#674 - Scott Payne

Scott Payne is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement, often going undercover with extremist groups. He is the co-author of “Code Name Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover To Expose America’s Nazis”. Scott joins Theo to explore the secretive world of FBI training, the mechanics of online radicalization, and a brush with the occult during a neo-Nazi infiltration. Scott Payne: https://www.instagram.com/scottpaynebigcountry/?hl=en Scott’s book: “Code Name Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover To Expose America’s Nazis”: https://bit.ly/4woNDQt ------------------------------------------------- Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ Moonpay: https://moonpay.onelink.me/O2ia/t34p5kxg Blue Chew: Discover your options at http://BlueChew.com! Buy two months and get the third for FREE with promo code THEO. Better Help: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. See if BetterHelp is right for you at http://BetterHelp.com/Theo Manscaped: Thanks to MANSCAPED for sponsoring today’s video! Get The Beard Hedger Plus for 15% OFF + Free Shipping with code “THEO” at http://Manscaped.com! Perplexity AI: Ask anything at https://pplx.ai/theo Watch on Spotify. Spotify subscribers get fewer ads on our episodes. ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn Bishop Gunn - Shine ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [email protected] Hit the Hotline: 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Mail stuff to: ATTN: TPW PO BOX 40137 Nashville TN 37204 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend X: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Trevyn https://www.instagram.com/trevyn.s/ Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Producer: Andrew https://www.instagram.com/bleachmediaofficial/ Producer: Halston https://www.instagram.com/halstonrays/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Today's guest is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement. A lot of that undercover. He infiltrated some of the most dangerous groups in America. Motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers, the cartel. He has a book out called Codename Pale Horse. How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. We go way down the rabbit hole in this one. We want to let people know that some of this, the stories in this one can be a little bit graphic. I had a nice chat with today's guest, Mr. Scott Payne.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  Scott Payne, the author of Codename Pale Horse. That's your book. And you've, you had some code names too. I saw that big country they called you.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm more like schmedium now, but yeah.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, you're coming down, huh? You de-escalate.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  I'm aging.

• 1:07Speaker 00

  Where, where are you, where are you from?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina.

• 1:11Speaker 00

  Oh, dude, that's a beautiful city.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, but born and raised there, lived in Charleston, played ball in Charleston, South Carolina. But I'm, I'm in East Tennessee now, man.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  Amen, man. Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude. To catch our listeners up, for those who don't know, you spent 28 years in law enforcement, right? And, and so that was in police work, SWAT, FBI undercover.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  And that was undercover with drug trafficking, cartels, white supremacist groups.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  What about your life before law enforcement made you think that that's a, a direction I want to go in?

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's not, I mean, it's one of those things you look back and you go, oh, I can see what was happening. I didn't really know what was happening at the time, but I just love connecting with people. I mean, I go into great detail in the book, but like in high school, when I was in high school in the eighties, you had a smoking area. You know, you go out there with your cigarettes, you know, and then you had like, I could go, I could hang in, in, in almost every crowd. That's all. It's, it's not saying I could be one of them necessarily. I could just be accepted. So potheads, I'm there. Jocks, I'm there. Musicians, I'm there. You look back and you see these things, but something about, I don't know if it started when I became a cop,

• 2:24Speaker 01

  but like some of my mentors, there's a guy named Gary Ward, uh, who was at the Greenville County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina. And he was the strongest man in the late eighties. So he came in after like Bill Casmire. He was, he was a marine, former marine, but at that time he was a marine and, and he, he won the heavyweight class and bench squat and deadlift. So now he's on narcotics and he's this jacked, big dude with, yeah, goodness gracious, that's him. Oh, my goodness.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Gary Ward, baby.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Dude, look at him. And he got bigger and then what?

• 2:56Speaker 00

  Look at the thighs on them. They were damn selling at auction.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I met him, he had a, I mean, he had a beard and everything and yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Dude, I bet he damn goes to the toilet and his yard just grows better.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Dude, you know, I used to ask him, I go, we'd be at the gym and I'm like, uh, I'm like, man, I never see you doing like this exercise or exercise like this, but man, your neck and your shoulders are, he says, no, when you pick that much weight up off the ground, something's going to grow. I was like, all right, man. Yeah, he used to bust my chops, man. We, he, he helped me perfect my squat. Squat was my strongest lift. So, you know.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  So you had a role model like that, kinda?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  And he had done undercover and biker stuff and I was becoming a biker. I mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I mean, like riding like American made, you know, Harley out there going to rallies and all that stuff. And he had done that and I don't know if that's what gave me the bug. All I know is that like, it doesn't matter during that timeframe, that eighties, nineties, it doesn't matter if it was the cheesiest undercover movie. I loved them all.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Loved them all, man.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Things like that have an effect on your life. The people you meet in the gym have an effect on your life.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Um, so you get into police work over there in Greenville, South Carolina. Do you remember a day that it just got real? You're like, oh, this is, now it really feels real, kinda?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Oh, man, there's, there's, if you're uniform patrol, I mean, it's, most people, I guess, if you're not a cop, you don't think this way or know it, but you just see so much trauma and stuff and you get desensitized, sorta. I mean, we, we compartmentalize it and this, we're, we're not very good at it. And that's why first responders, and I'm, and I'm including medic, fire and military. If we're not number one, we're very high for divorce, suicide, substance abuse and dying within five years after retiring. So it's a pressure cooker, but like going in a uniform, you can show up on all kinds of stuff, man. I've, I've shown up and nothing more. There's plenty of men and women in law enforcement that have done more and seen more, but you know,

• 4:54Speaker 01

  you go into a place and it's, you know, a trailer caught on fire and the person died in the position where they were trying to crawl out the, I mean, it's just all kinds of stuff. Somebody gets hit by a train, you're finding pieces and stuff.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Um, do you remember a day where you were like, I don't know if we're really trained for this, kinda?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Um, well, the thing that's jumping in my, in my head right now is because I'm still a tactical instructor. I'm an instructor with alert. Um, it's, it's spelt with two Rs, A L E R R T. But the, but the FBI and alert married in 2013 and it's the national standard for training law enforcement, how to respond to active shooter events. So, uh, I was just, I was, we were just putting on a class last week in East Tennessee.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  So that's a national organization, alert?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're doing all kinds of stuff, stopping the killing, stopping the dying. And then you got to do casualty evac. But that, what I was saying, if you were asking me about something like Greenville County, um, I had a good friend of mine die in the line of duty. And, and this is what we're trying to do. A lot of times we're training, we're just saying, man, just slow down just a little bit, you know? I get it, you know, young gunning, I'm still got plenty of testosterone in me. You want to just bust in there and, and run into rooms and there's a safer way to do it. Um, but what happened to my friend is we weren't really getting the training at that time. But, uh, he was the city. Uh, I was, I was county, but he was city, but his, the edge bumped up to each other, right? So he sees somebody's got a lot of warrants on them, jumps out, chases them on foot, chases them into a building.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Somebody clocks him in the head with a board and now you got tunnel vision. Now he's like, all he's seeing is this, even though he got hit in the head with a board, he calls it out, but he sees the guy running and, and Russ was in shape, Russell Sora. He was in shape, man. He took off after him and we just hadn't had the training to slow down enough to.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  Stop and think.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  To, to pan and, and use, use distance and angles. And he ran right, because it was a hard corner and he ran right past the bad guy and the guy shot him in the back. And when he went down, he walked up and shot him three times directly in the back of the head and they rolled him over and shot him in the mouth and in the eye in broad daylight. So, uh, but if we would have had that training and you got to get the reps, you got it. And it's sad to say, but most places are, they don't have the budget anyway. But at least in my experience, when they're having budget problems, the first thing that gets cut is training.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  And then something bad happens and then you look and you go, how did that happen? And then you look and people that are out there in the industry that have the skill sets, they're like, well, this is a lack of training. They didn't know what to do, you know?

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, the rep, I mean, you, you say the reps, man, the muscle memory, just the idea, you know, it's like, because otherwise I'm sure you're running on adrenaline and I don't know how much, I don't know chemically what is in adrenaline, if there's a part of it, like of the chemical.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  There's gonna be some endorphins. I mean, it's gonna be like, yeah, it's gonna probably be like an epinephrine or something, right?

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Right, there's not something in there that's like, hey.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Relax. Yeah, it's not that one. Yeah, it's the opposite of relax.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  So we, we may need some new adrenaline.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, so when we're, when we're doing those trainings, we call it a stress inoculation. So out there on the range, get you and, and, or maybe when we're doing force on force with the marking cartridges, you're in a mask, you're in a helmet, enclosed neck protector. And you'll hear people a lot of times say, man, I couldn't hear anything. When we're doing the test, say, hey, this is how you put the mask on, put it on, and you stand up there and you go, hey, can you hear the sound of my voice? And everybody raises their hand. It's not, it's not the helmet, it's your stress.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  So you do that and we, we often refer to it as you bleed on the range so you don't die in the street, but it takes the reps. There's so many videos I can show you, military and law enforcement, where the officer has no idea how many rounds they've shot. They have no idea that they did it in a magazine exchange. They had no idea that they did it behind cover, but they did it because they trained so it became, until it became instinctive or like you said, muscle memory.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, when things get intense, man, yeah, it's hard to sit back and like, and, and, and remember what occurred.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Much less, yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're having an adrenaline dump, um, and it could be any traumatic experience. It could be your first car wreck. I remember my first car wreck, everything that goes to slow motion.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  You're just like, whoa, and everything's a time dilation. So your eyes click, you're just getting screenshots because it's not a smooth transition. Your auditory exclusion, you sound like, you feel like you're underwater. Everything's like, you just hear whoa, whoa, whoa. And it's just, everything's like, you can feel your heart beating through your whole body. I will say though, uh, studies have shown that the better physical shape you're in, the quicker you'll recover from those adrenaline dumps.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  So adrenaline dump is a, it's a real thing that you, you guys.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I call it, but I mean, there's probably another term for it, but.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  No, this is, let me see right here. It says, "An adrenaline dump is a sudden large release of the hormone adrenaline, epinephrine, from your adrenal glands that rapidly flips your body into fight or flight mode, followed by a downshift once that surge clears and related stress hormones settle. Um, breathing rate increases and airways relax to pull in more oxygen quickly. Blood flow is redirected away from digestion toward muscles, heart, lungs and brain, so you can move and react faster." And that's on perplexity. Wow, that's, yeah, I just didn't know that.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And you can come in and out of it, you know? You can be like in a situation, have the adrenaline dump and then you start, okay, things are calming down. Now you're coming back to normal and then something else happens and you're like, oh, dad gummit. And you're going right back down to another adrenaline dump.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  So, and, and in your work, you've probably kind of ridden those of like a lot over the years, almost like waves, kinda?

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Like you're surfing a little bit.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't like that kind of surfing.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Gosh, man, I never thought about like that that's something, I mean, you always hear the term, oh, you have an adrenaline dump, but I've never really kind of looked at it as to see exactly what's kind of occurring in that in those moments. So you you end up moving, I'm assuming from police work to SWAT? Is that kind of how it went? Because I remember I heard you talk one time about those jump out boys, right?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  And I remember reading about jump out boys, like even down in Louisiana and stuff.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  It was like these sort of like it was kind of this new thing that was happening. This is what we gathered is just regular.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Back in the 5-0 days when everybody was 5-0.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Oh, everybody was 5-0. Dude, anybody.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yelling it on the corner, 5-0. I'm like, I'm not even in a Mustang.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Bro, dude, you see a white Dodge Neon and people yell 5-0. Or even you just see a white guy that hadn't been out in a while.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  I know, yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  And people would yell 5-0.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Oh, man, you're trying to earn some money on the corner by being a lookout.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Those were the days, bro.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  5-0. 5-0.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  And everybody would run. It didn't even matter, dude.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, but the jump out boys, it was it was kind of an unmarked car group.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  That was kind of taking on drug trafficking. That's what that's how we always heard about it like.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  So it's not SWAT. At the sheriff's office, I didn't get on SWAT. I got on SWAT in the FBI.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  But I did make vice narcotics investigator, and that's your jump out boys. It's usually your narcotics unit.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  It is.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  We're rolling up. I mean, being young and dumb, you know, I'd be out late at night, single, partying. I'd come in and thankfully Gary didn't like beat me up or nothing, but I remember we've had to drive like 40 minutes to where we're going to do a jump out. I said, hey, I'm just going to nod off a little bit. About five minutes out, if you'll just wake me up, let me know. I wake up and I'd go, all right, all right, because you're young. I mean, you're, you know, nothing's not popping when you stand up, you know, and you just go like, all right, ma'am, we're rolling up and van door opens, you start running from a dead sleep. Chasing, yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  And what so I guess I'm guessing they didn't breathalyze y'all before your shift.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  I wasn't drunk. I was just tired.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Oh, damn.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  The night before I might have been a little snoggered, but yeah, you know, I'm just, I had the hair of the dog.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  Amen. What were some of those calls like?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  A lot of those, so the jump out stuff, you're going to be going to somewhere that's got a lot of reporting or incidents recorded of high drug trafficking. So you're going to be pulling up and it may be, it may be quick buys. You may run and undercover in to make a buy and then they either they identify them or you've got it on camera and they're coming. So you go through and it's like, all right, the dude's wearing a yellow coat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they just pull in right after that and jump out and grab them because they just sold up if you want to do it that quick. Other times it might be for me, once I was in the FBI, it was really source development. I'd go out there with the state and locals and, you know,

• 13:06Speaker 01

  observe.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Just get involved.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you hop in, you hop in and you go, sometimes you can get some good information.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  So as you're coming up through the police department, what makes you like, is the police department, is the activity there kind of not enough? Or is there like an, like, are you in a search for more? Like, what makes you want to kind of evolve your career to try other genres of law enforcement?

• 13:29Speaker 01

  There's a couple of things that happen. Number one, the pay.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  You're at the sheriff's office for five years. You don't get any raises. County council gives themselves raises. Happens all over the United States. Not disagreeing with South Carolina.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  What were y'all getting made? What were y'all getting?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I don't know. I was a, that would have been 93 to 98, I was a cop. So I don't know, 50, 60 grand, I don't, who knows, you know, but you know, as a cop, you're also moonlighting. You're doing all kinds of side jobs, you know, you get, oh, yeah, you get off of work and then you go to Frankie's Fun Park or some golf thing and you sit there or you go to the Dollar General and you sit, you know, for shoplifting and stuff like that and you get extra money.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  So working like security gigs, side gigs?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, referee and all kinds of stuff.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  You forget that, I forget that. The police officers do all kinds of stuff. They would be umpires for our games a lot of time. They'd be refereeing basketball. I forgot about all that.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Or, yeah, or that's your side. Maybe you're, if you're in uniform, you might see the cop at the high school game. That's a side job.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  You know, you're getting paid for that. But I looked at the pay because after five years, it was kind of like, man, I'm not making anything, even though I was a two striper at that point. But it's like, you look, they would raise the, it was weird because they would raise the, the hiring rate, the, the pay for the hiring. So, uh, starting rate. But at some point, I probably could have literally quit, walked out the door and came back in with a four year degree and make more than what I'm making, which doesn't make any sense.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  And you also look at it and you're like, I'm never, I'm never going to max out my retirement. Look, look at how much we're making, how little we get. I'm never going to hit peak unless I'm live to be 100 and they let me work as a 100 year old cop, you know, in a wheelchair, you know, but I looked at that, but I was really starting to get a lot more exposure as far as I was learning more about the federal agencies because we would go out and help them with arrests and stuff. And I really didn't know, I thought the FBI just worked to bank robbers because that's the only time I ever saw them. And I had a sergeant, he said, and my nickname at that time was Kingpin. And he said, Kingpin, if I was you and I was a single man and I had a four year degree, he said, man, I would put in for the FBI and I'd list New York as my first office. And I thought.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  You said, I'd list New York as my first office?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd put New York as, I want, I want to go to New York and, and, and, uh, in that, you know, uh.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  New York, yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  And I told him, I was like, are you, what are you smoking? I'm like, there's no way I'd go to New York. What are you talking about? I started applying because I thought, I said, oh, they were, what do they do? And he goes, he says, Scott, they do everything. And I'd heard that it was harder to get hired with them. And I took it as a challenge. I filled out that one first and I never filled out another one. Took about probably a year to get through the whole process. But the polygraphs and then the physical fitness and all the backgrounds and then there's tests you have to take and then there's another interview test and, and then you get to the academy. You get your letter and I arrived, I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 9/27 to 98. And 9/28 is your first day.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Dang.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  Before we go into your first day, when it comes to the FBI, what were some of the like the criteria that they were looking for? Were there unique tests and stuff that they had you do along the way that, or even experiences that in hindsight may have been used to weed people out that you're able to notice now?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, there's all, I mean, the, like the phase one test.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Because you tickle me, I'll tell you what's going on.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  That's, I mean, I was very truthful on the polygraph I did, but I sat in the box for like three and a half hours. I'm like, I don't know, let me tell you, I'm not lying, you know?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  But that phase one test, it has like, there's like questions they ask you, you know, would you be more likely to? And they're giving you scenarios and stuff, but there was this math part and, and I had to go back and I had good grades in college and stuff, but I don't remember any of that. I didn't remember any of the geometry and all the other stuff, algebra. I was like, I don't remember this.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, nobody does it.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  So I go, unless your job has you doing it for something, right?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Nope. If you walked up to 95% of people that graduated those classes right now, I bet they couldn't tell you shit.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  So I.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  They couldn't tell you shit.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And, and.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  Because nobody's using it. Because what it's sometimes it's like there's a missing dog or an neighbor or something. If somebody shows up with geometry to find a damn missing dog, I'm pointing at them, brother. They got that pup.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  I look at it like this. It helps you find ways to solve problems. Is the way I kind of look at it.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  That's a good attitude.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that's, you know, but my, uh, so the middle section was math.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Now, they do look for certain backgrounds. When I was coming in, if you were an accountant, CPA, that's good, attorney, with you pass the bar, that's good, former military, intel, foreign language speaking and diverse. And I came in under diverse. So four year degree, three years of experience, but I was a former cop. So that helps if they're looking for that.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  So they're bringing all types into the FBI?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Completely diverse. Yeah. I mean, you got former doctors, former biochemists.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  Really?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's insane.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  So it's not just police officers, huh?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  No, no, not especially not in the FBI.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  I never thought of that. I always just feel like it's police and then it's, uh, and they.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Military, yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, or military and they evolve into working with the FBI.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  One of my best friends that went through the academy with me, he was a former Walmart manager and he smoked the fitness test and he was a great agent. So I mean, it's like, yeah, all kinds of backgrounds. Actually, I think that's one of the strongest points of the FBI is their diversity. But sometimes we place people in the wrong places, you know?

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, once they're in, you mean?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Oh, I could see that.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Like you got knuckle dragger like me and you want to stick me on some highfalutin, I don't know, healthcare fraud squad?

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  It's not me.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Now, but if you want to put somebody into the healthcare fraud squad, that's for me with rolling back prices.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, an accountant or a former medical person, right?

• 19:16Speaker 00

  Or a former Walmart employee, dude.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  And that's the guy we need. So.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  I'm more of the greeter.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  I'm that guy.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, they got him out here for a reason, you know? Yeah. And sorry, I interrupted you, man. So, so, uh, so you're going through the phase one tests, right?

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's questions, there's, there's, there was basically three parts, but the middle part was all that algebra and geometry and all this stuff. And I mean, I studied, I studied and studied, but as I walk in, I see, I've already met some people and they're full blown CPA accountants who've been doing this. When we walked out of that thing, I saw them going, I don't even know what that was. I think I failed. And I'm like, well, if you failed, I know I failed, man. Like this, you're supposed, this is your world, man. But I just, I just started just circling stuff when I was running out of time, so.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  The, the law of averages was on my side that day.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  And you've, and you passed.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Pixie. I just went.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right, yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, yeah, I guess I did. I don't know. I don't know if it was something to break you, like to throw you off mentally, just to stress you out because then the third part was back into questions again. So, so like if you've ever taken the MMP two for a job, it's MMP two something. It's like 547 questions. And a lot of places have it, and even our psychological unit has it. And I think you have to take it like once every two years or four years. But I mean, it's, it's like so many different ways to ask the same question. But if you are hiding something under the surface, I don't know, maybe when you get stressed somewhere in there psychologically, it's going to slip out on the back end.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Oh, that would make sense. Cause sometimes a simple word, one word, changing something.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Just a little change.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  A little bit of thing, an angle, how, why?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  So you do find your mother sexy and you do like harming small animals and you are fascinated with fire. Cause at the beginning of the test, you weren't, you know?

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And then they walk you out.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I have some hobbies, you know?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  But, uh, but no, I, I love what you're saying, man. The turn of phrase, a little bitty bit can lead to something so different. And also sometimes just waiting, when somebody thinks you're going to talk, just waiting.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  And then their energy sometimes is.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Starts eating them up.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. You gotta fill the space. I gotta say something. Cause what does their silence mean? Does their silence mean something?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  You know?

• 21:32Speaker 01

  They know.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  And then you start to interpret in your head, what does their silence mean? And that's kind of a crazy.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't completely truthful.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  But, uh.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  And maybe I wasn't completely clothed, you know? Um, yeah, man. Wow. Yeah. This is interesting stuff. Thanks for your time today, man.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Okay. So you get through, you get through the test and you pass that?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  And then you were in, when do people go to Quantico? Is that then?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Pretty much, I don't know.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Cause that's what you hear about in all the movies and everything.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you, it depends on, uh, I know you have to pass phase two.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  But I can't remember when the polygraph falls in and when the physical fitness test. But basically all that, you're going to go to phase one, you're going to polygraph background, huge background, thorough, thorough background. Cause you could, you're going to be going into a job where you could get top secret clearance. So yeah, it's, it's like they know everything. Every credit card you got, any, any debt you've got.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Did you have to sit and tell some secrets and stuff about yourself that you didn't want to tell or how?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  No, because I'm transparent. That's just me. I mean, I'll just tell them. I'm not, I'm not going to hold it back. I'm not going to lie. And really in the FBI, I don't know right now, cause I didn't work under cash, but, um, I retired under Ray and I came in under Louis Free. But if you lie under inquiry, then that's recorded, you're kind of dead to us because you can't go testify anymore. And you can't go build a case because you're going to have to release that you were caught lying. And then the defense is going to eat you apart. So.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  So the truth has to, the truth is the only way to get there.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Right. So the, I've seen some people do some, or have read about in, in quarterly reports, some things that employees have done, whether they're, uh, whether they're gun toters or whether they're professional staff. But in mitigation, if they didn't lie, I mean, they're going to try to get you help and stuff. But it, but then you read the next thing and it's like, oh, somebody was called to the table on time and attendance fraud, like they were fudging the numbers. Under inquiry, they lied, dismissed, fired. And you're like, well, if I've learned anything, don't lie.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Don't lie.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Don't lie.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Wow. And it's crazy that you would then end up in a world where you're going undercover where it's like, okay, now.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Now I'm like, yeah. Except for now. Now I'm going back to Scott. Yeah.

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• 25:12Speaker 00

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• 25:56Speaker 00

  see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com/theo. That's better H E L P dot com slash T H E O. Um, tell me a little bit about the training for FBI, Scott.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  So it's pretty standard, uh, test. It's like the Cooper Institute standard, but, but basically when I came in, you had to be able to pass a two mile run in a certain amount of time. You had to be able to do, uh, at a sprint course, they called the shuttle run. You start on your back, you sprint like 25 yards, turn on a cone, back down, back down, that kind of stuff. And then pushups, situps, pullups. Um, but that's just the pass or fail stuff. And then you get in and you basically, I mean, Quantico, I look at it like the, remember that old eighties movie, the biodome with Paulie Shore and everybody? That's what I look at it like. Cause I have been in that building for four days and, and realized I have not gotten fresh air. I've not stepped outside this building. Yeah. Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  So you can go from, yes, it's, so you can go from, that's Jefferson, right there at the front. That's where I stayed. You can go in and from Jefferson, you go down to the cafeteria. You get your breakfast and then you go to class. You go to lunch, you go back, you can go to your room, go to the gym, go to the boardroom at night, hit the bar, go back, and you never step foot outside.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  And that's our track at the back. It looks different now. Or you know what? No, they did put a building in the middle of it now. Uh, there used to be a nice ropes course and all kinds of stuff, but, um, a lot of running, a lot more running than I ever did. I was, I was a lineman, so.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  So once you were there, that became a big part of it was the physical conditioning?

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're in class all day. You're learning all kinds of stuff. I mean, you're getting legal, you're doing this. And then we're in Hogan's Alley, learning tactics, um, firearms range, learning how to be a better shooter. Um.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  What was one of the more unique classes kind of that you took that kind of stood out?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  I always loved anything forensics. Like even though we all know how the, uh, OJ Simpson trial turned out and everything, but if you have a forensics person come in and break down exactly what was found at that, it, it just got screwed up how it was collected. And then the defense did what they were supposed to do. They created doubt in the jury's mind. But you could, some stuff like that, if a forensics person comes in, they break that down on like, this is what we found here. And it's just getting better and better with, uh, like, I forget what it's called. But now they can take your D, there's something that's matching up your DNA. Let's just say they're clearing like a 30-year-old case.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Because the DNA is there, uh, from that original collection before we even knew we were going to be able to test this kind of stuff. And then they, now they're going back and they can actually pull things. And you know how you kind of like do that, uh, like almost like a 23 and me or that genealogy thing? They're doing that. And they can narrow it down to like, almost that's it.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  Testing DNA on cold cases is CODIS. We know that.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Genetic genealogy.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Oh, genetic genealogy. There you go. If CODIS has no match, labs upload the profile to public databases like GEDmatch. Um, which I'll tell you this, out the gate, you do GEDmatch, you're going to find some of our family.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I got that family too. I'm first, first generation law enforcement, first generation for your degree.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Bro, a lot of empty diploma frames in our area.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  My dad dropped down to 10th grade.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Did he?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  And he said he stopped paying attention in the eighth.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Oh, 10's good. Um, yeah. Oh yeah. GED was, that was a popular, uh, pastime in our area. Um.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  So they just cleared one. I was, I was putting on training somewhere and somebody was telling me how they just cleared this case.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Um, and it was, it's, they did that. And they were able to use that family genealogy to narrow it down to, oh my goodness, this was one of the suspects that they interviewed. And oh, this is one.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Wow. So yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  So 30 years later, somebody's getting cuffs put on them.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Dang. Let's do it.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  On your life.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  I love that, dude.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  I feel like you could feel the timeline of existence breathe a little deeper when justice is served.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Got you.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  I like that. I like a little bit of justice. Wow. So, and so how long is the whole overall training for the, for?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  FBI, FBI, it's somewhere around five months. Sometimes it adds another month and, but it's somewhere around five months.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  And what percentage of people do they eliminate sort of along the way? Or is that?

• 30:01Speaker 01

  You know, I, well, it depends. It, it's a case by case basis. There was a time where I would go back and, and I would, because I was a firearms instructor, tactical instructor, uh, undercover guy and all that stuff. But I would be back at Quantico with my peers, uh, who were in those units. And you'd look at the class and you'd be like, look at the last class and you see like half of them failed. I'm like, what, what is going on? It kind of ebbs and flows. I don't, I don't think half failure is normal, but I'm not there every day. So I don't know.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Got it. And when did your undercover work start? Did that start, uh, from the FBI?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  No, it started at the sheriff's office. So once I made vice of narcotics investigator, um, you have an opportunity to go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These are classes that they were put on in, in Columbia, South Carolina at the, uh, Criminal Justice Academy. And once you get certified in that, then they'd let you go work undercover. But I mean, just, just picture me, now number one, I don't want to mess up. Number two, you're around, you're around a bunch of older guys and gals who are seasoned in, in street level buys and all this stuff. And I'm just trying to, you're going to have to show up. You got, you know, it's not up to them to like me. It's up to me to get them to like me, right?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Got it. Yeah. You gotta ingratiate yourself for sure.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's a tough crowd. Uh, usually is military, law enforcement. We're pretty, we're pretty tough crowds. So imagine me, number one, not wanting to screw up. Number two, being scared to death. And number three, thinking about them watching it and not wanting to screw up in front of them too. So my Gary Ward and some of those people, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah. I mean, the first crack rock I bought, I was probably 275 pounds with low body fat, you know, just jacked. And I'm like, I don't look like I smoked crack. Unless I just started, I just started back, you know? I buy a crack rock and drive around for 15 minutes and come back and buy another one. I'm not the guy smoking it, you know?

• 31:52Speaker 00

  And so, so something like that, that's a real instance you had to come back and buy another one? And would you have to seem cracked out when you came back around?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Well, what I was told, cause I never smoked crack, was that it would wear off in 15 minutes. That's why they didn't care if you came back and bought again, so yeah. But they were probably giving me little slivers of soap or something, who knows? But once I did it, the bug got me.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Like the, like the undercover bug, I don't know what it was. It's not lying, it's not like, you know, I, I used to, like, is the infiltration? Yeah, I mean, getting to know people. But during the book process, I can't remember what I used to term it as, but now I just realized, I go, holy crap. I just love connecting with people.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I don't care, even if you, even if I get called out at three in the morning, cause I was considered a good interviewer. So, you know, to either get information, a confession, or, you know, flip them and maybe they work with us. And I would go and I didn't mind getting called out like that. And, and I love it, the crazier, the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb, I love it all.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Did you guys have groups that would like, like, say you go on, like, you're, get put on an assignment? Is that what it's called basically?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  For undercover?

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  Um, and they could be very small or they could be bigger ones, deeper, deeper or shallow ones.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  Do they, do you go to like wardrobe and stuff like that? Like, do they have all of that? Like, who creates your backstory? How does all that happen?

• 33:09Speaker 01

  I say ultimately, ultimately it's on you. Um, and what I teach you, what I, what I, I know, right? You know, you go come out, I, I believe, I did used to call the unit and I'd go, when are you gonna call me for? Cause I was big country, even though I'm not big anymore, but they, they'd be like, I'd call headquarters and I'd go, when are you gonna let me do one of those Wall Street jobs? You know, one of these big old tycoon jobs? And they're like, no. And I'm like, I can say buy, sell, you know, put a big hat on and have that boss hog long horn on the front of my car, rolling in the, and they're like, no, and I go, fine. Cause it's my skill set. My skill set leads me to backwoods with meth heads and white supremacists and whatever else, you know?

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, dude, those are some of my neighbors probably. Um, what, what were some of those early spots that you got put into?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Um, well, early on at the sheriff's office, it was the, you know, you gotta go buy a crack rock, which was terrifying to me. And then it might be, yeah, cause I never bought crack. I'm pulling down there, man, I barely cracked the window, you know? I was just like, they go, what you want? Cause they come around the car, you only go, what you want? I'm like, I want a 20, you know?

• 34:13Speaker 01

  He's like, roll down the window, you idiot, you know? I'm like, I'm sliding money through the.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  You're like, let me Venmo you.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  They didn't have no Venmo back then, that'd been good though. What's your cash app, bro? You know? I'll send it to you right now.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  Oh damn, man.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  That's pretty good. And then type in, what's it for? Drugs.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Crack. Uh, yeah, but that, that was the odd stuff there, but I started, I started cutting my teeth. But when I got in the FBI, um, my first long term, I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff, which a cameo is basically what it sounds like, like on a TV show. You're there just to help somebody else, or it's a quick, it's not even a full blown undercover operation. It's just gonna be one meet.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Like, give me an example of that.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Like a, like a buy bust, or we're gonna deliver, uh, LA takes off a huge load of dope. It's supposed to be coming to New York. So LA gets on the phone with FBI in New York, we're like, okay, what does it look like? We want measurements, all this. We would go build the exact same shipment and then we would deliver it to where it was supposed to go, so we can get the bad guys on that end.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  No.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And that's just a one time, I mean, I'm in a truck with NYPD detective and we're just dirtied up and going to deliver.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  So in that way, were you able to bust both ends of the, of the?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  What is the reason that they would do it like that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meet?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Because sometimes you don't know if it's getting delivered to a fictitious address, or where's it gonna go? But we were delivering it and, and it depends on the assistant United States attorney, cause everybody's a little different. So maybe this one says, this is all I need to charge them. Somebody might be a little bit more thorough, they go, no, I, I wanna actually know that they opened the box. Well, how can we do that? Well, let's build something so we, when we walk away, it's not enough that they take possession. We want to walk away and know that they popped the box before we hit it.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  And how would you guys know that? Would you guys put cameras in the box?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Or something, or some tech guy's gonna do something. I mean, there's so much technology now, I mean, I don't know what they can do.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  But of course, most people watch TV and think we can do stuff we can anyway.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, is that true?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, it's getting better. I saw, I've seen some things since I retired, I'm not gonna say what they are, cause it's tradecraft, but it really made me wanna go back undercover just to use it for a recording device. I was like, I cannot believe, I'm like, you know?

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Well, they just had those SUVs that they bought, I think they had Israeli technology in them. I don't know if you saw that, there was these SUVs that allegedly can drive by an area and, and read your phone, basically. Can you bring that up, Trevon?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Uh, it's probably like if you're on Bluetooth or Wi-Fi and it's, it's pulling stuff off of your phones.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Israel's palantir rival is selling $1 million spy vans to US cops. Is this a recent story? Cause this was like three days ago. Oh yeah, this is good, there we go. Let me see. Cognite, which sells technology to snoop on phone locations largely in Israel and Europe, is making inroads in America by tricking out trucks with spy tech. Texas state police's purchase of four brand new Chevy Tahos this March was unusual, not just because of the staggering $4.5 million price tag, but because the vehicles were kitted out with technology that could monitor the locations of nearby cell phones. Made by Israeli surveillance company Cognite, the tech simulates a mobile phone tower, which forces nearby phones to connect to it.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  That enables cops to keep tabs on any phones in the vicinity, whether they're owned by a suspect in a case or not. Huh.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Hmm, you're gonna have some issues there. Uh, because I, I'm reading, I'm listening to what you're reading, but I'm telling you, you've got the fourth amendment protection. So if I'm gonna be able to track you, at a minimum, I'm probably gonna have to get a court order. Uh, a lot of places, a lot of times now, you have to get a full blown search warrant.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  Do you think though, that maybe they're buying these in advance and they know that the laws are gonna change?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  That could be, but I can tell you right now, if somebody's coming by and pulling your stuff, um, and they're actually tracking you, I mean, like you can, like, say if you've got a scanner and you're riding through an apartment complex back in the day, you could pick up different cell phones and stuff, is that, I mean, is that a title three wiretap? I mean, if you're using it for evidence, it is, but for us, like, that's a huge invasion of privacy. For me, anybody who listens to your phone. A PIN, register, trap and trace, that's just gonna let me track your phone and maybe see where you are off of towers. I'll get to see phone numbers coming in and calling in and calling out and texting and texting out, but I can't read.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Well, I can't read the content.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  If you start getting into that kinda stuff, uh, like if somebody puts a camera in your house, that's a, that's a, that's a title three. And it's, and I, it's not easy to get. It's not TV, it's not like, hey, I need to be on this phone in five minutes.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  It's different.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  We can now, you can, you can track a phone in an emergency, uh, or there are some, it's, maybe it's harder, especially if you got a burner phone, but, um, there are things like if somebody's missing, or it's a threat to life, or maybe a cop goes down and we're trying, or somebody's down.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Hammer alert, something like that.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  We're trying to do that, that's, that's, we might be able to expedite it a little bit, but you're still gonna get some type of order.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Got it. And now sometimes it seems like, uh, that police or FBI, they may use these tactics for the moment, knowing that they're not, just to, to behoove them to advance in whatever that moment is, to have strategy, knowing that it may not hold up in court later.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Well, I wouldn't do that. Uh, really, I, for me, oh.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  But does it make sense what I'm saying?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  I know, it does, it does, but we're, the way, the way I've always done it.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  Like, do it now, ask, ask permission later, like that's, you know what I'm saying?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  For forgiveness.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, ask for forgiveness.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  It seems like I could see that being a part of maybe this strategy, I don't know.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Well, that would be an on the spot kinda thing, but generally, or for, let's just say for the most part, I would not, I'm retired, I'm not bonded right now. Um, but I wouldn't build a bad case or do something like that, cause that's a violation. But if there was a gray area, if, if, this is just me personally speaking. I'm not saying it's covered, it's not covered by policy. But there have been horrific cases where girl, young girl goes missing. Uh, I'm kicking myself for not remembering her name right now, but she goes missing in Florida and everybody's looking for her. So you go out and you start canvassing the neighborhood.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Well, you might look and you can see, hey man, we've got like registered sex offenders right here where she went missing. But that's the first doors I'm knocking on.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Sorry if that offends you, but you're a registered sex offender.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  And.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  It's your trade.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and they're, and, and they, uh, after the fact, they found her, she was dead, she was buried alive with her, with her stuffed animal. But in the original canvas, they went and talked to the guy at the trailer that was holding her, but they never got in.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  So me, uh, that I would, I would violate. I'm getting in there.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  If you feel it.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm getting, then, oh, you don't have a problem? You're not holding anything, you mind if I walk in here and look?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  And if you say no, well, okay, well, we'll find a way to get in here.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  But I'm not leaving.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Have you had instances like that where you had to trust your instincts?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, yeah, as, as a case agent. Well, not even as an undercover, but as an undercover, you're in a situation and you're, you're basically playing chess. You're trying to be five steps ahead of them and they're thinking, you're also like tennis. Like I'm serving it to you and I have no idea which way you're hitting it back, but I'm over here going, you know? I'm that goalie, I don't know what you're throwing, but I'm, I'm trying to be ready. Um, as a case agent out there trying to, um, call a shot, call, call shots right there on the spot, you know? Um, I had a case, uh, in, in McAllen, Texas, where I was at for six and a half years. And what it was, is that the. The, they were undocumented aliens being smuggled in.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  We get the call because the undocumented family is already in Virginia. They had paid for two sisters and a daughter to come through. And what happened is the smuggling organization got them across the river. So you get them across the river, at least in Rio Grande Valley, you get them across the river, and then they're usually at a staging location, a house or something. Because now they've got to get picked up by a coyote, a walker, and they're going to be handed off. And now they're going to be walked through the brush around the checkpoints to where they'll be picked up and then carried to wherever. Um, where this one happened was, one of the sisters was physically and mentally challenged, and they left her in the brush to dry, to die. They left her in the brush to die. And Border Patrol found her. She was 16, but they couldn't figure out a lot.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  So they called Child Protective Services. They came over and were able to figure out, you've got family. They actually figured out the, the other family was in Virginia, and they were now being extorted. They got them across the river, got them into a house. And now they're calling, saying, hey, we already dumped one of your sisters. Your five-year-old daughter's sick, and we're not getting her anything to make her better unless you pay us more money. So they're extorting them even though they paid. And in my mind, I think that's truly a victim. Even though undocumented alien is, is, it's an illegal charge, but I'm not working undocumented alien. I'm working kidnapping, extortion.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, especially if, I mean, I think there's a moral code inside of a lot of us.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:25Speaker 00

  Where you have to decide what's going on.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  You know, and, and sometimes you can't even decide. It's just a built-in thing. You're like, this is how I'm going to operate in this space, right? It's a very human thing.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in that case particularly, we're probably running for three, four days nonstop because we're trying to find this phone that they're calling on. That the, the bad guys are using to call the family. I've already hit FBI up in Virginia and said, hey, can you go over and give them recording devices, all that, all the stuff they need? And, uh, it was a Honduran family. And about that third day, we're out. And all we know is that the phone, like I said, this location stuff, it's not, I'm not giving away.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Right, you're not getting text messages, you're just getting some location tags or something?

• 44:06Speaker 01

  But it's not, it's not like, it's always, it's not always pinpoint. You know, it's not like, hey, that's it, moving right there 10 feet away. That's not, at least when I was working it then. And we know pretty much that the phone is somewhere in the store. And they're like, hey, it's moving. And then at the same time, four different people come out. And they're all walking into cars. And we've been up for three days straight. And we're all, most of us are parents, which doesn't matter if you're a parent or not. You're still going to be like, but you're, you're getting personally involved in this case because it's a five-year-old girl. And, uh, I had to make the call. And like, what are you, because I was leading it. And they're like, which one? And I'm like, look, I'm going, oh, son of a, I'm going, okay, here we are, here we are, here we are.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like the Masked Singer or whatever.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, come on, Lord. And I'm like, hit me. And then I'm like, let's go with that one. And we follow it away and get to a point to where that one stops. And, uh, then we were able to say, yep, the phone moved and it's somewhere close to there. So then we go in and hit the house. But the house didn't have the undocumented people in it. It had, it had the guy, had the ledgers, had all the names. Of course, the phone was in there. They were trying to flood, they were trying to flush stuff and everything. We get in there and, uh, cut the phones on. And I call the bad guy phone and it rings. And I go, it's you. So we do a long interrogation. And luckily, the guy broke and took us to the stash house. And we, and we recovered the girl and her sister. Yeah.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And of course, we're all crying, like all the, all the grown men. The, my friend, who's a female Border Patrol agent, she's like, she's like, all of us are like, you know, because we put the young girl on the phone with her Honduran mother. And she's like, mommy, and you know, and she still had her schoolgirl outfit on. And man, they want to dry, they want to dry.

• 45:47Speaker 00

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• 48:28Speaker 01

  Oh, it can, yeah, that one did. Because I, I mean, you know, it's like, but, but again, what do you? Yeah, but think about it. Say you're, I'm like, I've, I've interviewed, not this, not, not that case, but you're interviewing somebody that's, that's nicknamed El Ucha. Well, it's because the cartel's already cut two of his fingers off. They, they've been tortured, they've been all that, me yelling at them? How, how am I going to work this to where I can get something?

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Out of you? I mean, I can't, I can't chop your fingers off.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  We have a constitution.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  That would be frowned upon.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you got to, you hope to play by the rules.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  Did you see some pretty severe stuff that came across the border? Like how, how intense is some of those scenarios and stuff down there? Like you hear so much about the cartels and like the level of violence. That's like, um, almost something that we can't even maybe fathom sometimes.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  A lot of people don't. Um, they value life a little differently. I'm not saying Hispanics, because I'm, somebody's going to say, oh, you're saying all Hispanic? No, I'm not. I love, I mean, I got tons of Latino friends and, uh, but the cartel, at the time I was down there, OZ El Cardenas was running it. Um, which, once Department of Justice took him off, it actually created a vacuum. Because now everybody's like, well, who's going to run the Gulf Cartel? And then you got the enforcers, the Cetas that are saying, you know what, we're the ones that kidnapped everybody and tortured them. We're going to run it. And then you got maybe the government saying they're going to do it. And then Senyo Loa cartel comes in and says, we're taking over. And then you just end up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Really?

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, you would.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Is that a real thing, heads and bags and vans?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you, like, it was getting bad enough to where, this was shortly after I left, but it was getting bad enough to where, because everybody's vying for the territory. If you're in a territory and you have a decent vehicle, like, it looks like you've got some kind of money because there's really not a lot of middle class. You're either low or high. And you're going through the wrong territory, neighborhood, whatever. And, and maybe it's the Cetas going, well, you're not one of us. Are you one of the Senyo Loa cartel? And they pull it over and, I mean, yeah. And there's, there's been innocent bystanders lost, you know, because they didn't know any better and, you know.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Man, I almost invested in a damn zoo down there in Sinaloa.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  Buddy of mine, we almost bought into a zoo down there.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I've never been to Sinaloa, so there's probably like a lot of places that are outside the United States. There's gonna be, well, it's just like in the United States. There's gonna be, there's gonna be good and bad, yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, my friend Andrew just went fishing down there and he said he had one of the best experiences of his whole life, some of the greatest fishing he's ever done.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  What, what's, what smuggling did you see? Did you see any human trafficking? We hear about, we hear about that term so much. What, what, what did you see?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  So, when I got there, I was working drugs, obviously you're on the border, but you got every federal agency there. Legacy ICE, DEA, ATF, US, FBI.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  DTF if there's some hotties, huh?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw all kinds of stuff. When I got down there, I was working drugs at first. Um, I mean, it could be 50 kilos of cocaine in a tire.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Now, you see that much?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  What's the most you ever saw, man?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Uh, I personally, probably getting to that hundred kilo mark.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  How much is that? Show me with your hands.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Well, a kilo is 2.2 pounds, so 100 of those.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Wow, boy. I saw two eight balls once.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Well, I know, way bigger than that.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  In Destin, it was in Destin.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, two eight balls. I used to buy them five at a time undercover, undercover.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Undercover, really?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  All the time, yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Gosh, boy.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  But you get deeper and you get into the more serious, now you're getting up to like ounces, you're getting up to kilo buys and...

• 52:08Speaker 00

  So you'd see real, that much cocaine, you saw real?

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Real cocaine?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but that's nothing.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Was it hard not to smile when you saw it?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  No, you smile after the takedown and then you get your, you get the, you get the photo, you go up there and do your trophy shot, you know? But, but that's nothing. Just picture if you were working in Miami and then, like I'm saying where I worked, man, 100 kilos. Or you, but you go down the border, well, man, you can trip over 500 pounds just riding up and down the river.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Um, cause it's so porous and stuff, but the biggest weed seizure I got was 5,000 pounds.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  We literally filled up two trucks, I mean, my truck was loaded. I was sitting in the seat like this, just, I mean, I couldn't even, it was just packed and we've loaded another truck. That's, it was a lot.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Did you even get a buzz driving with it? Cause you smell it, was it that strong of a smell?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's strong, yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, uh...

• 53:00Speaker 00

  Dude, one time me and my friend Billy Conforto, R.I.P., and he was one of the, he was one of the first, um, gay male prize fighters in America, but he, um, we got taken out of a car. We had some weed on us, some pounds of weed, the cops pulled us over like shit. So he put it in our front, like in our pants.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  And the cop was like, I'm gonna sit y'all in, in the cruiser while I search the vehicle. So he sat us in there and we, we just had it.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Was it raking though?

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Did you smell it?

• 53:26Speaker 00

  I don't know why he thought that, but it was like, well, he just put us in there, we had it in our, so now we're sitting with it in the cruiser. He searched the car and then just said, okay, nothing to see there, put you guys back in it, you guys take it easy.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  So I don't know what made him think it, maybe he did smell it originally, but anyway.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Fight another day.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  We got lucky that day.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  We got lucky. And we didn't do too much, you know, we weren't doing anything real heavy over there. And I think back then, if you were gay, you had to be high to even just get through it, it was, it's a different time.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  If you're prize fighting too, you know? But, um, anyway, what were you talking about?

• 53:57Speaker 01

  So, so I've seen a lot of the dope stuff, but just picture, if you're in Miami, like I just told you 100 kilos and you think that's a lot, well, what if you bust up in the hole of a ship and you've got 2,000 kilos? I mean, you see that stuff and I'm like, I've never seen 2,000, but I've seen, I've seen some big stacks.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Does it get competitive to be on a big bus?

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Friendly competition or, uh, I call it friendly, uh, you know, DEA versus FBI, yeah, we always bust chops.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  And you're working cases together. Um, but then I'll switch to alien smuggling. Because at, at that point in time, in, in McAllen, it, well, I guess in the bureau, it was becoming a serious topic to look at special interest alien smuggling. And it's not just, you're not saying, hey, I'm looking for the, the normal, um, uh, human trafficking. Uh, we are looking for people being smuggled in from threat countries. So like your threat countries, Russia, China, um...

• 54:57Speaker 00

  And why would they be being smuggled in? Like what is?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's what we're trying to figure out.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Got it, so you're...

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Are they up to bat, are they up, are they gonna, coming in here with nefarious plans or are they legitimately trying to get out of where they're at?

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  To a better life.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  Got it. It, it's, it's interesting to me that like, that that would be kind of an assignment for you guys, right?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  Or, or like that would come down as part of the detail.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  But then at the same time, you would have the government that would like lackadaisically, it would seem, allow people to come into the country.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Right? Like it seems like they're trying to play both sides of the scale there.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like it.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Did it, did it ever feel to you like, um, like the government was starting some of the problems that the, that you guys were then being hired to go and solve? Like did it ever?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Well, ATF's Fast and Furious, that would be a yes. I mean, you know, there's plenty of document, documentaries out there and, and some good books, uh...

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Oh, is that, I, I'm not even familiar with that.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Fast and Furious, that's when the...

• 55:55Speaker 00

  Oh, the movie?

• 55:56Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no. That was their operation, Fast and Furious, where they were, it was, it was alleged that they were allowing guns to go to the cartel. And then those guns would show back up, yeah, those guns would show back up and one of those guns killed a border patrol agent.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  But you're smuggling, so look at it like this, and I'm not trying to bash anybody, I mean...

• 56:20Speaker 00

  No, it doesn't seem like it, I'm asking you.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Everybody's got, every agency has their black eyes, but just look at it this way. If I released a kilo of cocaine into the streets and it came from me, an FBI agent, anybody gets sick, hurt, killed over that, that's, that's my fault, that's a liability. So I'm looking at it the same way with fully automatic weapons and stuff.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Uh, I just know that, I know as a case agent, working what I've worked, how hard it is to get approvals for the, anything close to that. So I was a little dumbfounded at how...

• 56:53Speaker 00

  How that worked out?

• 56:54Speaker 01

  How the heck that happened, you know?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Let me, just so our listeners know about it, uh, Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial 2009 to 2011 Bureau of Alcohol, uh, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives sting operation, used a gun-walking tactic, letting illicit firearms pass to Mexican cartels to track high-level leaders, which failed when tracked weapons were lost and used in violent crimes. Wow. So they let them through to be able to kind of, maybe I guess they would tag them or find some way to tray, follow them, so they could know who these people were that were getting them to high levels, but then those were used to kill our own people.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Led by the Phoenix, Arizona Field Office under Project Gun Runner, um, allowed straw buyers to illegally purchase thousands of weapons with the intent to trace them to major cartel leaders. Um, agents were ordered not to interdict or seize weapons during purchases, losing track of roughly 2,000 firearms. They were exposed after the border patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in 2010 by rifles tied to the operation. Uh, resulted in Attorney General Eric Holder being held in contempt of Congress in 2012 for withholding documents through a Department of Justice report cleared up, though a Department of Justice report cleared him of direct knowledge of the tactic. So was this, this was happening while you were working?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  And did that scare you?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  And I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate from ATF, I'm sorry about that. I, I love ATF. I got a lot of friends at ATF.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and it doesn't mean that their bosses or the people above them might not be having some separate interests at times.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Right, and, and the FBI

• 58:25Speaker 01

  were an easy target too. They can, they can, they can name plenty of things that that organization's done too. But yeah, I was, I was just thinking off the top of my head, like, um, and you know, you gotta be careful because like, let me use an example. Like I'm a vice narcotics investigator, so in Greenville, South Carolina, at the time I was there, it was illegal to gamble.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  So maybe, maybe we identified three major gambling operations. Well, maybe we pop one of the ones or go and interview them and flip them, but the head of that one is now giving us information on the other two and we're working the other two. But you don't want a Whitey Bulger situation where you're letting this, your source go and wreak havoc for free while, so it's always a, you know what I mean? It's, it's...

• 59:04Speaker 00

  It's a balance.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, that's why when we do stuff like that, if, if you're providing information, we let you know what you can and can't do. And I've told many, many sources that I've had for about 28 years of career, um, I'll be like, look, if you do this, I cannot take up for you at all, but if you call me before it happens, I can take up, you know what I mean? It's kind of that thing.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Understood. Oh, wow. Yeah. Are there, so when dealing with informants, this has got to be pretty fascinating, so you dealt with a lot of informants?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  A bunch. For me...

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Operating an informant for me is a lot like undercover and they mesh because when I'm an undercover, I'm essentially being a source for another FBI agent. It's just that I'm not a criminal. I don't have a felon on my record. I'm actually a bonded law enforcement officer, but I'm still going in and getting the information. I'm still getting the recorded stuff. I'm still that person. So for me, when I'm dealing with sources, I go, you're doing what I do on other cases, but I'm asking you to do it for me.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  First of all, what, what people in like towns and regular towns in America are actually end up being like informants or narcs or whatever. Because dude, when I was in school, you always hear like Ricky's a narc or whatever.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  You narc.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, Ricky, bro, Ricky, it would be like one kid like wore the wrong PE outfit and like that guy's a fucking narc. Narc was the biggest thing, bro. And people were, and sometimes you'd even find somebody who's got, yeah, snitch who got a little card from like the local police department that said they were helping them and stuff. Like every now and then they had like this, like, I don't even think it was laminated, bro. That bitch got wet and it didn't exist. But what types of people like in towns are actually are the first types of people you would get as informants for, for certain things? Or is that not even a real thing? Like, or like at a high school? I'm just trying to think where like?

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  I would say it depends on what violation you're working.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  If I'm working gangs and I'm working transnational organized crime, uh, which is what I worked for a long time. Well, then maybe I'm gonna try to find and develop a source that can give me information on this, like this car, this whatever, this, this group that's been bringing in drugs that we've heard about. Or what if it's multiple robberies? We're trying to find somebody that knows something about, have you heard any scatter? I mean, any skeletal butt? Maybe you, maybe you talk to ladies of the night, some prostitutes, escorts and say, hey, if you know, you know, things like that. But you can also be a high falutin case. I'm saying high falutin because look at me. I'm not high falutin. But it could be like a, an espionage case. It could be like a white collar case. And maybe, maybe

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  the sources for those are very upstanding members of society. And you can go talk to them and say, hey, I was wondering if you could give me some information. They'd be like, I would love to give you some information. Me, I'm talking, when I say developing sources, when I was working, I'm like, I'm talking about going to somebody that you may never would hang out with, that you may think is a piece of trash or not, but those people have never liked law enforcement. And I'm talking to that person and after our conversation, I've heard things, you, you hear things like, uh, man, for a cop, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad. Or I didn't know there were cops like you. So you just, it's, it's on you. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's the way I would do it. And I do think it goes hand in hand. But being, if, if you don't know, in my opinion, if you don't know how

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  to develop and operate sources, um, I don't think you're probably going to be an awesome undercover.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  Did you ever have to pick like disguises or was there like a war, like, yeah, did somebody help like fit you for a scene? Did, did they give you a photo or like a lookbook? Like, hey, here's what you can wear and not wear? Were there like, was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a certain patch? Like if it was like a, a certain gang affiliation or something? Like, how did you manage that? Take me into a little bit of that.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  It really comes down to the intelligence of the case team that's bringing you in. Hopefully they've done their due diligence and as an undercover, you can ask those questions. Now, is there a wardrobe department? No. But do we have things in the undercover program where maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that? Yeah, we've got that. But as far as like wearing the wrong patch or not, that's going to be, again, ultimately it's on me as the undercover. Um, like if I, but if, if I want to know, if I, if I want to know, like if I ask for a weapon that doesn't come back to law enforcement, well, I shouldn't just take their word for it. I probably need to run that number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't come back to FBI Quantico. Cause I've been on cases that that happened.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Like, what does that mean?

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Like, it means like, so you got serial numbers on your weapons. If they check that in NCIC, it's going to come back to something. Well, sometimes bad people have contacts that can run that kind of stuff, whether it's through corruption or whatever.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Oh, I see. So if your weapon has your number on it and they see that.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  And they run it and it says, oh, this is a Glock 22, uh, FBI Quantico.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  Right. And that's on you.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  So I was undercover and I'd requested a fully covert weapon, whatever. It's supposed to be working with ATF and everything. And, and I was probably six months in to the undercover. And somehow I was on the call with Quantico and, uh, asking how we get the, it was, it's drawn out, but basically, uh, the guy's like, whoa, at that point in time, he goes, we really don't have any covert weapon. And I was, I looked, I said, go run this weapon right now to the trainee. And they ran it. It said FBI Quantico. And I'm like, I'm like, bro. I mean, I could have just carried my normal weapon. That goes back to Quantico too. But it really is on you. But, um, for me, now I'll tell you what I have done. If

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  I go in and I meet a source, uh, I'll ask them, like sometimes my beard's this long and I'm long hair, which is getting less and less now. I'm, I'm, I'm going to be thinning out here even more soon, but.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Looks healthy, man.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  But you go, the thing is, is they'll go, uh, I'll ask them, hey, I was on an undercover. Meet the person. We talked for hours. I'll come back and meet them again because I'm trying to figure out, hey, am I the right fit? Is this going to work? Cause we're going to be basically undercover. Yeah. We're basically going to be undercover together. And I'll say, does this work? And they would look and go, nah, man, that's too dirty. We're rednecks, but we're clean cut rednecks. And I said, well, what do you do? I said, how about like a nice goatee? Is that good? Normal haircut? They're like, yeah, that'd be perfect, man. Button up shirt untucked. I'm like, cool. Now, I'm just doing that so I don't look like a, like way out of place. I want to look, I'm, I'm mirroring them.

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Um, but for me, uh, I always stuck really close to who I was. I was always Scott. Different last name, but I may or may not have played football in college. I may or may not be a musician and a singer, may or may not be married with kids for your degree, but you can bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights. And then you just kind of go from there. Cause my jokes are literally the same. I'm just twisting them because that, it's real to me. You know, I tell the true story.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Have you ever been in, in, in an instance where you weren't even the best choice for the role, but you ended up in it?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, we call, I mean, you can word it a right case, wrong undercover, right undercover, wrong case. But, uh, I had a buddy of mine and he was running, he's an undercover as well, but he was the case agent. And he was running this undercover on like a dirty doctor selling pills or giving pills for sex and stuff like that. The idea was because of my background to come in and be the closer to get this doctor on drug trafficking, right?

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  And I came in and I'm, I basically said, I, uh, I'm a competitive powerlifter, but I'm getting older, bills are getting tight and I need something for the pain kind of thing. I was trying to do that because they'd already had a bunch of reporting of like this, this doctor, like, you know, uh, a woman goes in for a visit, she, he prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever. She leaves and there's a used condom in the trash can.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  And you're like, okay, all right. And then maybe somebody reports, hey, this doctor tried to do this to me or something like that. So now I'm coming in as a new patient and I knew a lot of the pill mill stuff because I was working it as a case agent as well. Um, but, um, yeah, I was just the wrong guy. Like I did the first meet and then the second time I came back, he starts telling me, well, you know, Scott, sometimes people come in here and they get these and they go sell them on the street. And I was like, I never said I was going to do that. I said, I'm in pain, man. He's like, what? And I, I left the meeting that day and I went to hand over the recording to the case agent. It was my friend. And I told him, I said, I'm not the right guy, man. You don't even need to send me back in there. I'm just, I don't know what it is, but he does not like me.

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  It just wasn't fitting? Can you feel when something doesn't fit?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you, yeah, you can feel it, especially if you're trying to force it, you know? And I tried a little bit that day with that guy, but he was not, something about me, I don't know whether he thought I was a snitch or a fed or something or something, but he didn't, maybe he didn't feel he could control me. Um, but I was not the right guy for the job.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  What are some things as an undercover, just like general rule of thumb that you don't want to do? It's like, do you not want to talk much? Like, is there like, you know, or I guess, is it case by case basis, I guess?

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. I mean, it depends on, I mean, there's actually attorney general guidelines on what we can and can't do. Like we can't be involved in an act of violence unless it's self-defense. Um, you can't like instigate the crime, you know, because that'd be entrapment. You know what I mean? Um, instigate and run the crime and then all of a sudden, now you're under arrest, you know?

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  Have there ever been romantic things that happened along the way where it's like, there's almost temptation for that? Like where you met somebody, you're like, well, shit, I'm spending half my days in this environment, you know?

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Uh, I've been in situations where, yeah, uh, but you don't do that. You don't do that. I've seen other things where, you know, maybe people fall in love. It's just think about it like this. If you've got my luck and I'm doing a deep undercover and I'm at this bar and you start hitting on me and I actually was a single man and, and, and we end up hooking up and dating, my luck, that's going to end up being the target sister or something. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Is that frowned upon? Can you legally do that though?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  No, it'd be a policy violation for sure. Yeah. It'd be, it'd be a policy violation. Now, maybe in like, if you go super eyes by, I don't know, you know, I don't know all the CIA's rules. I don't know MI5 and MI6's rules, but yeah, that would be, it would just be a bad foundation, period. Even if that person ended up not being, um, I'd rather you, I'd rather you bring in your real wife who isn't also an undercover FBI agent.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Then y'all just be you, you know, if you got that.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Do you think that most of us interact with undercover officers or agents within our lives without even realizing it?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say that because literally like in the biker world, they call it like you got the one percenter biker clubs. They say that if you're an undercover, um, in, in law enforcement, you're a one percenter. Cause there's like 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  I see. So you don't think most of us have interacted probably with an undercover agent without realizing it?

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  You might have based on some of your history.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Depending on where I'm at, I might have, but you know.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  I was surprised we hadn't met.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  I know, right? But if I was at the, uh, if I was at the Oak Ridge Laboratory, no, I'm probably not running into an undercover. I don't think, you know? I don't know. Maybe you could be, if you're trying to sell, you know, uh, classified material, then yeah. But I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I don't walk around like that. Yeah. I don't.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  But it's not that common that most of us just regular people have interacted with the undercover agent in our lives. You don't think so?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  But I don't think paranoid either. There are some people like, what if everybody in this room is an intelligence officer? I'm like, what if they are?

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  They're trying to get information. I'm trying to get information. Buy me a drink.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  You know, pay for this steak.

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  Um, yeah. What is a one percenter? You hear about that term a lot and that's a gang, a biker gang?

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Motorcycle clubs. If you are considered a one percenter motorcycle club, let's see, after Vietnam War, and everybody should, well, I don't know about these days. Who knows if they know about Vietnam War, but you, they would come in, uh, soldiers were coming back and they weren't treated very well. And there was no kind of a transition thing, you know, or decompression. Um, and a lot of the motorcycle clubs, um, I mean, they started back in World War II and stuff like that, but a lot of these motorcycle clubs, uh, were forming and they were doing some, you know, rowdy stuff. So the president of the American Motor, American Motorcycle Association, I think is what it was called, comes out and does this media blitz to say, hey,

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens. So they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're then with the 1%, we're 1%ers and it's a patch on there. On there, yeah. So you, it's your, like you see 1%er, you're gonna see the big ones, Hells Angels, Outlaws, Mongols, Pagans.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  They like to be the out, they like to be the, well, we're not the one, we're, we're the, we're the non-law abiding, we're doing our own thing. I like that.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  So am I saying, it's gonna be, yeah, that's the patch right there. Everybody always asks it, you know, they're like, well, are you saying all 1%er biker clubs are criminals? I go, no, but it kind of goes with being a 1%er. I mean, you know what I mean?

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you're not.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, I'm not saying that means you gotta go break the law, but you're definitely not.

• 1:12:21Speaker 00

  It's just saying you got an edge on it.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't care about the law, basically.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, you like, or you like to, you got some of your own laws as well. That's what I think.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a 1%er.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  Man, this is, it's all interesting, man, because some of these terms I've heard before and it's nice to just kind of get to like, hear them in the use of the world that they're from.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:39Speaker 00

  Take me into, uh, your experience with the Outlaws, right? That's a biker gang you were involved with where you went undercover.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Yes, uh, that was the longest one I did, two years.

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  I've, I've done, like, if, if I look back at my career, I can be like, yeah, there was a year and a half case, that was a year and a half case. You go where the case takes you, a lot of times, uh, or the case ends because something happened, they're like, mm, we're not doing this, like something, like somebody got hurt or something, but, uh, for the Outlaws, um, I was already a certified undercover. Um, I'd already done, uh, I, I'd already done several undercovers in the bureau, but I had all the state and local experience too, and, um, I was already role-playing and, and helping at the undercover school that we have.

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  And this is, this is in South Carolina?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, no, no. Uh, by the time I was doing that, I was living in McAllen, Texas.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  Okay, got it.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when I got, when I got hired out of the FBI, or I got hired out of South Carolina for the FBI, when I came out of Quantico, my first office was in New York City, which goes back to the sergeant, which is funny, because I did not pick it as number one. It was like 36 out of 56. So when I went back for my, pick up my clothes and have the after, have the going away party for Scott, I went up to him and I go, dude, you jinxed me, man. I'm like, I got New York City, what is wrong? Um, but I was actually assigned to New York when 9/11 happened, but the day of, I was undercover. I was in Texas, but, so now I'm moved down to Texas. I'm in McAllen, I'm a case agent, so I'm still doing that stuff, firearms.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so, okay, so you're down in McAllen?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then as a certified undercover, I can't remember if, if they canvassed through an email or did I get a phone call from somebody, because once you start going back and role-playing and teaching at the undercover school, I mean, the best way to describe it is let's just say, oh, that scared me, man.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Oh, something bit me, my phone vibrated. So I, I get a, a call, um, because you're starting to get known. If you're role-playing at the school and, well.

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  What do you mean at the school? So there's an undercover school?

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  To get certified, just like, just like to become an FBI agent. I mean, it's not five months.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  Wait, hold on. So there's an undercover school, an academy?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Two, two weeks, uh, yeah.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  And you learn how to be undercover?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Well, you gotta pass. It's not so much that you're learning, it's just that you're learning techniques and stuff, but Jed, you gotta pass.

• 1:14:54Speaker 00

  And what are some of the techniques you learn there? Sorry that I, I didn't, I didn't grasp onto this before. Like, is it almost acting teachers that are there teaching?

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  No, no, so, uh, won't give away everything for the school, but I'll give away what's kind of out there. Um, the FBI undercover school is considered one of the toughest certification schools the FBI puts on. Some say it is the toughest. I'll say HRT is the toughest, because HRT is tier one, SWAT on steroids, uh, is two weeks as well for the tryout.

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  What does it mean, HRT?

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Uh, hostage rescue team.

• 1:15:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  So you can be SWAT in all your divisions, like I was SWAT in, in McAllen, San Antonio Division, I was SWAT in Knoxville. Um, but HRT is at Quantico, based out of Quantico.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Hostage rescue team, and I mean, they're hot too. They train with the tier one teams, it's high speed, my high speed, you know, helicopters, all that stuff. Um, but that one is also a two-week tryout, very physical and mental. A lot of times, at least from what I'm understanding.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  HRT is?

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, HRT is like, you just want to get through the two weeks without getting injured.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  And you went through it?

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  No, no, I was going to. If, if I wouldn't have got out of New York City, I was gonna diet down to probably around 250 pounds and then, because there's a lot of running, and I was gonna go try out. Does that mean I would have made it? No. A lot of people don't ever, I don't know, I haven't known anybody that made it their first time, but, but the undercover school is two weeks.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, what are some of the courses? Like, what do you guys, what's the course?

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  So you're gonna, the gist is this, big on sleep deprivation, no days off. Um, that sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses, right? So you're gonna be getting training during the day. I might teach a block on the Outlaws. I might teach a block on white supremacy cases that I've worked. Maybe somebody else is teaching, maybe it's the legal person, whatever. You're gonna get training during the day and at night, generally, uh, the way it was running when I was in it, at night, you're gonna be doing role-playing scenarios. You're probably gonna get two a night and everybody goes through every scenario. That way, there's no liability. In other words, you can't say, hey, that person's background is drugs and you only gave them undercover drug scenarios.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  What's like an example scenario you would probably go through?

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Hmm, they probably wouldn't want me to say.

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  That's fair.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Because it'll give it away.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  That's fair.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  But just say this, you're getting tested, you may die, you may die miserably in a scenario, and then you gotta turn around and go, all right, buck up, little camper, we're still got one more for the night, you know?

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Bro, if you go 0 for 2 in one night, bro?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, and then, and I will tell you this, uh, I got certified in 02, 2002. I started role-playing in 2003 and I probably only missed a handful of schools in my 23 years of the FBI, and I never knew or heard of a 100% graduation rate. That doesn't mean that it's hazing and none of that stuff, it just means that it's a great certification school and not everybody's cut out for undercover.

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  Understood. What do you think is the number one thing that blows like an officer's cover?

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Uh, blowing the cover? Oh, man. Uh, there could be, I mean, bad, bad backstopping, bad, having a bad legend, you slipping up and not knowing your stuff.

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  Think your story or whatever.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you need to know it. And picture, picture if you're undercover for two years. I'll meet you on day one, whatever I say right now, I need to remember two years from now. So that's why I stuck close to who I was.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  Bro.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  And as I got, oh, now, in, early in the game, oh, man, I was making, like, I'd be undercover and I'd be signing my name Scott Payne. And undercover, I, the P would form and I'd go, oh, I'm Callaway, and I'd do, but then I'd be home as Scott Payne and I would sign Scott Callaway. And you're like, dad gumming. But lucky for me, I, I ended up getting better at it. And by the time I was, when I retired, I think I had like eight phones. I had like one FBI, one personal, everything else was undercover. And I just, I, I just get so, I got so good, because I'd be like, or I'm gonna say good, because it sounds like I'm chest-beating, but it just, it was easier for me to do. Like, the phone would ring and I'd see the skull and the color and I'd go, okay, that's that case. What's up, brother? How's it going? Blah, blah, you know, that's that case, yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Dang, man.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  So at one time you were actively involved in how many cases?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I don't, so, there are, again, I'll say it again, there are men and women out there that have done way more than me.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  But I will say that for my 23 years in the FBI, if you were a full-time undercover, like, like you're not doing anything else but undercover, that was pretty rare, uh, as an FBI agent, um, because as I said, I was still expected to run cases and do whatever back in my office, you know, so.

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  But you were working full, on full-time undercover?

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Uh, there was, I know, I can remember twice, maybe there was a third time that I was listed full-time undercover in the FBI, but all the other times I would, it might be two weeks undercover, but I go back home and then I'm a case agent again, and I've got to run the training for everybody and firearms and tactics.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  You ever do like chef work? You ever been in like, uh, because I could also see you, I just thought of this, man, I'm thinking of ways I could see you doing undercover. And I'm thinking dessert chef.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  With a hat?

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  Yes, with a hat. Because a lot of those guys, you know, they'll have a beard, they'll have some facial hair, they have tattoos. Cause it's a lot of art.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I could put the hairnet on. Oh, totally, yeah.

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  It's artistic people that are kind of chefs, you know what I'm saying? It's like, that's kind of like an artistic sort of style.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, screw it, screw it then, yeah.

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that frosting pipette.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  You like it, the pepper?

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  You put a.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  You want the pepper?

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  You put a set of handcuffs on a declarer, you know? Yeah, I could see you, I could see you doing something like that.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  All law enforcement thief, that's pretty good.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Was there pretty, but, but most of the ones that you did, it was pretty close to who you were, though?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, the exception would be when I got called for murder for hire. Cause I'm a jokester, uh, I got a pretty sick sense of humor. Uh, I may know not, I used to say this, like, I might not know a lot, but I know funny.

• 1:20:42Speaker 00

  That's fair.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  So, uh, sense of humor, jovial, but when I'm doing a murder for hire, or what I would call a closer, like if, like if you're somebody wanting to do something bad and you're meeting me and you want a bomb, I call that like a closer. Like I'm providing you with a gun that you want to go shoot up a synagogue or something like that.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  I call that a closer. So those, uh, my jovialness goes away. I never, I mean, I wouldn't, there's no point in me really building rapport with you because you think I'm a stone cold killer.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  And the stone cold killer, those are usually quicker cases, too.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  Have there been some murder for hires that you got involved in?

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:21:13Speaker 00

  And who's often trying to kill whom? Uh, is there a commonality there?

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I would say it would be spousal, right? Would probably be the most, but it would be like wife, cheating wife, and her, the man she's cheating with solicit me to kill the husband. Because there's like a ninety-two thousand dollar life insurance plan.

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  I never, the stuff you see in the movies, and I mean, I've known some of my mentors that have done those hundred thousand dollar payment hits. I'm like, I, no, not in my world, man. It was, it was ten grand. I'll give you ten, yeah, I'll give you twelve grand after we collect.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  The money.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  The insurance policy. I'm like, you're telling me you want me to go kill somebody on your word? And we, no, that's not how this works.

• 1:22:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  So give me something, you know?

• 1:22:06Speaker 00

  And where would they meet? Where does somebody like that usually try to meet you at for the first time? Like, is there a general place?

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I've met them in hotel rooms, I've met them at their place.

• 1:22:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Uh, one of the ones that's in the book, um, I got, they, they believed we were bikers. I brought in a task force officer. They believed we were one percenter bikers and they were hiring us to do four home invasions and murder, I think, two or three people. Uh, but what they do is they knew where the dope was because the son was running the dope and the money. So he knew of four different drug dealers and he knew where the cash was at, where the guns were at, where the dope was at in every house.

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  So the plan was to do four home invasions and then murder two of them and then I get some money, I guess.

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  God, that seems like a lot.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  And she was, she was a wild one, man. Like, uh, this is later in my career, uh, and, uh,

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  uh, like I told you, I would joke around and be like with headquarters, I'm like, how come I don't get to go to like, you know, overseas and how come I don't, how come I don't get to get on big boats? You know, yeah, I can get on one if I'm cleaning it, you know what I mean? Okay, I'm getting the chum out the back, you know?

• 1:23:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, why don't I get the big gig?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  What is this? Oh, I get to carry the luggage, that's cool, yeah. Uh, if I'm in a fancy environment, it's because I was muscle for the main person there, that's it.

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  Amen, yeah, so you need that guy to stand up to the guy.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  In the back, you know, uh, but.

• 1:23:32Speaker 00

  Was there ever, were you ever in an environment where somebody pulled out a weapon and it was really?

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I have been, um, but let me, let me tell you about Tammy real quick, though.

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:23:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, tell them about Tammy.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  So we go for this one case and it was in Ohio and this, this late, we, we think we're, we know we're going to meet the husband and we thought it was the husband's plan. Cause we've talked to somebody, just talked to them and then we know that they, they're looking for somebody to do this kind of thing.

• 1:23:56Speaker 00

  You thought it was husband's plan?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we go, we go to the garage and, you know, we're, we're talking to the husband and he's like, well, it's not my plan, it's my old lady's. And I'm like, well, why are we talking to you then? Where's, where's the old lady? She's like, oh, she's sleeping. We're all staring, awkward silence. You think I should go wake her up? And I said, I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to no one.

• 1:24:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  We're gonna do business, let's do business. He goes and wakes her up, she hops in the truck in the front passenger seat, they're in the back. She is tweaking, she's clawing herself, flakes of skin are going everywhere. We're probably inhaling it, you know?

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  Oh, you can cook up a little bit of that skin, you can grill you up a little bowl of it.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Pork rinds, yeah.

• 1:24:36Speaker 00

  Hit it. Smoke that shit.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Some pork rinds.

• 1:24:41Speaker 00

  That's some real pork.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  That's some pork rinds, man. So we're driving and as she's showing us all these spots, she's like talking out fast, she's kind of tweaking a little bit. Uh, at least that's my opinion, I don't know if she was on drugs.

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  And she's hiring to kill the husband?

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  No, she, it was her idea, she just, she, I mean, the husband's involved, but it was her idea. So she's the one that gets in the car because it's her son that's driving around the dope for these people.

• 1:25:02Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  So she's showing us these spots, but while she's showing us these spots, she starts talking all this crazy stuff. She's like, she's like, um, you know, I'm really into torture. So if you need anybody tortured that you bring, if you, I'm really big into it. And I'm like, okay, driving, I'm like, all right. And again, it's later in my career. I'm just kind of, I don't know if I'm nonchalant or desensitized or whatever you want to call it, but I'm driving. She says, you know that you can take, uh, I can get graphic on here, right?

• 1:25:28Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Cause it's graphic, okay? So she says, it's in the book anyway. She says, you know, you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it into the man's penis. Sorry, I hit the microphone, so I said it again. Bend the hanger on the end, shove it into a man's penis, rip it back out and then pour salt in the wound.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  Nah-uh.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Now, the guys in the back are going, oh, goodness gracious, oh, man. And I'm like, literally two weeks prior to that, I'd had my second lumbar fusion. The surgery was great and an easy recovery, but they had messed up, I had to get dry cath. So as she's describing that and I'm like, I, that's pretty much what I felt two weeks ago, right?

• 1:26:06Speaker 00

  So it's hitting home with you.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so then she's like, and then you can take, there's another one you can do. You can take a PVC pipe and shove it up somebody's anus, run barbed wire up in it and rip their anus from the inside out.

• 1:26:17Speaker 00

  Well, that's insane.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Right, and I'm looking at her and I'm going, we pull up to the red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, she said, I think one of the lines, she, I don't know if she used it right then or later, she said, I've been unlucky in love.

• 1:26:30Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  So as we're, we're getting.

• 1:26:32Speaker 00

  Damn, I mean, she's looking, she's doing like, it sounds like she's doing side quests from Home Depot or something in, in Laredo or whatever, like, cause that shit's, I mean.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  I was undercover in Laredo.

• 1:26:42Speaker 00

  What is she talking about, dude? She sounds just like an angry ex Lowe's employee or whatever.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  So we're driving and I'm like, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She goes, no, no, everybody knows me around here, but if you need somebody tortured, I can torture them. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So we pull up to the next red light and she says, you know, my husband, I told him never go on a bender again. She said, he was gone for three or four days, up all the time, I can't think it was cocaine she said he was using, but went on a cocaine bender. She said, he came back, she couldn't find him, he came back, she said, he passed out so hard. He didn't wake up, you know what she did to him? And he's a skinny man. She said, so I went and got a two by four and I shoved it under his legs and I took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board.

• 1:27:25Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  And he, even when, when he woke up from it, he's trying to stand up, but it's stapled to the board behind him and he's, he's trying to move and he's screaming for her to take it out. She said, no, he had to call his friend over to do it. We confirmed it with the husband.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Well, I thought, man, she's got to be full of it. He said, no, she did it. And I said, and you're still with her? He said, I ain't never had nobody do nothing like that to me. And I'm like, what the heck, God?

• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  Eat, it's, sometimes love is just, it's so, it's violent.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  I know, and she's, and so when she said that part, as we're, as we're pulling up to stop, um, cause one of the, the, the task force officer, he was like, he goes, man, remind me never to piss you off, you know, one of those things, you know? And, uh, when we pulled up, you know, all that stuff's running through my head, all this scenario is, and when we pull up, I go,

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  you watch a lot of slasher flicks? And she goes, that's all I watch. And I went, now it's making sense. She's talking about human centipede, like sewing a body into a body and I'm like, good gravy. I'm like, but in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm going, these are my people.

• 1:28:26Speaker 00

  They, yeah.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  This is what my skill set leads me to, you know what I mean? I go back in the backwoods and somebody's talking, not, not, not trying to chastise anybody, but they're talking, they don't have any teeth and their lips aren't moving. I had to revert back to my family, some, some distant people in my family to go, okay, now I know what they're saying.

• 1:28:45Speaker 00

  That's where I belong.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Now, now I know what they're saying. Cause at first I'm like, what? And I'm going, oh, I know what you're saying.

• 1:28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right, yeah.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  I'm translating.

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, well, you never really lose, lose where you're from, you know?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Just start hanging out with them.

• 1:28:57Speaker 00

  Hey.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  I'll get more and more country.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Oh dude, yeah, that happens quick. You go home and you just.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  That go.

• 1:29:03Speaker 00

  And home comes back to you, you know? Cause it's always been there, sometimes it's just like, uh, it's, it's, it sits on the sidelines, sometimes where it's, it's intermingled with the new places you're at. Um, was there ever any spaces where you got involved and there was like, um, like human sat, like any, any type of like sacrificial or like ceremonial stuff that kind of went on?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh, so working domestic terrorism, there started to, we started seeing a shift where a lot of the white supremacist groups were claiming to be Odinist, right? They're claiming to be pagans, um, but that's not illegal. Uh, and I've got some very good friends who are pagans and they are Odinist, so if.

• 1:29:48Speaker 00

  Odinist, bring that up.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  O-D-I-N-I-S-T-S.

• 1:29:52Speaker 00

  Okay. Odinism, um, is generally a racialist oriented practice that places the highest fundamental view on the figure of Odin. Uh, Odinist pagan usually refers to a Norse Germanic pagan who centers their practice on the god Odin, but in modern usage, the term Odinist is heavily entangled with far-right radical, far-right racialist groups. In a straightforward religious sense, Odinism is a form of Germanic Norse paganism that honors Odin as a chief deity along with other Norse gods such as Thor, Freya, Freya, Frayer and Frig. Um, can you give me any, uh, any better information about?

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with what that just said, because that's what I was getting ready to say.

• 1:30:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  The pagan part right there, relationship to pagan, I would read that.

• 1:30:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Because it, maybe they're tying the word Odinist to white supremacy, but that was what I was going to say. That true pagans are upset because, you know, Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff. You would see like the Sonnenrad, you would see all the, all the, uh, Norse type, uh, runes and stuff.

• 1:30:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean that they're white supremacists, so maybe you want to read that.

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  Odinism is a modern neo pagan religion.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  That revives the ancient Norse and Germanic worship of deities like Odin and Thor, emphasizing personal honor, bravery, and a connection to nature. While many practitioners view it as a universal nature-based faith, specific branches and extremist groups have co-opted the movement as a racially-exclusive white supremacist ideology. Does that sound?

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  Yes, that's, that's what I was talking about.

• 1:31:27Speaker 00

  Okay, got it.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  So, we started seeing a, a shift back, I guess you can say, because even under the Hitler, uh, neo-Nazi stuff, you would see a lot of, uh, Norse runes and Norse mythology and, and stuff like that, but-

• 1:31:41Speaker 00

  What years was this when you were seeing this?

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, so, the base case that I'm gonna talk about was 2019. We took it down in 2020.

• 1:31:48Speaker 00

  Okay, got it.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, took it down in COVID year. So, you start seeing that, and I've got close friends who are pagans. And you look at the Asatru community, they are unhappy.

• 1:32:00Speaker 00

  The Asatru community?

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Asatru's pagan.

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  Asatru?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, Asatru.

• 1:32:04Speaker 00

  Asatru.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Um, so, they believe in, uh, the Norse pantheon, so what you read, uh, Thor, Freya, you know?

• 1:32:12Speaker 00

  Friar?

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Friar and Frig and-

• 1:32:14Speaker 00

  Frig?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Odin, uh, uh, is the Norse, but there's-

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  And forget about it?

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, forget about it.

• 1:32:19Speaker 00

  That's the Italian one.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  There's, there's a, there, there are other panthe- other pantheons where people might be like, oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, but we started seeing this stuff. And if you go and look at pagans, if, like, back, uh, well, I mean, you can find it in Christianity, too. There were sacrifices, right? Um, so-

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  We have the Bible has sacrifices in it.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, Old Testament. Um, so, one of the cases I did, I whistled, sorry. So, one of the cases I did, uh, was into an accelerationist group. So, I go into great detail in the book, but it's like, if you ask the average person in America, you know, what do you think a white supremacist is? A lot of them, they may know neo-Nazi. They may even know like a skinhead, or they're gonna say like KKK, Ku Klux Klan, hoods and robes and stuff. That's not what this is. These are accelerationists, and they don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society's gonna collapse either on its own or from mad-made of it, man-made events, and they want to speed that up. They wanna speed it up through guerrilla warfare tactics, like, just small hits.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Just picture like, power grid goes down over here, water system's poisoned over here, train derailed over here, anything to create chaos.

• 1:33:35Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not saying it's the best game plan in the world, and this may be hard to wrap your mind around, but, uh, we, they came onto our radar, um, from being online and recruiting, and-

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  So, they were recruiting online?

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, and you, and a lot of your accelerationists also, uh, groups were big on what we call flyering, or stickering, or postering. So, you put up a flyer and it'll be like, uh, save your race, join the base, you know, survivalist group, there you go. And see that QR code? So, you'd scan that QR code, and it takes you right to bit shoot, and there's a recruitment video, right there. And that's my picture right there. I mean, that, that, those are bibles being burnt right there in that fire.

• 1:34:15Speaker 00

  They are?

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you blow it up, you'll see Holy Bible on that picture.

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Ah, you can lean it down. I don't even wanna see that, but I believe that it's happening. And so, and who's the people on the left? Is this, that's not that Christmas thing they do on the levee over there in Lafayette, is it?

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  No, that'd be a 20 to 30 foot cross on fire with diesel fuel.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  I don't understand it, man.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  I know, there's a lot of history in the Ku Klux Klan, um-

• 1:34:39Speaker 00

  I wonder if we should have someone on some time just to learn even about it. And there's Matt Damon.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Is there?

• 1:34:43Speaker 00

  Obviously, he was involved. Um, sorry, Matt.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  That's clean-cut, that's clean-cut Scott Payne.

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  Is it really?

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  That's a Polaroid picture, yeah.

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  Bro, oh my God, I just realized.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not-

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  Bro-

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  Dang, I do look like Matt Damon right there.

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  Bro, you look like Matt Damon right now.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  No way.

• 1:34:59Speaker 00

  I'm not even joking. Bring up, people must tell you this all the time.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  No, I used to get confused for Toby Keith all the time.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  Noob Keith, dude. You look like Matt Damon. Dude, that's crazy, bro.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  That picture does actually look like Matt Damon. I didn't never realize that.

• 1:35:14Speaker 00

  Matt Damon's gonna play you in your life story one day. That'd be pretty wild.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Pretty good.

• 1:35:18Speaker 00

  Okay, so you're infiltrated, so you, so you get into this group with the base, and, and, yeah, so, yeah, how do things escalate, and what are you learning once you get in? And you were telling me that before I interrupted. You go on?

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Um, so, I'm going in to where they're posting, because they're trying to recruit. And it would be like, you know, if you're interested, contact us at thebase underscore one at protonmail.com.

• 1:35:38Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Again, protonmail, thinking that it's fully encrypted. Uh, I think that was based out of Russia, I'm not sure. I can't remember right now. But, um, so, I, I, I start liking some of their stuff. They start responding back, and then I start emailing. So, I go through like a week to a week and a half of emailed questions. Pretty thorough. What can you bring to the table, this, that, and the other? And then I'm instructed to, I mean, my height, weight, ethnicity, all that stuff. Um, and then it says, uh, um, if you wanna read that. Oh, Geneva, Switzerland. All right, protonmail's in Switzerland.

• 1:36:12Speaker 00

  Okay, go on.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  All right. Um-

• 1:36:15Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  So, then I'm instructed to download the applic- the Wire app. It's called Wire. Uh, uh, operates a lot like WhatsApp. Um, so, I'm told to download it, reach out, and then on a Friday afternoon in July of 2019, I did like an hour and 15 minute panel interview. I couldn't see them, but I could hear like good four to five voices.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  Really? And it was, were you guys standing on two sides of a fence or something, or what was going on?

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Uh-uh, I was just on the app.

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  Oh, it was online?

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm, I'm just listening to them, and they're asking questions, and, like I said, I don't know if they're gonna tell me to cut my phone on, show myself, and so I'm, I was in a clu-

• 1:36:50Speaker 00

  I'm picturing some damn home improvement type shit, where you're standing over the fence or whatever.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  I jumped in my truck and drove, uh, to an abandoned parking lot, and I was making sure I had anything. I cleaned it, make sure there's nothing in there that says Scott Payne or anything like that.

• 1:37:05Speaker 00

  See anything, it's to know where you're at.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Just an old truck, you know? Um, so, I did that interview, and there was a lot of stuff, because the accelerationists, they, their, their bible is, their bible is basically a book called Siege. That book Siege was written by James Mason. He's a longtime white supremacist. He created Adam Waffen, uh, another accelerationist group. Um, but it's, it's essentially a bunch of interviews, but he idolizes like, you know, there's a lot of Satanism in there. He idolizes, uh, um, Charles Manson, things like that. But there's a lot of that. For instance, uh, accelerationists, let me say this. So, accelerationists, you know, you've seen the white supremacists that are out on the streets with picket signs

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  and yelling during pride rallies or whatever. That's not an accelerationist. The, per the Siege method, number one, that makes you a target. Number two, lets everybody know who you are.

• 1:38:01Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Number three, it does nothing for the cause. That's what they're saying. So, we're gonna do those guerrilla warfare hits.

• 1:38:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  That kinda thing.

• 1:38:08Speaker 00

  Bring it up again, Siege, just wanna see that real quick and, uh, cite it. Uh, Siege. Siege, The Collective Writings of James Mason, an anthology of essays by the neo-Nazi James Mason. After growing disillusioned with the mass movement approach of neo-Nazi movements, Mason began advocating for white revolution through terrorism.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Bam.

• 1:38:28Speaker 00

  Um, though the book was reviewed in several periodicals upon its release, and was praised and distributed by the influential white supremacist Tom Metzger, most neo-Nazis of the time either ignored or criticized the book. Um, uh, in 20, in the 2010s, the book found a new audience among online younger neo-Nazis due to the book's republic- republication by the neo-fascist forum Iron March.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:53Speaker 00

  In addition to its promotion of neo-Nazism, it lionizes serial killers, mass murderers, and Charles Manson. Um, Siege advocates neo-Nazi lone wolf terrorism.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Yep. So, so let's, let's, let me go off of that.

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  So, the base, I do that interview. Uh, they ask me all kinds of stuff. I answer best I can. Um, again, tennis, right? I don't know what they're throwing at me. I'm just gonna be ready, right? Um, and then he tells me, and I could tell who the leader is on there, because it's the deeper voice, but it was Rinaldo Nazara. After they've explained to me what accelerationist is, what the base believes, Siege culture, they gave me a 24-hour rest period. And they said, because now I know what they're about, I can decide whether I really wanna be a part of it, and they can talk about whether they want me to be a part of it.

• 1:39:44Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  And true to the word, 24 hours later on the Saturday, I got hit, ping, uh, something to the effect of, we'd like to have you in the organization. And I said, I'd be honored. So, they tell me, um, they go, where are you at? I said, East Tennessee. And they said, well, the closest cell, C E L L, because I know I got a country accent, C E L L, the closest cell to me was in North Georgia. Um, and then I was contacted by the cell leader. But, to parlay off of what that said, um, terrorism, Siege, uh, he, he said, forget all this grandstanding, go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks. So, a lot of people don't know this. Al Qaeda, translated to English, is the base.

• 1:40:25Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Al Qaeda's MO was three to five man cells all over the world, training for D-Day, waiting for the phone call. The base's MO, three to five man cells all over the world, training for what they call the Boogaloo.

• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  If they're still calling it that. I've been retired for five years, so, um-

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  And when you met them, are these guys, are they aggressive, like, males? What kind of energy did you feel overall when you met these guys?

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  It depends, but it wasn't like back in the hammer skin, uh, white supremacy, heavy metal, mosh pit crowd. Um, but, I don't wanna get too much on a tangent, but I will say this. When I'm instructing, uh, number one, we don't like to say the names of the, the mass shooters. We don't wanna give them any credit.

• 1:41:14Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  You know, I'll name every victim from Columbine.

• 1:41:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  I'll name every victim from Charleston. Every victim from Buffalo. Don't wanna say the kid's name, or the, or the shooter's name, right? But sometimes when I'm teaching undercover, I have to, because we're talking about a certain thing. But, um, what I'll say to people, because it sounded like you were like, hey, were these like Jack dudes or whatever, um, all shapes and sizes. But what I'd tell people, I said, don't underestimate. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine, before Columbine happened, what would you say? If I showed you a picture of the kid from the Aurora Theater shooting, orange and yellowish hair, what would you say before that happened? Charleston, bowl haircut, skinny kid, but they still killed a lot of people.

• 1:41:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  So, don't underestimate, because dead is dead.

• 1:41:58Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  We had a shooting here in Nashville.

• 1:42:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  My buddy, I'm, I'm buddies with the guy that had the pistol, the two shooters. Um, I, I met him through some other trainings, and I'd just seen him like, within a month of that shooting. Um, and, you know, just don't underestimate, you know? So, I meet him, and, and when I'm, they call me.

• 1:42:19Speaker 00

  And what'd you wear to meet him? Did you have to, I mean, how do you even pick out an outfit or whatever?

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  I wore like, maybe like some hiking-type pants, you know? I didn't show up all bikers, but- I go to meet them and they tell me, they instruct me, you come to Rome, Georgia. I want you to park here. I want you to take a picture of the statue downtown and then I want you to send it to me. And they're watching. I don't know how many, because at that point, we knew we were going to meet somebody who called themselves TMB. I didn't know he was bringing a guy named Pestilence with him. I didn't know, we just, they're trying to cover me. And I met the case team that I, even though we talked on the phone, I'd never met them before. So I drive down to Rome, Georgia, uh, because now I'm being

• 1:42:58Speaker 00

  This is crazy.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  I know, because now I'm being, now I'm being invited to meet them for a face-to-face vet. I like the vetting in real life, because I passed the other one. I passed the, I passed the emails, I passed the interview panel. Now I gotta pass a face-to-face meeting. And when I met the case team, again, we don't know really who we're meeting or where we're going. We got an inkling, I think, uh, but I know we didn't know everybody in the group. We did not at all. Um, and

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  the weather was bad, so it's like, I don't know, can you get any kind of aerial surveillance? Not when it's, not when it's raining and stuff like that.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  And it's hard to light a cross in the rain too, so you're not really gonna see.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Well, the, okay, accelerators don't do the cross

• 1:43:35Speaker 00

  Got it, my bad.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Lightings. The KKK does.

• 1:43:37Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Um, so these guys are hiding. They're all wearing flecked on camo because the flecked on pattern is German. They're neo Nazis, so they wear nothing but the German pattern. That does not mean if you have flecked on that you're white supremacists.

• 1:43:51Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  It just means that that's what they wear.

• 1:43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  So I, I pull up, uh, uh, meet the case team and they're like, hey, we want to slap a GPS tracker on my truck just in case. And I'm like, yeah, so I see

• 1:44:00Speaker 00

  Your squad says that.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's my team, my cover team. And, because, let me explain it this way. I was assigned to Knoxville, so I'm a, I'm an FBI agent in Knoxville.

• 1:44:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  But because the targets lived in Georgia.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Well, now you've got Atlanta field office and the Rome RA, which is the satellite office out of, so that's who's gonna be working that, those targets, right? So I go down there to meet that cover team or case team and we talk about some stuff. I make some phone calls. And I see them kind of go under the back driver's side quarter panels. I don't know where they put it, but I know it's somewhere up in there. I pull up, I can't find a parking spot. I'm going back and forth on wire. Hey, man, I'm here. Okay, look, I found a spot, but it's behind a coffee shop. I'm in a, I think I was in a, a white Ford or something. I can't remember what truck I was driving on that trip, but give them the description of the truck and then they go, okay, I see you. Uh, and I see them come walking. So what comes walking up is about a 21-year-old and soon to be 21 and a 19-year-old kid.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  TMB, uh, is Luke Ling. He's about 6'2", maybe 220, 225, but kind of frumpy. Um, and then Pestilence is, uh, Jacob and he is kind of more, uh, not goth, but more like black metal. But he's got BDUs bloused into his eight-inch tactical boots and then a tank top of some black metal band, you know? Uh, shaved around the sides.

• 1:45:22Speaker 00

  Probably Guar, one of those, Instant Pussy, one of those ones?

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  No, you, I went to, no, I'm talking like, we're, we're gonna talk like, probably like, uh, Hell Witch, Sabot, uh, Satanic Goat Ritual, those kind of bands, you know?

• 1:45:35Speaker 00

  That kind of shit, yeah.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and all it is, if you've ever been to a concert like that, it's like, it's just constant. Wada, wada, wada, wada, wada, wada, wada, wada.

• 1:45:42Speaker 00

  It's a lot of Home Depot noise.

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like what I've seen played when they're trying to break people at Guantanamo Bay. That's what they're playing in the background.

• 1:45:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  Uh, with flashing lights and stuff. Or like the accountant, like the accountant, you know, like Ben Affleck when he's in there, cuts it on, yeah. Um, so they come walking up and, uh, you know, it's the first meet, so clearly I'm clean, because I don't know what they're gonna, I mean, if they're doing their wherewithal, they're gonna check me, right?

• 1:46:08Speaker 00

  How many times in your head do you go, okay, is there nothing, like, am I missing anything? Like, that would have to be

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  A lot. You know, and like I'll self-check. I may even have somebody check me.

• 1:46:17Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  I'm, I may clean my truck, but I mean, hey, search my truck.

• 1:46:21Speaker 00

  Is there anything on here that would let you know anything about me?

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, what if you just got dry cleaning and then your, and your tag's in there, you know?

• 1:46:28Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Or, or prescription medicine and it's in your real name, you know?

• 1:46:32Speaker 00

  So they're walking up there, you guys are behind the coffee shop.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yep. And he comes up and he says, he, he, you know, I'm like, hey, um, I came in as White Warrior ADA. I'm like, hey, I'm, I'm White Warrior. He's like, I'm TMB, it's Pestilence. I'm like, cool, little niceties, and then I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. I said, okay, I put it on airplane mode and he pulls out this thing that looks like the Geiger counter, man. It had like a triangle card on it. It was big, all kinds of lights and stuff on it. I'm like, what the heck is that? So he wanders me, nothing, I'm cool. He starts wandering the inside of the truck and I'm like, all right. As he's walking down the side of the truck, that thing starts going nuts. It's getting louder and louder and lights are going off on it. And I'm like, oh no, it's picking up the GPS tracker. And he's walking, he gets right to the back fender. And I'm like, I, I've already eased my right leg back. I'm starting to get in that stance because I'm like, it's getting ready to go.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  And I'm, because who knows what's gonna happen right now.

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know if they're armed or not. I'm gonna assume they are. Um,

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  and right when it was, it was going, it's going nuts, Pestilence says, you think it could be the power lines? Because where we were was a steep hill and there were power lines right there. So he walks over and it, that thing goes nuts. What I found out is that thing picks up, it's a $500 piece of equipment in 2019. Uh, $500 piece of equipment that picks up everything. Every airwave there is wifi, Bluetooth, RF, whatever, and it'll color, it'll color code in different sounds, yeah.

• 1:47:54Speaker 00

  Somebody whispering loud.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Cellular, yeah, whatever, yeah. So I, I live to fight another day. He said, he said, hey, follow us to another place. So at that point, I'm calling the case team and I'm like, you need to shut the tracker off. I'm like, you need to shut it off. And they're like, whoa, we're not sure if we can shut it off remotely. And I'm like, well, you need to try. And they're like, well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on. I said, what I'm telling you is, whatever he's got

• 1:48:16Speaker 00

  Shut it off.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Is finding it. And if you don't shut it off, it's gonna be a quick undercover.

• 1:48:20Speaker 00

  And it should be your choice.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, they were, they were saying technically, like they were saying, can you cut it off from a remote? And if you did, could we get it back on? And I'm getting the concern, you don't want to lose me, but I'm like, hey. So luckily

• 1:48:33Speaker 00

  I don't want to lose me either.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  I know, right? Luckily they got it off and I pulled into the parking lot of an abandoned concrete plant. And I'm like, pull in, I'm like, looking up to the, I'm like, that's funny. Uh, how many people have I seen die in a movie at an empty concrete plant? But, uh, they wandered me and it didn't go, they wandered the truck and it didn't go off. And I'm like, cool. So then I go and that's when I started meeting everybody. And then as the months went on, you would go and train, um,

• 1:48:58Speaker 00

  Have you ever played ball together or anything? Or would like, would you guys do any social excursions, field trips or anything like that?

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  All shooting, all training.

• 1:49:04Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, uh, because Luke's dad had a hundred acre property in Rome, Georgia.

• 1:49:11Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  And, uh, that's where we did a lot of our training. That cell and the Maryland cell would come down and train. And then at one point, we started finding all kinds of things like, uh, you talked about sacrifices, what gets me into it. So I'll, I'll speed up to that. During, during the case, you start identifying more and more people. And those people are, some of them are outside of the United States, so our world working partners are opening cases on them. Some of them are in all kinds of states in the US, but as I explained before, that means that maybe Seattle is FBI is opening a case on the person that's in their AOR. Maybe Detroit's opening cases, Georgia's opening multiple cases, Alabama's opening, it just goes. Uh, because at any given time, there was, there was a good 50-something people in the base.

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  Um, but the base was more like an umbrella group because every member that I knew that was in the base, they were also a part of another white supremacy group, whether it be Adam Waffen or Green Brigade or, or, uh, uh, man, was it Sun, Sunning? I can't remember the name of it right now. Um, but, so you were a member of another group as well, but we did training. And that first weekend, and remember, I'm a firearms instructor certified at the FBI. I was the lead tactical instructor for my division. And a 19-year-old kid led carbine and it led, led shooting and tactics. He led the training and it was good. It wasn't bad.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  And I'm, I'm thinking, man, how did you learn? Did you, I mean, you're not, you didn't run the military. You're too young to be getting out to learn this. He said, no, it was, I think it was mainly gaming and then his dad took him to, um, a range. But he worked on it, you know, and, uh, I was glad that they were safe with their weapons, because I didn't know who, you know, what their shooting was. I was standing back when we started. I was glad that they were good and safe, but I was also scared, because if they were planning on doing something bad, they were pretty, uh, good.

• 1:51:10Speaker 00

  Oh, I'd be, I'd be spooked, man.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  So one of the big things, like with undercover, you go in there, you've got enough to go in. It's all been approved. There's a, we've got the reporting and, and people are predicated, so we're going in. But do you have enough to charge them? Well, in instances like this, you've been spewing a lot of hate online. You've been saying a lot of crazy stuff, but is what you're doing just First Amendment protected? Or are you actually planning on doing something bad? So sometimes we go in and you might just be in there for six months trying to figure out if they're doing, I've been in cases for five, six months and I come back to the team and go, they're not doing anything illegal, man. It's all First Amendment protected. And we're just spinning our wheels at this point, you know?

• 1:51:52Speaker 00

  And when did that turn for the base? When did that kind of?

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  So I got, we were already talking about a bunch of stuff and I was starting to get the DM conversations going on where it's more private, uh, direct messaging for those that don't know.

• 1:52:05Speaker 00

  And what is your wife thinking when you get home on the weekends and shit and you got like a lot more white laundry or whatever?

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  No dark stuff?

• 1:52:13Speaker 00

  Like a shiitake?

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  Or I come home smelling like diesel fuel from the close clan? They call it clan cologne because you can't stand that cross up without the diesel fuel pouring all over you. Unless somebody was holding an umbrella over you, I guess.

• 1:52:23Speaker 00

  Oh damn.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:25Speaker 00

  But okay, so take us back in?

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  So at one point, there's a, uh, there's somebody that gets doxxed. And, and for those that don't know what doxxing is, basically outing you, right? And the far left is very, very good at it. They're really good at doxxing you, showing up to protest at your kid's school, at your business, at your home, your parents, whatever. Um, and the right, far right, from what I experienced, can't stand that. Um, because they feel like they're losing their life and their identity. That's why they're huge on anonymity. So all these pictures you see, if you pull up the base stuff, um, where the BBC and the Guardian was blasting all this stuff. I mean, I'm there, but we're wearing balaclavas. Um, that one right, I'll show you one, it was me. Uh, yeah, that's me right there.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  I'm on the far right.

• 1:53:13Speaker 00

  You're in that group photo?

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  And who took the pictures? Did you guys go to a place?

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  No, no, no, just one of the guy, one of the guys that didn't suit up. Um, because you're always trying to recruit.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  Well, how was recruiting going overall, did you feel like?

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean ebbs and flows. You get people coming in and then you vet them and then, and then some people might drop. Some people might get doxxed. So, uh, so.

• 1:53:34Speaker 00

  Any women in it?

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  No, none. Um, which was something I kinda, uh, there was a lot of, there was a lot of the guys that did not have partners.

• 1:53:44Speaker 00

  Oh, you'd have more men in it if you had more women in it.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they don't have partners. So think about this, we were talking earlier about radicalization online. Pitcher, for these cases, I'm just gonna say it's a young white guy. Young white man who's probably an outcast. He's most definitely been bullied, uh, can't get a date and they're just hating. So then you go on in these groups at night and this works on the other side too. Far left, black separatists, radical jihad, kinda same thing. You're looking for somebody that's, um, uh, like minded individual.

• 1:54:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  And, and that's how they start getting you.

• 1:54:20Speaker 00

  Um. Do you think that the media ostracizes white people? Do you feel like it's?

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Oh boy, I'm not answering that.

• 1:54:28Speaker 00

  Is that a tougher ques- is that a bad?

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  No, that should probably give you my answer.

• 1:54:32Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  No, it depends.

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  I don't, look, you don't have to, I, I was just thinking about it like, you know, I feel like there's a lot of like, I don't know. It's a tough one, it's a tough question.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm white, so what am I supposed to say? I mean.

• 1:54:44Speaker 00

  Good point.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Have I, am I privileged? Am I not privileged? Did I get stuff for free or did I have to bust my ass to get it? So I don't, I just try not to answer that.

• 1:54:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  I mean, I know personally what I've had to do to be where I'm at.

• 1:54:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point, man.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Somebody else might not believe that.

• 1:54:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  And it's in the eye of the beholder, no matter what I say. I can talk till I'm blue in the face. If you don't believe me, then that's it.

• 1:55:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll think about it another time.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  But pitcher, you're in there, you're lonely and you're looking for, do you wanna belong? You wanna belong? It's, it's human nature to wanna belong.

• 1:55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, and to wanna feel a part of something to feel like.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Brotherhood, same thing, same thing with gangs, same things with cults, biker clubs, it's a brotherhood, your brother. You know, you're, now you're, now you're one of us.

• 1:55:25Speaker 00

  Oh dude, there was not like when you were growing up, just having your friends. It's like going to the gym with a friend to go lift with. Anything that gives you some connection?

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:34Speaker 00

  Becomes a huge part of your life.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you get that and that, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that. Because another way to describe what I was describing is isolation.

• 1:55:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, it's.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  And if you're a believer, when you get isolated, oh, let's look at the jungle, Africa. If you're a zebra that gets isolated, you're a lot easier to pick off.

• 1:55:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Just saying.

• 1:55:54Speaker 00

  Undeniably.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:55Speaker 00

  Isolation is for the devil, man.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:57Speaker 00

  I believe that.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:58Speaker 00

  You know, it's like, even though like there's things even in my own life, it's like, man, I don't wanna go, I don't wanna do that. That is, that is not the best part to me talking or communicating to me.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with you on that.

• 1:56:09Speaker 00

  Anyway, carry on.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  So this guy, uh, a guy gets doxxed, he's a member in South Africa. Um, and he gets doxxed. And then at that point, one of the members in the base is like, how many of our brothers do we have to watch fall before we do something? And he called for operational, Operation Crystal Knot, which was an actual operation in World War Two. Essentially, uh, it, what they did is if you were not white, you were Jewish, you know, anti fascist, whatever. Uh, they would go down and smash your windows of your business, slice the tires on your car, set stuff on fire. So that's what he was calling for. And some members did do it. They went out and, uh, tagged some synagogues with some, uh, you know, hate symbols. Um, I'm trying to remember if anybody set anything on fire or not.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  I remember being called for slashing tires. But, so now we're starting to get a little bit more, people are actually doing overt acts and furtherance of hate, right? Even though, even though it's just painting, and I mean, but you know, like I've had some people say, hey man, I mean, they just painted a synagogue, you know? I mean, to be looking at this many years for, for a hate crime or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but what if you were one of those Jewish people that went to that synagogue? And now you, every time you go there, you're scared to death because you've seen active shooter, you've seen mass shooter events.

• 1:57:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Tree of Life, uh, in, in Pittsburgh, you know? And, and I know a lot of those people now because I've, I've helped out with eradicate hate. Um, and eradicate hate's based out of Pittsburgh. And I've actually met and I'm friends with, um, family members of the people that were murdered at Tree of Life, so.

• 1:57:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, my friend Michael the other day was talking about, uh, the shooting that had happened in Australia.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  New Zealand.

• 1:57:51Speaker 00

  No, I think it was in Bondi.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  Okay, I was thinking of the New Zealand Christ Church.

• 1:57:55Speaker 00

  No, I think it was in Bondi Beach. Um.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  Oh, there we go.

• 1:57:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, this was in December.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad to say that these shootings happen more and more often and I just, they start blending in my head.

• 1:58:07Speaker 00

  Which shootings do you mean, just overall?

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  I mean, just like active shooter events.

• 1:58:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  I do remember that. That was the Sikh temple or something they shot up.

• 1:58:17Speaker 00

  You'd feel like people, um, I don't know. Evil's always gonna be around, you know?

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Well, you know, a lot of interviews.

• 1:58:25Speaker 00

  A lot of this of new age stuff, like say a lot of like, um, if there's anti Semitic, if it's Jewish specific hate? Do you think a lot of that is coming from, um, like people who have, or, or do you know actually if a lot of it's coming from like, people who have Nazi ideology from like, like Hitler Nazi ideology? Or is it people that are having reactions to, um, some of Israel's tactics and like their government's tactics?

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  It's gonna be both because if you're pro, if, I gotta figure out, I wanna word it right. Cause I don't want anybody to say, you're saying all pro Palestine people or no. But if you're on that, that extreme side, that's pro Palestine over Israel, well, a lot of those people aren't white. So you couldn't be identifying with Hitler because Hitler's more of the white supremacy, but it's definitely anti Semitic.

• 1:59:15Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, hold on a second.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  They're hating the Jews too.

• 1:59:18Speaker 00

  Do you think that's an extremist view that people are pro Palestine?

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:59:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Uh, but if you were going to go, again, if you're gonna go to extreme, are you gonna be happy that people are being slaughtered and murdered and raped and tortured? You know, and you're anti Semitic, um, then you're more, probably more that extremism side.

• 1:59:36Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  But you were asking me if it was like, i- is it Hitler driven or is it pro Palestine or anti Israel driven?

• 1:59:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, anti Israel government driven, like, or yeah, so just to be super clear. Yeah, man, I think it's just scary. Like I have Jewish friends that have been like, who, who have spoken out about like, just like being in fear and like, they're like.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  Going to class, you know? And I'm, I'm like, I don't, I mean, heck, Hitler wasn't even solid white. I think he, I mean, you can pull it out, I think he, it was determined that he had some Jewish in his blood.

• 2:00:07Speaker 00

  And then there's probably other ethnicities who are scared of our relationship with Israel and what could happen to them in the future. I get scared sometimes if I, I think with the surveillance state now, I feel like everybody's getting scared.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  I know. And now, now the big, the big, I think the fresh topic right now on surveillance is those flock cameras.

• 2:00:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  It's like, I.

• 2:00:26Speaker 00

  A lot of my black friends are starting to, are starting to fuck them up.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not hating on that. I'm not saying do it, I'm just, I'm just saying, man.

• 2:00:34Speaker 00

  The block verse flock, bro. That's where I'm at, dude.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  You see a flock camera on a cul-de-sac, one cul-de-sac, why do you need a flock camera?

• 2:00:41Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  Were you, are you reading plates?

• 2:00:43Speaker 00

  What's going on?

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  Or does it pick up phone stuff? And it's a third party, here's my concern, third party company that's not law enforcement.

• 2:00:49Speaker 00

  I agree, what are we doing?

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  So what oversight do you have? Do you have policies stopping? I mean, we've got a constitution. That is our, that's our law, that's our bible. If you, which it goes back to, you know, you're talking about the border and stuff. Listen, if I'm a law enforcement officer, number one, I'm a peace officer.

• 2:01:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  Most of the cars used to say, to protect and serve, that's your job. You're a shepherd, you should be. You're protecting the sheep.

• 2:01:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  From the wolves. That's, I mean, I'm not trying to be all, you know, Jack Nicholson on the wall and be, uh.

• 2:01:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  Holier than now, it's just, my job is to enforce the law. So I used to tell people, I'm like, well, don't hate me because I'm enforcing law. There's been so many people I've arrested or sat down at a table with after they've been arrested. And I'll say, man, you know, I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm saying you're an adult and you made the choice to break the law and you got caught. So here we are. I'm not hating.

• 2:01:44Speaker 00

  Did you ever get so deep and tangled during like a, um, during, um, like a sting or during an operation or during an undercover? Where at the end you were like, damn, this is gonna be a long day when this bust happens.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause it's gonna bother you. Yeah.

• 2:01:58Speaker 00

  So, and I, and I'm kinda taking us off, uh, off a base, or, I'm, I'm kinda taking us, yeah, off a base a little bit.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  Off a base.

• 2:02:04Speaker 00

  Let's get back, um, so there was the doxxing going on.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Yep. So they did, some people tagged some stuff. And also during that time, we had a base member who went out in Canada, he was Canadian. And he went and put flyers up to try to recruit. And then somebody answered the recruitment. They had to go through the emails like I did, they had to go through a, uh, interview panel like I did, uh, on audio, on wire. And then they went and had the face to face meet. So this guy that got recruited, one of our members who ended up being called Punished Snake, his name was Pat Matthews.

• 2:02:38Speaker 00

  Punished Snake?

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Pat Matthews, uh, he changed his name several times, but he was, I think it's the Canadian version of our National Guard kinda, but he was being, he was a military. He was being trained, um, and he's the guy. So we get a new member coming in, hey, welcome new member, blah, blah, blah, from Canada. Think his name was Mark or something. Uh, and he's in the, he's in the main chat group for about a week, maybe two weeks. I don't think, definitely, I don't think it was more than two weeks.

• 2:03:08Speaker 00

  And are you in the chat group every day kinda?

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, imagine if I wasn't. So I work my job as an FBI agent, I go home, I might have dinner with my family and then I'm back out on the porch, you know, answering stuff. Or I'm checking in during the day.

• 2:03:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  But they also knew I was a.

• 2:03:22Speaker 00

  What's up fellas, everybody still racist or whatever, like shit like that?

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  You wanna go commit some hate crimes?

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  But uh, it's so, so this Canadian, this, he meets this guy, this guy gets into the group and after about a week or so, he, he comes out and it turns out that it was a journalist for a, uh, paper. He's gay? No, no, it's, he's a, uh, I guess these days, that's probably what the people are thinking. He, he was a journalist for a newspaper up there. He went and met Pat on his own and after about a week or two, they were like, hey, this is too deep. You pull the chocks, write it, write it. So this article comes out and it's basically doxing Pat. So Pat, the, they come, the R M's, uh, uh, Royal Canadian Ma- Mounted Police, uh, R C M P comes to his house, takes his guns.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  He's booted from the military thing. His parents now hate him. I think he lost his job and all of a sudden he disappears. Wow. His truck is found at the border, the border of Ca- Canada and, and the United States. So we're pretty sure he's here, but we don't know where. Right. Eventually we find him and he ended up being down at my cell. He was, he was renting out one of the horse stalls under the barn, uh, under the, the residence, uh, on that hundred acre property. So I got to go. Sleeping there? Yeah. So I got to go spend a lot of time down there training and it just got crazier and crazier, man. It was like. And what kind of stuff were they saying or, or like, like how? Everything's preparing for the, preparing for the boogaloo, building your kit.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot of these kids didn't even have, I say kids, I mean, I, I was 48. I lied and said I was 44 at the time. Um, because literally there was like one other 40 something, I, I think Nazara was 40 something. So the leader was 40 something. There was one other dude that was in his 40s. There might've been two 30 somethings and everything else was 20s and teens. Wow. Um, a lot of these, uh, these kids, they didn't have a job. They didn't have a car. They had to borrow a car to come to the training. But they were wearing cryo precision plate carriers, same thing FBI SWAT team wears. Got it. They're where, they're building their kit up, their pistols, their, their, uh, their semi-automatic rifles, their ARs or their AKs. And, uh, and we're coming out and training, man. Wow.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Moving drills and, you know, it may not be the best, but still, I mean, I was looking at a lot of them going, holy crap, man. If they wanted to take on some, if they wanted to do something, they, they're probably going to get the drop on a lot of people. Right. You know? That's scary dude. It's so, it's fascinating to think that that goes on. So once we found Pat, um, and we had him locked down. So we're like, okay, we feel like we're in control of the situation. Cause we were finding out more and more stuff. Uh, are they plotting something or they're not? There was inklings of things being whispered and said, and we're as a case team and an undercover, all the case teams. I mean, at one point we had a hundred people on a call once a month. That's how many case teams there were in the United States working this stuff.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  Um, and it was just kinda like, did they mean that? Did they not mean that? You're trying to find out. Are you gonna do something bad or you're not? Yeah. Are you just talking trash, first amendment protected? And then you're go, you're waiting for the D day and then it's perch. Yeah. You know? Um, so we get this all started because you asked about the sacrifice thing. So a lot of these guys believed in, uh, the North Norse, Norse pantheon. So they were claiming pagan, but they're white supremacists. They're not true pagans. Got it. They're white supremacists and we've already had a couple of blots, B L O T. That is the ceremony, the worship ceremony. Did you ever go to those? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd already been. Pretty cool.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I, I had to participate. I had to mirror. So I would pray to a god. There were some that we had that had some people leading it. That was, uh, really, uh, they were, some of them were actually priests in the Asatru family. Just doing what side jobs or whatever? No, no, no, no. Uh, I'm just meaning they've, they've obtained the rank to basically be a preacher. They are, they're, they're a priest and they can run a block. Um, so I'd attended some and it might be in the middle of the summer and you go down there and you paint runes on your chest and we do the whole ceremony. And they'd be like, uh, uh, take like a piece of wood and carve, carve, uh, some runes in it, which were pagan. R U N E S? Yeah.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then it would be, uh, then, but then there would be like swastikas and white supremacy stuff on there too. And then you would, you would, you would, you would cut yourself and bleed on the wood. And then we set the wood on fire and pray to our gods until the wood stopped burning. So I was getting in closer. Yeah. And then, and then it was just going so fast. Uh, Theo, I'll tell you. You ever wake up believing it? No, no, not this. No, no. I mean, some of these cats were cats. Some of these guys were saying that Hitler's still alive and hollow earth. And he's hanging out with 15 foot giant white dudes with red beards and they're just waiting to come back. And I'm like, for what? Yeah, that's crazy.

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  I mean, come on back. If you're saying we need to fight right now, what are they, what's Hitler waiting on?

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Were they milling around? Yeah, come on, you know? Unless he's waiting for NIL money or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I'm switching teams. Somebody give him a deal probably. Um, but so we get to this point and it's Halloween of 2019. And we're gonna have a basically what people refer to as a hate camp. We're gonna be there training and training. I did some hand-to-hand combat training there. We'd already started doing firearms, but that, that, that Halloween night was a Thursday night. And, uh, in 2019. So we have a few drinks. I go back to my, uh, I go back to my truck. I'm actually charging my phone up because the battery's dying. You know how it is when you go from like sleet, ice freezing cold?

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  And you hop in that warm vehicle and you kind of just defrost and then you nod off a little bit. I nodded off a little bit. Um, and I wake up to the pounding on my door because I was already pale horse by this time. Um, I switched my code name. Um, and, and they were like, pale horse, pale horse, wake up, wake up. I'm like, man, what's going on? And they're like, you gotta see this. You're not gonna believe it. I come out and they go, hey, remember us talking about sacrificing, uh, a goat? And I'm like vaguely, and they're like, we got one. And I'm like, oh. They went, I mean, not far down the road. Yeah. To a guy who had three and turns out that he came out because he heard them. They were armed. They had their flecked tarn camo on with the balaclavas over their face. I mean, it's a wonder nobody can get shot right there.

• 2:09:49Speaker 01

  But they steal the goat or a ram. I don't know that, I mean, I've asked people the difference. It was big. It had horns. I don't know if it was a goat or a ram. But they, uh, I walk up and they're like, uh, had it in the back of the truck. And one of the members who went by, um, Dema, Dema says, man, this goat's shitting all over the truck. And I said, well, hell, I would be too. If a bunch of Neanderthals were flecked tarn and balaclavas just jerking me out of the backyard at gunpoint. I'm like, back out, you know? And, uh, and then Eisen was gonna be running the blot on this one. And I see him over there and he's petting the goat and he's, uh, it looks like he's showing it love and stuff. And I walked up and I said, hey, man, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? He says, hey, pale horse, don't let her hear the goat. Eisen was the guy's name?

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was his code name. His real name was William Billbro. Oh, I was gonna say, cause Eisen sounds like a Jewish name. It seems like a weird name to have. I think, I think it was actually a rune. I can't remember what Eisen stands for, but anyway. Eisen is German and Ashkenazi, you a surname meaning iron. There you go, Eisen. Okay, go on, sorry. So, uh, I didn't know that. See, I should've looked that up. I spent seven months with the guy. Well, shit. But, uh, I'd be like, oh, iron, I got it. Um, so he says, hey, don't let the goat hear you say that. And I'm like, okay. He's like, this goat, we're showing this goat love. We're gonna sacrifice it to start the wild hunt. And it's going to Valhalla. It's gonna be with Odin tonight. This is a good thing for the goat.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  No negative energy basically. And don't let the other people hear you with negative energy. I said, got it? Push that beach ball down. Never think of it again, you know, underwater. Let's go push it down. So I walk over to, uh, oh, let me say this. The wild hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and other gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smackdown to all their enemies. Okay. But in the version of the white supremacy, he's saying that this sacrifice is gonna start the wild hunt for us to cleanse the world of darkness. So if you're anti-fash and you are, uh, non-white, uh, when the, when boogaloo happens, they're saying, what they were saying is if you are not fascist, you are automatically anti-fascist and the penalty is death.

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  I mean, these dudes would talk about shooting their own dads. Like I'd have to kill my dad if he, if he doesn't, if he doesn't. Right. Switch to be fascist. I'm, I'm gonna have to kill my dad. Wow. And then one would be like, I'd cry myself to sleep if I did. Another would be like, well, I could never kill my parents. So you guys are way ahead of me. So you're hearing all this crazy stuff and you're hearing, you're hearing Pat down under the, uh, barn saying, I'm a ghost. My life is over. I don't exist anymore. Cause that's the guy that got, uh, doxed. Doxed out of Canada. And so, uh, can't y'all bust the group at this point or no? We could, but there's, there's, uh, that's the, I'm gonna tell you, in my opinion, as a case agent on long-term cases and as an undercover, that's the hardest decision.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  To decide when, do we have enough or oh, this new guy just came in, one more buy and we can get, you know, it's, it's tough. Cause at what point are you just like playing house or whatever it almost seems like, or White House? Right, but what would we charge them with other than assisting getting an undocumented alien in right now? Right? Now what charges are you gonna come up with? Cause there's no federal domestic terrorism charge. Okay. There are federal international terrorism charges, but there's not for domestic terrorism. Got it. Um, so I, I'm, I'm hearing all this crazy stuff. Like, I mean, we can form, everybody's been doxed. We can have like a staging location or, or a, uh, you know, clubhouse somewhere where it's all us and we're all ghosts and we just go out and murder. I mean, it's talking about laying out like a homeless person, learning the pattern of the lefty journalist. And then just popping them in the back of the head with a 38 one day and just walk off.

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  That's gorilla, that kind of small hit kind of thing. So we've got them and then we get to that Halloween weekend. So they tell me they got the goat and I go to my, my listening device and I'm like, hey, talking to the case and I'm like, if you can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting a goat down here and slaughter this animal. I'm racking my brain, trying to think if there's anything. I'm definitely not seeing anything federal in my head. And, and I'm, I basically just tossed it to them. Do you want me to shut this thing down or you want me to just drive off, come up with a ruse and kind of drive off? I said, if you want me to, you need to let me know. And I waited and I stared at, stared at my device and I waited and I waited, waited for my phone to ring. I waited, waited, nothing. And I went, okay, I guess I'm heading down in the woods.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  So we head down, we carry the goat down. It's probably about 12 of us there and Eisen. Is the goat sleeping or it's loud? No, no, we're walking it down, but, you know, yeah. So we get down there and, uh. Just doing goat shit. Yeah, doing goat shit. Yeah. So we get down there to what was referred to as a holy spot. The torches are lit. Eisen leads the blot, talks about, hey, we're gonna, uh, sacrifice this goat to Odin. It's gonna go be with the elves and everything. And is he, is it pretty organized or is the guy like reading notes off of his phone and shit?

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  No, he wasn't the best. Now that, the other guy I told you about when we were in the, in the summer, I think he was a legit Asatru. Got it. Priest. And I mean, it was, it was, it was led very well. This one was a little choppy, you know? Yeah, that's crazy. You know, but. But they're believing it. They're believing it, right? So then, then, uh, he has like a, it's bigger than a machete, but it's not quite a sword. If, from what I remember. We're all around the goat. He's already given the whole speech about the wild hunt and we're gonna start killing all the anti-fascist and non-whites. Um, because if everybody's white, that'll definitely save, that'll, that'll solve the problem. No, it won't. No, it won't. You know, it's still gonna be fighting. It's still gonna be cheating.

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. What are we talking about here? But, uh, so I end up, we're all in a circle around the goat and somehow I ended up at the back legs. And he's already given the speech and now he's got this blade and he's, he's like, he's bringing it back with his hands and he's coming down. Practice swing, practice swing, taking a breath. You hear somebody say, just do it, you know? And he comes down and I'm holding the back of that goat. He comes down with everything he's got and all I heard was thunk. But I don't think it broke a single hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or the back strap of the goat was so strong. And for that second, I was like, and that split second in my mind, I'm like, oh, this is gonna be bad. It's gonna get bloody. Um, cause I'm holding it and yeah, and then you hear, it may take two swings. Do it again. You know, all this yelling.

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  And then, uh, somebody says, has anybody got a gun? I think it was Pestilence. Does anybody have a pistol? And we, the rule was, is we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there, but the one guy zoomed at, says, I got mine. We, I mean, me and Luke, TMB, both were looking at going, what? This is like the least qualified guy to be holding a weapon. This dude's been up for like two days straight on Adderall. He worked third shift in Austin, Texas and drove straight to Rome, Georgia. And I'm like, and not coordinated. I mean, gun stuff. I'm, I was like, oh my goodness, man. You're the last person down here.

• 2:16:42Speaker 00

  What the heck dude?

• 2:16:44Speaker 01

  He hands the pistol over, Luke takes it from him.

• 2:16:47Speaker 00

  This is like Assassin's Creed.

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. So he takes, uh, he takes the weapon, hands it to Eisen. Eisen chambers around, kind of points towards the goat and then turns completely away to pull the trigger. And I just wanted to instruct him. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 2:17:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:01Speaker 01

  He's like, what? And I go, man, look at what you're shooting at, bro. We're all in a circle on our knees, man. He's like, oh, okay. I know, man.

• 2:17:09Speaker 00

  I feel like this is a Larry David sketch, dude.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  I mean, part of you and the comical, comical side, you're like, I'll let him go ahead and shoot. I'm over here, you know? He's aiming that way. I see he takes out, you know? Uh, but yeah, so he puts one right in his head and then it goes down and it twitches for a while. And I, I coax him to, uh, I said, man, why don't you go ahead and put another round in it? Cause it was debate of, is it after death twitches or is it still alive? I said, just go ahead and put it in. I said, for the sake of the goat, cause you want it to show up happy, right? It's going, I mean, it's a good thing. I'm, I'm using his words against him.

• 2:17:41Speaker 00

  Right, for sure. Let it get there quick.

• 2:17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, I thought, yeah, so he, he did it and then you could hear somebody say, now it's definitely dead. Oh, are we done? No. Now they slice the throat of the goat, fill up a cup full of blood. Yeah. And we're all in a circle and.

• 2:17:55Speaker 00

  And is it warm out or cold out?

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  It is chill. It's cold. It's cold. Yeah. It's cold. Cause it, the, whatever happened at Halloween in 2019, it had been like sixties or seventies and that day a cold front came, it dropped to like 10. So we're down there and, uh, he, um,

• 2:18:14Speaker 01

  they slice it, they fill the cup up with blood. Everybody's still in the circle except me. I'm holding the flashlight because Eisen decided to bring i- acid to help with the spiritual journey.

• 2:18:24Speaker 00

  LSD?

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Had to cheat, had to cheat. So.

• 2:18:28Speaker 00

  Y'all all took a hit or what?

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. Uh, and that was funny cause they were like, one of the guys was like, hey, I'm a, I'm a, I don't know how to reword it. I'm a very experienced, highly experienced psychedelic or something. I'm a professional psychedelic. He goes, we think you'd really like this pale horse. I said, let me tell you something. You have no idea what's in my brain. You have no idea what I've done on this planet in my lifetime. I don't do that stuff. If somebody slips one on me and I go on a bad trip, every single one of you are going with me.

• 2:18:57Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  You know, that's the only thing I do.

• 2:18:59Speaker 00

  That's a good call. Yes. I'm gonna use that.

• 2:19:01Speaker 01

  And then one guy was like, he was like, yeah, don't do it. Don't put nothing in pale horse's drink. But I went around and I was shining and he would tear a tab, put it under your tongue, chase it with the blood. Now you're sign, now, now we're signifying the sacrifice. We're closing the deal here.

• 2:19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now you're a sick app.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So now it gets to me and I'm one of the last ones. Well, by the time it gets to me, the, I look down and it is clotted. It is chunky and I'm looking at it going, man, I really don't want to drink this, man. You know, I'm like,

• 2:19:28Speaker 01

  but I think Pestilence or I don't know if he said it or I, I thought of it, but I just stuck two fingers deep into the blood, pulled out my fingers and sucked the blood off my fingers.

• 2:19:38Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  And, uh, and luckily I'd carried a beer down there and I chased it with that.

• 2:19:43Speaker 00

  What kind of beer was it?

• 2:19:44Speaker 01

  Uh, that night it might've been Bud Light. Before the controversy.

• 2:19:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, I think.

• 2:19:51Speaker 01

  No, it's a, I think it was a Bud Light, but, uh, I, uh, if it wasn't a Bud Light, it was a Yingling Lager, which is what I like.

• 2:19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's nice. Damn, brothers. Y'all down there eating blood and fricking doing LSD. I mean, what in the fuck is going on?

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  I know, right? So we're supposed to get up the next day and train. Uh, training was shot.

• 2:20:10Speaker 00

  What?

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  Cause only like, only like two or three people didn't do acid and everybody else was up all night staring at a fire.

• 2:20:16Speaker 00

  I don't even know what y'all are training for. This feels like the New York Jets kinda dude. I'm like, what the fuck is going on?

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  So the second, they're like, we're not gonna go handle weapons and be running across fields.

• 2:20:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Cause they'd been up all night and they were hot. And I'm like, great. You just shot an entire day of training, you know? Um, but I went to go get biscuits for everybody. I went to the Bojangles.

• 2:20:34Speaker 00

  Ooh, they're good. I just had one the other day actually.

• 2:20:37Speaker 01

  Apparently in Rome, Georgia, Bojangles is where it's at because cars will be backed all the way down, downtown, I mean, down the main street, directly across the street from Bojangles or McDonald's. There were no cars in it. But I went and I picked up about 30 bacon, egg and cheese biscuits. So I'm coming back and all I can smell is that butter, that bacon, that cheese and them eggs and that biscuit.

• 2:20:58Speaker 00

  God.

• 2:20:58Speaker 01

  I go to get out of my truck.

• 2:21:01Speaker 01

  Punished Snake says, pale horse, you gotta try this goat. It is good. He's been holding that raw goat over a fire. It was not prepared at all. I've had some gamy stuff in my life. That was the gamyest tasting meat I ever put in my dagum mouth.

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  And as soon as I started buying it, after smelling the butter and the, as soon as I bit into it, man, I was like, oh, I was like, that's not too bad. As soon as he turned his head, I tossed it to the farm dogs. I was like.

• 2:21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, I've had bad meat on some LSD and that's, you never forget that. You never forget that.

• 2:21:32Speaker 01

  Gamy?

• 2:21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I've just, I've eaten undercooked duck on LSD.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:36Speaker 00

  And I never forget that shit. I still, sometimes I still floss my teeth years later, even just to get the, just, I feel like some of it's still in there.

• 2:21:44Speaker 01

  So, so after the sacrifice, uh, they chopped the head of the goat off and we carried it around.

• 2:21:49Speaker 00

  What the hell is going on dude?

• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  Uh, we took a picture, um, cause the, the recruitment process was this. Whatever video, whatever new recruitment video we're doing has to be better than the last one.

• 2:22:01Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:22:01Speaker 01

  Every time the base got infiltrated by either a journalist or whatever and doc, their offset got better and better. How did that happen? How did we get infiltrated? How do we stop it from happening again? So Saturday night comes, Saturday comes, now we can start training again. So we're out there shooting and running and stuff and now it's warming back up. And we, uh, we go down Saturday night to the holy spot and build a bonfire. We, uh, we burn American flags. There it is.

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  Now here's the thing, he nicknamed that goat Gar. Uh, his name is William Garfield Bilbro. His grandfather's name is Garfield. So he named the, the goat Gar. So everybody talked about Gar after that. I am back row, uh, two left from the flag. You can see my neck.

• 2:22:49Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's me right there.

• 2:22:51Speaker 00

  Showing a little neck, huh?

• 2:22:52Speaker 01

  Little neck. Well, yeah, the balaclava didn't go all the way down.

• 2:22:55Speaker 00

  Dang.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  Somebody should've caught that and been like, pale horse, your neck's chilling.

• 2:22:59Speaker 00

  You bought that baby clava, which.

• 2:23:00Speaker 01

  I didn't know. They give it to you. That's part of your initiation. When you made it in, they gave me the balaclava and the, the three runes.

• 2:23:06Speaker 00

  That smaller clava they gave you, bro. That little smile for you.

• 2:23:10Speaker 01

  I got a, I got a, I got a, I got a horse head.

• 2:23:12Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  So then we go down and we burn American flags and we burn holy bibles. Um, and, uh, I remember coming back after that weekend and I remember just feeling kinda dirty. I mean, I've been, and maybe that's cause I'd been up for four days or whatever. I don't know. The rain and on and on, but just the act and just the feeling of that. I was like, man, uh, I just feel weird.

• 2:23:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, your spirit.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because I'm like, yeah, that's it. Because I, cause I'm like, man, I come back to the office and I go, I've been working undercover since 1996 off and on, started street level narcotics. I said, I have never had to burn American flags. I've never had to burn holy bibles. And I definitely went with a group of people that went and stole the goat, sacrificed and we drank his blood at a ritual, you know? Because even though they're saying pagan, some of those dudes are praying to Satan. Some of those dudes are playing to like order of nine angles where it's a lot more satanic. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, but that weekend, I guess I had passed

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  the benchmark of trust because that Saturday night, after everybody's going to bed, it's me, Pestilence and TMB. And I kinda asked him a question. I go, you know, a while back, of course I know what I'm asking about, cause we're trying to figure out what it is, but there was a recording that I'd gotten and of the case teams and myself, we were trying to figure out what they meant. And I kinda recircled, circled back on that and I said, what, what were we talking about there? And they kinda whisper and I hear Pestilence say, yeah, I think we can trust him. So, hey, phone and airplane mode, cool. And we start talking and they start telling me about that they've, they've been, they're talking about wanting to do bigger things. They didn't necessarily, they didn't necessarily say we're gonna kill people yet,

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  but it definitely enough to lead us to believe that we need to stay in this longer because we gotta figure out what they're talking about.

• 2:24:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  Right? So let's just fast forward.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Fast forward, uh, cause this was a fast paced case. It was only seven months long, but I'm telling you, it was like no sleep for seven months, you know?

• 2:25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:11Speaker 01

  Um, and, and just running and gunning. So what I find out is the Georgia sale, um, has identified a couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia that they believed were active members of A- Atlanta Antifa. And, and anti-fascists, right? So they wanted to murder them. And so when you find out that somebody's getting ready to be like, we're like, man, what is it that they were supposed to do? And I'm like, Luke would never answer me on the phone. He would just giggle and he goes, look, I'll tell you to your face. I'm just gonna do it on the phone. I said, you know what? I'm cruising through there tomorrow. I wasn't obviously. I'm like, I called the case team. You ready to go to Georgia tomorrow? You ready for me tomorrow? Yes. So I go down, wake him up. I'm like, okay, you know,

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  I like to joke. I like to have fun, but when it's time to be do business, I'm serious. I said, so what the F are we doing? Cause he wouldn't tell me that they called us. They sent out a thing like, hey, training this, we're going on a camping trip, blah, blah, blah, bring it. It looked like he was talking about going out and putting up stickers, posters, flyers, but then he said, make sure you bring your weapons. And then we were all like, what does he mean? What would be going on? So when I met him that day, I said, when I said, what the F are we doing? He says, essentially, we're gonna whack some people. And I said, well, that's way different than putting up stickers.

• 2:26:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:27Speaker 01

  And it's something I definitely would not want to drive my personal truck to. That's why I'm asking you, what are we doing? Do I need to bring something that doesn't come back to me?

• 2:26:34Speaker 00

  Right. Get a rental or whatever.

• 2:26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he, he says, um, he starts laying it out, but now I'm thinking, because the case team's thinking this too, we gotta slow this down. We gotta slow this down. Cause if we wouldn't have found out, I would have been finding out at a camp on a Friday night. And how am I letting my cover team know that? You know what I mean? So.

• 2:26:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. You gotta hurt.

• 2:26:57Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I pointed out to him.

• 2:26:59Speaker 00

  Because you need some space for everybody to figure things out. So you gotta slow it down.

• 2:27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so I'm like, I, I told him, I mean, sometimes the case doesn't allow for that. You gotta take it down right then and there.

• 2:27:09Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 2:27:09Speaker 01

  But I pointed out to him how little, how little planning he had put in to this murder he's talking about, because the planning he drafted on putting up flyers was like insanely operational security. I'm like, what, what's the biggest? I'm just tired of waiting. And I said, look, I'm a site, I played a.

• 2:27:28Speaker 00

  And did he send you a JPG of it or what? Did he just draw it on something?

• 2:27:32Speaker 01

  No, he was just telling me.

• 2:27:33Speaker 00

  Okay. So there's no drawing of it?

• 2:27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing.

• 2:27:35Speaker 00

  Oh, you gotta at least damn draw it up.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  So, so well, and that's what I told him. I was, I was portraying a site survey, a site survey specialist. And I said, dude, this is what I do. I said, I go, I can go in and pull demographics, homes, schools, crime rates, everything. And I said, let me find out what's all at this house. I mean, have you even been by it? He said, no. So we start building that. I come in with fake plates. I say, I just took these off of a car in Florida. Throw those on. We go by, we case the place. I'm not leading it. They're leading it, right? Um, and meanwhile, Punished Snake has now gone back to the Maryland cell. He's up there with a guy that goes by, can't go back. Can't go back was the only one that I really knew in our proximity that actually had a job too. He was a truck driver and he had a $6,000 thermal scope on the 6.5 Creedmoor.

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  And they were talking about now they, they're up there, they're plotting the kickoff of the boogaloo because there was going to be a second amendment gun right gun, uh, second amendment rally for gun rights in Virginia in 2020, January of 2020. And they thought, okay, you're gonna have Antifa, you're gonna have three percenters, militia types, anti-government types, you're gonna have law enforcement. What if we start popping rounds into the crowd from our sniper rifles? And then nobody knows who's shooting each other and they start shooting each other. What if that's the kickoff to the boogaloo? I know it's not a lot of forethought or a lot of afterthought, but this is what you're dealing with, right?

• 2:28:59Speaker 00

  And I'll say this, that's a good plan.

• 2:29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:03Speaker 00

  For what they're trying to do.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Create chaos.

• 2:29:06Speaker 00

  It's like when you tap somebody on the shoulder over here and you're standing over

• 2:29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:29:10Speaker 00

  You know, which dude Victor Wembanyani, you know who that is? Basketball guy?

• 2:29:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:29:14Speaker 00

  Tallest guy ever. Imagine if he does that to people all the time where he would like tap somebody way over there.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And nobody knows.

• 2:29:20Speaker 00

  And he's three people over, dude.

• 2:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:22Speaker 00

  Imagine in kindergarten or whatever, he must've been able to have the most fun. Anyway, back into the story. So yeah, that's absolutely insane.

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  So then we start casing that, but meanwhile, we're finding out more stuff on this, these, the cell up in Maryland and what the Baltimore division does is they do a title three wire town and they put cameras in that apartment. If I thought, if, if what I thought they were talking about was crazy face to face, the stuff that they were sending me that they were saying in that apartment was just them two going. I'm like, holy crap. They're talking out breaking out the saints. And what they refer to the saints as your white supremacy mass shooters. The Charleston guy, the New Zealand guy, the, uh, the Norway guy. I'm not saying their names for on a purpose, right? But they have, like they actually have a scoreboard and it says the scoreboard and it's got the mass shooters, the white supremacists, 77 and O.

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  That's the, uh, that's the Norway guy. Um, I think it's 55 and O is New Zealand. You go all the way down Pittsburgh, seven and O, nine for Charleston. And it says, what, when will you make the leaderboard?

• 2:30:24Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:30:25Speaker 01

  You know, these are the stars. Yeah. So on the anniversary of those mass murders, they'll say, happy saint.

• 2:30:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:30:32Speaker 01

  Like if it were me, it'd be happy saint pain day, you know? Um, and it's just crazy. So, but again, are you just talking trash? Are you gonna go do something?

• 2:30:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:30:41Speaker 01

  So now we're diving down to the end of this case and we're on a time, we're on, we're trying to make sure everything gets together and I'm running nonstop. I go to Baltimore, I drive up and shoot all day with the, the Maryland crew, trying to tighten things up, make sure we got everything settled for that. Go down, uh, to the Georgia crew, have cased the place with everybody in the, in the, I mean, you got guys saying like, hey, are there any kids? And another dude saying, I don't have a problem shooting a comic kid. You got another dude saying, oh, I'm perfect. I'm an IT. I work nine to five. I look like a normal citizen, but I've been, I've been wanting to do this for two years.

• 2:31:17Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 2:31:18Speaker 01

  Can I pop my cherry? And I'm like, well, popping your cherry means something to me. What are you talking about?

• 2:31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:31:22Speaker 01

  Oh, he actually wants to put a bullet in one of his head. He doesn't want to just be standing guard. So for this Georgia crew, they had it down to where we were all four were gonna go in.

• 2:31:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:31:31Speaker 01

  One was gonna post in the window. Me and this is what I was instructed to do. Me and TMB were gonna go down and murder the family and anything else. But if they want to put a bullet in too, we'll let them take a shot. And then pestilence was gonna set the house on fire and we're gonna leave. And that was, that was, that was number one because they'd already started forming a list of liberal journalist, uh, anchors. And I'm like, you tell, I said, you're telling me that you want to start taking out people, uh, who are like popular, popular. And they go, yeah. And I go, well, it's a good thing. We got this family to start and get a little practice run. But.

• 2:32:05Speaker 00

  So you're trying to keep them locked into this so that you guys can, you guys can, can, can take action.

• 2:32:10Speaker 01

  Right. And you're looking at over at X. Okay. So what did you do? So if you want to come back and say, oh, we were just talking trash. No, you bought catch bags to put on AR. So when you shoot, if you have to shoot, it catches the brass. You don't leave brass. Uh, created a silencer for a gun. Um, other things like, uh, he told us the way it was gonna work is we were gonna go to a camp, leave all of our digital footprint, all media, all phones, everything there. Go to a pay by the hour motel, scrub all our loose skin off. We're gonna put on BDUs or whatever. We're gonna tape our pants to our boots, tape our gloves to our wrists, even this, he was instructing, even put Vaseline on your facial hair. So you don't drop anything. Um, and he'd even done enough research to where he

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  had read that this would be Luke, uh, TMB, um, who was telling me this. He had read that, um, for a lot of people, the first time they murder somebody, they lose control of their bowels. So he was suggesting we wear Depends.

• 2:33:07Speaker 00

  What do you mean diapers?

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, diapers.

• 2:33:08Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 2:33:09Speaker 01

  And I looked at him and I said, I'll be all right. I didn't say I killed anybody. I'm just saying, I don't need a diaper.

• 2:33:14Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  You know, I'm like, I'll be okay.

• 2:33:16Speaker 00

  Just letting them.

• 2:33:17Speaker 01

  Let it marinate. So we were able to pull it all off. We came in on a Wednesday.

• 2:33:22Speaker 00

  Man, yeah.

• 2:33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. We came in on a Wednesday, started the arrest. I picked up Luke because we figured that would, I mean, sneaking up on a hundred acre.

• 2:33:31Speaker 00

  Fuck. Hold on a second, man. Hold on a second.

• 2:33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:34Speaker 00

  This has gone so fast, man. I mean, it's gone, it's taken, it's a long story, but it's gone so now it's at this crescendo where it's like, that's kind of, so what are you like that day? Do you like?

• 2:33:45Speaker 01

  I was running on fumes, man. I think I had the flu at the time. My back was spasming because what I didn't realize.

• 2:33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, if you're gonna murder someone, I think you damn, that's an L5S1.

• 2:33:53Speaker 01

  I know. You're right. Yes. So I'm like, uh, uh, I had a lumbar fusion in 2002. Uh, after this case in 2020, I found out that my lumbar fusion had broken approximately three to five years after. So they were telling me for like 15 years, I was going around with a, a disloc, I mean, a, a.

• 2:34:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  A back that's disconnected.

• 2:34:12Speaker 00

  Just a bad hitch or whatever.

• 2:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe broke. There's nothing in, there's no, there's no cadaver bone. There's no disc. It's just floating and.

• 2:34:19Speaker 00

  The old floating spine trick. That sounds like.

• 2:34:21Speaker 01

  So every, you would hear me on the recording and there was like, was that you making that sound? I said, yeah. And they go, what happened? I said, my back jerked, you know, I'm, I'm walking. I'm like, I'm walking, I go like that, you know?

• 2:34:32Speaker 00

  Brother, you just, you barely keeping it together. Okay, so let's get to the end of this story just because we should.

• 2:34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:41Speaker 00

  You guys are driving over there. You're driving.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I drive.

• 2:34:44Speaker 00

  And you know what y'all's plan is. You know what you're.

• 2:34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because for me personally, I was dealing with SWAT teams because they were gonna let a SWAT team hit us. So I made sure that, I mean, I go and meet them. They tell me what they're planning on and as long as I'm okay and I don't disagree with safety stuff, being a SWAT guy myself, you know, and I'm like, okay. I looked at it. I'm like, oh, these dudes are squared away. So I go and pick Luke up for lunch, but I've already, we've already laid out all this stuff to where I'm like, hey, man, we're getting close to this thing. He's like, yeah, I said, you know, I've been thinking, the last thing we need to do is be riding around armed and get put on the radar. But the cops stopped us like, and he goes, you know, that's a good idea. So when I picked him up that day, I said, hey, you're not packing, right? He goes, no, no, no, I left it inside. I said, me neither, man. So I'm getting the information, getting the intel that he's not carrying.

• 2:35:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:31Speaker 01

  We pull around, I like my truck has a problem. I pull over, I go, I go, I said, if that damn, because literally it did happen to my truck. The calipers froze. They got, they locked and froze and smoke was going everywhere. I said, if that damn caliber's locked again. And he's like, man, that's a, I pull over and I get close to the fence to where he can't get out. And then I go around the back of the truck, act like I'm looking. Then another truck pulls up. Well, it's actually an FBI agent. But he pulls up and he goes, hey, man, you need any help? And I look up and I came up with the whole ruse. We practiced it. And, and he says, hey, man, you need any help? And I look up and I go, holy shit, what are you doing here? And now we're acting like we know each other. He goes, what are you doing here? I go, man, I ain't seen you in forever. I didn't know you lived around here. I go, man, this

• 2:36:14Speaker 01

  is a nice truck. And as I'm walking up to talk to him, Luke's looking at us. And then what he doesn't see is the Bearcat, which is the military vehicle SWAT team uses, and it's coming over the hill. So he's focused on us and I jump into the truck, right when they pull up, right when I'm jumping into the truck going, go, go, go, they're out there, they got, I mean rifles, they're up on a turret. Don't move. And they got him out. No issues. Arrest will know, nothing wrong. And then while that happens, and then they go pick up pestilence at his house. They pick up Helter Skelter, who was the pop my cherry guy. They pick him up at his work.

• 2:36:50Speaker 00

  He's wildin'.

• 2:36:51Speaker 01

  And then we keep it quiet because Thursday morning.

• 2:36:54Speaker 00

  There's still more to bust.

• 2:36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Wednesday, that was Wednesday. Thursday morning, the Washington Philadelphia SWAT team hit Billbrook. The Baltimore SWAT team hit Can't Go Back and Punish Snake. And then now it starts coming out. So now it's Friday and I'm still in the group. I'm just monitoring. And it's Friday and I'm now, now the arrests are starting to come out like, holy crap, did you see this? Did you read this? And now the affidavits are starting to pop up. And they're like, wait, it says here that there's a fed that infiltrated this group. And they're like, who's the fed in the group? And everybody's like, has anybody heard from Pale Horse? No, no, no. And it goes on and goes, I'm just watching. I'm watching. Somewhere around five o'clock on Friday, Nazaro, Roman Wolf, AKA Roman Wolf, comes on and goes, he

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  says something to the effect of, I'm not sure we could have done anything to pick him up because he was one of our best members. And then, and I was like, oh, he knows it's me because he's going back. And I mean, I'm sure he keeps recordings of all the interviews he's done and stuff, or at least say, on this date, I did this.

• 2:37:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:37:53Speaker 01

  And, and they figured it out. And I was like, oh, he's got me. And, and, and it says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf. I screenshotted it and I sent it to all the case teams, headquarters, everything. And I go, and I'm out.

• 2:38:06Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 2:38:07Speaker 01

  But they were talking, we had some other coverage in there that people reported. And

• 2:38:13Speaker 01

  it turns out there was another dude that had infiltrated that group, not law enforcement, though, was doing it, helping, you know, reporting to, you know, I don't know whether it be the Guardian, something, paper, yeah, BBC, something. So we got copies of what the chatter after I got booted. And some of my, my case team printed it for me. When I came in, it was highlighted up on my desk. It says something like, was, are you saying the fed was the guy with the deep voice on the calls? And they're like, yeah. And they go, there's no way, dude. That's one of the most solid neo Nazis I've ever been around, you know? And then the other one would be like, oh, there was something really endearing about him, you know? I look at the squad and I'm like, see, they do love me. These are my people, you know?

• 2:38:56Speaker 00

  Damn, bro.

• 2:38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:58Speaker 00

  Fuck, bro.

• 2:38:59Speaker 01

  And then, and then you, then you get home and you go, now I take a shower.

• 2:39:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. How long do you take off after that?

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  It depends. Because I used to not take any days off, but that ended up being my downfall. And, and then I learned how not to do that to myself. So by that time, I'm longing the tooth. I could have worked till I was 57. That's the cutoff for the FBI, but I was 50 at this point. Or at least I retired at 50.

• 2:39:25Speaker 00

  Well, you look great, man.

• 2:39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it was like, you know, I was like, that one, I probably took a week off, you know, just relax, chill. Called my pastor, though, especially after that Halloween weekend. I was like, man, I feel kinda, like you said, my spirit, I was like, I feel kinda dirty, man. Am I praying over me, you know?

• 2:39:41Speaker 00

  And did you have a family during this?

• 2:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:44Speaker 00

  Do you still have a family?

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, yeah, but I'm going through divorce.

• 2:39:47Speaker 00

  Are you?

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  We didn't make it. Not gonna talk about it because it's still going through, but.

• 2:39:52Speaker 00

  I'm sorry to hear that for you and your wife.

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, we're a statistic now, you know? So kids, kids have grown up and moved out. And then, and then I retired and yeah.

• 2:40:03Speaker 00

  Do you feel like the job had an effect on your marriage?

• 2:40:07Speaker 01

  I'm sure, because my wife was not law enforcement. This was not her world. Essentially, I was her world. So she married me, but you married me, you, yeah, you married the bureau too. I mean, you look back and doing the book, you had to dive back in because I wanted to be transparent. That's the only way I know how to be. But I, I don't want it to be all cakes and pies. I want to tell you when it was sad too, when it was messed up. So even though we were happy at the time, we were doing this book to dive back into times where we weren't happy. That was tough. That was tough, man, to put your mind back when, oh my gosh, you know, 911 hang up call, cops show up at the house, I gotta call my

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  supervisor, you know, whatever, whatever's going on. Me, me going through, you know, getting stripped in a basement at gunpoint and all this stuff. It's just, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it did. Well, I know it did. Because especially during some of the cases early on, when our kids were young, like three and one, man, just to get rid of her nervous energy, she'd be moving furniture and stuff. So I'd come home and, you know, you walk in the door and trip over something. I'm like, why don't, who put the couch here, you know?

• 2:41:17Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:41:17Speaker 01

  But then she.

• 2:41:18Speaker 00

  There's that much anxiety.

• 2:41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the, the way she tells it is that she finally just had to give it up to the Lord because she, she's, she could worry about me all the time. But I told her, I said, well, it's my time. It's my time. I think I'm good at what I do. I'm not lackadaisical. I've been blessed with this skill set and with this, you know, whatever. I've been blessed with all this, so.

• 2:41:38Speaker 00

  Man, that would be so, it'd be tough. To take somebody you love every day and just let, and know that the whole day there is a risk.

• 2:41:45Speaker 01

  Well, welcome to first responder in military.

• 2:41:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thank you for saying that. No, you're right.

• 2:41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's, like I said, man, if you're, you think a pitch to hire people is like, hey, we're real high in suicide, substance abuse, divorce, and dying within five years after retiring. Who wants in?

• 2:42:03Speaker 01

  Sign me up.

• 2:42:04Speaker 00

  Hate to even laugh at that.

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  I know, but it's like, you know, like, so we gotta get better. And you're seeing a lot more stuff. You're seeing a lot more. I, I don't know if law enforcement is gonna open up about it. They should, but you see a lot of spec ops, former spec ops, former law enforcement, and they're getting these, they're getting these plant-based treatments, you know?

• 2:42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't even imagine. I never thought about the stress that spouses and children must feel with a, a member of their family being involved, like in, in a service, in like, in life risking service, you know?

• 2:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there should be more. Actually, my wife was saying it from the jump because we, in the FBI, we have a psychological unit that was specifically created for undercovers. It's called Safeguard. So if I'm an active undercover, I have to be psychologically assessed, mandatory.

• 2:42:56Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:42:57Speaker 01

  And then we expanded it out and it's being used to do a lot of things. So like, if you're an agent or a task force officer and you work innocent images, crimes against children, we get you assessed because it's tough to look at that stuff and, and see that kind of stuff on a daily basis.

• 2:43:15Speaker 00

  Had to take a little bathroom break there, man.

• 2:43:19Speaker 01

  It's cool.

• 2:43:19Speaker 00

  This is the longest episode we've ever had, I think, man. So, thank you for your attention to detail and just taking us down some.

• 2:43:25Speaker 01

  Being a slow talker.

• 2:43:27Speaker 00

  Hey, just taking us down some memories of yours, man. It's nice. So, I used to listen to a storyteller, you know, someone share their story. And share stories from their book and.

• 2:43:38Speaker 00

  Well, I know you had mentioned earlier, we talked a little bit about the one percenters.

• 2:43:43Speaker 00

  And you had a pretty famed case with the outlaws. Can you take me into that?

• 2:43:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  Again, longest undercover I did, two years.

• 2:43:55Speaker 01

  The infiltration, I kinda got, I can't remember again, if I got recruited or I saw a canvas, but it was probably just a phone call. Because as I said, working at the UC school, at the undercover school. If you, in the bureau, if you say, alright, we've got 600 certified undercovers. How many of those undercovers have been the primary undercover on an operation, on one? It's gonna dwindle down. More than one, less than five, it's gonna dwindle down. More than five, less than 10, now it's really getting dwindled down. If you get to like, that 10 and over mark, it's generally, we all know each other. Cause we all go back to the program, we all help out with the school and stuff. And you know who's active and who isn't. So, if somebody reaches out. I went up and did the interview in Massachusetts, in Boston.

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  And I got the gig. We talked about all kinds of things on like, ways to go in, ways to not go in. I preferred to go in cold, which means I'm not being introduced by source.

• 2:44:54Speaker 00

  Go into?

• 2:44:55Speaker 01

  To try to make that bump. In other words, the outlaws were already predicated.

• 2:45:00Speaker 00

  And the outlaws are a?

• 2:45:01Speaker 01

  The outlaw motorcycle club is a one percenter club, it's probably the second largest. Hell's Angels is probably the largest. But worldwide, and that's their, that's their colors right there. They refer to the skull as Charlie.

• 2:45:14Speaker 00

  Okay, the AOA, American Outlaws Association. They started in McCook, Illinois, in 1935. The Outlaws MC is the oldest outlaw biker club in the world. With 441 chapters located in 43 countries. The club is also the second largest in the world, behind the Hell's Angels. And what made you, is it still active?

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the outlaws are still going strong.

• 2:45:40Speaker 00

  And what made you wanna infiltrate them?

• 2:45:42Speaker 01

  Well, it's the case team. It's not necessarily me, it's that there's a case team and a task force and state and local law enforcement that have been working up there. And they've got different over, they've got different crimes, they've arrested people, but they're at a point now in their investigation where they feel like they can get an undercover. Or that's the next step to do.

• 2:46:02Speaker 00

  Got it. And the whole group, outlaws is not a criminal organization, there was just somebody that was doing crime in it.

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:46:07Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  That's the argument. Like I said earlier, somebody's like, we're all one percenters criminals? Like, not necessarily, but it's kinda the point of being a one percenter, you know what I mean? But like, all bikers, you know, I've heard them say, or not all of them, but the ones I infiltrate is like, I didn't join the outlaws to be a beta.

• 2:46:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:46:25Speaker 01

  I joined the outlaws to be an alpha.

• 2:46:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:46:27Speaker 01

  I'm going out here, I don't care what I'm doing, I'm an outlaw.

• 2:46:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, all private equity people, criminals?

• 2:46:35Speaker 01

  But, so they, these guys were predicated, the Taunton chapter specifically. Taunton, Massachusetts. And I went up, I interviewed, and I said, look, okay. My idea was, just let me go in there. So, what I did, because I used to work at gentlemen's clubs, which is an oxymoron, in my opinion, because there's no gentleman in there.

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  And neither was I back then, living in the flesh, as they say.

• 2:47:01Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 2:47:02Speaker 01

  I know, right? And then you have two daughters, and it's all girl dogs, I'm like, y'all stay away from any pole in this house. I swear, no. But, I knew how those establishments worked. So, I went, I would go in when, like, day shift, when it wasn't, and the outlaws weren't all in there. Cause we knew that, they told me the bar they were at and stuff. So, that's what I did, maybe two, three times, because human nature is to exaggerate, you know? So, the night that they're finally coming in, the outlaws are finally coming in.

• 2:47:36Speaker 00

  Coming into the strip club?

• 2:47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm there now, alright? So, they have, a lot of your biker clubs, one percenter clubs, have a mandatory meeting every week. They refer to that as church. Some clubs, that's where they talk dirty business, you know, you leave your phones outside, all that thing. Or it just might be shooting the bull. It might be time to collect the dues, whatever. But, the surveillance team was on them. I'm already at the Foxy Lady, which was the strip club.

• 2:48:01Speaker 00

  And that's in Oregon?

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  It was in Brockton, Massachusetts.

• 2:48:03Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:48:04Speaker 01

  So, Taunton and Brockton are right next to each other. But the strip club's in Brockton. So, I'm already at the Foxy Lady, I'm getting some drinks, I'm telling jokes, people are laughing. And then here comes like, 13, 15 outlaws. And they take the whole back wall in the back bar. See a black leather and testosterone, right? And originally, I'd been told that they weren't allowed to wear their colors, which is the vest with the moniker you saw, that's their cut. And that was one of my first questions, I'm like, hey, man, can they wear their colors in the bars? And they're like, no, they're not allowed to. And I'm like, okay, that makes it easier for me.

• 2:48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:48:37Speaker 01

  Cause now I'm just a tattooed dude, drinking whiskey, looking at naked people, listening to heavy metal music. It's the same thing the guy next to me is doing. But when they come in and they're all wearing their colors, that changes my approach. Cause listen to me, do I sound like I'm from Boston? Absolutely not. Soon as I start talking, they're like, where the F are you from? You know, and I'm like, you know. Deep south, south, south. I'm from South Boston.

• 2:49:01Speaker 01

  I'm a Southie. But.

• 2:49:03Speaker 00

  Southie Carolina.

• 2:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, Southie Carolina, that's it, you know, cackalacky. So, you know, do you walk over around the bar and go, hey, fellas, y'all ride? No, I'm gonna take a butt kicking or something. So, I started working, doing what I do, I guess.

• 2:49:22Speaker 01

  There was one guy that they had said, that was in the group, and they had the Intel Perfect on him. He loved to be surrounded by big dudes, he liked to be the center of attention. So, I'm laughing it up, and I'm cutting it up, and it's getting louder and louder. And, but I've got people around me, I can see them, you know, it's like fishing. Like, I can see them looking, you know, and I'm like, okay, alright. He's paying attention now, I was a bigger dude, 6'4", probably 280 then, and holding it very well. And he, I see him talking to the bartender. Well, what's he saying? Who is that? Oh, that dude's from Texas, man, he comes here all the time, all the time? Two, three times, you know, whatever? But then, eventually he yells at me, and he says, yeah, there I am, right there after a shoulder surgery.

• 2:50:04Speaker 01

  He yells at me, and he says, hey, where the F are you from? And I'm like, man, down near the border of Mexico. What? So, we start jugging, banging, for, I think he sent me a drink first, called me over, I went over to start talking. Next thing you know, we're hitting it off. He's giving me cards for the lobster festival, which is Lobsta Fest.

• 2:50:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, they love it.

• 2:50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, Lobsta Fest, and it was gonna be, like, the next month, and he said, just tell them you're with me. And so, then you start, you just start ingratiating, and you start getting trust.

• 2:50:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:50:37Speaker 01

  And.

• 2:50:38Speaker 00

  They love a lobster, man. They love a fish that can pinch ya.

• 2:50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And I do, me too. I'm a bottom feeder. I love them, man. All them shrimp, shrimp and crab legs, I can eat my weight in that stuff.

• 2:50:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a top.

• 2:50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, eventually, you get in, and you make more and more acquaintances. And I came in as a site survey specialist, the same kinda thing I did on the base case. But, that allowed me to travel, it allowed me to be there and not live there, or whatever, you know? I found quickly, when I started flying a lot, that even in Houston, when I was based in McAllen, there's people that don't live in Houston, but there's so many dagum flights, they literally fly in, work, fly home. Or they might come in for the week and then go home on the weekend. So, I said, well, I can sell that, cause it's true. I mean, I've seen plenty of people doing it. So, that's kinda what I was doing.

• 2:51:28Speaker 00

  You were living in Texas and flying in for work?

• 2:51:30Speaker 01

  Yep. And then eventually, they find out that I'm also a criminal. Oh, shocker, right? Cause they're already predicated, I mean.

• 2:51:37Speaker 00

  And what were you flying it for, just to be part of the group?

• 2:51:40Speaker 01

  No, I originally said, I'm there doing site survey specialist work for investors that are looking to buy property. And I would go do that. And I would actually go legitimately, go down to the clerk of court and pull records and stuff. And, cause again, you wanted to look, smell, taste, feel real.

• 2:51:58Speaker 01

  But, they, what they eventually learned, or what I portrayed, and what they believed, was that I was a high ranking, if not the leader, of an, high ranking member, if not the leader of an international theft ring. And I was moving stuff into Mexico. So, it started with some insurance fraud. They would report vehicles stolen, motorcycles.

• 2:52:23Speaker 01

  And this is all based on the truth, because at that time, when I was living in the border, I'd already learned through auto theft groups, task forces and stuff, and from the insurance company, that Harley-Davidsons and V8 4x4s, man, the cartel, they would steal them all the time. So, so, I'm telling the truth, and they do motorcycles first. So, they report three or four Harley's stolen. So, they get the stolen money from their insurance company. I pay a stolen prize, which is usually around 20% of what the real price would be, and then I'm off. Well, they don't get arrested. And then the next thing you know, it's a truck. And the next thing you know, and then we get full-fledged. Now, it's like, when you coming back, Tex, when you coming back?

• 2:53:04Speaker 01

  I got three things lined up. So, you pull up, and man, we would load F-350s.

• 2:53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, steal my wife.

• 2:53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. F-350s, stuff like that. But even if you were worried about predication, like, if you're predicated, and for the people that don't know that, it just means that we've got evidence that you have either talked about it or doing it. So.

• 2:53:28Speaker 01

  If we have nothing on you and I'm coming up to bump you and I was gonna go, hey, man, you want some marijuana or you want, you want a kilo of coke? That's, that's odd and that's not right. I'm now leading it. But when the first time I walk outside with the president of the Outlaws chapter who went by Joe Dogs, so he's the, he's the chapter president. We walk outside and he goes, where do you live? I said, McAllen. He goes, where's I guess right on the border. Next question, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? I'm like about 13 right now. Lives between 11 and 13 on the border. He goes, man, if I could get them for 13. I said, no, you don't get them for 13 unless you come to the border and then you drive them back up. The reason they cost 25 to 30 up here is because it has to make it here from the border. Not a good drug dealer.

• 2:54:11Speaker 01

  Or his math was off. Not a good businessman. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. There's risk involved. Well, it's a good pitch. I want to get it for the same as you. I know, yeah. So next thing you know, like I said, F350s, uh, four by four Tahos. So it's a lot of insurance fraud at first. At first. Got it. Then I've gained trust. Now they carjack somebody and they're calling me Tex. We got one that is hot. I mean, it is on fire right now. We just took this dude at gunpoint. We almost killed him, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, don't worry about it. I got it. And now I'm moving that. Now I'm gaining more trust, right? So as the case goes on. And are y'all using code language or like we got a bad lobster up here or something like that? You can, but what's comical about that Theo is I've sat on so many wiretaps and,

• 2:54:56Speaker 01

  and we've run wiretaps and you're listening or you get on the phone yourself as undercover and you're being all like super operational security. You're like, okay, the, the bird is in the cage. I've got three cheeseburgers out back. Five minutes into the conversation, I'm telling you, 99% of the time, they're just talking openly dirty. It's like they start with it, you know, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, there's like a whisper in the wigwam or whatever. Right, yeah. So like I had a guy on another case, I won't go into it because I will stay on the Outlaws, but this is what he, he's like, you know, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. And I'm looking at him going, I know, man, I know. He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I said, I know. He said, this right here, that's just a bump.

• 2:55:38Speaker 01

  And he goes on and I go, you just did cocaine and you said, okay. And he says, and you know, I don't sell it anymore either. And I said, I know, Mike. He said, I used to sell truckloads of it, but I don't anymore. I said, I know, man. He goes, but if you want them five eight balls, I'll get them for 750. It's just like, I'm like, what? Your little tank. I'm like, I am confused. So, so during this case, a guy I didn't tell you about, there was actually a picture of him in that picture you pulled up, the red shirt, red tee shirt, that's Scott Town. Uh, I talked thoroughly about Scott Town in the book. Again, I told you, I worked undercover from 96 to 2022 roughly. And how much cocaine are you on right there with that bad arm, brother? Look at you grinning. That would be muscle relaxers and pain pills.

• 2:56:22Speaker 01

  My God, boy. I'm like, I'm, I'm like less than a week out, I think, right there. Your smile did a gram at least, brother. No, I did not. Just joking, just joking. Okay, so Scott Town. Uh, so this is legitimately the closest relationship I've ever built undercover. We bonded so well and it was scary. Like, I mean, I'm talking like we could complete each other's sentences. We thought the same. It was literally the story of that proverbial fork in the road. He went that way and I went that way and I easily could have gone his way. And maybe that's why I was good at, at my skill set in these types of environments. And y'all was just friends?

• 2:57:07Speaker 01

  Well, he was, he was, he went to jail. He was a target. I mean, he, he was not a patch member. Um, his story was he was gonna be patched, but he was also doing some stuff for the mafia and somewhere his group got pinched and he was, he was, he was looking at time. And at that point in time, he had four daughters and he said, I don't want to, I don't want to go to prison with my four daughters. And I was like, okay, man, cool. Um, but there would be like a lot, there would be talk like, man, grenades, bazookas, whatever, rocket launchers, not a bazooka, but a rocket launcher. But those things would talk and then it wouldn't come to. Or somebody would come in talking big and we'd like, oh, this looks good. And then it wouldn't come through. But, but after the carjackings and things like that, we start getting more and more because the case team is also running a Title III wiretap.

• 2:57:51Speaker 01

  Um, and eventually we got to the point in the case where I let them know, not all at once, but I let them know that yes, I did used to be in the drug trade. But heat was getting close. People were getting pinched and I backed out of it because running everything south, most of the time law enforcement is looking for money or guns going south to trade for dope or buy dope. I'm like, if you got a stole, this is my story to them. I'm like, if you, I'm like, if you've got a truck full of stolen vehicles of the Bill of Laiden, I mean, what's a truck driver know? He sees a Bill of Laiden, he does what he does. I was just talking, blowing smoke, but it kind of making it, making them comfortable, relaxed.

• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  Um, I think enough, but I eventually let them know I did used to be in the dope game because from day one, they were hounding me. When you, when you gonna introduce us somebody down there? When you gonna, because think of it, what does a drug dealer want? They want the purest dope they can get at the cheapest price they can get. So that way you can step on it and make some money, right? So imagine having a pipeline in little old Taunton, Massachusetts, directly from the cartel. Let's go. Yeah, right? You're getting keys. So that's what they saw in you? Yeah. Got it. And that was all fictional? That was my backstory. Yeah, that was my legend. Yeah, but it wasn't really happening, right? Um, and like all the stolen vehicles, they would think they're going to, no, we, we, we make sure nobody's following them, but then that semi would turn around and head

• 2:59:16Speaker 01

  up north of Boston or something to a warehouse. And by the end of the case, you got a warehouse full of stolen parts and cars and motorcycles and stolen cars and whatever. Dang, bro. Big trucks, big trucks, but. So the case gets to a point like, yeah, sorry. It's good. So I'll start laying out that I wasn't a dope game and Joe Dogs is chomping at the bit, man. He's like, he's like, dude, if I, you gotta introduce me. I started saying, my guy's Manny, Manny, Manny. Um, and they're like, man, if I can meet Manny. Well, the whole ruse was, and this, this technique's been used, uh, and it was a drug protection. I said, look, here's the deal. I laid it out over a long period of time, but I'm like, look, Manny reached out to me,

• 2:59:59Speaker 01

  wants to know, he wanted my truck drivers to deliver a load into Canada. And I, and the reason I told them that a white guy, the gringo, never got kicked out of a Mexican drug trafficking organization or international theft ring is because I was the guy with the dirty contacts at the port of entry and at the checkpoints. And yes, there's corruption, not all, but I'm saying it, it's, there's corruption cases on the border. I mean, think about this. You get, somebody offers you 15 grand to do this, next, I don't know, if you're broke, I mean, you know what I mean? Um, so not saying everybody's dirty, uh, but I'm saying that's why, that was my story and they believed it because why else would they keep me in? So when I did that story about going to Canada, I said, hey, um, does your guy, do, do you

• 3:00:42Speaker 01

  still have your people at the checkpoint or at the port of entry? No, they fell through. I said, no, I'm not letting my truck drivers do it. I said, but I've been being hounded. We just want to meet them. And I'm like, what if they come here and we just meet and we help this because we want to make sure nothing's getting ripped and all that stuff. And they're like, yeah, man, that'd be awesome. So that's what we started laying out. Now Scott Town jumps on them and Scott Town, I even look at him and I'm like, dude, why are you doing this? What? You told me, you know what? No, there's a strong argument to be made that the reason he did that is because he liked me so much. No way. Because he. So you kind of let him into it even just by being buddies? It's not an entrapment thing, but it's like, if you ask him, he's probably gonna say something like this.

• 3:01:26Speaker 01

  Um, I didn't want to do it and I was suspicious, but he knew Joe Dogs and the other people involved could screw it up really bad. And if I got hurt and he wasn't there, he'd never forgive himself. You see what I'm saying? Y'all were close, huh? Yeah, tight, real tight. Um, but so there's a point in the case and I'm, I'm bouncing his daughter on my knee. His daughter's one, my youngest daughter's one. So they kind of are making the same noises and moving the same, but I'm not at home with my daughter, I'm there with his. And you know, you're looking, I know the training, I know, I, I put the training on, but I'm looking at her going, man, I love this guy.

• 3:02:10Speaker 01

  I mean, he's, I mean, yeah, I mean, if he does criminal stuff, okay, but I mean, we think the same. He likes to do this, I like to do, we work out, fight, ride, all that stuff, man. And, uh. Do you miss him? Yeah, yeah. You still keep in touch with him? Maybe, maybe now. After, after all this came out, yeah. It's a, it's pretty amazing, actually. Uh, I've also been trolled by people we put in jail too. It's pretty funny, but, uh, uh, maybe I'll end it on that, but so.

• 3:02:48Speaker 01

  I'm looking at the refrigerator and I'm thinking all these thoughts and I'm like, man, I'm looking at the refrigerator. He's got all kinds of stickers and magnets and stuff. And I saw one that said WWSD. Now, if you're in the Christian faith, you see WWJD a lot. What would Jesus do? What would Jesus do? Wristbands and stuff. And I looked over and I go WWSD? And I looked and it said, what would Satan do? And I went, oh, no, he's different. He's different. But it was just like a tough guy thing. And then uh,

• 3:03:14Speaker 00

  So he wasn't a real Satanist?

• 3:03:16Speaker 01

  No, no, he was just, just bolstering.

• 3:03:18Speaker 00

  Just joking around with magnets?

• 3:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. But uh, but I was like, oh no, we're not the same. You're going to jail. But uh, I uh,

• 3:03:28Speaker 00

  But is that weird, man? To be hanging out with somebody and always thinking in the back of your head, they're gonna go to jail?

• 3:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:33Speaker 00

  It just sounds like a fucking power trip.

• 3:03:35Speaker 01

  No, actually it could be, it could give you some stress. It could give you some PTSD. You can start getting anxiety because you're sitting there going, okay, you're fearing the end of the case. You're fearing them finding out who you are. You're fearing this relationship that you built. And I know there'll be plenty of maybe law enforcement or even people on the case would be like, I can't believe you're talking like that. Look, man, I'm human. I love that guy.

• 3:03:56Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, would it ever be weird like if you were leaving a room together or something? And like, you wouldn't want to walk out first? That would be my fear all the time. I'd always be like, I gotta walk behind because I don't wanna, you know what I'm saying? What if they know something or they're leading me somewhere?

• 3:04:08Speaker 01

  Well, I'll say this, a lot of cops, a lot of cops sit in a restaurant, they keep their back to the wall. Yeah. Cause you wanna see everything.

• 3:04:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:04:16Speaker 01

  When you're undercover, can you do that? I mean, can I come in there and hug the wall with my back the whole way through? Or do I just gotta look like I'm a normal person?

• 3:04:21Speaker 00

  People would catch on.

• 3:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you don't wanna look, you don't wanna raise suspicion.

• 3:04:24Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:04:25Speaker 01

  So the case is going and we get to the point where we're gonna do the drug deal. Um, got everything lined up, months and months and months. Scott's in, uh, there's some outlaws from Brockton that are in it. There's some outlaws from Taunton that are in it. And uh, you know, you ask the one percenter, are they all criminals? I mean, you look at the Brockton chapter, let's say most of them had day jobs. Maybe they bent, maybe they did time, maybe they didn't. But you go to the Taunton chapter and out of like 13, uh, 13 to 15 outlaws, one and a half had a job. I say half because that guy was a tattoo artist and a piercer. But I don't think he worked, you know, nine to five, seven days a week. It was more like a part-time thing. The other guy had a towing company. Everybody else was a straight thug.

• 3:05:08Speaker 01

  All criminal activity and make money, whether it's robbing, home invasion, carjacking, theft, dope, you know?

• 3:05:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:05:15Speaker 01

  So, um,

• 3:05:17Speaker 00

  I would do the dope.

• 3:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd probably do that every car theft for sure. Um, but I,

• 3:05:24Speaker 00

  Cause I don't even like driving at night that much.

• 3:05:27Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:05:27Speaker 00

  I don't love it. But anyway, go on.

• 3:05:29Speaker 01

  We get to the night before. We've lined everything up and the assistant United States attorney, um, is like, hey, they're talking, are they talking about this in the clubhouse, you know, kinda thing about this drug deal that we're getting ready to do and all this? I said, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it. You know, and from an, from an investigative or evidence standpoint, it would be good to have because if they're talking about that planning and all that, that'll help with like asset forfeiture and getting search warrants for the, for the property and stuff.

• 3:06:00Speaker 00

  So just having recordings of them talking about it?

• 3:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I go to the, I go to the clubhouse. Joe Dogs tells me to come over. It's the night before we're gonna do the big drug deal. They don't know it, but we've got 50 kilos of real cocaine and we got a thousand pounds of real weed.

• 3:06:13Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 3:06:14Speaker 01

  And we're gonna have to move it from one truck to another. Now, snipers are up on the roof. I mean, we got SWAT all in the hotel. I mean, I literally did like the TV thing where you walk in and you can't see nothing because the projector's on your face. And they're like, this is the guy that's gonna be the undercover, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I look a lot like the other dudes. Don't shoot me.

• 3:06:35Speaker 01

  Just tell me, I'll be real still, man. Uh, you know?

• 3:06:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, I'd be like, I'm the guy wearing like the, I would wear like a special neck brace or like a, um, maybe like a John Elway jersey or something.

• 3:06:47Speaker 01

  Full dress, yeah.

• 3:06:48Speaker 00

  Something to stand out, dude. I would wear like a, yeah, like a Mason Crosby jersey. I would wear something that like, do not shoot this guy.

• 3:06:56Speaker 01

  The crash test dummy full jumpsuit, you know, bright with reflections on it, yeah.

• 3:07:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'd wear like a Suicide Boy shirt or maybe not that. That might not help. That might not help.

• 3:07:04Speaker 01

  So, so uh, I remember here's a funny one, Joe Dogs. I said, hey, man, we gotta be nonchalant. We're gonna be out here doing all this stuff. I was like, hey, uh, wear, wear something that doesn't attract a lot of attention. Yeah, yeah. Not the way he dressed. You walk out there with a shirt that says, F that bitch.

• 3:07:22Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:07:23Speaker 01

  In all caps. And I'm like, that's low key? All right.

• 3:07:26Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, who knows what he'd told her before that?

• 3:07:29Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  So, so it's the night before. I get there, uh, and they're having church. They're still having church. I'm banging on the door and it's weird, man. Nobody's coming. And all of a sudden Joe Dogs does that, you know, like, hey, uh, uh, we're not ready yet. And I'm like, well, why'd you call me every year?

• 3:07:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:07:46Speaker 01

  I'm not thinking nothing. I go, uh, he tells me to take a probate, which would be somebody on probation or they call them prospects. You're not a full patch member yet. You're, you've advanced from hang around status. You're trying to become a full patch member. So he says, hey, take probate, Obi. Y'all go get something to eat. So we went down to the restaurant, got a couple of drinks, something to eat, came back. And I go into the clubhouse. And when I go in the clubhouse, I've been in that thing like umpteen times, I don't know. There's one door I'd never been in. Now, for the listeners that may not know, um, at least with this chapter, if you weren't a patch member, which I wasn't, um, you're not allowed to touch the door. You're not allowed to touch the phone. But they're giving you drinks for free, right?

• 3:08:31Speaker 01

  I had been asked, I'd actually been told that I need to become an outlaw. Um, but I painted it as like, I travel all over the country, man. I can't have that,

• 3:08:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:08:40Speaker 01

  that bullseye on my back, you know, but I'm very humbled by that kinda thing. Um, but, so I go in there and at this point in the case, it's been a year and a half. I'm a year and a half in. And my closest relationship is Scott Town. My second closest relationship is at point, is the enforcer who goes by, who went by the street name Clothesline. His real name's Brian Delavega. So that was my second closest relationship. My third closest was the president, Joe Dogs, and then it just trickles down from there. But by this time, I've been all over the country. I've been to Sturgis. I've been to, you know, Daytona, wherever. Riding all over the place. So I've met outlaws all over, actually I've met outlaws from all over the world.

• 3:09:22Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:09:23Speaker 01

  And uh, they were actually recruiting myself in Scott Town, cause I was bigger then too. Uh, but it's, Boston's a little weird because Boston in North is Hells Angel territory. Boston in South was Outlaws territory and they were arch rivals. And then you get to Cape Cod and Hells Angels had a chapter there.

• 3:09:44Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:09:45Speaker 01

  So the outlaws were looking to set up a chapter in Cape Cod, but they wanted to fill it with big, strong dudes that can handle themselves.

• 3:09:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:09:52Speaker 01

  And they were recruiting, recruiting us for that, you know? Um, so, uh, I go into the clubhouse. Door shuts behind me. Uh, dead bolts, uh, steel frame door.

• 3:10:05Speaker 00

  The door you'd never been in?

• 3:10:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no. This is, this is just the entry door.

• 3:10:08Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:10:08Speaker 01

  Right. So if you, if you get inside, you'll see that they've meld, uh, welded metal hooks to the steel frame of the door and put a steel bar across it. So that's gonna, uh, from a breacher standpoint, it's gonna be a little harder. It'd be tougher to breach.

• 3:10:21Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:10:22Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm in there, I'm having some drinks and I'd been there, like I said, maybe 20 times. Who knows? There's one door I'd never been in. Uh, and Clothesline, my second closest friend, says, uh, he's not a friend, right? Friend. Uh, he liked Scott Callaway. I don't think he likes Scott Payne too much. But he says, hey Tex, can I talk to you for a minute? Or he says, do you got a minute? Either can I talk to you for a minute? You got a minute? I'm like, yeah. So as I'm walking, he grabs an ashtray and a lighter and, or he tells somebody to, and we turn in and it is a very tight stairwell. It's a very, to call it a basement down there is being very generous. More like a cellar.

• 3:11:03Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:11:03Speaker 01

  Cross space. I couldn't stand up straight in it, but it's a northeastern home, kinda split level.

• 3:11:07Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:11:08Speaker 01

  And as I'm walking in, Chocolate Scott, another member, comes in right behind me. Yeah, Chocolate Scott.

• 3:11:14Speaker 00

  Chocolate Scott, choc choc, Chocolate Scott.

• 3:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they call him Chocolate Scott or, or, or, or Black Scott. But the thing is, is uh, he looked like a black guy, which you can't be in the outlaws.

• 3:11:24Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:11:25Speaker 01

  You can't be.

• 3:11:26Speaker 00

  I'm guessing, I was assuming he did.

• 3:11:27Speaker 01

  So he said he was,

• 3:11:28Speaker 00

  He semi looked like one.

• 3:11:29Speaker 01

  He said, he said he was Indians, but they named him Chocolate Scott.

• 3:11:31Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. That would be my name.

• 3:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I I follow as soon as I turn in behind clothesline and Chocolate Scott comes in right behind me, I know something's not right. And now it's really tight and you get down there. It was a little bit of a false start because there was something down there that that another member of Veg did not want me to see. And they come down, so going down those steps, I'm already getting an adrenaline dump, like I was talking about earlier, right? We come back up, I'm not free to leave, outlaws everywhere, they're hiding whatever they needed to hide. I'm not sure what it was. But then it's like, okay, let's go back down. So I get down there and.

• 3:12:12Speaker 00

  So they take you halfway down, they take you back up?

• 3:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, they take me down.

• 3:12:15Speaker 00

  That'd be weird.

• 3:12:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it's terrible.

• 3:12:17Speaker 00

  It's almost like your surprise party, but then not ready?

• 3:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because if Veg just walks down there, he's doing this, I see him doing a movement, uh, that's like, hey, get out. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm looking, I'm looking for plastic on the floor. I saw a rope and I'm like, oh, great.

• 3:12:31Speaker 00

  You saw a rope?

• 3:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like, and I'm like, oh.

• 3:12:34Speaker 00

  And you got a feeling I'm getting out of here then?

• 3:12:36Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't.

• 3:12:38Speaker 00

  What'd you think they were gonna do?

• 3:12:40Speaker 01

  I didn't know yet, but.

• 3:12:42Speaker 00

  But even if you saw a rope?

• 3:12:43Speaker 01

  Even if I tried to leave, I mean, think about it.

• 3:12:45Speaker 00

  Like, if I see a rope at all, I never see a rope, right? Because I'm.

• 3:12:48Speaker 01

  Thirteen outlaws, but I'm, and they're, they got guns. They already showed me their guns.

• 3:12:51Speaker 00

  Oh, got it.

• 3:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm basically at gunpoint, you know? Um, so I go back up and we walk back down and that's when we get down there and Clothesline says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. Because he's the enforcer. And he says, um, I need you to take all your clothes off, everything, boots and everything.

• 3:13:11Speaker 00

  And would you have on boots or sneakers?

• 3:13:12Speaker 01

  I had boots. Um, and, uh, he said, I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, your address, your wife's name. He goes, I'm not gonna ask for your kids' names, even though I can find them out if I need to. And he goes, everything, social security, everything. I said, okay, but you can hear my voice already because I'm having an adrenaline dump. My voice is higher, my throat's tighter, I'm hearing that, I'm hearing that underwater auditory exclusion is going woof, woof, woof.

• 3:13:41Speaker 00

  Oh, I would be so scared.

• 3:13:43Speaker 01

  My time dilation, my eyes are clicking, everything I'm hearing is going, I need you to write down your, that's what I'm hearing.

• 3:13:50Speaker 00

  It's like on one of those boxing video games when you're about to get knocked out or whatever and you're like, and it starts to get kind of blurry.

• 3:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so.

• 3:13:58Speaker 00

  And did you write your real stuff on there?

• 3:13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no, I didn't, I didn't, but I forgot my middle name because of the stress. I forgot my middle name was, uh, Andrew.

• 3:14:08Speaker 00

  Did you just make one up?

• 3:14:09Speaker 01

  No, no, I should have, that'd been a smart thing to do, but, but then again, maybe not if they're really gonna run it.

• 3:14:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:14:15Speaker 01

  Right, so I'm like, I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, and I go, Scott Joseph Callaway, and I'm like, nope, I'm going through this rolodex in my head. It feels like it's eight minutes, it's a couple of seconds. Um, and then I remembered my initials and I remembered, oh, I'm Scott Andrew Callaway. But what I did is, like, when we talked about shootings and stuff and, and officers not knowing that, that they did it, certain things, same thing happened to me, but it was on a verbal thing. I would have never known I said this unless I didn't listen to the recording, uh, unless I listened to the recording. But while I'm forgetting my middle name, I turn and I go, and what else do you need? But it sounds like this, and what else do you need? Because I'm, I'm freaking out.

• 3:14:55Speaker 00

  All right.

• 3:14:56Speaker 01

  My, my, yeah, my diction's terrible, talking through my nose, higher pitched voice, and then I hear them yell, what do you need for that website? And I go, oh, okay, because I'm, I'm listening, I'm still listening, even though I'm freaking out, I'm like, oh, okay, they're gonna write this down, they're gonna run me, they're gonna Google me, and back then they had like a whozaret.com you could go to and run, see.

• 3:15:14Speaker 00

  Were you on there?

• 3:15:15Speaker 01

  No, no. Um, but I said, okay, I'm feeling better.

• 3:15:19Speaker 00

  Feet finder they had too.

• 3:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, so then he says, uh, and then I need you to take all your clothes off, everything.

• 3:15:25Speaker 00

  Oh, damn, they want you on feet finder.

• 3:15:26Speaker 01

  He says, he says, he says, because I gotta, he goes, I gotta check you for a wire. Here's the issue, Theo, I was wired to the hill.

• 3:15:32Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 3:15:33Speaker 01

  I had two recording devices on me and a transmitter. And I won't say where, what, but, uh.

• 3:15:39Speaker 00

  Fuck, use a damn iPhone at that point.

• 3:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, back then.

• 3:15:42Speaker 00

  No, I mean, you were one.

• 3:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.

• 3:15:44Speaker 00

  I mean, all that shit you had on you.

• 3:15:46Speaker 01

  Uh, and back then, that would've been like circa two thousand six-ish, seven-ish, they, uh, they were big on Nextels, so, you know, I know, yeah, great radio.

• 3:15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:15:58Speaker 01

  Uh, but terrible to call somebody on.

• 3:16:00Speaker 00

  Bring some milk home.

• 3:16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could key you up in Japan and it'd be like, it'd be like, what's up? Hey, you know, fine, but if I tried to call you, we couldn't hear nothing. I'm like, I don't know.

• 3:16:09Speaker 00

  It sounded Japanese.

• 3:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.

• 3:16:11Speaker 00

  So damn, so they trying to strip search you?

• 3:16:13Speaker 01

  They did.

• 3:16:14Speaker 00

  And were you wearing underpants or boxers, you think?

• 3:16:17Speaker 01

  Uh, boxer briefs.

• 3:16:18Speaker 00

  Oh, nice.

• 3:16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, the comfort of a boxer, but the support of a brief.

• 3:16:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, I got them on right now.

• 3:16:24Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 3:16:25Speaker 00

  Pretty cool.

• 3:16:27Speaker 01

  And, uh, and much like that night, they're not white, which I was happy.

• 3:16:30Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, if you'd have sold them up.

• 3:16:34Speaker 01

  Sold them up, yeah.

• 3:16:35Speaker 00

  Know what I'm saying? A little of that backbait chowder, son.

• 3:16:38Speaker 01

  Well, I tell them, I say, I say, uh.

• 3:16:40Speaker 00

  So were you joking at this point or were you scared?

• 3:16:42Speaker 01

  No, I was scared to death. I was scared, I joke about it now, but I was scared to death.

• 3:16:45Speaker 00

  So you took your clothes off?

• 3:16:46Speaker 01

  So what I did is I took, I took, uh, my coat and it was cold because it was like November, so I probably had like more than one t-shirt on, took all that off, took my boots off, and I dropped my underwear and jeans down to my ankles. I never kicked them off, so from the ankles up, I'm completely naked. They checked me for a wire.

• 3:17:06Speaker 01

  He missed one thing that was, that was, I had in my sock, it was a device, but, you know, um, so I go, he pats me down and I'm having adrenaline dump, right? Everything's slow motion, I can feel my heart beating, my, my man parts felt like they were in my throat, you know?

• 3:17:27Speaker 00

  And are they calling you [BLEEP] or anything, are they calling you names and shit?

• 3:17:30Speaker 01

  No, no, but during the talk, there's, that's a good question, because we, at least the way I was trained, you just don't want a vapor lock, you don't want to get the deer in the headlights, look, at least keep talking, at least keep trying to find something.

• 3:17:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:17:44Speaker 01

  Find a way, get some information.

• 3:17:45Speaker 00

  What are you doing, guys? What's this about?

• 3:17:47Speaker 01

  I did, I go, should I ask what's going on? And they're like, hey, man, this is some precautions, blah, blah, blah, and what he says to me, and he goes, trust me, man, he goes, I like you a lot. He goes, but I've got my doubts too. He said, um, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the effing mouth. And I said, I'm not, I looked at him, I said, I'm not happy. And he goes, I wouldn't be either. But what you can't see is because we know each other, even though my words may be saying one thing, what my face is saying to Clothesline is, tell me I'm okay. Tell me I'm gonna be all right. His facial expressions back to me were, it's okay. But I was in fact undercover and I was wired and if he found it, I don't know what's gonna happen. So I pull my pants back up, I think I'm putting my boots on, and he grabs a piece of clothing and it had something in it.

• 3:18:32Speaker 01

  And he says, I'm not gonna find anything in here I don't want to, like some pictures of my old lady, and he laughs and he goes, and I go, I hope not. Now I'm standing there, can't stand up straight, I'm on the wall, and I'm watching him knead this piece of clothing with his hands, he's doing this. And I know circa that year, what our equipment was and all that stuff, if, if, he, he would have felt it. Now, uh, he misses it, he looks right at it, he misses it, and even while he's searching it, I don't know I do it, but you can hear me, because I'm just standing there and you can hear me go, huh, because I'm like, what am I gonna do?

• 3:19:12Speaker 01

  Right, so here's the thing, um, he misses it, he hands me back my stuff, I immediately go into joking, because that's not only me, it's also a defense mechanism when you're scared, right?

• 3:19:26Speaker 00

  Been joking my whole life.

• 3:19:27Speaker 01

  Cracking, right, cracking jokes like, like I said, I'm glad I didn't wear white underwear.

• 3:19:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:19:33Speaker 01

  You know, and, uh, and we go back in the business.

• 3:19:35Speaker 00

  You just keep saying that, glad I didn't wear white, you just keep glitching, like, glad I didn't wear a pointer. And it's like, what the fuck is?

• 3:19:42Speaker 01

  What's wrong with him? He's a robot.

• 3:19:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Bring in Choco Stain or whatever that guy's name was.

• 3:19:47Speaker 01

  Chocolate Scott.

• 3:19:48Speaker 00

  Chocolate Scott.

• 3:19:49Speaker 01

  Um, so people always ask me, what would you have said if Clothesline would have found it? And I say, well, I remember it like it was yesterday. It also helps that I teach it all over the place and I still relive it all the dagum time. Um, so there's really little air, room for error there as far as exaggerating and stuff. So I, uh, or remembering it wrong, I.

• 3:20:13Speaker 01

  I said, man, I remember it like it was yesterday. Maybe my first response would have been, I don't know, some pictures, if he said, what is this? Maybe I would have said, I don't know, some pictures of you, old lady. As a joke, because he already threw that line to me, you know, am I going to find anything in here? Uh, the only other thing that I had in my head, and again, I remember like it's yesterday. I would have looked at him and said, the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and we can, I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court. Or all hell's going to break loose. The problem is, is that would have been a bluff on my part. Cause as far as I knew, every time I'd been in that clubhouse, my cover team couldn't hear me. Whether it's equipment, walls, whatever, I mean, it's 2026 and I've got first net and I can walk into a building and I can't get out. You know, and I'm like, I don't, so it's above my pay grade, but for as far as I knew.

• 3:20:58Speaker 00

  I can really get sent in there.

• 3:20:59Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, they had surveillance, you know?

• 3:21:01Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 3:21:02Speaker 01

  But, but, uh, as far as I knew, they can never hear me. That night, at the end of the shift, you know, you go meet somewhere predetermined location and I'm turning over my recording equipment to the case team and whatever. Maybe they're giving me more money for the next day or whatever, and they do a debrief. Well, when I got there that night, what I found out was, is that the first two guys covering me were a part of the main case team. It was a Sergeant Higginbottom from Massachusetts State Troopers. Uh, everybody called him Higgy and then Detective Cummings, uh, from Brockton PD. And because they had known me for a year and a half or a little more, uh, whatever happened at that first interaction with Joe Dogs at the door.

• 3:21:47Speaker 01

  It made them think something was up and they had pulled close enough or whatever. They were able to hear everything. When they heard me getting stripped, um, of course they can hear that I'm scared because they know my voice, right? They're radioing back to Boston saying, hey, anybody now get down here. And as far, the way I was told is everybody was coming, blue lights and siren, um, down there. Uh, and, and they didn't hit it. They, they went ahead and they had a plan because they've been in that clubhouse on, on other law enforcement activity. And they know how it's set up and they knew how that door was fortified. So their plan, they, they put their vest on everything and their plan was if they felt like it was time to pull the trigger to save me or whatever. They were going to drive the van into the cinder block wall beside the door to kind of breach, breach the wall.

• 3:22:30Speaker 00

  So you're standing there, that's what you're thinking, if he, if he knows what's going on.

• 3:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:22:34Speaker 00

  That's what, those are your two plans of action and they, and.

• 3:22:39Speaker 01

  And they're out there waiting on, I mean.

• 3:22:40Speaker 00

  And your case team is out there.

• 3:22:42Speaker 01

  Listening.

• 3:22:42Speaker 00

  Is out there listening and there's help on the way.

• 3:22:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:22:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:22:46Speaker 01

  Because clothesline didn't find it and also because that case team, uh, Higginbottom and Cummings, they knew me and they didn't pull the trigger. They were like, hang on, he's still okay, he's still okay.

• 3:22:58Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:22:58Speaker 01

  So we go out that night and, and it's me, Joe Dogs and Scott Town and I am livid. I'm raising hell, you know, and even Joe Dogs is like, Tex, you gotta understand, this has happened to other brothers, other people where everybody shows up and it's just, you know, we're the only people there and everybody else is an undercover, you know, and I played it off. I'm like, I'm like, who the hell would spend that kind of time and money and try to, you know?

• 3:23:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:23:20Speaker 01

  Besides us, you know, besides me, uh, but I go back, I probably sleep maybe 30 minutes that night. I go and meet everybody, uh, I think it was outside of IHOP. I hand out the radios and I tell them where we're going to go and it's pretty comical on recording because I say, all right, we're going back up to the West Gate Mall in Brockton and Chocolate Scott starts bitching. He goes, man, I live right next to there. I could have slept another 40 minutes.

• 3:23:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:23:46Speaker 01

  And Joe Dogs, Joe Dog starts, he goes, you guys are the lazy, he goes, you guys, let me get it right. Yeah. He goes, you guys are the laziest bunch of damn criminals I've ever met in my entire life, you know? And I'll even bust into, I'll go, hey, I thought I left my wife at home. Can you stop complaining, you know?

• 3:24:04Speaker 00

  Chocolate Scott.

• 3:24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So we, uh, we go, we do the deal and one truck pulls up, um.

• 3:24:10Speaker 00

  It's fake drugs?

• 3:24:11Speaker 01

  No, it's real.

• 3:24:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:24:12Speaker 01

  It's real drugs. Uh, so I mean, they're, they're smelling the weed.

• 3:24:15Speaker 00

  You must have a good budget up there then.

• 3:24:17Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know where the case team got it. It might've, it's probably evidence from another case.

• 3:24:22Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:24:23Speaker 01

  And it gets signed out, but can you imagine if we lost that? FBI loses 50 kilos of cocaine. Are you kidding me? So yeah, snipers are up and everything. So, uh, the trucks back up, the undercovers, Joe Dogs on the truck, OB's on the truck. We're covering stuff. They're pulling surveillance, you know, and just like normal surveillance, I mean, they got people going, I've been burnt, I've been burnt. There's a guy staring at me, calm down, dude.

• 3:24:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:24:45Speaker 01

  You know, and if a cop shows up, let us know, we're going to pull the trucks away. And we pulled off the deal and then I went and paid everybody.

• 3:24:52Speaker 00

  So y'all did the deal?

• 3:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it went, it went across. They got to meet Manny. Joe Dogs wanted to meet Manny, who was of course was an undercover, but he is a Hispanic guy that did all kinds of cartel stuff.

• 3:25:03Speaker 00

  Shout out Manny.

• 3:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Shout out Manny, man. Uh, Martin Suarez, he's actually got a book out too.

• 3:25:07Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 3:25:08Speaker 01

  They just, and it's, it's, it's.

• 3:25:10Speaker 00

  Got to check it out, Martin Suarez.

• 3:25:11Speaker 01

  Martin Suarez.

• 3:25:12Speaker 00

  Um, you do the deal.

• 3:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this is, uh, we get up the next day and, uh, like I said, we do the deal. And then that night, maybe I slept a little bit, you know?

• 3:25:24Speaker 00

  I'm going to need a massage after all, just hearing all it is.

• 3:25:27Speaker 01

  And then I fly home and I get, I missed my flights, they're, they're delayed, canceled, whatever. And then I go home to, uh, when I landed in McAllen, I drove straight to the house. I brushed my teeth, changed my shirt, loaded up my daughters, my wife and my mother-in-law. And we went to the Rio Grande Valley FBI Christmas party for Laredo, Brownsville and McAllen offices. And I was Santa Claus for the kids. After being stripped in a basement at gunpoint about two nights earlier.

• 3:25:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and I don't, I don't stop. So what, so what happens? If you fast forward a little bit, now we're doing all this stuff. We're still getting more things. We got the big dope deal. I'm getting trust here. During that case, a, a, a president of the Hells Angels was murdered. Uh, riding down the road, we knew that it was a green truck with Florida plates. We knew that we had outlaws from Florida up there and, uh, the case kept going. And eventually I end up down in Daytona at a world run. And by this point, I'm kind of a zombie, um, because my MO always was, I'm a workaholic.

• 3:26:35Speaker 01

  I get it honestly from my parents, but my, my MO always was like, look, if I can be above average, or if I can, on the squad that I'm on as a case agent, or if I can have some good cases and good sources, maybe that lets my management not be able to say no to me. Like, you know, hey, you're a top producer, Scott, so you can't say, no, you can't go on that SWAT call out or that SWAT school or that undercover or that undercover school. Um, but what I was doing to myself is I was taking the warrior mentality, which I think is imperative for the line of work.

• 3:27:08Speaker 00

  The warrior mentality?

• 3:27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the warrior mentality. Uh, and I think that's imperative, but I was applying it to every situation in my life. So I was not taking days off because I didn't want management to get mad. I was not sleeping hardly at all. I got to the point to where I was drinking, I wasn't a big energy drink guy, um.

• 3:27:25Speaker 00

  But you were huffing them, huh?

• 3:27:26Speaker 01

  Well, no, what it was is I was drinking like a pot of coffee and taking hydroxy cuts with a fedron in them and I was still falling asleep. So I get down to Daytona, we've got murders that have happened. We get, we've had Sturgis where I arrived and the day I arrived, uh, the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws. Point blank range. It was, I think it was two patched, one probate.

• 3:27:47Speaker 00

  And Sturgis that happened?

• 3:27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Sturgis and then, um, and then two, two, what they were referred to as old ladies. Um, and it was some serious wounds, like people were paralyzed and stuff. Um, it's just dangerous and.

• 3:28:00Speaker 00

  Put them on a gold wing, you know?

• 3:28:01Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, you know, uh, hopefully they turned out, uh, okay. Um, but so they got all that going on and now we're winding, we're kind of winding down towards the end of the case. Uh, so I didn't know, you're still going, but I'm in Daytona and again, by this time, here's my cocktail. I woke up one morning, I could still feel the whiskey and eggs swishing in my belly. I felt like a piece of trout. I'm like, all right, this is it. I'm working out. So I did like an in-room workout, something like a P90X kind of deal. I'm doing pushups, situps, squats, burpees, mountain climbers. Uh, and, but before I did that, by this time I wake up, I take antihistamines, decongestants, hitting an inhaler,

• 3:28:45Speaker 01

  uh, which is also a vasodilator, makes you shake and stuff, opens up your lungs. Then I drank two cups of coffee, the strongest coffee I can possibly make. And then I, uh, hit three hydroxy cuts with a fedron in them.

• 3:28:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:29:00Speaker 01

  So as I learned later on from the.

• 3:29:01Speaker 00

  You're a damn jet ski.

• 3:29:02Speaker 01

  Well, from the, from, from what the doctors told me, they go, uh, Scott, that is a cocktail for an anxiety attack. And that's what happened. I started working out and all that shit hit me and I was so beat down, like I started hyperventilating. Um, I mean, it's humid and it's, it's Daytona, you know? But I'm in there, but whatever. I came up and I forgot all about combat breathing. I forgot about, you know, some people call it, what is it like four?

• 3:29:27Speaker 00

  Box breathing?

• 3:29:27Speaker 01

  Box breathing, same thing, you know? I forgot about a paper bag. I just start, I turn as wide as your shirt and an undercover knocks on the door. He was, he was the guy that was playing the truck driver and it just, he sees me and I'm just pouring sweat out of every pore. Wide as your shirt, my lips are all tight and he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't think so. So we start talking. What I should have done is said, I don't feel good. I think I'm heading home, but I didn't. I took a nap. I got up, self-medicated, went back out with the outlaws. Mongols were there, fights breaking out, all kinds of stuff. And, uh, but when I flew home from that trip, I didn't know it, but my body was already done.

• 3:30:07Speaker 01

  They wanted to expand the case because the guy that was now went by the road named Hillbilly, who I knew through the case and he liked me and I liked him. Um, he was the Southeast Regional President at that point. And they, and they wanted me to come down to, they wanted the Boston not to take the case down and for me to move to Florida and patch under Hillbilly.

• 3:30:29Speaker 00

  Dude, I don't care if you're meeting damn Sam Elliott from Mask, bro.

• 3:30:32Speaker 01

  Love that role.

• 3:30:33Speaker 00

  Dude, I love.

• 3:30:34Speaker 01

  I've always loved him as a biker better than anything else.

• 3:30:36Speaker 00

  It was a good role, but damn man, they keep pushing yourself out there like.

• 3:30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I wasn't smart and, and I mean, I lied.

• 3:30:43Speaker 00

  And I'm not judging you, man.

• 3:30:44Speaker 01

  No, I'm just saying, I lied to safeguard. Like I took the psychological test and I lied. I knew I was exhausted. I knew I didn't know how to relax anymore.

• 3:30:51Speaker 00

  Even as, cause it's almost like I'm reading the story and it's like, you know, it's like, oh man, it's, it's just, that's a harrowing. It's harrowing and it reminds me of times that I think a lot of us, uh, and probably a lot of listeners can relate to when they just, you know, just this thing, I gotta keep going.

• 3:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:31:06Speaker 00

  And at what cost?

• 3:31:07Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter what you, you could be a doctor, you could be whatever.

• 3:31:09Speaker 00

  Yes, for sure. That's what I'm saying.

• 3:31:10Speaker 01

  You can put, yeah, you can, you can, you can wear yourself out. So what happens is I go home, uh, I sleep, the first day I probably slept 20 hours. I wasn't depressed, I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like.

• 3:31:24Speaker 01

  For the rest of the week, uh, I slept over 16 hours a day. So come Friday, a, I, I still love this guy. I don't think he loves me anymore. It is what it is. Uh, but we were friends at that point and he calls me and my, again, country. He's like, he goes, how you doing country? And that was all he said. And I said, I'm not doing too good. So for the next hour, we talk on the phone. I'm explaining to him everything's going on. And he basically let me convince myself, I need to call safeguard. So I called and I knew one of the psychologists personally and I called and I said, hey, uh, I don't know what's going on, man. I'm 30 something years old. I'm, I'm crashing. I don't know what's happening.

• 3:32:04Speaker 01

  Um, so they came out and did a onsite. In other words, I didn't have to fly to them. They flew to me. They did the test. I answered it honestly.

• 3:32:12Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:32:12Speaker 01

  Um, and, uh, I got put on timeout, but what they did is they said, and by timeout, I mean no more undercover for at least six months. But what they did is they said, hey, for the purpose, for this case specifically, we'll let you stay on the phone. So I make a ruse. I'd already told him that I'd gotten married. So I'd make up a story that, hey, me and my wife are getting divorced. Her family's in El Paso. I gotta re, I gotta get this house finished. I gotta relocate her and the kids out there. Cause I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror again, if I didn't.

• 3:32:44Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:32:45Speaker 01

  And you got, you got fathers, Scott Towns, a loving father, four daughter. You got, and they're like, they all, they're like, oh yeah. Oh, we got it, man. I said, but as soon as I get them there, I'm coming north. I'm sick of this heat.

• 3:32:55Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:32:55Speaker 01

  So we just kept talking and during that, there was one other guy that we didn't get, but he was calling me. And he was like, he'd just got out of prison recently and he was an outlaw and he's like, hey, man, I heard about, you know, we'd met before. Scott Town introduced us, but he's like, I got a Hummer. I got this $100,000 BMW I need to get rid of. And he starts talking about cocaine and he's like, hey, um, you know what kind of business I'm in? I said, nah, I can maybe take a guess. And he goes, I'm into that magic powder. And I said, the what? And he said, yeah.

• 3:33:23Speaker 00

  Oh, cocaine?

• 3:33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and he said, yeah. And he says, how much can you get me, uh, basically a kilo for? And I said, and, and he said, if you can get me a kilo at 18 apiece, I got enough to buy 10 right now. He had 180 grand ready to go. And, um, of course I called the case team and I go, do you guys want me to pursue this?

• 3:33:44Speaker 00

  And this is your friend though, right?

• 3:33:46Speaker 01

  Well, this guy I met, he wasn't like, Scott Town introduced me to him.

• 3:33:50Speaker 00

  Okay, I got it.

• 3:33:51Speaker 01

  His name was Tim Sylvia, not UFC Tim Sylvia, but.

• 3:33:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:33:54Speaker 01

  But who is a friend, uh, but Tim Sylvia, the outlaw. And, uh, so what happens is, is I brokered the deal for my truck driver and another undercover who always just, he didn't always, but by half of the case, he would sit in the passenger seat. Um, and they go, like, I'm literally in my garage in McAllen and I'm on the phone with Tim Sylvia and I'm on the phone with him. I go, he's over here and I'm, I'm guiding them in to meet each other. Well, when they meet each other, you can hear the other undercovers talking, even if you see the recording from the back of the semi truck. You can even hear me on the phone. They're calling, uh, uh, the, the truck driver calls me. He's like, text, like, hey, what's going on, man?

• 3:34:35Speaker 01

  Uh, we're calling him, Tony. Hey, Tony, man. He's like, yeah. He goes, uh, I'm here. And he goes, I'm with, he goes, what's your name again? Yeah. Tim Sylvia. He goes, tell him it's big Timmy. I go, okay. And he says, uh, they're going back and forth. He goes, he wants to talk to you. So Tim gets on the phone and I say, hey, um, you got the same vehicles? Yeah. I'd agree to pay him 21 grand. Uh, for the vehicles that I was buying from him stolen. Um, and he says, uh, I said, when are you going to report the BMW stolen? Cause I had a tracker on it. He said, Friday. I said, can you make it Saturday? I'm just trying to make it real, right? I said, can you make it Saturday? Give me one more day and it'll be in Mexico for sure. And he says, absolutely. So then I get back on the phone with the undercover and the undercover says, how much am I supposed to pay him?

• 3:35:14Speaker 01

  I said, 21 grand. So when they go to load the vehicles, uh, on the stolen vehicles onto the truck, Tim hits them and says, can you guys? Get 10 kilos at 18 apiece. And they said, yes. And that's how we ended the case. I was drawing up diagrams of all the club houses and houses I'd been in for all the SWAT teams that were going to be hitting it and stuff. Which was nerve wracking to me because I'm a tactical guy and I'm like, well, what if I get this wrong and somebody gets hurt? And then, um, also my Scott and myself, uh, with another guy had, we're creating our own motorcycle club called the Righteous Few. It had already been approved by the president, the national president of the outlaws to be the number one support club for the outlaws in the Northeast.

• 3:35:56Speaker 01

  Um, all I had to do was go back up one more time and I'd have got my cut, but you know, it is what it is.

• 3:36:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. You were also.

• 3:36:03Speaker 01

  I was done. Yeah, I was done.

• 3:36:04Speaker 00

  We weren't even being real. It would have been cool.

• 3:36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, ego wise.

• 3:36:08Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Damn, bro. This whole thing's insane.

• 3:36:12Speaker 01

  So we're taking down the case. I'm actually at an undercover school teaching. Um, I wasn't there. I'm pretty sure safeguard said I couldn't go.

• 3:36:20Speaker 00

  And this, when you're just doing stuff on the phone still. Okay. Yeah. And how do we get to the end?

• 3:36:23Speaker 01

  This is it.

• 3:36:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:36:24Speaker 01

  Because they said they were going to deliver the 10 kilos. That's going to be a reversal and that's going to be the first arrest, right? So when they show up, when Tim Sylvia shows up to deliver the Hummer and to get whatever SWAT team's going to take him down, right? He's got the money and all this stuff. SWAT team's going to take him down and that starts all the arrests happening. Um, so I can't tell you what time it was in Nevada where I was at versus what time it was, I don't know, about three hours behind or whatever. Um, from Massachusetts, but I go back to my room and these are long nights at the UC school, like I told you. I go back to my room and my phone's chirping and I listen and it's a message from Scott Town. And I chirp him up and I go, hey, what's up?

• 3:37:08Speaker 01

  And he says, he's all raspy voice. He goes, hey, I just want you to know, somebody just called me. Your truck drivers, Tony and that other dude and big Scotty, big T, uh, big Timmy, they got locked up. And I'm like, wow, okay. And then he goes, I just wanted to let you know. And I said, well, you know, they're not up there for something for me. I said, but sometimes they do things on the side for themselves. He said, listen, I'm gonna go to something to affect it like this. He said, listen, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna get showered up. And I'm gonna find out what's going on and I'm gonna call you back. And I said, okay. And our last words to each other, he said, I love you, brother. And I said, I love you too. And about 40 minutes later, a SWAT team hit his house and he went to prison. They all pled guilty.

• 3:37:51Speaker 00

  You ever talk to him again?

• 3:37:58Speaker 01

  It's very possible. I can either confirm or deny.

• 3:38:00Speaker 00

  Fair.

• 3:38:00Speaker 01

  But since, uh, since, since the New York Times bestseller and being on a podcast or two, yeah.

• 3:38:15Speaker 01

  The bond was real.

• 3:38:17Speaker 00

  The bond was real.

• 3:38:17Speaker 01

  Was real.

• 3:38:18Speaker 00

  Like, how happy is the ending? Like, I'm just wondering, like.

• 3:38:22Speaker 01

  It's pretty good so far.

• 3:38:23Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 3:38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty good. Yeah, really good.

• 3:38:25Speaker 00

  So you guys still communicate often?

• 3:38:28Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 3:38:29Speaker 00

  Like in what type of manner do you feel like?

• 3:38:33Speaker 01

  Call me, whatever. I will tell you that Chocolate Scott started trolling me and he'll probably get a kick out of this.

• 3:38:39Speaker 00

  He did?

• 3:38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. He started all of a sudden, you know how somebody finds you on Instagram and they start liking all your stuff? And it's like from six months prior, but you start getting all these dings, ding, ding, ding. Like they liked your reel, liked your, well, it was like, this guy sucks. Screw you.

• 3:38:54Speaker 00

  Oh, Chocolate Scott. Chocolate Scott's like that, dude.

• 3:38:59Speaker 01

  So he.

• 3:38:59Speaker 00

  Chocolate Scott's be Chocolate Scott, you know?

• 3:39:02Speaker 01

  So.

• 3:39:03Speaker 00

  I almost wish I knew him, actually.

• 3:39:05Speaker 01

  I know. So here's the thing. I, he's like, he's like hitting me with like, yeah, you suck. You F this, you know, this and the other. And I saw, and it was like, I could kind of see the picture, but I saw that it was doom 666. And I'm like, who the hell is it? I don't respond to negative stuff, but I'm like, cause most of the time you're arguing with an algorithm anyway. It's some AI you're arguing against, not a real person. Yeah.

• 3:39:24Speaker 00

  Some pervert.

• 3:39:25Speaker 01

  But I click on it and I open it up and it's Chocolate Scott. And it, and for his Instagram, it says, F you Scott Payne, you big bitch.

• 3:39:32Speaker 00

  Damn. So he really, but he's got a right to be pissed, right?

• 3:39:36Speaker 01

  I know, man, but I could, I giggled because I could totally see him high laughing, typing that stuff, you know? Uh, but the last thing he put out there that, uh, that before I blocked him, uh, is he put, he actually validated me. Cause a lot of people are like, oh, you're making this up. I'm like, dude, pull, pull the court records, pull the reports. It's in there. The recordings that happened. I want you to tell you, I'm not making it up. It's there. But he put, he put, he would go, he found another one. He goes, I've seen this guy naked in the basement. Not much there. All right? So I so wanted to respond because the first thing I was going to say is you're still picturing me naked in the basement from 2006?

• 3:40:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:40:16Speaker 01

  Must've been tough in prison. Second thing I would have said is I don't find you or clothesline attractive.

• 3:40:23Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 3:40:23Speaker 01

  The third thing I would have said is it was very, very cold in that basement.

• 3:40:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, it's in Massachusetts.

• 3:40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the fourth thing I would have said is I thought I was getting ready to die and that's a whole new level of shrinkage. The last thing I was concerned about is what I look like naked. So.

• 3:40:39Speaker 00

  Oh, I can't even stay erect around damn broken glass. You know, I hear a window shatter. Dude, I won't get hard for a month. That's just who I am. My dad was the same way.

• 3:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:52Speaker 00

  Um, did Towns go to jail?

• 3:40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. We, we pretty much, we pretty much dismantled the whole, uh, taunting chapter. I don't know if it's back up, but yeah, we pretty much got everybody.

• 3:41:02Speaker 00

  Have you seen him since he went in?

• 3:41:03Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 3:41:03Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 3:41:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:41:04Speaker 00

  How long will he be in for?

• 3:41:05Speaker 01

  He's out.

• 3:41:06Speaker 00

  Oh, he's out now?

• 3:41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's out.

• 3:41:07Speaker 00

  So you haven't seen him since he got out either?

• 3:41:08Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 3:41:09Speaker 00

  Okay, got it.

• 3:41:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:41:10Speaker 00

  How long has he been out for?

• 3:41:11Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I don't know if he did six or eight. And let's just say, I think we arrested, I think we took that case down in 2008.

• 3:41:19Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 3:41:19Speaker 01

  But, uh,

• 3:41:22Speaker 01

  Let's see if it says.

• 3:41:23Speaker 00

  The Outlaws MC Taunton chapter is no longer active, having been effectively dismantled following a major federal sweep.

• 3:41:28Speaker 01

  Woo-hoo.

• 3:41:29Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 3:41:32Speaker 00

  Do you get to miss a lot of things?

• 3:41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41:35Speaker 00

  Like a lot of family stuff?

• 3:41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41:37Speaker 00

  You missed a lot of like birthdays?

• 3:41:39Speaker 01

  I did pretty good with that, but I missed like some recitals and stuff like that.

• 3:41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:41:43Speaker 01

  Or Father's Day, you know, because it might be putting on the undercover school. It might be being on the, on the case because like I said, you kind of go where the case takes you. If you get an opening to go to Sturgis with the, I mean, yeah, that's.

• 3:41:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's all, it's just so, it's so fascinating, you know, because life itself, you're kind of, we're all trying to be ourselves and, and then to go into life and then go into another life, kind of, you know? Like an other exist, you know, like.

• 3:42:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, my big, uh, my big, uh, I guess my, my Clark Kent walking into a phone booth and coming out of Superman is I, I have a cross on my necklace. And before I would go undercover, I'd take the cross off and it'd either be, it would either be a Norse, you know, like Thor's hammer, but for most of it, it was just a skull. But that was kind of my thing. Like I'd go back in, I'd take the skull off, put the cross back on. It was kind of like me saying, trying, trying to leave it there and now I'm Scott again, but truthfully, the, the, the job creeped in all the time. I mean, how's it not going to when I'm on a undercover call and my daughter's chasing me through the house and I'm trying not to let her hear me cuss because I'm on the phone with a bad guy, you know?

• 3:42:54Speaker 00

  Sure. Are, are you ever, before you go Scott, are you ever worried about somebody coming back from the past, something coming back to haunt this?

• 3:43:02Speaker 01

  It could happen, yeah.

• 3:43:04Speaker 00

  Retaliation?

• 3:43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to be a tough guy or nothing like that, but I do have a belief system and, and for me, um, I mean, I wouldn't want any family members or anything like that to be in fear. Usually for me, your best defense is a good offense. That's me. Like just being a uniformed cop. How many people in your town do you think you arrest in a year? And do you, I mean, they're not all like felony, they back out.

• 3:43:32Speaker 00

  That's a good point.

• 3:43:32Speaker 01

  So you, how many times as a uniformed cop do you go to the mall or to a movie theater or to the grocery store and you run into people that you like, it might've been somebody you had to fight.

• 3:43:40Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:43:41Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 3:43:42Speaker 00

  I never thought about that.

• 3:43:42Speaker 01

  And I just, I just walk right up to them. That's me. I'd see them and I'd go, if they're, if they're eyeballing, I'm not even gonna let them to plot. I'm just gonna go right up and go.

• 3:43:49Speaker 00

  Good game.

• 3:43:50Speaker 01

  Hey, now I'm gonna be like, brother, how, how are you doing? When did you get out? How's the family, man? Hey, are you clean right now? Are you good? How you doing? Listen, as long as you're on that, up and, you know, the straight and narrow, on the right path, I'll help you. And I have, I've actually, people that I put in jail, that I infiltrated, put in jail, but, but they've taken a turn for the better. I, at their sentencing, I wrote an acknowledgement letter or a letter for their character.

• 3:44:15Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:44:16Speaker 01

  So they, and they got probation instead of going to jail. So that's not a, I mean.

• 3:44:20Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:44:20Speaker 01

  It's, you know, it's, if you get, for me, for the most part, what I've found, because I do really make friendships. I mean, you're creating relationships, but you're betraying them a little, I mean, you're gonna be betraying them if you're undercover.

• 3:44:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:44:33Speaker 01

  But it's almost like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon. You got the sheepdog and you got the coyote and it's Ralph and Sam and they clock in in the morning and all day the coyote's trying to steal a sheep and all day the sheep, the sheepdog's beating the crap out of them trying to get, and at the end of the day, they clock out. See you in the morning, Sam. See you in the morning, Ralph. It's just, you know, I, I, I've been told, I've been told this, if you were a biker and, and you were a part of the club and you snitched, they'd never forgive me, but I was just doing my job. So you, you see that a lot. Professional snitch. No, I'm not a snitch. I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a bonded law enforcement officer and we had reports of you doing criminal

• 3:45:16Speaker 01

  stuff and I infiltrated you and, or somebody did and we found evidence of that criminal stuff. If you're not doing anything wrong, don't worry about it.

• 3:45:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, do, do they ever, oh, this, this is kind of like a question, almost like the movies. Do they ever bring retired agents in for like, you know, they ever try and get you back out there for one more show?

• 3:45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but you would be, if you're a retired agent.

• 3:45:38Speaker 00

  Cause you're retired now.

• 3:45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could come back in as a source. That's a, that's a whole different ballgame though.

• 3:45:43Speaker 00

  But they're never like, Scott, we gotta wheel you out one more time here, you know?

• 3:45:46Speaker 01

  Not now. I'm overt now, man. You know what I mean?

• 3:45:50Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, people know now.

• 3:45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Anybody ever told you you look like Matt Damon? You know what, as a matter of fact, the other day, somebody did. And as soon as they pulled up the picture, I went, dang, you know?

• 3:46:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:46:01Speaker 01

  Who would've thunk it? Uh, no, I mean, no, I mean, it, it could happen, but once I was done, I mean, obviously, I mean, you do Rolling Stone magazine and then this and yeah.

• 3:46:11Speaker 00

  Would you do it again?

• 3:46:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Absolutely, man. But you know, okay, they always say, man, you'll know when it's time to retire. I thought I was gonna work to 57. I thought I'd be the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee and maybe I could extend, you know, because uh, that's a skill set that is, that, that a lot of people don't have, you know? In the bureau as, as opposed to being a tactical instructor. I mean, there's a lot of tactical instructors, but I thought I was gonna stay till 57. But after the base case, I was like, man, I had to get the back lumbar. I got a lumbar fusion. A week and a half after lumbar fusion, I got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and everything else in my truck. And you just start thinking.

• 3:46:53Speaker 00

  She loves to torture people.

• 3:46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I like torture. You like torture? I like torture. I love. You need somebody to torture you, call me. I swear, I know that torture. But uh, the thing is, is I, I was 48 going on to 50.

• 3:47:07Speaker 01

  How many more?

• 3:47:08Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 3:47:08Speaker 01

  How many more bait? Like I can't go, I mean, if, okay, now I'm gonna look like a pedophile. Oh, there's an old dude buying beer for young boys and, and he's teaching them widespread. No, I'm not, but how can I infiltrate 17 year olds?

• 3:47:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:47:21Speaker 01

  You know, and you just start realizing, just one day it hit me and it was right after the base case. It was in February. We took it down January of 2020. February of 2020, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. We're putting on training. We're training online covered employees for domestic terrorism. And I don't know what we were discussing about. I don't know what it was. I know it was my birthday. Um, but I just, this overwhelming feeling hit me in the face like a brick. I can't remember what we were talking about, but I remember like everything just kind of going, calming down and me saying this in my head, I'm satisfied with my career. Never said it before. Not saying I've done everything, but if I do something now, I'm just starting right back over. I'm like, I think, holy cow.

• 3:48:03Speaker 00

  I'm okay.

• 3:48:04Speaker 01

  I think I'm okay.

• 3:48:05Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 3:48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:48:06Speaker 00

  Well, Scott Payne, man.

• 3:48:10Speaker 01

  Boom. Big country. It's medium country.

• 3:48:12Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for coming in, man.

• 3:48:14Speaker 01

  Scott Payne, bitch.

• 3:48:15Speaker 00

  Codename Pale Horse. That's his book.

• 3:48:20Speaker 00

  How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis.

• 3:48:23Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, and the paperback's out now, sorry.

• 3:48:25Speaker 00

  Oh, nice. And the paperback is out now. Is that true, Scott?

• 3:48:28Speaker 01

  Yes, true.

• 3:48:29Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for, uh, for being here today with us, man. Thanks for sharing your stories. Uh, yeah, dude, what a fascinating, um, existence you've had so far, man. We appreciate your time, brother. Thank you so much. Give our best to your family, man. And, uh.

• 3:48:42Speaker 01

  Will do.

• 3:48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Scott Payne, thank you, bro.

• 3:48:45Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.