,

• 36:37Sue Johnson?

  reassurance, social support, if you want to use a psychological formal term for it. You see your partner as this person, and your partner connects, and you know how to do this dance. This dance is innately rewarding. It creates joy in people. You don't have to persuade people to keep doing it, like going to the gym, or meditation, or their communication skills. People will do this. Once they know how to do it, they'll keep doing it. And that's why I think we get good follow-up results. Because once you start having these conversations, and it's very moving sometimes to see people's

• 37:20Sue Johnson?

  response, like people will start to cry and say things like, when they discover these hold me tight conversations, people will say, I'm thinking of one man who said, I never knew that you could talk to somebody like this. I never knew that you could ask for these things. And that she wants me to be vulnerable to her. I never knew that. I never saw that growing up. I didn't know people did that. And then he wept. And he turned to the therapist and said, I've been alone all my life, haven't I?

• 37:59Sue Johnson?

  And that, what attachment science tells us is that emotional isolation is toxic for human beings. I mean, we found out that in the pandemic, but we still don't get it. I wish we would get it on a different level. It's toxic for human beings. It's not who we are. And when people start to have these hold me tight conversations, all kinds of amazing things happen. They don't just understand how relationships can be and how you can shape relationships. You don't have to just have them happen to you. You can shape love. They understand something very deep about themselves. Couples grow each other in

• 38:40Sue Johnson?

  safe relationships. Couples grow each other. I watch severely traumatized people learn to trust another human being by having these hold me tight conversations with their partner, and it changes everything. Because they have a secure place in life for the first time. They feel seen, they feel accepted, they feel held. And once you feel seen, accepted, and held, there's a natural human growth process that happens. Attachment, the science is all about development of the personality. There's a natural growth process. So we tune into that natural process in the hold me tight conversation. And those conversations

• 39:23Sue Johnson?

  predict, over study, after study, after study, after study, those conversations predict success in EFT. They predict more secure bonding. They predict better sex, more sexual satisfaction in couples. They predict any sort of measure of good, positive functioning you can imagine. Those bonding conversations predict all the good results we get in EFT, and they predict results that follow up.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Next up, Teri Reel. Teri Reel is an internationally recognized family therapist, a bestselling author, and the creator of Relational Life Therapy. He has spent more than four decades helping couples restore intimacy and connection.

• 40:14Tim Ferriss?

  What is another term that I'd never heard before being exposed to your work, "normal marital hatred"?

• 40:21Speaker 08

  I got this from Eltronic, infant observational researcher. Eric Longwood, Barry Brazelton, was the first generation, since Freud, what we said about child development all came from listening to adults. We didn't want to hear kids. And he was one of the first people to actually plonk a video camera in front of mothers and infants, and then fathers and infants, and actually look what happens. And what he came up with, I borrowed, and it's central to RLT, which is, "The essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness." That's where the skills come in, how to move from disruption to repair. Our culture doesn't teach it. Our culture

• 41:06Speaker 08

  doesn't even acknowledge, "A good relationship is all harmony." Just like a good body is pure. A good body is like a 20-year-old body. A good sex life is like, you know, what you had when you were two weeks into the relationship. No. All harmony is bullshit. Bullshit. One of the things I like about you, Tim, is you tell the truth. You know what? You go to a cocktail party, and you're, "Oh, there's Harry and Shirley. They're in their 80s. They still have sex. They love each other." One of these days, I'd like to go to a cocktail party and hear, "There's Harry and Shirley. They actually split up for a year. He fell in love with another woman. He couldn't take it because

• 41:48Speaker 08

  she was such a drunk. But then she got into AA and got sober. And the two of them are really doing reasonably well. Aren't they cute?" Just warmth, like if you hear that. Bro, we don't deal with reality. The father of couples therapy back in the 50s said, "The day you turn to the person who was next to you, it was assumed it was your marriage, you say, 'This is a mistake. I've been had. This is not the person I fell in love with.'" That said, "Fremo is the first day of your real marriage." So here's what I want to say about disharmony. You ready? It hurts. It's dark. You can really, really feel like,

• 42:32Speaker 08

  "What the hell did I get myself into? This is such a disappointment." And guess what? Your partner's probably feeling that about you, too. So I talk about "normal marital hatred" when you're in that dark phase. You hate your partner. That's okay. Don't kill yourself or her. That's okay. I'll teach you how to get through it. But it's part of the deal for many of us. And here's what I like to say. I've been going around the world talking about normal marital hatred for, oh my God, what, 30 years? This is true. Not one person has ever come backstage and said, "Teri, what do you mean by that?"

• 43:13Speaker 08

  Don't sweat it. You can get through it. It's normal. Relax.

• 43:17Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the first steps or tools that you would recommend to someone listening who agrees with what you're saying but has had no models for repair, has never learned how to use any type of approach for repair? And this is something that your direct help and then also your books have really helped me with, because I did not grow up in a household with repair, right? It was basically, one person screams, then the other person goes to fix, which they don't really want to do, but it's their attempt to basically quell the disaster and fury, and that's it. Then everybody's kind of upset, and it never gets dressed. That was the model growing up. What do you suggest to people who want to start with repair?

• 44:01Speaker 08

  You know, of course, I'm tempted to say, "So are you a screamer or a fixer?" But I won't. I'll leave that alone.

• 44:06Tim Ferriss?

  I'm a fixer. I'm not a screamer.

• 44:08Speaker 08

  Oh, okay. Lucky for your partner. But the problem is the resentment that builds up.

• 44:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. Yep.

• 44:15Speaker 08

  Yeah. Okay, so repair. First of all, here's, I like to say I have a number of bitter pills to swallow. But if you swallow them, things will be a lot better in your life. And here's one of them. Repair is a one-way street. Everybody gets that wrong. It's not a dialogue. It's not, "Well, these are your issues with me. Well, these are my issues with you." No. You have your turn, but not then. Take turns. So if you have a disgruntled partner, you are at their service. That's the first thing to master. You know, I like to say, "Tim, you're at the customer service window." Somebody comes to customer service window and says, "My microwave doesn't work." They don't want to hear you say, "Well,

• 45:00Speaker 08

  my toaster doesn't work." Don't want your excuses. Fix the goddamn microwave. Tend to your partner and bring them back into repair with you. Tend to them. Put yourself aside and tend to them. What does that look like? Two things. First, do I get it? Listen. Don't argue. Don't rebut. Empty the well. "I'm sorry you feel bad." That's beautiful. Compassion. "I'm sorry you feel bad. I love you. I don't want you to feel bad." Help me understand. What feels bad? What's it like for you? Okay. Then you reflect. This is what I hear you say. Did I get it? Yeah, good enough. Good. Two, is there something

• 45:42Speaker 08

  I could say or do right now that would be helpful? What would you like? Who says that? And then if anything should have jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, give it to them. Be generous. Those are the basics.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Last but not least, Diana Chapman. Diana Chapman is co-author of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, a co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group, and founder of the Signal Institute, working with leaders on radical honesty, somatic intelligence, and transformation.

• 46:19Tim Ferriss?

  I would like to, if you're open to it, shift a little bit to relationships. And I want to ask you.

• 46:30Tim Ferriss?

  Specifically about your partnership with Matt. So here's one of your superpowers, as listed from Mr. Jim. Creating and sustaining a wonderful intimate partnership with Matt, her husband and lover, since they were teenagers. Have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship alive and vital, growing and intimate. If you are game to talk about that, I would be very interested.

• 46:56Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 46:57Tim Ferriss?

  To hear more.

• 46:58Speaker 09

  Well, it's a challenge. It's both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young, get to grow up together. There's a lot of shared memories and shared friends. And there's a sweetness that it started out with, you get to keep. And there's also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change. And so several times, at least three key times in our relationship, we've been willing to let it all go. And we've basically killed it off. Just said, the relationship as it was is done. Now let's just check and see what is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward? Maybe it's just friends, co-parents, maybe it's lovers, staying married. What is it?

• 47:42Speaker 09

  And so we have a lot of courage, both of us, to be willing to let go of what's not working and trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself. And it just so happens that it continues to be us married. And I think we play around often, sometimes we'll get up in the morning and I'll say something like, hey, you want to be married today? And he'll say, oh, well, what would that mean? What kind of a husband do I need to be? And we'll giggle and play around with, well, you know, how about this and this? And then we choose. And that is, for me, we're always choosing over and over again. And we always are willing to, kind of to the point of using the work with Byron Katie

• 48:24Speaker 09

  of, I'm willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married. And what that has created is an incredibly vital, creative, ever-evolving, passionate marriage in which we're freed up to keep exploring new ways of being together. And I am really proud of my relationship. I think it's one of the greatest things I've ever done is the marriage that I have. We get a lot of feedback that it's an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who look to it. And I do think it comes with the courage to say no.

• 49:01Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned if, at least, I think you said three times, that you've had this type of conversation. I would like to zoom in on the first conversation. Were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation? Did one side initiate the, hey, let's decide if we want to remain as is or if we want to take one of these other forms? I'm just wondering, for people who are listening, who have never had one of these conversations, maybe they've been at the breaking point, but they've never had this conversation.

• 49:40Speaker 09

  I initiated it. It wasn't Matt's idea. I said, hey, I'm, it isn't working for me, the way we're in relationship. And there's a different kind of a man I want to be with than how you are. And I want another possibility. And so I didn't know how to do all this. I was just toddling around, trying to figure this out. And yeah, I said, I don't want to do it this way anymore. And so I thought that might mean that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage. And I was willing to. We actually got some support from counselors about telling our kids that we were going to divorce.

• 50:21Speaker 09

  That's the only direction it seemed like we were going to go. And then I had this great advice from a friend who said, okay, Diana, I love you both. If you think divorce is what needs to happen, that's great. But I hear you complaining that there's a certain man you want him to be, that he's not. And she said, who is the woman you would need to be to call forward that man?

• 50:45Speaker 09

  And my stomach dropped. And I thought, I don't want to, I don't know about that. What? And I realized, oh, I would need to be a different woman. So we said, let's kill off this old marriage and let's see if we can create a new one. And I'm going to keep asking myself, who do I need to be to call forward the man I want to be with? And about six months later, I was with the man I wanted to be with. And I remember saying to him, you really changed. And he said, no, you really changed. And the truth is, we both really changed. But I was really grateful for that first conversation of being willing to let it go

• 51:26Speaker 09

  and then getting the feedback of, hey, if you're the creator of who's showing up over there, who do you need to be? And for many months, I felt like I was going to throw up 24/7, learning to be a much more vulnerable, needy woman who called forward the man who could protect and lead in a way that I hadn't been willing to be in the past.

• 51:51Tim Ferriss?

  How did you, thank you for sharing all this, by the way, and very courageous and vulnerable. And how did you figure out who you needed to be, who that woman was to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with? Did you have help? Was it obvious, once you sat with it, in terms of the changes that needed to be made on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop? How did you arrive at the answers?

• 52:24Speaker 09

  At first, I didn't know. I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question. I believe that fear is, when we're present, is an intelligence that says, something needs to get learned. Something needs to get learned. So when I had that fear, I thought, oh, wow, something needs to get learned. I don't know something here. And so that was my first clue that her question was powerful, is the fear that arose in me. And I just kept asking the fear, what needs to be learned? I just kept being really broad in that curiosity. I got into a state of wonder. I wonder who I would need to be to call forward the man I most want to be with? I just kept asking that.

• 53:09Speaker 09

  I wonder. And I let it be okay that I didn't have to know, because I didn't know. I've been, you know, with him for a long time and I didn't know. So I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own experience so far. And so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way. And it was baby steps, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there. And we've had several versions of that often, or not often, but the three versions were all some version of me, something needs to get learned for the next evolution here of this relationship.

• 53:51Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared if they get to these decision points? Or just overall, with respect to nurturing sort of a healthy, co-created relationship? Are there any books, any particular practices that you would highlight for folks?

• 54:23Speaker 09

  Matt and I studied with Gay and Katie Hendricks for years at the Hendricks Institute. They did a lot of relationship work. They still do a bit of it. But I learned so many tools there on how to get off the drama triangle. I learned about personas and about how I get caught in these personas that then unconsciously require the persona of my partner to show up in a certain way that then I complain about. And I learned about how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to. I learned about the importance of feeling my feelings. I learned about really questioning my stories. I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples and making sure that I honored both sides, the polarity equally.

• 55:08Speaker 09

  For example, a lot of couples argue about money. And almost always, there's one that we call the gas and one who's the brake and somebody who's more free-flowing with money and somebody who's more controlling about money. And can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them? Because usually I was the one who wanted to spend the money and my husband wanted to hold on to the money. And we would get into a battle about, you know, you're keeping me from having joy in my life because you're so stingy about money. And he'd say, you're going to make us all broke because you're just so unconscious about spending it. And so honoring that those two sides of the polarity are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance to take care of ourselves and have fun.

• 55:52Speaker 09

  And so those are all different skillsets. There's so many different tools.

• 55:58Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on, that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 56:40Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange, esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.